VIDEO OF NANCY GUTHRIE & KIDNAPPER CLAIM

Summary

Podcast Summary: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: VIDEO OF NANCY GUTHRIE & KIDNAPPER CLAIM

Air Date: June 30, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace focuses on the latest bombshell in the ongoing Nancy Guthrie case: a new email allegedly from someone with direct knowledge of Nancy Guthrie’s kidnappers, claiming to have a video of Guthrie with her main abductor, reportedly on the last day of her life. The supposed informant is demanding one bitcoin—about $58,000—for information purported to include evidence, names, addresses, and details to unlock a “secure” phone containing the crucial video. Nancy Grace gathers a panel of legal, law enforcement, cybersecurity, and psychology experts to dissect the legitimacy and implications of this claim, explore prior ransom communications, and debate the emotional and tactical aspects impacting the Guthrie family, law enforcement strategy, and the ongoing investigation.

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Main Discussion Points & Timeline

1. The "Silver Platter" Claim: A New Ransom Email

• Source: Harvey Levin of TMZ reads the email from the supposed informant.

• Details: The sender claims to have a video of Nancy Guthrie with her main kidnapper, possibly filmed the day she died, and offers detailed personal information about the perpetrators—all allegedly stored on a phone hidden in a secret, but “easy to find” location. A bitcoin payment is demanded for access.

• Quote:

  “He says what it contains is my definition of delivering it on a silver platter. A short video of the main guy with Nancy the day that was probably her last.” – Harvey Levin (04:16)

• Reaction:
  Nancy Grace labels this a “bombshell” but immediately moves to analyze credibility, involving experts for context.
  [03:25-05:38]

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2. Skepticism and Analysis from Experts

• Fraud Concerns:

  • Tony Brusky (Host, Hidden Killers) and Morgan Wright (Cybersecurity, FBI consultant) express doubts about motive and authenticity, with Wright particularly dissecting behavioral red-flags and technical feasibility of such a ransom.

  • Quote:

    “A claim of evidence is not evidence.” – Morgan Wright (08:00)

  • Wright suggests using a third-party escrow for the bitcoin to require delivery of actual evidence before payment—a practical but difficult solution in extortion context.
    [05:38-09:06]

• Complicating Factors:

  • Nancy Grace references Savannah Guthrie’s (Nancy Guthrie’s daughter) televised statements that two earlier ransom notes were likely real, suggesting FBI corroboration.
  • “If she says I think they’re real, she thinks they’re real because that’s what the FBI has told her and given her evidence to believe.” – Nancy Grace (13:35) [09:11-13:35]

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3. Ransom Notes, FBI Coordination, and Emotional Toll

• Psychological Perspective:
  Dr. Rachel Toles, forensic psychologist, discusses the pull of hope and logic for victims’ families—how desire for closure might bias interpretation of ransom communications.

  • Quote:

    “You’re going to latch on to that bone or those bones as if they’re truth and you’re going to lock that into your mind.” – Dr. Rachel Toles (12:01)

• Law Enforcement Tactics:
  Mike Gould (former NYPD, K9), points out the possibility that the FBI and the Guthrie family may be strategically releasing or validating certain information to manipulate or prolong contact with the perpetrator.

  • Quote:

    “…The FBI has to play a game of cat and mouse. So to answer your question…I think it was deliberate. I think it was vetted by the FBI, and they might have a reason for her to say certain things to further the investigation…” – Mike Gould (16:58) [16:02-17:58]

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4. Close Reading of the Latest Letter and Previous Notes

• Linguistic Consistency:
  Experts review the latest email’s language and bitcoin address, noting consistency with previous authenticated communications.

  • Quote:

    “He actually wrote the bitcoin address down and it does match what we saw previously and we’ve never reported that…” – Harvey Levin (15:18)

• Expert Disagreements:

  • Maureen O’Connell (Former FBI): Not convinced all three communications are authentic, posits possible Bureau “cat and mouse” tactics. [21:16-23:49]

• Physical Evidence:
  O’Connell points to convincing, detailed information in the original note about Nancy Guthrie’s Apple Watch and pajamas, which were not likely to be guessed.

  • Quote:

    “…the first note apparently had information in it about the Apple Watch that was very distinct…” – Maureen O’Connell (26:26) [25:29-26:26]

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5. Metadata, Technology, and Suspect Motives

• Why Not Turn Over Video?
  O’Connell argues that if the informant really feared for their life, they could claim the $1.2 million reward with law enforcement protection, not a relatively puny bitcoin payment via the media. [29:22-30:02, 48:46-50:24]

• Metadata Risk:

  • Discussion on digital forensics: any provided screenshot could be traced via metadata (location, device, time), which might explain the informant’s reluctance. [33:28-34:39]

• AI-Generated Communications?:
  Morgan Wright proposes that recent missives could be generated or disguised via AI to mask origin and gender, making handwriting analysis or style-matching more difficult.

  • Quote:

    “We don’t know. It could have been an AI generated one to make it look like a woman.” – Morgan Wright (47:04) [47:04-48:46]

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6. Sheriff Nanos, Law Enforcement Coordination, and Media Strategy

• Local Sheriff Criticized:
  Multiple panelists criticize Sheriff Nanos for “muddying the waters,” making inconsistent public statements, and failing to defer to the FBI and trained public information officers.

  • Quote:

    “He should have stepped away from that podium after five minutes…” – Mike Gould (39:47)

  • O’Connell: “He also said something very interesting… 'the FBI is in charge of the case now.' ... I don't know if he's being told anything.” [37:38-38:58]

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7. The DNA, Physical Evidence, and Forensic Genetic Genealogy

• Prospects for Catching the "Porch Guy":

  • O’Connell and Morgan Wright are optimistic that DNA and surveillance evidence from the Guthrie home may still lead to an identification.
  • Observations about the “porch guy” seen in surveillance video, presence of drool and touch-DNA on objects, use of genetic genealogy, and the importance of evidentiary chain of custody.
    [43:20-45:11]

• Targeted Abduction Theory:

  • Wright rules out a burglary gone wrong, citing the perpetrator’s comfort and preparedness on previous surveillance footage.
  • Quote:

    “There’s nothing to indicate it was anything other than a targeted abduction.” – Morgan Wright (45:11) [45:11-46:46]

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8. Behavioral and Gender Analysis of the Communicant

• Potential Clues in Wording:
  The letter-writer was notably sensitive (“rankled”) to the suggestion they might be female—seen as possibly telling by O’Connell and others.
  • Suggests possible female author or deliberate obfuscation; also, emotional tone in the letters raises further questions. [46:51-50:24]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “A claim of evidence is not evidence.”
  – Morgan Wright (08:00)

• “If she says I think they’re real, she thinks they’re real because that’s what the FBI has told her and given her evidence to believe.”
  – Nancy Grace (13:35)

• “We’re all scratching our heads trying to be logical, but there’s no logic here….The porch guy, he could have been a schizophrenic….”
  – Mike Gould (39:47)
  (Nancy immediately rebuts the idea of a mentally ill transient pulling off such a lengthy, elusive operation)

• “Why is he blabbing? He really needs to take a cue from the FBI and shut his pie hole.”
  – Nancy Grace, on Sheriff Nanos’ public statements (37:38)

• “The Apple watch was in a very interesting place. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been so convincing to law enforcement.”
  – Maureen O’Connell (26:26)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:25 – 05:38: Bombshell claim and initial panel reactions
• 08:00 – 09:06: Fabricated vs. real evidence, escrow idea for bitcoin ransom
• 12:00 – 13:35: Savannah Guthrie’s stance and FBI role
• 16:02 – 17:58: FBI strategy and the potential manipulation of public/family statements
• 26:26 – 29:22: Compelling details from ransom notes, pajamas and Apple watch evidence
• 33:28 – 34:39: Metadata analysis & digital traceability
• 37:38 – 39:27: Local sheriff’s problematic public remarks
• 43:20 – 45:11: Forensic DNA analysis, surveillance, and abduction theory
• 46:51 – 50:24: Gender and authorship analysis of the ransom communicator

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with open questions regarding the authenticity of the new claim of evidence in the Nancy Guthrie abduction. The expert panel remains deeply skeptical, citing inconsistencies, the odd method of ransom (bitcoin vs. massive reward), and the technical hurdles facing investigators and hoaxers alike. Yet, snippets of inside knowledge—about pajamas, Apple Watch, and more—keep the possibility of truth alive. Meanwhile, the panel strongly criticizes the local sheriff for public missteps and reaffirms hope that forensic and electronic evidence—coupled with precision by law enforcement—will bring resolution.

Nancy Grace ends with a reminder of the anonymous tip lines and reward, underscoring both the urgency and the ongoing hope surrounding the search for Nancy Guthrie and real answers in her disappearance.

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Contacts for tips: 800-225-5324 and 520-882-7463 (Reward: Over $1.2 million)

Transcript

[Nancy Grace]

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[Nancy Grace]

No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.

[Morgan Wright]

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight. Video of Nancy Guthrie and her kidnapper.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser / Narrator]

Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.

[Nancy Grace]

This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

[Harvey Levin]

We have received another email from the man who says he knows who Nancy Guthrie's kidnappers are and can lead the FBI to those kidnappers for one bitcoin. So the man writes that he has clearly been following things we've been saying, questioning the FBI, telling us that the person who wrote this might be a female. The person does not say he's a male for sure, but he puts a big question mark there and then also puts a question mark where we say we might be doing a documentary. In this email, which, by the way, we have sent to the FBI, he says that he has video. He has video of Nancy Guthrie with the main kidnapper on what probably would be the last day of her life. That's the way he puts it here. He says what it contains is my definition of delivering it on a silver platter. A short video of the main guy with Nancy the day that was probably

[Nancy Grace]

her last bombshell tonight, does video exist of Nancy Guthrie with her kidnapper in the midst of it states it was, quote, probably her last day. That is our friend Harvey Levin at tmz. This is an astonishing development. Straight out to Tony Brewski joining us, star of Hidden Killers with Tony Brusky. Tony, thank you for being with us tonight. What happened? What do we know?

[Tony Brusky]

We know that Harvey got another letter at tmz. Another. A pattern, though, doesn't always equal promise. And I think that's what we have to take a look at because sometimes predators are out there looking for a payday. Now, that may be the case. It may not be the case. There is certainly a pattern here, and Harvey is definitely taking it seriously, as he should, I think, as anyone should, because we don't know where Nancy is.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay, let's analyze what we know according to the latest missive. In addition to a photo or video of Nancy Guthrie with her kidnapper, the writer claims to have much more Concrete evidence.

[Harvey Levin]

He also says that he has names, addresses, phone numbers of the kidnappers. Now, he says he has that video in a phone, and the phone is turned off. It is in a secure, secret location, but a location easy to find if you know where to look. That's what he says. He doesn't say a safe deposit box, but he says, easy to find if you know where to look. And he says that if he gets a bitcoin, he will deliver, as he puts it on a silver platter, exactly how to get access to this phone, including the password.

[Nancy Grace]

As of tonight, a bitcoin is worth about $58,000. He wants one bitcoin Straight out to Morgan Wright, joining a cybersecurity expert. Former Detective, trained the FBI's CART team on Internet investigations. CEO and founder of national center for Open and Unsolved Cases. And he is a star of crime. Reconstructed. Morgan, thank you for being with us. This is a lot of detail that the writer is sending. Now, here is my question. What do you make of the claim the cell phone containing this photo or video is in a secure location?

[Morgan Wright]

So, Nancy, I don't trust a thing from the second. These are two separate communications. The first two that went to the family, and then everything after I call those parasitic communications, because they've never risen to an evidentiary level that you have immutable proof that what this person is alleging he's got, he can say everything he wants. He can claim. A claim of evidence is not evidence. So, Nancy, the fastest way to do this is simply set up an escrow account. Say, look, find a neutral third party. We'll hold onto the bitcoin. You deliver the phone. We find out it's legit. Boom, you get your bitcoin. Nothing in between. The problem with this, though, Nancy, is every time you keep giving this guy oxygen, he keeps taking it. The reason we don't see people running naked across the fields at soccer games and football games is because encourages more bad behavior. So having trained this, this isn't really a technology issue. This is a behavioral issue. And I used to teach behavior analysis out at nsa. Taught a lot of these same guys about looking for. What do people say? What do they do? I haven't seen anything in this second set of communications that tells me this person is legitimate. He actually has information that is proprietary to the case. Nothing.

[Nancy Grace]

Okay. I typically would agree with what you were saying there, Morgan Wright.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I.

[Nancy Grace]

But for the fact that Savannah Guthrie herself says she believes two of the prior ransom notes were real. Let's hear it from the horse's mouth, the two notes that we received that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real. That's from our friends at Today. You hear Savannah Guthrie stating that two of the missives were real. Now to you, Sydney Silvani joining us, crime Stories, investigative reporter on the case from the very beginning. Savannah clearly states she believes 2 of the ransom notes were real, were legit. What were those two ransom notes that she's convinced were real, Nancy? We now believe it's the notes where they requested a ransom and then came back and apologized and said that Something went wrong. Ms. Guthrie passed away and they buried her with nature. And we put that together from Instagram posts from Savannah Guthrie. The siblings all sat down. They said, we understand, but we still want a chance to celebrate with our mom. And we now take that to mean they understand that she passed away after she had been kidnapped, but they do want a chance to celebrate her life, to have her remains back. We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we will have peace. This is very valuable to us, and we will pay. Straight out to Dr. Rachel Toles, clinical forensic psychologist, author of a brand new book coming out, Inventing the Psychopath. You can find her at doctorracheltolls.com T O L E S Dr. Toles, thank you for being with us tonight. You know, well, I know Savannah from our days long ago at Court tv. She's an amazing person. She's just as kind and considerate as she appears to be on the Today show, I can tell you that. But also, a lot of people don't know she's a trained lawyer and she's very, very smart. Dr. Toles, I find it very difficult to believe that Savannah Guthrie would go rogue and put it out there that she believes two of those missives were real. If the FBI told her not to say that or disagreed with her, I believe that was FBI sanctioned, that they were in lockstep.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

This is such an emotional case. And I think that, yes, while she's incredibly intelligent and she's a lawyer and she's so poised whenever she's on the Today show, even during all of this, she's also human, which basically means if one of the most beloved persons in your life, which for most of us, many of us, we're lucky, is our mother, is just taken and then someone throws you a bone like these ransom notes, certainly at the beginning, when everything is so horrifying and you're just so emotional, going to latch on to that bone or those bones as if they're truth and you're going to lock that into your mind. Like that does feel real. And any human would do that. So you can be incredibly intelligent. In fact, often if you're really intelligent, you also have quite an imagination that allows you to latch on to hope like that.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser / Narrator]

And I.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

And I think that it's possible. Of course, we don't know if these are real, but that would make sense to me why Savannah would say something like, I tend to think they're real because her heart and mind are in that place still.

[Nancy Grace]

Dr. Rachel Toles, I respect you deeply and I very rarely disagree with you. Number one, that was unresponsive to my question. I asked you specifically, do you believe Savannah Guthrie would go rogue and put out a statement that she had not vetted with the FBI?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

I. I don't. I mean, for me, I don't think she would. But she. I mean, what you're saying is she obviously did, so maybe it was vetted by the FBI. I mean.

[Nancy Grace]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying she didn't. I'm saying that Savannah has been with the FBI like this from the get go, as she should be. Okay, yes, there are rumors of disputes between her and Nana's. I don't know anything about that, but I could totally understand it from her vantage point. But Dr. Toles, she's very cautious. She's smart, she's a trained lawyer. She's not going renegade and putting out statements that the FBI hasn't vetted. So my point is, if she says I think they're real, she thinks they're real because that's what the FBI has told her and given her evidence to believe. And I'm setting up to Mike Gould, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the NYPD K9.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser / Narrator]

He is been on the ground in

[Nancy Grace]

Tucson beating the bushes. President of Houndstown Charity. It's all about canines. Hound. H O U N D S Mike. So you've got her stating that 2 of the ransom notes are real. Okay, Now I want you to hear before you give me your answer, I'm setting you up what Harvey Levin says about this latest missive.

[Harvey Levin]

This is clearly the guy who has been sending us these emails because he says that the bitcoin address he gave us before is no longer working. And he actually wrote the bitcoin address down and it does match what we saw previously and we've never reported that he gives a new bitcoin address.

[Mike Gould]

And.

[Harvey Levin]

And he says he wants a bitcoin. And in return, he will basically deliver access to that phone, as he puts it, on a silver platter.

[Nancy Grace]

Needless to say, that's our friend Harvey Levin at tmz.

[SimpliSafe Advertiser / Narrator]

So here you go, Mike.

[Nancy Grace]

You've heard all the experts. If the first two notes were real, and the third note, according to Harvey, refers back to the first bitcoin address and says that address is no longer valid and has the same vernacular jargon speak as the first two, ergo, therefore, this one is real.

[Mike Gould]

I'm not saying I can say with certainty that's true, but if it is, obviously it's a smoking gun. And as far as Nancy's deliberate comments, I do believe that she spoke to the FBI, but that doesn't mean the FBI doesn't have a strategy of misleading the writer of these things. So unfortunately, in all these cases, we don't know truth from fiction.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Mike Gould, I need to understand what you just said. It sounds like double talk. You state that it could be real or it could be FBI strategy to mislead the writer. Okay. If they portray to Savannah that it's real and she believes that it's real, okay, then what are you talking about? You just can't spout something out like that and expect us not to catch it.

[Mike Gould]

Right? So what I was referring to. You asked if her statements were deliberate or spontaneous on her own. So I think she vetted it with the FBI. And if the FBI has a strategy of disclosing information, they keep things very close to their vest. So if a statement by the victim's daughter is going to help in this little game of catch me if you can, it might be helpful. She might say things to help the investigation. It might not just be coming from her heart independently. So, yeah, so these things occur. Right. The FBI has to play a game of cat and mouse. So to answer your question, I hope is. I don't. I think it was deliberate. I think it was vetted by the FBI, and they might have a reason for her to say certain things to further the investigation, to keep these communications coming in, whatever they are.

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[Nancy Grace]

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can enjoy the benefits of SimpliSafe. I want you to experience the same peace of mind we do. That's why I've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now you get 50% off your new system by visiting simplisafe.com Nancy I believe in it so much I've given it to two of the LOL's little old ladies back in my home church in Macon, Georgia. That's half [e-mail] Nancy There really is no safe like SimpliSafe.

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[Nancy Grace]

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now, Maureen o', Connell, former FBI agent, expert in electronic security, president and CEO at moa. That's Maureen o' Connell and associates, past president, Infra, Guard, national and star of Big City crime, Inside the Red Tape. Maureen, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Maureen, I'm not sure sure what Mike Gould just said.

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Okay.

[Nancy Grace]

He said a lot. And all of it could be true. Separately, it was conflicting. So you've got Savannah stating she thinks the first two of the missives were real. Now you've got this third missive, Maureen, and it refers to this earlier Bitcoin account. And it is the same vernacular or jargon. Where I'm going with this is if the first two were real, ergo, therefore, this one is real. Is that making any sense?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yes, you make perfect sense given the information that we were given from Savannah. The hiccup I have, Nancy, is when you watch Savannah deliver that line, everything else, she's looking right at Hoda. She's speaking in a streamlined way. And you're right, she's very smart, she's a lawyer, she's very good on screen, etc. But when she says this one line, if you play it again, you'll see that she says, and the first two letters, she looks off and she says, I believe those are real. So I don't know, does she really believe they're real or. I think what Mr. Gould was saying was there's a chance that all three of those letters are related. But the Bureau may have said to help with the investigation that we think these are real. And we, you know, we want you to continue sending them because we're trying to get you. So it's the catch me if you can line that he was talking to. That's what I think he was referring to. So was she told to do it by the Bureau? Maybe. Probably. I don't know. We don't know because we haven't seen the case file and I haven't seen all the, all the information, you know, the metadata and everything that has to do with these three letters.

[Nancy Grace]

Let's take a Look at exactly what Maureen o' Connell has identified in Savannah's delivery. The two notes that we received, that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real. That's for friends at Today. But Maureen, I know Savannah, or I think I know Savannah, and I don't think she's playing a game. She looks off, like she's thinking about it. Everything she knows, everything she's been told. Then she looks back at Hode and says, I think they're real.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Well, when. When we look at the predatory behavior of people that write these false notes, it's similar to Nancy, have you have. Have you had friends that were taken advantage of by some of those scams, particularly against Elder call? Call them up and say, I've got your son here, and there's a person screaming in the background. I have had clients who are some of the most intelligent people, some who spent their whole lives doing, like, the things that you and I are doing, and they're completely shaken and they believe it. So is it. Is it a matter of her not being smart? No, I would never say that. Is it a matter of the level of emotion and trauma that she's dealing with? Maybe having her say something? I think the possibility is there, but again, we won't know until we get, you know, hopefully we get a trial date soon where we can. This stuff can start coming out in trial and we can really see what they had. Really see. As you know better than anyone as a prosecutor, these are the things that are just going to take us down that railroad track to guilty.

[Nancy Grace]

Maureen o', Connell former FBI agent, president and CEO at moa Maureen, everything you said I completely agree with, but I want to throw in this. You got the FBI, too. This is not just Savannah desperately wishing it to be true, as I would. I want it to be true. My mind will do a backflip, a contortion to make it true. But it's the FBI feeding her, convincing her that those two notes were real. It's not just her in a moment of desperation trying to find her mother. It's not just that wanting it to be true, it's them giving her reason to believe it's true. And where I'm going with this and why I care, the probative value is if they're true, then this one is true. It's not a leap of faith, it's evidence.

[Maureen O'Connell]

I agree with you. And also when you consider that that first note apparently had information in it about the Apple Watch that was very distinct, for example, it wasn't the Apple watch was on our nightstand, where any one of us could say it was probably on our nightstand. That Apple watch was in a very interesting place. Otherwise it wouldn't have been so convincing to law enforcement. So I personally, for whatever reason, I don't believe in these letters. I don't believe in any of them. I don't know why. I just don't believe in them. I think they tend to be performative. I know that these predators, no matter where they are, that are trying to get money from people will pivot and shift and twist and, you know, twist in the wind just trying to get you to believe that they have the information that you want. And with regard to this phone in a secret place with a video on it, then take a screenshot of Nancy being held by a guy and blur out his face. And the other reason I don't believe it is because if this person who has this phone supposedly knows the two offenders, don't you think those two offenders know her or him, whoever, and they're going to kill them? I mean, it just, it doesn't pass the sniff test for me when it comes to, and I'm a logic driven thinker.

[Nancy Grace]

My initial reaction, Maureen, is I'm discounting them, these missives, because ever since I can recall, I have been dealing with liars that will swear under oath and they will look right at you and you can't tell they're lying unless you've got them hooked up to a polygraph. So with all the people coming out of the woodwork trying to take advantage of the Guthrie family, that statistically suggests these aren't true.

[Tony Brusky]

But

[Nancy Grace]

there are other facts, the writer included, such as an exact description of Nancy Guthrie's pajamas the night she went missing. Not just that she was wearing pajamas, but what they looked like.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Right.

[Nancy Grace]

And you know, it's interesting, you know, Maureen, my mom, almost 95, lives with us. Many nights she doesn't want to put on her PJs and she'll go to sleep in what she was wearing. It could be anything that she might go to sleep in night to night. So I just find it really interesting that this person knew a unique location of the Apple watch, the light, the floodlight being askew. That didn't affect me because anyone would know that. But the PJs, the specific design on the PJs, if that is true, lends credibility, doesn't it?

[Maureen O'Connell]

And also, yeah, Nancy, didn't they also say that she left there without her slippers? So she obviously keeps her slippers in the exact same spot. And when she wakes up in the morning, she puts them on and goes out and makes coffee or whatever she does. She's a victim of habit like most of us. So I agree with you. I found that very compelling initially. I just, I mean is there another way for someone to get that type of information? I don't know. Could there have been an email or two between law enforcement that that showed up on the dark web and someone got a hold of it with some of that information? Maybe. I, I don't know.

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[Ashley Akoneti]

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[Nancy Grace]

stories with Nancy Grace Marine Ocean O', Connell, former FBI agent, president and CEO at MOA Maureen, explain in regular English what he's stating the writer about the metadata. The abundance of metadata required to send a screen grab could identify him.

[Maureen O'Connell]

Oftentimes photographs have metadata metadata included in them that allow for location and where it was taken and what time it was taken in, etc. However, I go back to what I said before, that he admits in that call or in that letter he wrote, that the bad guys in fact know who this person is and they're going to come after them. Well, then why wouldn't you send it directly to the family or directly or directly to law enforcement? Why are you sending it to where it's out on the airwaves for everyone to hear? Does that make any sense? No. So there's just too many things that don't make sense. And to me, they they tend to overwhelm the stuff that is compelling. So it's a bit of a conundrum

[Nancy Grace]

from our friends at kttv, back to Tony Bruski joining us, star of Hidden Killers with Tony Bruski. Okay, Tony, jump in.

[Tony Brusky]

Yeah, I think the hidden device to me also does not pass the smell test to me. Just, just think of a device. Think of all the cases where we talk about a digital device and the Pandora's box that this thing opens. So we' supposed to believe there's a digital device, a phone somewhere that not only has the photos in it, but all of the other data that is meta that's in there that's going to tell you so much more. Not just about the photo or the video that they claim is in there, but about where this device has been, who's used it, who it's been around. Maybe this is the silver platter they're talking about. Maybe that's exactly what they mean, that it goes beyond just the photo that this device will lead you to where Nancy has been, where these people have been. I guess that's a possibility, but it seems a little bit too far into the realm of fantasy for me to really put a whole lot of weight on.

[Nancy Grace]

But Tony, the whole thing has been fantastical. It has taken an 84 year old woman out of her home in the middle of the night in a reclusive area. Just the fact that we see the porch guy, we have video of the porch guy, but yet we can't catch him. Much of it is fantastical. Now, Tony Brusky, what do you make of Nanos going on a morning station and refuting it?

[Tony Brusky]

Par for the course really, because you never know what Thanos is going to say and he always has ways of phrasing things that kind of go, oh, well, it doesn't necessarily have the weight that you're trying to give it. I think the FBI has done a number of arrests for false fake ransom notes. I think there's your. He's predicating it. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. Who really knows? The FBI truly does, but they're not gonna reveal that. I do find that fascinating though, because as far as we know out here in the ether as lay people, they've made the one arrest. Is there more people that they've arrested? Is he speaking in general terms of the FBI arresting in other cases for ransom notes? I don't know the answer to that. But it does make you wonder if they are further down that road than we're aware of, of the false random notes or the false ransom notes that have come into media or into other outlets that we just don't have knowledge of.

[Nancy Grace]

Sydney Silvani, I don't know of any other arrest made by the feds or pima county about fake ransom notes, extortions of the Guthrie family other than the one. So I don't know what Nanos is talking about.

[Commercial Announcer]

Neither do.

[Nancy Grace]

That's exactly what I'm thinking. We only heard of that one arrest,

[Commercial Announcer]

so we really don't know where this is coming from.

[Nancy Grace]

You know, it's just muddying the water. Maureen o' Connell For Nanos to go on a morning talk show and say, yeah, I'm not paying any attention to that. Why is he blabbing? He really needs to take a cue from the FBI and shut his pie hole.

[Maureen O'Connell]

I couldn't agree more. He also said something very interesting. Did you notice when he said something along the lines of the FBI is in charge of the case now or something at. At the end of that article? So I was.

[Nancy Grace]

Why is he still talking?

[Maureen O'Connell]

Yeah, why is he still talking? I don't know. Because a lot of what he has said since the beginning of this investigation has been either misleading or he's flip flopped on it over and over. And it, I think it just adds to the frustration of the citizen in his county and the people trying to, you know, bring Nancy home. It's. It's normally, you know as well as I do that when a sheriff or a law enforcement entity gets up on the podium and gives up, you know, speaks of several 15, 20 talking points. You can put your money on any one of those. But unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case here. I don't know if he's confused or he's not being told anything. I really have an answer for that, but it's not making sense to me.

[Harvey Levin]

They had five agents on the phone with our IT team trying to find out a. Who was sending the ransom demand from the kidnappers, which they believed to be authentic, and who was sending these various emails to us saying, I can tell you who they are for a bitcoin and they have not been able to. Able to produce either. And they. And it's not for lack of trying. Whoever is doing this is pretty sophisticated.

[Nancy Grace]

So, Mike Gould joining us, former Nassau county lieutenant, founding member of the NYPD K9 unit, who has been to the area searching on the ground for Ms. Guthrie. You hear him state the FBI believes two of the notes were authentic.

[Mike Gould]

Right. But authentic. Incredible are two. A couple of two things. I don't know if I agree with that. I will say that as the previous guest, I've been critical of Sheriff Nanos from the first 48 hours he's been flapping his gums. My opinion, he's compromised the investigation. I'm not sure he's totally responsible for the whole. Whether it gets. If it's part of the investigation. But he gave up the crime scene. He talks independently to news agents, and so did he give out the fact because he was at the crime scene. So he knows what pajamas Nancy was wearing. He knows all of these facts. One statement, he said there was a lot of blood inside the house. We've never gotten the answer. He should have stepped away from that podium after five minutes. He could have taken credit for being the sheriff, for political aspirations or his ego, and then passed it over to either a district attorney or a professional public information officer. Her, he's none of those things. And so in my mind, that information could come from anywhere. From the very beginning of this investigation. Nancy, I could have wrote the note. I. She has to be found in nature, because that's all that's in Arizona is nature. I believe, unfortunately, sadly, she was deceased within 48 hours of the abduction. So none of this, you know, in law enforcement, we have to use logic and probability, and we're all scratching our heads trying to be logical, but there's no logic here. The porch guy, he could have been a schizophrenic, delusional schizophrenic who thought that was his house he was breaking into. I'm working on a case right now where there's a man woke up, saw his wife in the kitchen. He was in some type of delusion, schizophrenic delusion, and he started to strangle her because she thought he was Hillary Clinton.

[Tony Brusky]

So

[Nancy Grace]

please stop. My ears are bleeding right now. You had me until you said delusional schizophrenic. Because I am telling you that a, quote, delusional schizophrenic could not elude Pima county or the feds or Patel or everyone else who's been looking for this again. And no, this is not a delusional schizophrenic. I'm going to let you go in the corner and think about what you just said. Dr. Rachel Toles, what is a delusional schizophrenic?

[Dr. Rachel Toles]

Well, it's somebody who suffers from a mental illness called schizophrenia who has certain delusions or hallucinations. But delusions meaning. So hallucinations would be, I think, what he was referring to, like Hillary Clinton instead of the wife. That's kind of a visual hallucination, and a delusion is more of a mental delusion, like the way you're thinking about Something that isn't real. But. So I guess I hope that answers your question.

[Nancy Grace]

I doubt a delusional schizophrenic could lead the FBI on a wild goose chase for this long.

[Harvey Levin]

He says in this email that he is not, as he puts it, I am not the idiot who recently called in a tip about her burial site in Mexico. He goes on to say, only two are directly involved and I doubt they would be the one, the ones calling to snitch on themselves. So he has said to us before that there were multiple kidnappers and there was a main kidnapper, but definitely plural kidnappers. He has said that before.

[Nancy Grace]

From our friend Harvey Levin at tmz, back to Maureen o'. Connell. Maureen, you believe we are closer to catching the porch guy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Why?

[Maureen O'Connell]

I do for a number of reasons, Nancy. First of all, I just have such great faith in local, state and federal law enforcement. I know the heart of the people working this case. But also my main thought is an evidentiary one in that he had that bite light in his mouth and he was wearing gloves. And you saw him bring his hand up to his mouth at one point and then touch the frame of the camera. He was playing with the doorknob. There had to be transfer DNA on that. Also when he went in the house and he was in there for 41 minutes. That bite light, if you have a light in your mouth. And as odd as it sounds, law enforcement will often conduct raids or when we break in or when we do warrants, we'll have sometimes a flashlight in our mouth when we're looking or searching for something. And whenever you put even the smallest flashlight in your mouth, you just drool like you can't believe. So I'm just, I just can't believe that there isn't some good DNA in there. They may not have a match to it, but they could very well be doing forensic genetic genealogy to get to the bottom of who this person is, where this person is, or where they're from. And, and, and getting much, much closer

[Nancy Grace]

when we are talking about DNA genetic genealogy, out to Morgan Wright. Joining us, cybersecurity expert and former detective host of crime reconstructed Morgan. She is referring to correctly. DNA, we believe was found at Nancy Guthrie's home. What else could lead us to the perp? Many, including Maureen o', Connell, believe that we are very close to catching the porch guy.

[Morgan Wright]

Yeah, you know, DNA is one aspect and you have to, but you have to be careful. Remember, the crime scene was closed for two days, opened and then shut down again. So there's this theory called low cards transfer theory. Gets right directly into evidence what was brought into the scene and more importantly what was taken out of it. So the hair. We haven't established provenance of the hair yet. So DNA can lead you so far. The other thing that's going to lead you is this gets into more things around intelligence work. It's signals analysis. It's looking for behavior of phones like in the Kohlberger case. Do we have devices that were turned on and then turned off going into the area? Do we have a pattern of activity that indicates pre reconnaissance behavior which we saw back on January. Nancy, the one thing missing and a lot of people didn't talk about. I mentioned this way back in March there was a people were saying was the burglary gone wrong. My working hypothesis now it was a targeted abduction for one main fact. The porch guy, the intruder is very comfortable in his behavior, in his tradecraft standing in front of that camera. He knows it because he was there in January. He knows it because he spent a lot of time in that portico out there. The reason the camera was removed was not to disguise him, it was to disguise the car because the blood trail stops at the edge of the driveway. Nancy was put into a vehicle. Vehicle. So everything I've seen here indicates there's nothing to indicate that it was anything other than a targeted abduction. There's nothing to indicate that it was a burglary gone wrong. So you're going to get signals. You may get some forensic evidence inside but any competent defense attorney, even semi competent, is going to take them to task because of the time between the crime scene being closed, then being opened up again and then being closed again. And you know from your days and I know from mine, that introduces an entire element of reasonable doubt into any evidence you might find inside that house.

[Nancy Grace]

Curious about the author of the last missive Rankling at the suggestion a woman wrote the missive. What do you make of that, Morgan?

[Morgan Wright]

I don't know. Sometimes in investigations you just have to say I don't know if it is a woman. You know, you'd have to look at it from a behavioral standpoint, a writing standpoint where there are words, where there are phrases, turn of phrases that are consistent with those being used by women. Look, you were talking about it earlier. There's two sets of communications here. The original ones, the first two that Savannah believes, she tends to believe they're authentic. But I tend to think that you've got. And I used to, like I said, I trained these guys. I'VE worked with these guys and girls. You can, from a behavioral standpoint and a writing standpoint, you can start determining sex, origin, education, maybe region of the country. So it'd be very interesting to see if these were written directly or if they were generated by AI. A lot of people are disguising where they're coming from. A lot of scams are using AI now, so you don't get the spelling errors. It looks very professional. So I don't think we've even gone down that road yet to see how many of these were potentially generative AI versus directly written by the offenders or somebody with knowledge. So let's put this in perspective. Somebody's been able to send communications that the FBI has not been able to track back. And they track back terrorists, they track back fugitives all the time. They're able to set up a bitcoin wallet, a bitcoin address, but yet this person is not smart enough to strip the data out of a screenshot and send it. See, those things don't make sense. Those things. Well, I should say not make sense. Those are contradictory to each other. It is extremely elementary to strip data, what they call exif. Exif data off of a picture, email it in one of those anonymous remailers that they're using, and not have any way to track it back. That is grade school kind of stuff. So that's why I don't buy the store.

[Nancy Grace]

Maureen o', Connell, the author of the Last Missive, rankled at the idea he was a female. I find that probative.

[Maureen O'Connell]

I do, too. And I'm one of the people that, from the beginning, when I first saw that said, I think this was written by a female for the reasons that you outlined earlier, but also because it seemed like that it was trying to console the family members of Nancy. It was designed to lessen their own culpability, which. Which doesn't lessen any culpability in my eyes or yours, I'm sure. So I just felt that those are traditionally more feminine characteristics. But again, I agree with Morgan Wright. We don't know. It could have been an AI generated one to make it look like a woman. However, why would you even send that? Why would you even send that if you were just trying to convince yourself that, you know, convince people that you're female? But also, Nancy, if you. If you think about it, how many cases are solved by a. By a partner that is scorned? You know, so if this is a. Is a female that they broke up with or she was there when Some of this stuff happened then and she feels bad about it now. She's trying to say this to the family. I still don't buy it, but. But I can't say it didn't happen because I don't have enough information. It also makes no sense for this person to ask for one bitcoin and do it on a public platform like TMZ when they could go straight to the FBI and say, I have this information, I need protection. I'm in fear for my life and I want the $1.2 million because I wasn't involved in the actual abduction and murder of Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

If you know or think you know anything about Mrs. Guthrie's disappearance, dial 800-225-5324 if you wish to remain anonymous. 520-882-7463. There is a 1.2 plus million dollar reward on the table, which is another issue regarding this missive. Wanting $58,000 worth worth of Bitcoin, why not go for the 1.2 million? We remember tonight, an American hero, Officer Kevin Apple. Pea ridge Police Department, Arkansas. Killed in the line of duty after 23 years, leaving behind his grieving mother Deline. American hero, Officer Kevin Apple. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Night, Nancy Gray signing off, but I'll see you tomorrow night and until then, good night friend.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for selecting celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

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[Ashley Akoneti]

is Ashley from the Ben and Ashley I almost Famous podcast. You know what's become a literal nightmare lately? International travel. Why sit on a plane for 14 hours to get to Lake Como when you could be having the time of your life at Caesars Republic in beautiful Lake Tahoe. Caesars Republic, Lake Tahoe has it all. Incredible dining, amazing entertainment, gaming, fun on the lake and more. And it's right in your backyard. Caesars Republic, Lake Tahoe Book today.

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[Maureen O'Connell]

So good.

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[Nancy Grace]

No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.

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[Maureen O'Connell]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Nancy Grace]

Rock, paper, scissors.

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[Nancy Grace]

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