Crime Stories with Nancy Grace: Zone 7 – The Serial Killer’s Apprentice

Episode: Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll
Date: September 28, 2025
Host: Cheryl McCollum (standing in for Nancy Grace)
Guests: Dr. Katherine Ramsland (Renowned Criminologist), Tracy Ullman (Executive Producer)
Theme: Delving into the Wayne Henley Jr./Dean Corll case, its implications for modern crime, and a forthcoming documentary with new revelations.

Episode Overview

This episode revisits the disturbing crimes of Dean Corll—the notorious "Candy Man" killer—and his teenage accomplice, Wayne Henley Jr. Cheryl McCollum leads a profound discussion with Dr. Katherine Ramsland and executive producer Tracy Ullman about their book and the upcoming ID Network documentary, focusing on the nuances of grooming, sex trafficking, and victim/perpetrator complexity. The conversation goes beyond the historical case to explore modern dangers, parallels with Jeffrey Epstein and John Wayne Gacy, and urgent lessons for today's society.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Documentary: Bringing the Story to Life

[02:36–05:55]

• Announcement: Dr. Ramsland shares the upcoming two-hour documentary based on their book, airing August 17 on the ID Network.
  • “There is yet more, really, to discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. It's quite a case, and it's disturbing, shocking, but so relevant for today.” – Dr. Ramsland [02:40]
• Medium Matters: The visuals, interview segments, and archival material offer new context unavailable in the book.
  • “You get footage… of them digging up some of the bodies and going into Dean Corll’s house and seeing what the torture implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley as a 17-year-old kid, skinny guy, talking to, weeping on the phone as he's talking to his mother.” – Dr. Ramsland [05:55]

2. Challenge of Adapting a Complex Case

[05:55–08:15]

• Condensing the vast story into two hours required prioritizing essential elements while balancing multiple perspectives.
• Tracy Ullman reflects on the collaborative, resourceful production process:
  • “We had a way of scrubbing through [Wayne’s] recordings by having them artificially intelligence and transcribed… This is how we're going to show the grooming that went on.” – Tracy Ullman [08:15]
• The goal: transport viewers to the social and emotional climate of early 1970s Houston, revealing how these crimes resonated nationally.

3. Themes of Grooming & Sex Trafficking

[10:54–13:18]

• Both the book and documentary highlight that grooming and trafficking weren’t just historic issues; they persist and, in some ways, evolve with modern technology.
  • “These predators are looking for partners. They're looking to groom kids to help them. ... Dean Corll picked two adolescent boys to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them… until they were in too deep to get out.” – Dr. Ramsland [11:13]
• Striking Parallels:
  • Cases like Jeffrey Epstein used similar manipulation techniques and networks, showing repeating patterns of abuse enabled by powerful enablers.

4. Modern Lessons & Relevance

[13:18–16:43]

• Children are now more vulnerable, as predators can access them digitally and in apparently safe spaces.
  • “Now the whole world has access to your child and even some of their own associates, other kids might be in on something.” – Dr. Ramsland [12:59]
• The challenge of recognizing warning signs and the critical need for adults to truly listen when children voice discomfort or distress.
  • “He tried to tell several people, adults. ... They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]

5. Victim, Perpetrator, or Both?

[19:29–22:34, 21:56]

• The documentary aims for balance—interviews with both victims’ families and those who view Henley as either a victim himself or an irredeemable perpetrator.
  • “Wayne is in this odd position of being both the victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult to try to find language to talk about someone like that.” – Dr. Ramsland [21:56]
• Guests urge empathy for adolescent decision-making under manipulation.

6. Sex Trafficking and Systemic Complicity

[13:18–14:58, 25:21]

• Many perpetrators (Corll, Gacy, Epstein) relied on networks of enablers—others cleared paths, maintained silence, and benefited.
  • “The modus operandi is the same across the board.” – Tracy Ullman [13:18]
  • “Somebody had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those photographs to a publisher. Somebody had to put together the magazine and then distribute it.” – Tracy Ullman [25:21]

7. The Documentary’s Intended Impact

[22:34–25:21, 32:33]

• Wayne Henley’s involvement—he participated with hope to prevent similar victimization by sharing his story honestly and fully.
  • “The essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody... People thought he was crazy or drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]
• The film aims to reach at-risk youth, but also educators, counselors, parents—anyone in a position to notice signs of abuse or trafficking.

8. Rethinking Remorse and Accountability

[38:57–43:54]

• Henley’s remorse is genuine, but his internalization of full blame was shaped by his trial and public narrative.
  • “When I first talked to him… he said, 'Don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this.'” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00]
• Both guests discuss Wayne’s evolving understanding—he was manipulated, was himself a child, and his culpability is not simple.
  • “He’s horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Corll. …He wanted to be a minister, and he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket Bible around with him.” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00–43:54]

9. Final Takeaways & Warnings

[32:33–37:16]

• The importance of scrutinizing authority and remaining vigilant even when “experts” or community leaders seem trustworthy.
  • “We have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and never redeemable, no matter what he says... That's something that I will be very frustrated if people decide to seize on language or parts of this story without viewing the entire body of information.” – Tracy Ullman [32:42]
• The need to challenge old narratives, weigh new evidence, and keep an open mind about both the complexity of crime and potential for rehabilitation.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Roots of Evil:
  • “Predators look specifically for places that people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe… They really want people to be off guard, to not see them coming. And they play a long game.” – Dr. Ramsland [15:27]
• On the Importance of Listening:
  • “Because the essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody. ... They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]
• On Child Perpetrators:
  • “Try being a young teen and understanding all of these kind of different ways… somebody like Dean Corll could manipulate you. It's very difficult, even as adults, to grasp.” – Tracy Ullman [19:29]
• On the Persistence of Dangerous Networks:
  • “When you think about them operating, they cannot operate successfully without others empowering them...” – Tracy Ullman [13:18]
• On Remorse and Changing Understanding:
  • “He doesn’t understand why people don’t think he’s capable of it.... He’s horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Corll.” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:36 — Introduction of Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman, announcement of documentary
• 05:55 — Challenges of condensing the story; emotional impact of visuals and survivor voices
• 11:13 — Grooming, manipulation, and the ongoing dangers for children today
• 13:18 — Systemic trafficking; contemporary parallels (Epstein, Gacy)
• 23:01 — Henley’s efforts to get help, being ignored, and the critical adult role
• 25:21 — The difficulty in reconciling perpetrator/victim status; production testimony
• 32:33 — Documentary’s intended lessons; resisting snap judgments
• 38:57 — Addressing Henley’s remorse and evolving understanding of his role

Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, empathetic, and deeply concerned with both justice and understanding. Dr. Ramsland brings a clinical yet compassionate perspective, while Tracy Ullman emphasizes the human stories and investigative challenges. Cheryl McCollum’s hosting is energetic, Southern in warmth, and always attuned to real-world implications for families and communities.

Useful Takeaways for Listeners

• The new documentary expands on a notorious case with new voices, a sharper focus on grooming and trafficking, and firsthand interviews.
• Predatory crimes are rarely solo efforts; powerful enablers and systemic cover-ups are often involved.
• Adolescent involvement in crime demands empathy, context, and recognition of manipulation.
• It is vital to listen—truly listen—when young people voice discomfort or fear.
• Old narratives deserve to be questioned as new evidence and understanding develop.
• The fight against grooming and trafficking is ongoing, and vigilance is required from all adults working with children.