Nancy Grace (2:45)

Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing Day three what does a mystery car have to do with this? Also, we are learning the DNA found inside Mrs. Guthrie's home is her DNA. That DNA significant because it leads law enforcement to state that she has been abducted. When asked is abducted too strong of a word to use, the Pima county sheriff says no, she was dragged out of her home this 84 year old grandma the night. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. First of all, joining me in All Star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now, we're getting to the DNA found in her home. It's been reported that it was blood. We don't know that yet, but we do know it is Nancy Guthrie's DNA. However, it's her home. Of course her DNA is there. So what concerns the police about that DNA, Is it the amount of DNA? Is it the location of the DNA? I'm going to get into it, but I need to go to Grace Stafford right now. It's Dr. Grace Stafford. He is the star of podcast Zoologic, author of Zoomility, he is faculty member Grand Canyon University and so much more. But Dr. Grace Stafford, let me get right to it. You are joining us from Arizona. You're familiar intimately with this jurisdiction. What can you tell me about the terrain and the animal life?

Dr. Grace Stafford (4:28)

Nancy, as her neighborhood implies, she's located at the base of the Santa Catalina Mountain Range. And so with that wild habitat and change of elevation, it's much cooler there than you would see say in Phoenix, Arizona, Downtown Phoenix, it's about twice the elevation of Phoenix. So the daytime and nighttime temperatures are cooler. With that change of elevation, you might get some wildlife coming in from the mountains looking for prey animals like mountain lions would not be uncommon to drop into those kind of wild urban areas like where she lives.

Nancy Grace (5:04)

What do you mean by that? It would not be uncommon for mountain lions to be in the area.

Dr. Grace Stafford (5:11)

Well, any wildlife is going to look for prey and with all the human activities there, golf courses and so forth, there's a lot of grass. You're going to have prey species like javelina, deer, rabbits and other small mammals. And so predators like mountain lions frequently will drop in from their more wild habitats to forage and then hightail it out of there back into the mountains.

Nancy Grace (5:37)

Gray, again, thank you for being with us. I'm trying to identify what, if any, perils she would face. Now, I don't believe that Nancy Guthrie, who has mobility issues, no dementia, no cognitive decline. I do not believe that she walked out of her place on a walkabout. However, she may be out in that terrain at someone else's, by someone else's hand. You stated about the temperatures, how they dip at night, how cold it gets. You've told me about the wildlife in the area. What can you tell me about the terrain itself around her neighborhood?

Dr. Grace Stafford (6:20)

Well, it's relatively flat, but it quickly climbs in elevation like any foothills area. And mountain Lemmon is found within this mountain range. It's one of the top highest peaks in Arizona. So you do get a rapid change of elevation once you leave her neighborhood. And exposure is certainly a concern. Although we've had a mild winter, temperatures right now are running 10 to 12 degrees Fahrenheit, higher than normal. But still, that's, that's really, it's wintertime. It's still rather cool for someone to be out and be exposed to the elements for a long period of time.

Nancy Grace (6:54)

And at her age. Dr. Grace Stafford, straight to Dave Mack. Joining us, crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave A lot is happening and it's happening quickly. Number one, we know that DNA is found at the scene. That is Nancy Guthrie's. We know that DNA made police believe that a struggle had ensued and she was actually kidnapped from her home. Hold on, I want to take this to Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian, you are being told from your sources that no one will confirm what type of DNA it is, regardless of media outlets insisting that it's blood. What do you know? Yeah.

Brian Fitzgibbons (7:35)

So media outlets have provided information that there was blood, but the Pima County Sheriff's Office, in a statement released to media outlets, has not confirmed that, reporting that they are. They are saying that they have connected the DNA to Mrs. Guthrie, but they will not indicate if that is indeed blood.

Nancy Grace (7:58)

Prime Fitz Gibbons. There had to be something. It just assumed that the media outlets are correct, that it is her blood. There had to be something about the blood that raised law enforcement's suspicions because her blood could be on a knife in the kitchen. It could be on the kitchen sink. It could be in the bathroom. She may have had a nosebleed. She may have cut her finger. She may have stubbed her toe. That's not suspicious. What would be suspicious? About her blood that would concern law enforcement. BRIAN fitzgibbons and is the amount of the blood, is it a copious amount of blood or the location of the blood, is there blood on the door, the front door, as she is being taken out of the door, or the nature of the blood? BRIAN fitzgibbons Is it a spray indicating a gunshot wound? Is is there blood spatter indicating a sharp instrument was used and that she was bludgeoned? So what I'm trying to get at. BRIAN Fitzgibbons just her blood or her DNA there in her home means nothing. It's got to be either the location, the amount or the nature of the blood. Weigh in. FITZGIBBONS Correct.

Brian Fitzgibbons (9:14)

And you look at this crime scene, as it's been called by Pima County Sheriff Nanos, that this is indeed a crime scene, that he does have evidence of a forced entry, that he does have evidence at the crime scene that Mrs. Guthrie left against her will. And you combine that with DNA found at the scene, you know, that paints a picture of what we're seeing. Was there a trail of blood leading out to the driveway? Was there blood spatter? Something connected the dots with those other statements that the sheriff made to lead to this conclusion that that DNA connected the dots on this being a potential abduction.

Nancy Grace (9:57)

And again joining us, Dr. Gray Stafford. Gray, another issue is this. When we hear blood, Nancy Guthrie's blood caused concern amongst le law enforcement. That doesn't I'm trying to look at this in a bright light, in the best light possible for Ms. Guthrie. That does not necessarily mean she was bludgeoned or stabbed or shot. Maybe she was struck. Maybe when you are struck in the face, a nosebleed can be very profuse. You bleed a lot from any injury around your nose or your mouth. So that could be a more innocent explanation, not a good one, but a more innocent one.

Dr. Grace Stafford (10:44)

Yes, it certainly could. And it and as your other guest pointed out, it's the amount, it's the proximity to the house, the driveway. Was it a trail? Was it a single spot? A lot of open questions. Still.

Nancy Grace (10:59)

You know, I want to go back over what we're learning at this hour. For those of you just joining us, Nancy Guthrie is 84. She is the mom of our friend Savannah Guthrie of NBC today. She's 5 5. She weighs about 150 pounds, brown hair, beautiful blue eyes. She lives alone, upscale community. Last seen Sunday evening at a church function. Last seen Saturday evening at a church function. The following morning, when it's time for her to go to church services. No. Nancy, she has mobility problems. I'm guessing someone came to give her a ride and she didn't come to the door. The front door unlocked. We are now learning there are signs of forced entry. The lights in the front of the home were on. We are learning and this isn't helping anything. Brian Fitzgibbons that there is a gravel driveway. We're not going to get any car prints or any car evidence off gravel. Explain.

Brian Fitzgibbons (12:11)

No, you're not going to collect any. And I'll add to this the neighborhood itself. Not only are there dirt and gravel driveways, these houses are set back quite far off of the road. So the chance of catching doorbell camera footage or security camera footage from neighboring houses is very low. In my opinion. When you look at the scenery on that street, it's very unlikely that law enforcement is going to be able to get any significant security footage from neighbors. Just the houses are set back quite a bit off of the road. It looks to be anywhere from 50 to 100 yards. And there's vegetation along the side of the road for privacy. So you can see, you can see that there on the map as, as you get down on that road, that vegetation is pretty tall. And I've seen some videos from the road itself. So it's, it's going to be unlikely that those cameras are capturing anything.

Nancy Grace (13:24)

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Nancy Grace (16:39)

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know I've got a time Discrepancy Dave Mack Dave Mack, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter maybe it's not a discrepancy because I had a judge, an awesome judge, oldest judge in the courthouse, Luther Alverson, that would tell the jury every jury trial, it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth, impugning perjury on no one. In other words, two statements can both be true and we have to figure out how to reconcile them. We are learning from a neighbor that she was taken out of the home, short quote, shortly after being dropped off after church on Saturday night. And I guarantee you there is not a church potluck going on at 2:45am Dave Mack.

Dave Mack (17:38)

To be Very clear here. Annie Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's older sister, was with her mom and is the last person to see her mom. It was Annie Guthrie who dropped Nancy Guthrie off between 9:30 and 9:45pm that's what Annie says. Something else that comes into play, Nancy. There was blood drops from the entryway of the house leading out to the driveway. Something else. Lights in the common area. I use plural. Lights in the common area of the home were left on. The front door was unlocked, but there was forced entry. And something else that was said that the doorbell camera had been removed before law enforcement arrived. And it was phrased just that way. I don't know what that means, but they said it was remove before they arrived. So we've got a woman who cannot walk 50 yards on her own. We've got blood going from the entryway to the driveway. And we do have a neighbor saying he thought she saw a mysterious car in that neighborhood, on that road near that house shortly after Annie Guthrie dropped your mom off.

Nancy Grace (19:07)

Okay, Dave Mack, I want you to go through the salient points one more time because every one of them is probative. Each thing you said proves something. Start over.

Jacob Goldstein (19:22)

All right.

Dave Mack (19:23)

Annie Guthrie, the oldest daughter of Nancy, was out to dinner with Nancy on Saturday night and dropped her off at her home between 9:30 and 9:45pm That's Annie Guthrie, the last person to see Nancy Guthrie. We have blood evidence of blood trail going from the entryway of the home out to the driveway. We have a front door that is unlocked, but police say there was force entry. We have lights on in the common areas of the home. We know that Nancy Guthrie suffers from no type of Alzheimer's or dementia. She's sharp as attack, but she has physical issues so that she cannot walk on her own for 50 yards. So we have a neighbor that also says she saw a mysterious vehicle and one she didn't recognize in the neighborhood shortly after the time Nancy Guthrie was dropped off by her oldest daughter, annie, or between 9:30 and 9:45 that evening, Saturday night. And by the way, Nancy Guthrie attended church services so regularly when she did not show up for her 11am worship service as usual. By 11:10, members of the church were on the phone with family members saying, hey, your mom's not at church. And that's why Annie. They were over at Nancy Guthrie's home right away. They spent an hour looking all inside the home and around the home before they called police and notified them that she was gone.

Nancy Grace (21:16)

I need you to add in, Dave Mack, what you Learned about the door cam.

Dave Mack (21:24)

The door cam was shocking to me, Nancy, because of the phrasing that was used in this. Law enforcement says the door camera, the doorbell camera was removed before they arrived. And that was the terminology used, that this camera had been removed before they arrived.

Nancy Grace (21:43)

Day, Mac, again, what did you say about Mrs. Guthrie's doorbell cam being removed?

Dave Mack (21:51)

That's what law enforcement says, that she did have one, but that doorbell camera was removed before they made it to her house.

Nancy Grace (22:03)

Okay, that puts a whole nother layer of planning onto this. And that is why I'm saying, Fitzgibbons, that this is not random. This is not a guy wandering around. And yes, typically, it's a man wandering around that upscale neighborhood looking to steal your VCR or seeing your jewelry lying out by your bed or taking your electronics. No, this is not some dope addict coming in to get your oxy for your knee surgery. This is targeted. This is not random. The mystery car allegation compared with taking her doorbell cam, taking the ring cam, put. Put him up. First of all, that's the first sign the person's an idiot. Because taking. Dismantling the doorbell cam does not stop what's already been recorded, right? No, it's in the clouds somewhere.

Brian Fitzgibbons (23:04)

That is correct. And Pima county sheriff Chris Nanos has indicated that they are making moves right now to get access to that cloud to obtain that footage. And. And as you mentioned, Nancy, all of these signs, knowing the location of a camera, removing it, knowing that Mrs. Guthrie would be alone, vulnerable at this time, everything points to somebody with insider knowledge of Mrs. Guthrie.

Nancy Grace (23:36)

Now, Brian Fitzgibbons, when you first heard Dave Mack report that her doorbell cam had been taken. That's all we know. Taken before law enforcement got there. You said there was video. The fact that the door cam was taken does not preclude the possibility that there was a nanny cam operating on the inside. Maybe in certain areas of the home, like the entranceway, the back door, There could be other surveillance camera other than the ring door cam.

Brian Fitzgibbons (24:05)

Correct. There's a very good possibility that somebody like Mrs. Guthrie with an association to her daughter, who's such a public figure, would have multiple cameras. It would be difficult to remove all of them in a quick fashion.

Nancy Grace (24:24)

So, Dave Mack, I want to circle back to you. Dave Mack, Crime stories investigative reporter. We understand that at. At first we were told that the search of the area has been called off, and now they're focusing on the missing person aspect, not the recovery, finding her in that area around the home. But now we're learning, Dave Mack, that law enforcement is going back and they are retracing their steps and then moving outward from the home. What do you know? Dave.

Dave Mack (24:55)

They'Re going to not just go outward from the home, Nancy they're actually extreme expanding what they were originally doing. When they first started the search, they had a ground game plan to go out and search. But now as they've decided to come back, they obviously have information leading them to this. They're going back and retracing not just their footsteps from their original search, but they're also widening the search, making it a little bit bigger on the side. As they go out from her home, they obviously have some information that has led them back down this path. Because if you remember, they very quickly said this type of a search is done. Helicopters were gone, drones were gone. Well, we got helicopters back in the air, we got drones back in the area. So they're doing another search, retracing their footsteps and expanding it a little bit.

Nancy Grace (25:48)

So Dr. Grace Stafford, star of Zoologic podcast, zoologist, consultant, author, faculty what are they going to encounter as they expand the search? Okay, you're starting at her place and you're going out, out, out, out, out. Geographically.

Dr. Grace Stafford (26:12)

Well, Nancy, a lot of people have the misconception that Arizona is a very barren terrain. There's actually a lot of wildlife and a lot of plant life here, much of which is very hazardous to walk through because they have thorns and that sort of thing. So moving out from our home, there's going to be trails, they're going to be dry washes where when it rains, water will pass through. We haven't had a lot of moisture this winter, so I suspect that it's going to be very dry in the area. But it still may make passage difficult in some of those thick brush areas away from trails, away from washes.

Nancy Grace (26:49)

Brian Fitzgibbons, don't you see where the facts are leading us? This is not random. If this were a random burglary, you'd have items taken from the home. We've heard nothing about that. It's not a family member. We know that now you have to move out someone that knew her in the sense that they knew of her. They clearly waited until Annie dropped her off from the evening church event that Saturday night. According to the neighbor, the mystery car was seen shortly after that, which means they knew when she would be dropped off. Either they were there or they already knew. They have an intimate knowledge of her life, that she lives alone. The doorbell cam was taken off the door. A lot is Happening here, indicating it's not random. So let's run with it. Where do you go?

Brian Fitzgibbons (27:59)

Investigators are going to start looking, Nancy, at anybody who's in and around that house with a degree of regularity. And I say this not to accuse a landscaper, a pool tech, a home health aide, anybody who's a home cleaner coming into that house regularly. They're going to expand and look at who lives with those people, who do they associate with, who might hear that Savannah Guthrie's mother lives right down the road and know that this could be a target. So it may not necessarily be that. That person, that contractor that comes into the house, but it could be somebody that's connected to him. And I can guarantee you that investigators are going thoroughly down that list of individuals that have had regular and consistent access to Mrs. Guthrie's home.

Nancy Grace (28:52)

You know, another issue, Dave Mack, is Savannah started with me at court tv. She has covered missing people. She's covered homicide. She's covered it all. She knows all the statistics. She knows all the facts. And this has got to be excruciating for her. I'm trying to paint every fact not only nefariously, but with in the best possible light. But this has got to be killing her as she gets dribbles and bits of evidence. Blood, Doorbell cam gone, just dragged from her bed. Mystery car. It's. It's heartbreaking.

Dave Mack (29:43)

Nancy, I will tell you that. One of the things that I noticed when we first started looking into this story is how emotional you got and how many of her of Savannah Guthrie's co workers, people who have worked with her over the years, how emotional they got because she is genuinely, truly liked and she is actually at her wits end. She's, as you mentioned, she's been down this road and covering stories. Savannah Guthrie is reaching out and saying, please pray. Pray for my mom. We need her back. She knows all these signs are sadly not good. And yet there's still hope. And there are even signs out in front of the yard somebody had made in front of Nancy Guthrie's home saying, we stand with you. You know, Savannah was on her way to covering the Olympics you mentioned she just returned to the set of the today show a week and a half ago after being off for throat surgery then where she couldn't even speak. And her voice is just now coming back. It's been a tough time for her over the last couple of months. She just got back on the set and now she's out, of course, in Arizona to be there to help find her mom. And I Think the shocking part of all of this, Nancy, is we have an 84 year old woman of sound mind but with physical ailments preventing her from being able to go more than 50 yards. She has medication. She has to take 24 hours and the max she can go and we're now well past that. So she's without her medication. She might be hurt. We've got blood going from the entryway to the driveway, Nancy. At this hour we are following up on claims there could be a ransom note with the alleged kidnappers demanding a specific amount of Bitcoin and demanding the cryptocurrency be sent to a specific bitcoin address to add to the mix. The bitcoin address has been verified as real. The alleged note has been forwarded to the Pima County Sheriff's Office. And responding to word of the possible ransom note, the Pima County Sheriff's Department took to X to say they are aware of reports circulating about possible ransom notes regarding the investigation into Nancy Guthrie. We are taking all tips and lead seriously. Anything that comes in goes directly to our detectives who are coordinating with the FBI. A possible break in the case, but as yet unverified.

Nancy Grace (32:12)

If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, the mother of our friend Savannah Guthrie, please dial Pima County Sheriff's 520-351-4900. Repeat, 520-351-4900. There is a reward for information that reveals the location of Nancy Guthrie, 84 year old mother and grandmother. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off, but I join Savannah and ask you to continue to pray for the safe return of Nancy Guthrie. Goodbye, friend.

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