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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace
SPOILED BRAT, HEALTHCARE ASSASSIN LUIGI MANGIONE COURTROOM OUTBURST
01:18:03
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- [00:00]
Nancy Grace
This is an I Heart podcast, Guaranteed human crime stories with Nancy Grace, The so called sexy assassin. I don't even know how those two words go in one sentence. The so called sexy assassin CEO killer Luigi Mangione has an outburst in court as he is led out of the room after being told he is going to trial in June. You know what? Has he been fed with a silver spoon his whole life? Had every privilege, every opportunity, and he still smarts off at the judge.
- [00:49]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Ugh.
- [00:50]
Nancy Grace
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us in the last days. To accused killer Luigi Mangione has an outburst in court as he's being led out of the room. Mangione, 27, made an appearance in Manhattan where the judge declared the state will go forward with trial in June. Now, that's several months earlier than we had predicted, and it will now predate. In other words, happened before federal charges in connection with the shooting death of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Now, his lawyers, Mangioni's lawyers, complained about the new schedule, arguing it would not give them time to prepare. And as he was being led away, he verbally attacked the judge, yelling out, one plus one equals two. This is the same trial twice. This is double jeopardy. Well, you know what, Mangione? While you were surfing in Hawaii and tickling girls, caught on camera now complaining you have a back ailment. Other people were hard at work in law school and trying cases. And maybe you missed law school that day when dual sovereignty was discussed. In other words, the same act can result in state and federal charges. Bam. Look it up, Luigi Mangione. You got plenty of time to do that behind bars. And if you need another lawyer to research it, you can use the tens of thousands of dollars that lovesick females have been sending you behind bars. What is double jeopardy? Double jeopardy means a person cannot be prosecuted for the same crime twice before he killed. Over. I got questions all the time. If O.J. simpson confesses, can he be retried? The sad answer, no, he could never be retried because of double jeopardy. That's why the state better be ready when it tries the case first time. Because you get one swing at the ball, one bite of the apple, that is it. If you fail, it's over. What happened to United Healthcare boss Brian Thompson, a husband and father of precious boys?
- [03:24]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
A masked gunman shoots dead the United Healthcare CEO in midtown Manhattan.
- [03:31]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
An urgent search ensues for the suspect last seen entering Central Park.
- [03:37]
Nancy Grace
Marriage secrets being revealed as this health boss worth millions of Dollars is gunned down and open around the public. What do we make of clues left behind? Cryptic and odd clues. For instance, bullets found actually have been inscribed with letters on them. A cell phone had been left behind. Is there DNA on a water bottle? Was this a pro? A silencer was used. And in the middle of the assassination the gun jams and seemingly the pro shooter simply adjusted and continued firing. Everyone, thank you for being with us. If this can happen in public, what are we to think of it? Well, take a listen to what the Chief of detectives has to say.
- [04:34]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
This morning at 6:46am Patrol offices from Midtown North Precinct responded to a 911 call of a person shot in front of the Hilton hotel located at 1335 Avenue of the Americas. This is between West 53rd street and West 54th Street. At 6:48am Officers arrive and find the victim, Brian r. Thompson, a 50 year old male on the sidewalk in front of the Hilton with gunshot wounds to his back and leg.
- [04:58]
Nancy Grace
You know, the way the shooter handled the weapon, the use of a silencer, the mask, the lying in weight, all indicates a professional hit. But a pro wouldn't want to be caught. A pro would do everything not to get caught. So then why were there especially engraved bullets with cryptic messages on them? It sounds like a fifth grade girl writing a crime thriller. Something's way off with this. Joining me, an all star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, straight out to investigative reporter Lauren Conlon. Joining us, co host PrimeTime Crime on YouTube. And you can find her at PopCrime TV who has gone to the scene and investigated. Lauren, what can you tell us? Yes, Nancy. And the street, the entire street of West 53rd street was blocked off.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
There was plain clothed detectives as well.
- [05:55]
Nancy Grace
As uniformed officers basically not saying anything. I asked questions, I asked witnesses if they heard anything. And the parking lot attendants were actually there earlier that morning. But they said, you know, due to the silencer, they didn't hear anything. Tell me your understanding what you learned of what happened starting at the beginning. Starting at the beginning, I learned that Brian Thompson arrived in New York Monday. Now he was not staying at the Hilton, he was staying at a hotel across the street. He was set to speak at 8am at their annual investors conference and he was arriving early at 6:45. So as he walked into the entrance of the Hilton, it was revealed by NYPD that this gunman was allegedly lying.
- [06:47]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
In wait before he shot him.
- [06:50]
Nancy Grace
Take a listen to Chief Detective Joe Kenney.
- [06:53]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Mr. Thompson was removed by EMS to Roosevelt Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 7:12am Mr. Thompson is the CEO of United Healthcare and resides in Minnesota. Detectives from Night Watch, Midtown North Detective Squad and Manhattan South Homicide responded to the scene and began their investigation.
- [07:10]
Nancy Grace
We're learning a lot. I want to go straight out to Bill Daley joining us from New York, former FBI investigator, forensic photography, international security expert. Bill, thank you for being with us. You see the video stills we're showing? I don't know that a pro will would have done this right in front of a surveillance video.
- [07:31]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Well, you're exactly right, Nancy, is that, you know, people throw on this thing about, you know, professional hitmen. I mean, those are. Those are out of the movies. I mean, this. This could be somebody who trained, who thought it out. Obviously, he's done a lot of reconnaissance and research, but we're talking about professional hit people. That's something made in movies, I would say. Nancy, a couple things I'm quite familiar with this area, being a New Yorker and having worked on the streets of New York for quite a number of years, is that this is actually the side entrance. Mr. Thompson was apparently staying around the corner, we believe, at the Marriott Hotel, which actually gave him a couple of avenues of approach to the hotel. This is the side entrance, the main entrance on 6th Avenue. So for this gunman to know that he was going to be coming down the side street at this time suggests to me there was some other reconnaissance inside information that he knew that he was at another hotel, he wasn't staying at the Hilton, that he'd be coming down this street. He could have. Thompson could have easily walked around 7th Avenue, come down 55th street or another street to grab a cup of coffee, but he didn't. And so there are a couple of things out here that kind of jump out to me that are really concerning with regard to how much information was known about the specific movements of Mr. Thompson that morning.
- [08:38]
Nancy Grace
Bill Daly, I know exactly what you mean about that location, but wouldn't it have been easy for the perp, the killer, to be waiting in the lobby to waiting for the victim, Brian Thompson, to walk out? He didn't have to be lying in wait at that side entrance. He could have simply followed him. He did come up behind him.
- [08:59]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Yeah. I mean, there are a couple of things here, Nancy, that is true. And in fact, you know, if he knew if he was going to be speaking at the conference, he didn't have to be waiting outside. He could have done it just in the lobby, upstairs in an elevator or some other place where he knew there was kind of a kind of choke point where he would have had to travel through in order to get to the conference. The other thing is that which kind of points to perhaps something more, someone from the area or from the region, is the fact that Mr. Thompson lives out in Minnesota. The day to day he comes to and from work, he comes to and from his home. He goes perhaps to see maybe his children's sporting events, who knows what? But those are kind of open areas, other areas where he could have been a target, but yet this was done in New York City, where he doesn't live, where he was visiting, where this person would have only had a couple of days opportunity for any kind of reconnaissance and kind of staging this event. And so it kind of leads me to suggest that this person chose New York either because it's more difficult. You can get lost in the city. You can do things like this. You could have disappear into Central park and perhaps try to hide your trails, you know, or it was a matter of convenience that the person was in and around the area and didn't have to travel to Minnesota.
- [10:01]
Nancy Grace
You're right. The victim in town to speak at an investor conference. Listen, the victim was in New York City to speak at an investor conference. It appears a suspect was lying in wait for several minutes. And as the victim was walking to the conference hotel, the suspect approached from behind and fired several rounds, striking the victim at least once in the back and at least once in the right calf. Many people passed the suspect, but he appeared to wait for his intended target. Well, it's clearly targeted. Bill Daley. There is no robbery, there is no carjacking, there is no sex attack. So it's targeted. Can we look at the photo of the suspect's face? Now, we keep hearing. We don't know much about him, but I can tell you right now, he's white number one. He knows enough to cover his face, but I see that he is not wearing gloves. To Lauren Conlon, what can you tell me about a discarded water bottle? The discarded water bottle, Nancy, was found in the alleyway, which is between 53rd and 54th Street. It's the Ziegfeld Ballroom alleyway. A pro would not leave behind a water bottle. A pro wouldn't even be drinking anything right before you murder somebody.
- [11:24]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Exactly right, Nancy. And goes to my suggestion, this person, again, kind of orchestrated this, preplanned it, thought it out. We can speak about perhaps the weapon a little bit later on. All these things tied to somebody who is knowledgeable about only what they were doing, but certainly not a professional. That's somebody we might see kind of portrayed in the movies. These people would be much more sub rosal about their efforts would kind of not be seen beforehand. And I'm going to suggest to you is that besides this video and these images we have now as a police are looking to kind of put together both the timeline and his trail. There'll be some more coming out and we'll have, we'll have some more facial images. Perhaps the, the DNA may help but as we all know working these cases is you need to have something to compare it to, you need to have some database to compare it to or using ancestral DNA, perhaps tie this person back to someone else and work through that angle. So even though we have all these things and there could be, who knows, maybe fragmented fingerprints on the bullet casings or other evidence left behind, but again, you need something to compare it to.
- [12:26]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
What we know is that the shooter arrived at the location on foot about five minutes prior to the victim's arrival. He stands alongside the building line as numerous other people and pedestrians pass him by. From video we see at 6:44am the victim is walking alone towards the Hilton after exiting his hotel across the street. We believe the victim was headed to the Hilton hotel to attend the UnitedHealth Group Investors Conference that was scheduled to start at 8am Let me look at.
- [12:52]
Nancy Grace
That stance one more time where the shooter is pointing, pointing the gun at the victim. You know, everybody on the panel jump in but Bill Daley, look at that. It looks like someone has been watching too many movies and they think that's a professional killer stance. Do you see, you see that right there? I'm just telling you, look, he doesn't have on gloves. He's been hanging out, drinking from a water bottle that he leaves behind. I also understand a cell phone has been left behind and then he gets on a city bike. It reminds me of a bank robbery I prosecuted where the perp had a bike waiting around the corner. He was anything but a pro and he pedaled off just like this guy is doing. What do you make of that Bill?
- [13:46]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Yeah, all these things kind of add up to the fact that this person again gave some thought, but yet it's about quote, professional. I mean we really don't have these kind of quote professional hit men throughout the country. Maybe the mafia does, but we're not talking about people knocking off executives. This doesn't happen in the United States. Perhaps overseas. And perhaps a concern when people travel to high risk locations, but certainly not in New York City. But I'd probably tell you is that both. That stance is kind of a suggestion that the person thought they knew what they were doing, but also the fact that this gun jam the jam several times, apparently right after each shot. According to police, they believe that it jammed, maybe because there was a silencer on the front. A silencer that perhaps caused the jam to occur. But he did clear it very quickly and efficiently. So he's somebody who did do some practice training with that weapon beforehand.
- [14:33]
Nancy Grace
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Lauren Collin. The gun jammed more than once. Apparently it jammed between shots, but, you know, that didn't stop him. So he. He kept shooting after he. So the answer is yes. A. Okay. That's telling me a lot right there. Daily. Daily. Daily. A pro is going to take a gun that jams between every shot. Really? Yeah.
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Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Well, according to some of the forensic experts is that by using that silencer. And again, silencers are not things that you are supposed to legally have. So if it was homemade, it could have caused more of this kind of malfunction of the weapon. But again, it did seem as though calmly, he cleared that weapon. He was able to pull the slide.
- [15:12]
Nancy Grace
On the top dearly. Did you say homemade? Look, this is. Whoo. This is smelling. This is not a pro. I don't even know where that came from. A homemade silencer.
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Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Well, there's some suggestions.
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Nancy Grace
A pro can make a homemade silencer, but come on, man. A homemade silencer, that doesn't work. A pretend professional killer stance. Drinking a water bottle and leaving it behind and hopping on a bike without gloves and. And taking off. No, no. I got to figure this thing out, guys. Why was a health CEO worth millions of dollars gunned down in public early early morning, many people saying it's a pro killer?
- [16:05]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
The shooter then flees on foot northbound into an alleyway between 54th street and 55th Street. Once at West 55th street, the shooter continues to walk westbound on the Avenue of Americas, where he gets onto an electric E City bike and rides northbound on the Avenue Americas towards Central Park. At 6:48am we have the shooter riding this bike into Central park at Center Drive. We're still tracking video. The last we see with him on that bike is in Central park at the scene. We recover three live 9 millimeter rounds and three discharged 9 millimeter shell casings. The motive for this murder currently is unknown, but based on the evidence we have so far, it does appear that the victim was specifically targeted. But at this point, we do not know why. This does not appear to be A random act of violence.
- [16:51]
Nancy Grace
Okay, I know that. I know it's not random. Joining me, high profile lawyer Bernarda Villalona, New York criminal defense attorney. This is her beat. She is also a former prosecutor. Bernardo, thank you for being with us. What do you make of it so far? Because not only did the pro assassin leave behind three discharged nine millimeter shell casings, they were engraved with three cryptic words. I mean, it's straight out of a crime novel. And another thing, Bernardo, anybody that knows how to type G O O G L E could find out this guy was speaking where and at what time. Yeah, but I still think there's an inside job because in a sense of they could have known where he was speaking, but they wouldn't have known exactly what time he would have been leaving out of his hotel. Because remember, this shooter had only been waiting about five minutes. So he had to have had some kind of inside information to know the exact time that Brian Thompson would have been leaving his hotel. Look, all of this looks very shady. I don't think it's a professional kill at all because number one, the leaving of the shell casings and the bullets there, then jumping on a bike. I think there's a lot more to this. I don't see that there's going to be an arrest anytime soon, though. Hold on just a moment. On that daily, Bill Daly with me, former FBI investigator and joining us from New York, New York, intimately familiar with the ins and outs, the alleyways where this happened. The guy then goes to Central Park. That was a pretty good move. It's not that that far from where the shooting was by bike, but he goes into Central park, which is blanketed with surveillance videos. I mean, and we can follow his trail. He had to ditch the bike somewhere. I think that we're going to find out where he leaves the bike. And again, no gloves, as you said earlier, of course, you got to have something to compare it to. If he's not in the DNA or the APHI's database, we don't have anything to match it to. But that said, this. Can we just agree this is not a pro?
- [19:01]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
Yeah, I certainly agree it's not a pro. I also think that there's other probably kind of breadcrumbs left behind is that, you know, if this was connected with either the business because of, see that either had been a customer who was certainly totally upset and obsessed with this individual or perhaps a former employee. It could have been a number of things. But I think there you go. Have to go back and start Looking at, were there threats against the company? Apparently, according to the victim's wife, there were. And if there were, who was making those and what was.
- [19:33]
Nancy Grace
What was the step with what you're just saying? Bill Daly, Lauren Conlon. Now, according to one person, there have been threats on the victim's life, and that is his wife. Were those threats ever reported to le law enforcement? Nancy, those threats were never reported to law enforcement. With me also is Scott Eicher, founding member, I can't say this enough, of the FBI's Cellular Analysis Survey team. Can I just say, he didn't just fall off the turnip truck people. Eicher. If I was going to pick him off, I would go somewhere with a silencer and wait out in the middle of nowhere, right? Let his body lay there for three or four hours before anybody figures anything out. So why intentionally find him in New York City?
- [20:26]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
I agree there's a lot of other.
- [20:28]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Places that you could have done this murder, but there's a lot of benefits of doing it in a crowded city also. I mean, if you think about it, you might be able to mix in with the regular people walking to and from work cars and everything like that. He didn't think about all the cameras in the area. He didn't think about all the people that might see different things. And obviously I agree with the other gentleman that says I don't think this guy is a professional. I do think he has some training. I mean, I was on the FBI SWAT team.
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Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
I shot twice a week.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And I can see that type of stance, that he had some training. And for him to do that malfunction, clear the gun, shoot again, clear it, clear it.
- [21:09]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
That that takes training and time.
- [21:11]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
So I think, at least in my mind, he's made a lot of mistakes, but I don't think he's a professional. I totally agree with that. But he has had some training and.
- [21:20]
Nancy Grace
We are learning more from Chief of Detectives Joe Kenney, from, from speaking to.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Other employees that traveled with him to New York. It doesn't seem that he had a security detail. He left the hotel by himself, was walking, didn't seem like he had any issues at all. So I don't think he did not have a security detail.
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Nancy Grace
Lauren Conlon, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there just a firefighters pension fund that sued the victim because he dumped about 31% of his stock, made $15 million just before everything went south? Right. And there's a complaint about that. Yes, that's happening. The wife says there's death threats. He's worth millions of dollars and he doesn't have security detail. Yes, his NET Worth is $43 million, Nancy. And not only that, I found a plethora of lawsuits. He was accused of creating an algorithm to deny patients coverage. So I found quite a few lawsuits there.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And then additionally, there was a data breach.
- [22:27]
Nancy Grace
A few. I believe it was February of 2024, where many, many people were at risk and not happy. Crime stories with nancy grace. Luigi Mangione's outburst in court is not doing him any favors. Get ready, Mangione. You are facing state and federal trials. That was something you should have considered before you allegedly gunned down a guy in broad daylight on the sidewalk in Manhattan, the so called capital of the world. Did you think that was okay? It's not. These are the facts as we know them. Listen to this. It's just like a fifth grade girl writes an action thriller or tries to listen.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Police have released a new chilling detail in the assassination style shooting. Three live rounds and three shell casings recovered from the crime scene. And cops are now saying there are inscriptions on the shell casings. The words deny, defend and depose were engraved on the bullets.
- [23:40]
Nancy Grace
So the words deny, defend and depose were engraved on the bullets by who? The local jeweler. Joining me right now is a ballistics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of hit series Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Joe Scott. Really? Okay, I can't hammer this enough. A pro. What did they write it in? Fancy cursive. Deny, defend, depose. Seriously? That sounds like the ransom note left behind in JonBenet. A small foreign faction wants $118,000. Stop.
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Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
What's really fascinating about this, Nancy, is the fact that they've got three spent casings that are on the ground and then they have the three live rounds. And he's having to try to clear this weapon because he's had a malfunction, which actually does occur with some frequency when you have a suppressed weapon. And the fact that he had engraving, and I keep hearing this term, this engraving that was on these. On these casings. The fact that he had a jam in the weapon, I would think that it would be engraved on all of the rounds. So how can you plan for that? For instance, if these rounds are stacked, which they would be in a magazine and every time he clears it, he's going to eject a live round as opposed to those that were spent when he was firing. If you watch the sequence on the video he fires once and then it looks like he clears, but he may have actually cleared two rounds at that point in time that we're still live because the weapon is jamming on him and he has to cycle through it. So he's taken a lot of time. My, my suspicion is it might be there might be engraving on all of the rounds and that he has taken a lot of time somewhere probably, you know, at home or wherever it is he shows up prepared to a certain degree. Although he didn't wear gloves and he didn't fully mask his face. It, it, there's a lot still to kind of untangle here, but that point is certainly fascinating. I've never encountered this before in my years in forensics to this degree now. You know, Hollywood makes a big deal out of this kind of thing, but it's just not something you commonly run into. My question is what's the skill level of the engraving in addition to attempting to define how this was engraved, what instrumentality was used and then maybe the folks will be able to pick up on some form in his writing if he's doing this freehand. Brian Thompson's wife Paulette tells NBC News that Brian has been receiving death threats. She doesn't go into detail saying it was basically due to a lack of coverage. She adds that she doesn't know exactly, but Brian said there were some people that had been threatening him.
- [26:42]
Nancy Grace
Straight back out to Joe Scott Morgan joining us. Joe Scott, if I said earlier if there was a death out on my husband a, I wouldn't let him travel alone to New York. I would at least go with him at the very least. But that said, they have children to take care of back at home. But no security detail, no police reports, nothing. And she is the only one coming forward with the alleged threats. If they weren't reported to police. Can anyone within the company verify this ever happened?
- [27:14]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Well, if he hasn't, if he hasn't spoken of this to anybody that's around him, but why would he not, you know, say something about this? And let me tell you one more thing. A guy that is in his atmosphere, you know, we see all these celebs, so called celebrities that are out there that have these, you know, security details with it. This is a guy, Nancy, that actually has a level of value and would heighten anybody's senses relative to the danger he could potentially be in. Why wouldn't you put a couple of people on him to check the route at least to be body people that are going to escort him around Maybe he didn't want that. I have no idea. But I do know that he's a prime target. It's just fascinating to me that they chose this particular location, this individual went about it in this manner, because I agree with all of the other panelists. I think this guy has some weapons familiarity, but he is in no way a pro. If he had been a pro, we would not have seen the video last that long. This guy would have dropped.
- [28:17]
Nancy Grace
I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for what you're about to hear. Take a listen.
- [28:22]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
The suspect was reportedly spotted outside a public housing project roughly three miles from the crime scene at 5am carrying what looked like an E bike battery. He's then seen again checking out at Starbucks not far from the Hilton, just minutes before the attack. It's unclear what exactly the suspect purchased, but police believe a water bottle and candy wrapper left at the crime scene may belong to the shooter and are testing the items for latent fingerprints and DNA.
- [28:45]
Nancy Grace
The next thing we're going to hear, Lauren Collins, is that the shooter used a credit card. I mean, he hung out at a Starbucks just before the shooting and, of course, places himself at a public housing project. Yeah, that's right. Blame the people of the housing project, somehow drag that into it. I guarantee that was orchestrated three miles from the scene with what looked to be carrying an E bike battery in case his E bike crapped out on him. Now, at first, this was reported to be a city bike, the kind that are easily accessed all around New York City. Now we're hearing it may not be a city bike. That said, then he's at Starbucks just beside the Hilton, minutes before the attack, staring straight into the surveillance cameras. So there's not just a water bottle. He leaves behind a candy wrapper. Somebody needs a bit of honey. Somebody wants a Starburst before a murder. Yes, and there also have been reports that NYPD believes that he may have actually taken the same subway from the Upper west side to Midtown and to that Starbucks. Wait, then if he was on the Upper west side, then he's spotted at a housing project. There's not a housing project on the Upper west side, okay? That's where all the rich people live. They look down on Central Park. There's not a housing project there. So does he leave the Upper west to go to a housing project to be spotted and. And then go to the Starbucks? Well, that's what police are trying to figure out, and I. Idiot. Well, I'm hoping that he did take the Subway.
- [30:18]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Because Mayor Eric Adams did implement more.
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Nancy Grace
Cameras earlier this year. Okay, I got a lot of surveillance on this guy. But you're right. Subway would help me figure out where he's coming from, where he's going, and how he knows those paths. I'm still flummoxed by the fact that he would leave a water bottle with his DNA on it, a candy wrapper, take a bike, no gloves, has a pretend pro shooter stance and has engraved bullets, for Pete's sake. Why not just throw down your driver's license before you leave? Okay, now we hear about a potential eyewitness that goes on the run.
- [31:02]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Police still have not identified the eyewitness who ran from the scene as Thompson was gunned down. A woman dressed in dark clothing and holding a coffee cup was standing in a doorway just feet away from Thompson when the shooter opened fire. She runs along the building toward the shooter to avoid the gunfire and disappears from frame. Authorities are asking her to come forward, hoping she may be able to provide new details on the shooter. There's a cell phone recovered in the alleyway. We're working through that cell phone. Obviously, we'll be processing it forensically. And as far as words being exchanged. Exchange. We do not have audio of the incident. We only have the regular video. What is the address of your emergency?
- [31:35]
Nancy Grace
It's not really an emergency.
- [31:37]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
I just.
- [31:38]
Nancy Grace
I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of.
- [31:42]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
That he looks like the CEO Shooter, New York. Okay.
- [31:48]
Nancy Grace
Straight out to Kayla Brantley. Joining us, investigative reporter@large, dailymail.com. did they actually say in court that their client, Luigi Mangioni, is the victim because his, quote, beautiful, promising life has been derailed? Yeah, Nancy, as you mentioned, his team did paint him as someone with a promising future. Now, one thing that had been documented.
- [32:14]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Was that Luigi suffered from debilitating back pain.
- [32:17]
Nancy Grace
This was something that he went through. He went through back surgery. And one thing that they say here is that the real enemy here is the medical system.
- [32:27]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And that is one thing that you.
- [32:28]
Nancy Grace
Can definitely expect his legal team argue. Kayla, could I believe you or my lion eyes control room, please show me him running along the beach in Hawaii. I've got videos of him lifting up girls and tickling them. It's a video. They're all giggling hysterically, including him. I've got photos of him lounging by the beach. I'd love to see those photos. Him hiking and what looks to be a jungle rainforest. Oh, he is feeling no pain there. Kayla Brantley, I hope you don't fall for that Hook, line and Seeker. Dr. Judy Ho. Did you know that Luigi Mangioni is apparently the victim in this scenario? Dr. Judy Ho is joining us. Clinical forensic neuropsychologist, author of the New Rules of Attachment and another bestseller, Stop Self Sabotage. You need to write one Dr. Judy Ho about try to tell the truth and then send it, you know, I'll pay for it. And we can send it to Luigi Mangione. He is not the victim here. But you know, you can't count out the defense attorney, Agnafello. He got Sean Combs off on the major accusations in that indictment. So no matter how ridiculous I may think he sounds, he essentially won that case. Yes, it's his defense team that claims Luigi Mangione is the victim. I want to read it. Dr. Judy Hope, beautiful, promising life derailed by those irritating murder charges. Judy, wow.
- [34:05]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Beautiful, promising life.
- [34:06]
Nancy Grace
Nancy, what a narrative.
- [34:08]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And as you said, even though he's not the victim, I think this is why there has been a fan base though, because there's these individuals who actually believe maybe he is a victim, that he's some type of anti hero, that he's misunderstood. And oftentimes we see this in individuals who might act charismatically. They just seem to pull people in. And it's weird because a lot of these people who develop this sort of fan fanhood around Luigi, they're kind of thinking, well, maybe I can be a special person in his life. Maybe he'll pay attention to me. Maybe I can even develop a friendship with this person. This person might learn to trust me. It's really interesting, but some of it actually has to do with a self centered centeredness of people who might actually flock to him, that they're hoping to.
- [34:55]
Nancy Grace
Get something special out of it for themselves. I'm sorry, Dr. Judy Ho, I know you're the clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, but I don't even know what you just said. How can the defense stand up and say this is not about the murder victim. Can we show please, Brian Thompson walking along and he's gunned down in cold blood, leaving behind two sons and a wife that's the victim, according to prosecutors, is Luigi Mangione holding a 3D weapon that he made that it took dozens and dozens of hours to make so he can gun down a guy walking to work in the back. You stated, I don't know what that was. Dr. Judy Ho, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I'm just a trial lawyer didn't understand it, but I think I know some of the people that consider Luigi Mangione to be the victim. And here they are filing in to court. Okay. Oh, what? Luigi fights fascists. Okay? Look at this line. Now. Wait till you see the catwalk parade of sad sack women filing in to. They won't even show their face. To get a glimpse of Luigi Mangione. Yes. Keep it going, keep it going, because I've got hours of people. Yeah, that was totally walking the catwalk right there, clamoring to get in to just bask in the glow of Luigi Mangione. Oh, it keeps going. Yeah, on and on. They had to turn women away. And it's not just women. Listen. So this is who police believe was responsible for the United Healthcare CEO Pew Pew. His name's Luigi. All I can say is, mamma mia, does he need a Mario? I believe it was a great philosopher and poet once said, mama, I'm in love with a criminal. And this type of love isn't rational, it's physical. That was Britney Spears, and I believe we're all feeling that right now. I believe if you're going to do superhero like shit, you better look like one. Okay, this man clearly did that. Did he train at the Marvel Studios with all the other Chris's. Okay, Because Luigi, that's a spicy meatball. I'm so sorry. I believe if we're going to claim to be a Christian nation, that we need to act like one. And part of acting like that is practicing forgiveness. And after a lot of seconds of thinking, I've decided I'm gonna forgive him. I'm ready to forgive him. Right? But not forget. Because I mean, my God, how could you forget an angel like this? I'm not gonna lie. For a while I thought, oh my God, we're never gonna find him, you know, And. And I was wrong. Because somewhere along the way, the ups and downs, the highs and lows, the masks and no masks, this man, he found a way into our hearts. He did. I hardly even know where to start with that. That is from Mr. William Sprech on Tick Tock. I'm in love with a criminal and I forgive him. After a few seconds of consideration, Dr. Judy Ho it. I can't say it gets worse, but there's more. Listen, you can't take my mind and say there's blood on his hands when.
- [38:39]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
You'Re the one with the gun who's.
- [38:45]
Nancy Grace
Taking lives for fun. You can't take my man. That's from Scarlet Park TikTok. So it's gone beyond Calling him a spicy meatball. These people actually consider Luigi Mangione their man. And they are angry with the feds for prosecuting what? Have I gone down the rabbit hole? Am I in some crazy, bizarre Alice in Wonderland? What is happening? Dr. Judy Ho?
- [39:19]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
I know it seems completely unbelievable, Nancy, but this does happen. People start to idolize these potential. I mean, clearly this is a defendant, right? But they're thinking in their minds this person is innocent. Maybe I'm going to be their special person. And they're lusting after them the way that they would lust after a celebrity, especially when they see photos and videos that they can start cutting into their own social media. They're developing a fictionalized relationship with him, a fantasy, and essentially completely, completely erasing all of the facts that have been evident in this case.
- [39:54]
Nancy Grace
And clearly the defendant's attorneys are trying.
- [39:56]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
To paint that picture as well, leaning into it as hard as possible because they're hoping to influence the public opinion even before a jury is selected so that they can hopefully get him the outcome that he wants, which is apparently to escape a death sentence, escape prison maybe. I'm not sure exactly what they think is possible, but that's what's so scary about all the positivity that has developed around his Persona in terms of all of these illustrations, the website they set up about it. It's really concerning.
- [40:25]
Nancy Grace
And you know, Cheryl McCollum is joining me. Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder, author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer, Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer's Daughter on Amazon. Cheryl, okay. Do you remember the night that you and I were out until what, 2 o' clock in the morning, staking out a location where we thought, thought Luigi Mangioni was going to be apprehended? Do you remember that night? Because I sure do. I do. How has this gotten so bass ackwards? Cheryl?
- [41:01]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Nancy, it is mind boggling that anybody is trying to paint this killer as the victim. I mean, the victim's life was not just promising, it was in full swing. He had a wife and children and a career at the highest level. He had friends and extended family. He had everything going for him. Mangione had none of that. But he took everything from those children. And I'm going to tell you something. When you look at the people that are contacting him, I hope and pray that those 6,000 letters that he's gotten, that 115 a day, that there's some good intel in there too, because he is writing people back. So he's communicating and I hope they're listening. Every piece of it.
- [42:00]
Nancy Grace
Somehow this has gotten topsy turvy, upside down. I haven't even gotten into the legal implications of what is happening in court. I'm just so concerned that one of these nut jobs is going to end up on the ultimate jury and acquit Luigi Mangione under the misconception that he is somehow the victim. Again, in court, his lawyers, and I'm quoting, claim that his beautiful, promising life has been derailed by murder charges. It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me. This is a millionaire's son, multi millionaire, who grew up with a silver spoon stuck in his mouth and has been living in a Hawaii high rise on the beach, doing nothing. And yet he's the victim. Can you imagine, Sheryl McCollum, how hard Thompson had to work to get to become the CEO at United Health Care? It wasn't handed to him on a silver platter on top of a Christmas tree like it was Mangioni. He had to work and sacrifice long, long hours to get to where he got to. To be gunned down like a dog on the sidewalk.
- [43:20]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Cheryl, Nancy, you cannot compare these two people. That's why I agree with you. This whole thing is upside down. Not only did the victim work and sacrifice, so did his wife. You know what it takes. You know how long David has gone during the day. It's not an eight hour day. It's a 16, 17 hour day. He was playing at the top of his game. There's no doubt about it. Mangioni was giving nothing to a family. He was giving nothing to society. He was contributing zero. And again, what he took cannot even be measured.
- [44:00]
Nancy Grace
If I hear one more person talk about his back pain, that's you, Kayla Brantley. I think my head's going to blow off because I have videos of him tickling these girls and picking them up just before the shooting. I can't show it because it has the girls faces in it, but he was feeling no pain. But it's all about me, me, me, me, me. Why me? And he's certainly not the first. Let me refresh your recollection. As we say in court with bride killer Jamie Lee Komorowski. Listen to her. I still just don't know why this.
- [44:39]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Had to happen to me. Because bad things happen to good people, honey. That's why.
- [44:46]
Expert/Analyst (possibly Joe Scott Morgan or Lauren Conlon)
It's just. It's just fate. It's just something that happened to you.
- [44:50]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And we are going to deal with it the best we Can.
- [44:54]
Nancy Grace
Okay, Dave Mack, joining me, Crime Stories, investigative reporter. You know who the bride killer is, right? Jamie Lee Komorowski. She's guilty. She got totally stinking drunk and plowed into a beautiful bride, leaving her wedding reception with the groom and killed her. And there she is behind bars going, why is this happening to me?
- [45:21]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
One look and listen to her father, Nancy. What does he say? Well, bad things happen to good people. No, they don't. You just killed somebody because of your own actions. But see, we've got a whole group of people now that never want to admit they did anything wrong. Everything is on them. How can you possibly think Manjoni is sitting here saying his life is derailed? Well, he destroyed another life and another family. Komorowski, sitting in jail. Why is this happening to me? Well, why not? What did you expect would happen? Sick of this, Nancy. It's getting really tiresome.
- [45:58]
Nancy Grace
And there is her victim, Samantha Miller, in her wedding dress just before she's mowed down dead by Jamie Lee Komorowski. And here's. I guess this would have to be the Miss Universe of why me? Jodi Arias. Check her out. She is more concerned about her makeup as she is approaching trial in the brutal stabbing and shooting death of her fiance, Travis Alexander, who was stabbed at least 29 times. Joe, Scott Morgan and I have argued about that. I say it was more than that. Check it out. Jodi Arias, you should have at least done your makeup before you speak to police about murdering your fiance when he broke up and started seeing someone else. That earlier video from 48 Hours, just. Scott Morgan, Professor, Forensics. Do you recall Travis Alexander's death? Hey, stay on that video. Because as they're about to question her about what could have happened to Travis Alexander, she starts singing and there you go. Does a headstand and bemoans the fact she doesn't have on her lip gloss. Talk about me, me, me. Jo Scott, what happened to Travis?
- [47:09]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Yeah, he was brutally murdered, Nancy. She had him stripped down nude, taking a shower, taking dirty pictures, if you will. And while his back is turned, she takes a knife and plunges it into his back, over and over and over again. When he turns around to defend himself, to try to parry her, stabs at him. He gets stabbed in the chest as well. And if it wasn't enough, after he spits up blood onto his sink, he crawls, tries to crawl away from her down the hallway. She straddles him and cuts his throat from ear to ear. And the coup de grace, she shoots him. After he is dead. That's the kind of human that you're looking at right here. She's absolutely disgusting.
- [48:00]
Nancy Grace
And it's all about me, me, me. Just got Morgan, you've seen it all. I'm going to try to show you something you haven'. Seen yet. Speaking of me, me, me. And criminal defendants focusing only on themselves and not their victims. There is the drunk, stinking drunk ADA Assistant District Attorney Devin Flanagan. Listen to her. But the protocol is if I ask you to turn off the body cam, you have to turn it off. And that's your protocol. She's lawyer, so she knows.
- [48:33]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Well, that's lawyer stuff, so that's not true. So we gotta go.
- [48:36]
Nancy Grace
No, it is.
- [48:37]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
That's.
- [48:37]
Nancy Grace
That's law.
- [48:38]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
I'm an ag. I'm an ag. Good for you. I don't give a. Let's go.
- [48:42]
Nancy Grace
Those two were kicked out of, I think it was a bar for being drunk and belligerent. Then you've got. Oh gosh, she's been called the screaming banshee. And do you hear going, I'm an ada. I'm an ada. Every sentence starts with I, I, I. Listen to this woman. Just got. He needs to not touch me.
- [49:01]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
If he wants to call us all.
- [49:04]
Nancy Grace
We'Re gonna go through that route. No, he wants to go through assault. No, we're not doing that.
- [49:10]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Then. No, he.
- [49:12]
Nancy Grace
He claims I assaulted him. No, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. And then of course, maybe this one beats Jodi Arias. No, no, I'm gonna have to go with Luigi Mangioni in his. His beautiful life derailed. I'm sure you recall Shayna Hubers that gave her ex boyfriend the quote, nose job he always wanted with a handgun. Listen, he's very vain. One of our last conversations we had.
- [49:41]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
That was good was that he wants.
- [49:42]
Nancy Grace
My best friend who's a dentist to do his veneers and wants to get a nose job.
- [49:47]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Just that kind of person.
- [49:48]
Nancy Grace
And I shot him right here. I gave him his nose job.
- [49:51]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
They wanted to marry me.
- [49:55]
Nancy Grace
If they know that I killed a boyfriend and helped.
- [50:00]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Not funny. But I'm not your typical murderer. No.
- [50:05]
Nancy Grace
You know Jo. Scott Morgan, professor, forensics and death investigator. Your forte is dead bodies and causes of death and modes of death. Let me go to special guest Joining us now, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist. Joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angie Arnold. What is that? I don't know if you saw this for yourself, but Mangione's defense team is actually arguing his life was derailed by the murder charges. You know, Nancy, my thought is that's all they've got. Who cares if his life was derailed? He is accused of murdering someone. Maybe his life should be derailed. But the way I feel about this is, Nancy, that's all they've got to say. That is the only thing they've got. Let's talk about the facts and the law. Listen.
- [51:00]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Taking orders as she tells the operator, I have a customer here that some other customers were suspicious of, that he looks like the CEO shooter in New York. And they're just really upset and come to me and I'm like, I can't approach him. The manager continues working and can be heard talking about bagels. At one point shouting, one of them is no butter. The 911 operator, Emily States, testifies about the call and is heard to ask for a description. With the manager replying, the only thing you can see is the eyebrows.
- [51:30]
Nancy Grace
Joining us is Sky Lazaro. She's a veteran criminal defense attorney. She's practicing in both. She's practicing in both state and federal court. She is with Ray Quinny and Nebeker. Sky, thank you for being with us. If the defense is arguing that Luigi Mangioni was illegally arrested, the 911 call occurred before the arrest. So what could be the possible grounds for suppressing that call by the McDonald's manager? I think they're going to have a really hard time keeping the 911 call out. I can understand it from a defense perspective. You have to try. But when it comes to 911 calls, as long as you can lay the foundation for it, it's probably coming in. I can tell you one thing. I know, Sky Lazarro, that they hate about this 911 call. We had the same thing happen in the Idaho slayings of four beautiful Idaho University students where Dylan Mortenson described Brian Kohberger's freaky bushy eyebrows. Listen, I just remember seeing this figure that was like not fat, obviously, but.
- [52:44]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
More of like the skinnier tongue build.
- [52:46]
Nancy Grace
And some mask on. I don't know what the mask exactly was, but when I thought about it.
- [52:50]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
It was just like covering here and here. I don't know if it's covering his mouth, his nose, or below his mouth and nose. I just remember knowing that he was white, but I didn't know how he was white. I just knew he was.
- [53:01]
Nancy Grace
And this knowing there's like, I knew.
- [53:03]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
He looked at me because of a bushy eyebrow.
- [53:04]
Nancy Grace
That's all I remember. Murder. Crime stories with nancy grace. Alleged killer, the so called sexy assassin. That's like a dirt sandwich whenever I say that. Is facing a state and a federal trial in the shooting death of healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, I might add, again, who was a husband and a father. You don't hear much from his family. They're dealing with their grief privately. But I heard plenty from Angioni the other day in court. His outburst to the judge just underscores what a spoiled brat he is. I got plenty of rulings against me in court, but I did not have an outburst at the judge that would have only hurt my case and me going forward with other cases representing other victims. But Mangioni thinks it's okay to scream at a judge sitting on the bench. It's not. That said, I don't know who spoon fed him on a silver spoon his whole life, but it doesn't work like that in the justice system. Angioni, you're not back talking mommy and daddy. You are speaking to an elected judge on the bench that's going to oversee your trial. And yelling at him or her is not going to help you brat. This is what we know about the morning, the early morning when Brian Thompson was shot dead, a guy Mangione had never even met. Segment 4. Mangione's outburst in court only emphasizes that he is a spoiled brat. Deal with it, Mangione. This is what happens when you allegedly gun down an unarmed man in broad daylight on the sidewalk. You get caught and you go to trial. But what will that jury trial reveal? Joining me is Tom Smith, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star of the Gold Shields podcast. And he covered the very same streets where Brian Thompson was gunned down in cold blood. You know, I have had a killer identified. He was a chef, by the way, identified by a particular limp that he had. I've had a bank robber identified because he walked slew footed, in other words, like a duck. There are all sorts of ways to identify someone. It can be by voice that it could be any number of things. In this case, the McDonald's manager said Bushy eyebrows, and there's no doubt that's Luigi Mangione. They hate it. They hate that identification, Tom.
- [56:18]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Yeah, they do. Because, you know, it shows how important Nancy, and we did this when we first started talking about this case, how important the videos and all the photos were to get out to the public, even if his face was covered, even if he was in a cab or whatever it was, because those eyebrows jumped off the page to everyone who looked at it. That was the Number one thing that everyone looked at as a. A looking point and identification point when it came to him. And it just showed that the quicker they got those photos out, the better it was in the end of this.
- [56:54]
Nancy Grace
You know, I'm very curious about this. The fact that he is identified at McDonald's by his eyebrows, among other things. Let's see the pictures of the McDonald's. There you go. There he at McDonald's. But Sky Lazari, don't you think that the defense should be more concerned about the fact that he can be identified? At the time of the killing? He showed his face repeatedly. I agree with you. He probably should have been a little bit more careful at that time.
- [57:25]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And that should be the stuff they're seeking to exclude. And maybe they will.
- [57:29]
Nancy Grace
I think as it goes to the 911 call, the defense's probably only argument is that these are witnesses who identified him, not from the shooting. They weren't there that night. So they can't say I saw him do the shooting. They just want to exclude it because.
- [57:45]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
He'S at the McDonald's.
- [57:46]
Nancy Grace
The problem is they get to the McDonald's and it turns out to be him. Speaking of getting to the McDonald's, the defense is arguing that while he wasn't really under arrest, he was kind of under arrest because so many police started showing up and massing at the McDonald's. They were concerned, if this is Luigi Mangione, the health care assassin, he's probably armed. And as a matter of fact, he was. He was armed. There was a weapon in his backpack sitting right there with him. So they were. Right. Now what the defense is arguing is that having multiple police, multiple police officers show up is tantamount equal to arresting him. Why do we care? Because police engage in a conversation with him to identify him. And he spilled a lot of information in that conversation. The state says it was before his arrest. Why does it matter? Because a statement taken while you are in custody without Miranda will be suppressed. So they want the judge to believe that because several police officers showed up at McDonald's, the Mangione was effectively under arrest and any statements he made pre Miranda should be suppressed. That's not going to happen when I walk into, let's just pretend a Chipotle and all the Atlanta PD are in there getting a salad. I don't feel like I'm under arrest. Think about it. Listen.
- [59:19]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Manjoni stares at monitors showing his arrest at McDonald's. Manjoni sits the breakfast at 9:03. Eleven minutes later, the 911 call is made. 9:28, Two police officers show up and begin talking to Mangione. The restaurant slowly begins to fill with police until 9:42, when at least eight officers are visible on the recording. The defense claims packing the place with police amounts to unlawful detention. Prior to Mangione's arrest. Agnifolo argues police surrounding MANGIONE and the McDonald's is tantamount to illegally detaining the alleged killer. Agniphilo also takes exception with the way officers treated Mangioni's backpack during the arrest, claiming it was warrantlessly searched on the scene.
- [60:00]
Nancy Grace
In other words, they looked in his backpack. Cheryl McCollum joining me. She is not only a crime scene investigator and founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, but she is also the star of a hit podcast, which I actually put on a loop sometimes. Cheryl McCollum, zone seven. Cheryl McCollum, has it ever dawned on you when you go into McDonald's for a cup of coffee that you're arresting somebody, that your mere presence equals an arrest? Because that's what they're arguing and what they're trying to do, Cheryl, is get out from under what Mangioni said to police pre Miranda and them finding evidence in his backpack.
- [60:43]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
I think the body cam is going to be so critical here because it's going to show all of his actions. It's going to, you know, show the world that he stood up and thought he was under arrest. Only a guilty person would think that, Nancy. What the defense is doing is they're basically, look, you use manure to make something grow, right? So they are planting and cultivating and trying to grow this story that he's the victim, that he didn't do anything, that he was under arrest. So now we can't use anything and it's just bs.
- [61:16]
Nancy Grace
While this legal warfare is taking place in a courtroom, Mangione's attorneys continue to insist that he's the victim. He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here. And they are literally treating him like he is like some sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle. He was on display for everyone to see in the biggest staged perp walk I've ever seen in my career. There was no reason for the NYPD.
- [61:51]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And everybody to have these big assault.
- [61:53]
Nancy Grace
Rifles that, frankly, I had no idea was in their arsenal. And to have all of these, the press there, the media there, it was like perfectly court choreographed. And what was the New York City mayor doing at this press conference, he.
- [62:06]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Is a walking, talking contradiction. He supposedly is again this wealthy CEO, yet he comes for money.
- [62:14]
Nancy Grace
This is a guy living in a high rise in Honolulu waking up to the beach every morning. Did you wake up to a beach view this morning? Because I sure did not. The Luigi Mangione defense is fighting tooth and nail to keep out what happened in that McDonald's. And as Cheryl McCollum has pointed out, that body cam is going to be so significant because it doesn't matter what the state says. It doesn't matter what the defense says or how much Luigi Mangioni claims he's the victim. What matters is what really happened inside that McDonald's. They're not going to get the 911 call suppressed. That's not happening. But what happened in the McDonald's. Is the state going to lose valuable evidence on a legal technicality? Why is it they want that backpack suppressed? Straight out to investigator at large for DailyMail.com, kayla Brantley. What was in the backpack, Nancy? There was a 3D printed gun. It's a handgun. Which is believed to could possibly be the murder weapon. There was a notebook with handwritten notes in it. Then he also had a knife on him, which was discovered about 20 minutes later.
- [63:25]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
So he was armed.
- [63:27]
Nancy Grace
And at that point he was considered very dangerous. Okay, hold on. What did you say was written in Mangione's spiral notebook that was in his backpack that he wanted? And he used the word whack. The health care CEO, Whack meaning kill, hurt, destroy. No wonder they want it suppressed. To Dave Mack, Crime stories investigative reporter. Tell me about the three sometimes called a ghost gun.
- [63:55]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Well, Nancy, you know, we've been. We have not been given the very specifics of what type of gun. We know it's a pistol, but we don't know the exact name of it. 3D printed firearms take a massive amount of time and filament far more than any other. The Liberator is the most common and it's the easiest one to print and takes the shortest amount of time. The Liberator takes 30 hours of constant printing with non stop printing. Nancy. 30 hours to print. The easiest of all the pistols.
- [64:27]
Nancy Grace
Tom Smith. Here's the thing with a ghost gun. It's made on a 3D printer, Tom. It's unserialized. That's why they're so popular amongst criminals. You think grandpa has his long gun, his shotgun under the bed? You think it's a 3D printed gun? No, it's got a serial number. Why Is it so serious that a ghost gun is unserialized?
- [64:57]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Well, because you can't trace it. No matter what you do with that weapon, it cannot be traced back to you. And that is why so many criminals and Luigi Maggione, of course, went to the lengths that he did to make that gun, because that is the predetermined and premeditation of it. Already. He's already thinking ahead of that gun not being traced to him. And that is part of this as well.
- [65:22]
Nancy Grace
Tom Smith, you're exactly correct. To Joseph Scott Morgan. Let me introduce him formally. He is a professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University with an incredible criminal procedure program. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is a death investigator that has handled thousands of death scenes and he's the star of hit podcast Body Bags with Jo Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what is a suppressor or commonly known as a silencer?
- [65:55]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Yeah, I stay away from the term silencer because no weapon is silenced. It is suppressed. That means that the crack of the sound, you're talking about a perhaps supersonic round, it's traveling, you know, past the speed of sound. So what you want to do is reduce that sound that's put forth from the muzzle. If you take a close look, I'm glad that you have that image. You take a close look at that weapon there. The end of that muzzle is actually threaded. What that means is, is that it's adaptable. It's adaptable to contain a suppressor. The suppressor is displayed here. It's that long, black cylindrical object there. It can be screwed end. Well, you want to knock down the sound. So it's not going to draw attention to you when you fire this thing because let's just say that it is a non suppressed weapon. This thing's going to echo through the canyons down there in Manhattan, through all of those buildings. You'll still hear a sound, but it'll be a slight crack. It's not like it's portrayed in movies. Okay, but it will reduce the sound. It doesn't completely eliminate it. And the purpose of this is so that you're not going to draw attention to anyone. It does reduce, say, some of the capabilities of the weapon as far as the effectiveness of it at a greater range. But this is, this is not a close range. As a matter of fact, if we were to look at the body here, it would be classified as indeterminate because you're not going to have any kind of soot deposition gun, unpairned gunpowder, it will have fallen away by that time. But this is not too distant of a shot. You'll still have that same muzzle velocity striking into Brian Thompson's body. It's effectively lethal.
- [67:40]
Nancy Grace
Joining me now, the star of Zone 7 podcast, Cheryl McCollum is with us. Cheryl, who has unserialized guns and silencers, criminals.
- [67:56]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
And Nancy, there's another thing. Even though this is a 3D printed weapon, it's still going to leave markings on casons and they're going to be able to be, you know, determined that this weapon fired the bullets that murdered Brian Thompson. So forensically it's not going to get you out of trouble. They may not can trace it to a manufacturer, to a buyer, but they can absolutely determine that that bullet was fired by that weapon.
- [68:27]
Nancy Grace
Cheryl McCollum, you're so right. And Tom Smith, this is like a fish in water for you. Every day you were getting off the streets of Manhattan, guns to match with bullets, bullets that were literally dug out of victims bodies. And Cheryl said it right. A bullet hurls down the barrel of a gun. That gun might look like all the other guns in the gun store showcase, but it's not. Because inside the barrel, the metal has cooled in a certain way and it leaves ridges and imperfections on the inside of the barrel. And as that bullet shoots down the barrel, it is forever marked by those imperfections. So when you take the murder weapon to the crime lab and you shoot a bullet through the murder weapon and you take the known bullet dug out of the victim and you put it under a microscope next to the one you just shot, it's like a fingerprint. No other gun, be it a 3D printed gun, a grandma's Bessie's out from under her mattress, you can track and identify like a fingerprint that bullet came from that gun. Isn't that true?
- [69:55]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
100 and that's the best way to say it. It's, it's the gun's fingerprint and the ballistic check of that in the twist marks and all of that is what you match up. And it is a fingerprint that is unmatchable, you know, to anyone else. It is strictly to that weapon that you will match up the weapon taken, the round taken out of the victim and match it up. And that is damaging when it comes to court.
- [70:21]
Nancy Grace
Oh yeah, and Tom Smith, that is why they are fighting to the death in court to keep that jury from ever knowing of a ballistics match, that his 3D printed gun is the murder weapon. Listen to Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district.
- [70:40]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Attorney for Nearly an hour, we alleged the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton hotel waiting for Mr. Thompson to appear. From 6:38am to 6:44am the defendant stood across from the entrance of the hotel on West 54th Street. When he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind.
- [71:03]
Nancy Grace
Kayla Brantley, Daily Mail the defense for Luigi Mangiani is also trying to suppress the statements he allegedly made to his guards. He had special guards behind bars, so nothing would happen to him like it did to Epstein. So let's first talk about Thomas Rivers, the former British infantryman who was minding Mangione. What did Mangioni allegedly say to Rivers? Nancy Luigi was held for 10 days.
- [71:34]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
In Pennsylvania and he had spoken about being very disappointed. Disappointed that he was being compared to the Unabomber. He also said that mainstream media was more focused on crime and that when.
- [71:47]
Nancy Grace
You looked at social media, they were.
- [71:49]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Really more focused about the health care.
- [71:51]
Nancy Grace
Industry, which, according to this officer, is what Luigi said this was really about. Wow. Sounds like a confession to me. Sky Lazaro, Oopsie. Nancy I agree and disagree. Here's the problem. They put these guys in a situation like that in solitary where they can't talk to anybody else. And the other thing is that we know these officers didn't document any of this. They're supposed to be taking notes seven times an hour about what he's doing and his well being. And they don't write down anything like he just made an omission. Skylaz all right, did you say it's a problem he was being held in solitary? You know who else is in solitary? Brian Thompson. Except his is a casket. So you're telling me again, I can't believe you're buying into this guy Lazaro, that he's the one that's being tormented. You know what else he told Rivers? That Rivers should really read? Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley, which is all about psychedelic drug trips and mystical interpretations. Needless to say, Rivers did not read the book. But there is another guard that he talked to. This is the one I'm really interested in.
- [73:08]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Listen, Officer Matt Henry wasn't chatty with the alleged killer. That doesn't stop Manjoni from telling Henry he was caught with a 3D printed firearm, the weapon used to murder CEO Brian Thompson. Attorney Mark Agnifolo challenges Henry, saying, so he just blurted out to you that he had a 3D printed pistol. Henry dryly replies yes.
- [73:28]
Nancy Grace
To Dr. Angela Arnold joining us. She's a renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction@AngelaArnold.com Former Professor, Psychiatry. It goes on and on. Former medical director at the psychiatric OBGYN clinic at Grady, which never has a lack of business. I found a lot of witnesses and victims at Grady Hospital. Dr. Angela Arnold. Why is this so hard? I bet a jury's not going to have a hard time believing this. That Luigi Mangione, who has had a lifetime of entitlement, would blab to his guards, why? They're his new friends. They would never betray him. Right?
- [74:10]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Yeah.
- [74:10]
Nancy Grace
Oh, sure. And you know, Nancy, he probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder in which he thinks about himself an awful lot. So he really doesn't.
- [74:22]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
He may not see that he's done.
- [74:23]
Nancy Grace
Anything wrong, and he probably hasn't suffered.
- [74:27]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Any consequences for any of his actions in the past.
- [74:31]
Nancy Grace
And so that would make him more likely to almost be bragging about what he's done and to let other people know what he's done. This is typical for his behavior, in all likelihood, throughout his life, existence. Tom Smith. Joining me, former NYPD detective, 30 years now, star co host of Gold Shields podcast. Tom, what is wrong with rich people? Do they think they can just get away with everything? Anything and everything they can confess, they can stay? Yeah, they caught me with the 3D printed gun, which is the murder weapon. I. What is wrong with them? Have you noticed the same sense of entitlement sometimes does them in because they think they can buy off everybody, that everybody wants to be their friend, but these two guards do not want to be his friend.
- [75:28]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Yeah, they. They've lived their whole life like this, Nancy. You know, they've gotten what they wanted, they need to pay for it. Or the power that they have has influenced someone's decision into what they're getting or what they're doing. And, and they just think that holds true for every aspect of their life, including killing someone. I mean, that's how deranged they are when it comes to the entitlement that they believe they are owed when it comes to murder or, you know, killing a bride. We did that show, you know, it's just constant, and it just keeps coming up, and it's absolutely disgusting.
- [76:04]
Nancy Grace
Tom, I want you to look at a picture. If I can get the control room to put it up for me, dig through those files. I want to see the picture of allegedly Mangiani, who is presumed innocent, holding up the 3D with the silencer on it, pointing directly at Brian Thompson's back. According to police, he waited an hour for just the right moment. There's his backpack, which was recovered at the McDonald's. There's his outfit, which he had with him. There's the 3D weapon. And let's look at Brian Thompson walking along early morning, going to a work conference. He shot in the back right there. And I'm not going to play that when he actually gets shot because someday, somehow his boys might look this up online. And I don't want this to be stuck in their memory. Kayla Brantley, were any of Mangioni's family members in court and were any of the victims family members in court this week? Not that we know of, Nancy, but a lot of Luigi's supporters. And one thing have you heard of pretty privilege? Because it absolutely feels like Luigi is.
- [77:30]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Benefiting from that by having hordes of fans because he is a handsome man.
- [77:35]
Nancy Grace
That he is benefiting from pretty privilege. And I'm sure his defense team is.
- [77:40]
Panelist/Reporter (possibly Bill Daley or Cheryl McCollum)
Happy that they have a relatively attractive.
- [77:43]
Nancy Grace
Man as a client. Keala I don't find him attractive. Every time I look at him, I see a tail swishing in the back and two horns right here. That's what I see. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.