VANISHED IN MONTANA: ASHLEY HEAVYRUNNER'S FAMILY DESPERATE PLEA

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: VANISHED IN MONTANA: ASHLEY HEAVYRUNNER'S FAMILY DESPERATE PLEA
Date: April 3, 2026

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Main Theme:

This episode spotlights the disappearance of Ashley Loring Heavy Runner, a 20-year-old college student who vanished from the Blackfeet Reservation in Browning, Montana in June 2017. Nancy Grace assembles an expert panel—including Ashley’s sister Kimberly Loring Heavy Runner, private investigator Brian Fitzgibbons, journalist Payne Lindsay, and reporter Dave Mack—to break down the case, voice frustrations over the lack of progress and jurisdictional hurdles, and shine a light on the family's ongoing struggle for answers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Timeline of Ashley’s Disappearance

• Last Seen: Ashley left her mother Loxi’s home to attend a party in Browning, MT on June 5th [03:54].
  • She was last seen on video at the party, appearing normal and sitting on a couch playing pool [12:03].
  • Kimberly (her sister) was out of the country and communicated with Ashley via Facebook Messenger that night [03:15].
• Aftermath: Kimberly realized Ashley was missing upon returning from Morocco on June 8th; Ashley had stopped communicating online—uncharacteristic, but initially not alarming due to her habit of losing phones [14:05].
• Initial Search: First family search initiated on June 25th after a tip Ashley was seen running from a blue Monte Carlo on Highway 89 toward Divide Mountain [15:08].

2. Jurisdictional Barriers on Tribal Land

• Blackfeet Law Enforcement Services (tribal police) have sole jurisdiction on the reservation, limiting intervention by outside law enforcement and preventing federal or state agencies from conducting searches or accessing information (e.g., FOIA requests are not honored) [05:41, 06:19].
• Resulted in delays, lack of transparency, and a sense of helplessness for Ashley’s family [06:19].

3. Conflicting Accounts and Witness Testimonies

• The Party Host’s Shifting Story:
  • The host—described as a man who has a reputation for hosting rowdy parties and posting humiliating videos—initially denied seeing Ashley, later admitted she attended, but claimed party footage was deleted; contradictory stories have persisted [08:03, 10:42].
  • Kimberly: “They lied about the party from the very beginning” [08:55]. Brian Fitzgibbons: “This is a major inconsistency that, that should and ought to be looked into” [11:30].
• Existence of Party Video:
  • Video confirming Ashley’s presence has been seen by family members but not released publicly; doubts about why footage was not shared when other party videos frequently are [12:03–12:53].
• Possible Sightings After Party:
  • Tips place Ashley running from a blue Monte Carlo near Divide Mountain, but details and credibility remain murky [15:08].
  • Multiple alleged sightings and rumors of altercations or violence in the hours after her disappearance [20:47].

4. Individuals of Interest & Theories

• Sam McDonald:
  • 55-year-old man who claims Ashley stayed at his cabin for up to six days after the party and mysteriously disappeared after he “fell asleep” [16:15–17:33, 23:41].
  • Payne Lindsay: “On the surface, Sam’s story sounds like total bs, but...based on the timeline and other witnesses, her story doesn’t end there...the answer lies beyond Sam himself” [23:41].
  • Kimberly disagrees: “No, I don’t believe that she ever left Sam’s cabin” [24:57].
• Tashina T. Running Crane (‘Tichina’):
  • Cousin of Ashley, rumored online to be involved; she denies it. Payne Lindsay believes she may know more than she’s letting on [35:05–35:57].
  • Kimberly: “I don’t believe my cousin Tichina’s story...because of her lifestyle...[her initial reaction] really broke my heart…it really just sealed the deal that my cousin had something to do with Ashley’s disappearance” [38:55].
• Additional Players:
  • Several individuals present at the party, reportedly with extensive criminal records; their inconsistent and evasive accounts have raised further suspicion [29:15, 40:27].

5. Law Enforcement Response and Frustration

• Tribal police and, later, the FBI have been criticized for lack of urgency and results; FBI only took over after seven months [06:19, 43:46].
• Payne Lindsay and Kimberly have conducted more interviews (over 40) and investigations than any official agency [31:43].
• Kimberly has traveled to Capitol Hill to advocate for Ashley and all missing Native women but remains frustrated: “If they would have taken her serious as a person, because we are important, I believe that my sister would have been here or we would have had closure” [33:07].
• Nancy Grace remarks: “Why is it that Payne Lindsay has done more interviews and more work on this case than law enforcement? Why is that? How much more does sister Kimberly have to endure?” [44:09].

6. Media Coverage and Systemic Issues

• The case has received scant attention despite serious leads and ongoing efforts; both Nancy and Kimberly point out the disparity and speculate that jurisdictional issues and undervalued Native lives play major roles [38:19, 42:32].
• Payne Lindsay: “It’s a bureaucratical mess...But the bottom line is there’s a clean solution. The FBI has the ultimate authority...they just haven’t put their focus here” [43:17].

7. Call to Action and Current Status

• Reward: Payne Lindsay has offered a $50,000 reward for information leading to Ashley’s whereabouts or the truth about her disappearance [44:09].
• Nancy closes by urging listeners to contact authorities (801-579-1400) with tips and reflecting on the persistent lack of answers despite the family’s determined advocacy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Jurisdictional Barriers:
  “Problem with reservations. There is no federal or local law enforcement allowed on. They are beyond our jurisdiction.” – Nancy Grace [04:41]
• On the Party Host’s Story:
  “He said she wasn’t at the party. He lied about the party. He said he didn’t see her, then later says, oh yes, there was a party, but we deleted the video.” – Nancy Grace [09:57]
• Kimberly’s Pain:
  “There’s really no words to how it makes me feel. It’s just extremely difficult. Painful to know that we’ve talked to so many people, but yet we’re still asking where Ashley’s at.” – Kimberly Loring Heavy Runner [32:38]
• On Law Enforcement Inaction:
  “What do I have to do? Stick a keg of dynamite up somebody's rear end to get movement on this?” – Nancy Grace [33:55]
  • Payne Lindsay responds: “That actually might help…It would take literally one weekend for two FBI agents…to just literally go do what cops do and knock on some doors and do some detective work.” [34:09]
• Kimberly at Capitol Hill:
  “If they would have taken her serious as a person, because we are important, I believe that my sister would have been here or we would have had closure.” – Kimberly [33:07]
• On Systemic Disparities:
  “Her life doesn’t matter. And why does everything have to go through the bureau of indian affairs? Any other case, we would be begging the FBI, we would be begging local law enforcement. People will be lying on the courthouse steps screaming for justice. But nothing.” – Nancy Grace [42:32]

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:42 – Ashley’s case introduced; context about life in Montana and the reservation
• 01:40–04:27 – Recap of Ashley’s final days and disappearance; establishing the timeline
• 05:41–06:19 – Discussion of legal barriers and challenges of investigating on tribal land
• 08:03–13:59 – Kimberly describes the night of the party, missing party video, and inconsistencies in witness statements
• 14:05–15:45 – When the family realized Ashley was missing, initial search, and first tip
• 16:15–18:00 – Introduction of Sam McDonald and his controversial account
• 20:00–28:01 – Payne Lindsay’s investigative findings, issues with witnesses, and the murky timeline after Ashley left the party
• 33:07–34:09 – Kimberly’s plea at Capitol Hill, pain and lack of closure
• 38:19–40:27 – Discussion of media coverage, suspicions about Tashina Running Crane, and obstacles with uncooperative witnesses
• 41:12–42:32 – Insight into Ashley’s state of mind before disappearance, possible leads
• 43:17–44:09 – Systemic failures, FBI involvement delayed, appeal for tips and reward offered

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Panel Participants

• Nancy Grace: Host, former prosecutor, veteran TV journalist
• Kimberly Loring Heavy Runner: Ashley’s devoted sister and family advocate
• Dave Mack: Investigative reporter, Crime Stories
• Brian Fitzgibbons: Director of Operations, USPA Nationwide Security
• Payne Lindsay: Host/Producer of “Up and Vanished,” investigative podcaster

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Conclusion

The disappearance of Ashley Loring Heavy Runner remains unsolved, mired in conflicting witness accounts, limited law enforcement involvement due to tribal sovereignty, and entwined with broader issues of media neglect for cases involving indigenous women. Nancy Grace and her panel urge public attention, renewed law enforcement focus, and continued advocacy by those like Kimberly—who refuses to let her sister’s story fade away.

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If you have any information about Ashley’s disappearance:
Contact: 801-579-1400
Reward: $50,000 offered by Payne Lindsay

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Transcript

[A]

This is an I heart podcast, Guaranteed human crime stories with Nancy Grace. Vanished in Montana. Beautiful Ashley Loring, Heavy Runner family makes a desperate plea tonight. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[B]

Ashley Heavy Runner is a bright, funny student preparing for a better future until

[A]

one day she vanishes in Browning, Montana

[B]

and is never heard from again.

[A]

I always think of Montana as this beautiful oasis, really with mountains and prairies, mountains, wildlife. I don't think of it as high crime. I want to go to Montana. I want to hike in Montana. I want to breathe in the fresh air of Montana. I don't want to investigate a missing person's case in Montana. That's like somebody goes missing at Disneyland. It just doesn't compute. But yet it happened. Joining us in all star panel, including a special guest, Kimberly Loring, Heavy Runner. This is Ashley's sister. But before I go to Ms. Kimberly, straight to Dave Mack, crime stories investigative reporter. Dave, just explain to everyone what we know of how sister Ashley seemingly disappeared.

[C]

Well, what we know, Nancy, is that Ashley leaves her mother's house to party with friends at home. She's actually videotaped this 20 year old college student videotaped at the party. So sitting on a couch just like anybody else. But it's that night. That's the last time we have any videotape of her, any pictures of her. Because Ashley leaves the party with someone and vanishes. We don't see her again.

[A]

And it's really interesting that Ashley had planned to leave the reservation and start out fresh with her sister in Missoula. Isn't that true? She was on the cusp of leaving.

[C]

Yeah, her sister Kimberly was out of out of the country at the time, but they were preparing to get together and move in together. Ashley was excited. Kimberly was excited about the two of them living together. And Ashley had a really good goal plan set up for what she was going to do with college. And beyond that, Nancy. So yeah, this is on the cusp of a young adulthood that is with really good stuff.

[A]

Well, you're telling me she was last seen at a party?

[C]

Yes, with friends.

[A]

Party with friends. Okay, then explain to me about the plans they had. They were planning to start over fresh and that she had returned from a trip and the family didn't hear from her. Now those both can be true. She could have gotten back from a trip and went to a party.

[C]

Kimberly was out of the country when Ashley went missing. Kimberly actually face message Facebook message with Ashley. But Kimberly, the oldest, the Sister. She was out of the country. Ashley was in Browning, Montana, at her mother's house and on the Blackfeet reservation. Ashley was going to a party with friends that night. Kimberly was coming back from Audrey.

[A]

And it was for some reason, I thought that Kimberly was also at the party. Okay, now I understand. Okay. Very slowly, Dave Mac, tell me that fact scenario one more time. I've got to make sure I've got the timeline right.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Ashley is at her home with her mother, with Loxi. And Loxy is the last person that actually sees Ashley before she leaves to go to the party. Loxi is Ashley's mother. Ashley goes to the party, and while she's there, she sends a message via Facebook messenger to her sister, Kimberly. Kimberly is out of the country at the time, but when Kimberly comes back home, they, Ashley and Kimberly have plans to move in together. Ashley is moving in with Kimberly. So that's the timeline for that evening of June 5th. Nancy.

[A]

Okay, so mom's at home on the ranch as she goes to a party with friends. And where was the party, Dave Mack, do we know?

[C]

It was in the largest town on the Blackfeet reservation called Browning.

[A]

Okay. And a problem with anyone that vanishes or goes missing on a reservation. To Brian Fitzgibbons, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. He leads a team of investigators that do nothing but look, locate, and extract missing people around the world. He is a former Marine and Iraqi War vet. Problem with reservations. There is no federal or local law enforcement allowed on. They are beyond our jurisdiction. Every reservation is its own Indian territory, and we don't have any jurisdiction there. The feds can't just go in and go, hey, I want to search your house. I think Ashley was here. Impossible. That would be like the cops running over to Tijuana and bursting down, busting down a door to search for drugs. They don't have jurisdiction to do that. Even if they're right, they still can't do it. Agree? Disagree.

[D]

Yeah. In this case, the Blackfeet Law Enforcement Services is the tribal law enforcement authority that has jurisdiction in Browning and was immediately handling Ashley's case. And I know that the family has reported quite a bit of frustration with the feedback and responsiveness that they got after initial searches for Ashley. Came up blank.

[A]

And it goes so far. Let me also stress this. The Blackfeet Law Enforcement Services denied media requests, like FOIA requests for information, Freedom of Information Act. They don't even have to give that out because they are immune to Freedom of Information act requests. That's U.S. law. And they are their own independent territory. They don't have to give anybody anything. Okay, how is that helping the search for Ashley? She's beautiful, she's brilliant, she's funny. She's last seen at a party. That's where I would start the investigation. Where is the party? Who was at the party? Who are these friends? Did the friends see her leave the party? Remember Natalee Holloway? How could you not remember Natalee Holloway? She goes on senior trip. She's at a casino with all of her friend girls. She leaves with Jorn Vandersloot and the Kalpoe brothers. I think that a drug was put in her drink. Her friends, they're gone, they're separated, and she ends up dead. Did that happen that night? Joining us hopefully with some answers, Ashley's sister, Kimberly Loring. Henry, heavy runner. Ashley, sister Kimberly, thank you for being with us tonight.

[E]

Oh, yes, of course. Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

Well, honestly, the honor is mine. Kimberly. Kimberly, I want you to explain everything you know about the party your sister attended the last night she was seen alive.

[E]

Yes. It was hosted at this gentleman's place that is known to having very, like, really awful parties where they throw cold water on people who are passed out and they post it all over YouTube and people laugh at it. So this was. So this is what type of person this guy is. He's able to share these type of stories. But also, he. He lied to me about the party and said that they didn't. He said that he never seen Ashley at his house. He only seen her with my uncle. And then he did admit there was a party and. But the video was deleted in June. But on another podcast, they stated that it wasn't deleted, but it was deleted in June. So they lied about the party from the very beginning, and then he is seen talking about it.

[A]

Okay, so this is a guy that throws parties, according to Ashley's sister, where people are mocked and it's posted online. Okay, that's not a good look, but it's not a crime. This is what I find significant, Kimberly, if his story has changed, repeat, no one has been named a person of interest. No one has been named a suspect. He may have not wanted to divulge. She was at his home at a party just to stay out of trouble so police wouldn't come question him about it. I've seen that happen a lot. People lie about something tangential or innocent, and then they become a suspect because they lied. Now, just because we don't like him because of his postings doesn't mean he has anything to do with Ashley's disappearance. But Brian Fitzgibbons, let's just add this up, if this is accurate and there may be an innocent explanation which you have to run down and figure out. First of all, he said she wasn't at the party. He lied about the party. According to Kimberly, he said he didn't see her, then later says, oh yes, there was a party, but we deleted the video. The home video then later stated the video still exists and people have actually seen it. I find that disturbing. I'm not calling him out as a suspect or a person of interest, but I find it very disturbing that he wouldn't say, yeah, she was here, I saw her. Maybe I've got it on video. Let me look.

[D]

Yeah, and I'll tell you, Nancy, one of the reasons why I personally and everyone on my team spends quite a bit of time on interviews in missing persons cases of anybody who saw this person around the time that they went missing. The second point is that we spend quite a bit of time going back and asking the same questions again. Sometimes weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years later. What we're looking for there is any inconsistencies. Has their story changed and if so, where did it change? And you know, to, to have this gentleman say there wasn't a party, then there was a party, she was there, she wasn't there. This is a major inconsistency that, that should and ought to be looked into.

[B]

Further.

[A]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Inconsistencies matter when someone goes missing. Even if you think it's a subtle or non critical point, you never know what's going to be important. So. Kimberly Loring, Heavy Runner. This is Ashley's sister. The night of the party, how do you know she was at the party?

[E]

We were, we were told that a family member was able to see the video of her, that she was just sitting on a couch and they were playing pool.

[A]

Did she look distraught or upset in any way?

[E]

No, they said she was just sitting there.

[A]

Was she having a drink?

[E]

I don't, I don't know. They just said that there was just like a flake. It was like a video where they just kind of panned the room. But I've never got to see the video.

[A]

Aha. Do you believe that?

[E]

I believe that they are so openly about sharing their parties. Why not share this one? Why lie about it? Why, why be so open about the mocking but not be open about somebody sitting on a couch?

[A]

That's a really good point, Kimberly. So video exists and your Relatives saw her in the video sitting on the sofa. Was anyone sitting with her, Kimberly?

[E]

Yeah, they said that there was people around, like it was just like a normal. So it didn't seem like it should be alarming at the time. But why delete it if it was just a normal pan of a party?

[A]

Do you know anyone else that was at the party, Kimberly?

[E]

We know. We know the individual who filmed it. He is the cousin of the man, owns a house.

[A]

Have they been questioned by authorities?

[E]

I know that they've been. They've been spoken to. And then that is. The whole problem is that, is that we were working with the tribal law enforcement about her case, and we had suspects from the very beginning, from day one.

[A]

Kimberly Loring, heavy runner. When did you first realize your sister is missing?

[E]

When I returned from Morocco on June 8th. I found it weird that she didn't. She didn't call me. And then the very next day, I remember looking at her Facebook and it said. And I said. And it said, class active 18 hours ago. Which is very odd. But we were told that she was with a family friend. So it was like, okay. And then my mom couldn't. She wasn't able to get a hold of her.

[A]

So is that out of character for Ashley not to be active online for 18 hours?

[E]

Well, sometimes she loses her phone. She loses her phone a lot or she breaks her phone. So it seemed like it was okay, but for just a couple days, you know, and then after, when it turned into a week and then two weeks, and then it was alarming. And then we got a tip. And then her first search was on the 25th of June in the mountains.

[A]

What was the tip?

[E]

The tip was that she was seen running from a vehicle and it was going up towards the mountains on Highway 89, called Divide Divide Mountain.

[A]

And you mentioned Highway 89. Was it still on the reservation?

[E]

Yes, it was on the reservation. It was right on the border of the Glacier National Park.

[A]

Question, what kind of vehicle?

[E]

I believe it was a Monte Carlo Color blue.

[A]

Kimberly, do you believe it was a credible tip? Do you know who gave the tip?

[E]

I was never told who gave the tip, but we were told by Homeland Security on the reason why we're up in the mountain area. They said that they were told that the police were told by somebody that they saw her running and that's why we were searching in that area.

[A]

Then the name Sam McDonald emerges. Listen to McDonald.

[F]

Somebody asked me one time, sam, why. What's wrong with you? Why do you go out with these young girls? Is There something wrong with me? Why would a 20 year old want to go out with a 55 year old? About that time I leaned my chair back. We had been up for days, you know, and just like that, I went to sleep. And when I woke up, she was gone.

[A]

That's my friends at ABC News, Dave Mack, who is Sam McDonald and what does he have to do with Ashley other than claiming he dates her?

[C]

Well, Sam McDonald is in his mid-50s and he claims that he had Ashley with him from the night of the party for the next six days that she was up in his cabin, which is near St. Mary's Lake. Sam McDonald has been very vocal about being with Ashley and that he claims. Sam McDonald claims that he is the person who dropped her off. When he said that, he leaned his chair back. He's claiming that Ashley was texting somebody who was going to come and get her that she referred to as V Dog. Okay, now this V dog, that's where Sam McDonald claims he leaned his chair back and fell asleep. When he woke up 40 minutes later, Ashley was gone.

[A]

Okay, that's quite the coincidence that he didn't wake up when Ashley left. Kimberly Loring, heavy runner. What do you make of that additional fact?

[E]

I find it bogus because on, on another podcast he stated that they woke up that morning and then. And then he stated again that they were up for days and he landed his sit back and went to sleep.

[B]

Her family searches the Blackfeet reservation, finding only what may be the tattered clothing Ashley was last seen wearing. Many who might have valuable information remain silent about what happened to her.

[A]

How can a beautiful young girl, her life in front of her, just vanish into thin air? That day did not happen. Joining us tonight, very special guest. I can't emphasize that enough. This is Ashley's sister, Kimberly Loring, heavy runner, who has taken her battle to find her sister all the way to the U.S. capitol. Has it helped? Not yet. But we're not giving up. Also with us, a face you know very well. Payne Lindsay joining us. Podcast host. That really doesn't say it all. Podcast host because Lindsay goes all over the country trying to solve cases. And do I have to say the two words? Tara Grinstead, because he did so much to crack that case wide open. Host, Executive Producer of Up and Vanished. Payne, thank you for being with us. And Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security I say this every time I introduce to him. He is, as I said, Director Operations. But he leads a team of investigators that go across the world Finding and extracting missing people. He runs that team. He is a former marine and Iraqi war vet. Needless to say, he's seen it all. I want to go straight out. And of course, Dave Mac, crime stories, investigative reporter, straight out to Payne. Lindsay Payne. I don't know why it's so difficult getting answers in this case. Tell me what you have learned so far.

[B]

I mean, Nancy, this isn't a mystery where nothing happened. Something definitively happened to Ashley in a tight window of time around specific people. This case hasn't been empty. It's been quiet. But behind the scenes, Kimberly, myself, no matter what law enforcement is or isn't doing, we're looking at these same suspects, these same persons of interest. And it's only a matter of time, because the secrets they're keeping aren't going to be secret for very long.

[A]

Okay, hold on just a moment. Payne, I want to start at the beginning because you and I and Kimberly know the history of the case. Start at the beginning. Pain, Lindsay.

[B]

The timeline is kind of murky in terms of exactly what hour Ashley may have gone missing. But we have identified key individuals that have bizarre stories surrounding them who were the last people to see her alive. And I've talked to these people in person, and in some way or another, these individuals hold the key to where Ashley is now and what may have actually happened to her. And the bottom line is, you know, I'm an independent journalist, I'm a podcaster. I go and knock on these guys doors, but I can't put cuffs on anybody. And so if law enforcement isn't at least listening to what we're doing or hearing Kimberly out, then we're just stuck in a void here. And so it's time for someone in charge to get up and do some investigative things like make a phone call, re interview somebody. And I think once that starts happening, if it happens at all, this is no longer a big mystery. She was last seen at night walking near a residence on the reservation, reportedly heading toward a specific home where there was a party allegedly had. And in the hours surrounding her disappearance, there were several conflicting accounts about who she was with, where she may have been going, and more importantly, what actually happened next. There were early rumors of an altercation or violence, though nothing really definitively confirmed publicly. But the timeline of her last known movements, though it's not been fully clarified, we have found people that she was with one of those people. I'll refer to his first name. His name is Sam. She spent days with this person, and according to him, he Fell asleep in her car, he fell asleep in his car, and then she vanished. You know, this is not one of those stories that you like to hear. It's either true or it isn't true. This is something that he offered himself. But it goes beyond just Sam. There are other players in this story, and I think her movements extend beyond that moment in the car, and I think the answer lies there.

[A]

So, Payne, question. I want to pick it up with Sam. It's eerily reminiscent of another case you and I have both worked on, Crystal Rogers. Remember, her boyfriend falls asleep with her in the bed next to him, playing games on her phone, and he wakes up, and she's gone. You know, I'm always suspicious when somebody falls asleep and they wake up and the person is just gone. But it has happened, truly has happened in life on a few rare occasions. So you can't count it out. Pain. Can you place her anywhere after being with Sam?

[B]

I can place her with near certainty somewhere else. You know, on the surface, Sam's story sounds like total bs, But I will say I went and knocked on Sam's door, and I talked to him for hours. I talked to him again after that and again after that, and I believe most of his story. I think it's very inconvenient for him. It's not the best excuse if someone goes missing right after you fall asleep. But based on the timeline and other witnesses and other interviews I've conducted, her story doesn't end there. There are other interactions, and she's with other people at different locations. And so I think the answer lies beyond Sam himself, you know, to Kimberly

[A]

Loring, heavy runner, Ashley's sister, who has taken her battle all the way to the White House, all the way to Capitol Hill. Kimberly, I don't necessarily have to believe that Sam is scrubbed in sunshine, but if we can place your sister after being at Sam's cabin, then so be it. Do you believe she was alive after her sojourn at Sam's cabin? Kimberly?

[E]

No, I don't believe that she ever left Sam. Captain.

[A]

So you discount the other witnesses that Payne has spoken with?

[E]

Yes. There's too many inconsistencies with their stories, and they do not match up with the days, the weather. It doesn't make any sense on what they're saying. And they do not match up with Sam's days as well.

[A]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know, Payne, Lindsay, I have faced that many, many times in court where a witness gets a lot right, but there are glaring problems, and they may be problems with the weather, the lighting, the location. But if the general story can be corroborated, you just have to explain to a jury this is why they got the date wrong. I had that a lot in child molestation cases because children don't look at the calendar or the clock the way adults do. You'd have to ask them questions like, was there a Christmas tree up? Had the Easter bunny come? Was it around Halloween? What did you wear as a costume to narrow down a general time? So you have to work with a witnesses frailties and their bad memory. And you have to be able to cull through all of their technical, legal term, pain, Lindsay crap and figure out what's real. Are you paying? Lindsay convinced she was alive after Sam's cabin.

[B]

Well, here's the thing to kind of piggyback off of what Kimberly saying. Yeah. The story of Ashley, her movements beyond Sam are very murky and there's conflicting stories. But I don't think it's as simple as, I mean, the bottom line. She's not at Sam's house now. And so I do believe that other parties, wherever it was, it could have been down, down the street from Sam's where he said he was, or somewhere else. Other parties became involved at a certain point, and that's when something happened. I don't think that there are days that have transpired. And also, just for the sake of clarity here, Sam is not ruled out by any means. This is. His story is being taken with a grain of salt. And just how a police officer might be like, oh, yeah, you know, we're no longer investigating. You don't think for a second that we're not questioning every single word this man says. And you know, Kimberly has a good point. You know, you can go down all these different rabbit holes, but if it always kind of leads back to a certain point in time, then you have to go back there. And so I think that there are other people, like I said earlier, who are involved who at some point had an interaction either with Sam and Ashley or in helping get rid of her. And that's the reality we're looking at here.

[A]

The bottom line too. Brian Fitzgibbons joining us. Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security. This is very similar. And hear me out, because on surface, it's not similar at all to the Ellen Greenberg case. Ellen Greenberg was murdered. She was stabbed many, many times, 10 times in the back. And it was ruled suicide. That said, this case of Ashley, heavy runner, reminds me of the Ellen Greenberg case because there has not been a full and Independent investigation contemporaneously with the disappearance and or death. And it's very hard. It's Humpty Dumpty trying to go back and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. Trying to piece together Ashley's disappearance, like trying to piece together Ellen's murder, it's really hard to do in retrospect. Right. So this is what you do for a living. What would you do now? And remember on Indian reservation where everybody's see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. So what do you do? Fitzgibbons?

[D]

Yeah, you've pointed this out that, you know, Payne Lindsay has done the most exhaustive investigation of anybody related to this case, including, you know, the Blackfeet law enforcement service and the FBI. You know, and going back this amount of time, we need to do exactly what Payne has done. Re interview folks that are connected to this case because you have a number of people who have extensive criminal records associated with the last moments that were aware of Ashley's movements. Those are, you know, circled and highlighted red and yellow need to be looked at here.

[B]

So did you have anything to do with her disappearance?

[F]

No, I fell asleep. That's the only wrong thing I did and I'll probably never forgive myself.

[B]

Do you feel kind of bad about that?

[F]

Yeah. What do you think? You know? Yeah, I feel bad. I don't know what happened there. You know, I feel bad for Kimberly and her grandma.

[A]

That is from Payne Lindsay's up and vanish true crime podcast. He has investigated this extensively, but yet still no action. Who is the mysterious Sam? Let me refresh your recollection.

[F]

Somebody asked me one time, sam, why? What's wrong with you? Why do you go out with these young girls? Is there something wrong with me? Why would a 20 year old want to go out with a 55 year old? About that time, I leaned my chair back. We had been up for days, you know, and just like that, I went to sleep. And when I woke up, she was gone.

[A]

That is the mysterious Sam, who has stated he had nothing to do with Ashley's disappearance and has not been named as the POI person of interest or suspect. That's from our friends at ABC News. Let's circle back to what we do know. How do you piece together a case in this condition? To Payne Lindsay joining us. He is the star and producer of up and Vanished. Payne, how many people have you interviewed

[B]

in this case? I've interviewed dozens, dozens and dozens. I would say probably near 40 I also want to say to his comment earlier, thank you for the kind words, but I. I'd like to say that Kimberly, her has been the biggest investigator in this case outside of myself. She has held the torch in this case in pursuit of justice. And she has been in the weeds just like us. And all the time she lives and breathes this. And so this case is still alive thanks to her, too.

[A]

So with 40 interviews under your belt, all the work that sister Kimberly has done, we still don't have answers. I mean, Kimberly Loring, heavy runner. How does that make you feel?

[E]

There's really no words to how it makes me feel. It's just extremely, just extremely difficult. Painful to know that we've talked to so many people, but yet we're still asking where Ashley's at. It's just very hard.

[A]

Kimberly, as I mentioned to you, has gone all the way to Washington, D.C. begging for help. She spoke on Capitol Hill.

[E]

Listen, if they would have taken her serious as a person, because we are important, I believe that my sister would have been here or we would have had closure.

[D]

This is a fundamental question of how we value some of human life and those who are the most vulnerable, and that you can be a voice for those who don't have a voice here today. And I hope that message is received strongly by our law enforcement, by members of Congress, so that we can conduct investigations and find out what happened to Ashley.

[A]

Big talk, little do. You were hearing Kimberly speaking at an Indian Affairs Committee in Washington.

[E]

And.

[A]

And you were hearing Senator Steve Daines, who said all the right things, but yet nothing happens. Pain. Lindsay, what do I have to do? Stick a keg of dynamite up somebody's rear end to get movement on this?

[B]

That actually might help. You know, here's the thing. It's easier for someone like the FBI to do what exactly What I did, you know, I did it as a citizen and found someone's address and got their number, took a normal flight and drove out to Montana and went to this guy's cabin to interview him. And so it would take literally one weekend for two FBI agents who frequent this area and are also pseudo in charge when it comes to investigations like this to just literally go do what cops do and knock on some doors and do some detective work.

[A]

Enter Tashina T. Running Crane. They said that I killed her. They say that I caught my husband and her. What? Who is they? That's my friends at ABC News. Okay, now I've got a.

[C]

What?

[A]

What is that pain? Who is she that is saying, quote, they Said I killed her. They say I caught my husband in her, but I didn't.

[C]

What?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

That's somebody who is reacting strangely to Facebook comments and just local commentary about her alleged involvement. I've also spoken with with t several times and you know, my read on her specifically is that while she may know a little bit more than she's saying, she seems to be more or less wrapped up in a narrative or close in proximity to something that happened, but isn't the person that we're exactly looking for now that doesn't mean that anyone's.

[A]

So she may know something but she's not responsible. Is that your take?

[B]

Yes. I think people. It's human nature for a lot of people to self preserve even your own character. When it comes to a murder case, which I believe this to be, people are hesitant to give the whole truth. That doesn't mean that they are the killer. But it does mean they may be holding back a piece of information that make them look bad. But that that might be the thing we need to finally piece this together.

[A]

Look, as I always say, and you've heard me say it in court, your witnesses are not going to all be nuns and priests and virgins. You got to take your witness as you find them and don't try to fluff them up in front of the jury. The jury will see straight through that. But yet still no action. We still don't have the definitive answer and a prosecution in the case of missing Ashley. Heavy runner. Now we, we know her sister hasn't given up.

[E]

The last time I talked to Ashley was on June 6th. Ashley was asking me when I was gonna come back from my trip. I was in Africa at the time. The last time she was on Facebook was on June 8. She was seen on June 13. Received several tips that she was hurt that she was murdered and that she was seen running from a vehicle.

[A]

That is from our friends at KRA TV3 and Equity Talks. Okay, Pain I've heard in my own investigation multiple reports she was saying running from a vehicle. What can you tell me about that? True, false. And what are the details?

[B]

I think it comes down to the exact time frame of when people saw this because if it happened before she went to Sam's house and it's kind of irrelevant, but if this is in any way putting her in the timeline after she was with Sam, which was for a couple of days, then it's crucial. But because of that sort of confusion, you have to kind of really get down to the bottom of where this lands in the whole bigger picture here.

[A]

Kimberly Loring, heavy runner, with us. Kimberly, I just happened to see this on X Twitter. That's how I found out about it. It is getting no coverage. I just happened to find out about it and then set off trying to find you to talk about your sister's disappearance. First of all, why is there no coverage of your sister's disappearance? And do you believe Tichina Running Crane's story that she had nothing to do with your sister's disappearance?

[E]

I don't believe my cousin Tichina's story with the disappearance of my sister Ashley, because Tichina was the first person that I reached out to because of her lifestyle. And the reaction that I received when I first reached out to it really broke my heart because it really just sealed the deal that. That my cousin had something to do with. That had everything to do with Ashley's disappearance.

[A]

You at least, at the very least, believe that Running Crane knows more than she's telling?

[E]

Oh, yes, I believe that she has a research. She knows more than what she's saying just because from the very beginning, she was trying to point the finger to people. But as of right now, she's actually pointing the finger at me and saying that I've done something to my sister, which is just. It's crazy.

[A]

Okay, that's ridiculous. And I want to point out again, Tashina T. Running Crane is not a person of interest, not a suspect. And therein lies the problem. Brian Fitzgibbons. The case has not been investigated, so I don't know who's a POI if there is a poi Nothing. Because for some reason, nobody is doing anything to find Ashley. Heavy runner. I'm flummoxed.

[D]

Yeah. And Tashina Running Crane is also associated closely, and I believe at least maybe romantically, was involved. Involved with a person of interest that Sam indicated that Ashley was last seen with or dropped off to meet in the. In that final day that he reported. So, you know, the number of people around this case who have had numerous contacts with law enforcement on unrelated cases makes this very difficult to get a straight story out of them.

[A]

Brian Fitzgibbons, you and I are both concerned about a prior incident. Explain.

[D]

Yeah. Near. Near the time of her disappearance. You know, it's been reported by Payne Lindsay that Ashley returned to her father's house in a state of panic, shutting the blinds, attempting to hide inside his residence, saying that somebody was. Something had happened that she needed to hide from. So, you know that that's another key piece of information to add color to what was happening in those final days.

[A]

So in my mind, that is a definite lead pain. Lindsay, what happened? Do you know?

[B]

I mean, it all comes down to whose car did she get into? Who was she afraid of? The answers are right there. If we can figure that part out. I. I believe that testimony. It just comes down to, you know, whose car did she get into? Where'd she go? Was that Sam? Was that Paul? Was that t. Was that some other third player that took her somewhere else? I don't know. But they haven't come forward and admitted that, and that's problematic. So I think that you're looking at a lead that if we can just track it all the way down, can probably take you to the very end of this entire case.

[A]

You know, Payne, I still do not understand why this case and many other similar cases get no attention. Because she lives on an indian reservation. Her life doesn't matter. And why does everything have to go through the bureau of indian affairs? Any other case, we would be begging the FBI, we would be begging local law enforcement. People will be lying on the courthouse steps screaming for justice. But nothing. Nothing. You, me, a few others at. I don't understand it. Pain, it's like. Doesn't matter. It's like throwing away a paper cup into the trash can.

[B]

I mean, it's a bureaucratical mess when it comes to investigating crimes like this on tribal land like that. But the bottom line is there's a clean solution. The FBI has the ultimate authority, can go in there and do whatever they want. And they do. They just haven't put their focus here. At least that I've seen.

[A]

Well, Dave mack, a crime stories investigative reporter. Payne is right regarding the FBI. Explain.

[C]

The FBI got involved in the case after about six and a half months and they took over the lead. You've got to remember, on that black feet reservation, Nancy, there's only 17 full time law enforcement. It's the state of Delaware. It's the size of the state of Delaware. So the feds did and became the lead on this investigation seven months in.

[A]

If you know or think you know anything about Ashley's disappearance. 801-579-1400 it is amazing to me that Payne Lindsay has done more interviews and more work on this case than law enforcement. Why is that? How much more does sister Kimberly have to endure? Knocking on doors, begging, screaming, crying to get answers in her sister's disappearance? The family may not have money to put up a reward that we see in many cases. But Payne Lindsay has put up a $50,000 reward for information leading to the whereabouts and the truth of what happened to ashley. Heavy runner. $50,000. Tonight, we remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Caleb Mitchell, 24, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind his pregnant wife and a two year old child. American hero Deputy Sheriff Caleb Mitchell. Thank you. Thank you to our guests, especially to Kimberly Loring, Heavy Runner and Brian Fitzgibbons and Payne Lindsay. But thank you for being with us tonight and keeping Ashley's case alive. Nancy Grace signing off. I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.