ZONE 7: Procedural Chaos: Inside the Mangione Hearing That’s Putting Police Training on Trial

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode: ZONE 7: Procedural Chaos: Inside the Mangione Hearing That’s Putting Police Training on Trial
Date: December 7, 2025
Guest Experts: Joshua Schiffer & Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, legal experts Joshua Schiffer and Cheryl dissect the ongoing Mangione hearing—a case putting established police training and procedures under intense scrutiny following a high-stakes manhunt and assassination. The hosts passionately debate police practice, the ease of obtaining warrants, evidentiary pitfalls, and the ripple effects procedural errors have on high-profile cases. The episode reflects on systemic issues in law enforcement, judicial expectations, and how such procedural missteps might compromise the integrity of even the most solid-seeming cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Centrality of Warrants to Law Enforcement Procedure

[02:31 – 06:17]

• Joshua Schiffer: Stresses repeatedly that officers should obtain warrants 99.9% of the time before searches (“If you are searching a person, their home, their business or their vehicle, we’ve made it easy. We made it easy.” [02:45])
• Cheryl: Describes how legal developments over the past 50 years have dramatically lowered the barrier for officers to get warrants—now often handled electronically or via video.
• Notable Quote:
  • “There is no downside, save exigent circumstances, to getting a warrant. Warrants are there as the mandatory bright line safety rule check…” – Cheryl [03:47]
• Both experts describe how the modern system allows for near-instant access to a judge, eliminating the previous logistical hassle.

2. Mangione Hearing: What Went Wrong?

[04:58 – 09:12]

• Cheryl outlines how a critical procedural error—the failure to get a warrant for a suspect’s backpack—has put a mountain of potential evidence at risk.
• The pair express incredulity that, despite the high-profile nature of the case, protocols were skirted.
• Notable Quote:
  • “How in the world do five officers show up…there’s not a warrant for that backpack?” – Joshua Schiffer [05:55]
• Political, class, and social movement undertones in the case are flagged as looming factors not yet fully examined.

3. Testimony, Coaching, and “Lying by Omission”

[06:23 – 09:52]

• Cheryl suspects the officer’s testimony has been carefully coached to fit legal thresholds, highlighting the “needle-threading” that often occurs in contested hearings.
• Analysis centers on how, if officers don’t strictly adhere to rules, evidence risks suppression, and each misstep creates potential grounds for appeal.
• Notable Moment: The room’s reaction to an officer’s admission mid-testimony—“basically stopped all the criminal practitioners in the room. And everybody that knows criminal law stopped and looked at each other and were like, did he just say that?” – Cheryl [09:52]

4. Judicial Perception & Public Narratives

[11:40 – 12:51]

• Cheryl raises concerns about the impact of pretrial publicity, overzealous prosecution press releases, and how they erode “fundamental fairness.” Judges, she asserts, genuinely consider what it would mean if they, personally, were in the defendant’s position.
• Notable Quote:
  • “It makes it very hard to have integrity in your judicial system…that fundamental unfairness of a narrative being created by law enforcement before there’s any investigation.” – Cheryl [11:56]

5. The Stakes of Suppressed Evidence & Death Penalty Cases

[12:51 – 14:29]

• The experts agree that while some evidence might be suppressed, there is still video evidence making the state’s case viable.
• Still, they lament that the suppression of critical evidence (e.g., a manifesto, gun, fake ID) weakens both the prosecution’s narrative and the possibility for the death penalty.
• Notable Quote:
  • “If the death penalty portion of this case gets substantially weaker, that causes big problems.” – Cheryl [13:42]

6. The Importance of Strict Rule Adherence

[15:00 – 15:53]

• Joshua and Cheryl discuss how errors, even if labeled “harmless” by the appellate courts, degrade legal discourse and trust in the system.
• Notable Quote:
  • “If the rules don’t apply here, when do they really apply?” – Cheryl [15:25]

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Important Moments and Timestamps

• Warrants are easy now: “Gone are the days you had to go search for somebody at a bar or restaurant. It’s all video. It’s all electronic.” – Joshua Schiffer [04:23]
• On coached testimony: “It appears that his testimony has been thoroughly coached in a specific way.” – Cheryl [08:49]
• The defense's delight at a police error: “Imagine being the defense lawyer and getting the potential murder weapon suppressed because of a bad stop.” – Cheryl [23:27]
• Cheryl’s analogy for skipping legal procedures: “It’s like making a grilled cheese sandwich, and you’re like, well, we’re gonna do this, but we don’t need cheese.” [30:42]

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Takedown of the Brian Walsh Case

[23:56 – 28:57]

• Brief discussion of the unrelated Brian Walsh murder case, included for comparison.
• Cheryl mocks the defense’s opening and highlights the overwhelming digital evidence against Walsh, hammering home the importance of digital forensics in today’s cases.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “A lie is as good as a confession. But once I lock you in…and you start changing it even slightly. Now we’re getting somewhere.” – Joshua Schiffer [26:28]
  • “His search history could not be more inculpatory. It’s literally, can you identify a body when you break the teeth in? What’s the best saw to cut up a body…” – Cheryl [28:28]

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Closing Strong: Training and Frustration

[28:57 – 31:00]

• Both experts express deep frustration at procedural failures, reiterating the simplicity and legal necessity of regular warrant use.
• Notable Quotes:
  • “So to me, the training should be, you get a warrant every time. Get a warrant.” – Joshua Schiffer [29:40]
  • “It’s that easy, y’all. It ain’t hard.” – Cheryl [29:46]

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Tone, Style, and Final Thoughts

• The tone throughout is candid, informal, and occasionally wry—suitable for listeners wanting both education and unfiltered opinion.
• Cheryl and Joshua’s rapport brings humor and accessibility to legal minutiae.
• The episode closes with mutual appreciation between the hosts and practical advice on loving yourself and others, while expressing ongoing bafflement at some officers’ mistakes.

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | Speaker | Memorable Quote/Point | |------------|-----------------------------------------|--------------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:31–06:17| Police Procedures & Warrants | Joshua & Cheryl | “99.9% of the time you need a warrant.” | | 04:58–09:12| Mangione Case Hearing | Cheryl | “Not a warrant for that backpack?” | | 09:52–11:40| Testimony & Training Shortcomings | Cheryl | “Did he just say that?” | | 11:40–12:51| Narrative & Judicial Fairness | Cheryl | “It makes it very hard to have integrity in your judicial system…” | | 12:51–14:29| Stakes of Suppressed Evidence | Joshua & Cheryl | “If the death penalty portion...gets weaker, that causes big problems.” | | 23:56–28:57| Brian Walsh Case Analysis | Cheryl | “His search history could not be more inculpatory…” | | 29:40–30:54| Frustration & Systemic Lessons | Joshua & Cheryl | “It’s that easy, y’all. It ain’t hard.” |

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For listeners new and seasoned, the episode pulls no punches: procedure isn’t just paperwork—it’s the backbone of justice. And for every officer listening, the message echoes: Get. A. Warrant.

Transcript

[Joshua Schiffer]

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[Joshua Schiffer]

Welcome to Crime Roundup. Joshua Schiffer I gotta tell you I am so irritated I'm telling you. I mean I don't even have anything positive to start with. I try to be a glass half full. But I'm gonna tell you something and I want everybody that is wearing a badge to listen to me right this minute. 99.9% of the time you need a warrant. 99.9% of the Time you need a warrant. If you are searching a person, their home, their business or their vehicle, we've made it easy. We made it easy.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

We spent the last 50 years.

Figuring out okay, we warrants are now super required. Let's make it real easy to get them. And we've done that.

[Joshua Schiffer]

And let me make it even easier. I'm not an attorney. Listen to me. I am not an attorney, but I got one sitting here with me. It won't hurt your case if you get one and don't need it.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

No, no.

[Joshua Schiffer]

So the question would be to me, get one every time. Correct.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

There is no downside, save exigent circumstances, to getting a warrant. Warrants are there as the mandatory bright line safety rule check that is easy for judges to attach to. And they say, all right, here's the stuff that happened when there was a warrant. Here's the stuff that happened when there wasn't a warrant. It's pretty easy to separate the two buckets. Cheryl, you and I know half the damn judges in this town. We could get a warrant within a very short period. Literally. It's set up to video appear and get a warrant.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Gone are the days you had to go search for somebody at a bar or restaurant. It's all video. It's all electronic.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

They used to hunt judges down in person just with the piece of paper, man. There was an officer whose job. Oh, no. I can go find Judge Smith. Let's go find him. He'll sign this right now. But because warrants now are so easy, there is no excuse.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Joshua. Judge Andy Mickle, God rest his soul. We knew where to find him.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wasn't hard.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Four bar stools into the left.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Yeah. Old judge Fuller out in Gwinnett county, who I knew very, very well similarly. And you could find. It's not hard to find a magistrate. There's a duty magistrate on 24 hours a day in every major county in the nation like it's. And for those of y' all that are wondering what we're fetching about, it's this mangione hearing that is happening right now, or it's probably just wrapped up for the day and listening to very strong arguments about fundamental stuff law enforcement is supposed to do. Be aware of how they're supposed to act. Especially when you've been dispatched on a. At the tail end of what is then a five day manhunt for an assassination caught on video. It has not been the strongest showing for law enforcement.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Bottom line, this will be, if not the biggest case of their career, the biggest media case of their career. How in the world do five officers show up? Then supervisors are made aware of who they got, and there's not a warrant for that backpack.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

And now that they find themselves in this position.

On a case of such importance, not just because it's a big crime and a horrible murder. The. The politics that are connected to this run real deep and fundamental with some class issues. We haven't even gotten into the politics of what the defense and Mr. Mangione and all that. The social movement. No, we haven't even gotten to that part. This is fundamental operative stuff. And the real problem is now that we're in the middle of appears that it would be fair to conclude the officer has been specifically coached how to thread this needle in a very delicate manner in order for the judge to allow the evidence to stand. And that begs the question that underlies all these criminal prosecutions and everything in civil court. Are you lying? Is that really what happened?

Are you just testifying? Because you know you need to say this in order to prevail.

Because unfortunately, when you look at police citizen encounters which have been litigated to death for 50 years, you got. There are tier levels. There are more opinions on what an officer was and was not allowed to do with or without what level of suspicion. We now train officers with big bright highlighters. Hey, here's how probable cause works. Here's where the lines are. You gotta stay within the lines because if you get outside the lines, everything happens outside that line is not coming into your case. And unfortunately, this officer appeared to have not taken this by his own admission, as a terribly serious dispatch. And he has got to establish, It's. I believe Detwiler is the name. He has got to establish very specifically that when he was dispatched, he didn't have any specific probable cause or realization that this was the guy, but this was Mangione. He has to have been at basically zero alert, because if he was at alert, if he had suspicion, he should have gotten a warrant. He should have Mirandized people immediately.

[Joshua Schiffer]

That's right.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

It's this trap for the poor officer where he can't testify. Yeah, no, I thought it was him, so I was just gonna go poker. No, no, no, no, no. That's the case for you. And. And that poor officer is going to get pilloried by the fact that it. It appears that his testimony has been thoroughly coached in a specific way.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Y', all, you have listened to Joshua schiffer on Zone 7, crime, roundup, court TV, a plethora of other places. Y' all don't always know the words he's using. Let's be honest. He uses some phrases, some words where you're like, I need to look that up. What did he just Say, here's a hint. You don't want that person cross examining you. Trust me. Y' all heard him when he told y' all he went to camp to learn how to come at you.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

And the reports from the actual examination include. And there are some wonderful people. This is, of course, federal court, so we're really struggling with knowing exactly what's happening inside the room. But there have been multiple reports of some admissions from the officers about their procedure that basically stopped all the criminal practitioners in the room. And everybody that knows criminal law stopped and looked at each other and were like, did he just say that? Okay, let's keep going there.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Let's keep going.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

That is not a good feeling when you're the witness. That is not a good feeling when that's your witness and you're the lawyer, because the witness is going to get down, go, how'd I do, man? How'd I do? And you're going, oh, man, you did great. When you very clearly illustrated your lack of knowledge as to this specific training issue and gutted everything we're trying to do here with your authentic testimony. And I'm afraid there were a couple of those conversations coming with some of this when and how you obtain a warrant, because a warrant's just that easy. And I tell you, if the government loses the bag and the contents, we're going to have a whole other discussion about the poisoning the jury. Well, you and I talked about this last week and how these statements that are coming out from the administration and other agencies really push the ethical boundaries of what law enforcement is supposed to say or not say, most importantly, not say at the early stages of an investigation.

And it brings in all that pretrial publicity stuff where even the most conservative justices that are on most federal panels now look at that and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Fundamental fairness issue.

You have an elected or appointed prosecutor that owns the press dominating a narrative. While this innocent citizen and judges really do think about the innocent citizen, they do. They reverse roles and go, what if it was me in that position? What would I be able to. And they see that fundamental unfairness of a narrative being created by law enforcement before there's any investigation that makes it very hard to have integrity in your judicial system. And now, if you're going to get some of that key evidence that is the manifesto or not a manifesto, the gun, Not a gun. The statements. Not the statements about the fake ID that's not a fake. Oh, yeah, it's the only fake ID I had, man. You lose that stuff and I'm not saying the case falls apart, but it sure isn't as strong as it should be.

[Joshua Schiffer]

That's right. I don't believe the case is going to fall apart one, because we got a video. However, it would be great to say, hey, didn't he check into that hostel with a fake ID from New Jersey? Is this the same ID? Great. And what caliber 9 millimeter was used? Is it the same ammunition that was in that bag? Great. And this manifesto, does he not say, I want to get a health care CEO or whatever? He says, you want that to come in?

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Yeah, it's. It is important evidence and yet the fundamentals of the case are going to stay the same. And I'm certain that a good prosecutor can put together a case even if the evidence is suppressed, but it is not the case that the public deserves. And if there's any chance at the most aggressive remedies being applied, which a lot of people are calling for as one of the few legitimate deterrent death penalty cases that's out there, because deterrence and the death penalty, everybody says that death penalty is not a deterrent. Well, when you've got a random victim like this who's being selected purely because of their political or economic position, well, now you've actually got some deterrence because it tells the would be assassins. Nope, nope, nope. We'll make these political cases death penalty. If the death penalty portion of this case gets substantially weaker, that causes big problems. And I tell you, every suppressed piece of evidence is going to be multiple appeals. If this is a death penalty case.

[Joshua Schiffer]

But you shouldn't give them, just give them anything. Oh yeah, I mean, this would be a huge blow. Shouldn't happen. Should not even be up for discussion. Shouldn't be something we're in court arguing about. It should have been done by the book, by the numbers. They should have called in a district attorney to say, hey, how do we proceed? What do we do? This is the guy.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

And what's frustrating from the practitioner perspective is due to this being so factually driven and rules and procedure driven. No matter what your political and personal moral persuasions are in the criminal justice system, you probably have an attachment to the rules.

And you can be pro state, you can be pro defense. This is a, do you believe in rules or not? Because there aren't more clear rules than some of these. And if the rules don't apply here, when do they really apply?

[Joshua Schiffer]

I mean, a man's life is on the line.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

One of the big criticisms of our system is every error is harmless.

And it's oh, the rules, man, they're all there. But they're not real rules because, hold on, you can violate them and still achieve a conviction that withstands appellate review. And so now you just don't need the state breaking one or two rule. No, you. You need. You need some pretty good stuff. Clear violations of a clear law rule ruling to win on appeal. This would appear to be kind of clear and it sets back the whole discourse.

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[Joshua Schiffer]

To me, if you have an officer testifying and he says, look, I mean, I get this call to go to a McDonald's, no way. It's this guy, he planned this thing so well that you would think, okay, he's been in a hostel, nobody's going to really see him, fake id. He moved about the city without leaving much of a trail. Or so we thought. The way he took the bus, the way he took, you know, other transportation to try to hide. Yeah, I, I understand and I would completely, when I would be listening to him, I would get that, no way this is going to be the guy. But I'm going to stroll into the McDonald's and I'm going to make them happy. I'm going to do my job. I'm going to check him out. Well, he knew as soon as he saw him, that's the guy we've all been seeing at that moment. There should have been a supervisor notified. There should have been, you know, an ADA en route. I mean this thing should have been, let's circle the wagons and let's get to the smartest person to tell us the best course of action.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

And really, even if you're an inexperienced or under trained officer, which this officer unfortunately is, isn't, he knew had well enough training to know what to do or not do.

Let the training kick in. All right? At the moment you realize it's him.

It'S detention, Miranda. And then call for guidance and backup as soon as you have exigently secured the, the, the, the scene. Because as soon as you realize, oh look, that's a killer, you get to be Afraid officer has the right and the privilege to be fearful for public and personal safety the moment he realizes the person that he's interacting with is the subject of a manhunt and wanted. But he'd kind of been told that before even showing up, he just needed to make sure he disclaims that enough. And in fact, there was very specific testimony today about how the supervising officer had said, hey, if it's really him, I'll buy you a hoagie. Trying to show how much of this wasn't serious. And the state needs this to not be serious until officer actually identifies him. But then the moment you've identified him, everything's got to go according to the book because this is going to be picked apart and scrutinized to the highest level. So you put them in custody, secure the safety of yourself, the defendant, anybody else around, and then you call for backup.

And you. And you get the right direction, including before you search anything, get a warrant before you say anything to him, you Mirandize him.

And to miss some easy swings, built a pile of nuggets that the defense is reveling in. Imagine being the defense lawyer and getting the potential murder weapon.

Suppressed because of a bad stop. And that's really how you're going to hear this referred to, is this was a bad stop.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Get a warrant. Get a warrant. Get a warrant, get a warrant.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Not everybody is as sophisticated as Mr. Mangione, though. We have some other trial action going on this week. I don't know if you've been paying too much attention to that big case out of Massachusetts, this Brian Walsh case, which you can tell it's a slow trial season because this is the case that so many people are on right now.

Talk about a case that didn't need to get tried. I 100% believe this was a zero offer case, that it was, man. You can plead to the court, you can take the deal, but we ain't gonna give you one minute off of a max recommendation because of just the horrificness of, of the allegations followed up by the overwhelming evidence that Brian Walsh, who killed his wife, dismembered her, hid her body, and then lied to everyone, including their three kids, about what happened to mommy. I almost feel bad for the defense crew except for the fact that I really kind of am picking a bone with them. The defense opening, and these guys don't have squat to work with. The big mistake that lawyers make is that if you don't have anything to work with, you just get loud and angry and people will pay attention. To you. But that's basically telling everybody, hey, we don't have anything and we need to lose. And the defense for Mr. Walsh is laughable and is basically guaranteeing he has to show up and testify and he's going to get eviscerated on cross, but that he woke up in the middle of the night, or was there in the middle of the night and she was supposed to be asleep when he gets into bed and she's not asleep, she's dead. And instead of, you know, calling ambulances and law enforcement and, you know, family members and freaking out, no, he started searching the Internet for the worst. How do you dispose of a body? Admissions of all time. Then he disposed of the body in what I'm pretty certain is a graphically inexcusably awful manner involving multiple dumpsters. And then he's lied his way into this position where I expect after a disastrous attempt for him to save himself via testifying, he's going to get convicted and sentenced to multiple consecutives.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Well, I try to say as often as I can, a lie is as good as a confession.

But once. Once I lock you in.

And you start changing it even slightly. Now we're getting somewhere. But, you know, it's always a clue to me, Josh, when your place of business reports you missing before your spouse.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Bingo. Bing. It was like, okay, man, there's just no logic. And no matter what story you start to tell because you failed to pass the first step, like, you. You don't. You don't just keep quiet about them things. Wake up next to a dead woman, crawl into bed, and the person's dead, man, quiet. That is not what's happening. No one understands or agrees with. No, no, you don't tell anybody about that.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Yeah, don't tell them. And you don't want to upset the kids. So chop her up, get rid of her.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Certainly not the three children you have. Oh, and the fact that you discovered that, yes, she was having an affair. And that's awful and terrible. It's not death penalty, though. Like, having an affair shouldn't result in you being murdered. Just general rules. But, yeah, this case and it again. And a lot of the discussion is about the narcissism and almost psychopathy of putting up a defense like this because it's so ridiculous. His Google searches. All right, ladies and gentlemen, if you did it on the Internet, we can pay somebody to go find out what you did. I know you think you can encrypt a lot of it, and there's arguments over the interpretation, but really, digital bits and bytes leave trails, and Google is only too happy to comply with subpoenas. And, man, his search history could not be. Be more inculpatory. It's literally, can you identify a body when you break the teeth in? What's. What's the best saw to cut up a body is a hacksaw. Really, the best saw to cut up a b. Like it is. Cheryl, I'm telling you, it makes you want to just wish him into prison so that we don't have to be exposed to the. The choices. It's. It's insane, but gripping television in a lot of ways. People really like watching the case because of its salaciousness.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Absolutely. Well, honey, I hate to cut this short, but I got a family dinner to get to. It's going to be a tough, tough night. But I do appreciate you always. And I. You know, I just. I get so frustrated because it's like, we've done it. We've told you. We've trained you, and look where we are. We're in a position we shouldn't be in.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

And the poor captain, the poor lieutenant, like, man, they covered this. Like, you go back to the barracks, man, you covered this, right?

[Joshua Schiffer]

Like, this is nausea.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Oh, my. It has got to be crushing.

[Joshua Schiffer]

So to me, the training should be, you get a warrant every time. Get a warrant.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

It's that easy, y'. All. It ain't hard. You hear? Oh, it's hard to get them. No, no, no. Really. You raise your hand, you say that you're a sworn police officer with lots of training, and then you say, well, my belief is, I observed. Since I observed the. This evidence. I believe a crime has been committed. I. I would like to show or the permission of the court to put this person under arrest and go search him. And most of the time, the judge is going to ask you a couple questions, such as it really is you and you really did see them and this happened, or this is what you saw and heard and reported from people. Yep. It's. It's. It's a specific, articulable suspicion. It is not beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not clear and convincing. It is not preponderance. No, it is the lowest bar in law. You have to be able to enunciate and articulate. A crime might have occurred.

That's it. So there's just no excuse to skip. It's like making a grilled cheese sandwich, and you're like, well, we're gonna do this, but we don't need cheese.

[Joshua Schiffer]

Like, it just kills me. It just. It just is so frustrating.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

I. I love toggling at these conversations. The highlight of my week. I love y' all in the audience. Ms. Cheryl, I know that you're gonna go celebrate some wonderful stuff with some love people, so I'm gonna say good night to everyone. Go love somebody, even if it's yourself. And I'm sorry if you heard one of the justice kitties purring the entire time. She's just relentless these days.

[Joshua Schiffer]

All right, have a good week, honey, and I'll talk to you soon.

[Cheryl (Legal Expert/Co-host)]

Bye, y'. All.

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[Joshua Schiffer]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.