STRANGER DNA UNDER MAGGIE'S NAILS?

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: STRANGER DNA UNDER MAGGIE'S NAILS?

Release Date: July 1, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Nancy Grace and her panel dissect the latest developments in the upcoming retrial of Alex Murdaugh, focusing on the bombshell claim that "stranger" male DNA was discovered under Maggie Murdaugh’s fingernails. The panel probes whether this evidence is a legitimate threat to the prosecution’s case or an attempt by the defense to cast doubt. They break down the legal, forensic, and psychological implications, examine the established timeline, and assess the actual weight of the “stranger DNA” argument.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Stranger DNA” Claim (02:35–10:28)

• Main Bombshell: Defense is claiming that DNA under Maggie Murdaugh’s fingernails does not belong to Alex or any Murdaugh family member.
  • Nancy Grace: “Stranger DNA under Maggie’s nails. Remember, reality check. Maggie Murdoch was lured to Moselle … She goes out there and ends up dead. Tonight, stranger DNA under her nails.” (03:34)
• Defense’s Position (Dave Mack):
  • Jim Griffin (Murdaugh’s attorney) claims this DNA was not entered into CODIS and was not properly followed up on. (04:30)
• Skepticism (Gigi McKelvey):
  • “That’s a pretty bold claim. And you would think if they were aware of this at the first trial, they would have insisted that be at least put into CODIS or tested. So I guess time will tell whether or not that is a true claim.” (05:22)
• Legal Reality (Mark Pepper):
  • “The defense has the right to have the state’s evidence tested … whatever was under Maggie’s nails was there at the time the autopsy was conducted. … They 100% had the right to test it. I suspect they did, Nancy. Maybe they didn't like the results or maybe it was simply a trial strategy.” (06:13–06:38)

Insight:

The panel agrees that, even if true, the goal of defense here is to create reasonable doubt by presenting the possibility of another perpetrator.

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2. Would Stranger DNA Change Everything? (07:12–10:35)

• Impact on Defense (Mark Pepper):
  • If it’s scientifically proven that someone else’s DNA was there, “it changes the entire case.” (07:46)
  • The possibility that Maggie fought back and scratched her killer is a key reasonable doubt tactic.
• Caution (Nancy Grace):
  • Counters by explaining contamination is possible, DNA doesn’t automatically mean a killer—it could be from other sources (e.g. the nail salon).
  • “She could have gotten anything. That could be dog DNA under her nails, for all I know.” (08:33)

Notable Quote:

“You don’t have to necessarily put up a defense that it wasn’t Alec. You at least have to allege that it’s possible it could have been someone else ... That is exactly what they’ll use this DNA for.”
— Mark Pepper (10:35)

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3. Pedicure, Contamination, & Common Sense (13:55–16:26)

• Blanca Tubiate Simpson (Murdaugh Housekeeper):
  • Maggie had her nails done regularly, including earlier that day.
  • “She could have gotten, you know, stranger DNA from the tools that are used [at the nail salon] ... that does not bother me for them to try to create, you know, a big scene over the stranger DNA under her nails.” (14:40–14:58)
  • Confirms Maggie did get her nails done that day. (15:51)

Insight:

Potential non-homicide sources exist for unknown DNA under the nails, undermining the defense’s implication of violent transfer.

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4. Forensic Expert Weighs In (16:31–19:41)

• Joseph Scott Morgan (Forensics Professor):
  • Explains the process: Nails are scraped and clipped at autopsy, with each finger stored separately.
  • Maggie may have picked up DNA from numerous mundane sources.
  • Suggests that SLED (investigators) would have followed up on anything highly indicative if they suspected connectivity.
  • Questions whether “phenotyping” was attempted, which could reveal more specifics about the unknown DNA donor.

Notable Quote:

“Where do you put your hands throughout the day? Well, you can’t keep track of it ... Every contact leaves a trace ... at a molecular level.”
— Joseph Scott Morgan (16:57)

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5. DNA in the First Trial: What's New? (19:41–23:34)

• Already Addressed? (Dave Mack & Nancy Grace):
  • The presence of unknown male DNA under Maggie’s nails was discussed at the original trial and did not move the jury.
  • Defense insists now they have retested and will push this point more aggressively.
• Nancy Grace:
  • “They had access to this DNA first time around. So what is different today other than Hartputland putting it out in the media? Just because he says it so doesn’t make it so, Pepper.” (22:35)

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6. Prosecutorial Response to Defense’s Claims (24:14–27:45)

• Nancy Grace:
  • Calls out defense for factual errors and misrepresentations (e.g., claim that DNA and fingerprints weren’t collected, which is contradicted by case evidence).
• Dr. Bethany Marshall (Psychoanalyst):
  • Suggests the jury will see through misleading claims—“all this lying is not going to play well with the jury.”
  • Points out that DNA under nails is most suspicious in stabbing/strangulation, not in a shooting.

Memorable Moment:

“Do they not think that the jury is going to be offended by all these lies? Jurors are people too, Nancy … If their attorneys are acting like they’re third graders, they’re not going to like that.”
— Dr. Bethany Marshall (26:46)

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7. The Kennel Video: The Timeline Anchor (27:45–32:24)

• Key Evidence:
  • “Kennel Video” puts Alex at the scene minutes before murders; defense disputes the timeline’s precision.
  • Video is at 8:44pm; both Maggie’s and Paul’s phones go silent by 8:49pm—crime must have occurred in that 5-minute window.
• Gigi McKelvey: “It puts him right there in the kennels when their phones essentially go silent minutes later… We have that timeline there.” (28:36 & 31:16)
• Dave Mack: Clarifies defense is trying to argue timeline uncertainty but forensic and digital evidence is robust. (32:24)

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8. Timeline Breakdown & Digital Forensics (33:17–46:31)

• Nancy Grace:
  • Enumerates digital clues: steps, phone usage, vehicle telemetry, surveillance video.
  • Breaks down precise movement:
    • Kennel video: 8:44pm
    • Phones silent: 8:49pm
    • Murdoch leaves: ~9:07pm
    • 911 call: 10:06pm
• Joseph Scott Morgan:
  • Explains “axillary temp” (armpit temperature) method is less accurate than digital evidence for time of death.
• Panel Consensus:
  • Circumstantial and digital data narrows the time window significantly, challenging the defense’s narrative of uncertainty.

Notable Quotes:

“The reality is … within minutes, minutes after that video occurred … it was four minutes after that recording that both his and Maggie’s phones never sent texts again.”
— Gigi McKelvey (31:16)

“There’s a mountain of circumstantial evidence here, digital evidence that corroborates the estimation of this time of death.”
— Dave Mack (43:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mark Pepper:

  “If you put up evidence that proves scientifically that there was another human being there or in close proximity to Maggie at the time of these shootings, that is a bombshell... It changes the entire landscape of the case.” (07:46)

• Blanca Tubiate Simpson:

  “She could have gotten stranger DNA from the tools that are used at the nail salon... that part of it does not bother me.” (14:40)

• Joseph Scott Morgan:

  “Every contact leaves a trace ... at a molecular level ... You can’t keep track of where your hands have been throughout the day.” (16:57)

• Dr. Bethany Marshall:

  “All this lying is not going to play well with the jury ... They have thoughts, they have feelings. And they do respond to how the attorneys talk to them and speak to them.” (26:46)

• Gigi McKelvey on Kennel Video:

  “It puts him right there in the kennels when their phones essentially go silent minutes later ... I think it’s a big video.” (28:36)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Introducing the “Stranger DNA” Bombshell: (02:35–03:34)
• Legal and Forensic Discussion: (04:30–10:35)
• Maggie’s Recent Manicure: (13:55–16:26)
• Forensics of Nail Scraping/Clipping: (16:31–19:41)
• First Trial vs. Retrial DNA Strategy: (19:41–23:34)
• Debunking Defense’s Crime Scene Critiques: (24:14–27:45)
• Kennel Video Analysis: (27:45–32:24)
• Timeline Forensics: (33:17–46:31)

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Summary: Is the “Stranger DNA” a Game-Changer?

• The defense plans to elevate this DNA claim in the retrial, but the panel notes:
  • The origin of the DNA could be mundane (e.g. nail salon).
  • This point was already addressed at the first trial; it did not sway the jury.
  • Digital/circumstantial evidence is still overwhelming against Alex Murdaugh.
• Jurors, according to psychological experts, are unlikely to be bamboozled by DNA that can be otherwise explained, especially in a gun homicide.
• The “kennel video” and digital timeline remain the prosecution’s anchors.

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Concluding Note

Nancy Grace closes by encouraging anyone with information to come forward, while honoring the memory of fallen law enforcement. The episode signals both prosecution and defense are doubling down, but despite headline-grabbing defense maneuvers, the science and technology timeline remain critical in this high-profile retrial.

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Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an I Heart podcast guaranteed

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[Nancy Grace]

Check Lyft Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight. Alex Murdock inches closer and closer to a double murder retrial. With the death penalty now possibly on the table tonight, Is there stranger DNA under Maggie's nails? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Dave Mack]

This is how ignored if 2147 Moselle Road.

[Gigi McKelvey]

I need to believe this.

[Nancy Grace]

Answers immediately.

[Dave Mack]

My wife and Dar disgust bad. I mean, sir, I can't think of

[Nancy Grace]

anybody who would

[Mark Pepper]

want to go to that extreme.

[Nancy Grace]

Stranger DNA under Maggie's nails. Remember, reality check. Maggie Murdoch was lured to Moselle, Alex Murdoch's hunting lodge. She didn't want to go. She stated that. She even put it in a text to a friend. She did not want to go. Let's see shots of Moselle since that's what we're talking about. She goes out there and ends up dead tonight, stranger DNA under her nails. She was found face down in the dirt, shot point blank range in the back, her blood seeping down into the floor, the dirt of that hunting lodge. Stranger DNA under her nails. Straight out to Dave Mack, crime Stories investigative reporter.

[Dave Mack]

What this is the claim from the defense, Nancy, the first salvo being thrown out there claiming that underneath Maggie Murdoch's fingernails there was DNA, male DNA that was not the DNA of Alex or any other family member, according to Jim Griffin. That's Murdoch's lead attorney, Nancy, and he claims Griffin claims that they never put that DNA into codis. There was never a follow up on this DNA. That is a bombshell claim from the defense.

[Nancy Grace]

Straight out to Gigi McKelvey joining us out of South Carolina, star of Pretty Lies and Alibis, investigative journalist Gigi stranger DNA under Maggie Murdoch's nails. Now, is this just BS by Hartput Lian or is this real?

[Gigi McKelvey]

I mean, that's a pretty bold claim. And you would think if they were aware of this at the first trial, they would have insisted that be at least put into CODIS or tested. So I guess time will tell whether or not that is a true claim. But you can bet if it is, it's going to be a big part of this second trial.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Mark Pepper, veteran criminal defense attorney out of this jurisdiction in South Carolina, founder of the Pepper Law Firm. Put him up, please. Pepper. Whether there is stranger DNA under her nails or not, let me just jump to the next legal reality which the defense will have to grapple with. Isn't it true? And this is a yes? No. I know you hate that. Isn't it true the defense has the right to have the state's evidence tested? Isn't that true?

[Mark Pepper]

100%, yes.

[Nancy Grace]

And isn't it true that whatever was other under Maggie's nails was there at the time the autopsy was conducted? And I'm going to go to Joe Scott and Morgan Morgan in just a moment about how those nails were preserved. And they had the right to test the DNA then. And I wonder why they didn't, if it even exists. Maybe because it would reveal Alex Murdock's DNA.

[Mark Pepper]

They 100% had the right to test it. I suspect they did, Nancy. Maybe they didn't like the results or maybe it was simply a trial strategy that they did not want to kind of get off of this path of he just wasn't there. He just didn't do it. I think your next guest will be able to explain a bit better than I will the logistics of the scientific evidence. But as a defense lawyer, I'm putting it in, period. It's coming into evidence. I'm making sure it comes in. Because all you're trying to do here is just create doubt. Could someone else have done this?

[Nancy Grace]

Muddy the water? Right. That's right. The defense's job is correct. Okay. At least you're being honest with me, Mark. And that's why you win so many cases. Mark, let's review what you just said and break it down tonight. Bombshell, Is there stranger DNA under Maggie Murdoch's nails? Mark, spin that out to its logical conclusion. What if I'm going out on a limb saying Hartpool is telling the truth? What if it's true? What does that mean for Murdoch's defense? A lot.

[Mark Pepper]

It changes the entire case, in my opinion. If you put up evidence that proves scientifically that there was another human being there or in close proximity to Maggie at the time of these shootings, that is a bombshell, to use your words, Nancy. That has to get put in front of the jury. It changes the entire landscape of the case, in my opinion. In South Carolina, we want to see hard evidence. And when all the signs are pointing to Alec, in the very least, you've got to give them another option. Is it possible that someone else was at this crime scene? Is it possible that Maggie defended herself, that she scratched someone, and that's how somebody's DNA not named Alec Murdoch got under her nails? This is bombshell, New Pepper.

[Nancy Grace]

Maggie Murdaugh and Paul, her son, were gunned down in cold Blood execution style. So this is not exactly pristine conditions. She could have gotten anything. That could be dog DNA under her nails for all I know.

[Mark Pepper]

And it could be anybody's, but it's not Alec Murdoch's. According to Griffin and Harpootlean. And that is the key, Nancy, is that when you're trying to create reasonable doubt, you've got to give the jury some other explanation. And maybe we have it now. Maybe Alex defense team has what they need. DNA from another human. Not ne Malik. That is fresh would have been collected. You would have had chain of custody. This evidence is going to come in. Griffin and Harpootley are dead set on introducing this evidence. As they should.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, let's just boil it down very quickly. Mark Pepper. This is not an in court argument where if you go on and on and on enough to the judge, you think he she may side with you just to make you stop. Here's the deal. If there is stranger DNA under her nail, human DNA under her nails, their claim is going to be sod. Some other dude did it, she fought with him and got his or her his DNA under her nails. That's what they will have. And they will actually have DNA to support it. Just like in the quadruple sleigh in Idaho. Remember the stranger DNA that was on a glove in the parking lot was on a banister in the party house. Kohberger was going to use that. Did we have a match to who it was? No, but as you said, Mark Pepper, the possibility of another perpetrator based on scientific DNA under her nails. Right. They may have a leg to stand on. Do I believe it?

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

No.

[Nancy Grace]

But this could be one leg and a stool for reasonable doubt to sit upon.

[Mark Pepper]

That is exactly right, Nancy. Create the reasonable doubt. You don't have to necessarily put up a defense that it wasn't Alec. You at least have to allege that it's possible it could have been someone else. And that's exactly what they'll use this DNA for. You hit the nail on the head, Nancy. It's not only to defend Alec, but it's to put in the mind of these reasonable jurors that is it possible. Have you heard anything over this six week trial, eight week trial, 10 week trial that gives you hesitation that it was Alec. Well, let's go back and look at what the science shows. We have DNA evidence of someone else's DNA under Maggie's nails. That creates reasonable doubt. That is exactly what Jim and Dick will show this year,

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, a very special guest. It is Blanca Tubiate Simpson, Murlog's housekeeper for many, many years, knows Maggie and all of the children like the back of her hand. And she is the author of a brand new book, within the house of Murdaugh. Amid a unique friendship, Blanca and Maggie. It's an incredible book by the way. You of all people. Hey, let's see that dog kennel again. Can help me out here? Didn't Maggie have her nails done regularly? What could be under her nails? What do you know of her blanc

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

to the nail salon to get her nails done. So for many women, if we go to the beauty salon, not all the tools that are used are, you know, cleaned perfect. She could have gotten, you know, stranger DNA from the tools that are used. And so that doesn't, that does, that part of it does not bother me for them to try to create, you know, a big scene over the stranger DNA under her nails, you know, because we all get our nails done and, you know, it could have been a dirty tool, you know.

[Nancy Grace]

Blanca, how often would Maggie have her nails done?

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

Usually special occasions or if she wasn't doing any, If she wasn't doing any kind of dirty work, like I would say, you know, but she was touching up a lot of areas that, you know, the painting and all that. And I think she was just looking forward to getting her nails done that day. She usually would go maybe once a month.

[Nancy Grace]

Do you know that she went that day, Blanca?

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

She did go that day. She did go that day.

[Nancy Grace]

That is very significant. And the nail salon where she went that day, where was it?

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

All she told me was she was gonna get her nails done when we talked in pedicure. She used to get her hair done out there in Hilton Head. Mutual friend recommended a young lady out there and that's where she used to go get her haircut.

[Nancy Grace]

So that will be a matter of getting that video surveillance of the salon that day to see if she was there just before she went to Moselle,

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

if it's in existence. I mean, it's so many years have passed, I don't know. They saved it.

[Nancy Grace]

Or maybe it's in the cloud. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor, forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He is the star of a Hit podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. But for our purposes, he is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scenes under his belt. There are many ways by which Maggie Murloc could have gotten DNA under her nails.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And this is what I'm thinking. Okay? So when her. When these samples were taken from. Taken from her remains at autopsy, they would have been very, very careful, Nancy. And if you'll just permit me, I'll tell you what the breakdown is and how this is done. There's a sterile kit that we use on the hands at autopsy. Now, her hands hopefully had been bagged at the scene. Okay? When they go into the morgue, they will cut those bags away, and anything that's particulated inside of the bags, it just falls off or anything. They save those bags. All right? That's. That's in general coming off the hands. Now, the next step is that if you think about, you know, the cuticle pushers that, that people use on their nails, their long wooden sticks, there is a tool that's similar to that where we go beneath the nails. You hear this term nail clippings and nail scrapings. We do scrapings first. So under the nail, you scrape this out with this. With this instrument, okay? It falls into a piece of paper that separated. That's. That's kept separate. Each finger is done individually. Then you go through with sterile nail clippers, all right, that come in this packet, and you clip each nail. Those are kept separately. So if everybody that's listening to us right now and just think about it, where do you put your hands throughout the day? Well, you can't keep track of it. You touch various surfaces, you come in contact with it. It goes back to La Carte's principle. Every contact leaves a trace. And we're not talking about even at a trace evidence level. We're talking about at a molecular level level, Nancy, where this bit of transfer can happen with a nail. Now, our guest here is, I think this is a brilliant, brilliant examination here. Gold star to her because you're thinking about who's touching her hands at this point in time. Now, I think that if sled has suspected that there was some kind of connectivity here, they would have followed us up because this is bombshell information. And at minimum, they're saying that this was not entered into codis. All right, well, that's kind of a stab in the dark anyway. But I'm wondering if they ever thought about doing phenotyping on any of this DNA sample that was there. And that would put you into categories like racial determination, male versus female. You can actually do height, hair color, eye color, all these sorts of things relative to the subject that this foreign DNA comes from. I just wonder how far they pursued this lead.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy Today Mack, Crime Stories Investigative reporter Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this brought up in the first trial?

[Dave Mack]

It was, Nancy, and it was discussed at length during cross examination, the discussion about this specific DNA being found under Maggie Murdaugh's fingernails. And it didn't have an impact on the jury. And so it really comes down to the defense is just bringing out something that didn't work last time and they're going to try to reframe it this time.

[Nancy Grace]

But since the first trial, Dave Mack, the defense may have decided to retest the stranger DNA under her nails. Isn't that true?

[Dave Mack]

Absolutely true. They are going to push to, you know, as Jessica mentioned a minute ago about going into codis, that has been a big point of what the what the defense is saying now. They're like, we have to do more. This was used as an example of the lack of investigative work that was done during the first trial where they were talking about how the how law enforcement failed Murdoch by not investigating some things that could have proven some other guy did it. And they're really hammering on this, Nancy, because if there's DNA under her fingernails that does not belong to Alec Murdoch or anybody else in the Murdaugh family, well, you're left with, okay, she had her nails done earlier in the day.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I know a little bit about that out to Pepper. It was day 16. There were hours of testimony regarding DNA and the scientist was asked about unknown male we know it's male DNA under Maggie's fingernails. Okay. The defense had full cross exam. They asked were Paul and Alex Murdaugh excluded as contributors. Expert Zapata said yes. DEFENSE so male DNA under her nails were not from Paul and not from Alex Murdaugh. The foreign DNA to her? Yes, they were excluded as contributors. So help me out, Mark Pepper, how is this different than what was said the first time around?

[Mark Pepper]

What will be different, Nancy, is that that same cross examination will take place, except it will take place in a much more aggressive way. A and B, I suspect will be followed up by a defendant's own expert who has likely now tested this DNA, who has likely now been able to come up with a DNA profile. So maybe we get more than just a unknown male. I suspect Jim and Dick have done their homework on this. This will not Just be A simple day 16, two hour cross examination of what ifs and what fors. This will be a very targeted attack.

[Nancy Grace]

Pepper, Pepper, please, please. I know they'll put on a big circus, a big dog and pony show, but they had access to this DNA first time around. Yeah, okay, we know that it was tested. So what is different today other than Hartputland putting it out in the media? Just because he says it so doesn't make it so, Pepper.

[Mark Pepper]

Well, what makes it different is that this is a different case, this is a different trial. They're going to lead with their best items that they now understand what maybe worked the first time and what didn't work. If they get any impression, as some of your other guests have stated, that this DNA fingerprint issue kind of went over the jury's heads. Well, they're not going to let that happen again. This time they're going to spend money on experts to make sure that this becomes a central theme of this trial. I would also say this, Nancy, in response to some of your guests. They didn't put it in codis.

[Dave Mack]

Correct.

[Mark Pepper]

They didn't call their own expert. They didn't put up a big dog and pony show. Is that possible that none of these things were done by sled? Because sled didn't want to know whose DNA was under her fingernails. Isn't it possible that they had their guy and they solely focused on him and they thought, well, if we put any additional.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, good gravy, second verse, same as the first. He places himself at the scene on the dog video. If I can get the control room to pull that up, I'll play it in a moment. But first, another way they can attack based on DNA under Maggie's nails.

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

And in this case, as you saw

[Nancy Grace]

in the first trial, Sweatt bungled the crime scene processing. They didn't take DNA or attempt to

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

take DNA or fingerprints from the feed

[Dave Mack]

room where Paul was shot.

[Nancy Grace]

They walked.

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

They did not preserve things like Maggie's

[Nancy Grace]

phone in a Faraday bag.

[Dave Mack]

I mean, the office.

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

Blunder after blunder after blunder after blunder.

[Nancy Grace]

They have no forensic evidence.

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

They didn't take fingerprints, they didn't gather DNA.

[Nancy Grace]

They have no video, they have no confession. They have all. They have nothing that connects him to

[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

the murder in terms of physical evidence,

[Nancy Grace]

witnesses or statements that. From our friend Donna Ottuno at Fox News and from Inside Edition. Okay, everything that he just said is a lie. To Dr. Bethany Marshall. Joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction. She's the author of Deal breakers. You can see her now on Peacock and on Bravo and find her at Dr.bethany marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I saw Hart pooling in. His lips were moving. So I guess that means he's lying because analyze what he said. They didn't take DNA. Well, yes, they did, because that's his new claim, that the DNA that they did take doesn't match Murdaugh. Okay. They didn't preserve things like Maggie's phone in a Faraday bag. Yes, they did. They almost didn't because his client threw it out the window. And we see where Murdaugh's car, based on the black box, the nav system slowed down. You can tell he lowers the passenger side window throw. And that's exactly where her phone was found. And they did preserve it. They didn't need to put it in a Faraday bag. A Faraday bag. And I'll go to Fitzgibbons on this is something to protect the phone from emitting signals or getting signals. They found it and they preserved it. Right where Murdoch threw it out. So all that is a lie. Okay, then what else does he say? They have no forensic evidence. Well, I don't know what they think the dog video is. They didn't take fingerprints. Yes, they did. They didn't gather DNA. Yes, they did. They have no video. I'm about to play it. They don't have a confession. That's true. Because Murdoch is a very wily lawyer. They have nothing. Okay. All of that's a lie. That is all a lie. So again, his lips are moving. Dr. Bethany Marshall.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

You know, Nancy, all this lying is not going to play well with the jury. And I'll tell you what else is not going to play well with the jury. This whole thing about another. Another man's DNA being under her fingernails. You know, that would be more consistent with strangulation or with a knife attack, something like that. Right? Because then the perpetrator is close enough to Maggie and Paul that they would have to fight the perpetrator off. Now, somebody who's going to use a gun, a shotgun, is going to be far away from the victims, not close enough for the victim to have to fight the perpetrator off. So I'm sort of thinking, do they not know that the jury is capable of critical thinking? Do they not think that the jury is going to be offended by all these lies? Jurors are people to Nancy. They have thoughts, they have feelings. And they do respond to how the attorneys talk to them and speak to them. And if they're the attorneys are acting like they're third graders. They're not going to like that.

[Nancy Grace]

He states Hart Pootle again states they don't have video. Well, I'm about to play it.

[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

Watch.

[Simon Malls Announcer]

Get back.

[America 250 Announcer]

Get back.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Quit, Cash.

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

Quit.

[Nancy Grace]

That's okay.

[Dave Mack]

Come here.

[Nancy Grace]

Come here, Cash.

[Rasmussen University Testimonial Speaker]

Come here.

[Nancy Grace]

Post it.

[America 250 Announcer 2]

Gash.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, he's got a bird in his mouth.

[Gigi McKelvey]

Bubba.

[Nancy Grace]

Hey, Bubba. It's a guinea.

[Dave Mack]

This is a chicken.

[Mark Pepper]

Come here, Bubba.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Come here, Cash.

[Simon Malls Announcer]

Quick.

[Nancy Grace]

To you, Gigi McKelvey. What is the significance of that video?

[Gigi McKelvey]

I mean, the timing of it? Because it puts him right there in the kennels when their phones essentially go silent minutes later. So you have kind of a rough estimate of when these murders took place. I think it's a big video. I was there when that was played in court, and everybody was glued to that video. And after that day, you know, during a break, we all talked about how normal it sounded, which some people thought maybe that's not going to hit well with the jury because Paul seems very relaxed, Maggie seems relaxed. You hear Ella in the background saying, bubba. I mean, so we'll see what happens. But I think one thing to note, Nancy, is we're going to have an entirely new jury. And the other thing, too, we don't know where this trial is going to be held yet. There hasn't been a change of any request, but the original vote was nine guilty. Two jurors voted not guilty in that first vote. And then you have one undecided. So I think the defense is going to take the totality of this DNA evidence. The kennel video. I would focus on. Everybody sounds normal, sounds playful. You know, we don't know where this trial is going to be held. But I'll tell you this, Nancy, living in South Carolina, a lot of people think he's guilty, but there are plenty who think he didn't do it. And then there are a lot of people who really have no clue about this case. So this is going to be a very different trial in a million ways. And I'll be there for the other six weeks or however long this takes to see it through.

[Nancy Grace]

I mean, the reality is. To Brian Fitzgibbons joining us, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He is a former Marine and an Iraqi War vet. Brian, the reality is that. And jump in, Dave and Gigi. Anybody on the panel, if you've got a better timeline than I do. But it was within minutes, minutes after that video occurred. And we know when the video occurred because it was sent. The story behind the video Is that the dog you're seeing? Let's see. The dog is named Cash. Cash had to go to the vet. Cash did not belong to the Murdaughs, but the Murdogs had him in the kennel. So they were taking a video of him, specifically his tail, to show to send the video to a lady vet that night. And they did send the video to the dog's owner. So we know when the video was taken. We know based on the nav system what time Murdoch scratched off and went and hid out at his mother's. Then he was back, what, one hour later, and poof, they were dead. Do I have that timeline correct? Gigi McKelvey?

[Gigi McKelvey]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. You know, what's interesting is from the time elapsed of when Paul took the video to when his phone went silent was four minutes. So it was four minutes after that recording that both his and Maggie's phones never sent texts again. Because, remember, Paul was actively texting the owner of the dog. He was trying to figure out something that was going on physically with the dog. So, yeah, we do have that timeline there. And then at 10:34pm Wait a minute.

[Nancy Grace]

It's even if season more more Precise, Gigi. At 8:44 is the video. It started at 8:44. At 8:49, all the phones go silent. So in that five minute space. So he must have been standing there with the gun behind his back at the time of the video. And then we've got the SUV screeching off. Okay, not only that to Dave Mack Murdaugh's team is contesting the timeline, stating that we don't really know when Maggie and Paul were shot dead.

[Dave Mack]

That's exactly what they're doing. Nancy, now you just pointed out about the video about Paul's kennel video being taken at 8:44 and being sent at 8:48. But look, the argument from the defense, the time of death is only an estimate and not an exact scientific determination. They're also contesting cell phone activity and vehicle telemetry, claiming it can be misinterpreted, creating uncertainty about precisely when Maggie and Paul were killed. The defense also attacking the state's theory, saying it leaves too little time for Murdoch to commit the murders, clean up, dispose of weapons, and leave for his mother's house at 9:06pm and the defense is also arguing that investigators constructed the timeline to fit their theory rather than allowing the evidence to dictate the sequence of events.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to you, Brian Fitzgibbons, USPA Nationwide Security weigh in.

[Dave Mack]

Yeah. This kennel video is often referred to as Paul somewhat testifying from the grave. And while this doesn't prove that Alec Murdoch pulled the trigger, it certainly contests his alibi and shoots down the credibility of his alibi and points out that, you know this, some of the circumstantial evidence has quite a bit of weight to it. So it remains something that the prosecution going into the second trial is certainly going to present to the jury.

[America 250 Announcer]

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[America 250 Announcer 2]

Sixteen years ago I started working as a CNA in the hospital. I loved it. On the day I decided to enroll in the nursing program at Rasmussen University because afternoon of my 35th birthday I was hanging out with a friend and they had just questioned me what I was going to do with this next chapter of my life, I immediately said I want to go to nursing school. So I actually had contact information from an advisor at Rasmussen, contacted her and actually ended up starting like three weeks later. My name is Cherish Adams and I'm a Rasmussen University graduate.

[Nancy Grace]

Learn more at rasmussen.

[Rasmussen University Testimonial Speaker]

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[Ryan Reynolds / Osvar Loshin]

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[America 250 Announcer 2]

with Nancy Grace

[Nancy Grace]

that to Blanca Tobiata Simpson joining us, author of within the House of Murdog. Blanca, Maggie texted about you that evening around 6:10pm to son Paul who was about to be murdered, stating love you. Blanca cooked you dinner. What were the events that night leading up to the murders as you know them?

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

Alex had texted her and asked her to come. His father was not doing well and Maggie was kind of reluctant at that point. She really did not want to go back to Moselle because she had some workers at Edisto that were finishing up and she was kind of like on the fence about whether she wanted to go, whether she wanted to go back to Edisto. So I just, I remember she, she said, she asked me to cook, I cooked dinner for them and she said Paul was going to be coming out there to mix to fix the screw up, you know, on the sunflower fields and he wasn't happy about it. She said he's not happy about having to come back. And that's all. That's all, you know, when we, when we discuss. So she wasn't looking forward to coming, but she said he had asked her to come out there.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, she knew she was being lured out there. She didn't want to go. And the reality is he stated that he wanted her to come out there to go visit his ailing dad, I believe was in the Savannah Memorial Medical. And they never went. What was for supper that night? Rice and beans.

[Blanca Tubiate Simpson]

Rice green beans and country fried steak or steak burger, which is how she called it.

[Nancy Grace]

So looking at the timeline, I mean, he is right there at the scene when we think the murders go down. But yet at this juncture, Joe Scott Morgan, the defense is claiming we really don't know when the murders occurred. Well, that's BS and they're arguing that the medical examiner determine the TOD time of death by getting the temperature under Maggie's armpit. What is that all about?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, it's called an axillary. An axillary temperature, which means that you would place the thermometer externally beneath the armpit, held down just like this. Okay. It's something we've done for years and years. What? But it's, it's highly inaccurate because now kind of the gold standard is to do what's referred to as, as a core body temperature. Doing a liver stick. Some people resist doing this, and there's a lot of good reasons why not to do it. And so if, you know, people need to completely disabuse themselves of thinking that determining time of death is like an absolute science, most of the time, the body best we can do is hit somewhere between three to four hours. It's really hard to dial it in any, any tighter than that. So at best, it's an educated guess. Nancy?

[Nancy Grace]

Well, Jo Scott, we've got more than her armpit, for Pete's sake. We have her on a video at a specific time, alive. So we know she was alive then. Then we have Murdaugh back on the scene. And correct me, Gigi or Dave if I'm wrong on this. And about an hour. About an hour later. So we've got it down to one hour, don't we? Through extrinsic evidence, not just her armpit temp. What about it, Gigi?

[Gigi McKelvey]

Well, if you look at the timeline, 8:49pm was the last time. Phones. Paul's phone was unlocked by passcode. Now, that could have been anybody. It doesn't mean it was Paul. The bodies were discovered at 10:34pm or that's when the first batch of law enforcement arrived on scene. So you do have that window of the kennel video in 8:34pm when law enforcement was on scene. So clearly the murders had to have taken place somewhere within that time frame.

[Nancy Grace]

Well, I mean, the 911 call is at 10 06. Take a listen. I need the police immediately.

[Dave Mack]

My wife and child.

[Mark Pepper]

Okay, you said 4147 Mosel Road in Allison?

[Dave Mack]

Sir?

[Mark Pepper]

You said 4147 Moselle Road in Allison?

[Dave Mack]

Yes, sir. 4147.

[America 250 Announcer 2]

Yes, sir.

[Nancy Grace]

Stay on the line with me.

[Dave Mack]

Okay. Hello?

[Nancy Grace]

I'm still here. Stay on the line.

[Mark Pepper]

I'm still here.

[Matt Altmix]

Okay.

[Mark Pepper]

Collison, I have an Alex Murdoch on the line. Caller from 4147 Moselle Road.

[Dave Mack]

He's advising that his wife and child was shot. Mr. Murdoch, go ahead and talk to Colony. 4147 Moselle Road. I've been up to it. Now it's bad.

[Nancy Grace]

You know what I love about this, Brian Fitzgibbons is based on all of the digital data, we can even see how many steps he walked based on his iPhone, the time he got into his vehicle, turned it on, put it of in front reverse, put it in drive, the speed, the letting down the windows, hitting the gas to get to his mom's and then coming back. I mean, it's very, very detailed. I wonder what Harpootlein has to say to that.

[Dave Mack]

Yeah, we don't just have the armpit temperature. We have Maggie's phone and the activity and the timestamps of that activity. And when it stops, we also have Paul's phone and the normal usage stopping abruptly. Right. So there's a deep pattern of life of how often Paul was opening and using that phone prior to the date of the murder. And you know, to your point about the step activity and the telemetrics from the vehicle, there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence here, digital evidence that corroborates the estimation of this time of death.

[Nancy Grace]

Dave Mack, we know that the 911 call is at 10:06. What more can you tell me about the timeline as established by digital forensic data?

[Dave Mack]

Nancy, it is shocking what is available with that digital forensic data when you actually start with from the time Rogan Gibson sends his message to Paul Murdaugh asking if he can see a video of the dog. The forensic show that Maggie Murdoch's iPhone shows 59 steps traveled at that particular time.

[Nancy Grace]

It shows that's where she's getting shot. Or is that where she's helping take the video?

[Dave Mack]

I think that's where she's helping take the video.

[Nancy Grace]

And what time is that, Dave Mack?

[Dave Mack]

8:53.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, look at 9:06 on the timeline we constructed at 9 0653, Murdoch Suburban, shows he's in the car. Device connection to iPhone 3 connections, he's in the car. That's 9 0653. 9:07, Maggie Murdock's phone. Backlight off. 90706 he scratches out. So 9 0706, 9 0706. Okay. At 9:08, he starts texting Maggie, saying, going to check on him, be right back. He just left her. Why is he having to text her that? That's at 9:08. At 10:06, less than one hour later, he's already gotten back to the scene, found the bodies and is making the 9:1 call. So in the space of about 40 minutes, Mark Pepper, an unknown killer, comes to the scene, shoots them dead and gets away clean. Really? And I think we're going to be able to ISO it down even tighter.

[Mark Pepper]

Well, I would suggest strongly that the AG should narrow that down because 40 minutes is a long time, a long, long time for many people to have made it to that property to commit the heinous acts. I understand where everything's going, where the timeline, you know, points to at least a phone call, a video being sent, Alec leaving. But no one is going to be able to take the stand and say when the crime occurred. The best they're going to be able to do is come up with this theory that it had to be prior to Alec leaving, based solely on DNA.

[Nancy Grace]

Or of course, it's before he left, according to the defense. Why would he leave with the bodies laying right there? I mean, that doesn't even make any sense. But I appreciate your double talk, Mark. There's been a lot of confusion regarding whether the death penalty will be sought. Typically, if it's put on the table the first trial and the jury forewent it and went with life, you can't then retry him and seek the death penalty. It's kind of like punishing him for getting a new trial, right? You can't seek a greater sentence than what he got the first time. Here is the difference. DP wasn't sought the first time. Now, we understand the DP death penalty may be sought.

[Mark Pepper]

It's very possible. I still think it's unlikely for a couple reasons. One is that we are in an election year, as you may know, Nancy Allen Wilson who is the Attorney General at the time, will not be the Attorney General when this case is retried.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything regarding the murders of Maggie and Paul Murdoch, please dial 803-896-2605. The state is rebuilding its case as is the defense. Tonight we remember an American hero Officer Lewis Canty, Grand River Dam PD, Oklahoma died in the line of duty after 42 years, leaving behind a grieving wife, Stacy, two sons, Jason and Jeff, and daughter Addie. American Hero Officer Louis Canty. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night friend.

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at america250.org LA It's America's 250th, but you deserve some presents too. Simon Malls, mills and premium outlets have can't miss sales. Join Simon plus our new rewards program for free and get 2.5 times the points. In addition to extra savings, cash back and offers that also [e-mail] grab the fam, head to a Simon center and make it a day for the books. It's a sale, a bration thing. Sign up [e-mail] rewards program terms apply. See SimonPlus.com for details.

[Rasmussen University Testimonial Speaker]

I have been with Rasmussen University since 2013. All virtual. All of my professors throughout the entire journey have been nothing but supportive in making me reach my dreams. Rasmussen Professors they want to see you grow so that you can be what you went to school to be. I'm so thankful for Rasmussen University for being able to make it so easy and seamless.

[Mark Pepper]

Rasmussen University Find your seat and start now at Rasmussen.

[Nancy Grace]

Edu.

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[Dr. Bethany Marshall]

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[Nancy Grace]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.