← Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
SHOCK ARREST, HOTEL TRAIL OF BLOOD, ROB REINER, WIFE MICHELLE STABBED IN BED
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A shock arrest after a local hotel finds a trail of blood leading all the way to the shower after the brutal murder of Hollywood legend Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle, found stabbed in their beds. Multiple stab wounds, slices, including slices to the arterial veins across the neck. This as in the last hours, a high profile lawyer strides in, insisting his client is innocent. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Rob Reiner and his wife were murdered. Their daughter came across the street. She lives right across the road. And then she finds their bodies. They had multiple stab wounds. I got totally spoiled, spun out on uppers. I think it was coke and something else. And I was up for days on end and I started punching out different things in my guest house. Like a frame. Like. Like what? Like a stuff. I think I started with the TV and then I went over to the lamp and then progressive. I just everything in the guest house got wrecked. Our office will be filing charges against Nick Reiner who was accused of killing his parents, actor director Rob Reiner and photographer producer Michelle Singer Reiner. These charges will be two counts of first degree murder with a special circumstance of multiple murders. He also faces a special allegation that he personally used a dangerous and deadly weapon, that being a knife. You are hearing the local district attorney and earlier you were hearing Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, sergeant son Nick Reiner describing how he totally got spun out on uppers. I think I was on coke and something else. I was up for days on end and started punching out different things in my guest house. Let me just do a quick little correction right there. Kila Brantley joining us, reporter at large, dailymail.com it wasn't his guest house. He was living on the largesse of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner. And this wasn't the first time he totally destroyed the guest house. I mean, the entitlement of this guy. Is it true from what very different from what we first learned that Rob and Michelle Singer Reiner were found, their throats slit in their own bed. Is that true? Kayla Brantley that's exactly right, Nancy. It was around Sunday at 3:30pm when their bodies were discovered. And what we're now learning is that Rob and Michelle Reiner had been dead in their bed for some hours. So of course, now the police are putting together a timeline of when this could have happened. We know Saturday night there was a fight with Nick and his parents at a party at Conan O' Brien's house, a Christmas party. And by Sunday at 3:30pm they were found dead. Guys, in the last hours, video has emerged of the son, Nick Reiner. Now this is after he allegedly murders both his parents in their sleep, which I'm going to circle back to Philip Dubay about. I mean, talk about stalking and predating upon someone attacking your parents in the dark in their sleep when they can't fight back. After that. And after he checks into a local hotel and cleans up, he's spotted here. Let's take a look at Nick Reiner. This is the latest happening. Now. There he is. Wow. He packed clean clothes. He has on a matching outfit. Check it out. He's got on shoes without blood, new pants without blood. He's got a backpack, a jacket against the cold, a hat. Let's keep watching this because I see him walk in, fully aware of what's happening, going straight to the drink area. He gets a drink, then he goes and stands in line. Yeah, looks totally sane, doesn't he? This is from CBS News, by the way. Philip Dubay joining us. High profile lawyer out of LA county, former public defender there. It's going to really be hard for his new high profile lawyer, Alan Jackson, who represented Karen Reed, to argue mental defect because he looks completely sane right there. He knew to pack. Could you take him down, please? He need to pack. New clothes, fresh clothes. What happened to the murder weapon? Has it been hidden? Did he know enough to hide or discard the murder weapon so it will never be found? What knife was that? What utensil did he use to stab his parents and slit their throats? He knows how to go into a gas station. He goes straight to what he wants. He gets it, closes the fridge behind him, comes up to the line and stands there patiently waiting to pay. Pays for his food, his drink. Wow, he looks just like you, Dube. Going into a gas station. You don't look crazy to me. If you kill during the throes of psychosis or if you kill while under the influence of some type of meth induced situation, like a form of meth induced psychosis, it cannot form the basis of a legal defense. The jury can factor it in and deciding whether or not he had the intent to kill, but you're not going to walk away from it. And I think what the evidence will probably show is that at some point he was going through some type of a drug induced euphoria, likely from methamphetamine and that it dissipated and he went to what we call that meth or cocaine crash. And that's why you're seeing him so calm afterwards. Uh huh, uh huh. Did you interview Nick Reiner and learn all this or are you just guessing? You're just projecting. He was on meth, he was on coke, now he's in a euphoric downer and he was in psychosis at the time time he murdered his parents. You're just kind of extrapolating, is that right? I am telling you he is a statistic. He is the mirror image of that homeless drug addicted population out there that goes through that meth or coke high. It dissipates and then they crash. And during that crash stage, they are cool. You're saying the same thing again. Or am I caught in a demonic echo chamber? Are you making this all up? Did anybody tell you this? Are you co counsel with a high profile lawyer and you know this by some interview with a defender or are you just spinning it out? That's a yes. No, I'm not. I am enriching you as to what the likelihood is. That's really what's going on. Okay, so where did you get your information? If you could reveal that? I'll tell you what tipped me off, that that's what happened. When he was arrested, they booked him into the Twin Towers Correctional Facility rather than the Men's County Jail. So what? That. And that is the largest psych hospital in the United States within a jail system. It tells me that at the point of arrest you must cut his mic because for Pete's sake, Paris Hilton was booked in the, in the Twin Towers. That means nothing to me. The fact that he's in the Twins Towers, you are spinning out like Rumpelstiltskin. You're taking mangy looking wet hay and you're turning it into gold. But guess what? That doesn't work with a veteran trial lawyer. That would be me. The lies stop right here. You know nothing about his mental state. You know nothing about whether he was on speed, whether he's on meth, whether he's on coke, much less a euphoric downer after. Bottom line, you know what? Why am I asking a JD like myself mental health questions when I've got Dr. Bethany Marshall with me, renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of this jurisdiction along with Dube, author of Deal Breakers. You see her on Peacock now and find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, Philip Dube is talking about statistics. And all trial lawyers know if they've ever tried a case, and they're not just a talking head, that statistics are overwhelmingly disallowed as evidence at court. So that's not happening. Now. It doesn't matter if Reiner, as in the son, Nick Reiner, had been on meth. It doesn't matter if he was on coke. It doesn't matter what he's on. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol, not a defense. Bethany, I would like you to look at your screen. We're going to look at this gas station video again. A lot of you may be wondering, why is this important? Because Alan Jackson has swooped in the Karen Reed lawyer. This is from CBS News, by the way. And I already see, as Dube said, rightfully, that they're going to try a mental defense argument. Okay? But look at this guy. This is a couple of hours after he allegedly slits the Throats of both of his parents. You know why? Because he just couldn't take living in that multi millionaire home, that lifestyle he was given on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree. You know, Nancy, I see somebody walking casually around a mini mart getting a drink. He doesn't show signs of drug abuse here. He's not pacing, he's not agitated, he looks quite calm to me. So instead of putting this in the drug addiction category where somebody's on meth and there's overkill, which I speculated to yesterday, what I'm going to say now is that often with domestic homicide, when somebody successfully kills a family member, there's an extraordinary relief phase afterwards. So they will be quite calm, they will like go shopping, they, I mean like Casey Anthony, dance on the stripper pole. They will go out and enjoy their lives. Now, in terms of drug abuse, I've been looking at all the interviews last night, Nancy, and one of the things I noticed about this guy, Rob Reiner's son, is he does a lot of what we call tongue thrusting, pushing his tongue out as he's talking, which means that he has tardive dyskinesia, which is a sign of antipsychotic medication. Meaning this guy was in the lap of luxury of psychiatric care. He had the best psychiatrists, the best hospitalizations, everything available to him. I see this as much more psychological than something that is related to drug addiction. I want to go to Rob Shuter joining us, star of Naughty but Nice podcast, author of a brand new book, It Started with a Whisper, which is a big hit on Amazon. Now you can find him at robshooter.substack.com publicist to the stars. You know, Rob Sheeter, I'm going to put you under the microscope right now and do a lightning round. Isn't it true you know Nick Reiner? Isn't that true? I've met Nick Reiner, yes. So then, simple answer. Yes. And you have actually sat down and had a meal with him? Yes. No coffee with him and a. Maybe a croissant. That's not a yes, no, but whatever. When you were with him, did he seem psychotic or just a spoiled brat? A spoiled brat. He felt entitled. Explain. He turned a plate for a meeting that he arranged. I didn't arrange it. So he wanted to meet with me in la and he turned up late, Kind of late. Late enough that you noticed. Not five, ten minutes late, late. That bothered me. When he turned up, he was rude to the staff, which is always a tell when you turn up and you're rude to people. I remember at one point they got his order wrong and he blew off the handle really shockingly, shockingly quick, and then came back down and sat and talked. He was arrogant, he was entitled. And he saw this sense of himself that was way bigger than the reality. He believed that he was a major player in Hollywood the same way that he believed he trashed his guest house. No, you are not a major player in Hollywood. Your parents are, your dad is. And that ain't your guest house, it's your dad's. Rob, why did he want to meet with you? What did he want? He was struggling. He wanted to be a really successful screenwriter. He wanted to be famous. I think he desperately wanted to step out of his mom and dad and his grandpa's shadow. He was a lost guy, and he had access to, to resources that the rest of us people struggling in the entertainment business would absolutely, absolutely desire. He had phone numbers, he had email, he had contacts. But unfortunately here he didn't have a lot of talent. And so he had trouble squaring that. And he was looking. He was looking for somebody to come along and turn him into the next amazing screenwriter, which obviously I couldn't do, and nobody else could do any he could do, and he didn't have the gifts to do that. Rob Shooter, you stated that he contacted you to meet with him because he wanted to become a successful screenwriter. What is your experience, Shooter, as a screenwriter? My experience is zero. I have never written a screenplay. Okay, so what you're good at, what your forte is, is you are a PR guru. People from all around the world come to you for PR help, public relations help, whether they're in a crisis or they just want to become famous for whatever reason. You've seen it all, from Britney to Sean Combs, so many more. So he didn't come to you for help to become a screenwriter. He came to you because he wanted to be famous. Yeah. There was no craft there. He didn't come to me to learn the art of becoming successful. He had no interest in learning his craft. He had no interest in taking a screenwriting class, in learning how to do this. He wanted to go straight from 0 to 100. And this is not that uncommon. It very rarely happens. But everybody wants to be famous. Everybody wants to be successful. Are you willing to put in the work, the hours, the hours, the years, the years. I tell everybody that works with me for a little bit of success, it's going to take five to 10 years of hard work. He wasn't willing to do that. He wanted to go straight from a zero to 100. Well, how did he want you to make him famous? What were you supposed to do? He had no idea how I'd do it. He thought I'd done it for other people. I explained to him very, very carefully that I had worked with a lot of, lot of celebrities, but I hadn't turned anybody into a star who didn't do the work. And that everybody I worked with, from a Jennifer Lopez to a Jon Bon Jovi, works their tail off. There's this thing, this perception out there that you can become famous overnight without doing the work, and it's just not true. You have to do the work. He shows almost zero interest in that. I asked him if he, if he had a screenplay. Show me your play. Let me, let me read it. Let me see. He hadn't even put together a sentence. He sent me nothing. Okay. Does that change your opinion, Dr. Bethany Marshall, what you are learning from Rob Shuter now we're getting to the very latest. We know where he's being held right now. We know what his lawyer is up to. We have seen the very latest videos and evidence. We have evidence from the hotel where he snuck into and literally blacked out the windows with sheets hiding out, where he cleaned up, leaving behind blood in the shower, his parents, blood. Before I get to that, this is a real insight for me, Dr. Bethany Marshall. I usually don't get to have this when I'm looking at Target. This changes a lot for me, this insight into Nick Reiner's mind. Bethany. Yes, it changes a lot for me, too. I was fascinated by what Rob was saying because what I'm hearing is true entitlement. Entitlement is the expectation of reward without achievement. You want to be at the top of Mount Everest, but you don't want to work out. Hike, get all the equipment, try to get yourself to the top. You just want to be magically helicoptered there. And so people, people who have severe addictions, like obviously Nick did, they have to work really hard to surmount those addictions, right? They have to go to rehab. They have to surround themselves with a community that will hold them responsible. But if you're drug addicted and entitled, you are not going to put in the work to gain sobriety. Now, if you're living in a guest house with very rich, very talented, renowned parents, what you're going to see is a sack of gold on the other side of the driveway and it's yours. It doesn't belong to them. Anymore, now it's yours. You should have it yourself. Even though maybe you haven't done anything to earn it, right? Maybe you haven't gone to Conan o' Brien's Christmas party and chatted people up and been kind and you know, taken pictures, shake hands or anything like that. You just think that it belongs to you. And so what I hear is somebody who thinks he should be famous, he doesn't have the talent, he doesn't want to put in the work. He is building up this boiling resentment towards his parents who did put in the work and his grandfather who did put in the work. And envy that green eyed monster, envy. When you want something somebody else has and you don't feel you can get it for yourself, it causes the wish to destroy the object of your envy. And I think that's what we're seeing right now is that he just, he destroyed his parents, even though they gave him every benefit, every opportunity. He thought he could just skate in and, you know, have lunch with our naughty but nice, you know, person here and all of a sudden he would be famous. It's the offending pattern. I see it everywhere now as we're talking about it tonight, as we go to air tonight, we are learning the district attorney there in LA has filed formal charges, including you legal eagles, if you caught this special circumstances, which means the death penalty is on the table. These charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. No decision at this point has been made with respect to the death penalty we have requested and currently Nick Reiner is being held without bail. One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon will be was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence we'll present in court. The murders of Rob Reiner and wife Michelle Singer. Reiner, stabbed dead, multiple stab wounds. The injuries to the neck categorized as slash wounds, both their throats slit. Arterial bleed is like a water sprinkler. I can guarantee you that this is a blood. And in the last hours, Nick Reiner, suspect number one in the murders of Rob Reiner and wife Michelle Singer. Reiner appears in court looking grim, wearing shackles and a suicide square smock as he makes his very first court appearance in the murder cases. Sydney Sumner. What happened? What happened? Nancy? Essentially nothing. Alan Jackson tells the judge he's already spoken with the prosecution and they agree to postpone Reiner's arraignment until the new year. So they'll be back in court on January 7. The judge asked Reiner if he agrees to waive his right to a speedy arraignment, and Reiner meekly responds, yes, your honor. The only thing we really learned here is that Reiner is likely being held on suicide watch, evidenced by that barely visible blue smock. So Sydney Sumner, the spoiled brat turned accused double killer, said very little in court. He appeared behind glass. He was shackled. He did not enter a plea. Why? Mr. Jackson answered that for his client, telling the judge it's too early to enter a plea, as he had just a few minutes with this client before this initial appearance. It seems the court is already on holiday mode, as both prosecutors and the judge quickly agreed to postpone until January 7th. Not everyone can be good at fantasy football and at Better. We understand that. That's why we're giving you $10 for free just for signing up. Download the Better App, Pick more or less on player stats, watch the games and win some cash. It's that simple. Simple. Better picks available in 33 states, including Texas, California and Georgia. Download the Better app today. That's better. B E T R and get a free $10. No deposit necessary. Must be 21 or older. In a jurisdiction where Better Picks operates, terms and conditions apply. Better Picks Sports just got better. It's the most wonderful time of the year and Valpak is here to make it even better this month as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a sleigh full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's right, you can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant win. 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Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com crime stories with Nancy Grace. Nick Reiner's arraignment originally scheduled for this week. But once high profile lawyer Alan Jackson enters the scene, Jackson waives the right to a speedy arraignment and it has been delayed. Remember a defense attorney's best friend, Delay, delay, delay. And so it has started. Well, I don't think we can be too hard on Jackson yet. I'm not sure this delay can be categorized as unnecessary. We saw Jackson go into the courthouse less than 45 minutes before this arraignment, giving him just a few minutes to meet with Reiner and the prosecutors. I can't blame him for pushing back a plea to get a chance to actually sit down with Reiner and get a better understanding of his story. The arrest of Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer, Reiner's son goes down in a public location. And eyewitnesses state that Nick Reiner, the defendant in this case, seemingly was acting like a, quote, ordinary guy. He was arrested in a public area in the Exposition park area near the University of Southern California campus. He was approached by the officers and he was arrested without incident. There were no indications that there was no indication that he was going to resist or anything like that. He didn't flee or anything like that. He was taken into custody without issue and he was transported to our police headquarters facility. Kayla Brantley joining us, investigative reporter, dailymail.com Kayla, what happened? Tell me about how the arrest went down. Yeah, as you can see from those pictures and as was described by the officer, Nick Reiner appeared very calm, collected. He didn't put up a fight. And you can see in these pictures right here, you know, he put his arms behind his back. He was not arrest. He was not resisting arrest. And it appears that he was in those same clothes that he was seen in that earlier surveillance footage that you showed. So he didn't have a change of clothes and he was taken away very easily. Tell me about what was found at the hotel. It was a horrific scene. Now what we've learned is that there was blood everywhere. He's obviously changed his clothes. There was no blood on him. As you saw there and what they haven't found yet or what they haven't disclosed that they found yet is a murder weapon. So obviously everyone's assuming that there was a knife that was used for those lacerations to his parents throat. But we haven't learned yet if that has been found or if it was found in the hotel or at the crime scene. You're right. Kayla Brantley, DailyMail.com Take a listen to the LA district attorney. One of these special allegations is that the murder was committed with a deadly weapon or a knife. As to where and how the weapon will be was located or will be located, that will actually be evidence we'll present in court. You see the local district attorney seemingly correcting himself, pausing there about the weapon. Well, it will be located. It was located. That tells me that the weapon has been discarded. Much like in the Bryan Kohberger case, we found the knife hilt with the defendant's DNA on it underneath one of the murder victims, but we never found the actual knife. Interesting. Joining me, Scott Eicher, digital forensics expert, founding member of the FBI Cellular analysis survey team, FBI, 22 years and former homicide detective in Norfolk. Scott, thank you for being with us. I want to find that weapon and after much analysis, I think the best way to find find the weapon is to track Nick Reiner's cell phone. How do we do it? Well, there are several different ways to do that. You've got all the different applications on the cell phone and the cellular connections that the cell phone makes all the time when it's, when it's on. So you can track the towers, you can get more detailed information from distance from the towers and you might be able to get some information from the applications like Google, Facebook, Instagram, all those provide some locational information so you can track him historically from the house to the hotel and maybe or to where he was arrested, which was about 12, 13 miles away. So there's a good amount of distance between those locations. So they got their work cut out to try to figure it out. But obviously they've got this video. They've gotten to a point they're putting a timeline together and they're just going to chronologically go through each little step to see where they could figure out where he might have put that knife. That gas station video from our friends at cbs. Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here and go back to Philip Dube. He is actually a veteran trial lawyer, He's a defense attorney and he has been with the LA County Public Defender's office. What does that mean? They're on trial all the time. Just like assistant district attorneys. There are thousands of cases to be handled and you've got to go to trial or else you get fired. Very simply put, Philip Dubay, this guy may have been in the movie Meilou. He's been around screenwriters, he's been around stars, he's been around plenty of whodunit movies. But do you really think that he thought to. He's only alleged to have committed these crimes, but would he have thought so deeply to think, oh, let me turn my phone off before I get rid of the murder weapon. Let me put it on airplane mode? I don't think so. Remember one of our last suspects that put the phone on airplane mode? Oh, yes, that would be Barry Morphew, whose phone went on airplane airplane mode around the time his wife was killed or went missing. So Philip Dube, do you really think he thought that deeply when he got rid of the weapon? No, and I'll tell you why. I can tell by the charges. The prosecution is not alleging that this was a planned premeditated murder. The only reason why he's rising to the level of it being a special circumstance is because there were multiple victims. They're not even alleging that he did it for financial gain, which certainly is the classic motive, particularly in Hollywood. So what you really have here is somebody who is out of his mind again, likely due to psychosis, drugs, or maybe even an untreated personality disorder, who flew off the handle in a fit of rage for whatever reason and fled while still in that either drug induced psychosis or some type of mental health crisis. Does it excuse the behavior? Okay, you know what, Sidney Sumner, that was all my fault because you never on the stand anyway ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to. So I asked him Dubay about the weapon and where it would have been discarded and was the cell phone turned on or off at the time the weapon was discarded. And he goes back to his pretend drug psychosis theory. Sidney Sumner, get some facts. Joining me, Sidney Sumner along with Kayla Brantley, Daily Mail. Sidney Sumner, crime stories investigative reporter. What exactly are the charges against Nick Reiner? We just heard the district attorney speaking. What are the charges? Well, Nick Reiner is charged with two counts of murder with the special circumstances of multiple murders because he killed two people at the same time. And that special circumstance of using a deadly weapon. Sydney, aren't those murder charges first degree murder? Isn't that true? You're right, Nancy. They are first degree murder. And in this jurisdiction of California, murder one is murder with malice aforethought. That's what murder one is in California, Sydney. Exactly. So there is some assumption that this was premeditated in some degree. So when we hear Philip Dubay state that this is not. These are not charges that include intent. That's diametrically opposed to what the charges actually are. The charge is murder one. Again, out on a limb, Dubai. Under the law, there is no specific time required required to prove malice aforethought, or as we call it, premeditation. Premeditation to commit an act can be formed in the blink of an eye, the twinkling of the moment. Isn't that true, Dube? Yes, it is. Okay, so when you say the charges do not include intent, that's actually not correct. This is a murder one charge, isn't it? Yes. No, I didn't say that. It was not intentional. What I'm saying is it wasn't planned in premeditation. Yes, you did. Didn't he say that? Control room. Didn't he just say that? They're saying. Yes, you did just say that. Well, then I retract. We've got it on tape. Do I have to play it back for you, for Pete's sake? Like the gas station video is absolutely an intentional act, but it was not planned and premeditated. In other words, it was for the moment. There's a difference. Murder one is premeditated murder. I feel like I'm screaming at a lamppost. Yes, it is. Murder one is with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought standing alone does not necessarily mean premeditated. It's a separate element, I'm telling you. Okay, what do you think malice aforethought is? Because I'm looking up Black's law dictionary right now. Go ahead. I can't wait to hear this. What do you think malice aforethought is? Malice aforethought is intentional killing. That's the bottom line. Either it's. Yes, that's right. Yes, it is. However. Yes, that's right. It's intentional killing. You form intent. You have a plan. Not necessarily. Absolutely not. There's a difference. You know what? I'm wasting very valuable time arguing with you. About what? You just admitted these charges, and correct me if I'm wrong. Kayla Brantley joining us from dailymail.com on this from the very, very beginning. Kayla Brantley. He, Nick Reiner is charged with premeditated malice murder. That is what first degree Murder is. He is also charged with felony murder. That's an alternative count, which means you don't have intent. The state doesn't have to prove you had intent to. But a death occurred very simply during the commission of a felony. In this case, that felony would clearly be aggravated assault with a knife. You don't have to have intent to prove felony murder, just that a death occurred during the commission of a felony. And a sentence for felony murder can be life without parole or death penalty. Again, tell me the charges. Kill a Brantley. It's two first degree murder charges. There's the special circumstance and the special weapon charge right there. And like you said, either life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death penalty. Nick Reiner will be then brought to court. He is going through medical clearance, something that everybody who goes, who gets arrested and gets held in a Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department jail goes through. Once he is medically cleared, he will be brought to court to be arraigned on these charges. At that point, he will enter a plea of guilty or not guilty. Kila BRANTLEY Joining us DailyMail.com, why was he a no show in court? According to Reiner's lawyer, Alan Jackson, he wasn't medically cleared to appear in court. Now, we don't know exactly what that means, but as you heard there, that's something that's very standard. Everyone needs to get medically cleared. Now, this could be a psycho psych evaluation. It could be a regular medical evaluation. We're still finding that out. It could be him refusing to put his clothes on. It could be him clinging to his bunk and refusing to go. We don't know what it is, Dube. What is the reason that he was not, quote, medically cleared? Don't make something up, okay? He missed court. Why? I'm telling you, when he got booked, they brought him to the Twin Towers Correctional Facility and they put him in the medical unit. My hunches, and it's just based on my years of doing this stuff, that when they arrested him, they felt he was a danger to himself or to others still. So they put him under. What's my guess is they put him under what's called a 5150 status, where it's basically an involuntary hold for a minimum of 72 hours unless and until he is cleared by a doctor, and that includes going to court. If he is still psychotic, he cannot be brought to court. So my hunch is that they needed to medicate him to therapeutic levels, at least in the Short term. So he could be brought to court for the arraignment. If they need to extend the hold, they can do it, I believe, up to two weeks. Anything beyond that, they have to go into court, the mental health court for an order extending the involuntary hold pending arraignment. Tequila. Brantley, have you heard anything at all, all about him being in psychosis? Suicide watch? What do you know if anything about that? Not yet. We haven't heard anything about his current status. But what we have found out from family, friends of the Reiners, people who knew him his entire life, is that from an early age he appeared to be a difficult child through tantrums. One of the sources is quoted as saying he had anger in his eyes and at some point his father, Rob Reiner, would have to restrain him during these tantrums and, and that those tantrums really progressed into adulthood. Dr. Bethany Marshall, just because Nick Reiner has been booked into Twin Towers, that means nothing to me. Other people, other celebrities have been there. Cosby, Bill Cosby, O.J. simpson, Al Capone, Ted Bundy, Birdman of Alcatraz, Bernie Madoff, who worked the world's largest Ponzi scheme. He certainly wasn't crazy. He was the brilliant, evil, but brilliant and many, many others. How Dubay is extrapolating because he went to Twin Towers must mean he's on a psychiatric hold. That doesn't make sense. What do you think is happening? Dr. Bethany Another tantrum. Another tantrum. Out of an abundance of caution, they're going to make sure he doesn't want to harm himself or other people, but he's not a risk there. What I'm going to say is when you diagnose people, you can diagnose them on five axes. Axis one is mental disorders access two is personality disorders. They're treating him like he has a mental disorder. But Nancy, this is personality driven. He had tantrums from the time he was very little. According to one report, when he was 11 years old, he had such a huge tantrum that his father had to put him in a big bear hug and hold him to help him regulate down into a normal state. Could it be that Nick, Bethany, is. Bethany, can I tell you something, please, before you say one more word, before we hear any more made up theories from Philip Dube and he wins a lot of cases on arguments just like this. By the way, Paris Hilton, who has since become quite the hero on various fronts and now is a married mom. Paris Hilton was put in the Twin Towers after violating probation from a dui. She was put there because she was quote, claustrophobic. All right. So all of Dubay spinning out his theories that's not supported by the facts. We know tonight he just happened to be booked into twin towers. It's in that jurisdiction. So that really means nothing to me probatively at this juncture. But I do know he's hired a very high profile lawyer, Alan Jackson. We'll be back day to day. The the bailiff has indicated that the sheriff's department will take it on a day to day by day basis and so hopefully he'll be clear tomorrow. From our friends at FOX News Digital, Sydney Sumner. Who is paying for him? That is the million dollar question. I don't think his siblings are footing the bill and I don't know what kind of funds he has access to that don't belong to his parents. So it's very unclear where Alan Jackson is going to get his paycheck from. Two special guests joining us now, Dr. Kendall Crowns, renowned chief medical examiner of Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and he's star of a hit me podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. But don't be fooled by his joviality on his podcast. He has conducted thousands and thousands of autopsies. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. Dr. Crowns. There is a big difference in stab wounds and the slicing of his parents throats. What would the stab wounds to the body, not the slicing of the throats, indicate to you? So stab wound is a wound that is actually long, longer than it or the wound itself is shorter than it is deep. So as the knife enters into the skin, it leaves a wound that is very small, but the actual wound course is very deep. The wounds they're describing on the Reiners is a slashing wound or incised wound that is longer than it is deep. So it's kind of a shallow wound that hits multiple organs or multiple vessels but doesn't go very deep into the tissues. Well, let me understand something, Dr. Kendall crowns, even though the slicing motion you just made doesn't have to be deep, in fact it can be quite shallow. That would likely be the mortal wound. And why? So the vessels or the structures in your neck, carotid artery, jugular vein, your trachea, they're all very close to the surface, like millimeters or less than a quarter inch below your skin. You have these vital structures. You hit the carotid artery, it's going to start spurting blood out and it's going to be lots of blood coming out in a very short period of time. You'll be dead in minutes. If you just hit the jugular vein, it'll start oozing heavily and again, you'll be dead in minutes. You cut the trachea, you're going to have trouble breathing. And when you cut the trachea, you'll also cut blood vessels, you'll get blood into your trachea. So when you're dying, you're sucking in blood and you're basically drowning in your own blood as you're bleeding to death. Dr. Kendallkrans, we know that when their daughter Romy arrived and called authorities, the fire department arrived and they stated that the Reiners were already in full rigor. That tells me an approximate time of death. Could you explain? So rigor mortis is the stiffening of the joints that occurs after you die. And what happens is your muscles continue to use these, the things they use for metabolism, even after you die. And when they run out of these substances, they go into full contraction. And this can start occurring in about a half hour to an hour after death and gets to a maximum about 12 hours. So it starts in the small muscles first and then goes to the larger muscles throughout your body. So if you see full rigor, it could be about 12 hours, but it can be affected by activity, drug use, how much blood loss you've had, a number of other factors, how warm it is in the house. So using it as a exact time frame for the post mortem interval is difficult. Have you ever turned a dollar into ten grand? I doubt it, but now you can. On Better Picks. Download the Better App. Pick more or less on your favorite player's stats, watch the games and win some cash. It's that simple. Better picks available in 33 states, including Texas, California and Georgia. Download the Better App today. That's Better Betr. And get a free $10. No deposit necessary. Must be 21 or older. In a jurisdiction where Better Picks operates, terms and conditions apply. Better Picks Sports just got better. It's the most wonderful time of the year, and Valpak is here to make it even better. This month, as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win 100. That's right, you could find 100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons. And offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant win. Void we're prohibited. Prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details. The world's best ski and snowboard athletes are chasing medals. Now. You can follow their every move. 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Try the limited time free trial on PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X and S. Play now and feel the weight of the badge Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Dr. Kendall Brown isn't it true that after a period of hours when someone is in rigor, the rigor breaks and they're the deceased limbs become limber again? Yes, after the 12 hour interval. After the 12 hour interval of it setting up, you'll stay in full rigor for about 10 to 12 hours. And after that it starts to subside and disappears over another 12 hours. Unless someone moves it and breaks the rigor manually and then it goes away completely. So you have about a 24 hour window of full rigor before it disappears. Okay, is it 12 hours or 24 hours? So 12 hours to set up, 10 to 12 hours after it sets up, where it stays in place and then after that it begins to subside over another 12 hours. Okay, Dr. Kendall crowns, what type of defensive wounds would you have expected to be found on Michelle and Rob Reiner's bodies? We've heard nothing about defensive wounds such as blocking with the hands, the arms, even curling up in a fetal position and getting defensive wounds on the knees or the legs. I've heard nothing about that. I've only heard about stabs, we believe to the torso. So since they were in bed and may have been asleep, they could have not even seen this coming. And not had an opportunity to react. Since there's two individuals, at least one individual probably was awoken by the other individual being killed and may have had a chance to defend themselves. But usually defensive wounds is what you see is the individual trying to grab the knife and trying not to be stabbed. And you'll see slices or incised wounds across the fingers, across the palm of the hand. And then you'll see also incised wounds or stab wounds of the forearms as they're trying to block the knife themselves. And again, like you said, you may pull up your legs even, and you'll see stab wounds or incised wounds on the legs and feet. Do we all just forget that Rob Reiner was on this list or what? Now he's dead. What? The zany conspiracy theories have already started. Sydney Sumner, crime stories investigative reporter. I don't recall Rob Reiner's name being on the Epstein list, by the way, that's from Hunter Montross on TikTok. Sid. Well, the list that that user is standing in front of is not real. That is a fake list that has been circulating on social media. And Rob Reiner's name is on that fake list and circled, but there's no actual evidence supporting that he had any ties to Jeffrey Epstein. So, sorry, Hunter, your zany conspiracy theory doesn't hold water. Rob Reiner was not on the Epstein list, for Pete's sake. But there's no lack of theories. Maybe Philip Dubay can use these as the defense. Listen, Rob had been working on a series called the Spy and the Actual Asset. The series was going to be about Putin and Donald Trump. Their upbringings, different ways they intersected, and in Rob's words, what happens to democracy as a result of this convergence? That relationship of Trump and Putin being explored and extrapolated and navigated is going to bring a whole lot of corruption up to the surface. Right, that. From Studio A8 on TikTok to Scott Eicher joining us. He was a founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey team. Scott, I think I'd rather rely not on zany conspiracy theories. I will leave that to our veteran trial lawyer, Philip Dubay. Scott, I'd rather deal with hard facts. How difficult is it going to be for me to trace Nick Reiner's cell phone, where he went that night, any credit card or ATM use, And what was it for? I need to track not only his phone, but where there was a delay. Even in the Alex Murdaugh case, where Murdoch murdered his wife Maggie and son Paul as he left the scene. I Got from his. Well, Prosecutor Waters got from his nav system where he slowed down and the nav system showed Scott Eicher him lowering the passenger side window electronically. That's where he threw out Maggie's cell phone. Then he let the window up, sped up and went and hid out at his mother's house who had dementia and really could not say what time he got there. That said, that's what I'm looking for. You know, this guy didn't think deeply enough to turn his phone on airplane mode or turn it off when he discarded of the knife. So how am I going to find the knife? It sure does look like a crime of passion in those instances. A lot of times the suspects do not turn off their phones. Don't think ahead like that. Once you get the identifying information about the suspect. Phone records, vehicle records, credit cards. It's really interesting how you can put a timeline together and kind of piece together all the things that happened before and after the crime. Hey, Scott Eicher, you and I have both marveled at the video montage put together by LE law enforcement in the Fotus Doulos case. They got him every which way but loose on video from ring doorbell cams to stop cam. This is after his wife Jennifer, the mother of his five children was murdered. I'm thinking that this neighborhood is blanketed in ring doorbell, in stoplight cam, you name it. I bet they can follow him almost everywhere he went. And if he took an Uber or share a ride share, there may be video in there that can help me track him and find the knife. That said, here's another zany theory. Listen up, Dube. Nick Reiner, who is allegedly the murderer in this case the son of Robin Michelle who killed both of his parents. Allegedly his name did not appear on Google trends really at all. Here's it. In the United States. United States. Nick Reiner. Nothing, Nothing. This is showing starting yesterday 14th. So that was the United States. This is what happens happens when you look up the exact same query and only change the geolocation to be Tel Aviv instead of the United States. Nick Reiner, Tel Aviv Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. Oh, look at that. Two bumps a couple months ago last month. Interesting. All of a sudden bumps again from Studio A8 on TikTok. So Dubai, I guess she's arguing. You may want to take notes too. Put this in with your drug psychosis theory that he what is actually a spy. She's mentioning Tel Aviv. I don't know what that has to do with. Maybe he's an avatar Maybe he's a ghost. Maybe he doesn't even exist. Then who's that sitting in the Twin Towers? I gotta tell you, I think it's genius because if we're all honest, it forms the basis of the not guilty by reason of insanity defense. If he truly thinks that he's going to be beamed up by the starship Enterprise and he's got all kinds of wild imaginings. Nobody said that. You said that. Well, what else would. He just didn't have a Google profile. He had no social media profile. The fact that the evidence. And now you're claiming you've got another psychosis defense because he's not on social media? No, not because of that. Okay, good. I'm happy you said that. I couldn't be more happy. I hope you use that at trial. Hey, just to throw this into your crazy pot to stew, Listen, Donald Trump got on Truth Social and said this, which is horrific and tonally and timeline wise to me, does seem like a confession. He's. Listen, motive right there. Means doesn't even need to be explained. And the funny thing is he got on camera today and doubled down on it again, specifically the part with Russia. He was like, he's trying to look into this and dig all this stuff up. And as you know, it's always the opposite where, like, there's nothing weird there there. It's just so blatantly obvious at Studio A8 on tick tock. So, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I don't think that's going to help Alan Jackson at this juncture that Trump confessed to a motive. No, it is not. I mean, conspiracy theorists take something that is sort of benign. I hate to call it domestic homicide benign, but it does happen. And they try to spin a whole theory out of it to try to make it a part of a predictable universe, but it's not. You know, people love to form patterns. And so conspiracy theorists will try to form a pattern out of an outlier like domestic homicide. And that's all this is. They're just trying to form a pattern. Nancy. The investigation is ongoing. Right now we are waiting for Nick Reiner to appear in court. If you know anything or think you know anything about the case, whether you observed Reiner, observed him in the gas station, observed him in a ride, share, anything, Please help the LAPD dial 800-222-8477. Repeat, 800-2228-8477. Tonight, we remember an American hero. Investigator Lewis Roller, Oklahoma District Attorney's office, killed in the line of duty after 35 years, leaving behind a wife turned widow and two children. American hero investigator Louis Rollo Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend. Yo. Do you know Ball well? Come through with a free $10 from Better Picks. Download the Better app, pick more or less on your favorite player's stats, watch the games, and win some cash. It's that simple. Must be 21 or older. In a jurisdiction where Better Picks operates, terms and conditions apply. Better Picks Sports just got better. It's the most wonderful time of the year, and Valpak is here to make it even better. This month, as you sip through holiday mail, don't miss the blue Valpak envelope. From dining to holiday shop shopping, there's a slate full of savings in your mailbox, plus a chance to instantly win $100. That's right, you can find $100 Christmas cash inside. Want to save even more money on what you love? Go to valpak.com for local coupons and offers. It pays to open Valpak. No purchase necessary for instant win voip where prohibited prices are randomly inserted. See specially marked Valpak envelopes for details. The world's best ski and snowboard athletes are chasing medals. Now you can follow their every move. Join Insider, the official US Ski and Snowboard fan loyalty program, and get premium viewing at World cup ski events, exclusive athlete meetups, discounts from brands you love, and a custom welcome gift mailed direct to your doorstep this winter. Show your support as they race for the podium. Head to insider.usski and snowboard.org and join today. This is Richard Sherman from the Richard Sherman Podcast. Ready or not is the tactical first person shooter where you take command of a SWAT team and every decision matters. I reunited with my Legion of Boom teammates Cam Chancellor, Cliff Averil, Michael Bennett and Walter Thurman to go through real SWAT training and see why over 13 million players are into this game. Watch our training now at Richard Sherman Podcast YouTube channel this isn't mindless run and gun. The game demands elite teamwork and sharp strategic thinking, just like what the Legion of Boom brought to the field every single game. Try the limited time free trial on PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X and S. Play now and feel the weight of the badge. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.