Dave Mack (3:33)

What do you know, Nancy? What we know right now is a former SWAT commander with a source inside Pima County Sheriff's office says that the Guthrie family, the children and their spouses were all polygraph and passed the polygraph test was flying colors.

Nancy Grace (3:51)

Wow. Dave Mack, thank you for that. I want to go out to a special guest joining us right now. It's George Olivo. He is a certified polygrapher. He is former FBI and you may have actually seen him over at our friends at A and E because he is the polygrapher that polygraphed the Casey Anthony family. Now there's George Anthony getting polygraphed. Remember his daughter, tot mom Casey Anthony accused him of wrongdoing of all sorts of crimes in the tot mom murder case of her daughter Kelly Anthony. Georgia Levo is the one that performed all the polygraphs for A and E's Casey Anthony, the parents lie detector test. And then you went on to create another A and E program. What was the name of it, George

George Olivo (4:50)

that was called a lie detector Truth or Deception. That was a series that was based patterned after the Casey Anthony show.

Nancy Grace (5:00)

I can't believe people are dumb enough to hook themselves up to one of your Polly's Georgia Levo. Georgia Levo is based in LA and as I said, former FBI. Now before everybody starts screaming, they're not allowed in court. Polygraphs are allowed in court. They are routinely allowed without a problem in civil cases and they are allowed in criminal cases if they are stipulated or agreed upon before the poly. Both sides have to say in writing, yes, we'll allow the poly. In the criminal case, we agree. And then you perform the polygon before you know the outcome. How does it work? Break it down for people that have never been present or never conducted or subjected to a polygraph.

George Olivo (5:45)

Well, the polygraph doesn't. There's nothing on the screen that shows up and says you're lying or you're telling the truth. Really? You really want to look at it more than people calling it a lie detector test? It's really more of a stress detector test. And so we're looking at physiology and at the end of the day, when we say someone pass, what we're saying is that they had no significant response, no significant response to the relevant questions. And so we're inferring that because of that, that they're telling the truth. Now, when there's a significant response, then we say that there's a reason for that. Responses, reactions don't happen in a vacuum. So when they react repeatedly over and over to the same question because there's redundancy built into the protocol, when they keep reacting to the same question, then we infer that there's deception indicated there.

Nancy Grace (6:34)

So how have you ever visibly seen them react, Georgia Levo like, do they start sweating? Do they glance around nervously? Do they twitch? Do they get a nervous tic? Can you actually see them reacting when your poly is going?

George Olivo (6:52)

Well, no, not, not really. Because if a person is twitching or moving or even sighing or breathing too heavily, if the physiology is not acceptable, then what most people don't realize, Nancy, is that the trump card that we always have in polygraph, when people say, well, what if they cheat? What if they try to cheat? If the physiology does not look natural and normal, if it looks in any way controlled or manufactured in some way that they're trying to do something on the test, then the examiner, no matter what the score is numerically, the examiner has sole discretion to say, I'm not going to accept this test. And it happened to me just recently where someone numerically passed the test, but I said, no, I'm not going to accept it. So the final result in that case, we call it a no opinion test. We can redo the test, but we're not going to pass someone if the physiology is suspicious.

Nancy Grace (7:48)

George Olivo I'm curious why. And there's Cameron, the brother, Cameron right there. Why did you refuse to pass on that poly? What happened during it?

George Olivo (8:00)

Well, the physiology was outside of what we call normal range. So it was atypical physiology. You know, it's kind of like, Nancy, you go, if you have a counterfeit hundred dollar bill and you go into the bank to the manager of the bank and you ask them to give you change for that hundred dollar bill, they're going to look at it, it's going to scrutinize it, hold it up to the light, and they may not know the exact counterfeit technique that was used, but they know what the real bill is supposed to look like. And so I've been looking at physiology for 15 years. I know what's in normal limits within, within normal range. And if it doesn't look normal. And I won't get into exactly the diag agnostic features I'm looking at because then that's kind of telling people how to try to cheat on a test. But when it doesn't look normal, we can stop the test. We can give them a warning, which you know that that's fair. Give someone a warning because then there's a possibility they might not be doing it on purpose. It could be something due to a medical condition. But you can tell someone, look, you know your physiology. You just got to sit still, breathe normally, and don't do anything to change the outcome of this test or to manipulate the test. And if it continues, then whether it's being done on purpose or not doesn't matter. We don't have to accept the. We don't have to accept the final numeric score.

Nancy Grace (9:17)

Guys, the video we showed you of Savannah and sister Annie and Annie Guthrie's husband laying flowers at a makeshift honorarium. That's my friends at Fox News. Back to George Olivo, L.A. polygrapher and the star of Casey Anthony's Parents the Lie Detector Test and more. Former FBI George, here's the big question. Everybody wants to know the answer to this. Can you cheat a poly?

George Olivo (9:50)

That's a good question. If you can thread a needle in the dark, then I guess I would say yes. It's very difficult to do. You know, the law enforcement has been using polygraph for decades. And you know this, Nancy, they're not going to rely on investigative tools that fail randomly. So we're not really worried about someone coming in and randomly cheating on polygraph tests. Most of the things people try to do that they find on the Internet, try this or try that. Because I look at that all the time. I'm all the time looking at the Internet asking, I type in all the time, how can I cheat on a polygraph test. I do it all the time to see what is being put out there. And basically everything I see, I'm thinking to myself, well, good, yeah, do that because it's easy for me to spot that.

Nancy Grace (10:36)

Guys. Joining us, George Olivo, a renowned polygrapher, joining us out of the LA jurisdiction. So wouldn't you agree that it's sop, standard operating procedure, George, for family members to be pollied?

George Olivo (10:52)

I would agree with that, yes.

Nancy Grace (10:54)

Because statistically that's who you look at when somebody goes missing or is found dead. You look at family members. Statistically, someone close to the victim is responsible. But not true in every case. Now let me ask you, you've been studying the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. If you pollied her family, what would you ask them? Let's just start with the brother in law. He seems to be the scapegoat. Although a lot of people online, they look at the intruder, the porch guy who took Nancy Guthrie, and they're convinced it's Annie Guthrie. The woman, the sister. That's not Annie Guthrie, everybody. That's a man. That's a man. That said, what would you ask the son in law? Where would you start with that? George Olivo?

George Olivo (11:45)

Well, that's a great question because that's really going to. If you say someone passed the polygraph exam, the real question is, well, you know, what did you ask the person? The relevant questions are so important.

Nancy Grace (11:55)

That's right. What are the questions?

George Olivo (11:57)

Exactly. What are the relevant questions? And of course, secondarily and equally important, who did the polygraph exam? So if the FBI did the exams, I'm very confident that they were, they were done well and they were done correctly. Obviously I'm thinking, gonna think that that's where I got my training, and I think the FBI's best in the world at that polygraph. I don't have any doubt about that. But the questions have to be carefully constructed because they can't be accusatory questions, it can't be inflammatory questions, and they have to be questions that don't have a. A loophole. Because first thing we're thinking about when we're constructing a question for a polygraph is what could the person possibly say if they fail this test to get out of it? Oh, well, I failed because it was Tuesday instead of Wednesday, or I failed because I didn't understand this. So you want to make sure that the question is nice and tight. One question I would not ask in this case is, do you know who took Nancy? Because that is kind of a rookie mistake. Because if I ask someone a question on a polygraph exam, in this particular the case, missing person, I say, do you know who took her? Which includes the person themselves, right? So I feel like I'm including that if they did it themselves or they know who did it, then they would fail and they fail the test. All they have to say is, well, everything on the news says XYZ or I had a dream the other night and I feel I know who did it. So you're back to square one. So that's a loophole and it's a bad question. So in a case like this, I would, I would ask. It's actually pretty similar to, actually to the case at George Anthony because there was a missing person in there. Right. The little Kaylee. And I would ask in this case something like, did you deliberately cause Nancy's disappearance? Not are you responsible? Because, you know, even Savannah and you know people that are truly grieving and, and are heartbroken, they may feel responsible. I could have done more. I should have called her. I should have done something. They may feel responsive. You don't want to ask. You feel responsible. But did you deliberately cause her disappearance? Are you. And if it' something where you really do need to know if it's another person, in other words, secondary involvement, they didn't physically take her, but maybe they murder for hire, they paid someone. You really do need to know if they are involved. Secondarily, I might ask something like are you protecting the identity of the person who took Nancy? Something like that. Which is very direct. And if you fail at it, there's no, you know, there's no wiggle room in there. If you fail it, then you got to explain why you failed it, why you failed that test.

Nancy Grace (14:32)

I was just watching, watching George, Savannah crying. Now people are attacking her because she might go back to work. Can people that are very upset, very emotional, they can't stop crying. Can they take a poly?

George Olivo (14:48)

No. I would say no. There's this unspoken rule or not unspoken, rather unwritten rule. Some people call it the 24 hour rule. I don't know if it's 24 hours or 48. People grieve differently. But you should never polygraph. We could give someone a polygraph exam immediately following a traumatic experience. So if she had just found out that her mother's missing and is in a huge panic or even if someone just finished getting interrogated on a case, let's say a bank robbery or murder, and they've been interrogated for three or four hours and then you throw them in a polygraph chair right after that to take a polygraph exam because they keep denying it. That's not really a good idea either. You should. The person should be more of a. And in a calm state. And who's to say how long that should be? If it should be 24 hours or 48 hours, but it shouldn't be somebody who is, is crying or sobbing or grieving. It's not going to give you a good result. Again, physiology is not going to be.

Nancy Grace (15:45)

It's going to be all over the map.

George Olivo (15:47)

Sure.

Nancy Grace (15:49)

George. Guys, George Olivo joining us from George Olivo.com former FBI polygrapher in LA. He learned polygraphs with the FBI I can see it right now, George. I would be on a plea and arraignment calendar. No, maybe 150 new defendants a week. And I could see during plea negotiations, a defense attorney coming down a long hallway in the courthouse as if they knew something. I'm like, okay, here it comes. He's got something. Sure enough, he has a polygraph. My client passed a polygraph. I'm like, okay, first I say, who took the poly? Did you hire a private firm to take the poly? Is it somebody you use a lot? You paid them for the poly? Then they would have to tell me who administered the poly. Okay, I wouldn't like that because I would want law enforcement to administer it. And then I say, well, what were the questions? If you want me to pay any attention to your poly, I need to know what the questions. They would never want me to know the questions. The questions have to be very carefully devised. I've devised questions for Polly's and then been corrected rightly by you. The polygrapher would correct me and say, that's not a good question. That's not going to work. It's got to be a very direct question. So, for instance, I'm working up to it. George. Thank you for bearing with me. A lot of people have attacked the son in law, Nancy Guthrie's son in law, who is Annie Guthrie's husband. Annie. So the questions have to be formulated. For instance, many people have stayed. The son in law is responsible. I reject that. Or one of his bandmates. He plays in a band or played in a band. One bandmate, his life totally destroyed because of this. That said, what question would you ask the brother? You've got the brother in law, because you've got to ask if he was involved or if someone he knows was involved. And what if he thinks, ooh, maybe the pool guy was involved? What if he's thinking, maybe a grocery store delivery person was involved, Maybe a granny nanny's son was involved. That can really screw up your polygraph test. The question's got to be just right. How do you phrase it, George?

George Olivo (18:16)

Exactly. So, yes, you're exactly right, Nancy. Just like I said earlier, you don't want to ask the question, do you know who did it? Do you know who took Nancy? Because you're right. He may say, maybe it was this guy, maybe it was that guy. Maybe it's all the stuff I'm hearing on the news. So if. If he has an alibi, for example, in terms of where he was physically was when she disappeared, the only other option is that maybe he hired someone or is working directly with somebody so that he's indirectly invol. And the disappearance. You want to ask something like, are you protecting the identity of the person who took Nancy? So that would be a direct way of saying, you know, I know who did it. But I'm not speculating because, you know, if you just ask, how do you know? If you. If you just ask, do you know who it is? Then the question is, well, how do you know? Did you have a dream? Did you. Did you think it up? Did you hear it on the news? So we don't want those. Those. Those loopholes in the question. And then, of course, the direct. If he doesn't have a solid alibi, you want to ask if he did, you don't want to ask, are you responsible? Because, again, you may think, well, you know, I should have stayed a little longer. I should have called her back. You know, I feel bad. So I feel. Yes, I feel responsible. And that's. That's the loophole. If they fail. Yeah, I feel responsible. You want to ask, were you directly involved? So did you deliberately cause Nancy's disappearance? There's the key there, the deliberate.

Nancy Grace (19:41)

You know, George, I think I would ask direct questions like you're stating, such as, did Nancy Guthrie have dinner with you and your wife, Annie, the night before she disappeared? Did you drive her home that night? Did you see her go into her home through the garage door? Did you see the garage door close? Did you go directly home after that? If for any. Was there any reason. And wait, no, you don't want that. That's too open. Did you return to Nancy's home later that night? Direct questions that are more of a yes, no answer. Is that what you're saying? Georgia Levo.

George Olivo (20:24)

Yes. Every question has got to be a yes or no answer. But here's the thing. All the questions that you just lined up there, Nancy, they're all great questions, but they were. They are what I would be. Would consider secondary issues. Those are all secondary issues. Primary issue is, did you do it? Secondary issue is the mode and methodology and where were you and how did you do it? And although those are all secondary issues, so here's the thinking behind it. If I ask him a question, you know, did you directly cause Nancy's disappearance? And he passes the test, like they say, with flying colors, quote, unquote. And they're asking him the right questions on the actual involvement, direct or indirect involvement, and he passes. All those secondary issues are irrelevant. Right, because he passed. He didn't do it. But if he fails that, then you can go into what's called, you know, breakout exams if you want. Or quite frankly, it's in the interrogation process that you get all those secondary details once he fails the test.

Nancy Grace (21:24)

Okay, George, I thought I would be leading him up the garden path and then dropping the bombshell on him. In other words, leading him up to that moment and then asking him, did you directly have anything to do with Nancy's disappearance? But you're saying, no, don't do that.

George Olivo (21:43)

No, no. Well, it can't really be done that way because polygraph's not set up that way where people don't realize. It's not really designed to be like a Q and A session. Polygraph is very, very short and concise. Really, really. We're only using like six or seven questions at most and there's only a couple, maybe two or three that are going to even be relevant questions. The others are comparison questions and baseline questions. And you know, it'. You know, what people don't realize is that polygraph, when it's done legitimately, when it's done correctly, not the stuff you see on, you know, the, some of these talk shows and crazy things, but when it's done correctly by law enforcement, it's a very controlled process. Even the sequence of the question that's part of the format have to be asked in a certain order. And we're really only asking very small number of questions on that test, so we're not asking like a bunch of Q&As. And while the polygraph is running, it doesn't work that way.

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Nancy Grace (25:55)

In addition to reports the Guthrie family passed polygraphs new images from Nancy Guthrie's yard emerging Dave Mack, Crime stories Investigative reporter Tell me about the images.

Dave Mack (26:09)

Well, you know the shocking part of this, Nancy, is that the images that we have now been told about show the time just prior to the alleged kidnapping and the time directly after it. When I say up to before, I mean the day before and the time it starts with picks back up when police are on the scene at the investigation about 12:15. But Nancy, we're talking about the backyard, the swimming pool area and the side of the house of Nancy Guthrie's house.

Nancy Grace (26:41)

Dave Mack when you're saying the side of the house around the pool area, I find that very, very interesting. Because Nanos is saying this new video doesn't mean anything. But isn't there footage? Let's see that aerial footage, please. Control room of the FBI. This is from our friends at FOX News. Combing through the side of the home, the entire pool area. And if you stay on it, you will see, I believe it's the first guy walking, turn around and take photos around the gate. What about that, Dave Mack?

Dave Mack (27:21)

We're talking about the photos that were taken off from the house from security cameras, thumbnail photos that were taken up to the day before the kidnapping occurred and then pick right back up with police during the investigation. But according to what we're being told, they don't have photos of the time in question when Nancy Guthrie was taken from the home. So they have it right up to that point and then right after, but not during.

Nancy Grace (27:55)

That's what I find that very curious. To Scott Eicher joining us, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI cellular analysis survey team known as CAST. He is a historical cellular analysis expert, former FBI, 22 years, former homicide detective at Norfolk, Virginia PD currently with Precision cellular analysis. Scott, isn't that quite the coincident that Nanos is saying, oh, don't look over here, this means nothing. First he said, there is no video. We're never going to have video. Nancy Guthrie didn't have a subscription. Then in a Herculean feet a miracle, Google, out of trillions of data points finds Nancy Guthrie's porch cam and finds the porch guy. Now we've got more images, thumbnails. Who's to say there's not more? And what about the coincidence that it's of the pool area and backyard and Nan is just saying that's nothing. But we see the FBI combing through the pool area and the backyard, even taking photos. Why and why do the photos lead up to the moment she's kidnapped and then pick up after the moment she's kidnapped?

Scott Eicher (29:17)

Well, if you remember back when we first got these videos of the porch guy, we said, and I said they're going to keep digging, right? They're going to keep digging and they're going to keep digging and keep digging. That's pushing it onto Google and the FBI, if they get different sets of data to comb through all this data and to find these little thumbnails of the side of the house and the pool, backyard stuff like very important. I think you're showing a timeline of when those cameras were working and when they weren't working. And think about looking at the camera or the thumbnails of the pool area prior to Ms. Guthrie going missing. Has anything been moved since when she after she was kidnapped? Did was the gate open afterwards? Was it closed before? So those are things that I think Mr. Nanos just is not thinking through his answers before he's giving it to the media that there is going to be some information that could be helpful in those thumbnail photos.

Nancy Grace (30:28)

Scott Eicher, don't move. Let me see that aerial video again. Scott Eicher just gave me another thought. The aerial video. Dave Mack. They were really coming through the backyard in the pool area. And this is after Pima county sheriffs had already processed the saying the feds are back. Isn't it true that a dog started going crazy the night Nancy was kidnapped? And wouldn't that abut her backyard and pool area?

Dave Mack (31:02)

Dude. The home in question actually faces the Nancy Guthrie's backyard. And the neighbor said that between 2 and 2:30 of the morning in question that their dog started losing his cookies and was just barking like crazy. Something the dog did not normally do. But Nancy, even more than that, that when the neighbors were looking at their own video camera surveillance cameras at their home, that they have two cameras facing the front and two facing the back. The two facing the back of their home is closest to Nancy Guthrie's home. And during that time period where the dog was barking, where between 2 and 2:30 in the morning, their video cameras were not. Their security cameras were not connecting via WI fi. They were shut down. The two furthest away from Nancy Guthrie's home were still connecting. But the two closest to Nancy Guthrie's home not connecting by WI fi to

Nancy Grace (32:00)

Brian Fitzgibbons joining us Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security leading a team of investigators around the world finding missing people, including extractions from Mexico. He's at uspasecurity.com former Marine and Iraqi War vet Fitz Gibbons. You know what this is telling me? The dog goes crazy behind the pool area. The FBI is searching the pool area and taking photos. This is from our friends at Fox. The neighbor with the dog, WI FI is jammed. When the dog's going crazy between 2 and 3am in the morning. That tells me. Let's see the aerial view, please. That at least one of the kidnappers came through the neighbor's yard and entered Nancy's yard. The dog goes crazy. Their videos jammed pool area. Get it?

Brian Fitzgibbons (33:04)

Yeah, Very possible. Nancy And I think this all amplifies something that we've been extensively saying from the beginning that we. We don't know when what the timestamp on this ring video of the perp on the porch is from. And that we do know. Now, the new information that we do have some data coming from the cameras in the backyard, which. Which leads us to add a little bit to this story, that it's very possible that some of the early reporting of forced entry through the back of Mrs. Guthrie's house was indeed accurate and that they're. They're highlighting this through this new information

Nancy Grace (33:49)

to all three of you. Help me unravel this. We've got the porch guy. We believe there was an accomplice. Did they. Did one of the accomplices come through the neighbor's yard? Why do I care? Even though the video was jammed the night of. What about other nights? The FBI honing in on Jan.11 and Jan.24, which, by the way, Dave, Mac, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of those on weekends? January 11th, January 24th, and then, of course, January 31st, the night that she's kidnapped, into the early morning hours of February 1, which was a weekend. It was a Saturday night, going into Sunday morning. All three on weekends?

Dave Mack (34:48)

Yep, each one.

Nancy Grace (34:49)

What does that tell me? Somebody that worked during the week and could do this on weekends. Typically, that's what it tells you when someone only strikes on weekends. Maybe not here, but typically that's what it tells you. Okay, hold on. Go with me, Dave Mack. All three on weekends. All three in the middle of the night, if they went through the neighbor's yard. What about the video? They didn't jam the video on January and January 24th. Can we get that? See where I'm going with this?

Dave Mack (35:27)

Yep, I do see where you're going. And, you know, that's why the FBI has been going in the neighborhood, Nancy, looking at Jan.11 and Jan.24. And in fact, one of the neighbors sat down with the FBI who watched their nest or ring doorbell video in the home. The FBI watched it with the homeowner as they scrolled through the video from these specific nights, not bothering to take it, just looking at it right then and there. So they are focused on January 11, January 24, and they are looking at all through this neighborhood for any scrap of evidence they can find. And I think the zeroing in on this is proven by some of the things we're already finding out, some of the things we've seen there. We're showing the video that was taken the night around between 2:30 and 2:50 behind about 2 and a half miles behind Nancy Guthrie's home. We do have the neighbor reporting the stranger in the neighborhood. Remember that was around January 11th.

Nancy Grace (36:31)

Well, you know what, looking in this video. Hold on, I don't want to lose a thought. Dave, I'll circle right back to you. Scott Eicher joining us, digital forensics expert. Again, Nano said at the get go, that car video, not so much. Well, it is. I wonder and that video is from our friends at FOX News, by the way, Scott Eicher, if that same yard cam can be resurrected for Jan.11 and January when we think the porch guy was in the neighborhood to try to catch vehicles going by. Because you know, they test ran it, not just on foot. They had to get there somehow. They didn't drop in from a helicopter, for Pete's sake. They drove there and they were testing it out. I'd want to see that yard cam from 11 and 24 as well.

Scott Eicher (37:23)

I agree. If you're, if you're going to go do this type of crime, you're going to pre scout it first. Right. You've got to go out and kind of get an idea of what the, what the property is like, where the points of access. So if you're going to do that ahead of time, there hopefully can be footage. Again, we know that the Guthrie's did not have a subscription, so that causes a big problem. But have Google continue to push through those dates and times, get the video from the neighbors those dates and times, trying to catch someone suspicious in that area at that time.

Nancy Grace (38:02)

Mm. So, Scott Eicher, how did they get these new thumbprints? They're thumbprints now. Maybe there'll be more. It ain't over yet. It ain't over yet. How did they get these? We were told by Nanos there's nothing. Then there's something. Now there's nothing else. And now there's something else. There could be more. Iker, how are they doing it?

Scott Eicher (38:22)

Yeah, these thumbnail little photos are, you know, not very good quality and very small. They're not like we could see with the video at the front porch. So they're going to be tough to kind of analyze. But that's kind of just a, you know, I have Nest cameras and when I get an indication there's someone at my front door, it sends me a little small picture of what the camera saw and then I can go into the app and look at it more detailed. But it sends me a quick little thumbnail photo and that's what they got from Google.

Nancy Grace (38:57)

Also tonight we are getting reports that the Guthrie family car has been returned has been returned. I find that to be significant. To Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, USPA nationwide security. Do you find that significant as it relates to the Guthrie family and accusations being made against them?

Brian Fitzgibbons (39:21)

Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully we can finally put this to bed with regards to the Guthrie family. As we've said before, there were hundreds of investigators on this case, certainly many of them assigned to eliminate the possibility of a family connection here. The vehicle has been extensively searched and returned. Polygraphs have been done, and hopefully that narrative can be put to bed at this point.

Nancy Grace (39:51)

Dave, Mac, what can you tell me about Uber ride video? We've seen it in many, many cases. We've used it in many, many cases. I mean, who's to say it was. It wasn't a Tesla that gets a 360 degree view? We don't know that. But what if there are just a myriad of possibilities? Where's the Uber video? We know the Uber driver has been cleared.

Dave Mack (40:17)

Yes.

Nancy Grace (40:17)

First of all, let's just start at the beginning. Why? Where does an Uber fit into this timeline? Let's just start with that.

Scott Eicher (40:24)

Okay?

Dave Mack (40:24)

Nancy Guthrie got took an Uber from her home to Annie's home, to her daughter Annie's home for game night, you know, having dinner and playing games. So that an Uber driver picked Nancy Guthrie up at her home at 5:32pm she then took her directly to Annie's home, dropped her off, and went on about her merry way. I say her. I'm not sure if we're talking male or female right now about the Uber driver, but we do know that the earliest parts of this investigation, the sheriff's department detectives sat down with the Uber driver. The Uber driver gave the law enforcement videos from the car in for the time in question and gave them every answer they could possibly want and was immediately cleared because, remember, Nancy Guthrie took the Uber from her home to her daughter's home. She did not take an Uber from Annie's home back to her own home.

Nancy Grace (41:20)

Okay, what about it, Scott? Iker, what benefit would there be in us seeing the Uber video?

Scott Eicher (41:29)

Well, there's several different things we're trying to make this timeline that we have concrete. Right. Well, all of what the family has said, when she was talking, when she was over at Annie's house, when she got home. So that's one piece of the timeline we can verify through the video of the from the Uber driver. But also things you can see is how's Ms. Guthrie dressed? Right. Is she wearing the clothes that she was dropped off in? According to the family, when she was Kidnapped? Was she? Were those clothes at the house that she was wearing earlier that day? We've used, you know, Uber videos, Lyft videos, in many different cases, to see things that are not intended. There's, you know, the people that are in the car, and then there's a camera facing, like, forward towards the. The front of the car. And we pick up a ton of different information, license plates. What if someone was following Ms. Guthrie that night? And to make sure that she had left the house, Was there a video of that from the Uber driver of someone following her, following the Uber vehicle to Annie's house? I mean, there's a hundred possibilities. That's just throwing it into the weeds, but why not look at that video and make sure you've got every bit of piece of information you can from it?

Nancy Grace (42:52)

Fitzgibbons. He's right. Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security Because a lot of nights, my mom, who lives with me, will be getting her ready for bed, and she will just be too tired to change into her PJs. So she typically wears, like, a jogging outfit or a cute little velour jogging thing. And sometimes she'll just Once she'll say, I'm just too tired. I'll sleep in this. So I'd like to know just what Iker said. Was she wearing those clothes that are pictured in the Uber video? What was her demeanor? Did she look ill? Did she seem incoherent in any way? I don't know what I'm looking for. I don't know it till I see it. That's why I think the video should be released.

Brian Fitzgibbons (43:41)

Absolutely. And I think at this point, it can certainly help if we had a description of the last known clothing that Nancy was wearing.

Nancy Grace (43:52)

To your point, you know, another thing has just happened. Nano says he knows the motive. What happened? Dave Mack.

Dave Mack (44:05)

You know, Sheriff Nanos has said many things during the course of this investigation that are problematic, and this is another one, because Sheriff Nano says, yeah, we know the motive. We know why this happened, but he is not willing to share that with the rest of us. But he adds, this is a targeted event. He also says, well, wait a minute. Kidnappers could still be out there. You need to be. He's actually saying to watch out for yourself. So in one breath, he says, we know the motive, and we know it's a targeted event. But then turning right around to say, nobody's safe. I mean, not something you want to hear from the sheriff of your county,

Nancy Grace (44:43)

you know, Brian Fitzgibbons. That's exactly what happened in the Idaho case where four beautiful University of Idaho students were slaughtered. The local law enforcement came out and said, this was targeted. You're all safe. And then backtracked and went, hey, everybody, lock your doors. You're not safe. This is very eerily reminiscent of that faux pas.

Brian Fitzgibbons (45:06)

And I'll add in one more recent one. After the horrific shooting at Brown University, Mayor Brett Smiley was all over the cameras saying, there's no threat to the public, et cetera, et cetera. Right. The situation's well in hand. There's no continuing threat. Why government and officials and law enforcement officials say things like there's no threat to the public is beyond me. Time and again, it's proven that they have no rationale or logical basis to make such a claim. And it shows that their main goal there is to control the narrative and keep people, you know, feeling secure in their power. So it was a number of missteps here by Nanos.

Scott Eicher (46:02)

This is just one of them.

Nancy Grace (46:03)

Let's take a listen to share of nanos.

George Olivo (46:06)

We believe we know why he did

Scott Eicher (46:07)

this, and we believe

Nancy Grace (46:11)

that it was

George Olivo (46:12)

targeted, but we can't.

Scott Eicher (46:14)

We're not 100% sure of that. And so it'd be silly to tell

Nancy Grace (46:17)

people, yeah, don't worry about it. You're.

Scott Eicher (46:20)

You're not his target.

George Olivo (46:21)

Don't think for a minute that because

Scott Eicher (46:23)

it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe.

Nancy Grace (46:27)

No, keep. Keep your wits about you. From our friends at NBC, there's Nanos at it again. Okay, go with me here on this. What about it, Iker? That he doesn't know who did it, but he can divine why they did it for ransom? That would be a plausible explanation to explain away what nanos is saying. Or what about this financial scam, someone connected to her in some way that was taking advantage of or planning to take advantage of her financially.

Scott Eicher (47:00)

I definitely agree. And it's. I would more term it as a robbery than a financial scam because they're forcing, basically, someone to go to an ATM and withdraw money. I mean, that's a robbery. That's a threat of violence or to that extent. So if. If we're dealing with that possibility, maybe analysis is inferring that is, that they grabbed Ms. Guthrie and took her to a bank atm, and then something else happened. We don't know. I wish he would be more specific on the motives that he's found or through the investigation, then we can at least focus our direction.

Nancy Grace (47:45)

You're right, Scott Eicher. And to Brian Fitzgibbons there's many, many a plethora of financial scams to siphon money, steal money from the elderly. Doesn't have to be going to an atm. It could be any number of things. It could be them calling their financial planner and asking for money to be moved. So there's a myriad of things that a financial scam could entail. In this case, have they found evidence of those financial scams and is there a money trail that could lead us to the perp? Or is this straight out for ransom? Ransom gone wrong?

Brian Fitzgibbons (48:24)

Yeah, in my opinion, right this leads more to ransom. Not not many of these financial scams, at least ones that take place face to face, are going to happen at 2 in the morning over a weekend. This is very tip those. Those are very typically, especially with the elderly, are going to happen in broad daylight when banks are open, when access codes can be granted to ATMs and things like that. For this to happen at 2 in the morning leads me to believe that this is more towards the ransom gone wrong than a direct financial scam targeting an elderly woman.

Nancy Grace (49:13)

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George Olivo (51:54)

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Nancy Grace (51:55)

Uncovered Repairs Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We learn the FBI is back in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood questioning neighbors. They are questioning specifically about January 11th between the hours of 9pm and and 12am why? We can confirm the prevailing theory is the porch guy was on Nancy's front porch. Jan.11. Jan.11 is taking center stage. Also scrutiny on neighbors that had a rental home and quickly vacated as soon as Nancy Guthrie goes missing. Dave Mack, Crime Stories Investigative reporter what can you tell me about the FBI back and Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood going door to door? What do they want?

Dave Mack (52:56)

They want any kind of video that they can possibly find from ring cameras, nest cameras, any kind of surveillance video. And they want to talk to everybody about January 11th. You know we've had the two videos or the two photos rather. We have one where porch guy who has the gun in the backpack and then we had the other photo. There we go where he's not wearing a backpack and there is no gun. Well, now we know the no gun photo, no backpack photo. That's why the FBI is back in the neighborhood and they're talking to everyone in there about January 11th, specifically 9pm to 12 midnight.

Nancy Grace (53:35)

Straight out to our panel of experts to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit podcast Body Bags With Jo Scott Morgan, weigh in.

Joseph Scott Morgan (53:49)

Well, you know, the fact that we have timestamps now, Nancy, is significant because you can go back. I don't know how far back they've gone with the videography that they have in hand. And what I'm talking about are all the peripheral areas. Did they have anything that goes back to that date in January where they can see a potential suspect moving around in that environment? And also, let me throw this out there to you. The backpack that he's wearing. And we're back on this again, relative to the Ozark backpack, I think that it's critical here to try to understand, did he acquire this after that date in preparation of everything that he's been doing? It's also been stated that that holster that he is wearing is also a purchase from Walmart, which is where Ozark is also sold as well. Now, granted, he could have bought this online. He could have gone to a thrift store and picked it up. But it just seems like a coincidence at this point in time. Not a coincidence, rather, that he acquires all this stuff and he changes his appearance. I stated some time ago that I felt as though that whoever did this had been casing her home. All right. That they had familiarity with this environment, that they were trying to understand it, trying to get a feel for the environment before they take her in whatever form that they took her, whether it was walking out the door with her, luring her out, or whatever potentially happened in this particular event. And I think that that goes to this narrative, Nancy.

Nancy Grace (55:13)

Also joining us, in addition to Dave Mack and Jeff Scott Morgan, Brian Fitzgibbons is with US Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators finding and extracting missing people from around the world. Former Marine, Iraqi war vet Brian. This is big. This is big because now we have evidence directly linking January 11th to Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. We have January 24 linked to her disappearance, and we have the 31st bordering into the first. All three of those on weekend nights. That is extremely probative. When I would work up cases to present to juries, I would always look to see what night of the week incidents were occurring specifically in, let's just say a serial murder case, a serial rape case, stalking cases, because that gives me a bead on who is my perp. He's always doing this on weekend nights. Why? But that said, the fact that we now have somewhat of a timestamp is significant. Why?

Brian Fitzgibbons (56:31)

Absolutely. It adds a tremendous amount of color behind the profile that we're building of this suspect. Why was it just on the weekends? Is this somebody who traveled a distance, who was maybe working somewhere Monday through Friday, elsewhere during the week, traveling to the Tucson area on the weekend to conduct this reconnaissance? And the second thing I'd like to add is it also corroborates other information that has been revealed from the investigation. Nancy's neighbor reported to numerous media outlets that in mid January, she wasn't sure of a specific date, that she saw someone, a strange person, walking around the neighborhood. And this wasn't a typical walker that they would see or somebody in exercise clothing that somebody was walking up and down the neighborhood. Now, this has been widely reported, and now with this date and time stamp on the perp or the suspect on Nancy's porch, it certainly provides more validation to that tip.

Nancy Grace (57:37)

The mass suspect seen on Nancy's front porch three weeks before her abduction, it's been narrowed down definitely Jan.11. Definitely Jan.11. To Todd Shipley. Joining us, digital cybercrime Expert, former detective sergeant Reno, 25 years in law enforcement, author of Surviving a cyber attack, Securing social media, protecting your home. He is at darkintel.info. i know on the outside looking in to civilians. This is not a big deal. It is a big deal. Now we're looking for sure at January 11, January 24, and January 31, February 1. This narrows down the identity of the suspect. Now, people can think back, where was X on these dates? Why was he out late that night? Just. That's just a small example, but digitally speaking, forensically speaking, how will this help us?

Scott Eicher (58:43)

Well, one of the things that has

Joseph Scott Morgan (58:45)

happened now is that they've taken that

Scott Eicher (58:47)

Nest camera and gone to the next level of investigation, the general, you know, connecting to it and getting data off is the average forensic work that is done every day. What happened in this case, I'm pretty sure, is that they actually did what

Joseph Scott Morgan (59:03)

we call a chip off.

Scott Eicher (59:04)

They took the device apart, went to the motherboard, took the actual memory chips off, and read them directly to get this extra data that was there that they couldn't get otherwise because it was deleted or it's otherwise removed from the average ability to get to it. So they did a very sophisticated process, got the data off there, and now had new evidence that we didn't have. And this took them a while to do. It wasn't something that was easily done because it's partly destructive when it takes this kind of technique to get the data off. And so they were able to get that information and produce new photos that show exactly when this guy Was there at a previous day.

Nancy Grace (59:45)

Back to Dave Mack, the FBI in Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood in the last 24 hours, asking about neighbors who moved out before Nancy vanished. They're also keenly interested in a home that is under construction. And they want the names of all the crew members who worked on the house. Bam. What about it?

Dave Mack (60:09)

Dave Mack, Nancy, dead on accurate. Let's take them one at a time here. The FBI was back in the neighborhood and looking at these homes under construction and wanting to get all of the employees names, numbers, contact info so they can start running down timelines on every employee that was working on these homes under construction. Now, we've talked about this neighborhood before. It is a very upscale neighborhood. And there was one home, particularly in this neighborhood, that was for rent. They don't have a lot of rentals here. In this one rental home, the neighbors moved out immediately after Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. Now read into that what you will, but they were there until the kidnapping and then gone. So we've got the rental home and we've got construction work.

Nancy Grace (61:02)

Okay. Before we start a vigilante hunt for the people that moved out, you remember how everyone has been attacking Mrs. Guthrie's son in law and one of his bandmates in some band he plays or played in. I mean, the bandmate's been having to hide in the home. And he has children, by the way. He and his wife have children, I learned. But that said, before we start pitchforks and torches outside the homes of the people that moved out, I want to point out that the idea of crew members on construction sites have been notoriously singled out in the past, and it's often been correct. It's going to be hard to put those crew members names back together again. But that said, I find that really interesting. The FBI back in the neighborhood trying to determine who worked on a construction crew. Do I have that correct? Dave mack?

Dave Mack (62:12)

Yes, you have it exactly correct. They want to know who was there and when they were there. You know, you've got a lot of day workers that do construction work. And depending on the work being done on any given day, Nancy, it could be regular crew that do the work on a regular basis, or it could be people we picked up at, you know, on the way in to do one day or two days of labor. They're trying to track everyone down. So it's going to be a herculean effort. One I thought they would have gone through before now.

Nancy Grace (62:40)

Well, they may be just learning about the construction crew, but. But that said, Joe, Scott Morgan, you know the case, Jennifer Kessie, you and I have worked on it for years. Focus now on the construction crews working along her set of condos and behind them at the time Jennifer goes missing. They never have tracked them down because as Dave Mack just reported, a lot of them were day workers that you pick up at the grocery store, standing out in the parking lot that need work for the day. It's really hard to find them, some of them being illegals, you know, just all sorts of problems. Tracking down a construction crew.

Joseph Scott Morgan (63:20)

Yeah, it is. But I got to. You know where I'm going to start, start. I'm going to start with all of these cameras that are on homes around there, and any of those cameras that are pointed toward that construction site. And guess what I'm going to start doing? I'm going to start going frame by frame of every bit of data that I can during the daylight hours of that construction site. We're going to pull those license plates off of all of those trucks, you know, because construction sites, what do you think about? You think about big pickup trucks, you think about delivery trucks, all these sorts of things. And that's where the investigation should start. Relative to this, you find the site, the site foreman, you go back, you press him. Do you have anybody here that works in this area? I don't care if they are a day labor or somebody that's here consistently, or did one of these consistent people bring in a cousin, said, hey man, can you slip my cousin a few bucks? You know, he'll carry a bucket of nails for us or plaster or something like that. You have to press, press, press, press on this bit of information. This is gold, Nancy, relative to that site. And also something I would be very curious about, points of observation going back to that construction site. What could you see from that construction site? For instance, looking back toward Ms. Guthrie's home? Is it even visible from that perspective? You know, with construction workers, they climb all over these structures, the skeleton of these structures. They have a POV that nobody else has. They can look down into areas. They see a little old lady living in a house, perhaps, perhaps they frame her out as an easy target. So these are the things. I think this is an evidence rich source here. I think they need to press on it, and hopefully they're doing that right now.

Nancy Grace (65:01)

Here's another tidbit of information. We know, Joe Scott, that whoever the construction crew is that they're interested in would have to have been there on January 11, probably before that, because if one of them is involved and That's a big if because whoever it is is smart enough to outsmart local sheriffs and now take the feds on a run down a wild goose chase. They'd have to be there before January 11, the first day of interest, because they didn't just see her home that day and come up with a plan. Right. They saw the home, they thought about it and then went in the neighborhood. So it's somebody that was there, Jan11, at least. Now, did they work on the crew that whole time? No. They could have come back to the neighborhood. But that said, that's the origin point. Jan11. Agree? Disagree.

Joseph Scott Morgan (66:02)

Yeah, I agree. And also this idea of casing that I mentioned earlier, you know, it kind of got the bait in the, the blood in the water at this point in time. If they're, if they, if that's from an observable position where you're looking back at her home, then that puts blood in the water relative to one individual perhaps showing back up to say, you know what, let me take a closer look here. And you go back to that date, that Jan.11 day. And that's the moment in time where they step in. And who knows, they may have. They may have approached from a different perspective and looked at this residence from that perspective. And they're not caught on the camp. They could be kind of circulating around this environment. You never know relative to the perspective that they have. There's something that drew this individual's eye. I think that. I still think that people are aware because out of all the residences in this neighborhood, they focus on her neighbor, on her home, Ms. Guthrie's home, out of everybody else's. They targeted her.

Nancy Grace (66:59)

Nancy, Also, we are learning, investigator seeking video, As I mentioned, 9pm to midnight, Jan.11, and are also interested in a, quote, suspicious vehicle spotted on Via Entrada. That's a street near Nancy Guthrie's home around 10am 10am Jan.31. Interesting. What can you tell me about that, Dave Mack? A suspicious vehicle on a street, via Entrada, 10am Jan. 31st.

Dave Mack (67:36)

Right. And the FBI is looking for every possible surveillance camera, ring, doorbell camera that they can find, pointing towards the road to get a snap, a shot of this suspicious vehicle. And they're asking for a block of time from M2, 11:30am on January 31, the morning before the attack, the kidnapping that took place later that night. So we're talking about the morning of. So this suspicious vehicle on a road nearby. Now, suspicious, not exactly sure what that means, but it stuck out, Nancy, and it stuck out during the daytime. That says a lot.

Nancy Grace (68:15)

Again, let me stress that no one on that construction crew, no neighbor that moved out has been named as a suspect or a person of interest. These are lines of inquiry by the FBI and it gives us an idea as to where they're headed in the investigation. Again, the last thing you want, would you agree, Fitzgibbons, is to rush down the wrong avenue and name or suspect a POI or a suspect prematurely. That's the first thing you will hear on cross examination if there is ever a trial. Isn't it true you named Brian Fitzgibbons as your first person of interest and now you want the jury to convict my guy? You don't want to hear that. So no lynch mobs. Agree?

Brian Fitzgibbons (69:08)

Absolutely. And this case has drawn so much public attention that, that, you know, law enforcement needs to keep any persons of interest or suspects very close to the chest at this point. Not only to keep the. The lynch mob, so to speak, from forming, but from a very functional standpoint. They don't want the suspect or this individual to have really any information about what they do or don't know. So totally agree there.

Nancy Grace (69:46)

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. To whoever

Nancy Grace (70:00)

has her or knows where she is,

Nancy Grace (70:05)

that

Nancy Grace (70:08)

it's never too late and you're not lost or alone and it is never too late to do the right thing. And we are here and we believe,

Nancy Grace (70:32)

and we believe in the essential goodness

Nancy Grace (70:36)

of every human being and it's never too late.

Nancy Grace (70:41)

Straight out to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter joining us tonight, Dave Mack. Just what we don't need, allegations of misconduct, tampering with evidence within the Pima County Sheriff's Department.

Dave Mack (70:54)

What the allegation is that the Pima County Sheriff's office has prevented evidence from being turned over in a timely manner to the FBI and allowing others to investigate this. The tampering is holding back withholding information and evidence from others who could actually provide possible solutions to the problems that exist. And we know that he that Nanos has prevented the FBI from coming in right off the bat. And that's where this goes back to now.

Nancy Grace (71:23)

Claims of tampering with evidence, allegations of misconduct. Now a recall effort on Nanos. What's happening, Dave?

Dave Mack (71:31)

You know, Nancy, this started last week. Local politicians have just had their fill. They're embarrassed and humiliated with what Nanos has done. Plus there also was an interview with him under oath in December with Nanos where he said he had never been suspended in the line of duty. And that turned out to be not true. So Nanos is Really under the gun here. And a recall vote is being sought. They have 90 days to to get all the signatures necessary to actually move forward with a recall vote. And it has begun in earnest now.

Nancy Grace (72:05)

Question in order for a recall vote, I believe they need 100,000 signatures to make that happen. Here's my concern to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security leading a team of investigators around the the world to find missing people including extractions from Mexico. He is a former marine and an Iraqi war vet. Recall maybe a good idea, maybe not, but not right now. In the middle of this investigation. Nanos attention is already diverted between this investigation, claims of misconduct and tampering. Of course he's got his reality show to handle. But that said, he does not need another diversion of attention.

Brian Fitzgibbons (73:00)

Yeah. And it's important to remember here that Sheriff Nanos is an elected official. And I know that that's not, that's not 100% uniform across the country where law enforcement officials are indeed elected. But there in Pima county he is. And what this seems to be is political opportunism bringing about this recall. And it's certainly going to add quite a bit to the plate of Sheriff Nanos where he's going to be worried about protecting his politically elected position.

Nancy Grace (73:33)

Now Dave Mack, do you recall the discovery of a backpack near Nancy Guthrie's home? And after a lot of media attention it was determined the backpack was not connected to Nancy Guthrie's kidnap. In fact, there were items in the backpack that belonged to a child, a juvenile. And the weathering of the backpack suggests that it had been out in the elements for a really long time predating Nancy's kidnapping. Do you recall that?

Dave Mack (74:04)

I do. It was found in an area that is often used by homeless people looking for a place to get out of the elements. And there were other items found in there that were indicative of having been out in the elements for a long time. And so while it was a backpack and while it was near the home of Nancy Guthrie, it really was not part of the case.

Nancy Grace (74:26)

Over a month after 84 year old Nancy Guthrie vanishes from her Tucson home, the investigation has taken a very disturbing turn. Allegations of misconduct in tampering with evidence, information leaks, coordination failures between various agencies now taking center stage. When all eyes, all attention should be on finding Nancy Guthrie. More scrutiny around the investigation and how the evidence has been handled. Now mounting questions about the handling of the evidence as the investigation enters a quote, more complicated phase. Now I want to go back to not just the backpack But a recent discovery found near Nancy Guthrie's home in a wash. What that means is where the water, torrential water, has washed out the soil. Looks kind of like a dry creek bed. That's what a wash is. Now I want to show you what Adrienne F. Posted on X. I believe we're seeing tan Capri shoes, a bedspread and a knee brace. Am I missing anything, Dave Mack what

Dave Mack (75:50)

you're looking at here, Nancy, is you're looking in an arroyo that has this pants, the tan pants that are seen in that arroyo, the tan shoes that you mentioned before and a knee brace. And all of this near Nancy Guthrie's home. It is shockingly close to the home and you would think that this would be a big deal finding pants, shoes and a knee brace.

Nancy Grace (76:17)

Thoughts on tan pants, shoes, knee brace and bedspread, whether they are connected or not, don't you think? Straight out to Todd Shipley. Joining us, Todd Digital, cybercrime expert, former Detective Sergeant Reno, NV PD, 25 years in law enforcement@darkintel.info should that have at least been gathered and processed to determine if it's real, if it's connected in any way?

Scott Eicher (76:52)

Well, certainly you would think that in this kind of case they would have been gathering everything they can find even if they don't necessarily think it's relative at the time. Because once somebody calls something in like that, where are they going to go? They don't have any information now. So yes, they should be collecting everything

Joseph Scott Morgan (77:08)

they can find and trying to identify whether it's related or not.

Nancy Grace (77:12)

According to Adrian F. Posting on Social here are the items found today. Exploring with Jim and were called in JLR investigates call the items into authorities now. I want to address that to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joining us, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and he is a star of a hit podcast Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. More important for our purposes tonight, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death investigations under his belt, deaths of all sorts. Of course, there are only a few alternatives. Natural causes, accident, suicide, unexplained and homicide. That's what he's done his whole life. Now when we get information, it doesn't have to come from law enforcement. The FBI doesn't have to be walking along the side of the road in a hazmat outfit and find this citizens can find information and call it in. Then when you put the citizen up on the stand, Joe Scott Morgan, that citizen can be cross examined until the cows come home until the defense attorney is blue in the face. But that doesn't mean the evidence isn't real just because law enforcement didn't find it.

Joseph Scott Morgan (78:47)

You're absolutely right. It doesn't invalidate what a citizen might find. As a matter of fact, I've been involved in a number of cases where you have pedestrians that are just kind of walking along the way where bits of item, bits of what turned out to be evidence were recovered. They found weapons, shell casings. Hell, Nancy, I've had. I've had cases where a person's dog has. Has drugged human remains up in the yard. So, yeah, the cops don't have to be directly involved in it to validate the evidence. So anything that they're out there, and our colleague mentioned this just a moment ago, right now, they don't really have bupkis. And so anything that's out there that is within the spectrum of the vicinity of her home has evidentiary value. It's a. It's a matter of evaluating it to try to see what it's worth at this point in time. But in order to do that, it has to be documented, it has to be preserved, it has to be collected, and then it has to be brought in for processing. If you don't do these things, then it ain't worth gunpowder to blow it to hell. You've just got photos by some citizen out there that's saying, well, yeah, we found this, but it was never moved on. So everything in this case, Nancy, is more than critical.

Nancy Grace (80:02)

Jo Scott Morgan, you've been in court so many times that as an expert witness, regardless of who finds the evidence, and maybe that person can be attacked on cross exam. Did the evidence exist? Is the evidence real? Every witness you put on the stand is not going to be a nun, a priest, or a virgin. Let's just go with that, okay? But the reason I care about this blanket is because there is a theory that Nancy Guthrie was wrapped in a blanket or wrapped up in something there on the front porch and transported. Wrapped up. Is it true? Don't know. But that's why I care about that blanket, if it's even real. What does the blood tell you? Is that theory possible based on the blood on her front porch?

Joseph Scott Morgan (81:06)

We could go down two roads with this, Nancy. First off, I've had cases where people are bleeding, okay? And say, for instance, a perpetrator is trying to do what is called stem the bleeding, and that can either be an individual that is injured and still alive, or can be an individual that is deceased and suddenly the perpetrator looks down and says, oh, my God, I've got blood. I need to stem. I need to stop the flow or the presentation of blood. That could happen. Okay, I've seen that happen. And then all of a sudden, you know, when you think about this collection that has been identified as Mrs. Guthrie's blood, why does it just suddenly end? And I think that that's a big question and it's a valid question. Or if you've got, if you've got a surface that is so inundated with blood, that would mean a profuse amount of blood in order to have it seep through that medium and have it transfer onto the ground. I think this happened prior to being wrapped.

Nancy Grace (82:04)

So bottom line, is it possible that's a yes? No.

Joseph Scott Morgan (82:08)

JO SCOTT yeah, it's possible. She could have been wrapped up in

Nancy Grace (82:12)

A she is 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile, and every hour and minute and second and

Nancy Grace (82:22)

every long night has been agony since then.

Nancy Grace (82:26)

She is without any medicine. She needs needs it to survive.

Nancy Grace (82:31)

We need your help. In the midst of the search for her mother, Savannah Guthrie, also having to deal with attacks. Why? Why attack a crime victim? Joining me, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, Dr. Bethany Marshall. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her now on Peacock and you can find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com Also with us, Guru PR Guru to the stars, Rob Shooter. He's the author of a hit new book that is climbing the charts on Amazon. It Started With a Whisper. He's also@robsheeter.sudstack.com Some of his clients, the infamous Sean Puffy, aka Diddy, aka Love. Comes Britney Spears. I could go on, but I don't understand why this is happening. Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall. The most recent attack on our friend Savannah Guthrie, crime victim, is because she is considering going back to work.

Prolon Advertiser (83:49)

NANCY I would question all of these haters, all of these criticizers. Do they spend their entire lives with their parents? No. They have work, they pay bills. They take care of their children. They have lives. And you know why they have lives? Because their parents raised them to have lives. NANCY I think everybody who's criticizing Savannah has what we call pathological envy. Pathological envy is the sense that if you have something good, it means I will never get it for myself. And we know Savannah has a lot of wonderful things about her life. She has her sibling group that seems so supportive. She's a star on TV and has a wonderful relationship with her Mother. She has a supportive spouse, two beautiful children. And I think that the haters are so envious. This has put a spotlight on Savannah's life. And when the spotlight went on her life, everybody who was envious just stepped forward.

Nancy Grace (84:54)

Rob Sheeter joining me. Rob, we've all faced various ups and downs in life. That video from our friends at Fox News, by the way. Thank you, Fox. When, as you know, my fiance was murdered, I dropped out of school. My plan was to be a Shakespearean literature teacher at the university level. That dream was dashed. That said, it took me a long time to get it together to go back to school, which I did. But Savannah, on top of facing the kidnap of her mother, her disappearance, her horrible health issues, Mrs. Guthrie's, the specter that her mom may be dead, that she has not survived this ordeal that's looming heavily. But unlike me, I had no responsibility like Savannah because Savannah has children, and that is an overarching responsibility. So it's not just returning to her position at the Today show. It's returning to her two minor children. I mean, that is her priority. In my mind, that is my priority. And I guess I'm projecting, but what do you advise? You know, the other day, who was. Oh, it was Katherine Heigl. Somebody was hating on her for going to a charity event, and she actually engaged with the haters. And I get it. You want to say something back, and you may be right, but is it worth it? I mean, are they worth it? I say no, but what do you do in a situation like this? She's getting hate from every corner, from going back to work to her recent reunion with her Today show co hosts and friends. I think that just poured gas on the fire of the haters claiming, some people claiming that she's part of the plot to kidnap her own mother, that she's trying to cover up for the brother in law. It's crazy talk. So you're the PR guru. What should she do?

Rob Shooter (87:09)

Yeah, professionally. She should tune it out and focus on what really matters, which is her health, her family health, her children. Being a mom is her priority. You have it absolutely right, Nancy. That's not a projection. I've met Savannah many, many times. We have mutual friends together. This is what she wants to do. She wants to be with her kids. And her kids have lost their. Potentially lost their grandmother, too. So she's being a mom, that's her first priority. She will go back to work. She's indicated that she will return to the Today show. We don't have a Date. It's completely mind blowing to me that people have been this cool and I think people are going through is. There's no roadmap to this. We unfortunately all know what it's like to have trauma in our lives. However, to have a parent go missing with very few answers. There is no prototype. There is no standard behavior. There's no roadmap to follow. So Savannah here is a pioneer. What should she do? And I think she should just follow her heart. She's got a deep, deep faith. And so she's, she's really leaning into that. And she's been spending a lot of time here in New York with her friends. I think she's doing everything, she should do everything she needs to do. And let's hope that she can tune this hate out. We should point out, Nancy, though this hate is a minority, most of the response, most of the response has been overwhelming.

Scott Eicher (88:30)

Love.

Nancy Grace (88:31)

Okay, Rob Shooter, maybe I've got the information incorrect here, but aren't you the author of a brand new book that's climbing the charts at Amazon? It started with a whisper. Isn't that you?

Rob Shooter (88:44)

It is me, Nancy. That is my book.

Nancy Grace (88:46)

Okay. And aren't you the star of RobSheeter.substack.com and host of Naughty but Nice podcast? Isn't that true?

Rob Shooter (88:53)

Star of both? Yes.

Nancy Grace (88:55)

Okay. And isn't it true that you are so the so called publicist to the stars? Isn't that you, Rob Shooter?

Rob Shooter (89:01)

That's. I've been called that, Nancy. Yes, I am.

Nancy Grace (89:04)

Okay. And your advice is follow your heart. That's your advice? People pay money for that?

Rob Shooter (89:11)

Really good advice because everybody wants to speak. When I got into crisis management pr, one of the hardest things to teach people was to let it go. You do not have to respond to every single critic out there. They won't be remembered in the moment. Right now we're talking about them, but two, three years from now, we'll be talking about how Savannah handled this with grace and dignity and where her life is then. So I know it does sound flippant. I know it sounds like the obvious, but try and do it yourself. If somebody comes at you at Twitter, try not responding. It's a real skill and I think it's a skill that Savannah has mastered.

Nancy Grace (89:48)

I usually just say thanks for watching because what else can you say? So your advice is follow your heart. Also, don't engage with in warfare with battle with haters because, you know, nobody's paying me thousands of dollars for this advice like they pay you, Rob Shooter. But I would say engaging with them is like mud wrestling with a pig. You get dirty and the pig likes it. So don't do it. Another thing to do. And you can use that if you want to, and you can get good money for that. Rob Shooter, Bethy Marshall, on top of every everything else that she's dealing with, I think she's trying to compartmentalize, which is a ploy of mine. Maybe I'm projecting that one is just too much to think about. Do something else. Put that over there and focus on this. And by achieving something, you slowly, in the back of your mind, process everything that's happened. She was attacked. She's being attacked for even mentioning going back to work. Then how did this happen? Dr. Bethany that when the haters saw a video of her having a little mini reunion, she went back to thank everyone at the Today show set for their support. That seemed to throw gas on the fire. Why did that inflame so many people, those photos of her?

Prolon Advertiser (91:21)

Because, Nancy, they can see that she's loved and that that triggers the envy as well. If she has something good, it means that my life is miserable. But you know, Nancy, the number one thing I tell trauma victims and I work with trauma patients is to reestablish their regular routine. I get very basic with them. Nancy, first of all, validate their feelings. Of course, this is horrible, tragic, terrifying. She must be preoccupied with her mother. So validate the feelings. Then I tell them to drink water. It's that basic, Nancy, to practice what we call sleep hygiene, to go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time every morning, open all the windows and open the curtains in the morning so that she can get sunshine and then go back to your regular routine where there's structure and where there is social support. These people have been her friends and her professional family for many, many, many years. She probably does not have that kind of support in Ariz, her mom, where her mom is. So she needs to go back to the people who love her and who can listen to her. Trauma patients also have to talk about what happened to them as they are ready. Don't ask them too many questions because it will trigger anxiety and trauma and stress. But they have to know that there's a listening ear there somewhere so they can talk about their experience. That's what she has with her husband and with her friends in New York City and with the Today show.

Nancy Grace (92:57)

Joining us now, in addition to Dr. Bethany Marshall and Guru to the Stars, PR celebrity Rob Shooter Dave Mack. Joining me, crime Stories Investigative reporter. There have been so many attacks on her. Remember the attacks regarding the ransom?

Dave Mack (93:16)

Well, Nancy, the attacks about not paying the ransom really go back to things that we are not privy to information between law enforcement and the Guthrie family because we don't know the verse veracity of these claims, these ransom demands. The family does. And the family, from what we had looked at on these videos, they're responding as they're being, I'm guessing, told to respond. This isn't something that they're doing in a vacuum. They actually have a lot of people bending their ear and explaining what to do. I mean, who, who goes through a kidnapping on a regular basis? So the experts are leaning on the family explaining what to do and how to do it. And I'm guessing they're following that instruction.

Nancy Grace (94:01)

Dave Mack, the haters online have even attacked Savannah Guthrie as it relates to her husband, claiming that somehow his job has triggered the kidnap of her 84 year old mother in the middle of the desert. Listen to this. Dave Mack, her husband, his last name is Feldman. He worked for the Clintons the eight years they were in all four US Okay. He started a company called Grover Park. Basically what they were, they were scrubbers. They would scrub the Internet of any

Joseph Scott Morgan (94:38)

bad,

Nancy Grace (94:40)

anything bad that they did not want the public to find out. They would scrape the whole Internet. So where when you did a search, you couldn't find out anything about it.

George Olivo (94:51)

It.

Nancy Grace (94:52)

How much you want to bet because the Clintons are going in front of congress that they struck out to this guy because he was their cleaner?

Dave Mack (95:03)

Oh my gosh.

Nancy Grace (95:04)

Okay. I could listen to her all day long. Okay. And she's taken a lot of correct facts and woven them together with this theory that is Proud Shrimp. Her daughter on TikTok to Rob Shooter joining us. Rob, there have also been attacks on Savannah's looks describe.

Rob Shooter (95:24)

Yeah. People have gone after her for not wearing enough makeup, not looking sad enough, not acting like she's riddled with grief. And there we see Savannah. She looks very different there than what we're used to seeing her on the today show. And I think people might find that a little jarring when they see somebody that normally comes into their living room five days a week looking different. People have had a lot of questions about that. There she is. Without a professional hair and makeup person, she does not have a hairdresser with her in Arizona. She can't win here. Nancy had she traveled to Arizona with a glam squad, had she made these videos when she was in full hair and makeup, then she would have criticism about doing that too. And so my heart breaks for Savannah here because there's always going to be people that are going to criticize her. There she is again with her, her sister and her brother. And she's not looking like she looks on the Today show and she shouldn't look like that either. This is raw Savannah. This is not the Savannah that we see on NBC News. This is real life Savannah, and I think we should all cut her a break. A lot of people out there are confused by this. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt here, but it's cruel. It's really cruel. The only silver lining here, Nancy, and you know, Savannah, too, is she's a really strong person and she has a really strong faith. And as upsetting as this is, she'll get through it. She's gonna be okay.

Nancy Grace (96:51)

To whoever has her or knows where

Nancy Grace (96:55)

she is, that

Nancy Grace (97:02)

it's never too late

Nancy Grace (97:06)

and you're not lost or alone

Nancy Grace (97:13)

and it is never too late to do the right thing. And we are here and we believe and we believe in the essential goodness of every human being. And it's never too late.

Nancy Grace (97:34)

If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, please call 1-800-225-5324 or 520-882-7463. If you wish to remain anonymous, there is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to Nancy's whereabouts. Thank you to our guests, but especially thank you to you for being with us tonight and keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Goodnight friend.

Nancy Grace (98:19)

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Nancy Grace (100:02)

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Nancy Grace (100:51)

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