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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
'"SORRY, SHE DIED:" NANCY GUTHRIE RANSOM NOTES TO SNARE SUSPECTS
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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I heart podcast.
- [00:03]
Joseph Scott Morgan
Guaranteed human Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts.
- [00:10]
Nancy Grace
I. I can't stop scratching my downtown. Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown.
- [00:21]
Lisa Miller
Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.
- [00:25]
Joseph Scott Morgan
There's no question too embarrassing For Amazon Health AI chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24. 7 Healthcare just got less painful.
- [00:35]
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- [01:06]
Troy Millings
This is Troy Millings from Earn your leisure. When traveling for events or festivals throughout the country, every dollar matters. We compare flights prices, hotel rates, and restaurant options. So why wouldn't we compare rides? Personally, I always check Lyft before booking a ride. Prices can change throughout the day depending on traffic, weather, and what's happening in the city. If you're headed to a concert, out to dinner, or catching up with your friends on a Friday night, taking a few seconds to check Lyft could leave you with more money to enjoy the experience. Save money. Check lift.
- [01:38]
Andrea Gunning
This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Weekly. This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was a man who she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Betrayal Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu
- [02:13]
Nancy Grace
on Disney Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Sorry, she died.
- [02:24]
Co-host or Guest
Really?
- [02:25]
Nancy Grace
The Nancy Guthrie ransom notes could be the key to snaring the suspects. What do we know tonight? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. The ransom notes are all a hoax. Then why, at the get go, was Savannah told they were legitimate? Patel says Nanos. Nano says Patel. Who can we trust? Is this real?
- [03:09]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
I think anybody who reads them, my investigators, we look at it and clearly there's things in there that are very concerning too, to our investigative team. So we. We hope that by releasing the actual note, we'll get some response from the community.
- [03:25]
Andrea Gunning
Did the Guthrie family know you'd be ready?
- [03:28]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
Absolutely.
- [03:28]
Nancy Grace
I love when Nano's puts on his serious face. Okay, he's just released two ransom notes, the ones that were indicated to us by Savannah as being legitimate. But then he goes on to suggest they're not legit in direct contradiction to what she has been obviously told by the FBI. Now he releases the notes. But wait a minute. What did he just say? What did he just say? Listen, is Nancy Guthrie alive or based on everything that you have right now?
- [04:05]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
I have nothing to indicate she's dead. I don't have a body, I don't have a burial site. I don't have any note.
- [04:12]
Nancy Grace
What did he just say? That's my friends at cbs. Play it one more time. Control room, please. I gotta hear this. Is Nancy Guthrie alive or based on everything that you have right now?
- [04:21]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
I have nothing to indicate she's dead. I don't have a body, I don't have a burial site. I don't have any note.
- [04:28]
Nancy Grace
Okay, then he releases the. The ransom notes. Dave Mack joining me, crime stories, investigative reporter. Is it him or my lion ears? Did I just hear him say about 24 hours before he releases the ransom notes that say sorry, she's dead? Did he just say, I don't have a body, I don't have a burial site, I don't have a Note? And then 24 hours, bam, he releases the note saying she's dead.
- [05:03]
Co-host or Guest
He actually says note. That's what kind of got me more than anything Nancy is you know, to just offhandedly say, I don't have a body. Okay, fine. But he says note, and then releases the very thing he says he doesn't have. Where we have alleged kidnappers saying we didn't realize how bad she was. She's now in nature. It is the most ridiculous.
- [05:25]
Nancy Grace
You know what? And I have reason to believe. Dave Mack, and I'm going to an expert on this, Lisa Miller is joining us. I have reason to believe that the note was transcribed into English. To me it sounds like English is a second language, but that's a whole another can of worms. Let's see the ransom notes. Please put up the ransom notes in chronological order, please. Quickly. Number one. Hello, Savannah. Yeah, right there. I don't like that. That's a degree of some familiarity from a guy that steals your 84 year old mother in her PJs, without shoes, without her glasses that are hearing aids, without her Watch. Nothing. Hi, Savannah. Really, I can't. Can't wait for Dr. Bethany to get a hold of that. We have your mother. She's safe but scared. She will be held for ransom. Once payment is received, she will be released unharmed. You need to send Bitcoin in the amount of $4 million USD. Another suggestion. This is a foreign national. Who says USD when I go to the gas station, nobody says. Okay, that'll be $43 USD before 5pm on the 5th. Once payments received to the bitcoin address, she will be released within 12 hours to a safe drop off location back in Tucson. Let's see the rest. Chop chop. If payment is not received by the last deadline, she will be killed. Your mother is aware of this and her life is in your hands. Dot, dot, dot. That's interesting. The dot, dot, dot. Who does that? She had a white smart watch on the floor of the foot of her bed. And the white floodlight in backyard was destroyed. Let's go now to the second note so we can compare and contrast. Second note. This I believe came on the 6th. Guthrie family. We did not fully grasp the seriousness of her physical condition. Oh, laying it on her. It's her fault she's ill. It's her fault she's 84 years old. It's her fault we didn't understand her problem. We never intended to hurt her, comma. That was not our intention. That's called splicing, where you make a statement and then you comma. And then you make the statement again. That's the stylistic issue that Lisa Miller is going to explain. In fact, I prosecuted a bank robbery based on comma use. She perished shortly after she was taken. We believe it was heart related. Oh, thank you, doctor. She is buried in nature. Now who says that again? Translation. Nothing you could have done could have changed the outcome. We want nothing you could have done. Well, how about something he could have done, like not kidnap her to start with. We want your family to know this and hope you can all find peace. Sorry. Oh, I mean. Okay. Straight out to Lisa Miller. Joining us, former detective, former chief Investigator, Senior Executive, CO, the AG's office at Lisa. Lisa Miller CO. She initially thought two people had written the ransom note, but after reading them in full, she thinks they're written by one person. Maybe I didn't think deeply enough, Lisa, but I always thought they were both written by one person. And then after that, all the others. Eh, no. Also the same IP address. That's a big red flag. It's the same person, but I can't wait to hear your analysis. Tell me everything.
- [09:34]
Lisa Miller
Well, initially, we kept hearing reports about the excerpts, and it sounded like the second note was a massive shift in tone, and it definitely was different than what we're seeing in the first. So that lended me from reporting to think that maybe two, even though it came from the same ip. However, when we start taking a look at the two notes together, and I think one of the most definitive things that links these two notes are these comma splices that you explained. Two sentences unnecessarily separated by the comma. The second sentence in these two notes is a reinforcing statement. So it's not necessary. Like, we never intended to hurt her. That was not our intention. Why? Why say both of those things? And it's repetitive. It was not our intention. We did not intend to hurt her. And then we're also seeing open compounds in both of these statements. Most people, when they write out smartwatch, it's smartwatch, one word, floodlight, one word. If they see heart related, they hyphenate. Heart related. But in these notes, we're seeing these open compounds, the smart watch, two separate words, not together. Heart related, no hyphen. So we're seeing these things. They seem to leak stylistically. And for that reason, I have to make caveat here, though. These are both short notes, so it's hard to say definitively.
- [11:12]
Nancy Grace
You can.
- [11:13]
Lisa Miller
You can't assign to Jenner. It's hard to say definitively that it's from one person, but based on what we have, that's the best analysis.
- [11:22]
Nancy Grace
Lisa, didn't they both come from the same IP address?
- [11:25]
Lisa Miller
That is my understanding from reporting, yes.
- [11:28]
Nancy Grace
I'm glad you said it that way, because, you know, I never know which end of nanos things are coming out of this end or the other one. I'm still stunned. Day. Day 100, he goes, we don't have a note. Day 101. Here's the note. Okay, all star panel jumping in, straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She's the author of Deal Breaker. In the midst of her second book. She's seen on Peacock, on Hulu, on Bravo, and she's the star of a new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us. Okay, I know you're going to have a field day with this. Let's start. Let's put up the first. The first ransom note that has been released. The whole point of this tonight is will it help us catch her killer. That's the issue. Oh, hey, let me see. Lisa Miller, real quick. Lisa. Lisa, look at this. I actually had it framed at the time. This was used in front of a jury, my jury, in my first bank robbery case. Don't, comma, touch, comma, the alram, comma, alram. Dyslexic. This is a Robyn. He also was a prolific user of apostrophe marks. When I tracked down a witness, not an eyewitness, but a circumstantial witness, that knew a little bit about what the bank robber was wearing at the time of the robbery, stylistically. So I got a line on him. The witness was, of course, in the Fulton County Jail. I had him submit to a handwriting analysis and got a known handwriting. And that use of commas turned the case. It turned the case. So, comma, splicing, Odd use of commas, odd phraseology. Exactly what you're talking about. I wasn't as schooled as you were as you are, but I knew what I could see. Okay. Sorry, Dr. Bethany, but I had to go get that to show it to Lisa. Okay, Bethany, hit it.
- [13:51]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Well, whoever wrote this note is obsessive because he or she repeats the same phrases multiple times, like hyperbole. It's interesting. We have your mother, Nancy. She perished. She's in nature. Now, this person is trying to act sympathetic to form a bond to with Savannah. In a way, he or she is trying to manipulate Savannah into believing them. It's a little like the BTK Killer. When he defended himself in court, he said about one of the victims, hey, I'm a nice guy. I comforted her before I strangled her or before I put a pillow over her face. So this person who wrote the note.
- [14:30]
Nancy Grace
Okay, wait. You're talking so fast. Bethany, this is not a speed race. Slow it down. Okay, what did you just say?
- [14:41]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
The BTK Killer, in an attempt to persuade the jury that he was not guilty, said, I'm not a bad guy. I comforted her before I killed her. The author of this note is trying to get sympathy from Savannah. And I think the we have your mother, Nancy. She perished. Was her heart. She's in nature. It sounds a little bit like the sociopath manipulating the victim before they slash their throat. It's a highly manipulative note. The first note asks for money. The second says, oh, never mind. She perished. That tells me that by the time the author gets to the second note, they're more worried about being brought up on homicide murder charges than. Than the 4 million that they wanted originally. I Do have an image of a wife or girlfriend standing over the author's note saying, oh, add this, add that. As if one is not enough, you gotta say it again and again. I do believe the author is obsessive that they took a long time to write this note. The author is not. Is an expatriate because of the USD and they take the. Almost like a European might say they were in hospital, not they were in the hospital. So I noticed that as well. And I think finally, you know, the fact that there's these shifts and turns throughout the notes. You know, when I wrote my doctoral dissertation, I was told to consult with everybody in the department, about 30 people. By the time I defended my dissertation. The committee said it sounds like it was written by 30 people. I'm like, yeah, I consulted with 30 people. It sounds like this guy or gal handed the note around, deliberated, thought a lot about it. But again, primarily it's the manipulative tone. So if you, whoever's listening, have some. Has somebody in your household who, who over talks is manipulative, grandiose, uses hyperbole, a lot of verbal flourishes, you should think very carefully about where that person was the night Nancy Guthrie went missing.
- [17:07]
Nancy Grace
Okay, back to you, Lisa Miller, who has done an incredible analysis of this note. What do you make of what Bethany just said? And our whole purpose tonight is to try to use these notes to. To identify the killer. And he will be charged with felony murder. Even if his fantastical claim is true, that Ms. Guthrie died of natural causes, whenever a death occurs during the commission of a felony equals felony murder, which is murder one, which does get the death penalty. It doesn't matter if you didn't intend for the person to die. If they die in the commission of a felony, that would be kidnap or burglary. That's a felony murder punishable by the death penalty. Now, you heard what Dr. Bethany said. Now, I have great respect for Dr. Bethany. A clairvoyant, I don't know that. But her image, she says of a girlfriend standing over the. The writer's shoulder is not far fetched. That said, what do you make of it?
- [18:19]
Lisa Miller
You know, I have much respect for everything that was said. From an investigative standpoint, I look at the second note kind of like I looked at the offender across the table from me back when I was doing interviews of murderers or even the worst offenders that did some of the worst crimes against children. They always minimize their involvement. They turn it. The second note, it is a passive thing. Nancy perished. Nancy didn't perish you did something horrible by taking a vulnerable elderly woman out of the house and you caused this. But that's how they choose to distance themselves. It's. It's very common against that. We hear the worst criminals do this. They. They take a passive role. It's always someone else's fault. It's definitely that their fault. And then I'm taking a look at like the phrasing of perished and buried in nature. Odd statements, right? We have to evaluate could that be translation artifact from the translation tool or is it possibly idiolect something from where this individual has. We all have this here in the states. Most of us speak English. We different parts of the state, we have different slang that we use. That's our idiolect. It's individ individual to us. So perhaps this person, the buried in nature, the perished is their own idiolect. And so what people should be looking for at this point in time is looking at whether actually asked to watch behavioral changes post offense. Think about who writes like the dates, the dates that were written in the notes. Who writes their dates out like that? Who maybe uses Parish every now and then? Who have you heard that uses buried in nature?
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- [21:50]
Andrea Gunning
This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Weekly. This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was the man she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Betrayal Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [22:26]
Troy Millings
This is Troy Millings from Earn your leisure. When traveling for events or festivals throughout the country, every dollar matters. We compare flights prices, hotel rates and restaurant options. So why wouldn't we compare rides? Personally, I always check Lyft before booking a ride. Prices can change throughout the day depending on traffic, weather, and what's happening in the city. If you're headed to a concert, out to dinner, or catching up with your friends on a Friday night, taking a few seconds to check lift could leave you with more money. To enjoy the experience. Save money. Check Lift.
- [23:00]
Nancy Grace
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
- [23:05]
Savannah Guthrie
On behalf of our family, we want to thank all of you for the prayers for our beloved mom, Nancy. We feel them, and we continue to believe that she feels them, too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun and adventure. She is a devoted friend. She is full of kindness and knowledge. Talk to her and you'll see. The light is missing from our lives. Nancy is our mother. We are her children. She is our beacon. She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances. She chooses joy day after day, despite having already passed through great trials of pain and grief. We are always going to be merely human. Just normal human people who need our mom. Mama. Mama, if you're listening, we need you to come home.
- [24:48]
Nancy Grace
That was a portion of one of Savannah Guthrie's first pleas to bring her mother home. That is before she got the second note stating that Mrs. Guthrie is dead and she had to put on a brave face and go back into the anchor chair in front of millions of people, knowing the very distinct possibility her mother is dead. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a star of hit series Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. But most important, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. When I say professor of forensics, that doesn't just include as a death investigator, he investigates the scene. How are these notes going to help us? And I haven't even gotten into all of nano's screw ups that are now coming to light. Let me just direct your attention very quickly, Joe Scott Morgan, to other missives that have resulted in a bust. That would be obviously Theodore Kaczynski, the Unabomber. He had a 35,000 word manifesto. Nut job. Here we've only got about 284 words. That's a good question, not only for you, but for Lisa as well. What can we do with those 284 words? Then there are others. You've got Israel Keys, who sent a ransom note, including a photograph. So Scott Morgan, as you and I discussed in the past of the victim dead and he had heavily made her up and sewn her eyes open and blurried the photo. So the victim father, remember her, the young barista, Samantha Koenig, blurred the photo so her father could not tell whether she was dead or alive and then sent a ransom note. He was caught. Then you've got other. Oh yeah, btk. He sent ripped written taunts buying torture, killed Dennis Raider. Oh, there's his ugly face. He's still alive. Amazingly. Then let's see, there's so many more. You've got Zodiac, who taunted with written notes, never identified. That's helpful right there. I can't tell a thing about him. And there are others. Oh yes, Son of Sam Berkowitz caught written missives. Okay. Look at him.
- [27:39]
Chelsea Handler
Oh,
- [27:42]
Nancy Grace
okay. Joe Scott, forensically. What can I do with this? What can you add, Joe Scott, that Lisa hasn't already told us? Speak now.
- [27:51]
Joseph Scott Morgan
Yeah, I think the thing that really reaches out to me is that where they say we didn't intend to hurt her and they talk about this intention again. And for me, that goes to the idea that they did in fact hurt her. And guess what? We've got evidence of that. Evidence that, by the way, and I'll say it plainly, that was ignored to their own peril now, and that is that blood deposition that we had on that front porch that they seemingly walked over ignored whatever the hell they were doing at that moment in time. And they didn't see the import in this. And so for me, these two things are connected. I, you know, it's, it's very easy to sit here and say, yeah, she was infirm and, you know, she had physical problems. I've got a lot more questions relative to this because they're the ones that bring up the term hurt. They're the ones that say this, and we have evidence of violence here. As far as I'm concerned, that's deposition of blood that has originated from the nasopharynx area. I am of the opinion that they popped this poor lady in the face to try to get her to comply and she bled right there. I'm not saying she bled out, but they started her down this road. I don't give two hoots in hell what your intention was. She wound up dying in your custody. Illegal custody, by the way. This is a kidnapping. Obviously you are held directly responsible for this. So these people are violent. They are very violent. And now they're wanting to go back on this. I think that they just, by virtue of that second note, they know that there is a chance they're going to have to pay a heavy price for this. Now, if they can get their wires straight relative to the investigative team and get marshaled on the line to head in the right direction investigatively, hopefully it's not too late. I think that there's still a chance that they can find out whoever it is that did this. Because, look, as far as I'm concerned, these people are crazy. They're still out there and they can do harm to other people.
- [30:06]
Herobread Advertiser
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- [31:06]
Andrea Gunning
This is Andrea Gunning from Betrayal Weekly. This is a stunning story based on the hit true crime podcast Betrayal. He was a tall, handsome police officer, the man of her dreams. Caroline knew right away he was the man she would spend her life with. But then she got a text that changed everything. The man she loved was having affair after affair with so many different women in his cop car while on duty. I implore you to watch Betrayal Dirty Secrets now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.
- [31:42]
Troy Millings
This is Troy Millings from Earn your leisure when traveling for events or festivals throughout the country, every dollar matters. We compare flights prices, hotel rates and restaurant options. So why wouldn't we compare rides? Personally, I always check Lyft before booking a ride. Prices can change throughout the day depending on traffic, weather and what's happening in the city. If you're headed to a concert, out to dinner, or catching up with your friends on a Friday night, taking a few seconds to check Lyft could leave you with more money to enjoy the experience. Save money. Check Lyft.
- [32:14]
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- [33:17]
Nancy Grace
Book Today Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Morgan Wright joining a cybersecurity expert former detective, he has actually trained the FBI CART team on Internet investigations. He is the founder and the CEO of the national center for Open and unsolved cases. Also, he's editor and host, the Star of Crime Reconstructed. Morgan, thank you for being with us. Jump in.
- [33:49]
Morgan Wright
I'm going to go a different tact on a lot of this stuff. A lot of my training also comes out of the intelligence community. I train members, the damage assessment people at nsa, CIA, FBI. I'm looking at a lot of this stuff and I'm saying we're making a lot of assumptions and these assumptions are not yet grounded in fact. So I take a look at even the ransom communications. And my first thought is Earl Edwin Pitts, FBI agent, rested under a false flag operation by the FBI. Once the wall came down, we started seeing this information. I look at these communications. There's not enough material in there to do it. Like in the Unabomber case, by the way, Some of the folks you know, like Mary Ellen O', Toole worked with a friend of mine, Dr. William Tafoya, to revise the profile of the Unabomber. What they originally thought was not it. It was a Luddite in his 50s, very technically advanced. So that was Kaczynski. So I take a look and I say, oh, there are alternative views of this information that we could have, especially the ransom note. So real quickly, here is somebody who is sophisticated enough to establish Bitcoin. They use the Bitcoin address in addition to the IP address. The one thing we know is the Bitcoin address was put in both emails. So the ability to do that shows it's that right there is documentation. It's the same thing with btk, same thing with Zodiac. You put items in there to document that you are who you say you are. Second thing is that this person, these notes, the originator of these notes has so far eluded identification by the FBI. And Nancy, as you were saying, I mean, many years ago I trained the FBI, but they are now. The student has now become the master. When you can identify Chinese PLA agents, Russian svr, FSB agents, when you can do identify state actors in these investigations in cyberspace, the fact that this person has not yet been identified shows a level of sophistication. So I don't want to assume that these messages are in fact what they're purported to be. I look at it, are they a type of misdirection? Is this more of a psychological type of thing to make you believe that it's somebody overseas or somebody foreign when they're actually not? This is all designed to slow you down, slow down the investigation, make you chase rabbit holes. So I've been very skeptical about these notes. I don't call them ransom notes because even in the note, if you were, as I said before, words mean things. It says white smartwatch. It does not say Apple watch. You could have made a leap of logic to find out that she. That that watch may have been left behind. I don't know that for sure, but I don't see anything proprietary. If you wanted to prove to me that you actually had Nancy, that you were in care, you had the care and custody and control of her, then send me a piece of her clothing. Send me something we can test with DNA to correctly established. In fact, on the screen right now, you can see it's a white apple watch. That it's not just a smartwatch. It's an Apple watch. People also identify by brands. So, Nancy, I've been very skeptical about a lot of this information. I agree that releasing the note might help. But again, as we said about the Unabomber, the difference in the manifesto and the number of words gives you behavioral insight I don't think you can get from a small amount of words here.
- [36:51]
Nancy Grace
Nanos, wake up, man. You want me to call you every morning and wake you up and get you started? You want me to color code your clothes for you, for Pete's sake? That said nanos going down with a ship, pretending everything's hunky dory, a. Okay with the feds. What a crock. Okay, Listen to this lie.
- [37:14]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
It's a good relationship. It's always been a good relationship. You know, we. We've been a member of the what is known as the Southern Arizona Violent Crime Task Force, headed up by the FBI for decades. We've always participated, and to this day, we still do. It's a. It's a. It's not just a great relationship. It's one that's very valued.
- [37:38]
Nancy Grace
Uh, notice he looks right at you and lies so you believe him. Or Hannity and Patel. Listen to this.
- [37:48]
Sheriff or Law Enforcement Official
I understand everybody's frustrations on that.
- [37:51]
I'm not frustrated with you. I'm frustrated that they. If I was a sheriff and the FBI was willing to help me, and time is of the essence, I'd want all the help I can get.
- [38:02]
We have Quantico. Best lab in the world. I had a fixed wing aircraft on the ground ready to move it immediately through the night.
- [38:09]
Did they just say no?
- [38:10]
And they said, we're sending it to Florida. I launched hundreds of agents and intel staff to Phoenix and Tucson just for this case, just to be on standby. They didn't want you just to do the canvassing. And we said, we'll take the DNA.
- [38:20]
Nancy Grace
My ears are bleeding right now at all the missed opportunities. Back to you, Joseph Scott Morgan. You mentioned the blood on the front porch. Let's see it. It's not just there, but it trails off down the walkway, which tells me which way they took her out. It's very obvious. This is from our friends at fox news digital. That was treated like it was nothing. People walked all over it. I mean, later day late, dollar short. We saw a tent erected around the front porch where I guess they were finally processing it, but not before everybody and her little sister tromped all over, including a pizza delivery person.
- [39:09]
Ryan Reynolds
Ruin.
- [39:10]
Nancy Grace
Now, that's on the outside that I can see. I can only imagine the horrors, the evidentiary horrors that took place on the inside. One, DNA. Two. They ignored the fact the back door was propped open. Hello. That's how one perp came in. And I to this day believe the guy, the porch guy, was looking in the window to see if his accomplice had made it to the front door. Yet no forced entry.
- [39:36]
Herobread Advertiser
Why?
- [39:36]
Nancy Grace
Because they came in the back and opened the front door.
- [39:39]
Troy Millings
Duh.
- [39:41]
Nancy Grace
So they completely ignore the back door. They got lilu's valuable critical hours by going back and forth with the family. Do you think she wandered off? Hell, no. She can only walk X number of yards. She didn't wander off. The family kept trying to tell them that. Did they listen?
- [40:00]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
No.
- [40:01]
Nancy Grace
That aircraft, very, very sensitive equipment on it sat on that Runway, fixed wing till dusk, dusk from dawn till dusk. It ain't just a movie, okay? That's how long they waited to do nanose's bidding, and he couldn't get his self together to use it. I'm just giving you a few examples. You know how important the first hours are, Joe Scott.
- [40:34]
Joseph Scott Morgan
Yeah, I do. A high school forensic class would have. Would have pushed everybody away relative to that blood evidence that you see there and would have said, we got to lock this down. That. That's so elemental in. In an investigation. And here's one other thing. You can keep that clip up. This guy moving around out here. Do you see where he's placing his feet out there on those ceramic tiles?
- [41:01]
Morgan Wright
If.
- [41:03]
Joseph Scott Morgan
And you know the old adage about, you know, wishes in one hand, something else in the other, see what fills up first. But if you see this right here and he's stomping around out there, if they had frozen this area down, locked it down, do you realize that they could have done electrostatic Lifts out there, Place Mylar down, lifted shoe prints out there. And, yeah, it's going to be overlaid with other shoe prints. But if you freeze it at that moment in time, you can get an idea as to what he's leaving behind. That's a very dusty area, and you can see every step he takes. You even. How often do we have. Where we have a. This is literally gridded off, Nancy. Yeah, that's. We created that at Jack State. And it would have been so easy to have lifted that off if they just frozen, you know, just frozen in time. That's. That's one of the elements that. That happens in a crime scene investigation. We have the ability to lock things down, freeze them.
- [42:04]
Dr. Bethany Marshall
Right.
- [42:04]
Joseph Scott Morgan
And Lord only knows what happened in that bedroom that has been lost.
- [42:08]
Nancy Grace
Lisa Miller, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
- [42:10]
Lisa Miller
Well, I think, you know, from your time as a prosecutor, there's. There's no such thing as a perfect investigation. There are flaws. Now, admittedly here we have substantial flaws. I agree. That crime scene should have been locked down. That should have been expanded right away. Everybody should have been kicked off of that property. We know that. I have to give the benefit of the doubt here. We didn't have the video of this porch guy walking around in those first days. And there were some mistakes. And as much regard as I have for the FBI, I do not want
- [42:50]
Nancy Grace
to tangle with you because of your expertise and maybe over my head right now. But no, we didn't have the video because Nana's blurted out. There is no video. But we did have the blood trailing off in the direction where she went, so we know she went that way. I don't need a video. I can figure that much out on my own. My two twins could figure that out.
- [43:18]
Lisa Miller
I agree. And a massive misstep by both the FBI because they did come back later. They also did not take that mat. They also did not take that door off and ship it to Quantico for processing. You're exactly right. We saw the blood. So that should have shut down that front entrance area. They also should have seen where the camera. A camera had been removed from the frame, holding it to the door frame. That should have given them an indication.
- [43:51]
Nancy Grace
Good point. Good point. We completely glossed over that. That was a major red flag that she had been taken. Yet they dithered around for hours trying to figure out, did she wander off? And in another blurt of facts, nanos reveals something critical.
- [44:12]
Nano (Law Enforcement Official)
It's very active. We've got a lot of work ahead of us. We've done a lot of work, but we still have more. And there's not just in DNA where labs across the country are working together, but in forensics analysis of thousands and thousands of videos, photos, and we also have still tens of thousands of tips that we come in that come in and we actively watch working them. So it's a. It's a very active investigation.
- [44:41]
Nancy Grace
Every time he speaks, I cringe. Why is DNA all across the country? Because he sent it to his pet lab that he's got a money contract with in Florida. DNA Lab International, I believe is the name. Instead of sending it to experts in this field, they again dithered for weeks and weeks and weeks before it was finally sent to labs that could handle the job. I call on all citizen sleuths, regardless of your expertise. They need help. My mind is open to any analysis, any observation at all regarding these ransom notes. How do you think Kaczynski was solved? Because of the manifesto. It's happened over and over before. If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, dial 800-225-5324. Or if you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward for information leading to Mrs. Guthrie or her remains. Where about a conviction is not required for you to get $1.2 million. We remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Jillian Olson, Lexington County Sheriff, S.C. just 29, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind grieving parents so proud of her. Jim and Molly. American hero. Deputy Sheriff Jillian Olson. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for never giving up in the search for Mrs. Guthrie. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night.
- [47:04]
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- [48:02]
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- [49:04]
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- [49:35]
Nancy Grace
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.