"SMILING SISTERS" KITTY & COOKIE HACK MOM OF 5, 32, DEAD IN BROAD DAYLIGHT INTERSECTION

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "SMILING SISTERS" KITTY & COOKIE HACK MOM OF 5, 32, DEAD IN BROAD DAYLIGHT INTERSECTION

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace – June 30, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply emotional and provocative episode, Nancy Grace explores the shocking murder of Caroline Peña—a devoted 32-year-old mother of five, stabbed to death in broad daylight at a busy intersection in Del Rio, Texas. The episode delves into not only the brutality of this seemingly senseless crime, but also the disturbing reaction of the alleged killers—sisters Kitty and Cookie Diaz—who smiled and posed for cameras as they were arrested. Grace is joined by a panel of guests including a journalist eyewitness, the victim’s best friend, legal and forensic experts, and crime reporters, as they reconstruct the events, discuss the investigation, and examine the impact on Caroline’s children and community.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Victim and the Crime Scene

• Caroline Peña: 32-year-old mother of five, two children with autism, described as deeply devoted and having just achieved new stability for her family (paid off truck, new home, new TV).
• The Attack: No known argument or escalation. Caroline was surrounded by three young women and viciously stabbed—twice in the back and once in the abdomen—at a main intersection (03:35).
• Eyewitness (Michael Elizondo): Describes the shocking demeanor of the accused—smiling, smirking, and sticking their tongues out while being arrested (05:34; 06:55). His footage, caught serendipitously, later provided damning insights into their lack of remorse.

2. The “Smiling Sisters”: Arrest and Behavior

• Kitty (Mia Diaz-Amaya) and Cookie (Diaz): Dubbed “smiling sisters” for their apparent enjoyment of the camera during arrest (04:49).
• Notable Behavior: Grinning, making faces, shooting a “bird” (flipping the middle finger), and mugging for social media-style shots (25:21; 26:39; 28:25; 35:15).
  • Nancy Grace: “This ain’t insta, ladies. And you’re headed to the big dollhouse. So let that soak in.” [25:21]
• Commentary from Experts:
  • Possible motive speculated as envy or jealousy toward Caroline, who was apparently flourishing despite hardship (24:21; Dr. Bethany Marshall).
  • Defense may argue “inappropriate (youthful) reaction” or “nervous laughter,” but panel agrees such a reaction will likely inflame jury opinion (29:30–31:11).

3. Eyewitness and Best Friend: Personal Impact

• Christina Salinas (Best Friend): Gives emotional testimony about discovering the news via social media and racing to the scene (08:15–09:01). Recounts how Caroline never collapsed until placed in her truck and continued fighting for life (11:25; 11:45).
  • Quote: “She was still fighting even with her stab wounds.” [11:45]
• Christina criticizes slow medical response—detailing a four-hour delay in flying Caroline out of town, believing medical intervention wasn't prioritized (10:00–10:50).
• Highlights Caroline’s selflessness, supportive nature, and the devastation now faced by her children—especially her autistic son and daughter (12:08–12:57).

4. The Role of Bystanders and Viral Video

• Viral Footage: The attack was filmed by bystanders, some of whom posted to social media rather than calling 911 (19:02).
  • Nancy Grace: “...people...video the stabbing and post it instead of calling 911. That’s a whole nother can of worms.” [18:31]
• Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst): Explains the “bystander effect”—how crowds diffuse responsibility, often leading to inaction or perverse behavior like filming violence (21:51).

5. Forensic Details

• Dr. Kendall Crowns (Medical Examiner):
  • Describes the physical trauma: Two stab wounds penetrated Caroline’s chest cavity, causing her lungs to collapse, a third hit her stomach leading to eventual fatal peritonitis (36:24).
  • Emphasizes Caroline likely suffered for hours, aware of her impending death and worried about her children (38:08–38:41).
    • Quote: “Most mothers would think of their children as their last thoughts.” [38:41]

6. Legal and Investigative Analysis

• Evidence: Video of the smiling sisters at arrest will play a key role at trial, potentially undermining claims of remorse (28:44–29:30).
• Prosecution vs. Defense:
  • Legal experts agree the defendants’ post-crime demeanor would be “a field day for prosecutors” (30:18–31:11).
  • Defense attorney suggests arguments may center around youth, emotional immaturity, or provocation, but facts—such as arriving armed and the victim being unarmed—call those into question (43:47–44:47).
• Expert Panel Consensus: The attack appears ambush-like, premeditated, and egregiously callous—leaving little plausible defense (41:48; 44:47).

7. The Real Victims: Caroline’s Children

• Dr. Bethany Marshall (40:09): Details the profound loss faced by Caroline’s children, especially the youngest and those with autism, now deprived of the essential maternal bond at critical periods in their development.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the sisters’ attitude:

  • Nancy Grace: “They were more concerned about how they're going to look in Michael Elizondo's video... I don't understand it.” [39:17]
  • Dr. Bethany Marshall: “This was their moment of glory, their TikTok selfie moment... They are triumphing over the victim.” [24:21]

• On Caroline’s spirit:

  • Christina Salinas: “That's the realest person I know I'm ever going to know in my life. She's someone that you can run to without having to be judged... She loved her kids. She loved her mom, her sister too.” [12:08]

• On bystander effect:

  • Dr. Bethany Marshall: “The best way to break the bystander effect... is to signal one other person out of the crowd and to say, come help me.” [21:51]

• On the crime’s calculated nature:

  • Chris McDonough: “This is consequences are an afterthought. You know, this is the, this is an ambush style attack of a mother... This was broad daylight on a busy street in Del Rio, Texas, where every single mother should feel safe.” [31:11]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:46] Opening of main story; the victims and suspects named
• [05:34] Michael Elizondo's eyewitness account of suspects' demeanor
• [07:42] Christina Salinas confirms details about Caroline's children
• [08:15] Christina learns of the crime and races to the scene
• [10:00] Medical response and delay controversy
• [11:45] Christina describes Caroline's final moments fighting for life
• [12:08] Caroline’s personality and role as a mother
• [19:02] Description of the attack and viral bystander footage
• [21:51] Dr. Bethany Marshall on the “bystander effect”
• [24:21] Analysis of the sisters’ motive and exhibitionism
• [29:30] Defense attorney on possible legal strategies
• [31:11] Chris McDonough on crime’s public and devastating nature
• [36:24] Dr. Kendall Crowns’ forensic analysis
• [40:09] Impact of the mother’s death on autistic children
• [41:48] Chris McDonough on knife wounds and lack of remorse
• [43:47] Defense strategies and factual obstacles
• [44:47] Summary of the evidence and call to action for tips

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Closing Thoughts

Nancy Grace and her panel offer a raw and unvarnished portrayal of the devastating fallout when violent crime intersects with social media age narcissism and apathy. The episode is as much about justice for Caroline Peña as it is a call for empathy, vigilance, and a reminder of the deep, permanent wounds left in the lives of the blameless—Caroline’s five children.

If you have information on the case:
Contact Del Rio PD at 830-774-2711.

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This summary was composed to capture the episode’s full narrative, insights, and tone with clear sectioning, speaker attributions, and useful context for those who haven’t listened firsthand.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I Heart podcast guaranteed

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So called smiling sisters Cookie and Kitty hack a beautiful young mother of five children. Two of them are autistic. She was just 32 years old. Butchered dead in broad daylight in a busy intersection. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

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32 year old Caroline Pena, a mother of five from Del Rio, Texas is viciously attacked. She is stabbed multiple times. When police locate the suspects, they are seen smiling and showing no remorse.

[Nancy Grace]

How is a beautiful young mom of five children hacked to death? Five children now without a mother. Two of them needing special care. Two of them are autistic. No argument led up to this. Nothing. She was suddenly surrounded by so called Cookie and Kitty, the smiling sisters. And we say they're smiling because when they were arrested they managed to mu and smile and smirk for photo ops. I'll get to that in a moment. Joining me, an all star panel to make sense of what we know tonight. Straight out to special guest joining us, Michael Elizondo, an independent journalist. He actually recorded footage of the sisters smiling in handcuffs while being arrested. Michael Elizondo, thank you so much for being with us. Could we show his video that he managed to capture? Independent journalist. Look at this. Wait for it. Michael. What? Oh my goodness. Could those hot pants be any hotter? Wait a minute.

[Christina Salinas]

What?

[Nancy Grace]

What? What is that on her breast? Oh, it's a shirt with two hands over her nipples. Okay, let's run that one more time, please. Okay. These sisters. There you go. Broad daylight, which is a whole nother can of worms. Broad daylight and nothing is going to happen. Kitty Mia Diaz, Amaya, Cookie Diaz and their friend Renee. There you go. Smile. She looked back for the camera. Okay, back to Michael Elizondo, independent journalist who happened to be there and managed to capture that footage. Michael Elizondo, thank you. What did you observe?

[Michael Elizondo]

Okay. On the scene, when I was there, I noticed a lot of detectives show up to the scene with other police officers. And of course when I was observing the situation, I noticed one girl come out, police officers with a young lady in black being paced into the police unit. And of course she's smirked. And as she was being put in, then about three minutes later, I Noticed that another young lady and handcuff going towards me because they parked right next to me at the stop sign. And of course, when the young lady was getting towards me, she starts smiling and she tells me, why are you recording acting like a 3 year old? And of course, I didn't know what was going on at that situation. I was left in left field. And then she was either smiling away, being pissed into the police vehicle. And then a minute later, the backseat window goes down. I noticed her looking out the window, smiling and sticking out her tongue. But I don't know if I caught that footage, but I noticed her sticking out her tongue, smiling out the window. I know it's gonna. I got a creepy vibe from that situation. But not knowing what transpired in that point in time.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, hold on just a moment, guys. With me, Michael Elizondo. Hold on, Michael. I'm hearing in my ear, we are just being joined right now. I'm going to circle back to you, Michael. Don't move. Christina Salinas is with us. She is joining us from Del Rio. She is Caroline Pena's best friend. Christina, thank you for being with us tonight. First of all, I am sorry for what you're going through. I'm even more sorry for what her children are and will go through, what they are going through tonight, what they will be going through for the rest of their lives. Is it true, Christina, that two of her five children are autistic?

[Christina Salinas]

Yes, ma', am, it is. Both of them are autistic.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, Christina. I mean, what happened to Caroline is bad enough. That is her children. Let me just start at the beginning. You're seeing Caroline Pena now, and she's just gorgeous, Completely devoted to her five children. She lived for them. Christina, when did you learn what had happened to Caroline?

[Christina Salinas]

Well, I was at work. And when I got out of work, I. I just remember I got on Facebook and we have a local page called Rio Del Rio. And when I went on that page, that's whenever I seen that they had uploaded that there was an incident going on 22 minutes ago. And in that incident, it was that Caroline had sat there and she. She was stabbed in the back and she was still fighting, so nobody had to tell me it was her. As soon as I found out, I automatically ran and jumped in my car and I took off. And I remember, I. I just remember. I just knew it was my best friend. Nobody had to tell me anything.

[Nancy Grace]

Where you stated you jumped in your car and took off. Where did you go?

[Christina Salinas]

I went to the crime scene on 10th street, and nobody was there besides the detectives. So I passed by Caroline's house, and I didn't see her truck there. So that's when I automatically knew that it was her. And I went to the hospital, and I ran into her twin sister and her mother.

[Nancy Grace]

She has a twin?

[Christina Salinas]

Yes, ma', am, she does.

[Nancy Grace]

I know, as the mom of twins, that that is a bond that cannot be broken. You got to the hospital. You saw Caroline's mother and her twin sister. What happened then?

[Christina Salinas]

I remember I tried to rush behind the closed doors, and I security guard didn't let me. And I just told him I just wanted to see my friend, and he said I couldn't. So I ran outside and I told her sister what happened. And she told me that she got stabbed. And that's whenever I sat there. And it just hit me. Everything hit me at once.

[Sydney Silvani]

It just.

[Christina Salinas]

I was angry. I was angry at the cops for taking their time, and I was angry at the hospital because she was there in the hospital for over four hours before they tried to fly her out to San Antonio. I believe they could have tried to stop the bleeding, but it wasn't a priority here.

[Nancy Grace]

Why do you say that, Christina? Why do you think that Caroline was not a priority in the hospital?

[Christina Salinas]

Because, ma', am, they have proper surgeons here that can do surgery at least to just stop the bleeding for the meantime, until they fly her out. How was it that there was technical difficulties with the first helicopter? They had to send her back in for another hour and a half till the second one got here. Then they waited another hour and a half until they decided to finally fly her out when they could have easily driven her to Uvalde. They could have driven her to San Antonio within those four hours. I don't understand.

[Nancy Grace]

Why did they wait, Christina, when you went to the crime scene at the intersection? Let's see the video that Michael Elizondo has so kindly shared with us. When you got to the intersection, you stated everything was. Everybody had gone. There were just some detectives there. What were they doing?

[Christina Salinas]

They were just standing there. And I remember they looked at my car, and I just turned away, and I went straight to Caroline's house. They were just standing there talking. I remember. Just really angered me to see that they were there.

[Nancy Grace]

You stated that you knew it was Caroline when you learned, as I have learned, that after she was stabbed in the back, she collapsed and then she tried to stand up again. Is that your understanding?

[Christina Salinas]

No, ma'. Am. She never fell to the floor. She still fought standing up while she was stabbed. She didn't collapse till she got put inside her truck. She was still fighting even with her stab wounds.

[Nancy Grace]

Still fighting to live. Tell me about Caroline and what kind of a mom she was.

[Christina Salinas]

Caroline, I'll tell you one thing for sure. That's the realest person I know I'm ever going to know in my life. She's someone that you can run to without having to be judged. She's someone that would give you good guidance. She loved her kids. She loved her mom, her sister too. She was a die hard person behind her family. I know she was so happy. She was happy she was coming up. She had her own house. She had just got done paying off her truck. She was super excited the night before because she had got a brand new TV and she was excited to watch it. I can tell you one thing, when my kid's dad passed away, that was the only person that was really there at 2, 3, 4 in the morning when I needed to call her.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you that don't know, Christina met Caroline when they were both teen moms. And I'd like to point out Caroline fought so hard to keep her children and support her children. She had just gotten a home, a house. No more apartments, just paid off. Her truck just got a brand new TV for the children and was just so happy. That made her so happy. Christina, how did you meet Caroline?

[Christina Salinas]

I met her because she was dating my daughter's dad brother. We were sister in law's and we were still sister in laws up until they had split up a couple months ago. And then we be like we just became best of friends. She met me when my daughter was born and she was there and she helped my daughter when she first came out the hospital.

[Nancy Grace]

How long have you known Caroline?

[Christina Salinas]

I known her for nine years. Nine years. Five years. She was my sister in law.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, you're seeing shots of this beautiful young mom Caroline leaving behind five children that day. Christina, was she with her children in that intersection. Was she alone?

[Christina Salinas]

I believe she was with her nephew.

[Nancy Grace]

Christina, I know the funeral for Caroline is Thursday. Will you be there?

[Christina Salinas]

Of course. I'm actually going to take the personal time off from work to attend it. I am going to be there. I'm going to be there to support everybody. I just want justice to be served from my friend. I know there's a lot of nasty comments out there that people are saying and nobody really knows a truthful story to it. And I get it. And I just got to let everybody know that she was a great, loving person. She deserves her justice, not just her, but her children. It's horrible.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Sydney Silvani joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. That video of Caroline being stabbed was all over the Internet. We're not showing it tonight. Sydney, in lieu of the actual stabbing where people, I can't wait to hear what Dr. Bethany Marshall has to say about this. Thought to video the stabbing and post it instead of calling 911. That's a whole nother can of worms. But in lieu of the video, Sydney Silvani, what happened?

[Sydney Silvani]

Our understanding is that Caroline was minding her own business. She was driving around town. This is a very, very busy intersection. This is one of the main roads going through Del Rio. And she stopped at this intersection and three young women are suddenly attacking her. She's surrounded. We know the details from this video that she was surrounded, but Caroline stood her ground and she wound up stabbed in the back twice and stabbed in the side of her abdomen once and two of those stabs again in her back. And the videos that are now no longer circulating that we are refusing to show on our show. You can see the blood stains coming through a pink shirt that she was wearing during that attack. This was horrific. And we have those videos because bystanders were watching and taking photos and videos Instead of calling 91 1.

[Nancy Grace]

This is eerily reminiscent of the stabbing death of a beautiful young woman on her way to work on a light rail train in North Carolina arena, as she is known, minding her own business when the perp unknown to her comes up behind her and stabs her dead. We again are not showing the moment of impact. And the bystanders, instead of helping Irena, choose to video the entire thing. To add insult to injury, there's actually a chance her attacker may walk. He is claiming that he is ineffective at helping his lawyers, that he is incompetent to help them at trial and if he never becomes competent, he will ultimately be released. That's the Status of that case. Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her now on Peacock, Tock and Bravo and find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. bethany, also the star of a hit podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, just as you were seeing the video of Irina being stabbed on the light rail in North Carolina, just minding her own business, working two jobs, thinking she was living the American dream, she was here from Ukraine, leaving war torn Ukraine for a better life here, and then was stabbed. Just cold, cold blooded. And people instead of helping, choose to take videos.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And you know, Nancy, she slumped to her side on that seat in the train. And I watched the video. People were just shuffling around. They shuffled off the train rather than coming to her aid. Sadly, Nancy, the bystander effect, and there's been research on this, is when somebody watches a gruesome crime, they look around and they say, well, there's 20 other people here. Why should I take responsibility? And so in a catastrophic and kind of a perverted, deranged way, they dissociate themselves from the victim and from responsibility. And there's a way to break that. Nancy. The best way to break the bystander effect, as Irunya Zarutska's observers should have done, is to signal one other person out of the crowd and to say, come help me. Like that. Lack of consciousness and responsibility can get broken in that very simple way. But sadly, with our current victim, Nancy, they just videotaped a mom collapsing.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Dr. Bethany I have put the cart before the horse. I am focusing on the people that took the video. Vultures. I want to focus on these little harpies, these jackals, these hyenas, three young girls, including the quote, smiling sisters. And you know, nobody would have believed this if it were not for Michael Elizondo. I'd like to point out that Michael Elizondo, who is an independent journalist, is not the person that videotaped the actual knife attack and put it online. That is not him. He came upon the scene at the time of the arrest. And if it hadn't been for Michael Elizondo and getting this video, no one would believe the arrogance of these two. Check it out, sisters Cookie and Kitty smiling at the camera. Oh yeah, one back over the shoulder, look. And then smiling at the camera as she's being driven away and sticking her tongue out. I mean, nobody would believe it. Dr. Bethany Marshall, but for Michael Elizondo quickly getting this video, this is from good citizen at YouTube. On YouTube. What about that, Dr. Bethany? The way they played to the camera,

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

sticking their tongue out like they're a rock star, like they're Miley Cyrus or something, like they're. They're getting ready for their close up. You know, my first thought when I, When I read about this crime, Nancy, besides feeling devastated for those five children, two of whom have special needs, is that these girls must have been envious towards the victim. Who knows what that means or how that played out? There was some hidden relationship. There were. That we're going to learn about. And the hidden relationship might simply be that these banshees, as you called them, were lurkers on the victim's social media. Watching how beautiful she is. She just gotten her car paid off. A home, a TV for her children. She was living the life. She was a beautiful, beautiful woman. This is just a theory, but I'm going to bet on the fact that this, this will have played a role in some way. And this was their moment of glory, their TikTok selfie moment when those handsome cops were walking them towards the police car.

[Nancy Grace]

Sticking your tongue out for a photo or a selfie is being playful or silly. It has kind of evolved into a trendy selfie pose on platforms like TikTok and Insta. Playfulness, fun, flirting, teasing. That is the way it's typically interpreted. Michael Elizondo joining us, independent journalist who recorded the footage of the sisters smiling at their arrest, flirting with the cops. Okay, Michael Elizondo, again, thank you for being with us. I just wanted you to hear what Christina had to say and the gravity of what occurred before you took this video. Could you describe again, Michael Elizondo, very slowly for us tonight, what you observed? Oh, there's Miss Hot Pants with the shirt, the halter shirt with the hands holding her breasts. Okay, not judging. I'm not the church lady. I don't care what she wears. I do care about the smiling and the posing and the mugging and the sticking the tongue out. This ain't insta, ladies. And you're headed to the big dollhouse, so let that soak in. Michael, what did you observe?

[Michael Elizondo]

I didn't know what was going on. I didn't have no knowledge of what happened. I just saw her smiling, panting, whatever it was. Then the cops put her in a vehicle. Then I see the window go down and I noticed her face can't go out the window. Smiling and staring at her tongue like nothing happened. I was like, okay, what's going on here? Why is she happy being arrested. That threw me off. I didn't know about the stabbing until later that night. At one morning, my family member gets a phone call stating that that incident I went to was a stabbing and the victim was my cousin and she passed away. And that hit me like a ton of bricks. And I was like, I can wrap myself around it even right now.

[Nancy Grace]

I am so sorry. So you go to this scene when you discover there's some sort of a disturbance. You get there, you video these jackals. That's all I can call them. They approach a 32 year old, gorgeous young mom of five, surround her. According to witness accounts, she's unarmed. She's standing there in the crosswalk. You catch them being arrested. Let's take a look at that.

[Michael Elizondo]

Another girl right here.

[Nancy Grace]

To renowned veteran defense attorney joining us, founder of the law offices of Eric Faddis, the Eric Faddis. That's not going to help because Michael Elizondo's video that you just saw, when this goes to trial, it will come into evidence because the jury can consider actions before, during and after the crime. And they will see Ms. Thing shooting a bird out the window. And they'll also hear her saying, thanks to Michael Elizondo, why are you filming me? Stop, stop. Don't stop. And mugging for the camera and sticking out her tongue in a playful gesture.

[Eric Faddis]

Yeah, Nancy, a tragic set of circumstances here. Not an appropriate reaction. You know, I think her attorneys are going to say, have you ever known a 19 year old to have an inappropriate reaction in a set of circumstances? You know, have you heard of a concept, nervous laughter that that's something that people resort to when they don't know what else to do. These are some very young people here. I indication that they've been, you know, perped walk by police while being filmed. You hear them say, stop filming me. You talked about on social media how people have certain reactions when they're being filmed and selfies and things like that. Perhaps it was reflexive in a sense. Perhaps she didn't know what else to do under these circumstances. Not the right choice, but. But you know, something that the jury might be able to understand in terms of her age and unfamiliarity with such a situation.

[Nancy Grace]

I can't wait to be in that courtroom when the defense attorney argues, have you ever known a 19 year old to act inappropriately inappropriate Faddis. That's the tip of the iceberg. And they are showing no remorse at all. I mean, Chris McDonough joining me, Director at the Cold Case foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 homicide investigations under his belt. I found him on YouTube. He is the star of the interview room. McDonough this is like a romp for prosecutors, a field day to show that kind of behavior and the fact that the mom Caroline is stabbed in the back. Go on, girl. You just keep shooting that bird and sticking your tongue out, out. We'll see how the jury likes that.

[Christina Salinas]

What about it?

[Chris McDonough]

Mcdonough yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean this is consequences are an afterthought. You know, this is the, this is an ambush style attack of a mother. The questions are always going to be for the investigators, you know, where the my, where did the knife come from? You know, and those are going to be type of premeditation questions that they're going to try to put together. This is a 32 year old mother of five children. She's gone in a split second, broad daylight. Now her kids are going to face life without her because of a vicious attack that should never have ever happened. This wasn't some dark alley at midnight. This was broad daylight on a busy street in Del Rio, Texas, where every single mother should feel safe.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The mugging for the camera, the sticking the tongue out. The shooting a bird, the laughing, the preening and posturing. Wait, where's the other one with the hands over her breasts on her shirt like someone is grabbing her breasts from behind. I want to see that one too.

[Bethenny Frankel]

Ms.

[Nancy Grace]

Hot Pants. There you go. Okay, I'm not much on fashion, but I know that's all wrong. Let's have a reality check. Dr. Kendall Crown's joining us. He is the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's not easy to get to. Tarrant county is Fort Worth, Texas. Let's just say the morgue is always busy. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at tcu and he is a star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the Morgue. Reality check. Dr. Kendall Crowns. What happened to this mother of five?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

So she was stabbed twice in the back, once in the side. The stab wounds to the back penetrated her chest cavity and went into her lungs. This stab wound on the side penetrated abdominal cavity, and it went into her stomach. So let's first talk about the stomach wound. So if a knife hits the stomach, you're going to get your stomach acids coming out into your abdominal cavity, and that's going to result in an infection and irritation, and that's called peritonitis. And that, over time, can result in your death. But it isn't something that happens right away. It's very painful, and it takes a long time to die from peritonitis. Now, the stab wounds to the lungs, on the other hand, will collapse. The lungs make it difficult for the individual to breathe. If both lungs are hit, it almost makes it impossible for them to breathe. But either way, you're going to have bleeding into the chest cavity. The hemorrhage into the chest cavity is going to fill the chest cavity up with blood. Your lungs aren't going to be able to expand, and you'll basically suffocate. She didn't die right away. From reports, it sounds like she dies several hours later. They tried to do surgery, things like that, to save her, but she still ultimately died. So the reasoning behind that is initially, the injuries could have caused a drop in blood pressure from the loss of blood, causing her brain not to get enough oxygen, resulting in her brain already being dead. It just took her a little while longer for her body to die as well. So this is a really rough case because she didn't die right away. She's just laying there bleeding out from two stab wounds to her chest and one to her abdomen. And ultimately she dies from the sharp force injuries. But it took a while.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Kendall crowns, you stated that it took a while. What that means to me is she would have lain there on the asphalt, probably knowing she was dying. Do you believe the human brain can continue to have coherent thoughts? Could she have been thinking about her children? Who's going to take care of them? What's going to happen to them? Does your brain still work as you're bleeding out?

[Dr. Kendall Crowns]

Yes. Since her brain isn't compromised, there's no information that she was beat into unconsciousness. She would be able to have a thought process during that time period of anything, including her children. Most mothers would think of their children as their last thoughts. Also, you have to remember, in the hot Texas sun, The asphalt's probably 120 degrees as well. So she's not only bleeding out but she's being burned by laying on the sidewalk. So her last thoughts are probably, who knows what they are? But my bet would be she's probably thinking about who's going to take care of my children. And then she passes away.

[Nancy Grace]

All of these claims are just that, claims in an arrest warrant. These three are presumed innocent as of tonight. These three banshees, as I have referred to them, hyenas, jackals, are more concerned about how they're going to look in Michael Elizondo's video. I don't understand it. Dr. Bethany Marshall these two are focused on how they're going to look in Michael Elizondo's video and pouting and primping for their mug shots. Caroline is dead. She's got five children without a mother. And could you touch on their special needs for two of them that are autistic?

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

And Nancy, let's start with the children, because they're the most important children who are autistic. They need socialization at critical learning periods. The youngest one little girl, is only three years old. That's a primary time in an autistic child's life where they need face to face engagement with the mother. They need floor time, floor play. They need to be able to manipulate blocks and toys and things like that as a form of engagement with people, people around them. And you think of an autistic child who has a difficult time tracking with the thoughts and emotions of the others. So, so Caroline would be the one to help them with that. And then you see these adult girls, adult women, who, like you said, are like banshees, hyenas. This is their moment of greatness. Nancy I see I, I hear arrogance, like with Shrilla, or I see arrogance and the trout pout, the tongue sticking out. It's like they have fantasies of greatness, brilliance, beauty and being at the center of things. They are triumphing over the victim. Nancy I think probably what happened, we're going to learn that Caroline was somebody that they envied. And now they're trying to direct all the attention towards themselves. You know what? They're not going to get the attention they want when they're behind bars. It's just not going to be the same.

[Nancy Grace]

Chris McDonough joining us, star of the Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, what do you make of the fact that she was stabbed in the back?

[Chris McDonough]

You know, that just goes to show us how violent this situation was. And the fact that, you know, when you see the sisters, you know, smiling after their arrest, and that has rightfully so outraged the Public These are the faces of alleged killers who show zero remorse. Right after taking the mother from her five children and the stabbing of the back in the back in that type of target set is specific to this thought process of they just don't care. And when mothers aren't safe in the middle of the day, no one is.

[Bethenny Frankel]

Do it.

[Christina Salinas]

Ready? Yeah,

[Nancy Grace]

I'm gonna. You were seeing Caroline taking a video off her new TV that she got for her children. Let's see that again on mute, please. That's Caroline and her youngest daughter. They're celebrating that they finally got a tv, a nice big one, and all the children are happy. Then you see her on a merry go round with her children, going around and around, laughing, smiling. It's all gone. They're just videos now. Eric Faddis, they'll never have her back. What is any possible defense? Faddis, you've won a lot of cases. Where would you go as the defense attorney?

[Eric Faddis]

Tragic loss. Nancy, from a defense perspective, you've got to explore every possible defensive avenue here. Look, I don't think this happened just spur of the moment, spontaneously, without any escalation, without any backdrop, without any story behind it. There were interactions that happened leading up to this. On top of that, you know the keondra Faz, the 21 year old co defendant does tell police that the alleged victim arrived at trying to start a fight. You know, we're still learning all of the facts about this, but. But I think there are stories here that have not yet been told. Do those stories resonate somewhere in the world of self defense, of defense, of others, of heat, of passion? I think there are a lot of things that are on the table as the facts continue to unfurl in this case.

[Nancy Grace]

I had a feeling that's where you were going. But isn't it true? Sidney Silvani, Crime stories, investigative reporter. They the three defendants show up with a knife. She, Caroline, the victim is unarmed. Isn't that true?

[Sydney Silvani]

Absolutely. And why the need to carry a knife? A large enough knife to create devastating injuries. A pocket knife is one thing. Something like this that took this mom of five from this world, that doesn't seem like an accident.

[Nancy Grace]

Search your heart if you can. Here is the information for the GoFundMe support for Caroline Pena's children. This will cover hopefully their expenses and likely expenses for her funeral. And as we go to air tonight, these three are innocent. Presumed innocent under the law. Presumed innocent unless and until the state pierces that presumption with evidence proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. If you know or think you know anything about the brutal attack daytime broad daylight attack of Caroline, please call Del Rio PD. Kennedy, TX 830-774-2711. Repeat, 830-774-2711. We remember American hero Sergeant Corby Kennedy, San Angelo PD, Texas, just 44 killed in the line of duty after 20 years, leaving behind his wife Georgiana and three children, Caitlin, Emily and Jackie. American hero Sergeant Corby Kennedy. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night.

[America 250 Announcer]

This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.

Experience music, performances by major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history.

It's more than just fireworks.

Join this landmark celebration and get your America's Block Party Tickets now for $17.76

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at america250.org LA It's America's 250th, but you deserve some presents too. Simon Malls, mills and premium outlets have can't miss sales July 3rd to 15 join Simon plus our new rewards program for free and get 2.5 times the points. In addition to extra savings, cash back and offers that also [e-mail] grab the fam, head to a Simon center and make it a day for the books. It's a sale, a bration thing. Sign up [e-mail] rewards program terms apply. See SimonPlus.com for details.

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[Nancy Grace]

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