TLC REALITY STAR BUSTED ON CHILD PORN JOSH DUGGAR DEMANDS FREEDOM ON LEGAL TECHNICALITY

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: TLC Reality Star Busted on Child Porn: Josh Duggar Demands Freedom on Legal Technicality
Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace | Guests: Jackie Howard (Crime Online Reporter), Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper & Computer Crime Expert), Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)

Episode Overview

On this episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Nancy Grace investigates the latest legal developments in the case of Josh Duggar, former reality TV star of 19 Kids and Counting. Now serving a 12.5-year prison sentence for child pornography offenses, Duggar is seeking to have his conviction overturned on legal technicalities. Nancy is joined by legal and forensic experts, as well as a crime reporter, to break down the shocking details of the case, the technical measures Duggar allegedly took to conceal his crimes, the impact on his family, and the broader implications for victims and society.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Josh Duggar’s Appeal and Legal Maneuvers

• High-Profile Legal Defense:
  • Duggar hires Beau Brinley, a Chicago-based attorney who previously represented R. Kelly, despite previously claiming to be insolvent.
  • "Dugar hires a Chicago based lawyer that represented freak R. Kelly to have his conviction vacated." — Nancy Grace [03:22]
• Basis for Appeal:
  • Claims include alleged prosecutorial misconduct, misleading forensic evidence, and withholding of evidence.
  • The motion is Duggar’s fourth and final attempt after previous denials, including at the U.S. Supreme Court level.
  • “The court is deciding whether this appeal can proceed. The current motion alleges prosecutorial misconduct, misleading forensic evidence and claims that evidence was withheld.” — Jackie Howard [05:17]
• Procedural Issues:
  • Prosecutors argue Duggar’s appeal was filed after the deadline.

2. Anna Duggar’s Reappearance and Family Dynamics

• Anna Duggar emerges on social media for the first time in five years, starting a puppy breeding business and charging $2,000 per puppy.
• Nancy poses tough questions about how Anna can explain Josh’s absence to their seven children and her decision to stay with him.
  • “How do you explain this to your children? Oh, daddy's away in jail on child porn.” — Nancy Grace [03:22]

3. Technical Evidence and Concealment Tactics

• Computer Forensics Break Down:
  • Duggar set up a “dual boot system” on his work computer (Windows and Linux partitions) to evade monitoring software like Covenant Eyes, which was installed to alert his wife to adult content.
  • “When it boots into the Linux partition, all the software, the monitoring software, the networking software, won't work on that Linux partition side.” — Glenn Bard [09:28]
  • Monitoring software (like Bark or Covenant Eyes) is commonly used to track children's online activity or in cases with prior issues.
• Password Evidence:
  • Duggar reportedly used the same unique password (“Intel 1988”) for both his banking and the hidden partition, undermining the possibility of outside tampering.
  • “The password was the same password that he used to do his banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody hacked in…” — Dr. Sarah G. West [19:56]
• Tracing and Seizure:
  • Law enforcement traced the IP address to Duggar’s used car business, leading to a search and seizure.
  • Duggar’s reaction was immediately suspicious:
    "He said, without having any idea why they took the computer, quote, has someone downloaded child porn?" — Nancy Grace [19:17]

4. Nature and Impact of Offenses

• Material Involved:
  • Files with explicit names found, depicting girls as young as 7 years old being abused, including notorious files like “Daisy’s Destruction.”
  • “I understand that there was footage of girls age 7 and 9 being raped by an adult male… and at least 65 images of a young girl, 7 or 8 years old, being sexually abused and… placed in a dog kennel.” — Nancy Grace [16:18]
  • Jurors reportedly looked away; Anna Duggar left in tears.
• Prior Abuse Allegations:
  • Testimony referenced past allegations that Duggar molested minors when he was 15, used in court to establish a pattern or motive.
  • “The prosecutor brought in previous examples of him molesting his sisters to show motive.” — Nancy Grace [32:30]

5. The Psychology of Offenders & Family Response

• Psychiatric Perspective:
  • Dr. West describes compulsive offenders as suffering from an “illness,” with therapy and medication as management options, but expresses skepticism about true rehabilitation.
  • “I do not think there's a way to entirely make that urge go away.” — Dr. Sarah G. West [30:14]
• Anna Duggar’s Loyalty:
  • Panel explores why spouses stay, especially given the addiction/illness model and hope for change.
  • Discussion on insight and the slim potential for rehabilitation.
  • “I never saw one child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't think they can change it.” — Nancy Grace [27:12]
  • “I do think that there are some treatment options…that may make it less likely that they would reengage.” — Dr. Sarah G. West [27:48]

6. The Community and Enduring Harm

• Concealment as Part of the Thrill:
  • Experts discuss how the secrecy and elaborate concealment may heighten offenders’ attraction to the material.
  • “All of the labyrinth they go through to hide something adds to the thrill of it.” — Nancy Grace [39:42]
• Lasting Trauma for Victims:
  • Ongoing devastation for victims whose abuse images circulate forever online.
  • “Her molester took hundreds and hundreds of photos… And to this day, they're still being traded on the dark Web. And how much to this day… it still upsets these victims.” — Nancy Grace [40:44]

7. Prison Discipline and Sentence Extensions

• Duggar has lost “good time credit” and had his release date extended after being disciplined in prison, including time in solitary for possessing an illegal cell phone.
  • “His cousin Amy claimed one extension was due to a rules violation that resulted in him being placed… in solitary confinement.” — Jackie Howard [25:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Illusion of TV Personas:

"I think we know people by seeing them all the time on TV. And 19 and counting ran a really long time… you start identifying with them. Look, I can't tell you what I went through when Monk… went off the air… it's very hard for you, the viewer or a juror, to think they could do anything wrong." — Nancy Grace [05:59]

On Monitoring and Concealment:

"Some people do that… They cut the hard drive in two… you can be using the Windows side… But when you want to do something that you don't want the Windows side to see… that machine can be turned off and… go into that Linux operating system." — Glenn Bard [15:32]

On the Limits of Rehabilitation:

“Have you ever known… all the years that I prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't think they can change it.” — Nancy Grace [27:12]

On the Community of Offenders:

“There is a whole community out there on the dark web who exchanges this information… once you've worked with a couple of these offenders, you get a better sense of how deep this goes.” — Dr. Sarah G. West [40:32]

On Victim Impact:

"Those children will never be the same… they go on to live, to have a job, maybe have a family. They're never ever the same. And these pervs are trading these sex images, child porn, like they're baseball cards." — Nancy Grace [42:02]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction to Duggar Case & Anna’s Return — [03:22]
• Legal Appeal Details — [05:17]
• Computer Forensics Explained (Dual Boot, Monitoring Evasion) — [09:28]
• Tracing Evidence to Duggar (IP, Passwords) — [18:10]
• Nature of Abuse Material & Court Reactions — [16:18], [17:55]
• Past Molestation Allegations Used as Evidence — [32:19]
• Discussion on Offenders’ Psychology & Illness Model — [26:50], [30:14]
• Elaborate Concealment as Part of Offender Psychology — [38:03], [39:42]
• Dark Web & Ongoing Victim Harm — [40:44], [42:02]
• Prison Discipline & Sentence Extensions — [25:18]

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Conclusion

Nancy Grace and her expert panel deliver a searing look at the mechanics and psychology behind Josh Duggar’s crimes, the profound impact on the victims and family, and the challenges of seeking justice for online child exploitation. The episode exposes how technical sophistication and calculated secrecy are not merely incidental but central to such offenses, and why, despite media facades and legal maneuvering, the human toll endures.

“We wait as justice unfolds.” – Nancy Grace [43:01]

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Transcript

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[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

Josh Duger, remember him? The former reality TV star Josh Duger and the big happy family. Dugar hires a Chicago based lawyer that represented freak R. Kelly to have his conviction vacated. This as his wife and Anna Dugar returns to social media for the first time in five years. Her husband Josh festering behind bars. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. First of all, let's talk about Anna Dugar. She makes her very first appearance on social media in five years with a brand new blonde hairstyle. She is the wife of the disgraced 19 Kids and Counting star Josh Duger. He's now serving a 12 and a half year term on child porn. Ew. She popped up on social media plugging her puppy breeding business. She is a mother of seven. How do you explain this to your children? Oh, daddy's away in jail on child porn. She stayed out of the spotlight since her husband's conviction but now she's reportedly charging $2,000 per puppy. She looked a lot better than she did the last time we saw her weathering the trial of her husband. But now let's get down to it. Josh Duker hires a high profile lawyer, the same lawyer that represented sex freak sex trafficker, former famous musician R. Kelly.

[Jackie Howard (Crime Online Reporter)]

Attorney Bo Brinley is arguing Duggar's trial was unfair. At an appeal hearing last month, Duggar appeared virtually. Prosecutors have argued that this appeal was filed after the deadline. The court is deciding whether this appeal can proceed. The current motion alleges prosecutorial misconduct, misleading forensic evidence and claims that evidence was withheld. This is Duggar's fourth and final appeal. His previous attempts to vacate the conviction, including appeals to the 8th U.S. circuit Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court have been denied.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

Let's, as we say in court, refresh our recollection on the Josh Duggar trial.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Josh is our oldest. He married Anna and they have our first grandchildren. Josh Dugar is charged with child pornography. Joining me an all star panel, Glenn Bard, retired Pennsylvania state trooper first class. Now this is the important part, computer crime investigations. That's why we need to talk to Glenn Bard, US Veteran, Operation Desert Storm. It goes on and on. Pat Tech Digital. You can find [e-mail] Sarah G. West. Excuse me. Dr. Sarah G. West, forensic psychiatrist specializing in sexually deviant behavior and associate professor of psychiatry and Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine. It's a lot to take in because I've learned, Dr. West, that very often we think we know people by seeing them all the time on TV. And 19 and counting ran a really long time, I understand, on tlc. And it wasn't just the mom and dad. There are these innocent child figures that you attach to and when you watch it, every single episode, you start identifying with them. Look, I can't tell you what I went through when Monk, I don't know if you ever saw that went off the air. He was a detective with all sorts of emotional and mental disorders. I actually missed Monk. So when you attach to these people, it's very hard for you, the viewer or a juror to think they could do anything wrong. Dr. West?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

Sure.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

So television shows, of course, have the benefit of leaving things on the editing room floor. They get to project an image of what they want you to, to see rather than what is actually going on behind the scenes, which they may or may not know about.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You know, what is that feeling of familiarity that we think we know that person when really we don't?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

Sure. I don't think we really know anyone.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You know, I noticed it I guess the first time during the O.J. simpson trial because the jurors really thought they knew Simpson. Little did they know that my former co anchor Johnnie Cochran and others had gone through Simpson's house and completely redecorated regarding private photos. All sorts of art. So when the jurors walked through, they saw a completely different aspect of Simpson. I guess it wasn't an aspect of Simpson's, it wasn't even real. But it fit with what they thought they knew. Guys, we're talking about Josh Dugar, 33 year old father of multiple children, himself on trial for child pornography. I want to go first to Glenn Bard regarding what we know about Dugar's computer. But the counts here seem to indicate that he went through quite a lot to download the porn. It's my understanding, Glenn Bard, former Pennsylvania state trooper, first class, computer crime investigations expert, that he had all sorts of software on his computer at work at the used car lot so it would not alert his wife. He was looking at not just inappropriate sex material, but illegal sex material.

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

From what I understand, what he had was a dual boot system. What that means is that it had a Windows operating system, but he could then boot into a Linux partition. And the reason why people do that, not just this reason, but one of the reasons is because when it boots into the Linux partition, all the software, the monitoring software, the networking software, won't work on that Linux partition side.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Glenn Bard, I hate to interrupt you midstream, but a lot of people don't know what you're saying because you're way, way, way DEFCON 4 on this. You've got to talk not computer language, but regular people talk. So when I say I believe from the facts, the state is trying to prove that Josh Dugar from 19 and Counting On TLC had special software on his computer so his wife Anna at home would not be alerted he was looking at child porn. So let's start with something easy for, for non techies like myself to get their mind around. What is an alert on your computer that will notify somebody else, a third party, that you're doing something really naughty? What is that?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

There is monitoring software that will alert people when something like pornography is being viewed or certain websites are being accessed. Some people can use it to monitor their children and other people use it for like this circumstance. Maybe a person who had a history in the past.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You say some people use it to monitor their children. Like we have Bark B A R K and it's. I had never heard of it before, but it alerts you when your child goes onto a website that's bad for them. And let me tell you what happened the other day. Listen to this, Dr. West. So I got an alert that my son John David was into self harm. Well I nearly did a backflip. I went on immediately because Bark had alerted me. Guess what? It was that week and I was there when it happened. He was defending a goal. He was goalie in a soccer game at school and he dived almost sideways and his arm went through the net. And he was so proud that he had an injury. It was a bruise. So he took, he took a picture of his bruise that he got. And by the way, he did defend it. They did not score. The other team did not score. And he was so proud that he was showing it off. He took a picture of it with cell phone and sent it to some of his friends. Look what I got. Defending the goal. And Bark was so sensitive it picked up on that bruise and him taking a picture of it, it alerted me, you know, so I found that really interesting, Dr. West, that it's so sensitive to pick up things just like that. Have you ever encountered that in your psychiatric practice?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

I have never seen the monitor software in use, but certainly self harm is a huge issue with our adolescent population now. So great that you are on top of that, I'm telling you. Sorry.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Okay, so let me ask you back to you, Glenn Bard, when you say that it's like parents who monitor their children, what do you mean by that?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

What I mean is the software itself, what it does, is it be set up to just monitor activities, a person's activities, whether it be spending too much time on social media or accessing websites that contain pornography. And what it will do is it will notify a person. It can be anything from just sending an email out or sending your Internet history to an email account. And that lets the person be able to know what's been going on on that computer system.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Okay. It's a dichotomy and I want to talk to you about this, Dr. West, that they present such a wholesome image. But yet we're find finding out that according to the state, Josh Dugar downloaded child porn.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

And that is something people often do in the privacy of their own home that others may have no idea about.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Actually what's happening in the courtroom can be very confusing if you're not a high tech computer guru like Glenn Bard is. But what's happening in that courtroom right now our jurors are getting an overload a computer, tech education and child porn. Take a listen to our friend Craig O' Neill at THV11.

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Bobby Holt, a longtime friend of Duggar's, to testify. The prosecution claims in 2003, Duggar told Holt on several occasions he molested as many as four minors for several years. Duggar's lawyers say Holt should not testify because the things he said were at a time that she was at acting as his spiritual advisor with the understanding it would be confidential.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Take a listen now to our friends at People magazine. It's describing how Josh Duker's computer at work, not home, was quote, riddled with illicit material. I'm talking about child porn with children as young as seven, maybe younger.

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The program made it possible that while

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

the public facing portion of the computer

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appeared to be mostly business related, the hard drive had in fact been split in two. Another expert's testimony described it as a separate computer on a computer.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You know, I understand it was something called a Linux or Linux partition, which is a sophisticated piece of software creating a separate workspace on your computer. You install it as software on your computer, but then you open it up as if it's an entirely different device. What about that, Glenn Bart? Does that make any sense to you?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

Some people do that. What happens? They describe it very well. They cut the hard drive in two. And what will happen is you can be using the Windows side, which we all use for work in many cases. But when you want to do something that you don't want the Windows side to see, or you just want to go into a different operating system, that machine can be turned off and turned back on and this time go into that Linux operating system. It's its own operating system. And it gives you truly like a second computer. It's the same keyboard, the same monitor, the same housing itself, but it's a completely different operating system. And when you do that, what it allows it to do is any type of controls that would be in place on the Windows side won't be in control on that Linux side.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

We're talking about Josh Digar, 33 years old now, reality star in a former hit series on TLC, 19 Kids and Counting. It was a staple on TLC, a highly rating network. To Jackie Howard, joining us from crimeonline.com, prosecutors have said in open court, and these are their words, not mine, that Dugar downloaded images and videos of young girls as young as seven years old being, quote, abused, violated and exploited, including files named such names as Daisy's Destruction, Playboy, Sweetie and Pedo Mom. I understand that there was a Little Rock Police Department special task force called Torrential Downpour. It was an undercover online investigation to unmask pedophiles and perverts. I understand that there was footage of girls age 7 and 9 being raped by an adult male and 65 images, at least of a young girl, 7 or 8 years old, being sexually abused and then placed in a dog kennel. Jackie Howard, is it true that several of the jurors actually looked away as snippets of this material was shown to them on monitors?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

That is true, Nancy. Obviously it's a very difficult situation and that is not easy material to look at. But we also know that Josh Duker's family was affected. In fact, his wife actually got up and walked out of the courtroom in tears at that time.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

What does it mean? GLENN Bard, the court heard that Calmer, who was with the Little Rock police, tipped off federal investigators and they traced the, quote, IP address to Josh Duggar's used car dealership, Wholesale Motor Cars. What does that mean to trace an IP address What is that?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

So the IP address is Internet protocol. And what that is is a number that will identify a network on the Internet. Kind of like your phone number will identify your series of phones at your home. The same thing happens to the Internet. It's just a series of numbers that will identify a network accessing Internet through one access point or router. So what they do is they can take that IP address and it will tell them the ist, Internet Service provider. And what they do then is serve legal process on that ist, who will then in turn tell them where that network comes back to physically, the physical location of that IP address at that time.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You know what I find really interesting? Jackie Howard joining us from Crime Online. When the feds came in and grabbed his desktop at work, Wholesale Motors, he said, without having any idea why they took the computer, quote, has someone downloaded child porn? Okay, you've heard me say this till I'm sure you're blue in the face. Methinks thou doth protest too much. It's like you walk by a cop at the mall and you say, hey, I wasn't part of that smash and grab. And nobody asked. That's what he did. Jackie, has someone downloaded child pornography?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

It is what he did, Nancy. And given his history that he has admitted in the past to having an issue and having been through a treatment center during his marriage, he was very open with his wife. And they actually installed on that computer a program called Covenant Eyes. They subscribed to this in 2013. So we're looking at about eight years ago. And this program would alert his wife to any adult Internet usage and it would report that back to Anna Dugar. Now, the information that was set up, as you mentioned, on the Linksys system was in a partition and had a password. The password was the same password that he used to do his banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody hacked in and decided to use the exact same password for what he did his banking with.

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[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

Former reality star of 19 Kids and Counting, Josh Duggar hires R. Kelly's lawyer, Beau Brinley. Even though he previously claimed he was flat broke, why is he hiring a high profile lawyer? Because he wants to get out of jail, of course.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Nancy.

[Jackie Howard (Crime Online Reporter)]

Apparently Duggar doesn't want out of jail bad enough to follow the rules. Duggar has faced disciplinary action and spent time in solitary confinement that has impacted his good time credit which is now extended his jail stay. Originally, he was scheduled to be released in August 2032. Now for the third extension. Duggar's scheduled release date is February 2, 2033. He had approximately two months added to his previous release date. His cousin Amy claimed one extension was due to a rules violation that resulted in him being placed, as I said, in solitary confinement. In a 2023 disciplinary action, he possessed an illegal cell phone.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

While the former 19 Kids and Counting Reality star tries to bite and claw his way out of jail, hiring a brand new lawyer, the jury in his case will not soon forget the evidence.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Dr. Sarah G. West, you're the MD in psychiatry. Help me out. First I want to talk to you about the wife, okay? And this is not her fault. She's not the one downloading child porn according to prosecutors. I mean sick child porn where you rape a 7 year old girl and then put her in a dog kennel. I could say more, but I'm not. I'm not. So why does the wife, they've got seven children together. Why does a wife stay with somebody that she knows they're addicted to not just pornography, but child pornography.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

Well, I would suggest as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or the Psychiatry Bible would tell us that looking at this kind of material is an illness. And you know, if you view it through that lens, then you would maybe be more tempted to stick around and see somebody through their illness.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

I'm sorry, seeing it as an illness. Okay, I understand that. But have you ever known Dr. West with me, Sarah G. West, forensic psychiatrist. You can find her@forensics psychiatrymd.com Sarah west and all the years that I prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't think they can change it. If you disagree, tell me why.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

Well, I do think that there are some treatment Options available that may make it less likely that they would re engage in that kind of behavior.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You mean like Pavlov's dogs? In other words, they still want to do the naughty thing, but they know they're going to get zapped if they do it. The impulse to do it never goes away. But they can be trained not to do it, Is that what you're saying?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

That is a very psychological approach to that. And yes, I think that is quite possible.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

How is that different from what you said?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

I would say that it's probably a little more complex. I think that you could probably decrease the impulses as well, but that would be the more challenging piece. Controlling the behavior is absolutely the thing that we need to be mindful of. And there are a couple of techniques that psychiatrists and psychologists both utilize to do that. The first is therapy. The mainstay of therapy is victim empathy. I think that that is a nice way to teach people that what they're doing hurts other folks. And the second, probably more intrusive form is medication. Medication can decrease sex drive and decrease somebody's likelihood that they would be able to physically, physically act on those implants.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

So basically you're saying, let me just put it in regular people talk. Decrease sex activity so the perp can't get an erection.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

That is one of the methods, yes. Another method would be the you utilization of a medication. That's real common. They're SSRIs, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. More commonly, people might know Prozac, Zoloft. Those are actually medications that decrease sex drive, decrease sexual desire. It's a side effect. We can use that side effect to treat people who have unusual sexual impulses.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

So you say unusual sex impulses. I call them felonies. But Dr. West. So your one treatment to decrease the urge for child sex or child porn is to dope them up, but the minute they get off the drugs, they're right back at it. My question is, is there a way, to your knowledge, to cure them? To stop them forever having the impulse to have sex with children, which is rape, or look at child porn, to make that urge go away?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

I do not think there's a way to entirely make that urge go away.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

So, Dr. West, like it or not, I think you agree with me because I've never seen a child molester, to my chagrin, ever be cured. When I was a new prosecutor, I was besieged by defense attorneys that wanted me to send their client to treatment facilities instead of to jail. I did it once. It was a Mistake. It was a mistake. I never did it again because I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way. It doesn't work. I don't think it works.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

I do think it depends on insight. If people recognize they have a problem and are motivated to solve it, just like any other medical condition, diabetes, high blood pressure, then they can do the things that are necessary to keep it under control.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

You know, Jackie, I want to go back to you. Jackie Howard. Duggar says he was, quote his words, not mine, vaguely familiar with the Password Intel 1988, prompting a brief but furious exchange of Roberts who accused him of hiding information. So, long story short, he admits that's his password. He knows it's his password. And what was he using the password for? Jackie Howard.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

He was using it to access his banking information.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

And good lord, I'm a J.D. not a DDS. I don't know how to pull teeth. I can certainly try. Jackie Howard, he was also using it to look at videos of 7 to 8 year old girls being sexually abused, I. E. Raped and put in dog kennels. Take a listen to what? Go ahead.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

And if you did not have access to that password for the petition on his computer, no one else could access that.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

No one else could access that. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our cut 32. This is Emma Claybrook at 4029 News.

[Cold Sore Problem Narrator / Meaningful Beauty Advertiser]

Before the forensics expert took the stand,

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

the jury heard from three former Duggar family friends. The final witness testified that Duggar allegedly touched the private parts of four juveniles

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

in 2003 when he was 15. So let me understand this, Dr. West. The prosecutor brought in previous examples of him molesting his sisters to show motive. And the sisters were young, they were underage at the time, considered children in the eyes of the law to show motive for downloading child porn. Does that make sense to you, Dr. West?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

It does make sense that we would look at someone's past behavior to get a better sense of what's going on currently. Absolutely. Something that I do when I work with folks who have a history of sex offense is examine what has happened in the past to get a better understanding understanding of what's going on right now.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

I don't understand, Dr. West, how when you've already been in trouble for sex related crimes that you're willing to risk your livelihood, your marriage, losing your seven children. Because if he's convicted of child porn, he's not going to have access or visitation, unfettered visitation with his children. That's not going to happen. No, you're right, why would a per risk at all?

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

So it is a difficult pill to swallow. But again, I'll go back to the concept that this is an illness.

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[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

crime stories with Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

Reality star of 19 Kids and Counting hires a lawyer who defended R. Kelly in his jailhouse bid to have his conviction thrown out. But I remember the evidence.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Glenn, have you seen this before where people that download child porn go through extreme and elaborate measures to hide it?

[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

Absolutely. A lot of times when I've seen personally from my investigations that child porn a lot of times will be something that's very important to them and like the same way that you protect things, very important to you, whether it be, you know, your children and so on like that. That's what they do with this sort of stuff. I've seen almost identical things where people will go to great lengths about hiding it or even I remember one case in particular. I had a person who had his family living in utter filth in a house. The house was deplorable. It was. I mean, I felt terrible just walking through there. But when you walked into that guy's computer room, he actually kept covers and cloth on the computers to keep them clean and safe. He had his children living in utter absolute filth. But those computer systems were protected and covered and kept safe. And the reason why is because what was on them was child pornography. It was kind of like almost the focal point of everything that he had in his life. So this is not surprising to hear this sort of thing taking place.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

I hate to say it, you know, another thing. Dr. Yeah, jump in.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

One of the things that also important to remember that in regards to this Linux partition that he had on his computer, not only that he had software that would also circumvent any search and make sure that the monitoring program that he had and his wife had installed on the computer would not work and would not notify her.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

So he went to extreme measures. And my question to you, Dr. Sarah west, is, I don't know quite how to say this, but sometimes it seems to me that the effort, the conniving, the scams, the secrecy, all of the labyrinth they go through to hide something adds to the thrill of it. You know, like see people that are cheating on their spouse, they go through all this drama to register at a hotel under a different name and pay in cash and wear a hat and sunglasses when they go on. It's crazy to me, but to them, that's part of the excitement of it, potentially.

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

Yeah. And there is a whole community out there on the dark web who exchanges this information. The, you know, once you've worked with a couple of these offenders, you get a better sense of how deep this goes.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

Guys, we are talking about a reality TV star. Josh Dugar. Straight back out to Jackie Howard, crimeonline.com investigative reporter. Jackie, you and I have talked in depth with, for instance, our friend, we'll call her Alicia, Alicia, who was raped and molested as a young child, and her molester took hundreds and hundreds of photos and video images of her. And to this day, they're still being traded on the dark Web. And how much to this day, years decades later, it still upsets these victims. These images are being traded like baseball

[Dr. Sarah G. West (Forensic Psychiatrist)]

cards, Jackie Howard, Nancy and the ring. That these pictures get passed in on the dark web and through message boards by pedophiles and sex abuse people who watch porn and it's just a circle and they enjoy sharing it. It's almost like a hobby in a way. They enjoy sharing what they have found and what they've seen with other people who are abusers.

[Nancy Grace (Main Speaker/Host)]

If I were in court right now, I would state, look you dead in the eyes and tell you what's on those images. The videos I've already told you about, the little girls being raped, one little girl being molested and thrown in a dog pen. There's so many more that are even more graphic of little children being sexually abused and forced to pose in certain ways in front of the camera. Those children will never be the same. I've worked with. I can't even count how many molestation victims, children. They go on to live, to have a job, maybe have a family. They're never ever the same. And these pervs are trading these sex images, child porn, like they're baseball cards.

[Nancy Grace (Host of Crime Stories)]

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[Glenn Bard (Retired Pennsylvania State Trooper, Computer Crime Expert)]

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