Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Neighbor Speaks Out

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: Savannah Guthrie Mom Missing: Neighbor Speaks Out
Date: March 29, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests: Jeff Lemay (Neighbor), Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Expert), Terry Wynn Yates (Master Locksmith), Brian Fitzgibbons (Security Expert), Todd Shipley (Cybercrime Expert)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nancy Grace investigates the mysterious disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, mother of Savannah Guthrie, by delving into eyewitness accounts, forensic evidence, and professional analysis. A key segment features neighbor Jeff Lemay, who provides first-hand insight from the night Nancy Guthrie went missing. The episode also dissects unusual ridges found in front of Guthrie’s home, explores the possible use of a lock pick, and scrutinizes the “porch guy” video for fresh leads.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Neighbor’s Account: The Night of the Disappearance

[02:41–28:16]

• Guest: Jeff Lemay (Neighbor, lives four homes away)

• Routine Encounters:

  • Lemay describes Nancy Guthrie as a pleasant, wonderful neighbor encountered frequently on dog walks.

• Community Response:

  • Shocked by the sudden influx of law enforcement and search/rescue volunteers after Guthrie’s disappearance.
  • “A large response of sheriff's department, a volunteer crew of community members who do rescue in the mountains..." (06:20, Jeff Lemay)

• Unusual Canine Behavior:

  • Lemay’s dogs, normally sound sleepers, woke him in the early morning hours on the night of the disappearance (Jan 31st) and another date under investigation (Jan 11th).
    • “Our dogs are usually sound sleepers…That night, the night Mrs. Guthrie is kidnapped, your dogs get up and want to go outside. Is that correct?" (12:19, Nancy Grace)
    • “Yeah. And also some of the other evenings that we've been questioned about..." (12:33, Jeff Lemay)
    • He led the dogs to a back courtyard. On reviewing video, the dogs appear to focus intently into the distance but make no noise.

• Security Cameras & Outages:

  • Lemay provides all camera footage to law enforcement but notes limitations due to lot size and camera field of view.
  • Two of his cameras were inexplicably offline during the key nights:
    • “Two of our cameras were, ‘quote, unquote,’ offline during this time, which really surprised us.” (24:47, Jeff Lemay)

• Neighborhood Layout & Routes:

  • Dense brush and utility roads offer concealed routes through the neighborhood.
  • Old service road/cut-through was known to local school kids:
    • “There’s an abutting cul de sac towards the rear. There’s a service road that connects to that…” (18:49, Jeff Lemay)

• Suspicious Vehicle:

  • Lemay and his wife recall seeing a car parked on Escalante the Saturday before the disappearance, in a gravel cutout used by dog walkers.
    • “We noticed a vehicle... shared whatever data we had, but... it’s just something that we noticed.” (26:12, Jeff Lemay)

• Community Mood:

  • Residents feel unsettled and focused on supporting the family:
    • "You've seen the yellow ribbons, the angels on the palo verde trees, the concern... it is unsettling that something like this occurred." (27:34, Jeff Lemay)

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2. Forensic Analysis: The Ridges & Blood Trail

[28:17–36:12]

• Guest: Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics, Jacksonville State University)

• Ridges/Tire Marks:

  • Forensic photos reveal two parallel, linear ruts in front yard gravel—suggesting a narrow-wheeled device (wheelchair, wagon, or similar).
    • “You can see the composition out here... is uneven. This rock aggregate… creates quite a problem if you want to do a cast.” (29:11, Morgan)
    • “The smaller the gauge, the deeper the rut…more narrow the rut, you're going to talk about something that has a very, very tight gauge…Can you actually say that this originated from this particular item? Probably not, but it can at least put you in the ballpark.” (31:42, Morgan)

• Blood Trail:

  • Noted that blood ends at a certain point, tracks pick up at that spot—possible transfer via wheeled device.
    • “The blood ends at a certain point and those tracks pick up at that point.” (31:38, Nancy Grace)
  • Details on blood trail and ground composition:
    • “Not in that particular area… aggregate that has some kind of cement to it. So, no, you're not going to pick up anything. The best thing you can do is… photograph, photograph, photograph.” (35:35, Morgan)

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3. Entry Method: The Wrought Iron Door Lock

[38:44–42:55]

• Guest: Terry Wynn Yates (Mr. Locksmith)
• Ease of Entry:
  • The lock on Guthrie’s wrought iron door is standard and not high-security.
    • "An amateur could open that lock in minutes, a professional in seconds." (40:27, Yates)
    • "It's extremely easy to pick open. Extremely easy. And that's what we start our beginners with." (41:54, Yates)
• Tools Used:
  • Lock-pick guns are noisy, but basic or advanced lock-picking methods would defeat the lock quietly.
    • “A lockpick gun… is like bumping the lock… makes some noise… If you want to be quiet, use a regular lock pick or some more advanced methods.” (43:02, Yates)
  • Commentary on the myth of door's impenetrability:
    • “All this business about this door being impenetrable is all BS—technical legal term, right?" (42:06, Nancy Grace)
    • “Totally.” (42:14, Yates)

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4. Video Analysis: “Porch Guy” and Possible Accomplices

[43:22–46:20]

• Guest: Brian Fitzgibbons (USPA Nationwide Security)

• Porch Guy Video:

  • Crowd-sourced observations suggest headlights in the background, possibly indicating a waiting vehicle.
    • “Does this piece of video mean that there’s an accomplice? Not necessarily. However, logic tells us… leads us to think there has to be more than one person involved…” (44:19, Fitzgibbons)
    • “See him look back? I did not notice that the first time.” (44:40, Nancy Grace)
    • “Seeing this, what appears to be some communication from the perp on the porch back in the direction of what appears to be headlights going off.” (44:58, Fitzgibbons)

• Number of Accomplices:

  • Doubt cast on rumors of five accomplices, more likely two or three.
    • “…$1.2 million reward and five people associated in a conspiracy ... very unlikely they could keep things that tight.” (45:48, Fitzgibbons)
    • “I think it’s more likely that two or three were involved here, at least a second person to bring up a vehicle and one to make entry…” (45:48, Fitzgibbons)

• Neighborhood Layout and Concealment:

  • The school kid cut-through offers concealed movement from the rear.
    • “…this cut through... you would have pretty good concealment to move on foot to the southeast and gain access to Mrs. Guthrie’s property from her backyard…” (46:35, Fitzgibbons)

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5. Digital Evidence: Video Footage and Metadata

[47:09–49:56]

• Guest: Todd Shipley (Cybercrime Expert)
• Surveillance Review:
  • Critique of law enforcement’s tunnel vision on “porch guy,” missing other critical scene details (e.g., headlights/accomplice).
    • “They focused on the person in the video... and missed the fact that there was something in the background...” (48:00, Shipley)
• Data Gaps:
  • No metadata released—leaving accuracy/timeline of footage uncertain.
    • “We don’t know what that med data is related to any of these videos or any of the pictures that have been taken.” (49:56, Shipley)
• Technology Angle:
  • Suggests more video/images exist or are being recovered; information may still emerge.

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Notable Quotes

• On Community Involvement
  “I will never understand it… how many people, quote, don't want to get involved... I just want to hear at the beginning of your encounters with Mrs. Guthrie…”
  (05:00, Nancy Grace)

• On Dogs Noticing Trouble
  “This is becoming more important in my mind because your dogs don’t normally do that... The best witness I ever put on the stand was a dog.”
  (11:19, Nancy Grace)

• On Physical Evidence
  “As you begin to think about something, say for instance, like a wheelchair… you’ve got two parallel lines that are running in one specific direction… The idea here is to try to understand was it bearing weight at that particular time.”
  (31:12, Joseph Scott Morgan)

• On Lock Security
  “An amateur could open that lock in minutes, a professional in seconds… It’s not a high-security lock at all.”
  (40:27, Terry Wynn Yates)

• On Accomplices
  “I think it’s more likely that two or three were involved here, at least a second person to bring up a vehicle and one to make entry…”
  (45:48, Brian Fitzgibbons)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Neighbor Jeff Lemay’s Account: [02:41–28:16]
• Forensics on Ridges and Blood Trail: [28:17–36:12]
• Locksmith Analysis: [38:44–42:55]
• Porch Guy, Headlights & Accomplices: [43:22–46:20]
• Digital Evidence & Metadata: [47:09–49:56]

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Memorable Moments

• Nancy equates a dog’s unusual behavior to a critical alarm, recalling cases where a dog’s reaction was pivotal to solving a crime (e.g., the O.J. Simpson case).
• Joseph Scott Morgan’s breakdown of gravel evidence sheds light on why certain expected forensic techniques (like casting) failed.
• Locksmith Terry Wynn Yates calmly debunks the myth of an impenetrable lock in seconds, live on air.
• The “porch guy” video is re-examined, with Fitzgibbons and the online community identifying unexplored clues missed by investigators, highlighting the value of crowdsourced analysis.

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace expertly synthesizes neighbor testimony, forensic detail, and digital sleuthing into a multidimensional investigation of Nancy Guthrie’s disappearance. The episode underscores the importance of minute details—canine behavior, camera outages, neighborhood cut-throughs, and overlooked video backgrounds—in building a timeline and attempting to answer how and why Nancy Guthrie vanished. The tone is passionate, relentless, and deeply invested, mirroring Nancy Grace’s prosecutorial background and commitment to keeping the story alive.

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If you have any information on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, contact authorities at 800-225-5328 or anonymously at 520-882-7463.

Transcript

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Jeff Lemay]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing. One of her neighbors joins us to tell us his recollection of what went down that night and of his recollection of Mrs. Guthrie herself. Also tonight, mysterious ridges seen in the front of Nancy Guthrie's yard. What, if anything, do they mean and were they preserved? This is a careful look at the porch guy video. Does it reveal headlights over his shoulder? And tonight, was a lock pick or a lock pick gun used to penetrate Nancy Guthrie's home? And can we analyze that and use it as evidence? Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The feds are now trying to question work crews on a construction site.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

People just don't go in there and randomly dump stuff. They do have the thing broken up into grids. You have equipment that runs over the stuff to kind of pack it down. And that creates an absolute nightmare for investigators when they go out there to begin to search.

[Nancy Grace]

I'm very anxious to get to the ridges that were seen in front of Nancy Guthrie's home. Can I just see that very quickly, please? Control room. As well as what's revealed by a careful look at the porch guy lights, possibly headlights over his shoulder. But first, I want to go to a special guest joining us, a neighborhood of Nancy Guthrie's. It's Jeff Lame who woke up that night in the early morning hours and he very often passes Mrs. Guthrie on their neighborhood strolls. Mr. Lamy, thank you for being with us.

[Jeff Lemay]

For sure. For sure. Glad to be here.

[Nancy Grace]

I. You know what? I'm so glad you said that because in my world of investigating and prosecuting nothing but violent felonies for so many years, you wouldn't believe it. Mr. Lemay, of how many people, quote, don't want to get involved? They don't come forward, they don't say anything and they feel okay with that. I will never understand it. First, I'm sure the FBI has quizzed you extensively, but I just want to hear at the beginning of your encounters with Mrs. Guthrie when you would both be out strolling the neighborhood.

[Jeff Lemay]

We would see her when we were walking our dogs. She had a dog at one time also, and greet her, she was just a person who lived here, a pleasant, wonderful neighbor. And we're so saddened. Of course, saddened isn't even the word heartbroken about what's happened.

[Nancy Grace]

I guess you're also fed up with the ghouls showing up in your neighborhood in hot pants and stripper shoes to take photos in front of Mrs. Guthrie's home. It's sick. But before I go off on a tangent, that gets me nowhere and proves nothing. That night, Jeff Lamy, that night, what happened?

[Jeff Lemay]

Well, preceding the event, there were some evenings where our dogs woke up, which was highly unusual. We don't know if there's a correlation. I know the FBI and the investigators have asked for cameras and camera footage. All the neighbors have shared camera footage and any recollection they have. But the next day, we were surprised when there were helicopters above flying through the neighborhood. A large response of sheriff's department, a volunteer crew of community members who do rescue in the mountains, of hikers who came and scoured the neighborhood. And initially we were wondering what was going on. And then we found out it was our neighbor, which obviously is horrible.

[Nancy Grace]

You stated that you live four homes down from Mrs. Guthrie. Is that correct?

[Jeff Lemay]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. Now, your dogs, often, as does mine, want to go out in the middle of the night. Dee's bathroom. That night, did your dog go out?

[Jeff Lemay]

Yeah, that was where. Actually, I serve one of our dogs. I have to rouse in the morning. Is a deep sleeper. There were some nights in question where the investigators have asked us about certain evenings and if we've seen anything unusual. And once again, it could be coincidence, it could be nothing. I'm not an investigator. I'm a layperson. But the dogs did rouse, and I took them out. There's a image of me on camera. I did heard nothing or saw nothing. But, you know, animals can be, especially dogs can be hypersensitive. And we don't know if there's a correlation. We've shared it. And whether it helps with timeline or in any way, we hope it is of some value.

[Nancy Grace]

What time was that, Jeff Lame?

[Jeff Lemay]

Gosh, it was. I'm working from memory. It may have been a little bit past 1:00am

[Nancy Grace]

you know, Jeff Lame, you really hit the nail on the head. Because after everything calms down at night and everything settles and the kitchen is clean, we'll be sitting there, you know, watching something on TV maybe, and our dog, fat boy, will go insane. And then we find out, like, two minutes later a delivery was made at the front porch, or somebody then opens the back door. Maybe one of the granny nannies is coming in or out, but he hears it or smells it long before we do. So I want you to tell me again. And the reason I'm so interested, Jeff, is because I personally have investigated cases where the dog was the initial trigger that raised the first alarm. And there have been many in real life. This is one everybody knows, so I use it a lot. The O.J. simpson case, the neighbors heard the dog, Akita, issue a, as they say, plaintiff wail that they had never heard the dog do before. And this was around the time Simpson was murdering Nicole and Ron. So the dog was the first alarm. Now, I'm very curious. Tell me exactly what happened.

[Jeff Lemay]

Sure. You know, as I've mentioned, our dogs are usually sound sleepers. Full confession. When the dog woke me up to say, I've got to go outside, I was grudgingly accommodating and took the dog out to our little courtyard in the back of our house.

[Radhi Devlukia]

And.

[Jeff Lemay]

And it was unusual and it seldom happens. And we've gone back to the other dates that we've been asked about to see if there's a correlation and as mentioned, shared this information. But animals, especially dogs, can be so sensitive and kind of work on a different realm with smell, hearing, etc. And we hope it's of some help. We don't know.

[Nancy Grace]

Now, you said something was unusual. What was unusual?

[Jeff Lemay]

Oh, just waking me up at that hour. You know, that would be, you know, once again, that that's what was atypical. It actually, you know, it hasn't happened since, you know, they are usually sound sleepers, take them out before heading to bed and taking them out first thing in the morning. So this was kind of unusual. I don't know if they've heard something, smelled something, sensed something in some way. So we've obviously provided that information and I don't know if it's of help, but we. We hope it is.

[Nancy Grace]

Jeff Lame, let me throw this on you. As I've told many a jury, there is no coincidence. Criminal law, there's just not. Coincidences happen in life, but in my experience, not in criminal cases, much less a kidnap or worse, a murder. So at first I didn't understand that this was unusual. I thought your dogs wanted to go out in the middle of the night all the time like mine does. I think I was projecting, which is never a good thing for a trial lawyer to do. So this is becoming more important in my mind because your dogs don't normally do that. I would like to also share with you that the best witness I ever put on the stand and I practiced for 14 years as a fed and a violent felony prosecutor, was a dog. Best witness I ever put on the stand. That said, now this is becoming more significant because your dogs don't normally get up in the middle of the night. I thought that they did because I was projecting. But that night, the night Mrs. Guthrie is kidnapped, your dogs get up and want to go outside. Is that correct?

[Jeff Lemay]

Yeah. And also some of the other evenings that we've been questioned about. I'm working from memory again. I believe January 11th was another date that was in question. So we had this activity at that time, and human nature, we just followed it away and didn't really think about this until we were asked to review our video and then had this recollection and saw this correlation, which was very unusual.

[Nancy Grace]

So did you review your video? And what, if anything, did you see?

[Jeff Lemay]

I once again, not only reviewed it, but provided it to the sheriff's department and FBI. And once again, every neighbor has done this. I mean, there's been a. A robust, wholehearted support from everyone in this community for this investigation and have provided that data points. Once again, they can see the. Perhaps once again, I don't know. It could help with timeframe. In fact, it could. That would be a wonderful thing if it provides any value, if there was someone.

[Nancy Grace]

Did you see anything on the video from Jan.11?

[Jeff Lemay]

Just the dogs waking us up with the way our cameras are situated. And this has been, I think, a frustration is everyone seems to have a ring or some sort of system, but with the size of the lots and where the cameras are situated, they capture your home and entrance points, but they do not capture much beyond that. There's heavy, dense brush here. Cactus, palo verdes, et cetera. So part of the challenge has been you can see beautiful views of our courtyard, front door, garage, etc. But not much beyond that.

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[Jeff Lemay]

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[Nancy Grace]

Let me understand something, Jeff and of course I would have this all nailed down if I were putting you on the stand. And forgive me if I keep asking the same question over and over, but on January 11th you see nothing out in the yard, as you've just explained, where your cameras are trained. But having reviewed January 11th video at the request of the FBI, you realize that on January 11th and January 31st, both nights, your dogs uncharacteristically wanted to go outside.

[Jeff Lemay]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

And that was very atypical.

[Jeff Lemay]

Yes,

[Nancy Grace]

when they went Outside, did they? You said they went to the back or the front.

[Jeff Lemay]

It's the rear of our home, where we have a courtyard that abuts our bedroom.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, got it. Rear of home. Is there a cut, a shortcut? Do people walk that way to get toward Nancy Guthrie's home? Or could they? Could they.

[Jeff Lemay]

It is fairly dense. We can see her home, the top of her home from the rear of our house. And it is, I'm just guesstimating, maybe 150 yards away, but it is very dense. Cactus, rock, dense brush. From my layperson's perspective, it would be a challenge.

[Nancy Grace]

Now, there are. Someone had mapped it out ahead of time. There are what?

[Jeff Lemay]

Oh, and there are. There's an abutting cul de sac towards the rear. There's a service road that connects to that. You'll see, actually, it's wonderful, the graphics you're putting up where you can see how someone could walk perhaps through the service yard to a cul de sac, perhaps around and about.

[Nancy Grace]

There's a service route behind your home that leads to a cul de sac that leads to Nancy's home. Did you. Is that what I'm.

[Jeff Lemay]

Alongside her home. Alongside her home, where you would have to physically cut through someone's property, but then could lead to a cul de sac. My understanding was, years ago, school kids would use it as a kind of a way to get. Grab the school bus, and they would cut through that area. That's my understanding. But once again, directly from our home to Nancy's house, it would be. It would be. It would be rough brush now, especially in the dark.

[Nancy Grace]

So wait, I'm curious. You just said that. Guys, that video we've shown you earlier, the aerial video was from our friends at 12 News. I want to go back to the photo. I want to understand where Jeff Lemmy lives on this picture. But you stated that for a long time, school children would use a cut through the back, through the scrub, through the brush, down the service road, maybe to get to the school bus instead of going on the street. Is that correct?

[Jeff Lemay]

Sure. My understanding, this is what neighbors have told us, is people would use a service road, service cut through someone's property very slightly, and then code to a cul de sac that abuts the back of our yard, but not the.

[Nancy Grace]

And that would get you closer to Nancy's home.

[Jeff Lemay]

Perhaps someone could take a different route to her home through that. Through that avenue.

[Nancy Grace]

Got it. Now, when your dogs go out at night, Jeff, do they lead you to the back or to the front or do you lead them. My dog wakes up. He sleeps right beside me in his own little bed by the bed. I have to take him to a certain door. I lead him to a certain door because I know I can get him in more quickly if I go out that door. And it can be any time of the day or night. So did you lead the dog to the back, or did the dog lead you?

[Jeff Lemay]

Sure. So it's a courtyard that abuts the bedroom. That's pop the door open, take the dog out, and, you know it's right there. So it's the most natural point to be, and that's where we always take the dogs.

[Nancy Grace]

When your dog went out on January 31 and January 11, what did the dog do? Did it continue barking?

[Jeff Lemay]

No barking. But I saw on video the dog sort of looking off to the distance and sort of very focused for a moment. It was fascinating, actually. And then moving on to moving on. Now, once again, in my days, my fugue state past 1am I did not take note of any of this at the time and took the dog back in and went back to bed. Once again, we don't know what was occurring, but it says some information to provide, of some value, we hope, to the investigation.

[Nancy Grace]

Jeff, can you look at that overhead and tell me which home is yours as it relates to Mrs. Guthrie's?

[Jeff Lemay]

So we would be. If you leave Nancy's house, take a right, and the immediate next right, we're on that street at the end of the street. So if you count 1, 2, 3.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold on, I'm trying to digest this. You see the red marker on the screen on her home? So you go forward, which in this picture would be up. You'd make an immediate right and then your first right, and go 1, 2, 3, 4 houses away.

[Jeff Lemay]

1, 2, 3. Yes, yes. Perfect. Perfectly said.

[Nancy Grace]

Got it. It's kind of a little square with the driveway to its left. I see, I see. Actually, what would be the cut through? See it behind your home?

[Jeff Lemay]

Yeah, so it's alongside our home. It's a utility road for the power company.

[Nancy Grace]

Now that I'm talking to you. I see that now, Jeff, question. We keep hearing about a vacant home. Where is the vacant home as it relates to Mrs. Guthrie's home?

[Jeff Lemay]

So that is Catacorner to our house

[Nancy Grace]

across the street, the one with the beige gray roof. That one kind of to the left of your home a little bit.

[Jeff Lemay]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Aha. That's the vacant home. Wow. That is right around the corner from Mrs. Guthrie. I've been wondering, where's the Vacant home. Okay, what about construction? Where is the construction that's happening in the neighborhood?

[Jeff Lemay]

So that actually is. If you're on Escalante and you directly stare from Nancy's home up the street, that kind of. There's a cul de sac above. If on this. On this camera view above her street, you'll see a white roofed house at the very, very top of that cul de sac. That's where construction is occurring.

[Nancy Grace]

Mr. LeMay, do you recall any power outage either on January 31st or January 11th?

[Jeff Lemay]

You know, if this is. Once again, all this information has been provided to the authorities. Two of our cameras were, quote, unquote, offline during this time, which really surprised us. I can't say, you know, whether or not that was a coincidence that the cameras were out and offline. I mean, once again, that's for the investigators to determine, but they were.

[Nancy Grace]

How did you learn that your cameras. That. How did you learn that there were outages on 11 and 31?

[Jeff Lemay]

We learned that when we were reviewing the data with the investigators and saw, wow, this notation that there was an offline camera. Two offline cameras.

[Nancy Grace]

Jeff, who first came to your home asking for information?

[Jeff Lemay]

The feds, FBI walked our yard and we actually had a conversation about the. The rear yard and walked the scrub, so to speak, to see how inhospitable it was. And they put an opportunity to assess that. But we've had multiple visits from both. But the initial visit was from the sheriff's department.

[Nancy Grace]

Jeff, did you ever notice an individual that didn't live in your neighborhood the way another neighbor has, or did you notice a vehicle parked in the area for an extended period of time?

[Jeff Lemay]

We did notice a vehicle. My wife shared that information, but it was a very dim recollection. The Saturday evening, early evening, when walking the dogs, we noticed a car parked on Escalante. We shared whatever data we had, but we all do this. It's human nature. You see something, but you want to be accurate in the details you provide and really couldn't provide much else. It's just something that we noticed.

[Nancy Grace]

Could you put the overhead up really quickly for me? Me, Jeff, where on Escalante, which is Mrs. Guthrie street, was the vehicle parked?

[Jeff Lemay]

So if you continue past Nancy's home, there's a little area where people, when they walk their dogs in our neighborhood might park. It's sort of a little area, maybe, I'm going to estimate 50 yards down on the right hand side, there's a little cutout with gravel where people park their vehicles and we noticed a car there and so we noticed a vehicle. But once again, we shared that information. We did not notice anyone, any individuals walking around. I know other neighbors have.

[Nancy Grace]

Are you and or your neighbors afraid?

[Jeff Lemay]

We're unsettled. Most of all, you've seen the yellow ribbons, the angels on the palo verde trees, the concern for someone who lives in our neighborhood who a horrible thing happened to, the concern for the family who are going through a horrific, heart wrenching ordeal. Most of all, people are concerned about the neighbor and it is unsettling that something like this occurred.

[Nancy Grace]

Jeff Lamey, neighbor of Nancy Guthrie, speaking out in an effort to help the search. Thank you, Mr. Lame.

[Jeff Lemay]

Thank you.

[Nancy Grace]

Tonight we are learning that there is another line of investigation that centers around ridges in front of Nancy Guthrie's home. This particular one is from Susie DeBayer X straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. But more importantly, death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. What do you make of the ridges and can a cast be made of that? We have learned the FBI may have failed at getting a cast. I think I know why, but I want your analysis. Let's see it again.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah. So as you're seeing these ridges, Nancy, you can see the composition out here is, to say the very least, is uneven. And also this rock aggregate that's there is going to create quite a problem if you want to do a cast. But one thing that we can draw from the so called ridges is the idea of a wheelbase. This is something that we use when we're trying to assess tire tracks on motor vehicles. Now, obviously this is not a motor vehicle, but as you begin to think about something, say for instance, like a wheelchair, all right, you've got two parallel lines that are running in, in one specific direction. As a matter of fact, you take a look at it, it stays quite linear. It doesn't curve, it doesn't, it doesn't stay off the center here. The idea with wheelbase, though, Nancy, is to try to try to assess what the distance is between the center mass of where the actual wheels are making contact in those ruts. Let's use the term ruts. And because that's a term that we would normally use. So with that information alone, you can take that and you can begin to assess what product out there would create these images or these ruts that are being left behind that can be imaged. Can you actually say that this originated from this particular item, probably not, but it can at least put you in the ballpark. Now, I have to add this one comment here. Because of the level, or lack thereof, of security at the scene, we don't necessarily know what left these behind or who is more accurate, who left these behind. Could it be a perpetrator that is removing Mrs. Guthrie from the home, or could it actually be someone like, I don't know, a crime scene person that's dragging a kit behind them? And those ruts could actually match up with that?

[Nancy Grace]

Could the tracks be from a wheelchair? From a wheelbarrow, from some device used to move Mrs. Guthrie? And the video we were showing you earlier, guys, is from our friends at 12 News. The reason I'm talking to you about this, Joe Scott, not your wheelbarrow expert, but you are a blood expert. And we know the blood ends at a certain point and those tracks pick up at that point.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

See where.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, she gets put in a wheelchair.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Very compelling. Yeah, it actually is. Here's something else that, that you might want to consider, too. Do you have matching sets or do you have two sets of, of these, of these ruts? All right, if so, do they give an indication that you have a set that perhaps was not bearing weight before, and then afterwards it is bearing weight and also going to the blood trail. Is there, is there concurrence between where the blood trail ends and these ruts pick up? Because that's a fascinating question scientifically also. And you asked, you asked me a question just a second ago about wheelchairs and wheelbarrows and this sort of thing. And this I can tell you. Yeah, there's, there's a type of wheelbarrow out there that actually does have two wheels, but the, the width of those, of those tires on this thing are, are rather robust. This is not what you're looking at. You're looking at something that's very, very narrow. And of course, just like when we think about furrows in the neck of somebody that has been asphyxiated, remember, the smaller the gauge, the deeper the rut, or the deeper the furrow here, the more narrow, more narrow the rut, you're going to talk about something that has a very, very tight gauge on it that can actually go down into the surface. The idea here is to try to understand was it bearing weight at that particular time. And. But part of this just seems rather cumbersome.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, hey, Joe Scott, look at this again. One I've been asked, do these ridges suggest she was dragged? I don't See that? I see actual wheel marks. But what about a wagon?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, I suppose a wagon. But again, okay, this is what you would need to do. There are garden wagons out there that, that people utilize. I don't know what kind of utility it would have. And also, again, you would have to go back to the wheels or the tires on these things to see if they marry up with the width dimensions on the actual ruts themselves. Okay, so we've got two. We've got two measurements we're looking at here. We've got wheelbase and then we've got the width of the rut itself and then the depth. That's a third measurement.

[Nancy Grace]

There's been a lot of photos regarding tracks from her home. This particular one is from Susie Dubay X Susie Dube x. And I really liked it when I saw it. Can I get a close up again?

[Terry Wynn Yates]

You.

[Nancy Grace]

It was part of the blood video because you're not going to get any cast, I don't think, out of gravel. Now, see, this is where the blood starts. But when you look at this video as opposed to the still photos, you see how far along the blood went. I didn't ever hear Joe Scott about any blood being in that portion. It's gravel in cement. And you're not going to get a cast off that?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

No, not, not in that particular area. No, that's some kind of aggregate that has some kind of cement to it. So, no, you're not going to pick up anything right now. You can look at this.

[Nancy Grace]

What about where the ridges are? And by the way, that video is from our friends at Fox News. Go ahead, dear.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, so looking. Looking where these ruts are, Nancy, when you take a look at that, the composition looks like gravel to me. Or it's got some, you know, some kind of aggregate of gravel. I don't think that it's cemented down. However, just imagine if we poured a cast into that area. We actually use. People might not know this. We use dental stone in order to facilitate these casts, which is kind of made out of gypsum. And so when you let that dry, guess what you're going to pull up? You're going to pull up a big mass of gravel. At that point in time, it's nothing you can actually read.

[Nancy Grace]

So then our info that the feds could not get a cast of the tire marks or any shoe marks and the gravel is correct?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, yeah. So based upon this image that I'm seeing, and again, qualifier, these are not crime scene images, but when you take a look at that and you think about the composition of it, they would. They would say there's no utility in it. There's not going to have any value. The best thing you can do is. Photograph Photograph Photograph Photograph.

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. If you take a look at Porch Guy, not only does a careful look seem to reveal headlights over his shoulder, possibly from a vehicle. Now take a look. And this is from Blue Star 812X. Blue Star 812X. In addition to possible headlights in the background, I want to talk to guest Terry Wynn Yates, aka Mr. Locksmith, third generation master locksmith, over 25 years experience and expert in picking locks. I'm not going to ask too many questions about how you became an expert in picking locks. On YouTube he is at 24 hour Mr. Locks Locksmith. His website MrLocksmith.com MrProlock.com Mr. Win Yates, thank you for being with us. Explain to me how a lock pick could be used because we've heard so much. Did one perp come in through the back door while the other perp or a single perp came in through the front door? We've been told that the wrought iron screen door would be impenetrable. Let's take a look at that lock on Mrs. Guthrie's wrought iron door. Mr. Win Yates, can a lock pick break through this lock? And how?

[Terry Wynn Yates]

An amateur could open that lock in minutes, a professional in seconds. The top deadbolt and the bottom key and knob is what we train our locksmiths. That's the first locks they play with. They learn how to pick that within the hour they're picking those locks. It's not a high security lock at all.

[Nancy Grace]

Terry Wynn Yates, you're telling me. And by the way, this is video from Mr. Locksmith on YouTube. We're showing you how it's done, but could you explain it? Mr. Win Yates,

[Terry Wynn Yates]

to pick the lock, first of all, it has to be a lock that's not high security. So if it's a regular house lock business lock, what, etc. You apply turning pressure. And then there's a couple of different methods of picking. One is raking. You sort of rake the pick in and out as you apply tension. The other method is what we call SPP or single pin picking. And that's when you come become more advanced and you can pick pick the lock one pin at a time and there's five pins. And the lock that you showed me the picture, there's five pins, so. And it's a pretty simple lock to pick.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's see Mrs. Guthrie's lock again, please. Control room. So, Terry Win Yates, you're telling me that even an amateur could break into this with a lock pick.

[Terry Wynn Yates]

They don't have to break anything. There's several methods to open that.

[Jeff Lemay]

That lock.

[Terry Wynn Yates]

It's extremely easy to pick open. Extremely easy. And that's what we start our beginners with. And within the hour, they're picking that lock. And the bottom lock has.

[Nancy Grace]

So all this business about this door being impenetrable is all BS technical legal term, right?

[Terry Wynn Yates]

Totally.

[Nancy Grace]

Terry Wynn Yates, what about a lock pick gun?

[Terry Wynn Yates]

Yeah, the. It's basically just a spring with a little pick, like a straight pick on it, spring steel. And it's just. It's like bumping the lock. Yeah. And when you put it in there a couple clicks and apply tension, put in the pick gun, the ready readily available all over the Internet and you can pick the lock in seconds. It's just. And the other method, the pick gun's similar to what we call a bump key.

[Nancy Grace]

So you told me earlier that a lock pick gun is kind of old school. It's not been used much anymore.

[Terry Wynn Yates]

Well, there's better methods, but it's very simple to teach people that. One reason you don't like it in certain methods is covert, is it makes some noise. It goes bang, bang, bang, you know, click, click, click. So it can make some noise. If you want to be quiet, use a regular lock pick or some of the more advanced methods to pick the lock.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons. Joining us tonight, Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world to find and extract missing people. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet. I'd like you to turn your attention, Brian, toward the. What seems to be headlights behind the porch. Guy, look at that. And also control room, if you will, pull up the video where a pointer is actually pointing to the lights. So, Brian Fitzgibbons, does this mean there is an accomplice? And that's from our friend Bluestar 812 on X.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah, I. I think. Listen, does this piece of video mean that there's an accomplice? Not necessarily. However.

[Jeff Lemay]

Right.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Logic tells us that removing Mrs. Guthrie from the house, evading all sorts of detection throughout this process leads us to think there has to be more than one person involved and. And that they would require a vehicle to move her away from her residence 100%.

[Nancy Grace]

Hold on, hold on. Fitz, look. Fitz, look. Watch it again. He looks back directly at those headlights. See? Did you see that? Wait. Let's. Let's play that again in its entirety of this particular. See him look back? I did not notice that the first time. What about that, Fitz?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

There's been a number of really good breakdowns done in the online sleuth community. Seeing this, what appears to be some communication from the perp on the porch back in the direction of what appears to be headlights going off. So that is certainly, you know, an interesting point there.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Brian, other theories have emerged that. And this is from a retired FBI, that there are up to five accomplices. I find the five to be unbelievable, because with five people, somebody's going to crack or some wife, girlfriend, neighbor is going to blab. 5. Way too many. What's your thought?

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

I share that with a $1.2 million reward and five people associated in a conspiracy, it's very unlikely that they could keep things that tight without somebody leaking information or. Or going to law enforcement. I think it's more likely that two or three were involved here, at least a second person to bring up a vehicle and one to make entry into the home and bring out Mrs. Guthrie.

[Nancy Grace]

Brian Fitzgibbons, you were listening. As Jeff Lame was describing that school kid cutthrough that was used. I find that very, very interesting.

[Brian Fitzgibbons]

Yeah. So this cut through, and you can view it and zoom in on the map, you would have pretty good concealment to move on foot to the southeast and gain access to Mrs. Guthrie's property from her backyard. That cut through seems relatively navigable at night, you know, with that dirt road there, and would have good cover and concealment from cameras on the backyards of these properties.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining me now, Todd Shipley, digital cybercrime expert, former Detective sergeant, Reno, Nevada, 25 years in law enforcement, author of surviving a cyber attack and author of investigating Internet crimes. You can find [e-mail] Todd, you have been listening very carefully. Here's a question regarding your expertise. We know that Mrs. Guthrie had cameras in her backyard, including one up on a post. Do you believe there is more video or images to be found and they're just trying to recover them? Because we keep hearing shifting stories from nanos suggesting there's nothing else, and then suddenly, there is something else.

[Todd Shipley]

Well, I think you're right. I think there is more to be gotten out of this. That's evident by the fact that they had this other video that they classified from January 11th that all of a sudden showed up. But I think one of the things about the current video and the lights you're seeing in there is the bias that law enforcement has shown in their review of that video. And I mean that they focused on the person in the video because that was what see and didn't look at the background. And so oftentimes when we're looking at these things, we have to look at the bigger picture. And they didn't do that. They focused on the guy. They focused on that he had a gun. They focused on, you know, what was up his sleeve, whether it was a watch or a tattoo, all these things, and missed the fact that there was something in the background that was there that came out through crowdsourcing by somebody on X or, you know, through social media, which should have been one of the first things that they looked at when they looked at that video. What's going on? So there's a bunch of information, I think, that still exists that law enforcement hasn't either gotten to or has not released to us, obviously.

[Nancy Grace]

Todd Shipley, what is your other observation tonight?

[Todd Shipley]

Well, one of the things that we've not seen yet from the releases by the FBI or the sheriff's department is the metadata regarding these videos. Metadata is data that describes other data. When you take a picture, you take a video, there's data that is collected by the camera that describes who took it, what camera took it, the dates and times, sometimes geolocation. And so we don't have any of that. And I think that was why, at least initially, there was some concern about the January 11 date is because there was something that indicated that date in a camera video at some portion which we haven't got yet. So we don't know what that med data is related to any of these videos or any of the pictures that have been taken.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free 800-225-5328 or to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. Thank you to our guests joining us tonight, but especially to you for being with us and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

[Radhi Devlukia]

This is Radhi Devlukia from a really good cry. I absolutely love getting outside, whether it's a quick walk or a mindful few steps between meetings or even a longer run to just clear my head. But the one thing that can really ruin that for me is shoes that just don't feel right. That's why I started wearing Altra Running with the Altra Fit. Every step feels comfortable, balanced and strong, like my feet can finally move freely. What really stood out to me was the roomy toe box. My toes actually now have room to spread out, which makes movement feel more natural and comfortable. And when your feet aren't cramped, you feel more balanced, like every step has a strong, stable foundation. I've noticed that with extra space, my foot muscles get to work building strength so I can actually move with more confidence. Altra fits and moves with you no matter your pace or your goals. Beginner or marathon runner. They've really become my go to for any kind of running or training and I always feel like my feet can do exactly what they're meant to do. Feel the difference by visiting altrarunning.com and use my code CRY10 for 10% off. That's Altra A L T R A running.com Experience Altra and stay out there

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