Zone 7: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice - Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll

Summary

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace: Zone 7 – The Serial Killer’s Apprentice

Episode: Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll
Date: September 28, 2025
Host: Cheryl McCollum (standing in for Nancy Grace)
Guests: Dr. Katherine Ramsland (Renowned Criminologist), Tracy Ullman (Executive Producer)
Theme: Delving into the Wayne Henley Jr./Dean Corll case, its implications for modern crime, and a forthcoming documentary with new revelations.

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Episode Overview

This episode revisits the disturbing crimes of Dean Corll—the notorious "Candy Man" killer—and his teenage accomplice, Wayne Henley Jr. Cheryl McCollum leads a profound discussion with Dr. Katherine Ramsland and executive producer Tracy Ullman about their book and the upcoming ID Network documentary, focusing on the nuances of grooming, sex trafficking, and victim/perpetrator complexity. The conversation goes beyond the historical case to explore modern dangers, parallels with Jeffrey Epstein and John Wayne Gacy, and urgent lessons for today's society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Documentary: Bringing the Story to Life

[02:36–05:55]

• Announcement: Dr. Ramsland shares the upcoming two-hour documentary based on their book, airing August 17 on the ID Network.
  • “There is yet more, really, to discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. It's quite a case, and it's disturbing, shocking, but so relevant for today.” – Dr. Ramsland [02:40]
• Medium Matters: The visuals, interview segments, and archival material offer new context unavailable in the book.
  • “You get footage… of them digging up some of the bodies and going into Dean Corll’s house and seeing what the torture implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley as a 17-year-old kid, skinny guy, talking to, weeping on the phone as he's talking to his mother.” – Dr. Ramsland [05:55]

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2. Challenge of Adapting a Complex Case

[05:55–08:15]

• Condensing the vast story into two hours required prioritizing essential elements while balancing multiple perspectives.
• Tracy Ullman reflects on the collaborative, resourceful production process:
  • “We had a way of scrubbing through [Wayne’s] recordings by having them artificially intelligence and transcribed… This is how we're going to show the grooming that went on.” – Tracy Ullman [08:15]
• The goal: transport viewers to the social and emotional climate of early 1970s Houston, revealing how these crimes resonated nationally.

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3. Themes of Grooming & Sex Trafficking

[10:54–13:18]

• Both the book and documentary highlight that grooming and trafficking weren’t just historic issues; they persist and, in some ways, evolve with modern technology.
  • “These predators are looking for partners. They're looking to groom kids to help them. ... Dean Corll picked two adolescent boys to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them… until they were in too deep to get out.” – Dr. Ramsland [11:13]
• Striking Parallels:
  • Cases like Jeffrey Epstein used similar manipulation techniques and networks, showing repeating patterns of abuse enabled by powerful enablers.

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4. Modern Lessons & Relevance

[13:18–16:43]

• Children are now more vulnerable, as predators can access them digitally and in apparently safe spaces.
  • “Now the whole world has access to your child and even some of their own associates, other kids might be in on something.” – Dr. Ramsland [12:59]
• The challenge of recognizing warning signs and the critical need for adults to truly listen when children voice discomfort or distress.
  • “He tried to tell several people, adults. ... They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]

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5. Victim, Perpetrator, or Both?

[19:29–22:34, 21:56]

• The documentary aims for balance—interviews with both victims’ families and those who view Henley as either a victim himself or an irredeemable perpetrator.
  • “Wayne is in this odd position of being both the victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult to try to find language to talk about someone like that.” – Dr. Ramsland [21:56]
• Guests urge empathy for adolescent decision-making under manipulation.

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6. Sex Trafficking and Systemic Complicity

[13:18–14:58, 25:21]

• Many perpetrators (Corll, Gacy, Epstein) relied on networks of enablers—others cleared paths, maintained silence, and benefited.
  • “The modus operandi is the same across the board.” – Tracy Ullman [13:18]
  • “Somebody had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those photographs to a publisher. Somebody had to put together the magazine and then distribute it.” – Tracy Ullman [25:21]

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7. The Documentary’s Intended Impact

[22:34–25:21, 32:33]

• Wayne Henley’s involvement—he participated with hope to prevent similar victimization by sharing his story honestly and fully.
  • “The essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody... People thought he was crazy or drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]
• The film aims to reach at-risk youth, but also educators, counselors, parents—anyone in a position to notice signs of abuse or trafficking.

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8. Rethinking Remorse and Accountability

[38:57–43:54]

• Henley’s remorse is genuine, but his internalization of full blame was shaped by his trial and public narrative.
  • “When I first talked to him… he said, 'Don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this.'” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00]
• Both guests discuss Wayne’s evolving understanding—he was manipulated, was himself a child, and his culpability is not simple.
  • “He’s horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Corll. …He wanted to be a minister, and he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket Bible around with him.” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00–43:54]

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9. Final Takeaways & Warnings

[32:33–37:16]

• The importance of scrutinizing authority and remaining vigilant even when “experts” or community leaders seem trustworthy.
  • “We have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and never redeemable, no matter what he says... That's something that I will be very frustrated if people decide to seize on language or parts of this story without viewing the entire body of information.” – Tracy Ullman [32:42]
• The need to challenge old narratives, weigh new evidence, and keep an open mind about both the complexity of crime and potential for rehabilitation.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Roots of Evil:
  • “Predators look specifically for places that people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe… They really want people to be off guard, to not see them coming. And they play a long game.” – Dr. Ramsland [15:27]
• On the Importance of Listening:
  • “Because the essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody. ... They just ignored his cry for help.” – Dr. Ramsland [23:01]
• On Child Perpetrators:
  • “Try being a young teen and understanding all of these kind of different ways… somebody like Dean Corll could manipulate you. It's very difficult, even as adults, to grasp.” – Tracy Ullman [19:29]
• On the Persistence of Dangerous Networks:
  • “When you think about them operating, they cannot operate successfully without others empowering them...” – Tracy Ullman [13:18]
• On Remorse and Changing Understanding:
  • “He doesn’t understand why people don’t think he’s capable of it.... He’s horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Corll.” – Dr. Ramsland [42:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:36 — Introduction of Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman, announcement of documentary
• 05:55 — Challenges of condensing the story; emotional impact of visuals and survivor voices
• 11:13 — Grooming, manipulation, and the ongoing dangers for children today
• 13:18 — Systemic trafficking; contemporary parallels (Epstein, Gacy)
• 23:01 — Henley’s efforts to get help, being ignored, and the critical adult role
• 25:21 — The difficulty in reconciling perpetrator/victim status; production testimony
• 32:33 — Documentary’s intended lessons; resisting snap judgments
• 38:57 — Addressing Henley’s remorse and evolving understanding of his role

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, empathetic, and deeply concerned with both justice and understanding. Dr. Ramsland brings a clinical yet compassionate perspective, while Tracy Ullman emphasizes the human stories and investigative challenges. Cheryl McCollum’s hosting is energetic, Southern in warmth, and always attuned to real-world implications for families and communities.

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Useful Takeaways for Listeners

• The new documentary expands on a notorious case with new voices, a sharper focus on grooming and trafficking, and firsthand interviews.
• Predatory crimes are rarely solo efforts; powerful enablers and systemic cover-ups are often involved.
• Adolescent involvement in crime demands empathy, context, and recognition of manipulation.
• It is vital to listen—truly listen—when young people voice discomfort or fear.
• Old narratives deserve to be questioned as new evidence and understanding develop.
• The fight against grooming and trafficking is ongoing, and vigilance is required from all adults working with children.

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Transcript

[Cheryl McCollum]

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[Cheryl McCollum]

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[Cheryl McCollum]

Y'. All. They are back and we are so fortunate. Renowned criminologist Dr. Katherine Ramsland and executive producer Tracy Ullman are here tonight and they've got big news that I am so excited to share with all of y'.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

All.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Dr. Ramslet, welcome, welcome. And will you tell us what's happening?

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Well, it's great to be back here. The last time we were here, we had Wayne Henley with us as well. We did a couple with him and that was based on a book that we had written about his case. And now we have the documentary version of it, a two hour documentary on the ID Network on August 17, Sunday night so 9 to 11 Eastern time. And we're hoping that people will really respond to that. There's more in it than was in the book because There are people interviewed for the documentary that were not part of the book. So there is yet more, really, to discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. It's quite a case, and it's disturbing, shocking, but so relevant for today.

[Cheryl McCollum]

When I first learned about it, I got real excited. I figured there would be some people that weren't in the book. But anytime you can watch the person talk. And that includes you, Doctor, you know, you get to me. I get so much more from it. Like, I can, you know, hear the way you present it and, you know, that kind of thing. You know what I'm talking about?

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yeah, I do. And, you know, obviously, I'm interviewed on it, but also we have some excerpts from the many hours of taping that I did when I was talking to Wayne. So you have footage from the 1970s when all this happened. You have Wayne talking on tape to me. You have me talking about the case. You have other experts talking about the case. So it really is a different experience than reading the book, though. It's the same story.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, Traci, I mean, Obviously you and Dr. Ramsland are not strangers to TV, and you have even been the executive producer on a documentary. So this is familiar ground for you.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Right? Right.

[Tracy Ullman]

It was a pleasure to make this. And, you know, Kathryn and I partnered on the book, but we also worked very much hand in hand on the documentary because she was so essential to giving context to this story, of course.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, you know, the first thing I thought about was, man, that might be a little difficult to take this masterpiece that y' all have done and. And then put it in live form. But then I thought, that's what Dr. Ramsland does all the time.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

That's what I do.

[Cheryl McCollum]

That's what you do all the time. You take a textbook and you bring it to life. And, you know, Traci, the same for you. You take material, you take information, and you put it in film form. So I am so excited. August 17th. I cannot wait. But I have this question now, Dr. Ramsley, were there components that you found difficult to, like, take a chapter and then flip it into, like, a sound bite? Was there anything that was a challenge for you?

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

I think it was that I knew we're going to take a really large story and condense it down to two hours. So right off the bat, that's challenging. And then, of course, you want to figure out what. What is really essential to get across in this story, and who else are they going to be using to piece in. So for me, it was simply telling the story as I know it and reaching back to the 1970s when the Dean Corll story happened, when these murders happened, and to be able to talk about it in the clinical way that I typically have while viewers are watching these really horrendous images because you do get footage of them digging up some of the bodies and going into Dean Corll's house and seeing what the torture implements that were in there. Seeing Wayne Henley As a 17 year old kid, skinny guy, talking to, weeping on the phone as he's talking to his mother. So I think trying to get all that into a two hour show was challenging, but it worked well, I think. I've watched it a couple of times and I really enjoy the sort of way it's been packaged.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Well, you know, Traci, I'm Southern, so I love a good story and it's hard for me to condense anything. I mean, if somebody says, do you want ice cream? I don't want to just say yes or no. I want to tell them all like, you know, when I was a child, I loved. You know what I mean? So when I think of this book, there is a global picture that even when I was reading it, I thought, man, there is so much more that they're going to be able to connect from that book. It's not just Dean Corll. It's not. There's a lot more. If you look at crime in general, if you look at the way crime is committed, and I'm one of those people, if you take a theft or you take a murder, you can dissect both and get to the same motive.

[Tracy Ullman]

Yeah, I mean, you know, when we wrote the book together, Katherine really took the lead. My strength was that I had known Wayne for a few years before we connected Catherine. And then I was very much into the sex trafficking aspect of this story and uncovering that. So when we finally had to sit down with a team that included members of Dick Wolf Entertainment and ITV America, they hired in a what's called a showrunner, somebody who was going to give a look and feel to this story. His name was Alexis Roby. And then they also had a producer, Zoe Vock. And all of us did about five different jobs as we went through what we could possibly do with a small budget, a relatively small budget. And you know, in the end it was pretty incredible the amount of archive that we had to show what literally happened. And then we put in the recordings of Wayne. We had a way of scrubbing through those by having Them artificially intelligence and transcribed that way. And once we were looking through those things, we were able to discern, okay, this is going to be relevant to what we're talking about here. This is how we're going to show the grooming that went on. And once that cut was put together, then we had Dr. Ramsland come back in, and she was basically on a set where we kind of showed her talking with Elmo Wayne Henley. But there's a little bit of fakery that goes on that way. And once you have the story put together with all those different components, it really brings you back into the early 1970s in Houston and in America. And it really gives the context of we were a country that was. We were changed by these murders, and we didn't really know why or how until, you know, we really, you know, Dr. Ramslin and I dug into this, and I think now it's much more obvious what those changes ended up being.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And I think that's the global picture that interests me so much, because it's not just murder, like serial killer. Absolutely. But when you're talking about the grooming and the sex trafficking, those are elements that a lot of people do not realize are so ingrained in some of these cases.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

That's partly the takeaway from the book and the documentary, is to recognize that this isn't something deep in the past 50 years ago. This is about kids today just as much and even more so because they're more vulnerable than they were back in the 70s. And it's not just vulnerable to predators looking for prey. These predators are looking for partners. They're looking to groom kids to help them. That's essentially what we're talking about, is an adult. Dean Corll picked two adolescent boys to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them and more or less trapping them by using things that matter to them until they were in too deep to get out. And this is the thing that kids face today. They have. There are all kinds of sophisticated predators on the Internet looking for vulnerable kids to bring into the criminal enterprise they have. And we're seeing that right now with all the Epstein stuff, that kids can be recruited to recruit other kids. And on it goes. It's pretty horrifying. And we want people to understand what are the signals and what should they be doing when kids say they need help.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, doctor, that's something you have said, and I'm quoting here. There were hard lessons to learn to help us navigate today's world. That's what you're talking About.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yes, very much.

[Cheryl McCollum]

You know, there's a meme out there that it says something to the effect that it used to be you had to, you know, protect your child from one person. Well, now the whole world has access.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

To your child and even some of their own associates, other kids might be in on something.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Sure.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Finding ways to, you know, to exploit their trust.

[Cheryl McCollum]

So, Traci, I think the ultimate goal that y' all are trying to do with this documentary would be what? How would you condense it?

[Tracy Ullman]

I think that, you know, it is very relevant for Dr. Ramsland to mention Jeffrey Epstein in this instance, because we have this staring us in the face right now as a societal issue. And the modus operandi is the same across the board. When you talk about John Wayne Gacy, when you talk about Ding Coral, Jeffrey Epstein learned ways of operating that are directly related to these men. And when you think about them operating, they cannot operate successfully without others empowering them, other people in power clearing the way so that they don't get arrested, so that they do have access to other victims as well as other people that will be paying for their services. And so, you know, Dr. Ramsland and I were discussing earlier, we don't know half as much as we should about the Jeffrey Epstein case, because with everything else being comparable to these other cases, is there any form of pornography that surrounds this case? Are there any murders that surround this case? These are questions that have not yet been answered. They haven't been asked, really. And so when you have a modus operandi that's copied over and over again, what elements have people copied? And, you know, we're just trying to give an example of what's possible as part of this story.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, you know, Dr. Tracy brings up a great point. The young man that just murdered the mom and dad that were walking with the two little girls in the state park, one of the first things I said is he will have pornography on all of his devices. Child pornography, specifically. I think the children were his target. I think those parents probably thought, we're together, we're in a state park, we could not be safer.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yeah. And I don't want to make it seem as if every place in the world is dangerous, but on the other hand, predators look specifically for places that people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe. I mean, he was a teacher. He. He was an ordinary looking guy, aside from the strange hair, but he was an ordinary looking guy. And so they. They really want people to. To be off guard, to. To not see them coming. And they play a long game. Quite often they, they will groom a whole neighborhood, a whole whole town, a whole city to believe certain things about them so that they can operate under the radar. And, and I think we don't know that much yet about his motivation and background. We know some things but I think as it's going to come out, you're probably right that he was certainly out there targeting possibly those kids. But yeah, he was a dangerous individual who found a safe, a seemingly safe place to operate.

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[Cheryl McCollum]

Tracy when you're looking at the documentary and y' all have added people that are not in the book and the interviews, so you're going to have information that's maybe new to y'. All. How did y' all craft that if it was something that y' all were not privy to before?

[Tracy Ullman]

I think the thing we wanted to do was to get everyone back into Houston in the early 1970s. We did not want to say, okay, we've got all of this noise going on. With 50 years having passed from this case, we want to bring you back into Elmer Wayne Henley's world. And so one of his best friends at the time, Angela Michaels, she was able to talk about what a good person this was. We were able to talk about them going to concerts, what an average individual this person was. And so to think about Amoe and Henley before all this becomes publicized, you start to see a teenager who really would never have gone in this direction if he weren't guided there, if he weren't manipulated and threatened. We talked with one of his fellow Cub Scouts, Mark Nelson, and you just get this mundane picture of a community that comes together at the Henley household. And these Cub Scouts meet up and they're talking about all sorts of activities. And the Henley parents, you know, Mary and Elmer Sr. Are, you know, guiding these meetings, and all the kids respect them, and there is no sign of anything untoward until you see that family start to break down. You start to see the insertion of Dean Corll and his methods of grooming, and everything takes a sharp right turn in the wrong direction. And as a teenager, Elmer Wayne Henley doesn't have the ability to stop that. He's responding to all sorts of insecurities, all sorts of lack of intelligence that you might have as an adult. And for so long, we kind of superimposed on him. Well, he should have known. Will you try being a young teen and understanding all of these kind of different ways, you know, somebody like Dean Corll could manipulate you. It's very difficult, even as adults, to grasp.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

I think it's important to also point out about the documentary is that it is balanced. We have relatives of victims talking on it. We have law enforcement discussing it. We have people who just don't think that Wayne was a good guy, and we have people who do. So you're really getting a balanced picture of the response to the crimes and the fact that Wayne is in this odd position of being both the victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult to try to find language to talk about someone like that.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Sure. And here's the deal. When he's been on Zone 7 twice, he has stated very clearly he wants to help at least one child. That's his whole purpose for working with the two of you. And now being a part of the documentary, how do you think this is going to maybe affect him? Like, I know y' all have talked to him. I mean, is he excited about it?

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yeah, I think he feels that it was worthwhile. I mean, it was a long process and with ups and downs as documentary making can be. But I think he is happy to have finally have had the opportunity to tell his story fully without being having it distorted in some manner, as has happened to him before, and that this could potentially reach not just kids who could be in trouble, but counselors and teachers and parents who deal with kids who need to understand how important it is to listen. Because the essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody. He tried to tell several people, adults. He tried to get away several times. This is something that's not well known about him. But what happened is people thought he was crazy or drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his cry for help. And he wants people to understand, you have to listen, no matter what it sounds like, you have to at least try to help these kids. And I think he believes that this will, in fact, achieve that goal.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, Tracey, you know, I have watched Court go from just some people like the prosecution and the defense standing and talking, to almost more theatrical. They have, you know, video now. They have all kind of charts and graphs that can move and you can show things and real time. Traci, to me, when I think of what this documentary could do for Wayne, especially with Katherine talking to him, is how they're going to make it look correct.

[Tracy Ullman]

Correct.

[Cheryl McCollum]

That people are going to have the opportunity to hear him in a way that I don't think they could in the book. But this will give them an opportunity to say, wait a minute, he was a victim, then he became a perpetrator. Now he's trying to help. So again, for you, being a documentary executive producer, that is part of the story that I would want to really bring to light.

[Tracy Ullman]

It was such a privilege to be able to match up story points with what Dr. Ramsland and Wayne Henley were discussing. But I must admit, I was in charge of scripting the second episode and the very Exciting part of that for me was the very last act where we start to ask our participants both for and against Wayne Henley. Now that you know that this had to do with sexual trafficking, where there was pornography generated of the victims, how do you feel about that? And to have one of the victim's family members say, look, somebody had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those photographs to a publisher. Somebody had to put together the magazine and then distribute it. That for me, as people are reflecting the thoughts of that insult to injury for the victims, that was a very exciting part of putting that together. To really bring those voices to a symphony that describes sex trafficking and what really happened in this case. And that has never been done before.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Unbelievable. And you know, doctor, you and Tracy were so gracious to allow me to talk to him with y' all twice. And I know how that affected me. I mean, for days and days I just kept replaying some things that he said and knowing the background and knowing the crimes, I can't imagine for you, this is in some way it's a testament to your career, but it's also, again, using your genius to help other people so that laypeople, teachers, parents, counselors, football coaches can get this information.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

That's what I'm hoping for. And I will say I didn't actually expect it was going to move in this direction when I had one of the original notions about Henley being a bad kid who sold his friends for money to this predator. Because that was the original notion that was, was passed around in the original true crime books about this. But I wanted to talk with him because he seemed, in one brief interview, he about his artwork. He seemed intelligent and self reflective. And I thought, well, maybe, maybe I have something to learn. And so I'm hoping that is the same effect on other people who've already made up their minds based on outdated information and even incorrect information. I hope that's the same experience they will have when they listen to him and they see what this case really was about and which was not represented in the original accounts of this case.

[Cheryl McCollum]

I mean, it's an unbelievable window into just the most horrific types of crime that again target children. And I'm going to go back to the young man we were talking about in the state park. He not only was a teacher, but he got that job over and over and over in different states. So they're there and they're going to, you know, go to the places where they can get to the victims of choice.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

And let's not forget the female teacher who is also recently caught engaging in a relationship with an underage child. It's not just guys.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Oh, absolutely. Excellent point. Yes. And that's the thing. If you're wanting to be with a child of a certain age, then you're going to be a little league football coach or you're going to teach at elementary school. You're going to be a mall Santa. You're going to gravitate to those jobs.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yeah, there's all kinds of ways in if you really determined.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Of course.

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[Cheryl McCollum]

Tracy, what do you think when the documentary is out and people are going to be able to engage and talk about it and hopefully start asking some questions, what do you want them to be able to take away from it to use immediately?

[Tracy Ullman]

You know, there's. I actually want to kind of flip that question if it's okay. What I don't want.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Honey, you flip anything you want.

[Tracy Ullman]

Thank you. I'm here flipping. But the thing that I don't want people to take away are people who are dead set in seeing this individual as one of the worst criminals of all time. You know, the things that he did while he was under the influence of a complete, you know, completely manipulative, dangerous individual. The things that he did were not things that he would have done had he not met that person. And so when you think about him committing murder, we have to put that in context. And if people are constantly banging the drum of this is a more than 50 year old narrative, the narrative has to stick. We have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and never redeemable, no matter what he says and no matter what new information we have. That's something that I will be very frustrated if people decide to seize on language or parts of this story without viewing the entire body of information. What I would hope people do is they say, oh my goodness, I can't believe. And this was the same for the investigation into John Wayne Gacy. And I think it will prove out in the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein is that what we've had here are people that are in power who have access to these illicit activities. They exploit them, they benefit from expressing their perversions, and then they get to write the history that we've now had for the past 50 years, assigning Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. All of the viciousness in these crimes. And what I want people to take away from is, no, this was a child. This afternoon, Dr. Ramsland and I were saying, can we accurately get the age at which Amway and Henley would have been involved in these crimes? We went between 14 and 15 years old. And the conclusion we both came to is that's still very young. When I imagine my three children being that age, these are not capable individuals. These are still fully forming individuals. And so I just feel as though if we can look at this, with the new information, then we see how many people prevented Dean Corll being discovered earlier. How many people must have known he was creating pornography. How many people must have known that they were purchasing his pornography and that there was a ring that surrounded him that was, you know, very wealthy and very connected. So what we want to walk away from is let's take a good look at who we're dealing with. Let's understand why that individual might be making a suggestion about taking our kids and kind of, you know, doing things with them that are. It just doesn't make sense. Why don't we go ahead and question authority a little bit more? That's what I'm hoping people will walk away with. Not that they will be afraid of anyone, but that they will be more informed about how to behave in these situations and not take situations in which authorities are presented to us and take them just lock, stock, and barrel. Everything that they do. Oh, that must make sense. I did a lot of research into the former speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, as a result of looking into these cases. And when I think about how many victims Dennis Hastert had, even though he continued to progress in power and status and wealth, and you look back on him now and you think, you know, it's just horrible that we empowered him, and we shouldn't be letting people get away with these things.

[Cheryl McCollum]

And, you know, Doc, she mentioned Gacy, and, you know, he was part of a sex ring. I thought that was going to come out at Delphi, that there was a sex ring. When I first heard that one man was texting one of the victims and said, hey, meet me at the bridge on this day, this time. And there just happened to be a second individual, a child killer, on that same bridge at the same date and time. I thought, surely these people know each other. And then they were found on the property of another man that had a background. And I just thought, this has got to be a ring.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

I don't know that. It's definitely not. The problem with relying on the information we have is that there's a cognitive error we make, that all the information we have is all there is, and that's not necessarily true. There could be things we will find out later or which will never be uncovered, but which are nevertheless true. I'm not trying to feed a conspiracy theory here, but I always am very careful about saying that we have the final story on any case, because I've watched just this case, for example. I've watched how it evolved as we've Come up with more and more information. There's still stuff being found that we weren't even able to add in because it's only been found recently. So I think that I wouldn't say definitively there wasn't one or that we'll never find out. I think that is a case that has some dark spaces. Yet still, I think I would agree.

[Cheryl McCollum]

With you 100% because I've even said I can't fathom the coincidence that would take. I imagine y' all get a lot of questions, but I bet one is about Wayne. Did he ever have any remorse, or does he have remorse now?

[Tracy Ullman]

You know, having spoken with him on a regular basis, sometimes twice a week for the past five years, we've had many discussions about Wayne's remorse and how he wished. You know, one of the first conversations that him and I actually had, starting in March of 2020, was I said, did you realize that you were part of a sex trafficking ring? And he said he was very intimidated by that. He said, I don't think I know what you're referring to. I said, I need you to know that a lot of your victims appeared in pornography that you had no responsibility for. I said, that pornography was distributed over years and found again and again in various collections. And him hearing this was just mind blowing to him. He had never even considered it. He had heard of a syndicate. He had understood there might be other people in Dallas associated with Dean Corll, but he had never been able to. He just wanted to follow along with what had been told to him in court. You are responsible for these murders that you've committed, and you will forever be at the receiving end of guilt. And he just kind of banged that drum all along. And so once we started talking about, wait, this is a reality, that you are not the sole apprentice of this individual. More than likely, there were apprentices before you that no longer existed when you got there. And then to kind of bring him into police records that he had never had access to, that they knew right away that there was pornography of the victims, that they started to associate this with an individual in Dallas named John David Norman. But that this individual, who was arrested initially for having 4 tons of child pornography in Dallas, managed to escape on bond to the suburbs of Chicago, uniting with associates of John Wayne Gacy. When you think about that whole large scenario, I think that Wayne finally got some relief in the idea that, wait, I was not old enough to consent to this. I didn't even understand maybe what was happening and the behaviors that I experienced were merely for surviving survival. And that. That was something that I think both of us had to convince him of instead of just that he was responsible for every single murder that happened.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Yeah. And so when I first talked to him, one of the very first things he said to me was, don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this. I thought, wow, what a. What a way to introduce yourself. And, you know, but I. I knew that eventually I would be introducing him to the literature from ne psychology and the teenage brain and, you know, things like that. That would help him understand much more about how easily kids are to manipulate. And, you know, I didn't want him necessarily to take a stance of resistance, but. But repeatedly, he has expressed remorse, and he doesn't understand why people don't think he's capable of it, which was the. The idea, you know, back when he was trying to do some media in the 1980s and 90s, people just didn't believe that he could be genuine or have any real deep feeling about being remorseful. But he's horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Corll. And he. As he says in the documentary, I'm still living my life inside Dean Corll, because I'm here because of Dean Corll. And these are not the things I would have ever wanted to do. He wanted to be a minister, and he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket Bible around with him. And, you know, that's somebody who's not a person who wanted to bring harm to others. And so I think that it's hard for him to understand. Why do people question his ability to feel the remorse that he says he has? And yet we do come across that a lot.

[Cheryl McCollum]

That's powerful. And I just appreciate you both. I mean, y' all know how I feel about your work. It is invaluable, and it is something that needs to be in the hands of every teacher and counselor and parent and coach and anybody that deals with children any in any way. So I just appreciate you both, and congratulations on the documentary. That is significant, and it is well earned and deserved.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Thank you.

[Tracy Ullman]

Thank you so much. We really appreciate you, Cheryl.

[Cheryl McCollum]

Anytime. Anytime, y'. All. I'm gonna end Zone 7 the way that I always do, with a quote. Some people still to stay alive, and some people still to feel alive. Simple as that. From A Darker Shade of magic. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone 7.

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