Podcast Host / Narrator (2:57)

Well, that's a lot of content, a lot of information to digest. That's from our friends at 48 Hours and ET Entertainment Tonight. Okay, let's take that one thing at a time. When you're trying a case, you do not want to mix up your evidence in front of that jury. A thousand le. Law enforcement on the case of Elizabeth Short. They said nude, bisected at the waist. The bottom half of her body posed obscenely. I guess that means with her legs apart.

Nancy Grace (3:34)

Her.

Podcast Host / Narrator (3:35)

Her body had torture Marks her mouth cut ear to ear in a hideous grin a la the Joker in the Batman series is called a Glasgow Smile. That is when the victim's face has been cut from the edges of the mouth up toward the ears to make a permanent smile. Who would do that? And then we hear Steve Hodel of retired LAPD stand state that the killer of Elizabeth Short, AKA Black Dahlia, was not a meat cutter, not a butcher, but a skilled professional surgeon. Joining me, an all star panel. What does Elizabeth Short's murder and bisection have to do with the Zodiac killer years later? Are they one in the same? Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joining us, professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a hit podcast series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. First of all, you and I seen a fair many dismemberment bisection. That's a whole nother can of worms. JO SCOTT Morgan, Bisection. Explain it.

Joseph Scott Morgan (4:54)

Yeah, we're not cutting in the vertical plane. We're cutting in the horizontal plane, which means across the body. If you just think about where your umbilicus is, your navel cut inferior to that area all the way across the body. The interesting thing about the incision, that particular incision, Nancy, is that the margins are what are referred to. And this is the reason Hodel is making this comment. The margins are very neat and clean. So this gives you an indication that this wasn't a standard butchery type of event. This is something that would have taken time. It would have taken a certain amount of skills. And also, going back to dismemberment, Nancy, these cases that we've seen both in practice and in covering in the news, it requires privacy. It requires a location that you can go to where no one else is going to see you. And it takes time. So you have to have time with the body alone. And the body has been prepped here. We have to think about that. There were reports where they were talking about that her body had actually been cleaned, Nancy washed down those sorts of things. And even in one bit that I read at some point in time, part of her bowels were actually tucked beneath the body. So this is somebody that not only felt comfortable in a private space with her doing this to her, but also out there at that scene and laying her out, I guess, in the early morning hours where you could run the risk of being caught or being seen out there. This person had no compunction about this.

Podcast Host / Narrator (6:26)

Well, you know what, Jo Scott Morgan, the way that Elizabeth Short was murdered and Bisected is even more intricate.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (6:40)

Listen, the crime is extremely personal. Elizabeth's organs removed, her body drained of blood before she's moved to the lot where she's discovered. The heinous nature of the crime leads to floods of vague tips that leave officers wading through suspects. A grand jury hears evidence regarding more than 20 possible perps, but never indicts.

Podcast Host / Narrator (7:00)

Before I go to our expert on the connection, the perceived connection between Black Dahlia, Elizabeth Short's murder and bisection and the Zodiac killer. That would be Alex Baber. Joining us, director at Cold Case Consultants of America, Joe Scott. I'm sure that, that you must have seen Dexter, for Pete's sake. And one of his arch nemesis. I don't want to spoil it for anybody if you're watching reruns. Was that the Ice Truck Killer was his own bio brother. The Ice Truck Killer was one of the first time the general population had heard about draining a body of its blood before disposing of the body. Black Dahlia, AKA Elizabeth Short, who was bisected, her body had been drained of blood before moved to the lot where she's discovered. What does that tell you? And how in the hay do you drain a body of blood?

Joseph Scott Morgan (8:11)

Well, if you even if you look at there's classic image of from Ed Gein's house where you've got one of his victims has been trussed up and just like you would a deer and the body, that lady's body was actually inverted. So my, my speculation there, there's no way to really drain upside down. Yeah. And so my thought is that the quickest way to do this is to. You have to suspend the body. So let's just say that, that you do this bisection, you would literally have to take the lower torso and suspend it perhaps by the ankles so that you can drain the blood in that. Whereas with the upper torso, you've made this major incision. You can't just count on gravity to gently pull the blood out. You would need to do it as quickly as you possibly could. So perhaps suspend the body by. By the wrist or. And if this is done in a postmortem state, you're not necessarily going to see any contusions on the wrist. Now you might see some kind of abraded areas, but I haven't heard of anything like that. So that's kind of what.

Podcast Host / Narrator (9:21)

Slow down, Jo Scott. You've gone DEFCON 4. What I think he just said, and I'm just a trial lawyer, is that because she was likely already dead at the time she was bisected, that you're not going to see bruising. Once you're already dead, your heart's no longer beating and you don't bruise anymore. So any bruises? If this was done post mortem after death, there would be no bruises. He said abraded. That means maybe an impression was left on the skin.

Joseph Scott Morgan (9:51)

Yes.

Podcast Host / Narrator (9:52)

Let me think. Okay, so if I take this teacup and I sit it right here, after a while, there'll be a mark on my skin. Okay, so that could be left post mortem.

Joseph Scott Morgan (10:02)

Yeah, it's potential. But we can tell the difference between postmortem and antemortement prior to death. But the watchword here, Nancy, in the draining is going to be gravity. So you've got this gravitational pull where, you know, blood is like any other fluid. It's going to seek the lowest point of gravity. So the blood would have to be pulled out and hence drained. And this is something that is commonly done in butchery. You see it everywhere. You know, when bodies are actually embalmed, the fluids are pushed through the body with a pump. I don't think that that's what's happened here. There's no indication that there's any kind of injection sites or anything like that.

Podcast Host / Narrator (10:38)

Let me cut the chase, Joe Scott.

Joseph Scott Morgan (10:39)

Yeah.

Podcast Host / Narrator (10:40)

Baber and others believe that Elizabeth Short, spotty, was bisected and likely drained at a motel. The Zodiac Motel, possibly in the bathroom in the bathtub. I don't see that. I'm not saying Zodiac is not the killer of Elizabeth Short yet, but I'm saying I don't think that could go down in a motel bathtub because you have to suspend the body to drain it of blood. That's where I'm going with this.

Joseph Scott Morgan (11:17)

Yeah, well, it would depend upon how prepared the person was to do this. They could bring something with them, just like they would bring tools. All right, so if this is something that they've planned out in their mind, you know, and here's something curious about the bathtub, and you could not go back and do this now, but, you know, in modern cases like this, I know of at least three off the top of my head that I've covered, where you go into all of these, all of these to the plumbing, and you pull out the drain traps and you can find blood, you can find other tissue. People think that everything gets washed away. And that's not necessarily the case. That's something that would have had to have been done back then. But, yeah, I mean, a bachelor.

Podcast Host / Narrator (11:55)

I don't believe that was done in this case. Joe Scott, and you're absolutely correct. Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, premiering February 11th exclusively on Prime Video. Critics call season one one of the year's best shows, with over 40 million viewers worldwide. And on February 11th, the the story continues with a new season from creator Ben Watkins and based on characters created by James Patterson, cross is Washington, D.C. 's most brilliant homicide detective and forensic psychologist. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy, Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Cross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance. Cross is back and better than ever this season. Get ready for a new case. Higher stakes, but the same cross. Watch season two of Cross new episodes weekly starting February 11th, only on Prime Video Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Angela Arnold. Joining us, renowned psychiatrists at Angela Arnold, MD. Angela, I'm asking you for a forensic reason. I find it hard to believe, and Baber disagrees with me, that the same man that murdered Elizabeth Short so meticulously bisected her like a surgeon. Him is his mo, Modus operandi. Method of operation in that case is entirely different than he wasn't seen. He was never spotted. Even though he put the remains in a neighborhood area for pedestrians to find. Never seen. So how does that jive with the MO of the Zodiac killer, who basically hunts down whoever he can find on Lovers Lane and shoots them dead? He's actually spotted, for Pete's sake. An eyewitness sees him is very haphazard compared to the murder of Elizabeth Short. How could that be the same person? Because I believe Elizabeth Short's killer had to go through this process, this almost religious moment where he kills the woman, he bisects her, he drains her blood. He was. Wipes her body down and cleans it. He poses her in a certain way. He gives her a Glasgow smile. Is that same guy that sneaks up on Lovers, on Lovers Lane, shoots them dead?

Alex Baber (14:55)

I do agree with you, Nancy.

Nancy Grace (14:57)

I.

Cheryl McCollum (14:57)

Since when we look at serial killers, we try to see commonalities in what they do. And these two things are so completely different between the ritual and the haphazardness, between the way this, the way the Dahlia, the Black Dahlia was touched and.

Alex Baber (15:16)

Manipulated and the others were not.

Cheryl McCollum (15:18)

They were stabbed and shot. But that was completely different than the.

Alex Baber (15:21)

Way she was killed.

Podcast Host / Narrator (15:23)

Joining us from the Cold Case Research Institute, Forensic Expert and author of a brand new book, Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. Solving the Cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter, Cheryl. Also the star of a highly popular podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl. The MOS are entirely opposite, however. Think of Ted Bundy. He changed his mos. Boy, did he.

Cheryl McCollum (15:52)

I think what's key for me here are mos can change, but the signatures won't. The underlining intent will not change. So what that killer needed, wanted with these murders, that's what I would be looking at. To me, that's critical is the signature, not the mo.

Podcast Host / Narrator (16:15)

What signature?

Cheryl McCollum (16:17)

Well, for example, with, you know, Zodiac, his signature, he's going to shoot from a distance. He's going to stalk first. He's going to let them know he's there, almost frighten them. He wanted that to happen. He wanted that interaction here. The other killer took great time. He tortured, he sexually assaulted. Those are two different signatures. Baseline.

Podcast Host / Narrator (16:43)

Okay, I agree with you, even though I know mos can vary. One killer can change an mo, however, it's not typical. Usually the killer keeps the same. Joining me now, a renowned trial lawyer from this jurisdiction, you know him well, Is Nima Ramani. Nima Rahmani, former federal prosecutor turned trial attorney, President, West Coast Trial Attorneys Author, Harvard to hashtag Nima. Thank you for being with us. What do you make of the tenuous? Well, some would say tenuous, others say it's clear. Clear it's the same person. What do you make of it, Nima?

Nima Rahmani (17:30)

Well, if you're looking at the evidence and if it's going to come in, whether it's a 404 analysis, prior bad acts, or 1101, which is the evidence code here in California, no judge is going to let this in. It's far too speculative. It's far too tenuous. You got to present cases based on facts and evidence and not just speculation. So I know it's great to talk about it, people love serial killers, but this type of connection will never make it into any courtroom in this country.

Podcast Host / Narrator (17:58)

When you analyze evidence, Nima Rahmani, you and I both brought in similar transactions in front of a jury. For instance, say the Zodiac killing is your case in chief killings or multiple victims, you would try to bring in the Elizabeth Short murder as a similar transaction. What's similar? Other than you've got a dead body?

Nima Rahmani (18:22)

Not a whole lot. And this evidence is very powerful. We see it typically in sexual assault cases, right? Weinstein, Cosby. I mean, really, it really tipped the scales in those cases. So judges are very sensitive to this type of evidence, because you can really dirty up a defendant, it's great for the prosecution, but if you don't have a clear connection, an mo, a pattern, something, and you're relying on what we have here, which frankly, is not enough, it's not going to make it in. Nancy, you and I both know that.

Podcast Host / Narrator (18:54)

Isn't it true, Nima Rahmani, that a jury is told during the jury instructions that they can. They can consider, if they choose to, evidence that occurred before, during and after the murder? Isn't that true?

Nima Rahmani (19:10)

Absolutely they can. But the judge is gate.

Podcast Host / Narrator (19:13)

Well, listen to this. According to Alex Baber, therein lies the rub. What happened after the murders, that is the link between the two. Listen.

Cheryl McCollum (19:27)

James Richardson, the Los Angeles examiner editor, receives a phone call from a man claiming to have killed Short, who promises to send Richardson souvenirs. Three days later, the examiner receives a manila envelope containing Short's birth certificate, the business cards, and an address book with the message, here is Dalia's belongings. Letter to follow. The paper then receives a handwritten note, quote, turning in. Wednesday, January 29, 10am had my fun at Police Black Dahlia Avenger. Police wait at the location the writer specifies, but no one appears to turn themselves in.

Podcast Host / Narrator (20:05)

And now joining us, the man of the hour, Alex Baber. Alex Baber is the director of the Cold Case Consultants of America. And he is the investigative consultant who says he has used AI and his own code breaking skills to crack the Zodiac killer's letter. He also says Zodiac is also the Black Dahlia Avenger. The Killer. Alex Baber, thank you for being with us tonight. Alex, before I get into the evidence in the Black Dahlia Elizabeth Short case, tell me about what happened after the murders. Both killers began taunting the police and the media.

Alex Baber (20:55)

That's correct, Nancy. Thank you for having me. What we discovered was that in both incidents, the perpetrator mailed in multiple letters to multiple newspapers to announce his crime that he committed and to take credit for it. San Francisco has a killer in its midst. He had this black hood on, little slits in the eyes. He goes around killing people by rope, by gun, by knife. And he says, I'm gonna call myself Zodiac.

Podcast Host / Narrator (21:23)

American law enforcement has never seen anything like this. It turned into a public obsession. The TV shows, the books, the movie.

Joseph Scott Morgan (21:31)

I want you to print this cipher on your front page.

Podcast Host / Narrator (21:34)

Zodiac was different. He got away with it. This from Netflix. This is the Zodiac speaking.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (21:44)

The Zodiac killer taunts law enforcement, sending cryptic letters and coded messages to newspapers, daring police to stop him while threatening more violence.

Podcast Host / Narrator (21:57)

Has the Zodiac serial killer case been cracked? And is the Black Dahlia avenger who murdered a young starlet and bisected her body one in the same? Is it the Zodiac killer? Joining me in All Star, Pal, straight out to special guest Rachel Sharp. Joining us, investigative crime reporter for DailyMail.com who got a worldwide exclusive on this case, Rachel Sharp, what do you make of it?

Nancy Grace (22:30)

Well, to me, the evidence is, you know, the case Alex has presented is very compelling. There's a lot of links between the two crimes, connecting. Connecting the suspect, Marvin Margolis, to both cases.

Podcast Host / Narrator (22:46)

Rachel Sharp, you say there are a lot of links between the two. I find the ciphers, the taunting in both cases to be a link. What other link do you think is probative, proves that they're one in the same?

Nancy Grace (23:02)

So a lot of the. A lot of the links between the two, it's a lot of circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence that, you know, through Alex's investigation, he has unearthed, obviously, the big one being the solving of the Z13 cipher. Now, many people have tried to solve that before. Alex has found a solution, and the solution actually points to the name of one of the prime suspects in the Black Dahlia murder. What makes that quite compelling is that that evidence was presented to the chief US Code maker and code breaker for the nsa, Ed Giorgio, and he has verified. So, you know, you have one of the top cipher experts, so saying that they believe that that solution is correct.

Podcast Host / Narrator (23:52)

Rachel Sharp, is there any forensic evidence or any proof at all that Black Dahlia's killer, Elizabeth Short's killer, actually killed her at the Zodiac Motel?

Nancy Grace (24:04)

So at the time, police believed that she was murdered elsewhere because, as mentioned previously, she was found without blood. There was no blood at the crime scene, so they believe that she was killed elsewhere. And the theory that police were searching for was that she was killed in a bathtub, and that was how they, you know, they didn't find this grisly crime scene anywhere else.

Podcast Host / Narrator (24:33)

Okay, so I'm not hearing anything that says she was killed at Zodiac Motel. Do you have any evidence suggesting she was killed at Zodiac Motel? Anything? I mean, you're saying a bathtub? I don't know that. What bathtub? Where is anything? I know, Alex Baber, that there was an eyewitness at the time that stated he saw a male at Zodiac Motel that generally fit the description of your perp, but there was Never a positive I.D. no blood. Is there something else linking him, Margolis, to Zodiac Motel?

Alex Baber (25:08)

Yeah, actually, the account wasn't at the motel itself. What it was is there's three independent eyewitness accounts, three managers of three other motels. That evening on the 14th, where this individual fit in Marol's description and his vehicle parks a block away, goes in, asks for a room with a. With a tub in specific. They say they don't have one. If you. If you mark the hotels and you follow the line, then you have a credible witness at the end, which is a DMV investigator. Her name's Irene Donaldson. She says she sees them coming north east on San Antonio, turning north on Orange. And at that point, she witnesses Elizabeth Short in the back of the vehicle being pinioned by a male figure with two other individuals in the front seat, one being a male driving and the passenger side being a female. If you draw a line from that to the location her bodies was discovered. The only motel in between is the Zodiac Motel, which was just opened in June of 1946, six months prior. And it had specifically a tub, which was not common, according to records in the area at that time. Most of them had showers.

Podcast Host / Narrator (26:11)

Okay, so you have someone generally fitting Margolis description with a woman in the front seat. And the only motel that had a tub in the area was Zodiac. But I don't have anybody placing him or her as Zodiac. I don't have a receipt, nothing like that. But you are triangulating the location and determining that was the only motel with a. With a tub at the time.

Alex Baber (26:36)

Well, we also discovered the fact they found a canvas ice bag just north of where her body was dropped. That canvas ice bag is marked with one letter, which is a red letter Z. Doing our research, we discovered that at that time, the ice trucks that came along usually labeled the canvas ice bags the first initial of the hotel or motel they were dropping off the ice at. And this was again discovered just north of where her body was. And there's documentation on this in the.

Joseph Scott Morgan (27:01)

Reports.

Podcast Host / Narrator (27:04)

The leap from Elizabeth Short, Black Dahlia Avenger Killer, to Zodiac. Okay, I've told you what happened in Black Dahlia. In her murder, her bisection, in her posing, meticulously murdered and her body very, very carefully prepared for a display. Let's analyze what happened with Zodiac.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (27:30)

December 20th. High school students Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday drive to the outskirts of Vallejo and park on a secluded lover's lane. Passing drivers notice the couple around 10:30 and 11pm Minutes later, another driver parks 10ft behind and fires shots at the car. The teens scramble to exit, and David is shot in the head. Betty Lou is shot in the back five times as she flees. The couple is found 10 minutes later, neither surviving. The killer leaves no evidence.

Podcast Host / Narrator (27:59)

But that's not the end. The Zodiac killer goes on.

Nancy Grace (28:04)

Listen.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (28:05)

Six months later, Darlene Farren and Michael Mageau are parked at Blue Rock Springs park when what they think is a cop car pulls up. Michael rolls down the window and is shot in the arm. The bullet hits Darlene in the neck. The attacker shoots the couple twice more each and disappears. Three months after that, Cecilia shepherd and Brian Hartnell are attacked on the beach of Lake Berryessa. Bound and stabbed, Hartnell survives, describing a man in a black hood with a scope symbol on his clothing. The attacker wrote the same symbol on their car door with the message 12, 20, 68, 7, 4, 6, 9. September, 2769, 6:30 by 9th.

Podcast Host / Narrator (28:45)

Wow. Okay, Alex Baber. That's very convincing to me that the same person attacked all of the couples. Did you notice where the dates of those murders were written? On the side of those last victim's car? That the Black Dahlia, Elizabeth Short is not mentioned.

Alex Baber (29:08)

It's not part of the Zodiac moniker at that point. What it is is Elizabeth Short's murder or homicide was personal. Everybody agrees upon that. He stalked her for three months, he found her at the last minute before she left town. He isolates her, he mutilates her, he bisects her, and then he stages her body. The Zodiac taking place some 23 years later has no personal connection at this point. He's older. There are connections between the location. We know Elizabeth Short arrived in Vallejo in 1942 on December 20, the same date as the initial attack. We also know that her father staged his drowning on October 11, 1930, the exact same date that Paul Stein was murdered. There's all these other links that are, that are in there. They're circumstantial, Right? But what we do have is physical evidence supporting our circumstantial evidence and us knowing that Elizabeth had a personal connection to Vallejo. There's over 450 cities and towns in California, and you have these two. And Vallejo is not a very, very well known city outside of the of the Zodiac attacks. Right? It's kind of a mom and pop town, or it used to be at that time. With that being said, if it wasn't personal for him to commit these crimes in Vallejo, why not just go 30 minutes, you know, to the, to the west, and take all of his attacks to San Francisco? So as far as an MO goes, he changes MO within his own MO you start out shooting couples with a firearm and then you change to killing or attacking couples with a bladed weapon and then you isolate an adult male in a cab in an upscale neighborhood. So the whole M.O. things it does, it's not going to stand with most people out there for the fact is, is that other people, like d', Angelo, his MO Evolved the Golden State Killer. You mentioned Bundy. I can give you a list of infamous cases that are very similar, so the signatures even change. But what happens is when somebody evolves, they get older, their signature does change.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (31:03)

The killer keeps his identity hidden, targeting young victims in isolated locations while the public lives in fear, never knowing when or where he may strike next.

Podcast Host / Narrator (31:15)

Interesting, that choice of words that the killer keeps his identity hidden because he was actually spotted by some of the victims wearing a black hoodie, Unabomber style, with a cross in a circle that many people state is a scope, like a gun scope. He was scope spotted. The real similarity is the taunting of the media.

Cheryl McCollum (31:43)

The Vallejo Times, San Francisco Chronicle and San Francisco examiner receive letters taking credit for the killings of David Faraday, Betty Lou Jensen and Darlene Farron. Each copy contains a third of a 408 symbol cryptogram which the writer demands be printed on their front page. Days later, a second letter arrives. The first line, dear Editor, this is the Zodiac speaking. It describes the killings in detail and earns the self proclaimed murderer the title Zodiac Killer. Later letters include more ciphers, information on the murders, including swatches of Paul Stine's shirt and taunts that police have no leads on the Zodiac's identity.

Podcast Host / Narrator (32:23)

That's absolutely the killer. He has swatches of one of the victim's bloody shirt and included it in his letters to the media. Just as Elizabeth Short's the Black Dolly is killer taunted, so is Zodiac. But that by far. Joe Scott Morgan would not be the first killer to taunt media or police. You've got Son of Sam Berkowitz, btk, Dennis Raider. He couldn't stop himself from taunting the Unabomber Tay Kaczynski in his massive manifesto. His brother recognized terms and phrases he would use and turned him in. Gary Ridgway typed a letter and of course Zodiac remains unknown. So many killers have taunted, but what do you see is a connection between the taunting by Zodiac and the taunting by Black Dahlia's killer, if any.

Joseph Scott Morgan (33:29)

Yeah, I don't know that I necessarily see connectivity here. I do find it very, very interesting that the geographical connection, when you begin to think about Vallejo and also if you go back and you look at, at Elizabeth Short's remains, not only were they bisected and certainly abused postmortemly, but you know, she was, she was, she also had stab wounds as well. Nancy, if you go back to the couple at the lake, they had multiple stab wounds. You know, when this, this character comes out of nowhere and is dressed in this weirdo costume, some people described it as almost looking medieval and those stab wounds were there. So I don't it, the problem is I think it's hard to have connectivity from a scientific standpoint. I'm talking about as a forensic scientist here. You know, what are you going to do to go back a few years ago we had this Gary, I think Gary Stewart guy came out and said that, you know, his dad was the serious, was the Zodiac killer. I remember being on a program at some point in time relative to that claimed that there was genetic connectivity in that case. And I've heard other people make this claim before. So for me scientifically I'm going to have to have something, I'm going to need to see something that is scientifically connective here, the tissue here. You know, we can talk about cuts all day long.

Podcast Host / Narrator (35:04)

Yeah, you're right, you're right, I hear you. Not only is there the taunting that is similar, not exactly the same, but there is more. I want you to hear this.

Alex Baber (35:15)

We have identified the individual who committed these crimes. He is probably the smartest criminal to ever live. He had a medical background, he was a USC medical student and he was also a former marine.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (35:26)

Alex Baber, the co founder of Cold Case Consultants of America claims AI helped him definitively solve the Z13 cipher. Baber says the program narrowed down 71 million possible names to 14 based on age, gender and possible experience with World War II code making methods. Due to the methods used in the Z480 and Z340 ciphers, Baber then eliminated 13 of those names with old fashioned detective work, leaving Marvin Merrill as the solution to the cryptogram. Ed Giorgio for former NSA chief code breaker and maker, reviews Baber's work and says the methods are sound.

Podcast Host / Narrator (36:07)

To the man of the hour, Alex Baber, who claims that Zodiac and the Black Dahlia Avenger is one in the same you by cracking that cipher along with help from AI and more, you cracked it. You're saying that it absolutely proves that Marvin Merrill is Zodiac. What did Marvin Merrill have to do with Elizabeth Short?

Alex Baber (36:37)

Okay, so to start out we know that Marvin Margolis was the last known boyfriend Elizabeth Short. According to the files, they lived together for 12 days in October. We know she left October 22 under threat from him. She's on the street. She gets picked up by a guy named Glenn Kearns who gives her a ride. They make an agreement. Glenn returns to apartment 726 that Margolis lived in and gathers her belongings for her. And she does not go. He does it for her. That tells you how scared she is. He then goes on. She goes on a run from him for three months. Gets on a bus, even heads to San Diego where she has no friends, no family, no money, no food. Is discovered in a 24 hour theater called the Aztec by. By the French daughter who takes her in for 30 days with her mom, Vera. She tells them, I'm fearful of my ex Marine boyfriend who's searching for me. That's why I'm down here hiding. And then he finds her because he makes. She makes a phone call and asks for $20 to Mark Hansen. So he shows up at the door, beating on it that night. The next day she has read Manly, take her back to la. So he's stalking her for three months leading up to her murder. And there was no missing week. We identified reports, including one from Officer Merle McBride. The one reported her approaching her in the state of hysteria on the evening of the 14th. She identified Elizabeth Short's body. After she looked at the pictures and confirmed them. She comes back two hours later. She says, I'm not so sure about the identification. You know when. Why is that? Does someone tell her to change her perspective? You can't have a police officer the last individual to see a woman who was just mutilated and murdered. Right? So that being said, she goes and she identifies the body at the coroner's office. That tells you right there that we have the right individual. It is Elizabeth Short. So there is no missing me.

Podcast Host / Narrator (38:13)

So you're telling me, Alex, paper, that by cracking the cipher you identify Marvin.

Alex Baber (38:20)

Merrill by cracking the cipher? We never used it as a piece of evidence, Nancy. It was an investigative tool. Tool? He was just one of hundreds of thousands of potential names or solutions. Right. What we did do is to the end of the investigation, eliminate all the individuals that were real world living beings opposed to just letter frequency, name gathering or groupings. So we were able to eliminate 94 of the 74 million at that point. Right. A little over 71 million. And once we get that name, we're able to say, okay, does this guy have a background? Is he the right race? Does he have the height? Does he have the features? Does he have the background? You know, we identify a vehicle that was. That was witnessed at Lake Berryessa an hour and a half before the murders were committed on Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard. That vehicle, once he's arrested in 71, is put for sale in a classified ad. The exact same vehicle that was used at Lake Berryessa. Is that a coincidence? And he listed under his wife's name to sell the vehicle.

Podcast Host / Narrator (39:18)

That's a lot of evidence, Alex. After you crack the cipher, you then do all the investigation work you just described and more. And you come up with, in the real world, applying the knowledge from the cipher to the facts, the description, the car, the circumstances, and you come up with one individual where it fits, and it's Marvin Merrill. Then you learn years before Marvin Merrill, who you now believe is Zodiac, dated, lived with for, I think, about 12 days, and stalked Elizabeth Short just before her murder. Is that correct?

Alex Baber (40:03)

That is correct. I believe that Marvin Merrill was always a good suspect on Elizabeth Schwartz homicide. Probably one of my top five when I got the original DA files. But connecting him directly to Zodiac did not happen until I uploaded his information as Marvin Merrill, got the Social Security Administration for reports, and realized that he filed the name Margolis and Miro under the same exact Social Security number. At that point, I knew it was the same individual.

Podcast Host / Narrator (40:26)

So to you, Nima Romani, is it starting to get real?

Nima Rahmani (40:30)

Potentially, yes. Look, if you're talking about the cipher, Nancy, that's an admission to me that's not any type of link. And obviously I'm no code breaker. I gotta defer to the experts on that. So what I'm hearing are three types of evidence, right? The fact that maybe the Black Dahlia Killer stayed at the Zodiac Motel or that's where the murder happened. I don't think that's enough. Then you have the taunting, and you went through it. Nancy, there's a lot of different killers over the years that have contacted the media, even taunted the media. I mean, throw in Bob Durst as one. That happened here in la, right? So, the famous Beverly letter to lapd. So, you know. And now you have the third piece of evidence that I've heard, and again, I'm not an expert. Maybe I got to talk to Joseph and others. Is that bayonet from decades before World War II, which may have been one of the murder weapons. Again, unless I have something we know as lawyers. Nancy, it's not what you think. It's not even what you know. It's what you can prove. But I don't think this evidence would get a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe in the Black Dahlia case, but certainly not in the zodiac killer case.

Joseph Scott Morgan (41:41)

In Okinawa, Margolis was under bombing for 29 days, then ordered to set up a hospital. He worked long hours with little sleep under frequent air raids, saw many buddies in mangled shape. His setup was in a small cave. A rain caused the sides to cave in. He was buried, all but his head, which was held tight like a vise. The next morning, he dug out. He became amnesic, emotional with depression and instability.

Alex Baber (42:05)

By today's standards, he would be. He would be flagged at the local va, meaning that doctors would say, okay, this soldier here has just come back from active duty overseas in combat, that he needs to be. He needs to be watched, he needs to have further psychological evaluations.

Podcast Host / Narrator (42:22)

We are talking about the potential zodiac killer being Merrill, AKA Margolis. And there's more.

Joseph Scott Morgan (42:32)

The psychiatric diagnosis is as follows. The subject is calm, quiet, and a resentful individual who shows ample evidence of open aggression. At present, this man shows a lack of interest, aims, and ability to concentrate. Margolis is sullen. His personality is not pleasing, apathetic, and inclined to sarcasm. He said that the next time there is a war, two of us are not going. The one who comes after me and myself.

Alex Baber (42:57)

He stated that if there was another war, somebody came for him, that two people weren't going, it would be him and the individual who came. So he's basically threatening the life of whoever shows up at his door for a draft.

Podcast Host / Narrator (43:09)

That from Killer in the Code podcast back to Alex Baber, who is making a connection between. Between Elizabeth Short's murder and bisection to the Zodiac killer. Zodiac still is unsolved. How do you believe that Margolis, what he endured in the World war could have affected him?

Alex Baber (43:36)

Well, ptsd, they call it shell shock. At that time, Nancy, it was quite common for veterans who were returning from World War II. And identifying the fact that he was discharged under 50% mental disability at that time. And his evaluation, which part of it was just read, he was definitely a loose cannon. He was explosive. And the grand jury files indicate that as well. Whenever they're doing the detective testimony under oath, they make that clear as well.

Podcast Host / Narrator (44:05)

There is also talk of the bayonet that he, Margolis, brought home, the Japanese bayonet. How does that factor in? Listen.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (44:14)

Baber also discovers an article on Marvin Margolis heroism in World War II. Margolis is quoted in the article as bringing home a Japanese rifle and bayonet he took off a soldier he claimed to have killed. Baber says the specific mention of the bayonet ties Margolis to the Zodiac killings, as the weapon matches that used in the attack on Cecelia Shepard and Bryan Hartnell. And symbols commonly etched into the knives make several appearances in the Zodiac ciphers.

Podcast Host / Narrator (44:42)

I agree with Romani on this. The speculation that the bayonet from Japan in the war somehow connects to Zodiac, I find that very tenuous. This is evidence that I find to be probative. And I believe even Sheryl McCollum and Nemo Romani are going to agree. Listen.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (45:04)

Baber discovers a striking fact. Margolis was a prime suspect in Elizabeth Short's murder two decades before the Zodiac killings. Elizabeth and Margolis dated several months before her death, and Elizabeth even lived with Margolis very briefly in an apartment Margolis shared with a wartime friend, Bill Robinson, who served as a cryptographer and Signal Corps officer in the war. When questioned about their relationship was Short. Both Margolis and Robinson were deemed untruthful by authorities, but officers had no direct evidence tying Margolis to the murder.

Joseph Scott Morgan (45:38)

What brought Margolis to the attention of the investigator was that he and Elizabeth Short had shared an apartment in Hollywood for 12 days in October, just three months before her murder.

Podcast Host / Narrator (45:51)

Cheryl McCollum. I'm not ready to make that connection yet. Like Romani, I wouldn't quite put it in front of a jury as a similar. But the fact that Margolis Merrill lived with Elizabeth short even for 12 days, they dated and he stalked her just before her murders, that's probative. So if he is the Zodiac killer, that suggests to me he could have been the Black Dahlia avenger.

Cheryl McCollum (46:19)

He clearly would be somebody I would want to look at for Elizabeth's murder. But that's a personal connection again, that's almost revengeful. That's how her murder looks to me. I'm going to torture you. I'm going to punish you. I'm going to hit you in the head. I'm going to cut your tattoo off. I'm going to tie you up. I'm going to cut you in half. I'm going to drain your blood. That is not what I'm seeing in Zodiac. It's almost like you have a lust killer in one event and a mission oriented killer in the other. They still seem two separate people to me.

Podcast Host / Narrator (46:53)

What about it? Nima Ramani?

Nima Rahmani (46:55)

Again, I think that there's evidence certainly circumstantial Evidence that Margolis or Merrill is Short's killer. I mean, we know that today's stalker, domestic violence, is tomorrow's murder. Look, if anything happens to me, Nancy, my wife should be the number one suspect, so I understand that. I don't understand. And I can't prove the connection to Zodiac. That's the problem. All we have is the motel, this bayonet. Now, again, if the code is an admission, a confession, sure, that's something. But other than that, we don't have enough to prove that these are the same two individuals that killed folks in Vallejo and who killed Elizabeth Short.

Podcast Host / Narrator (47:39)

Well, there's more. Listen.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (47:42)

Baber convinces Meryl's son to meet in person. Baber comes clean about his theory Meryl is Zodiac, and and asks the son if he recognizes the handwriting in the Zodiac letters. Baber also mentions his theory. Murrell's first victim was Elizabeth Short. And the son perks up at the name Elizabeth. Showing Baber his father's last sketch, a nude woman's torso under the name Elizabeth. Baber discovers the word Zodiac written underneath dark shading in the sketch.

Alex Baber (48:13)

Looking at a sketch of a nude woman, you know, from the waist up, that appears to have puncture wounds to the torso area with smeared bl. And it has Elizabeth in bold writing. The biggest. The biggest writing on the entire sketch. It says Elizabeth. It was a smoking gun. We knew that this sketch was a piece of evidence. It was physical evidence for the first time since the package was mailed to the local newspapers in LA on January 24, 1947.

Podcast Host / Narrator (48:41)

Alex Baber joining us tonight. Alex, tell me what happened when you meet with Merrill's son.

Alex Baber (48:48)

Oh, he was very open to me and my associate. We started to present our findings on his father. The letters in particular. He recognized the handwriting, immediately became slightly emotional, reached. Out. Of all the people I've interviewed, it's the first time one's ever initiated physical contact with me. Reaching across the table and grabbing my hand, saying, this is going be okay. We're going to be all right. That was a red flag to me as I'm moving through and I mentioned the Black Dahlia connection we had uncovered through the DA files. He said, is her name Elizabeth? I said, yeah. So he said, give me a moment. So he starts flipping through his phone, finds his photograph, and instantly when I opened it up, he hand me his phone. I zoom in on it. The first thing I see are puncture wounds to the torso. They're not rib cage, they're not there for contrast. There are literal puncture wounds to the center of her torso that match up with the autopsy photographs. And it appears to be smeared blood over them. You know, we have what looks like the top of the breast tissue removed from the exposed breast. We have the clear indication which we're getting analyzed, and forensic expert is going to give us an opinion on it. But we know it has the word Zodiac hidden underneath the shading. Why would this guy, who's just got diagnosed with stage four cancer, he has less than a year to live. He creates a sketch with the big name Elizabeth of a nude woman. There's no navel indicated in the sketch. It could be below that. But if you look at the torso length, it stands out to me that she's lying or sitting in something because there's dark shading in between her torso and her arms, and just outside of both of her arms, as if she's laying in a tub. Her hair appears wet. Her eyes look like they're dimmed out. Zoom in on them. And then we have these pieces of guilty evidence that are within the sketch. That's not public domain. That's not something that somebody would know unless a. The perpetrator or. Or be there, present when her body was discovered.

Podcast Host / Narrator (50:38)

Straight out to Sidney Sumner. Joining us, Crime Stories Investigative reporter Sydney. There are many, many theories out there about who is really Zodiac, right?

Cheryl McCollum (50:49)

Absolutely. There have been a number of people who have come forward claiming they believe their father, their grandfather, was the Zodiac Killer. And the same goes for Elizabeth Short.

Podcast Host / Narrator (51:00)

As a matter of fact, here is one theory. That George Hodel is the killer.

Alex Baber (51:06)

I believe I know who killed the Black Dahlia. His name was George Hodel.

Joseph Scott Morgan (51:10)

But here's the kicker.

Alex Baber (51:11)

I also think he was the Zodiac Killer. After George's death, his son Steve found pictures that resembled the Black Dahlia, Elizabeth Short. And since he found that picture, he's.

Joseph Scott Morgan (51:23)

Been able to catalog enough evidence to make a book.

Alex Baber (51:25)

And here's just a few parts of that evidence.

Nima Rahmani (51:27)

There were six prime suspects at the.

Alex Baber (51:29)

Time of Elizabeth Short's murder. Turns out George Hodel was one of them. They even bugged his home for a little bit. And I'm going to read you one of the transcripts. Supposing I did kill the Black Dahlia, they can't prove it. They can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead.

Podcast Host / Narrator (51:45)

Okay. To Alex Baber. What about Hodel as the Black Dahlia killer? Does it work for you?

Alex Baber (51:54)

We already disproved him, as did LAPD. Back in early 2000s. They investigated Steve Odell's findings. And Mitzi Roberts could probably tell you more about this, but they actually debunked his claims. There's no connection. There was never any intimate relationship or known relationship between Elizabeth Short and Dr. George Hill Hodel at all. As far as the recording of the house goes, if you're going to be intimate with somebody, as his son claims in nine or 13 books, what would make sense to me is when he's talking about in the privacy of his residence, he's going to refer to her name, whether it be Elizabeth Beth, Betty's not going to refer to her as the Black Dahlia. And the privacy of his residence, it makes no sense.

Podcast Host / Narrator (52:34)

Alex, that jumped out at me as well. Why would he refer to her as the Black Dahlia? Okay, I agree with you on that. You know, Cheryl McCollum, the fact that Hodel was considered a suspect at the time is good police work. You run down every potential suspect. So you're ready when you finally accuse someone publicly, because everybody you researched or you investigated can then become a defense for the defense. Hey, didn't you think it was Hodel? It's the police duty to run down every single potential suspect, right?

Cheryl McCollum (53:12)

It is absolutely their duty, Nancy. They even looked at Bugsy Siegel for Elizabeth murder. I mean, they had everybody on their list. A lot of these folks, they cleared them whether they should have or not, but they did. Again, what we're looking at here is zero physical evidence. It would be great if we could pull a fingerprint off one of the letters, if we could get DNA off an envelope that he licked, or a stamp. We don't have that here. What we have is a great theory, but we had it with Arthur Leigh Allen. I mean, we've had it with other people that looked good for some of these murders.

Joseph Scott Morgan (53:50)

I don't know.

Podcast Host / Narrator (53:51)

The fact that Margolis was actually dating Elizabeth Short and is now potentially the Zodiac. I find that connection right there very, very probative. But there are other theories.

Nima Rahmani (54:07)

Listen, my grandpa is the Zodiac Killer. Let's talk about it. My grandpa was a Vallejo police officer. Yes, the same area where the Zodiac.

Joseph Scott Morgan (54:16)

Killers killings took place.

Nima Rahmani (54:18)

Darlene Farron and her boyfriend Mike were driving around Vallejo one night, the night that my grandfather happened to be on duty, driving an unmarked police car and wearing plain clothes. Mike, who ended up surviving the shooting, said that they were being followed around by this car all night in Vallejo before they pulled into Blue Rock Springs. They said when they parked the car, pulled in, a man hopped out of the car, and Darlene the girl who passed away, said, oh, my God, that's Richard. He's gonna kill us both.

Alex Baber (54:45)

She had a painting party at her.

Nima Rahmani (54:47)

House a few weeks before her murder. And it was said that my grandfather, Richard Hoffman, showed up uninvited, and she told her circle of friends that she is scared to death of him.

Podcast Host / Narrator (54:56)

That's from 3O on TikTok. And there's even speculation that Ted Cruz is the killer.

Alex Baber (55:05)

Could Ted Cruz actually be the Zodiac killer?

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (55:08)

So on March 14, 2013, multiple users tweeted, CPAC alert. Ted Cruz is speaking. His speech is titled, this is the Zodiac speaking. Ted Cruz himself referenced the meme by tweeting out an infamous picture of a coded letter written by the Zodiac Killer. He did something similar on October 31.

Nima Rahmani (55:26)

2018, when he tweeted another Zodiac cipher.

Alex Baber (55:29)

And included the caption, happy Halloween.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (55:32)

For most, this just proved that Cruise.

Alex Baber (55:33)

Was in on the joke. But it may have added some legitimacy for others.

Nima Rahmani (55:37)

Some people also feel that there is.

Narrator / Crime Storyteller (55:38)

Somewhat of a resemblance between Cruise and.

Nima Rahmani (55:40)

The police sketches of the Zodiac Killer.

Podcast Host / Narrator (55:43)

Okay, that's from Uzzfeed unsolved on TikTok. And on and on and on. I could play you conspiracy theories from now till the end of time about who is Zodiac to you, Rachel Sharp, what do you find to be the most compelling theory?

Nancy Grace (56:02)

Yeah, I mean, as you point out, there's so many. There's been so many occasions where people have claimed to have solved the Zodiac and the Black Dahlia cases. What I do think differentiates the case here is in the Black Dahlia case, you have someone who was in a relationship with Elizabeth Short. He was also had that surgical experience. He was in the medical corps while he served overseas in World War II. And he was also training at the time at USC Medical School. So he had both of those characteristics. He also was named as a suspect, and that was by the LA authorities at the time. And that was, you know, one of the reasons they gave for that was that he was the only boyfriend that lived with Elizabeth Short, had that medical training and was also the only one who had Marine experience. Obviously, we know that a police officer encountered the woman she believed was Short the night before, who said that she was afraid of a Marine. So the evidence there is quite compelling. And then couple that with the Zodiac and the solving of the solution to the z13 cipher, which, as we say, has been verified by one of the top code breakers in the world. Then you put the cases together, and it is certainly a very compelling argument. You have the bayonet you have the motel, you have the cipher. You have also a gap in the Zodiac's correspondence. So There was a three year gap in the Zodiac correspondence from 1971 to 1974. And what's curious is that that timing actually corresponded with a three year probation period where Marvin Margolis had been convicted of fraud and was under probation for that time. So while it does need further investigation, there is a lot of compelling evidence there. And I think what sets us apart is that it's attracted experts. You know, this isn't sort of theories. This has got the top code breaker who has said the solution is correct to the Z13 cipher. You have some former LAPD homicide detectives who have actually gone on the record and, you know, said they believe this is solved. And we also know that police are actively reviewing things as well. So while there has been a lot of theories, a lot of speculation, a lot of people claiming to have solved these cases, we at least know that police are taking this seriously.

Podcast Host / Narrator (58:48)

Sydney Sumner, what about it?

Cheryl McCollum (58:50)

I have to agree, Nancy. It's all very compelling when you look at all of this circumstantial evidence put together. And what Weber's theory really focuses on is that sketch. That is a physical piece of evidence. And while it could mean many things, it's. It just seems like an incredible coincidence that on his deathbed, Marvin Merrill, Marvin Margolis, draws this sketch of Elizabeth matching that upper torso, that bisected body, and the word Zodiac is just conveniently tucked in there. Really makes you want to believe that this could be the solution.

Podcast Host / Narrator (59:38)

Crime stories with nancy grace. Back to Alex Baber joining us, Director of Cold Case Consultants of America. You've devoted countless man hours to solving this. So if you firmly believe that Maryl is Zodiac, not just because of the cipher, but because of other evidence, the connection of Maril AKA Margolis to Elizabeth Short is clear. They lived together. She was afraid of him just shortly before her death. And the murder was so intensely personal. Again, how do you. Why are you convinced that Meryl is Zodiac? Because I think I've got him on Short. But what about Zodiac?

Alex Baber (60:33)

Good question, Nancy. So here's what we got. We discovered that this individual was living having two residents under two names which were aliases. One was Marvin Merrill in the Oceanside Carlsbad location. And then the North Bay in the San Jose using Skip Mural right at the same time. And his family that we spoke to couldn't account for his whereabouts. One assumed that was in the Vista Oceanside area. The other ones are like we could. We don't know where our dad was, right? And then we find out that his background we can connect directly to, to the area in the north, while also having these overlaps between the events that took place in the crimes and his traveling or where he was at at the time. We can go all the way back to 1962. So when he arrives in Oceanside in February of 62, a month and a half later, a cab driver named Ray Davis is murdered. And this was not from me, but if you search the Internet, you'll see that there is other people who have linked him as being a possible Zodiac suspect. Back in 62, as a cab driver, it mimics the Paul Stein attack. Almost identical. There's called a law enforcement mocking them. There's the murders committed, and then they make fun of law enforcement for not catching him. And then he threatens to take out a bus. It's almost a mirror image of what happened with Paul Stine. So Margolis moves into Oceanside. A month and a half later, this murder takes place, right? And then the same thing happens some what, seven years later. And is that a coincidence? Every place that this guy goes, every place that he lives, there's either a Zodiac crime committed, there's a suspected Zodiac crime committed, or there's a Zodiac letter melt across the nation, literally even in Atlanta. We'll discuss that later in our podcast. But every time this guy goes somewhere, there's a connection. Either he's the most unluckiest guy on the planet, or he's the perpetrator.

Podcast Host / Narrator (62:28)

When you say everywhere, Margolis, AKA Merrill goes, there was a Zodiac type killing.

Alex Baber (62:36)

Where we have the ones in the Oceanside area, we have the ones in the Bay Area, we have the letters that connect not just from those two locations or communications, but we also have those that are connected into Atlanta and early 80s. I mean, there's everywhere, literally everywhere this guy goes and there's a Zodiac letter, mail or crime, he's there. He has connections to it.

Podcast Host / Narrator (62:58)

You know what? That's very, very probative. It proves something to me. What was holding me up was the difference in the mos and the time lapse between Elizabeth Short's murder and the commencement of the Zodiac killings. But if you can nail him. Meryl and Zodiac, I don't think it's a leap for short because of their relationship. It's very obvious, as Nima Rahmani said earlier, you look to who is dating or living with the person at that time, and it was Meryl. What do you make of all these other theories, I played just a few of them.

Alex Baber (63:40)

Well, there's multiple theories out there. Everybody's accused their brother, their sister, their father, their dog, the mailman. But none of them have substantiated evidence or physical evidence as we do the sketch. And, you know, we have these other things. There's over 132 pieces of circumstantial evidence, plus physical evidence that we've gathered that's overwhelming. We spoke to one of the active DAs in Los Angeles who said he's convicted people on. On lesser evidence.

Podcast Host / Narrator (64:06)

Alex, let me ask you. You spent so much time on this cipher. What in the cipher convinces you it's a Zodiac cipher? What in the cipher convinces you Zodiac is Merrill?

Alex Baber (64:20)

Well, the fact that the same methodology that was identified in December 2020 by Dave Ornczyk and his team, which is a double layer transposition as well as a substitution. What I did is I took that similar hypotheses and applied it on a scaled down level. So I created a grid as this other are created a 2x7, adding what's called a null at that point, identified the permutation using AI, giving me 5040 possible names based on that methodology, eliminate all the other suspects that were within that permutation sequence. And then we submitted it to Ed Giorgio, who had his findings peer reviewed, and they discovered that the key word to that cipher is the name Elizabeth. Meaning when you apply the keyword in the creation of the permutation, her name is the key word to solving that cipher. That's beyond coincidence, Nancy.

Podcast Host / Narrator (65:08)

Wow. So you would say that based on what you learned in the cipher, the use of Elizabeth as the key word identifies Meryl.

Alex Baber (65:21)

It's just another piece, another, you know, log on the fire. Nancy, we have so many pieces connecting this guy. And what's the odds that his name. Now let me look at this. Let me put in perspective for the viewers. So you have to find a suspect in another crime. If you're trying to stage this, that would be Marvin Margolis, then you have to hope he has an alias that matches the letter frequency or character count within the Z13, which is Marvin Merrill. Then you have to have the luck that it's a double methodology, like the Z340 was. It was discovered December 2020. And then you have to apply the permutation key, which happens to be Elizabeth. There's better odds of buying a lottery ticket and hitting the Powerball than there is at all of these being coincidences.

Podcast Host / Narrator (66:05)

So, Alex, are you telling me that the permutation keyword to cracking the cipher is Elizabeth. And by using that permutation keyword, the name Merrill came out of the cipher.

Alex Baber (66:21)

You're 100% correct, Nancy.

Podcast Host / Narrator (66:23)

Wow. Okay. You know what? In my world, two is a coincidence, three is a pattern. You have developed so much evidence to point to Merrill being Zodiac and Merrill having stalked Elizabeth short. Will we ever know the truth? If you know or think you know, if anything about this case, Please go to tips.FBI.gov There are still family members who want justice. Tonight, we remember an American hero, Officer Andy Chan of Philly pd, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife turned widow and three children without a father. American hero Officer Andy Chan, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

Nancy Grace (67:26)

This is an I Heart podcast.

Podcast Host / Narrator (67:28)

Guaranteed human.