Nancy Grace (2:07)

Pura Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother Nancy Guthrie missing As we learn, special emphasis is now being placed on Mrs. Guthrie's bedroom and her garage. But why? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Straight out to Crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?

Dave Mack (2:39)

Nancy One of the things that We've been wanting was Savannah Guthrie back on the Today show? I say we wanting the American people want to see some normalcy because, bless her heart, after two months, it's been a long, long time coming. But Savannah made her appearance back as pre announced on the Today show. Take a listen.

Savannah Guthrie (2:58)

Welcome to Today on this Monday morning. We are so glad you started your week with us. And it is good to be home.

Nancy Grace (3:04)

Yes, it is good to have you back at home.

Savannah Guthrie (3:06)

Well, here we go. Ready or not, let's do the news.

Movie Trailer Voice (3:09)

Yes, so good to have you back.

Dave Mack (3:10)

Savannah also did another announcement. This one was for her church website. And in this video is very, very personal, very, very personal at times, talking about her faith and. And about the Easter season and what it means to her and how it applies to what her family has been going through since the disappearance of her mother. It is a very touching video.

Savannah Guthrie (3:37)

I have long believed that we miss out on fully celebrating resurrection if we do not acknowledge the feelings of loss, pain and, yes, death. It is the darkness that makes this morning's light so magnificent, so blindingly beautiful. It is all the brighter because it is so desperately needed. So I close my eyes this morning and I feel the sunshine. I see a bright vision of the day when heaven and earth pass away because they are one on earth as it is in heaven. When we celebrate today, this is what we celebrate. And I celebrate, too. I still believe. And so I say with conviction, happy Easter.

Dave Mack (4:30)

That's Savannah Guthrie in a video posted for Easter Sunday through her church website.

Nancy Grace (4:35)

Dave Mack, renewed interest in Mrs. Guthrie's bedroom and garage. Why?

Dave Mack (4:42)

We figured out that Nancy Guthrie regularly went through her garage getting into her house. But only thing that's been taken out to be examined has been her vehicle, which investigators had first a couple of weeks, but there were six days, Nancy, from the time she went missing until the time investigators even took her car out of the garage. So there's plenty of opportunities to find something in there. Was that a staging area by the potential kidnappers? We also have the bedroom you've mentioned before. The home was in immaculate condition. Yet there were certain things, miss, that were showing law enforcement that something bad had taken place. So now they're back trying to figure out the exact layout of that bedroom. Where were things placed and what could possibly anything.

Nancy Grace (5:33)

So were any objects placed in a different location than they normally would have been? You know, to Chris McDonough joining us tonight, director at the Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective. He had an extensive, extensive experience in searching for suspects in Mexico over 300 homicides under his belt. And he is the star of the interview room on YouTube. Chris McDonough, you have a special interest in Ms. Guthrie's bedroom. Explain.

Chris McDonough (6:02)

So, Nancy, if we look at the bedroom where she's making the bed for an example, what I think the public is looking at is her making the bed. What I'm looking at is what we would call a control zone between the bed and the wall. Because if the suspect comes in there and this is her pattern of life, to sleep on the left side of that bed. Notice there's an alarm clock there. Notice her books are there. Notice her chair is there. All these items tell us that that's the side that she would be. So now picture this suspect on the left side of that bed. That also gives us an indication of potentially a point of entry into the house now, and that goes into this idea of the tarps. Where did this tarp idea come from? And how is the suspect going to control her and quote, you know, put her in a tarp? Tarp. I think that's out of play here. And it goes back to the blood evidence on the front porch where he's taking her through the front door.

Nancy Grace (7:05)

Why do you think the theory about a tarp. And I agree with you for other reasons, by the way. Why do you think that's misplaced?

Chris McDonough (7:13)

Well, everybody has said, you know, it looks like a tarp in his backpack. Okay, well, if you're going to control her in that house, the place you're going to do it is in that bedroom. And if you look at the. Now we look where she's standing on the side of that bed, showing us how she makes her bedroom. You. How she makes her bed in the morning. That is a pattern of life. So are the books. She's a big reader. So is the alarm clock. So, you know, the chair being there is critical because that's where she probably sits in the morning. You know, to, you know, at that age, you want to be moving your legs, you want to be, you know, moving your body and just kind of waking up. And so the elderly need these types of items nearby. What we don't see is the Apple watch device, you know, the charger device that allegedly disconnects at 2:28 in the morning.

Nancy Grace (8:04)

Let's take another look at the video of her in the bedroom. I want to take a careful look beside her bed. You're right. That's where she would charge her phone, most likely, and her. Her hearing device right by the bed. But it looks like she's got it put away for the cameras. Now, why is her routine so significant to you, Chris McDonough? I, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't understand the prob of which side of the bed she rolls out on.

Chris McDonough (8:34)

Well, this because the suspect would have to, you know, confront her on this side of the bed. So when Savannah describes the, you know, the horror of what mom is potentially seeing here, well, the suspect knows for a fact he's got her between the bed and the wall, so she's trapped. So if you think about that, you know, horror from an 85 year old woman looking at this guy dressed up like this in her bedroom, you know, the first thing she's going to do or he's going to do is, you know, push that terror a little bit more. Maybe she turns on the light that's right there. And all of this is a control mechanism for the suspect. So it puts us in the mind potentially of the perpetrator.

Nancy Grace (9:22)

From our friends at today on YouTube on one of Savannah's visits and to you, Joe Scott Morgan. Joining us, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott the fact that that was his point of control to me is not probative. I can't use it to prove anything, except that's where I would find the DNA or the static prints right there. Chris McDonough is right. That's the place to look. If nano's people had thought to do it, maybe they did. Doubtful, but maybe they did. What do you think?

Joe Scott Morgan (10:03)

That area where she is, and you're right, that can potentially be a point of control because you're going to remove her from that spot or what happens with that? You know, when we, when we go through our daily life, we don't think about where we put our hands, we don't think about where we step. The same thing applies, say for instance, to a perpetrator at a crime scene. You just go through these motions. You don't think about, well, what happens if I leave something here and the cops find it later? All right, because you're focused on trying to get control over a subject, for instance, in a kidnapping. So yeah, that whole area in there has potential for contamination. They're not thinking where they're stepping, they're not thinking where they're touching. And it's not just say, for instance, fingerprints are leaving behind. It can be touch DNA and touch DNA also we can have deposition of, say, sloughing skin cells that fall off of the wrist, say, the areas that aren't gloved, maybe they've left a hair behind. Nancy, do you realize that in an area like that, if you don't secure it, you don't treat it like you're going into a surgical suite as a crime scene investigator, that stuff can be lost very, very care very, very easily because it's so incredibly fragile. That's what it brings us back to this point of seeing security, being able to freeze things in that moment in time as best we possibly can. So not only can we document it, photograph it, but we can collect it. At this point in time, there's nothing to collect.

Nancy Grace (11:30)

Dave Mac, you also mentioned that renewed interest is in not only her bedroom. And now with Chris McDonough and Jo Scott Morgan explaining it, we see why. But renewed interest in her garage.

Dave Mack (11:46)

Do you know why the interest is that they the investigation had her vehicle for a couple of weeks, but we don't know what they were able to collect inside the garage. That door remains shut every time it's been opened, where cameras were trained on it, the vehicle was pulled in and the door was shut. So investigators going back into the garage looking for prints and anything else they

Nancy Grace (12:10)

can possibly find, you know, that raises another question. JO Scott, let's take a look as best as we can from the video of her home that shows her garage. We believe there was a clicker that opened the garage. We know that Annie Guthrie's husband brought her home that evening. But very often there is a control panel as well. This video from our friends at 12 News. And those control panels are just about the easiest thing in the world to hack. Which leads us to the possibility that the garage was the entry point. Is that where they're headed? We know the back door was propped open, maybe with flower pots. We know the front door was used as a exit from Mrs. Guthrie. But what about the garage door? How do you hack it? And what evidence could be obtained from that garage panel? Is that what they're up to? JOE scott Very well.

Joe Scott Morgan (13:18)

Be and listen, the garage is an interesting spot because if you're trying to say sequester yourself from the view of the rest of the world, you know, and I'm thinking here the word, the watchword here is containment. If you're trying to get control over somebody, but yet you're still trying to exit a structure, what a perfect area to do this because you've got cover right now. We don't know about other cameras and other data that might be collected in that area. But it is a perfect area. And if you have somebody that is sophisticated enough, at least when it comes to electronics and this sort of thing, yeah, I suppose that it could have been hacked. Most of the time those control panels are with inside of the house. So how does this work? Is it on Bluetooth, for instance? Because we know that there's a signaling device because all of us that do have garage door openers. That's something, you know, we can just be rolling down the road, right? This is old technology. And you press the button and you're still several feet away, maybe even yards away from your house, and your door begins to lift at that point in time. Is there some way they could have gotten into that? I think that question has to be asked and it has to be answered. Is there any way to trace that and try to, try to understand if anybody could have accessed that area through some type of potential hack?

Nancy Grace (14:36)

Can garage door openers be hacked? Absolutely, they can be hacked. They use low frequency radio waves. You heard Joe Scott state that very often you have a panel on the inside, but of course you have a panel on the outside that is visible. So you yourself can get in if you don't have your flicker. They're usually on a 3 to 400 MHz range. It communicates between your remote and the motor unit. Now, it's kind of like car radios. It's how they send songs through the air or how spoken word travels as sound. Same thing with garage door radio waves. They carry coded signals and they tell your door to open or close. How easy is it to hack into a garage? You can even do it with a toy watch.

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (15:30)

We are really looking at a way that you could possibly brute force your

Nancy Grace (15:34)

way into any fixed code, garage or

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (15:36)

gate using a device like the IM Me. It's a toy from Mattel. I don't think they make it anymore. But some hackers out there found that it actually has a pretty cool chip Inside called the CC1110. It's a microcontroller with a transceiver. And the transceiver is really cool because it actually transmits and receives on a really wide range of frequencies, down to around 200 MHz, up to like 950 MHz. So you can talk to a lot of things, including garages, cars, power meters, alarm systems, all sorts of things are in those bands.

Nancy Grace (16:07)

And there's actually some contacts underneath a

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (16:09)

battery in the back, which allows you to flash the board, erase it, and

Nancy Grace (16:13)

install your own software. On this device. So you can program in the de

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (16:17)

Bruyne sequence and then use this device to play those bits at the frequency you want to play and basically open

Nancy Grace (16:24)

any garage door or gate you like. That From Veritasium on YouTube. So, Joe Scott Morgan, hacking in is really easy.

Joe Scott Morgan (16:38)

Yeah, it's absolutely terrifying how easy it is. We're not. We're not talking about something, Nancy, here, like a cellular device or some type of iPad or something like that. We're talking about access and control to your own residence. And when you see it demonstrated how easy it is to facilitate this, it. It brings into question how sophisticated do the individuals have to. Have to be that do this. And if you've got a crew of people that specialize, say, for instance, in things like robbery or intimidation or this sort of thing, you know, I gotta tell you, that garage door seems like it's really easy to defeat. That really broadens your spectrum here relative to what type of person that you're looking at that could have perpetrated this crime.

Nancy Grace (17:24)

Nancy but to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter, if the garage door was hacked, wouldn't there be a log? Wouldn't there be evidence that the door opened and closed? I don't know if it would be the same if it was hacked.

Dave Mack (17:41)

That's a question I have because, you know, we know what time Nancy Guthrie was home. What? Because the door, the garage door opened and closed, and that was documented. So if the garage door remote was hacked and the door was open, would that hack cause the doc for the door to not document when it's open and closed? If it goes around it, then, yeah, we got a problem. But if not, if it documents every time the door is open and closed, then we would be able to find that out.

Nancy Grace (18:10)

Jo Scott Morgan, we were talking about renewed interest in not only Mrs. Guthrie's bedroom, but her garage as well, which leads me to the possibility of other blood evidence, whether they collected it or not. Question to you. Many people have asked me if blood would reveal whether it is from the nose, like a nosebleed, or the mouth if anticoagulant was used. Let's take another shot of Mrs. Guthrie. There's one of her in a lawn chair, and there's one of her with Savannah. Let's see the one with Savannah where you can see her hand and arm. I believe it's her left hand and arm. You see that she has bleeding under the skin, which is really common when you're using an anticoagulant like Eliquis or Some similar anticoagulant. A. Can you tell if an anticoagulant is in the blood? Would the blood pattern look different? And also can you tell by looking at the blood if it's nose blood or mouth blood?

Joe Scott Morgan (19:15)

Okay, let's take the image first and talk about that. You're absolutely right. Because when we are on blood thinners, there's been a study that has been done from a forensic perspective relative to warfarin or otherwise known as Coumadin.

Dave Mack (19:31)

Yeah.

Joe Scott Morgan (19:31)

That you will see this presentation in particularly the elderly because that's generally the population that it applies to. Other people can be on blood thinners, don't get me wrong. But however, let's focus on the elderly. So. Yeah. And plus, the skin itself is almost parchment. Like, the older you get, less collagen, skin breaks really easy. Now, that brings us to this idea. Can you tell the difference between deposition that, say, comes from a limb like this, like from the hand, the wrist, the upper arm, and compared to, say, the nose, the mouth, which we refer to as the nasopharynx area? Well, yeah, you actually can. And that's demonstrated in the blood that you see on the stoop. In my opinion, based upon these images that we have, because it appears, it appears that this blood, these droplets, have what's referred to as indications of aeration, which means it's passed through the nasal pharynx, perhaps through the nose, through the mouth. Michael Bottom even stated this on Fox relative to this. And I concur, I concur with his assessment as well, Nancy.

Nancy Grace (20:40)

Also tonight, an Amazon package being studied. Not just the package, but when and how it got there. Dave Mack, Take a look at this video of the porch guy. There you see him, and that is Jan, 31st into the early morning hours of February. No package. Then by the next day, there is a package. Take a look at it.

Dave Mack (21:04)

Dave Mack, it's shocking that it's crystal clear right there. Before, no package. Now we clearly see a package. Was this used as bait? Like, for instance, you're walking in the middle of the night, you're trying. That's all I can figure out, Nancy, is that you're using this package as some form of disguise of yourself. If somebody were to see you out in the neighborhood, why are you here? I got a package to deliver. It's the only reason you would see it there. But if it's really an Amazon package, then we can document when it was delivered, who delivered it and when, what time they were there.

Nancy Grace (21:41)

Well, as a matter of fact, Dave Mack In Pima county at an earlier attempted home invasion was facilitated by a female pretending. These guys. In conjunction by a female pretending to deliver a package. Let's switch to the woman acting like, there she goes. See her? That's exactly what you're talking about. But I see a problem. Dave Mack, let's go back to the before and after. I don't. I mean, he may have the package in hand when he's skulking around or have it somewhere to reach for and pretend he's a delivery person. But here, you see porch guy. It's not there when he's there, and then it's delivered. Here's where I'm going to. Chris McDonough joining us, Director of Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective and star of the interview room on YouTube. We here at Crime Stories have now conducted our own investigation. Even the older models of Amazon delivery trucks have cameras. They're not 360, but they're really good. The newer delivery trucks do have 360. So what, if anything, was captured in the days leading up to Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping? It's a treasure trove of information.

Chris McDonough (23:12)

Yeah, absolutely, because you're going to be able to see, you know, this truck pull up to that residence and you're going to see anything that's out of place prior to the, to the abduction. And like Dave said, on the porch with that package there, you're going to know date, time right up to the minute where they took that picture. You're going to have the metadata on that phone when that picture was taken. And my, my gut tells me, Nancy, that he saw that blood and went, oh, whoa. And he placed it off to the side there, took a picture, and he went about, you know, doing his thing, not thinking, you know, obviously that there was a potential problem here.

Nancy Grace (23:54)

Some people have even opined that the Amazon package is what was in his backpack. Now, I don't know how they're divining that. They must have X ray vision. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, I've heard everything from. He had a tarp in his backpack. He had an iPad in his backpack. Now he's got the Amazon delivery package in his backpack. Where are these theories coming from? How do they know this? I mean, I see nothing. That is just a mock up backpack. Let's see the actual backpack on the guy's back. Because when I'm looking at this, I can't tell in any way what's in the backpack.

Joe Scott Morgan (24:34)

I don't think that anybody could discern this. I think that people are, itching for information and they've got a lot of spare time on their hands. I'm looking at this, Nancy. I don't see anything protruding, hanging out. I don't see any discernible shapes. And listen, unless you work for the CIA maybe, and you have some kind of access to high end tech where you can discern images that might be within this thing and be able to make out outlines and all that sort of thing, I don't see how you can arrive at any solid conclusions right now. All we know is that the individual did in fact have a backpack, it appears to be an Ozark backpack, and that there is something contained within it. I don't know. For all I know, it could be his laundry. But you have to ask the question, though, it has to be asked from an investigative perspective. Why does this guy show up armed and carrying a backpack? What could have been contained therein? Because if you're going into an environment which. And he's. Listen, just the weapon alone, he's prepared for violence. Nancy, what is it that he would need to have with him in the event that he has some kind of violent event or some type of encounter? Is this some kind of restraint mechanism he has in there? Maybe. I have no idea. Is it something that he could have used for cleaning, perhaps? Or is it something that he could have brought along, say, for instance, to contain valuables, you know, putting stuff into a bag within a bag and walking out so that he doesn't draw any further attention?

Nancy Grace (26:10)

You know, I just still say there's got to be video of them leaving. Joe Scott. I mean, if you got the video of him coming in.

Joe Scott Morgan (26:18)

Yeah.

Nancy Grace (26:19)

Hoping and praying that that's being resurrected as we speak. If you know or think you know anything about Nancy Guthrie's whereabouts, please dial toll free 800-225-5324 or if you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Mrs. Guthrie. No arrest is required, much less a conviction. 1.2 plus million dollar reward. And remember, people can be charged. You can be charged for aiding and abetting. After the crime, a jury is allowed to consider movements and activities before, during and after the crime. And stark reminder, Arizona does use the death penalty. Right now, it's the needle. What happened to her?

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Nancy Grace (30:09)

repairs, crime stories With Nancy Grace, 2 Evil Ransom type notes are sent, demanding bitcoin in exchange for information about Ms. Guthrie's whereabouts. This as we learn that there was a live feed of the outdoors in Mrs. Guthrie's kitchen and on a laptop. Is that real? As investigators included the FBI trying to determine if the so called porch guy was wearing shoe coverings. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Nanos, who said, yeah, there's no video. She didn't have a subscription, but yet

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (31:09)

there is this idea that there could be no subscription. The actual camera could have been disabled. And Google is still able to generate these really extraordinary, chilling images. It ultimately could be what cracks this case.

Nancy Grace (31:24)

In the latest missive, sent again to our friend Harvey Levin at tmz, the perp, one of them insists, while they're not the kidnapper, according to them, that they know where Mrs. Guthrie is. And they seem very angry that they have been dismissed. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Listen to Harvey Levin at TMZ describing the note.

Harvey Levin (31:51)

We got another letter today from this person, an email saying, I know where her body is and who the kidnapper is. Give us. Give me half a bitcoin and I'll tell you. And this person has been really persistent, knowing that if it's a scam, it's a federal crime. Right.

Nancy Grace (32:13)

That from our friends at tmz. That's Harvey Levin on TMZ Live. Dave Mack. What the hey? Now, let's be clear. Savannah and I believe that she conferred with the FBI before she stated this. Says that she believes 2 of the ransom notes are real. Let's divide it up. You've got the deadline notes, the original ransom notes to which she is referring. Where the person says, I have Ms. Guthrie. They give information, details about the interior of her home, and they state they want bitcoin. We'll call that the deadline. Okay, then we'll call the other notes Harvey Levin has just gotten. We'll call that the hyena, because he is trying to capitalize on a horrific crime by claiming he can give information about Mrs. Guthrie's whereabouts. So we've got the deadline notes, the ransom notes, and then the hyena. Now, this is why, at the get go, many of us here on the panel Tonight believed that 2 of the ransom notes could be real. And we learned from Savannah that she thinks the same.

Savannah Guthrie (33:24)

Listen, the two notes that we received that we responded to, I tend to

Nancy Grace (33:31)

believe those are real from our friends that today on YouTube. And I guarantee you, knowing Savannah from our days at Court tv, she would not go rogue and say something that disagree with the FBI analysis. So I agree with her. So we've got those and then we've got the hyena. Tell me about the notes Harvey received. Dave Mack.

Dave Mack (33:55)

These are from the rat that wants a bitcoin to rat out the guys, the people who have kidnapped, allegedly Nancy Guthrie. Now, in the there were two notes sent. Nancy. In one of the notes, this individual says that he, he had mentioned in an earlier ransom note, Nancy, that he had seen Nancy Guthrie in the presence of the kidnappers. This time he goes a step further and says, I saw her with the kidnappers in Sonora, Mexico.

Nancy Grace (34:25)

Well, you're right, Dave Mack, take a listen to Harvey Levin.

Harvey Levin (34:28)

But they also made the point that they wanted to make it clear that they have nothing to do with it. Right. They've been out of the country, but who knows? We forward it. We forward it to the FBI as

Nancy Grace (34:38)

we have in the past. Dave Mack, I like your characterization that we had used earlier. The rat. He wants to rat out the real kidnapper. Joining us is renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is the author of Deal Breaker and she is now starring on Bravo and Peacock. And you can find her@drbethanymarshall.com you know what the irony, Dr. Bethany there's so much. But Savannah has to wake up every morning dealing with a the kidnapper and now baby, the hyena slash rat that is trying to make money off Ms. Guthrie or her body. And he is very careful to state now I had nothing to do with it. I just want to make money off of it. I mean, the gall.

Dr. Bethany Marshall (35:31)

But you know, Nancy, if he wants to make money off of this, it suggests that maybe he knows the kidnappers because he himself is a part of a criminal enterprise. So I would think that if he makes his identity known and he's been sort of thick as thieves with whoever took Savannah Guthrie, that that would be more daunting to him than or threatening to him than facing other kinds of charges for obstructing justice. It's kind of hard to say, but I just think he's sort of one of them that has broken away from the pack and now he wants to kind of profit off the knowledge that he.

Nancy Grace (36:12)

Well, let's introduce our special guest tonight, David Richards, joining us from this jurisdiction of Arizona. He is the founder and CEO of Blockchain Unmasked. It's an intelligence firm specializing in investigating Cryptocurrency related financial crimes, fraud, you name it. He's dealt with so many criminal cases, and you can find him@blockchain unmasked.com. in your experience dealing with all sorts of criminals, I think Bethany's right. Who do you think this guy's hanging around with? Nuns and priests and virgins? H E double L, N O. He's hanging around with people like the person that kidnapped Nancy Guthrie.

David Richards (36:56)

That's certainly possible. Obviously, someone that's going to want to throw their hat in the ring on an investigation like this may not be a savory individual, and I'm sure law enforcement's taking that into account.

Nancy Grace (37:07)

You know Dave Richards, of course, you're going to have to take everything this guy says, and I haven't seen him, but I can guarantee you it's a man. Okay. Statistically, this is a guy that takes part in a violent crime, such as kidnapping Ms. Guthrie and her bleeding all over the front porch. It's a man that said, we'll have to take what he says with a box of salt. Not a grain, but. But a box of salt. But I don't hear anything specific, like proof of life. I don't see any specific detail other than I know where they are. They're in Sonora. How is that. How can I believe that?

David Richards (37:49)

Well, you can, and that's. That's the main problem. Obviously, if someone did have intimate knowledge of an instance like this, they would likely breadcrumb that information if it were useful for them to achieve their own means, which in this case might be a ransom note or ransom money.

Nancy Grace (38:06)

What do you mean by breadcrumb? David Richards?

David Richards (38:10)

Sure. If someone did have some intimate knowledge of an incident in this case, it would make more sense that they would share a little bit to then give legitimacy to their ransom note. As of right now, it could be a troll. It could be a fake. It could be someone involved. And I think law enforcement is. Is looking at all of those options.

Nancy Grace (38:32)

When you say breadcrumb, go out on a limb with me. David Richards joining us from blockchainunmasked.com a breadcrumb such as what? To make me believe him.

Harvey Levin (38:44)

Yeah.

David Richards (38:45)

It could be any little bit of evidence that only someone involved would know. It could be a date or time, a timestamp of something. Something that only someone intimately involved would.

Nancy Grace (38:56)

I would go with something like Ms. Guthrie is wearing a wedding band on her left hand and a ruby solitaire on her right hand. Or Mrs. Guthrie asks for Irish breakfast tea with skim milk heated up or Mrs. Guthrie is wearing her pajamas, and they are red striped with candy canes. Christmas pajamas. I mean, something that only the kidnapper or someone who sees Mrs. Guthrie would know. That would be a breadcrumb to me. Agree. Disagree. David Richards.

Savannah Guthrie (39:36)

Agree.

David Richards (39:36)

If they want to provide legitimacy to what they're claiming, absolutely agree with us.

Nancy Grace (39:41)

Brian Fitzgibbons, you know him well. He's director operations, USPA nationwide security, who leads a team of investigators around the world, world finding missing people, including extractions, including from Mexico. He is a former marine and an Iraqi war vet. What would you look for in cases you have handled? That would be proof this guy, the rat, knows what he's talking about.

Brian Fitzgibbons (40:09)

Yeah, Dave was spot on there. And, you know, one of the challenges here is, is this rat, the author of the ransom note, is disconnected from the crime scene itself. So they've intentionally said that all of their information is coming from after Mrs. Guthrie was removed from the residence and purportedly moved to Sonora, the state in Mexico that borders the Tucson area. So they would have to provide some very specific details about her state, her condition, things that she said, things that she was wearing. That's what investigators would be looking for there.

Nancy Grace (40:49)

Okay, guys, more of our friend Harvey Levin. He is describing notes, and he says at the get go that this guy has been writing and writing and writing him. It's like that irritating student in class. I'm over here calling me. Look at me, look at me. That's him. That does not instill confidence. But let's listen.

Harvey Levin (41:15)

You have to assume that the law enforcement, they believe that this person is not legit. Otherwise, they would have advised Savannah to pay the money. Can we just be really transparent? I think you're right. That law enforcement doesn't. There's something I just can't figure out.

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (41:31)

Why the flyer.

Nancy Grace (41:33)

The price of bitcoin is much lower. Now, these are like, you could just

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (41:37)

take a flyer and see what the person knows.

Nancy Grace (41:39)

The most you lose is 20 grand. 25 grand. As we go to air tonight, one bitcoin is worth $68,101.30. $68,101.30. So let me understand, Dave. Mac, this guy is asking for a half of a bitcoin, which would be $34,000, right? David Richards joining us from Blockchain Unmasked. I kind of feel like I'm at an auction, you know, 20. 25, 30, 30. 35, 30. Anybody? 40? Anybody 40. Am I hearing 41? I mean, he's saying, okay, I'll take a half a Bitcoin. Remember at the beginning, way back when he wanted. I think he wanted one bitcoin. Now he's like. He's like, okay, I'll take half, but then once the arrest is made, you got to give me the other half. I'm trusting you. That does not instill confidence. It's kind of a layaway plan. Do you even remember that we used to buy things on layaway when I was growing up because we couldn't afford the entire price of the Christmas sweater, so it put down $10 and then come back when we had the other $25. Remember? Layaway? That's what it sounds like.

David Richards (42:54)

It definitely sounds like used car salesman behavior, where you start at one price and then gradually back down, which certainly questions the legitimacy of this.

Nancy Grace (43:05)

Brian Fitzgibbon. Half a bitcoin now and then after the arrest, the other half of Bitcoin. 35, 34, 50, $34,050 and 80 cents, essentially, is what he wants. Now. It's like a bargain basement sale for Mrs. Guthrie's whereabouts.

Brian Fitzgibbons (43:29)

Yeah, this is not very credible to me on its face, Nancy, for. For a couple of reasons. Just the pattern of communication here with no. No specific information, and the simple fact that they're communicating with TMZ and not directly with the FBI at this juncture, you know, 60 plus days in, doesn't lead to a whole lot of credibility.

Nancy Grace (43:53)

Agree.

Harvey Levin (43:54)

Listen, my spidey senses tell me that there's something about this guy because one of the emails he sent said early on, time is of the essence to do this. And then the next day he said, time is no longer of the essence. If he was pulling a scam, why would you say time is no longer of the essence?

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (44:15)

You know, you want to keep the

Nancy Grace (44:16)

value, you want to keep the valuation.

Brian Fitzgibbons (44:17)

Yeah.

Harvey Levin (44:18)

And the fact that he said this made me think this guy knows something.

Dave Mack (44:22)

It's a way to look honest as well, though.

Dean Graziosi (44:24)

I'm not.

Harvey Levin (44:25)

Look at all the information they are. But you're talking from the outside looking in, it sure seems like this person knows something.

Nancy Grace (44:34)

Well, right there. Harvey Levin. That's reference Harvey Levin at TMZ. Harvey made a really good point. Harvey 11 is not just a pretty face and a tight gray T shirt. He is a trained lawyer. Okay, that's a really good point. Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. What would be the motivation if he wants the money to say time is no longer of the essence, suggesting that Ms. Guthrie may have passed on? Why would he say that? They're right?

Dr. Bethany Marshall (45:10)

I think that what is happening is this guy is both a scammer and real, potentially. And what I mean by that is he may tangentially be related to the kidnappers. In other words, you know, the kidnapper's bragging and they. One person brags to another and then brags to another. And so he gets just enough information to send in the note, and then he gets enough information to say that time is of the essence and then to say that she's dead. You know, Nancy, this. Whoever this guy is, he watches a lot of TV because the language in the ransom note feels like it's taken out of like a CSI script. Like he writes, millions have been wasted. I'm willing to deliver them on a silver platter. I am disregarded as a scam, but they are free. And the case is frozen. But the egos remain hot when it comes to me. It's like somebody who can't put his own thoughts together. So he kind of takes bits and pieces of things that he's seen on TV and he kind of weaves them together into a ransom note. Nancy, this guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed. I mean, he really is not. And one of the things that makes me think that this is credible is that witnesses tend to come forward when the case goes cold because they're no longer afraid of repercussions from the criminals.

Nancy Grace (46:32)

You know, it's interesting. You say he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, but somehow he's managed to to elude law enforcement and the FBI, as has the so called porch guy.

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Nancy Grace (49:54)

stories with Nancy Grace. David Richards Founder CEO Blockchain Unmasked what do you make of the fact that he he comes out and says Mrs. Guthrie is dead? I cannot imagine Savannah's reaction to that because I know she's holding on to a very thin hope that her mom may still be alive, and she's putting on a brave face and going back to work and back to her children. To have the rat state that boldly, I mean, what do you make of it?

David Richards (50:33)

It, well, certainly tragic. My heart goes out to the family. In this instance, of course, to be receiving that as a family member, I would be devastated. I would also be questioning and going to federal law enforcement to determine the legitimacy of this note and make sure that every stone is overturned by private investigators and federal law enforcement in this instance.

Nancy Grace (50:58)

Right. Brian Fitzgibbon, what do you make of the so called rat hyena trying to make money out of purportedly Mrs. Guthrie's dead body, according to him? I'm not accepting that yet. What kind of a person would do that? But that said, duh is Harvey Levin, right, that that adds legitimacy to this note because he basically lowered his bargaining with himself, reducing his price by stating Ms. Guthrie has passed on.

Brian Fitzgibbons (51:34)

Yeah. I mean, listen, you could look at it that way, right, that, you know, this author, this note is lowering the price, adding some legitimacy by saying, hey, I recognize that Mrs. Guthrie has passed. This is the information I have. I realize that this isn't a rescue operation at this point. You know, just pay me half a bitcoin and I'll give you the rest of the info. But what I. The question that I have is, and first of all, let me back up, this is the point of offering a reward, right? The very point of offering a reward is to inspire people with lower morals looking for a monetary gain. As for the information they have related to the case, so, you know, if it is authentic, the reward messaging is working, guys.

Nancy Grace (52:26)

This is the scene of the search. This is Mrs. Guthrie's home. From our friends at 12 News and Fitzgibbons. You're right again. As I always say to juries and opening statement, and then reiterating again in closing statement, look, we got to take the witnesses as we find them. Them? I put up dope dealers as a state's witness. I put up people that were flat out drunk on the stand because I had no choice. Because they knew what they knew. Right? And in this case, if we have to believe a rat slash hyena to find Mrs. Guthrie, then we will hold our noses and we will do it. I find it very curious and interesting and possibly probative that Levin, who's on the inside of these ransom notes, were on the outside, believes that there may be some credibility to them. But you brought up another fact. Just then, Brian Fitzgibbons. And you're right. Why not just claim the reward? It's a lot bigger than half a bitcoin. Half a bitcoins around $34,000. The reward is 1.1.2 plus million dollars. So why.

Brian Fitzgibbons (53:44)

Yeah, that's. That's perplexing. You know, this. The author of this ransom note is apparently going to be leaving, you know, $1.15 million on the table for this information that, you know, could lead to locating Mrs. Guthrie. And they're communicating with someone who doesn't have the authority to grant that reward, meaning tmz. They're not communicating directly with the FBI.

Nancy Grace (54:12)

Here you are seeing search video from our friends at today YouTube. The search going into the night, it has gone on for days and days and days. And now all of that evidence is being sifted through by the FBI, both on the scene there in Tucson, in Phoenix, and at Quantico. This is my friends at Fox News. But he goes on Dave Mack, in response to. Why not just claim the reward? He claims he doesn't want the reward. He wants money to start a new life without having to go into the witness protection program. And he kind of connects taking the $1.2 million with witness protection program. Sly, very sly. Explain.

Dave Mack (55:01)

Yeah, he's trying to say that he were to go the legitimate route to, you know, get the big reward, that he would be outed eventually and have to change his entire life and go into the witness protection program, and he'd never be safe. But he just wants a little bit so he can start his life over again and just get out from underneath everything that he apparently is under.

Nancy Grace (55:22)

Okay, David Richards. That is a non sequitur. It doesn't follow. It doesn't make sense. He's saying, I don't want the big rents. I don't want the big reward because I want to stay off the Fed's radar. I don't want to enter witness protection. I just want this bitcoin. Half a bitcoin now, half a bitcoin later, so I can start a new life all over again so I won't have to live in fear. But if the perps were arrested, he wouldn't live in fear. He wouldn't have to be in the witness protection program. That doesn't ring true, does it?

David Richards (55:58)

Doesn't make sense. Obviously, if someone has legitimate information, they would bring it to legitimate federal law enforcement and go that route. Whereas in this instance, the various changes of those notes, even the demand of ransom in bitcoin, shows an immaturity, and in my opinion, a lack of genuine knowledge on the case.

Nancy Grace (56:21)

And we also learn from Harvey Levin that this is by far not the first time the same guy has written.

Harvey Levin (56:29)

Share a little bit of news with you. The person who has been incessantly contacting us, although stopped for a while. Stopped for a while. We got another letter today that's from

Nancy Grace (56:39)

our friends Harvey Levin at tmz. Incessantly contacting. Incessantly contacting. And not only are they incessantly contacting our friend Harvey Levin there at tmz, they're also miffed. They're irritated that they're not being taken seriously and considered to be a con, a scam. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I think we could all use some psychoanalysis right now. Explain.

Dr. Bethany Marshall (57:07)

Well, this. This irritability and anger that he hasn't been respected, it reminds me of people who are obsessed with crime, but in such a way that they feel that they know the answer behind the mystery, like they know more about the crime than the people who are investigating it. So this tells me, again, this is somebody who watches a lot of tv, knows a lot about different crimes, is kind of, you know, patchworking together various words that he may have heard on tv. And there's an arrogance to it, as if he knows more than anybody else. That's what I see.

Nancy Grace (57:48)

So not only do we have the rat incessantly contacting his words, not mine, harveymz, with one note, one email after the next, he even discloses or alleges that Mrs. Guthrie is dead. His words, not mine. She is dead. That's quite the blow, isn't it? But yet Savannah returns.

Savannah Guthrie (58:19)

We celebrate today the promise of a new life that never ends in death. But standing here today, I have to tell you, there are moments in which that promise seems irretrievably far away, when life itself seems far harder than death. Recently, though, in my own season of trial, I have wondered, I have questioned whether Jesus really ever experienced this particular wound that I feel, this grievous and unique cruel injury of not knowing, of uncertainty and confusion and answers withheld.

Nancy Grace (59:04)

How dare these people do that to Mrs. Guthrie and to her family, including Savannah, Cutting them to the bone and then making them question their own faith. That's from our friend, Good Shepherd New York, a YouTube. It's so easy to go down the vortex of Savannah's pain, her family's pain, so near the surface and so obvious. Tonight, how do we catch this piece of crap that has done this to the Guthrie family? To David Richards, founder, CEO, Blockchain un. Unmasked. How do we trace A, the email, B, the bitcoin account that he has provided?

Movie Trailer Voice (60:01)

Sure.

David Richards (60:01)

Email can be traced through what we consider open source intelligence. You're searching the exact address across the web, public data breaches, looking for the same username on other sites, social media, other signups that this individual could have used.

Brian Fitzgibbons (60:17)

That's.

David Richards (60:17)

That's the email. More specifically, if you've got the info inside the actual email header, header analysis can show routing path or server info. Although currently spoofing technology does exist and make it a little bit tricky.

Nancy Grace (60:32)

Slow down. Explain that, please. Spoofing technology, sure.

David Richards (60:37)

Given the level of technology nowadays, spoofing an email address, making it appear as though it came from Nancy Grace.com is possible. However, it is also possible to dig deeper into that header analysis, route and path and server info to determine where an email actually could have come from.

Nancy Grace (60:58)

Okay, that's looking, trying to track the email and I'm not sure how this guy has. And the actual ransomer has managed to stump the FBI. How are they doing it? David Richards?

David Richards (61:16)

Well, I don't have specific details, but I can assume that there are certain email addresses, email platforms that one can sign up to remain anonymous to not provide any information that you or I would use on, for example, a Google. No real names, no real information. It can just be what would be considered a burner account. So that is possible here.

Nancy Grace (61:41)

Well, how do you track burner accounts?

David Richards (61:44)

Well, it's no different than blockchain. The more interactive, the more correspondence, the more data points you have can add to the ability to track an account. The platform providing that burner.

Nancy Grace (61:59)

You just told me something really important. Well, it was all important. I'm trying to ingest everything that you're saying. It's like drinking from the fire hydrant a lot at once. But you said the more communications, the more likely it is they can trace him. And according to Harvey Levin, who have no reason to doubt he's been contacting them incessantly, wouldn't that help?

David Richards (62:24)

It could help. The problem with Harvey is that he may not have the tools or the knowledge to gather what might need to be gathered. FBI or federal law enforcement would be coming in as a second party versus controlling those, those communications.

Nancy Grace (62:41)

Well, he's been handing it all over to the FBI, so I assume they've got all the information, David?

David Richards (62:48)

Sure. And that's a little bit different. If FBI were actually controlling the information and the exchange of information versus going through a third party, they're still outside looking In. In that instance. That said, it's still completely possible that this individual is using a burner email account.

Nancy Grace (63:08)

Can a burner email account be traced

David Richards (63:11)

through clever counterintelligence tools? Sure. Yes, it can be.

Nancy Grace (63:17)

What counterintelligence tool?

David Richards (63:20)

Federal law enforcement, including other investigators like ourselves, do have tools, metadata from online interactions. And that includes on the blockchain.

Nancy Grace (63:31)

Okay, that's how to find the email. But how do trace the email? How do you trace the actual bitcoin account?

David Richards (63:40)

Sure. So a bitcoin account, I'm sure you've heard it a lot, is anonymous until the flow of funds reaches a centralized portal. I consider this similar to the dmv. You and I can see the license plate numbers, but only the DMV or law enforcement knows who's behind those numbers. Blockchain is no different. So we do need transactions in order to end up determining a flow of funds to a destination that does collect this type of information.

Nancy Grace (64:12)

Well, what if Harvey Levin put in, say, $300 or does. Does the perp have to move the $300?

David Richards (64:21)

Yes, in this instance, the money would have to move. And again, it would have to reach a place where law enforcement can submit subpoena warrant in order to gather the appropriate information around that user. If it's on chain, it will.

Nancy Grace (64:36)

You mean if it goes to another country? If it's transferred to another country. Less likely, because other countries do not have reporting regulations that would. The US Does.

David Richards (64:48)

Admittedly, they don't have to respond to federal law enforcement or work on a daily basis with federal law enforcement. Non US Entities can sometimes refuse, although they will also participate in many investigations.

Nancy Grace (65:03)

What's the chance that right now, David Richards, as we go to air tonight, there is somebody in some office, either in Tucson, Fina, or Quantico, some office with those horrible overhead lights on, trying to figure this out, trying to trace that email, trying to trace that Bitcoin account. I'd say 100 to nothing.

David Richards (65:28)

Absolutely. I've got all the. We work with federal law enforcement all day, every day. And I've got all the faith and confidence that the most intelligent people in the world, in the country are on this. So the odds are well over 100%.

Nancy Grace (65:42)

Also tonight, I want you to take a look at a monitor that has appeared in A shot of Mrs. Guthrie with Savannah. We believe in Mrs. Guthrie's home. Look carefully at the laptop to Mrs. Guthrie's left. Your right. It looks like. Like an outdoor surveillance home surveillance. Look at that. Okay, let's take it in full again, please. If you will now look just over Mrs. Guthrie's left shoulder on the right of your screen. That looks like it's being projected up on, like, a TV monitor. What is that? Brian fitzgibbons?

Brian Fitzgibbons (66:29)

Yeah. So what. What you see there on the countertop appears to be a tablet connected to an external keyboard. And that. That it could be playing, you know what. What Looks very similar to infrared or night vision. Live feed from a security camera. This could be connected into that NEST system.

Nancy Grace (66:52)

Okay. I don't get it, David Richards. How can there be no trace of. Of this, nothing left behind when I can see that she has home surveillance video and she's looking at it on her. Her laptop. Why can't that be resurrected?

David Richards (67:13)

Well, I'm. I'm sure it can be. And I. I am also certain, given our experience with investigations, that there is information that is known and shared and information that is known and not shared. It's very strategically released and presented by federal law enforcement. But that information is likely accessible.

Nancy Grace (67:38)

You know, Google pulled a miracle or a miracle dropped on their heads from above, and they were able to resurrect the video of the porch guy. We're praying for another miracle to help crack the case. This has theories run rampant that the porch guy was actually wearing a shoe covering. Let's take a look at some of the possibilities. Okay, that's one example of a shoe covering. A covering like this. To Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security. What difference would it make if he were wearing shoes coverings?

Brian Fitzgibbons (68:21)

Yeah, that certainly narrows the field of footwear, right? I mean, how many people, you know, and in what trades have these very specific shoe coverings? So that would be a very key piece of information. And the big question here is going to be, can we match. Can. Can investigators match the pattern found in that blood? Was there a shoe print in that blood? And can they match it to one of these coverings or to a specific pair of shoes?

Nancy Grace (68:52)

What do you make of it? David Richards? It would show a certain degree of premeditation that if shoe coverings were worn and there's many different types, and you have to look at the Portuguese shoes to determine, is that possible? The reason I care if shoe coverings were worn, that would be an entirely new avenue of investigation to find out who bought those, who had them in the neighborhood. Maybe construction workers, maybe H Vac workers, maybe people that were coming in and out of Mrs. Guthrie's home that didn't want to track mud into her home. It could mean any number of things, David.

David Richards (69:30)

Absolutely. If true to your point, it does mean and would indicate a level of premeditation. I would certainly argue that an incident like this requires that regardless, it was not haphazard, it was likely planned ahead of time. And shoe coverings, if that's what was worn, is an indication of that.

Nancy Grace (69:49)

Take a look on the right side of the screen at the shoes there. They look somewhat different than the ones he's wearing on Feb.1. So did he not wear shoe coverings Jan. 11 and did wear them Feb. 1? These are so some of the questions that the FBI is investigating as we go to air tonight. If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's whereabouts, please dial toll free 800-225-5324. If you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463 There is a 1.1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of Mrs. Guthrie. A conviction, even an arrest, is not required for you to get this reward. $1.2 million tonight we remember an American hero, Sergeant Michael Schlapman, Bernalillo County Sheriff's New Mexico killed in the line of duty after 13 years, leaving behind a grieving fiance. Tara Flynn, American hero. Sergeant Michael Schlattman thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

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You ever wonder how far an EV can take you on one charge? Well, most people drive about 40 miles a day, which means you can do all daily stuff no problem. Go to work, grab the kids at school, get the groceries and still have enough charge to visit your in laws in the next county.

Movie Trailer Voice (73:53)

But they don't need to know that.

Commercial Announcer / Tech Expert (73:55)

And the best part? You won't have to buy gas at all. The way forward is electric. Explore EVs that fit your life@electricforall.org

Nancy Grace (74:06)

this is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.