Train-Stab Victim Iryna Zarutska's Alleged Killer  Deemed Incompetent For Trial

Summary

Podcast Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Title: Train-Stab Victim Iryna Zarutska's Alleged Killer Deemed Incompetent For Trial
Date: June 6, 2026
Host: Nancy Grace
Guests:

• Randy Kessler, Veteran Trial Lawyer
• Dr. Thomas Coyne, Chief Medical Examiner
• Karen Stark, Forensic Psychologist
• Ron Bateman, Former Homicide Detective
• Susan Hendricks, Investigative Journalist
• Andy Kahn, Director of Victim Services & Advocacy, Crime Stoppers
• Judge Teresa Stokes (audio)

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Episode Overview

Nancy Grace examines the tragic murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska on a North Carolina light rail train. The episode centers on the shocking news that her accused killer, Decarlos Brown Jr., has been deemed mentally incompetent to stand trial. Through 911 audio, expert analysis, and heated debate, Grace and her guests scrutinize the events, the mental health defense, failures of the criminal justice system, and the trauma inflicted on victims and society.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Crime and Its Aftermath

• Incident Recap:

  • Iryna Zarutska, a young Ukrainian refugee, was brutally stabbed to death by Decarlos Brown Jr. on a Charlotte train. The attack was captured on camera; several bystanders filmed or called 911, but few offered aid.
  • 911 Audio & Video: Multiple distressing 911 calls paint a picture of chaos and desperation, with callers describing a "bloody and hopeless scene" ([03:26–09:18]).

• Death Penalty Context:

  • Killing on mass transit is an aggravating circumstance under North Carolina law, opening the door for the death penalty ([05:18], [06:43]).
  • Grace critiques legal explanations for this and emphasizes the broader societal impact of violent crimes on public transportation.

2. The Defense & Mental Incompetency Ruling

• Incompetent to Stand Trial:

  • Brown’s lawyers claim he is unfit for trial based on a psychiatric evaluation ([26:22]).
  • Explanation of legal standards:
    • Competency: Ability to understand proceedings and assist in one's defense ([54:27]).
    • Insanity: Refers to the defendant’s mental state at the time of the crime, not the trial ([55:08]).
  • Discussion of the likely defense strategy—seeking incompetency for delay, then pleading insanity at trial ([55:56]).

• Insanity Defense Debated:

  • Kessler explains the McNaughton Rule: "Did the defendant know right from wrong at the time?" ([34:12], [35:08]).
  • Debate over whether Brown’s post-crime behavior (changing clothes, leaving the scene) shows knowledge of guilt, contradictory to an insanity defense ([18:35], [31:32]).

3. Forensic & Psychological Analysis

• Nature of the Wounds:

  • Dr. Coyne describes the fatal neck wounds—probable carotid artery damage leading to rapid, likely unavoidable death ([12:03], [13:05]).

• Trauma to Victims and Witnesses:

  • Grace, Stark, and call-in witnesses discuss the emotional toll—from witness trauma to societal desensitization to violence ([10:08], [16:03], [61:02]).
  • Stark emphasizes, “That’s trauma, terrible trauma... he’s going to have those nightmares the rest of his life.” ([10:08])

• Media Ethics:

  • Bateman and Kahn criticize repeated public airing of violence, arguing it desensitizes and disrespects victims ([61:02], [62:29]).

4. Failures of the Criminal Justice System

• Missed Red Flags:

  • Brown had 14 prior arrests, frequently released on low or no bond thanks to criminal justice reform laws ([32:14], [44:45], [58:52]).
  • Andy Kahn: “This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure… so utterly preventable.” ([44:45], [57:29])

• Legislative Fallout:

  • A new law ("Irena’s Law") is mentioned as a reaction, but guests remain skeptical of its sufficiency ([50:05]).

• Judicial Critique:

  • Grace singles out Judge Teresa Stokes for leniency: “About as hard on crime as a limp noodle” ([50:37]).

5. Societal & Juror Perspectives

• Empathy and Outrage:

  • The episode is steeped in outrage about spectators recording rather than helping, and about systemic failures enabling career criminals.
  • Detailed attention given to the horror and humanity in 911 calls and train surveillance, emphasizing the public’s fear and trauma.

• Legal Strategy Conversations:

  • Host and guests debate what evidence is most persuasive for a jury (emotional calls, video, defendant’s behavior).

• Victim Remembered:

  • Zarutska is honored as an innocent, hardworking refugee seeking a better life, whose murder is both senseless and symbolic of broader failures.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Nancy Grace (on public transportation and the death penalty):
  "Mass transit killings or DP—Death Penalty—because much like a titular murder where a governor or a senator or a president, a judge is killed, it's not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why." ([05:35])

• Randy Kessler (on 911 audio):
  “They say a picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth 10,000 words. There's no way to unring that bell... Jury hears that, that equals conviction.” ([07:47])

• Karen Stark (on trauma):
  "That's trauma, terrible trauma. Because just imagine, I want everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being stabbed for no reason at all." ([10:08])

• Dr. Thomas Coyne (on cause of death):
  “Those vessels carry blood about a half a liter to 3/4 of a liter per minute... if that vessel is cut, you can bleed out probably half of your total blood volume in less than about a two minute period. Most times these wounds are fatal.” ([12:03])

• Andy Kahn (on system failure):
  “We continue to allow repeat offenders right back into our community to do what they do best, and that's commit crimes. This is a national issue… the criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country's history.” ([44:45])

• Ron Bateman (on post-crime behavior):
  “He has the wherewithal... to try to conceal his identity. He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in the hoodie. He tries to blend in and walk among the patrons... which is bull crap [as a mental health defense].” ([37:23])

• Susan Hendricks (on legislative response):
  "A step in the right direction, but it's clearly not enough. Meaning... it will take away some of the power from the judges to make that decision in letting someone who has priors out of prison." ([50:05])

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Important Timestamps

• Incident & 911 audio analysis: [02:17–09:18]
• Death penalty and legal aggravators: [05:18–07:55]
• Forensic breakdown of wounds: [12:03–13:23]
• Discussion of traumatized witnesses: [10:08, 16:03]
• Suspect’s behavior post-attack: [18:35–21:26, 31:32–32:14, 37:23–39:19]
• Mental health defense & legal standards: [33:07–35:08, 54:12–56:25]
• Criminal history/examination of system failures: [32:14–33:07, 44:45, 50:05, 58:48]
• Ethics of broadcasting crime footage: [61:02–63:23]
• Expert commentary on victim's suffering: [64:11]
• Competency ruling and next steps: [64:29-end]

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Conclusion

This episode provides a powerful, disturbing look at a tragedy with broad social, legal, and ethical implications. Nancy Grace and her guests dissect the senseless killing, the failures that led to it, and the role of mental health in the American criminal justice system. The emotional testimony of witnesses, the detailed discussion of legal standards, and the critique of both system and society make for a gripping and comprehensive analysis of a crime that has shocked and angered many.

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For further updates and analysis, listeners are encouraged to follow Nancy Grace and her featured guests on social media and check legal developments in the Zarutska case.

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human

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[Randy Kessler]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

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[Karen Stark]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Karen Stark]

In a shock development, the murder suspect decarlos Brown, accused of murdering a beautiful Ukrainian woman, Irina Zarudska, on a train. It is now announced he cannot stand trial for the murder.

[Nancy Grace]

What?

[Karen Stark]

I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. As you will recall, a North Carolina man accused in the brutal stabbing death of a gorgeous Ukrainian refugee, Aryna Zyrutska. It was all caught on camera on a light rail vehicle on a light rail train in North Carolina. Now escapes trial. Attorneys for Decarlos Brown Jr. Said his trial should be called off following an evaluation by a psychiatrist. Let's refresh our recollections as to what

[Nancy Grace]

happened to Irina 911 audio. The train stabbing victim Irena reveals her final desperate moments and what is described by witnesses as a bloody and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty? I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[911 Dispatcher]

This is Charlotte911. Be police, fire medic.

[911 Caller]

We on the pain. This man just stabbed this woman for no reason. I'm Sailor Trauma.

[Nancy Grace]

Why did Irena have to die? Stabbed dead on public transportation?

[911 Dispatcher]

You said a male stabbed someone for no reason. Do they need medicine?

[Nancy Grace]

The community still reeling now, what makes this murder different from other murders? I'm about to play you that newly released audio and I've got to warn you up front, it's very, very disturbing. Straight out to veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot of high profile clients. Randy Kessler, Emory Law School professor, former chair, ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce Protect yourself, your kids and your future. Kessler. This case is a death penalty case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder according to the state occurred on mass transit. In a nutshell. Okay, you're not delivering a speech at the ABA for why is that an aggravating circumstance? Randy Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

That's all they need is to pass the threshold. And in the law, they're allowed to ask for the death penalty because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor, nobody wants this guy around. They're going to get a good shot at the death penalty. All they needed was the avenue to get in. They've got it because it's public transportation that authorizes the death penalty. Ask.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, you do know what you just did, right? Put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why is it a death penalty? Because it's on mass transit. And you say like three times it's death penalty because it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now I see why you win so many cases and snow appellate court judges, I hope they're not watching right now for your sake. Mass transit killings or DP Death penalty. Because much like a titular murder where a governor or a senator or a president, a judge is killed, it's not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why. That or a police officer. That's why those are death penalty cases. This is a. Am I actually Q and A with myself? Kessler this is a death penalty case. Mass transit because it's what it represents. Mass transit, government. Who's going to get on a bus or A train. If this guy's walking free with a

[Randy Kessler]

bloody knife, well, that's the reason for the death penalty. You want to find the cases where a death penalty is really going to have a chilling effect. Hopefully, it's going to scare other people. But the problem is, Nancy, nobody's going to not kill somebody because they might get death instead of life in prison. To me, it should be death penalty because jury wants it.

[Nancy Grace]

Really? Because I don't want Old Sparky. I don't want the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short, that is why this is a death penalty case. Because Irena was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm of the government, and there's arena right now. And because it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to step on a bus. Chaos. That is why this is a death penalty case. But I want to get back. This is something that Kessler loathes and hates. When a 911 audio is played in front of a jury. Why do you hate that so much, Kessler? Because I love it.

[Randy Kessler]

They say a picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth 10,000 words. There's no way to unring that bell, period. Jury hears that, that equals conviction.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's take a listen and see if he's right.

[911 Dispatcher]

This is Charlotte. 911. Do you need police, fire, medic?

[911 Caller]

We own a plane. Stab this woman for no reason.

[911 Dispatcher]

You said a male stabbed someone for no reason.

[911 Caller]

Do they need medic?

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, stand line with medic, Medic and county fire. What is the address of the emergency?

[911 Caller]

We are right at the. What is this? We're down here right across from Abercrombie east and West Boulevard. The train station.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, Kessler, you're right. This man calling 91 1. What he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler. How do you think the jury's going to react to that?

[Randy Kessler]

He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him. That's the. That's the whole point of the audio. You can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself and you don't ever want to be in his position. You don't ever want to witness that. You don't want to experience that. And you don't want a loved one to experience it. And you feel it. It's emotionally draining. It hits you right here. That's a conviction. That audio equals conviction to me.

[Nancy Grace]

I want to hear that one. I'm going to go to the next 911, but I want to hear that one more time. We're hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over what just happened to Irena. Listen, this is Charlotte 911.

[911 Dispatcher]

Do you need police, fire, medic? You said a male stab someone for no reason.

[Nancy Grace]

Do they need medico.

[911 Caller]

The train. You have to clean it.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, stand line with medic. Mexican County Fire. What is the address of the emergency?

[911 Caller]

We are right at the. What is this? Right across from Abercrombie and Peace and West Boulevard, the train station.

[Nancy Grace]

With me, a renowned forensic psychologist, TV, radio, trauma expert, consultant is Karen Stark@karen stark.com. karen, thank you for being with us. The man is in tears. The man is crying and he says, I was standing right beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest of his life.

[Karen Stark]

Without a doubt, Nancy, that's trauma, terrible trauma. Because just imagine, I want everyone to imagine being there on a train, innocently going wherever you're going, and then you see somebody being stabbed for no reason at all.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, my stars. Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see the video? The guy is walking around here. He is. He's about to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket for his knife. Plenty of time to form intent. You see what's on the. Do you see what's on the floor? He's wandering around with a knife, dripping with blood. I guess the 911 caller is traumatized. Karen Stark, Without a doubt.

[Karen Stark]

Absolutely. Nancy, how could you not be? I think everyone who witnessed that will be traumatized. How many people see something like that recently riding on a train?

[Nancy Grace]

Hopefully none. Guys, we have just obtained the newly released 911 calls.

[911 Dispatcher]

Listen, there's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out.

[911 Caller]

Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now?

[911 Dispatcher]

Yes, she's on the train. She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this one site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

Joining us, Dr. Thomas Coyne, Chief Medical Examiner, District 2, Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida. Never lacking business there. Pathologist, toxicologist, neuropathologist. It goes on and on. Dr. Coyne, thank you for being with us. What are they trying. The medic is trying to explain what's happening. What's happening?

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Sure. So, I mean, from watching the horrible video, you can see that the stab wound was likely to the neck, just around the collarbone area. And in that area you had several major arteries. If the blade is long enough, it could certainly have cut the aorta or some of the branches of the aorta, including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood about a half a liter to 3/4 of a liter per minute. So if you can imagine, if that vessel is cut, you can bleed out probably half of your total blood volume in less than about a two minute period. So what they're trying to do is put pressure on that area, or at least I hope they're trying to put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding, but very hard to put pressure on that area because it's your neck, the collarbone's in the way. So it's hard to actually stop the blood from splurging out. It's a. Most times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible to get this person to the hospital on time.

[Nancy Grace]

You said you can lose half your blood in less than two minutes.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Yes, because blood flow here, these vessels carry blood at high volume and fast rate. And so when you cut that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the heart beats, blood will spurt out. And yes, you could lose, you know, a couple liters of blood within a couple minute window. A small, a very small window of time.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, I want to hear, hear the tone that the medic has in the 911 call. Listen to the medic.

[911 Dispatcher]

There's just a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out.

[911 Caller]

Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now?

[911 Dispatcher]

Yeah, she's on the train.

[911 Caller]

On the train.

[911 Dispatcher]

She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this wound site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

And Dr. Thomas Coyne, you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I hear resignation. The medic's not going. Hurry, hurry, hurry. Get here. Hurry, hurry. She's like, she's on the ground. She's. She's a lot of blood. They know, don't they? Dr. Coyne, have you ever felt that when you're trying your best to save a patient and you know, there's just nothing you can do, but you're trying anyway?

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

During my early years of training, yeah. And especially in the trauma centers, in the Hospital where you have, you know, the injury is most likely fatal, but you're doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive. And when you have an injury like this and you've lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in there and repair it in time to save the patient. It's just. It's a horrible experience.

[Nancy Grace]

I know that all of the newly released 911 audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with the medic made me the most upset. Because, you know, when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people, including me, just power through it. And it's only after it's over that you think, oh, my God, I nearly X. Or she nearly X was hit by a car or fell off the tree. Or it's after it's over that you have a sigh of relief. But here I hear the resignation in the medic's voice.

[911 Dispatcher]

Listen, there's a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's screaming that she got stabbed. And I don't know if anybody's called 911 yet. People are just freaking out.

[911 Caller]

Okay, I want to get some more information. Are you with the patient now?

[911 Dispatcher]

Yeah, she's on the train.

[911 Caller]

On the train.

[911 Dispatcher]

She's on the train. She's on the ground right now. There's people around her right now. I think they're holding pressure on this wound site. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

Karen, start. That was the most upsetting part of. Of all the 911 we're about to play.

[Karen Stark]

Well, because you hear it in her voice when she sighs, Nancy. But I also want to point out in watching that video that Rin is suffering. It's not that he stabs her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can very clearly see the horror on her face, the pain and the fact that she's suffering, holding her mouth before she falls down and ultimately dies.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh, gosh, you're right, Karen. She's looking down. She's looking down. She looked down at her stab. You're right, Karen. She's just.

[Karen Stark]

Ugh.

[Nancy Grace]

She's dying right in front of us. Here's more of the 911 calls.

[911 Dispatcher]

Did you see the person who stabbed the female at all? No, I did not. We were on a different train park down the road line, and this is in the very last train park. I think the person's gone.

[911 Caller]

Okay.

[911 Dispatcher]

She's stabbed in the carotid, I believe. We're not 100% confident that she's gone. I'm not supposed to. There's a lot of people around her. They're all saying it's gone. The pupils are blown out, and there's no Pulse.

[Nancy Grace]

Back to Dr. Thomas Coyne, two things. What does that mean? Stabbed in the carotid and the pupils are blown out. Whoever this is seems to have medical training. What does that mean?

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

Yeah, sure. So the carotid artery is. That is the main artery that supplies blood to our brain. So it travels within our neck, along the lateral sides of our neck. It's where you would feel your pulse. If you put your fingers on your neck. That's the carotid artery, and it's one of the arteries that this certainly could have cut in that area of her neck. And it will pump a high volume of blood out of the body. If cut, the pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost normal neurologic function. I mean, as you can imagine, if those arteries are cut, the blood supply to her brain has been severed. And so within probably less than a minute's time, her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood flow it needs, and therefore, you know, her brain's not being responsive. So her pupils are blown. Her cranial nerves in her brain stem are not working like they should, and those just simply really speak to her dire situation.

[Nancy Grace]

Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Randy, I know you're looking at the video right now. You do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt? The guy's getting rid of his bloody clothes before he steps off the train. That indicates he knows there'll be a problem if he goes out on that platform covered in blood.

[Randy Kessler]

Right. And personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing, right? In normal cases at flight, if you're leaving a scene and trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're trying to hide. That shows you did something wrong. You're trying to get away. In this case, we know he did it. We've got him dead to rights.

[Nancy Grace]

E, double L, N O. I spelled it out for you. That can be used as evidence of guilt, of course.

[Randy Kessler]

But what I'm telling you is, for

[Nancy Grace]

many generations, it was actually a jury charge that the judge would give the jury. Somehow the defense bar got rid of that. But the jury can consider that as evidence of guilt.

[Ron Bateman]

You're right.

[Nancy Grace]

But you don't leave with trying to get rid of his bloody shirt. That's not sentencing.

[Randy Kessler]

No, but you don't. You're right, Nancy, but you don't lead with that. You don't lead with, look, he's covering it up. When you've got a video of him actually stabbing her, you don't need to start with, hey, he was trying to cover it up. You got him dead to rights on the conviction. That's going to go further to wasn't mentally insane. He knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away the insanity defense. Takes away any excuse for why he did this other than, what are you drinking?

[Karen Stark]

What do you mean?

[Nancy Grace]

What are you drinking? Smoking. I was going to leave with guilty conscience. I'm going to leave with that video and the 911 calls. That's the state's strongest evidence. I would go with the video that I'm on, calls and then the witnesses. Every single person sitting in that train car, even though they didn't help. Which they're going to get cross examined on. Yes, that's where I would lead. And then I'd bring on Dr. Thomas Coyne, and then I would bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on Andy Khan, and then I would bring on Susan Hendricks. Just like that. But evidence of guilty conscience, that's the last thing I bring on. But you darn right I'll bring it on.

[Randy Kessler]

Sure, it's piling on and it's icing on the cake. It's extra, but really you don't need it. That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing. Because is there a question that there's any reason why this guy should be given any breaks? No. He knew what he did was wrong. That's what that does for me. It doesn't help. You don't need it for the conviction. I mean, sooner or later it's going to be overkill. You got him dead to rights. He's guilty of the crime. Now what do we do about it? Put him to death because he knew

[Nancy Grace]

he can't help himself.

[Randy Kessler]

I can't.

[Nancy Grace]

Kessler. I love it when defense attorneys start saying it's overkill. Stop. You're piling on. Isn't it true the state has one swing at the ball if there's an ng? Not guilty. Your technical legal phrase, screwed. You have one chance. Why not put on all your evidence? When a defense attorney starts squealing and whining, Overkill. Piling on, that's when I really dig in.

[Randy Kessler]

You can use it, you can add it. But again, it's not my Emphasis. The emphasis is on the act, the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or the video graphic evidence of the killing and the murder of the crime. So that's more important in this case. I'm just saying it's much less important than actually what happened. What happened is terrible. It's on video. He's done, he's convicted. That is. It is overkill. It is extra. Sure, use it, Nancy. Throw it in there. But I would say to the jury, we're going to show you this, but you don't really even need it because you've already got enough to convict him. But just in case there was any doubt.

[Nancy Grace]

You're really not helping the defense right now. You know that, right? You're really not helping the defense.

[Randy Kessler]

I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.

[Nancy Grace]

I've got something for you, Kessler. All right, you ready?

[Randy Kessler]

I don't know.

[911 Caller]

More.

[Nancy Grace]

91 1. Let's take a listen to the newly released audio.

[911 Caller]

I think she's dead, man. I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire protest got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male dreadlock. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket. A black. His fingers are hanging off his hand.

[Nancy Grace]

Not anymore he doesn't. Let's see that video of him changing clothes.

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This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party. Hosted by America250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark [e-mail] there's

[Karen Stark]

a break in every 26 seconds. In the US most security systems alert you after a break in has already started. That's too late. Simplisafe is changing that. Using advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents identify threats on your property and help deter them. And here's what I love most about it. No long term contracts. And the setup is so easy. The SimpliSafe system was delivered to our door and in just 30 minutes, our home is more secure with monitoring and deterrence plans. Starting around a dollar a day, everyone can enjoy the benefits of SimpliSafe. I want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. That's why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com Nancy I believe in it so much I have given it to two of the LOL's LOL ladies back in my home church in Macon, Georgia. That's half [e-mail] Nancy there really is no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Mazda CX5 Advertiser]

Introducing the all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection. Hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class safety that has your back. More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC.

[Nancy Grace]

Sequences shortened and simulated service opens doors

[Karen Stark]

and at American Military University it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn more at AMU Apus Edu Military open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of American Military University.

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Karen Stark]

Decarlos Brown's lawyer, Daniel Roberts, said the murder suspect has undergone a capacity evaluation and he failed, leading the defense psychiatrist to determine decarlos Brown is unfit to face murder charges. What happened to Irina?

[Nancy Grace]

To Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist, author of down the My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, the 911 caller, another one of them. You know, a lot of the people on the train, which totally is totally reprehensible, they don't even try to help her. They start videoing her dying. What a bunch of ghouls. However. Yeah, go on. And video that. I guess he posted it. Long story short, several people did call 911 and this last call we played describes the defendant. He was standing on the ramp. Now he's on another platform now. Dreadlocks. He's got his hand wrapped in a red jacket because he cut his hand. A black T shirt. He's got a blue jeans, black T shirt, hand wrapped up dreads. We've got him on video changing clothes. And there he goes. Guys, this is newly released video. And there he goes walking off like nothing happened. Susan Hendricks, what's happening in the video right here that we're showing?

[Susan Hendricks]

We're seeing the police move in on this Guy and make the arrest, Nancy. It's so disturbing. I watched that entire video this morning. She was stabbed quickly three times in the neck. And you mentioned it earlier, that look of horror. She's looking down, probably is realizing what is happening to her. She's dying before our very eyes. What you're looking at now is the police move in. And that last 911 call, Nancy, you hear him say no police presence. Where is everyone? He's panicked, too. And I believe she falls over and dies before her very eyes on that video. That is huge. That, of course, is what they'll play in court. But you're looking at the arrest. The video we just saw.

[911 Caller]

I think she. Man, I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire person got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's accused of black male dreadlocks. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black T shirt, because his pain is like, hanging off his hand. He got dreadlocks. He got on blue jeans, a black T shirt, and his hand is wrapped up. He got long drills. No, he got a black T shirt on, the hoodies wrapped around his hand.

[911 Dispatcher]

Okay, there's a lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood, and everybody's pringing that. She got.

[Susan Hendricks]

That's when he got up.

[Mazda CX5 Advertiser]

And he subsequently stabbed her three times.

[911 Dispatcher]

She's on the ground right now. There's people around her. I think they're holding pressure on this really tight. There's a lot of blood.

[Nancy Grace]

We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder, and whether you agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered. Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof and took off and tried to blend in? And he did blend in with all the other students his age. Same thing here. I want you to take a look. As we're playing that 911 call, one of them at the defendant just moseying off. Okay, listen, I think she's dead, man.

[911 Caller]

I think the girl might be dead, man. The fire person's got here, but there's no police presence. And the guy that did it is standing over here on the ramp. Yeah, he's on the other platform. He's a black male, dreadlocks. He got his hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black T shirt because his fingers are hanging off his hand. He got dreadlocks. He got on blue jeans, a black T shirt. His hand is wrapped up. He got long dreads. Is he wearing an orange hoodie? No, he got a black T shirt

[911 Dispatcher]

on,

[911 Caller]

the hoodies wrapped around his hand.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, and what I want you to look at. Let's see the video, please, of him getting off the train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did. Police are swarming the area. He's just, like, walking away. Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from the city scene. Totally chill. Check it out. Just wandering along until the 911 calls that described what he was wearing nail him. He's just blending in. Kessler. He does not want to bring attention to himself by running. His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a hurry to get to the dock in a box? No, because he doesn't want police to see him running.

[Randy Kessler]

Right? And there's two explanations, right? One is he's so clever that he's just trying to blend in, and that's how clever he is. Or he's got some mental issues and he's mentally insane. And he doesn't even realize that what he did was wrong. And certainly in this case, that's got a good, good chance of success, right? This guy is absolutely off the deep end. You see somebody like that, you immediately jump to, why would you do something like that? You've got to have something wrong with you. It's got to go right to a mental insanity defense. That's the only benefit. Otherwise, you're thinking, this is a normal guy who planned that kind of murder, planned to just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He didn't plan to get out of trouble. He just didn't know where he was. You heard later, right? He's got voices going on in his head. He's got some mental issues. That's why he was walking around as if he did nothing, because he was mentally disturbed.

[Nancy Grace]

He's got 14 arrests and just got out of jail in January and immediately did this. You know what, everybody, There he is. There's Kessler. There is the true Kessler coming up with what some would say is a brilliant argument that he had. He walked off because he didn't know he did anything wrong. You use what you got that he didn't plan the incident. Randy Kessler, under the law, isn't it true that intent can be formed in the blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment? As my old judge, Judge Luther Alverson would say, isn't that true? Premeditation does not require A long, drawn out plan, such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months. Isn't that true?

[Randy Kessler]

It is true. And you might have missed another point, which is why did he have a knife on him in the first place? That probably helps the intent or planet. But the truth of the matter is why would he form intent to hurt this person? There's no interaction. You're talking about passion murder, where you see your wife cheating with somebody else or you see something that disturbs you and throws you into a rage.

[Nancy Grace]

That's not his wife cheating.

[Randy Kessler]

What passion? That's my point. There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming. You know the intent because you see something. There was nothing that happened to make him form the intent.

[Nancy Grace]

It's just you've never had a criminal that did the D just because they felt like it. They had an itch and they scratched it. And we always say why, why, why, why Ask why. State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't have to be a why. All I have to know is who did it, did they have intent and am I in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know.

[Randy Kessler]

Right. And the defense will come up with the why. The why is because he's mentally insane. Stop. Hard stop. Dead stop. That's the only explanation that's going to get him any possibility of a defense,

[Nancy Grace]

and very quickly, if that's possible. Randy Kessler, you're used to making long and eloquent arguments to juries and appellate judges, but we just agreed that intent can be formed in literally the blink of an eye. But you were saying he's clearly mentally insane. This is a litmus test. A yes. No. Isn't it true that the rule of insanity. The insanity test is the old MacNaughton rule brought over to the US from Great Britain. And it's one simple. Did the suspect know right from wrong at the time of the incident? I don't care what he says. He heard voices last week or tomorrow. Did he know what he did at the time was wrong? Isn't that the old McNaughton test?

[Randy Kessler]

That's the old McNaughton test, and I think it's very applicable here. Because when at the time he did that, clearly it's going to be easy to argue he did not know that what he was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse, some mental diagnosis, some alternate personality. Something made him do that. Clearly your argument is that he knew what he was.

[Nancy Grace]

Personality. Did you just pull that out of your

[Randy Kessler]

out of my what, Law school books? The bottom line is he did this. And did he know right from wrong at the moment he did it? And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like that must not have known what they were doing. Why else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's not somebody he knew. It's not somebody he hated.

[Nancy Grace]

Why? Why does it matter?

[Randy Kessler]

When you're the defense lawyer, that's what you have.

[Judge Teresa Stokes]

Moments after allegedly stabbing Irina Brown, captured on video nonchalantly walking the platform of the train, police with weapons drawn and up surround the suspected killer, taking him to the ground and taking him into custody. On the train, Brown was described as wearing a hoodie. Now he's wearing a black T shirt with the bloody hoodie wrapped around his hands.

[Nancy Grace]

And here he comes, just walking along cavalierly, calmly. Don't look at me. Nothing to see you. Oops. I guess they got my description. Joining me, an all star panel to make sense of what we know right now, straight out to Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, former undercover narc, former sheriff, and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue Tears, his new book coming out next week. Question to you, Ron Bateman. When you know, when you see the police closing in, very often defendants do not run. They try to blend in like Tyler Robinson did after he allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked with grandpa's long gun and then hit it. See what I mean? That's just an example I'm giving you that everyone is familiar with.

[Ron Bateman]

Yeah. And it really goes to speak to his intent. We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes. And you'll see him if you play the video back, you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He had to think about that. And then I believe when he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a lock blade, it actually closed and cut his finger. And that's why all the blood is dripping out on the floor of the train. But then the further to show his intent, he has the wherewithal. Remember, we're talking about a guy who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which is bull crap. He has the wherewithal to try to conceal his identity. He takes off the hoodie, he wraps his hand in the hoodie. He tries to conceal his identity. He tries to blend in and walk among the patrons. Let's not even talk about all the people on the train that didn't do a thing, that's another topic.

[Nancy Grace]

Not a D a M N thing. Not a thing. In fact, some of them, in addition not doing anything to help arena, they actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm glad you brought up what you did. Ron Bateman, about the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by Brian Kohberger to butcher four innocent Idaho students, this is a folding blade used in the murder of arena to Randy Kessler. Uh. Oh. Where's Kessler? Don't see him. Let's see him. Kessler, go ahead and get your Kleenex. Because many people would argue 1, 2 seconds don't matter, but they do under the law, the time it takes. And you can see it on video, him fidgeting around, digging in his pockets to get the knife. Then he unfolds the knife and positions it. That buys me about five more stuff seconds to form intent. Wah wah. Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

Yeah, well, I don't know what you're gonna do, and I don't know what you want me to do with that. He opened the knife and he did something with it. But did he know what he was doing? Did he know that he was act. Did he think it was him? His argument's gonna be some other personality took over.

[Nancy Grace]

Did he think it was him? Wait, what?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes. Listen to the videos. Listen to the audio.

[Nancy Grace]

Did he think it was who?

[Randy Kessler]

He did not think it was himself. He thought it was somebody else in his body, somebody else making him do this. He was obviously mentally disturbed. He didn't form the intent. Something in his brain went wrong and made him do that. That's the mental insanity defense that he's going to have to use. I don't know what else he has

[Nancy Grace]

in the last hours. Newly obtained 911 audio and video. Now, this is video from the public transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because many of the train riders, the patrons, instead of trying to help, Irena, started videoing her as she d. Let's see, 38, showing arena getting onto the train and taking her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs, new to the US Seeking a better life, according to her family. And God bless her soul, look who is sitting behind her. And he's staring at her right now like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on, looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of the defendant. Let's move to 39. I want you to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is what we call time to form intent. Fidgeting with the knife. And we're stopping it right there. We don't need to see the next frame. See it again. Time right there. Under the law to form intent. She comes and sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it, unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move to 40. This video showing a close up of the defendant's hands, that's Arena's hat. Look, if that's not intent, that is intent. What do you have to say to that? Keep on the video, Kessler. Look at that. I'm totally going to slow mo that for the jury.

[Randy Kessler]

So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing, right? You can tell me all day long that it's not just about sentencing. You're going to get a conviction. But what made him do that? You say the why doesn't matter. Juries always want to know why. And you know what? If there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going to matter. And that's going to be the only thing he has, if he goes to trial to argue is that he was out of his mind, he did not know what he was doing, he was being controlled, possessed, whatever it is, because you're right. Otherwise, you've got the intent, you've got the conviction. If he doesn't use a malice.

[Nancy Grace]

I wonder if he was, quote, possessed all the other 14 times that he committed a crime, some of them violent. This is not age progression, people. This is just a few of his many arrests. Can I see Kessler? Because I don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up. Kessler, did you actually just say maybe he was possessed? You're going to bring demonic spirits in as a defense? I can't wait. Is that what you just said? I heard it. I can play it back.

[Randy Kessler]

You said I'm using a layperson term. You want me to use the psychological term? Schizophrenic? Somebody, he thought that he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was in his body. Some sort of government device was in his body. He thought something else was going on. He is not owning this act. He did not say, I don't know why I did this. He was saying, look, I don't know what happened, but they need to scan me, they need to investigate me. They need to figure this out. Something was going on in his brain, and we don't understand brains yet. Far enough to understand why this happened. But clearly he did not say I did it and I'm sorry or I can't figure out why I did it. He doesn't seem to have any recollection. So it's a mental health defense. It's clearly mental health defense.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, he has a recollection. I can tell you this. It's the death knell for the defense when a JD starts talking like an md. I just heard you trying to describe the human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations. I am not. Did you hear me talking to Coin? I know that I don't know, but I love you. Theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to special guest joining us, IndyCon. He is director of victim services and advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston. Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murderabilia. People making money off of murder. Andy Khan, how many times have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy Kessler joining us tonight, state he didn't know what he was doing. Well, you know what, he knew what train stopped to get off, didn't he? He needed to take off that bloody shirt and wrap it around his hand. Not just the hurt hand that he, you know, he sliced himself, but to change clothes. He got off that train at the very next stop and tried to walk away. He hit it, Andy.

[Andy Khan]

You know, the video speaks volumes. I mean, there's no if, ands or buts. He knew exactly what he was doing. He tried to cover up. But the real story to me is you had a young lady who fled war torn Ukraine only to end up being murdered in the United States. Now we look at what happened with the defendant. This defendant's got a rap sheet yay long. 14 arrests, been in and out of jail, in and out of prisons, in and out of mental hospitals, and so forth. This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure. This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable. And my position again is we continue to allow repeat offenders right back into our community to do what they do best, and that's commit crimes. This is not just a North Carolina, it's a national issue. In Houston, we've documented over 200 plus people that have been murdered by defendants released on what's called a personal recognition bond, which is what this defendant was recently released on. That is about as disturbing as it gets. And I'm hoping that this will ultimately open up everybody's eyes, not just in North Carolina, but all over the country that the criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization, more murders than any other natural disaster in this country's history.

[America 250 Announcer]

This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum. Experience music, performances from major artists, patriotic tributes and the kickoff to Giddy, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history. It's more than just fireworks. Learn more about this landmark [e-mail] there's

[Karen Stark]

a break in every 26 seconds in the US most security systems alert you after a break in has already started. That's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that. Using advanced AI alerts, SimpliSafe's US based live agents identify threats on your property and help deter them. And here's what I love most about it. No long term contracts and the setup is so easy. The SimpliSafe system was delivered to our door and in just 30 minutes our home is more secure with monitoring and deterrence plans. Starting around a dollar a day, everyone can enjoy the benefits of SimpliSafe. I want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. That's why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com Nancy I believe in it so much I have given it to two of the LOL's little old ladies back in my home church in Macon, Georgia. That's half [e-mail] Nancy There really is no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Mazda CX5 Advertiser]

Introducing the all new Mazda CX5 featuring more connection hey Google, where's the nearest Pilates class safety that has your back? More discovery on the scenic routes, more passion in the details and more control in changing weather. The all new Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. See it in five films at mazdausa.com fivesides Google is a trademark of Google LLC.

[Nancy Grace]

Sequences shortened and simulated service opens doors

[Karen Stark]

and at American Military University it can open doors for the whole family. If you have a loved one who served in the military, you may qualify for reduced tuition. AMU offers flexible online programs designed to fit your schedule so you can keep moving forward wherever life takes you. Learn [e-mail] edu military open doors to the future for you and your family with the help of American Military University

[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

[Karen Stark]

The video of Irina cowering in her Seat with decarlos Brown standing over her, then stabbing her as fellow passengers took out their cell phones to take photos and video what was happening. What else happened on that light rail train the day Irina was murdered.

[Nancy Grace]

Susan Hendricks joining us, investigative journalist. I want to follow up on what Andy Kahn just said. This guy just got out of jail again. Why? Who let him out of jail?

[Susan Hendricks]

Exactly. And it was mentioned the reform laws, they're not working.

[America 250 Announcer]

14.

[Susan Hendricks]

When you put up those mug shots, Nancy, and that's not all of them, you think, how could this guy have gotten out? What was he doing there in the first place? The governor signing a law in her name, Arena's law. But he even says, look, this isn't enough. It's a step in the right direction, but it's clearly not enough. Meaning it will take away some of the power from the judges to make that decision in letting someone who has priors out of prison.

[Nancy Grace]

Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.

[Judge Teresa Stokes]

In September 2022, Brown arrested on assault on a female and injury to property. April 2024, Brown arrested for misusing 911 May 2024. Misusing 911 January 2025. Misusing 911 January 2020. Judge Theresa Stokes released Brown the same day he was arrested on a written promise to appear. Brown did not evaluation. Three weeks later, he is alleged to have killed Irena. If that order was followed, he would have been evaluated weeks before the stabbing. The public defender in his murder charge filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity and Wiggins again ordered he be evaluated. Police have not identified any motive or linked the attack to mental illness in the last hours.

[Nancy Grace]

Newly released 911 audio and video. Let's take a look. This video is showing the defendant calmly waiting to exit the train. He knows exactly what he's doing. Making way for people. And look at everybody walking around. The blood. Yeah, they didn't help her, but they don't want to get their tennis shoes bloody. And there he goes. He knows exactly what's going on around him. He knows when the train door opens that this is his exit. And he's leaving. Arena, by the way, is bleeding out dead right now. To Randy Kessler joining us, this is not only a state case, but a federal case as well. Explain why a special fleet of lawyers have been appointed that are death qualified. What does that mean?

[Randy Kessler]

Because you want to make it appeal. Proof, right? Lawyers that are qualified to take on Death penalty cases, then he can't after the fact say, well, I had ineffective assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to handle a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and the conviction. Straightforward, easy as that.

[Nancy Grace]

The case will get reversed if there is a conviction, if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers are not death qualified. In other words, you have to sit on X number of death penalty cases, either first chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing. It's got to be a fair fight. Now, isn't it true, Susan Hendricks, that he, the suspect, has been sent for evaluation, mental evaluation, to see if he is competent to stand trial?

[Susan Hendricks]

Yes, absolutely. He is and will be evaluated. I was listening to a prison phone call between him and his sister, and he doesn't make any sense. I don't know if that's because he is insane or he's acting like he does have a problem, but I think they will, of course, be brought into court and he will be evaluated, and I think that that's the way the defense will go. But how can you erase these? 14 mug shots in all. And the video. There he is, just like you said, Nancy, planning this out, Opening the knife and doing it. He said to his sister in the jailhouse call that he felt that they wanted him to do it. He didn't do it. He was told to do it. We'll see if that works. I doubt it.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone for incompetency and insanity. Explain, in a nutshell, what is incompetency?

[Randy Kessler]

Well, you have to understand the proceedings. It's not fair. You can't help the lawyer defend you if you're incompetent to stand trial, if you don't understand the proceedings. To get off the hook for murder, you have to have been insane at the time that it happened, that the thing happened. Incompetency is more a question of ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings? You need to be able to help in your own defense. And if you're not able to help in your own defense, then you don't have a trial until you are able to assist in your own defense. Nutshell.

[Nancy Grace]

Kessler, would you agree that competency is being able to assist your lawyers in your defense at your trial? Competent. You are competent to assist your defense attorneys?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. And insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at the time of the incident, the time of Arena's killing. They're two very different things.

[911 Dispatcher]

Right?

[Randy Kessler]

Don't like to agree with you, but yes.

[Nancy Grace]

So first, the lawyer is going to try to get enrolled incompetent. Why? Delay, delay, delay. That's the first and the last rule in the defense playbook.

[Karen Stark]

Why?

[Nancy Grace]

People forget about it. Their memories fade. Witnesses actually die. Important witnesses actually die or move. You can't find them. And the inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young woman can die down. People forget about it. That's why the defense wants a delay. Would you at least agree with that?

[Randy Kessler]

Yes. And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the time of trial than insanity at the time. How do you get inside of his mind at that exact moment? Whereas right now, they can interview him. Now he can have psychologists test him. Now it's easier for a judge to say, I'm going to put off the trial than to say, oh, we're going to let him off the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's an easier thing to argue for the defense counsel and you get a second bite at the apple. If you lose that argument, you still can argue insanity at the time of the murder.

[Nancy Grace]

Right. So if at some point, if he is rehabbed and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity. And there are a host of variations. There's guilty but mentally ill. There's not guilty by reason of insanity. There's guilty but insane. Just a whole variation of what a jury can come back on. Just throw me a few choices, Kessler.

[Randy Kessler]

I mean, you've named them. It really doesn't matter what you call them. And it's state by state. Each state calls them different things. But you're giving the jury options. If there are people on the jury that say there's something wrong with him, I can't find that he is a normal person that just intentionally went after this person and did it. I want to give him some minor little break because he's got mental issues. They'll use one of those other excuses to convict and say he had mental issues. Mental, you know, but you're right. You name three or four of them. They're called a whole bunch of different things depending on which state you're in. But there are other options besides murder one.

[Nancy Grace]

What about Andy Khan?

[Andy Khan]

You know, as much as you want to blame the offender, and obviously he deserves a lot of blame, what happened to this young lady, I blame our criminal justice system even more. They kept knowingly allowing him to re enter society time and time again, only to see him reoffend time and time again. And how on the heck do you justify giving someone a no bond, a cash, no cash bond, and say here, you know, appear in court. That's insane. To actually allow someone with his rap sheet just to walk out of court under the promise that you'll reappear again. This is what's driving our system and why the public has just lost faith, because we keep seeing offenders like him that are recycled all over the time, and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy, but it was so utterly preventable. Preventable. And it's a total systematic failure. And I don't. I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy, but I get sick and tired of naming laws after dead people. And yet now we have a new law named after Irina that hopefully others won't end up with the same fate as she has now become.

[Nancy Grace]

Despite all of this past documented criminal history, when Brown was arrested yet again

[Susan Hendricks]

in January of this past year, a

[Nancy Grace]

Democrat judge who will, I will add, was a supporter, a strong supporter of former Vice President Kamala Harris, released this insane criminal once again without requiring him to pay any bail. He simply had to sign a written promise to return for his court hearing. Think about how crazy it is to ask a career criminal, someone who by definition repeatedly breaks the law, to just sign a written promise and come back again another day.

[Susan Hendricks]

This is madness.

[Nancy Grace]

This monster should have been locked up, and arena should still be alive. From Fox, straight out to Karen Stark, forensic psychologist, renowned TV radio trauma expert. Karen, weigh in.

[Karen Stark]

I have to tell you, Nancy, yes, this guy has been diagnosed, I've heard, with schizophrenia. But I see intent. He knew to have that knife. He fled after he committed that crime. And when her sister said to him, why did you do that? Why did you do that to this innocent person? And he said, she was reading my mind. Which tells me that he has a rationalization that he actually, after the fact, was trying to explain what he did, which means that he knows the difference. He understands he did something, and he wants to come up with some kind of an explanation. So I see intent. I see somebody who knew exactly what he was doing.

[Nancy Grace]

Ron Bateman joining me, former homicide detective, former undercover narc, and author of a series, Silent Blue Tears. You can find him at ronbatemanbooks.com Calm, Ron. The investigators here, much like yourself, have their work cut out for them. They don't have to prove just what happened, that they've got the right guy. Now the state, including investigators, are going to have to prove he knew what he was doing. And that it was wrong. Ron, how do you go about doing that?

[Ron Bateman]

Well, you know, you got to ask the question which is really obvious. If he didn't know what he, that what he was doing was wrong, then why did he leave his seat? If he was completely schizophrenic and didn't know what was going on, what he did was right. He would have stayed put. But we know, we've already talked about it, he did all those things. He tried to conceal his identity and tried to blend into the crowd and blah blah, blah, try to cover his hand up and all that. But I got to make one point that the community is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear Nancy, but I do. What the hell is wrong with the media by keep repeatedly showing these. This murder over and over again. Thank God your staff didn't do it. Today we saw Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen this poor girl stabbed a thousand times. Are we so desensitized that we have totally thrown away the victim's dignity and respect? Her parents probably most likely saw this and didn't learn about it in private like they should have. This is really despicable that the media released this video. Now you can release stills of the suspect so we can find them good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department, you know, I don't know if it was a PIA that went out, a Public Information act request, but they released it and they didn't give it any thought. And it was just for a God darn soundbite and that's bullcrap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just, just off the charts.

[Nancy Grace]

Andy Khan, he's right.

[Andy Khan]

We are caring more about defendants rights than we are about victims rights. And we repeatedly see this with crime scene photos being sold online, videos being made of victims that are murdered and she deserves better. But again, I'm going to close with this. The defendant fair share of the blame. But this is a total systematic failure. It never should have happened. You cannot continue to continue to recycle offenders over and over again and expect a better outcome. She paid the ultimate price. The only question is how many more are going to pay the price under the guise of criminal justice reform that it's taken its toll on all our citizens throughout the country. Enough is enough. This has to end.

[Ron Bateman]

Hey, Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah, jump in, please.

[Ron Bateman]

Yeah, what I want to say, you know, we're so. We were so hell bent on showing this video over and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad which by the way I could clear my schedule for that day. Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No, that's. We're not. Because we just care about this little cool sound bite to get some attention, which is horrible. Horrible for the victims.

[Nancy Grace]

And I assume you're referring to the moment that arena was actually stabbed. Dr. Coyne, question to you. Many people want to believe that Irena's death was instantaneous, that she felt nothing. That one moment she's looking at her phone and the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not what happened. Dr. Coyne. She said suffered.

[Dr. Thomas Coyne]

No, I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious, you know, within a minute or just less. But she certainly would have felt that stab wound. And you can see when she looked at her attacker, she certainly would have had that sudden rush of fear and panic, you know, before she passed out.

[Karen Stark]

In a shocking turn of events, decarlos Brown, the suspect set to go to trial in Irina Zarutska's murder, has now been deemed incompetent. Yes, the man accused of fatally stabbing a 23 year old young woman has been determined to be mentally incompetent. As you know, Brown indicted on murder one in Mecklenburg County Superior Court back in September. Also, a federal grand jury separately indicted him on charges of violence against a mass transportation system, resulting in death deemed incompetent. We wait as justice unfolds.

[Nancy Grace]

Nancy Grace Crime Stories Signing off. Goodbye friends.

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[Nancy Grace]

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