The Witness

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Crime Writers On... – "The Witness" (June 22, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Crime Writers On..., hosts Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn are joined by regular panelists Laura Bricker and Toby Ball to review the Netflix dramatized miniseries The Witness, which revisits the infamous 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell. This dramatization serves as a companion to the documentary The Murder of Rachel Nickell, with a focus on the crime’s impact on Rachel’s partner Andre and their young son Alex, who witnessed her murder. The panel weighs the effectiveness of the dramatization, its approach to sensitive material, and its value alongside the documentary. They close the episode with their thumbs up/thumbs down verdicts and their always-entertaining "Crime of the Week."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The 'True Crime Dramatization' Trend

• Parallel Productions:

  • Rebecca and Kevin note Netflix’s recent trend of adapting real-life crimes into both documentaries and scripted dramas (e.g., "Dahmer", "Gone Girl").
  • "The Witness" and its documentary were produced by the same studio but without creative overlap.
    ➡️ [07:24] Kevin: “There’s no staff overlap… both use actual footage from the case, news coverage… other than that, they’re somewhat separate.”

• British Media Perspective:

  • In the UK, Rachel Nickell’s case is infamous and heavily covered; some question retelling it yet again. However, British press praised the show’s restraint and focus on the family.
    ➡️ [08:39] Laura: “In England, everybody knows this story… so the question was, is there really another need to tell this story again?”

2. Narrative Structure & Pacing

• Slow Moving, Superficial Treatment:

  • Toby criticizes the pacing and surface-level exploration of both the police investigation and the family drama.
  • He notes scenes that felt more like bullet points than fully developed narrative arcs. ➡️ [06:29] Toby: “I found this to be incredibly boring… It just felt like a complete slog.”

• Disjointed Timelines:

  • Laura found the investigation timeline confusing, especially compared to the straightforward documentary. ➡️ [13:53] Laura: “I had a harder time following the timeline of the police investigation in this one as opposed to the documentary.”

3. Themes & Emotional Focus

• Moving Forward vs. Closure:

  • The family’s struggle revolves around Andre’s obsession with closure and Alex’s wish to escape the ever-present shadow of the crime. ➡️ [26:00] Toby: “I think in the more intimate family portion…it was really about sort of moving forward versus seeking closure.”

• The Effects of Trauma:

  • The panel discusses whether Alex’s disaffection stems more from the original trauma or from years under his father’s protectionist shadow. ➡️ [26:00] Toby: “Is it this extremely traumatic moment…or is it the following years in which he's living in this state, this sort of embattled existence?”

4. Police, Press, and the Public

• Tabloid Portrayal:

  • Laura and Kevin debate the realism of the show’s “stampeding tabloids” motif. ➡️ [15:26] Laura: “They really seem to be everywhere…at the police station, they're at the crime scene…” ➡️ [16:43] Kevin: “Do you really think there were like two dozen reporters outside Andre’s house yelling all day for months?… That part always feels very heavy handed to me.”

• Investigation Arc – Weak or Incomplete?

  • The procedural storyline was widely seen as lacking suspense, depth, and clarity.
  • Key moments were rushed, especially the investigative “honey trap” subplot.

5. Performances & Characterization

• Strong Acting Amid Weak Material:

  • The cast is competent, with notable praise for Josiah Williams (“baby Alex”). ➡️ [28:07] Kevin: “I thought baby Alex did a good job. Not Baby Yoda-like, but definitely baby Alex was good…that's kind of a tough job at that age.”

• Underdeveloped Supporting Roles:

  • Toby complains about thinly-drawn secondary characters (e.g., the au pair, the girlfriend) popping up only to deliver exposition.
    ➡️ [37:49] Toby: “I'd forgotten about the au pair…she's in there for two scenes, so she can say, ‘I know it's not my place, but…’ and then Andre says, ‘Yeah, it's not your place.’”

6. Adaptation Choices: Missed Opportunities

• Dramatization vs. Documentary:
  • Kevin and Toby both regret the exclusion of a key real-life scene from the documentary, where Andre finally reaches his breaking point during a re-enactment with his son. ➡️ [34:23] Kevin: “When the investigators took young Alex back to the park…he starts to cry…Andre loses it…That would have explained much more of a character’s motivation.”
  • Panelists wish the dramatization had focused more tightly either on the family struggle or the investigation, rather than trying to balance both in three hours.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "This just felt super, super slow to me. It was just hard to find anything to really grab onto…thinking there were some World Cup games I could be watching."
  — Toby Ball, [06:29]

• “In England, everybody knows this story. This story has been told over and over again. So to us, this is new; to them, it would be like…‘Why are we hearing about O.J. Simpson again?’”
  — Laura Bricker, [08:39]

• “The most terrible part is that they somehow managed to cast actors who aren't as good looking as the real people, because the real people are so freaking good looking.”
  — Rebecca Lavoie, [10:32]

• “I had a harder time following the timeline…as opposed to the documentary…with the police investigation, is this past or present?”
  — Laura Bricker, [13:53]

• “It just felt like it goes very fast and very superficially through a bunch of things…It just drained any suspense, any sense of stakes, any kind of emotional connection.”
  — Toby Ball, [43:32] (thumbs down review)

• “It was understated, quiet, sensitively told. The balance wasn’t quite there…Too much personal, at the expense of the police investigation.”
  — Rebecca Lavoie, [46:05] (thumbs sideways)

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Thumbs Up / Thumbs Down Reviews (Starting [42:05])

• Laura Bricker:
  Mild Thumbs Up: Appreciates the emotional focus on the family, finds it an interesting companion to the documentary, but notes the procedural elements are weak.

• Toby Ball:
  Thumbs Down: Finds it rushed, superficial, lacking stakes. Thinks the script is the core problem despite good acting.

• Kevin Flynn:
  Mild Thumbs Up: Underlying story is strong, likes focus on aftermath and impact, suggests it works best as a companion to the documentary.

• Rebecca Lavoie:
  Thumbs Sideways: Not as bad as expected, performances are fine, wishes for tighter narrative balance between personal and investigative threads.

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Crime Writers On introductions: [01:03]
• Review and discussion of ‘The Witness’: [04:39]–[41:35]
  • Discussion of dramatization structure/trend: [07:24]
  • British perspective & need for retelling: [08:39]
  • Pacing and narrative blending issues: [06:29], [11:08]
  • Tabloid portrayal & realism: [15:03]
  • Child witness trauma depiction: [30:03]
  • Character performances discussion: [28:07]
  • Adaptation vs. documentary moments: [34:23], [37:49]
• Thumbs up/down review roundtable: [42:05]–[46:05]
• Crime of the Week segment: [46:05]–[49:08]

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Panel Tone & Takeaways

• The panel’s tone is candid, lightly cynical, and full of the good-natured, sharply observant banter fans love.
• The Witness is praised for its restraint and family focus but dinged for being both emotionally and narratively scattered.
• The hosts agree that the documentary is the superior, more insightful way to learn about the Rachel Nickell case, but the dramatization is a decent—if not essential—companion for those intrigued by the family’s experience in the aftermath of trauma.

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For listeners choosing between the documentary and the scripted version, start with the documentary for clarity; watch ‘The Witness’ if you’re interested in the emotional ripple effects dramatized—with moderate expectations.

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Transcript

[Greta Johnson]

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official podcast. Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tinks (It's Me Tanks)]

Hi besties, it's Tinks. If you need a little inspo, a little tough love, or just someone to tell you that everything is going to be okay, come hang out with me on my podcast. It's me, Tanks. We talk dating, confidence, friendships healing, leveling up, and all the things we're working on together. I share my frameworks, your questions, and yes, plenty of chaotic stories. New episodes drop every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. So whether you're on your hot girl walk, commuting or hiding from your ex on Instagram, I've got you. Listen to it's me Tanks wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

To get the crime writers on after

[Patreon Announcer]

show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimedia

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts and on this episode, a father tries to protect his son after he witnesses a brutal crime. Will the hunt for a serial killer bring them closure or more pain? We'll discuss the Netflix dramatized series the Witness. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast, My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hello, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady and author of the Final Curtain. It's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And finally, it's our captain of all things cynical. Author of a city trilogy of novels, host of Rip Current, more like Ancient Strange Rivals and our Patreon Deep Dive Book club podcast, it's Toby Ball. Hola, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

Hola. Buenas.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What's coming up on Thursday's program?

[Kevin Flynn]

On Thursday we're gonna talk about new podcast from cbc. It is season two of Hunting Warhead. It's called Hunting the Suicide Salesman.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

Kind of a tough listen if you couldn't guess. Not a laugh a minute, is it?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Almost as much of a tough listen as the one about child sexual abuse that Damon Fairless also did.

[Kevin Flynn]

That had at least one funny moment in it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What was that?

[Kevin Flynn]

That was when they arrested. They did the raid and the guy's buddy had no idea what was going on and the FBI grabbed him and he looked at him and the roommate was like, yeah, Mondays.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh my God. All right, so a funny thing and

[Kevin Flynn]

a horrible episode in a horrible season.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's right. Well, it was really good, actually.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, subject matter was horrible.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

The podcast was great. Yeah. Yeah. So guys, I just had the most embarrassing on mic zoom moment in the history of workplaces at my job.

[Kevin Flynn]

Were you pantsless?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Right before I start came down here to tape this podcast. We were having an all staff meeting about a serious topic that the whole staff had been asked to weigh in on. And we went into breakout groups and it was a kind of serious and internal work stuff and I had to present and I presented. And after I was done, I muted my mic and turned off my camera and I bent down to pick up our 15 year old dog so I could check his dog socks. He has these pads in the bottom of his feet that stop skid somehow.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's not the most embarrassing thing about this.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And he said, leaning into the mic,

[Laura Bricker]

you're a precious boy.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That loud and in that voice, oh,

[Laura Bricker]

that's kind of embarrassing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Whole place ground to a halt. And it was, it was. Well, luckily I don't embarrass easily, but it also wasn't as bad as the other guy that time who was ordering double stacks at Wendy's on an open mic in the all staff meeting.

[Kevin Flynn]

But yeah, he was going through the drive through at Wendy's while everyone was having a meeting.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, and his nickname ever since then has been double stacks.

[Kevin Flynn]

Double stacks.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So I guess I'm gonna be precious boy from forever.

[Kevin Flynn]

There you go, Precious.

[Laura Bricker]

You're a precious boy.

[Toby Ball]

Could be worse.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're a precious boy. Yeah, I actually pulled the tape from the zoom and I cut it as a clip and I'm gonna add it to my soundboard for. Something's off. So, Kevin, should we talk about the scripted series we're here to discuss?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Okay, leading off, listen, there's been an accident.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Mommy's been killed and she's gone. She won't be coming back.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

As Andre deals with the shock of his girlfriend's brutal murder, he reluctantly allows police to question the only witness to the crime, his two year old son. When the interviews prove too traumatic and press coverage too intrusive, Andre flees to London with Alex, but finds putting the past behind them is difficult.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

I get that you blame the police. I do. But this isn't about them and it's not about me. This is about you. Don't you dare bring Mum into this. I don't want to remember my mother for her death. I want to remember her for her life.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Meanwhile, using information from the toddler police home in on a man who shares his violent sexual fantasies with an undercover cop, detectives are sure they've got Rachel Nickell's killer, even though a similar murder suggests a different suspect.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

They lived in Plumstead. This is Wimbledon. Yeah, I see where you're going. But the scenes are close enough and the crime's rare enough for it to be worth a visit, don't you think?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Netflix's the Witness is a dramatized version of the infamous 1992 case and a companion series to the documentary the Murder of Rachel Nickell. The show focuses on father and son as Rachel's unsolved murder adds strain to their relationship. It also follows the detectives efforts to close the case. And even though their assumptions about their lead suspect take them in the wrong direction. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from the Witness. So if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Toby, this series really kept you up, huh? It kept you awake and alive and invigorated.

[Toby Ball]

I, you know, I don't know if it had been different if we. We hadn't watched the documentary last week about this, but I found this to be incredibly boring. I just felt like a complete slog. And I've got some theories about why, which can get into later. But it's been a while. Like we've watched some stuff that's kind of sucked, but it's kind of moved along and this just felt super, super slow to me. And it was just hard to find anything to really grab onto. So it was just kind of watching the minutes pass by and thinking that there were some World cup games I could be watching.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I think that was the problem. I'm gonna diagnose you with World cup itis. That was probably the issue. So Kevin, we've seen from like Ryan Murphy and so forth that they've been doing this lately on Netflix where there's a documentary and then a scripted version that comes out concurrently. Was there overlap in this production, do you know?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting take on, you know, an idea on presenting the story like you say, Ryan Murphy did it with oh, what was it? The Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. Right. And right now, there's. For this, there's no creative team overlap. Like, the director didn't also direct, you know, that Also what did we have? The Gone Girl one who was the.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, Liz Garbus.

[Kevin Flynn]

She ended up, you know, doing the, you know, the movie version of the book, but then also did the documentary version, which was not that long ago. There's no staff overlap. They're both produced by STV Studios, and both, like, you know, use, like, actual footage from the case, news coverage from back in the day. So there's a couple of visual overlaps, but other than that, it seems like it's. They're somewhat separate.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Lara, one of the things I love about reviewing media with you is that you always do, like, a little bit of a deep dive. You're the one who looks at the website presentation that goes with podcasts, you Wikipedia cases to sort of see what the outcome is or what maybe wasn't a documentary. And I see from your notes here that you looked up some British media around this project. What did you find there?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, so I think one of the things that was interesting, I was reading some of the commentary on this show, not documentary, but this dramatization of this case in the British press, and there are people that were, like, appreciating that. It doesn't dwell upon the murder. But at the same time, there was a lot of, like, does this story need to be told again? Because in England, everybody knows this story. This story has been told over and over again. So to us, this is new to them, it would be like, if we're like, why are we hearing about, like, O.J. simpson again? Or why are we hearing about something

[Rebecca Lavoy]

again that we all know about Ramsey?

[Laura Bricker]

So the question was just like, is there really another need to tell this story again, given that there has been a lot of prior media coverage on this case that happened now, like, decades ago. But at the same time, I think that the production quality of this, I thought was, you know, done in a way that was tasteful, that highlighted the family dynamics and, you know, really kept this on, you know, the father and the son. Well, it did put some of the, you know, investigation back. So I think it was a different. It was a different type of telling. And the fact that Andre and Alex were both involved in this, I think also gives it some credibility in that bigger sort of picture, in that bigger body of work about this case.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I went on a crime scene with Sarah Carradine last week, and we Actually talked about the murder of Rachel Nickell, the documentary. And by the way, I got this shirt from the other crime scene guest, Sarah D. Bunting, from her store. Everyone gets a shirt. Get a shirt that says allegedly from exhibit B books you can order online. It came very quickly anyway. And Sarah Carradine told me that she thought this drifted thing before I watched it was like, terrible. And I was like watching it and I'm like, waiting for the terrible parts. To me, the most terrible part is that they somehow managed to cast actors who aren't as good looking as the real people, because the real people are so freaking good looking.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hey, ugly actors need work too.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

But they're not ugly.

[Kevin Flynn]

They're not ugly.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

They're just not as good looking as Audrey and Alex. But I actually found it sort of quiet and unsensational too. And I appreciated that they didn't show the murders at all. Like, they just didn't do that. And, you know, that's something you can do with a scripted series. And they chose not to appreciate that. So. Toby, there's more than one story being told in this series, and the Rachel Nickel documentary was very straightforward. Do you think combining narratives works here?

[Toby Ball]

No. In a word, I think maybe if it had been longer, which I hate to say about something I was bored by, but it just didn't feel like there was enough depth to either story to really maintain at least my interests. The whole investigation thing seemed to be completely devoid of any kind of suspense or sense of urgency or, or anything like that. It was just kind of happening and, you know, it's kind of moving along. It would be nice if they solved it, but you didn't really get a sense that a whole lot was at stake there other than having some closure.

[Rachel Dimita]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

And then the personal thing, you know, I just kind of felt like it was like a bullet list, you know, where it was just like, okay, then this happens, and then this happens. There's a whole bunch of scenes that they have with other people that have no context and are then never seen again. Like there's a dinner party they go to where he pulls a knife on his dad and it's just like, what the hell's going on?

[Kevin Flynn]

They're letting her down.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Your mother would be ashamed with how you're acting right now. Okay, eat the fish. Worse than the police. Eat the food,

[Toby Ball]

Never see them again. These older skateboard guys that Alex is, is hanging out with again, they're basically just there so he can smoke a joint or try a dangerous skateboard trick. There's a girlfriend who shows up, who's in two scenes and who I think is essentially there so that he can have like an interior monologue that he can deliver to somebody. And she's there for that. So I just kind of felt like the whole thing just felt kind of undercooked and that if they done one or the other or just made them both longer, like maybe in a little more depth it would have made more sense. But I just kind of felt like. It felt like kind of an outline of two different stories and not like actual fleshed out stories. And that was. That was part of, I think, why I found it kind of boring. Is that it? I was just like, okay, there's a new scene with these, like, what kind of dysfunctional little thing is going to happen in this scene? What dysfunctional thing is going to happen in this scene? You know, it just. It didn't seem very compelling.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You know, to be fair, Toby, you're all here for the purpose of me to have someone to do exposition with. So just FYI.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get our lines beforehand, as everybody knows.

[Rachel Dimita]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Lara, as I said to Kevin earlier, it is a very straightforward documentary that we watched and they sort of play with time and going forward and backward and forward and backward. In this, meanwhile, there is a linear police investigation. Do you feel like the timelines were confusing?

[Laura Bricker]

Yes. I had a harder time following the timeline of the police investigation in this one as opposed to the documentary. I was like, is that how it happened in the documentary? I was like, was it really that far afterwards that this happened? Okay, when did this happen? And I think with this one, I could follow what was happening with Alex and Andre based on the age and where they were at. But with the police investigation, I little bit like, is this past or present? When is this happening? So I think because of that. But to me, that wasn't necessarily the central focus of this series. I think the focus of this was on the aftermath of. On this father and son and how they navigated these ensuing years after her murder.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

What exactly am I lying about? You've always said it was the world you don't trust, but that's just not true, is it? It's me. My whole life, you've always thought I was gonna get in some kind of trouble. That's not true, Alex. What if it's not me? It's fucked up. What if it's you, Alex?

[Laura Bricker]

But I just. I definitely felt like that the police procedural part of this didn't really work with the rest of it for me.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Hmm. What about the tabloids, Lara? Because I think there is a portrayal of British media in this that we've kind of seen before, but it seems a little bit ham fisted and overwhelming in this series. You know, like the banging on the door, the trying to get inside, all that stuff. What did you think about those parts? Did they work for you?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I mean, I think it really gave a sense and I think we sort of stereotypically, at least I do here in the U.S. think of the British pests and the British tabloids as being really relentless. Like, you think about the royal family and how, you know, they are so closely watched. And in this one, they really seem to be everywhere. They're at the police station, they're at the crime scene. They're like, when they go to that. That house, out wherever that was, you know, that was kind of very big, but also very remote. All of a sudden they're out there at, you know, the gate calling for him and wanting to talk to him.

[Tinks (It's Me Tanks)]

Alex.

[Kevin Flynn]

Alex, how you doing?

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

It's Pete Collier.

[Laura Bricker]

And so I think for me, what I took away from that was this family trying to come to terms with what happened and really being under this microscope to the point that then they're like, we're just gonna leave the country at this point. And you know, when you're seeing Alex not telling anybody what happened and you're seeing the father, Andre, really shielding him and not even telling the teachers what is in his background because of that microscope that they were under, you know, that for me worked better than the police procedural part of this.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Kevin? You have a note about the tabloid representation as well.

[Kevin Flynn]

I mean, do you really think there were like two dozen reporters outside Andre's house yelling all day for months?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

You think that? No, no, I don't think that either. So that that part, like, always feels very.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What's happening at Nancy Guthrie's house.

[Kevin Flynn]

But I mean, this always sort of feels very heavy handed to me. Like, you know, it's every time you look out the window, there's a whole army of people that are there just shouting. We do know, because we hear from the real Andre, that, yeah, I mean, there was the media pressure. Wanted to get away, wanted to keep this low profile, but it ends up playing into this idea that they are so press averse that he keeps a go bag by the door and has kept it there for years just in case a reporter finds out where they are. Like they're in the mafia or something like that. And I just Felt like witness protection. Yeah, just sort of. Now I, again, I know that in real life because we saw the documentary first and not the other way around, that, you know, there was concern there and there was certainly concern about young Alex's safety because there was a photo of him in the press. And you know, they think, well, maybe now the killer's gonna. Now I gotta, you know, not that the killer hadn't already seen him, but, you know, like, oh, now he's gonna come back for him. But the idea that, you know, if 10 years later someone does a story on them, that they're in grave danger to the point where they just gotta get pick up and leave everything behind, it just, that doesn't ring true to me. You know, like as a real life thing. I think that, you know, if you kept a bag by the door full of money and it's always there and you got some punk ass teenager for a son who's like, you know, wanting to go smoke dope and doing all those things that kids never touches it, never goes in, pulls a couple euro out and then, you know, like that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You mean pounds?

[Kevin Flynn]

No, these were euros. Remember, they were living in France and then Spain.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Wasn't this pre Brexit though, that all this happened?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, I don't know, Toby, you tell me. You must know.

[Toby Ball]

They never used pounds in Spain or France.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, I thought you were talking about a go bag in England. But they didn't have that.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, Remember he had it in, well, in Spain or even like Spain.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, that was confusing. They were like in Spain and they were in France and they were back in Spain. You know, whatever.

[Laura Bricker]

You know what you could do with all that money in that go bag?

[Kevin Flynn]

What could you do?

[Toby Ball]

Buy some weed.

[Rachel Dimita]

Join our.

[Laura Bricker]

You could buy some weed or you could join our Patreon.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, both things are soothing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, they are.

[Kevin Flynn]

And surprisingly inexpensive.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you join us at Patreon.com partners in crime media, you'll get all sorts of exclusive content, including those at the leading off level. You'll get the crime writers on. After show, this exclusive podcast. Rebecca will be discussing her new friend, Jenna Bush Hager.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

From the Today show. If you guys are familiar with her, her book club, Jenna. What is it called?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Reading with Jenna.

[Kevin Flynn]

Reading with Jenna.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

She's a publisher as well.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's not as big as Oprah's, but it is very popular. And this was for. Not the, not the Exeter Lit Festival, because since they were not nice to Laura, we're all like, well, fuck them. But this is for the Seacoast Literary Festival. And this was a big onstage thing where you got to interview Jenna and then also the author of Shannon Garvey. Yes. The next book, which was that June's Child or what is it called?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

June Baby.

[Kevin Flynn]

June Baby.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're really with it today.

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't know. How many notes do you really want

[Rebecca Lavoy]

me to take from this?

[Kevin Flynn]

So Rebecca's gonna tell us all about her backstage encounters with Jenna. Other exclusive content includes Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast. Toby and his guests recently discussed the other side of Prospect true crime book. We have Married with Podcast, our advice podcast, in which Rebecca and I give advice to someone who does not want to hear her mother in law say, I told you so.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Ah.

[Kevin Flynn]

That there's also something's off with his. Which is Rebecca and Mel's true crime podcast. And looks like Colin Albert, the infamous Colin Albert, who may or may not surprise.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

He was in the house. Probably.

[Kevin Flynn]

He's probably in the house. Hey, why didn't he surprise. Why didn't he go to his deposition? Because he suddenly joined the army suddenly. And there's a lot of his lawyers the day before. Yeah, that's one way to get out of it. Imagine Laura Bricker trying to serve a subpoena. Yeah, he's not somebody like that.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

No.

[Kevin Flynn]

He's in boot camp. Larry's like, I'm on the first plane. Fort Bragg.

[Laura Bricker]

Here I am.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you. If you become a Bricker scaler, you get to another exclusive podcast. It's Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker. And I gotta say, this last episode, it's the first one that ends with a cliffhanger. My. My jaw dropped. This all has to do with the goings on at the condo board where Lara lives. And Lara, you even go to the fucking courthouse to find out what's going on.

[Laura Bricker]

I do. Yeah. Like, I went to a condo board meeting. I found out about a lawsuit. There was very loose details. So I went to the courthouse and I pulled the lawsuit.

[Sugar Bee Apple Announcer]

Wow.

[Laura Bricker]

And I'm in. And yeah, there was a cliffhanger. Because there is a lot happening out here at my little condo association.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So it's like Lara lives in Widow's Bay.

[Laura Bricker]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

There's a whole, like.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah, it could be.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Except for that basement cliffhanger.

[Laura Bricker]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you join us at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime Writers on early and ad free. And if you're a deep diver, you get all that and you get to be an exclusive sponsor of Toby Ball's. Deep Dive Book Club podcast. You can join Toby and his guests on Monday night as they record the next Deep Dive. The book is called Murderland. Toby, who's joining you for that discussion?

[Toby Ball]

I am being joined by Samantha Axtell Przyzbilowitz, Maggie Freeling, and Sarah Kaelin.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

Super.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Is that does us end our business section?

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm gonna go ahead and fade that music right out.

[Rachel Dimita]

What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel d', Amita, here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA?

[Sugar Bee Apple Announcer]

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[Rachel Dimita]

Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Ooey and ah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Kevin, who's the sponsor of this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, we're sponsored by Quint.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Shut up.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Summer is the perfect time to rethink the clothes that you've been reaching for every day. Take all those clothes that you bought from Quince in the winter, all those nice sweaters. You put them to one side of the closet or in a different drawer, and you bring out all of last year's linens. Get the new ones to add to it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca, what have you recently purchased?

[Patreon Announcer]

Quint?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Well, you know, I love a linen shirt.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And I have a couple of Quint's linen shirts. The European linen I love. The dark blue with the white stripes is my favorite one. I have a white one. I've got a pink one. I've got a solid blue. They are the most versatile, cute shirts. I wear it over a bathing suit. I wear it out to dinner. We were on vacation, remember? I wore a linen shirt every day.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. Yes. And in fact, for that vacation, you purchased me two pairs of swimming trunks.

[Morgan Stewart]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bathing suit. Whatever. Whatever you call it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

And I'll say that, ladies, that if you purchase one for your man, be sure to get the short one. Get the short one. Tell them you're not an 80s surfer. You don't need down to your knees. Look great, look elevated, and save money. And by the way, Quince is not just about clothing. It's your destination for elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding and beyond.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

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[Rebecca Lavoy]

so Toby, what do you think the themes are in this series? Because again, we saw the documentary which is a straightforward telling of the story. So when you do something scripted, you gotta do a little more. So what were they trying to get us to take away from this? You think so?

[Toby Ball]

I think in the more intimate family portion of the show it was really about sort of moving forward versus seeking closure. So that seemed to be like the sort of major point of contention between Andre and Alex where Andre, you know, was so fixated on finding who did the murder, even at this late date. And then later I guess on, on on finding a way to hold the Metropolitan Police Department responsible for their ineptitude that led led to the perpetrator killing several more times after he already should have been caught. And Alex, on the other hand, seems to just want to move and be able to like live a life that is isn't under the shadow of his mother's brutal murder and then his father's sort of paranoia, whether it's, you know, justified or not, about the press. And you know, I think you get a sense of the oppressiveness that Alex feels. I don't know if it's on purpose and whether it was a good idea or a mistake or whatever. But I think one of the things that I came away kind of wondering was, you know, what. What is really behind Alex's acting out? Right. Or his kind of disaffection? Is it this extremely traumatic moment when he's 2 years old, or is it the following years in which he's living in this state, this sort of embattled existence? And I don't feel like the show really stakes out a position on that. And I don't know if maybe, you know, I think in reality it's probably a combination of the two. Right. Anyway, that was kind of what I found most interesting about what I sort of plotline I didn't find particularly interesting was this two sort of instincts and how they kind of play out through father and son.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah. One of them has an Irish feelings box and one of them does not, apparently. So, Kevin, what do you think about the performances in the series?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I thought they were good. My favorite happens to be Josiah Williams. He played young Alex. Baby Alex.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

I'm going to see when Mommy died. I'm going to lay a rose and say goodbye properly. It won't be long.

[Laura Bricker]

I want to come with you, Alex. I don't think I want to.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

You want to say goodbye, too?

[Rachel Dimita]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

I thought baby Alex did a good job. Not baby Yoda like, but definitely baby Alex was good because would you be

[Rebecca Lavoy]

surprised to learn he was AI.

[Kevin Flynn]

He was a puppet.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, he's not.

[Kevin Flynn]

He motored so well. I mean, you know, I think that that's kind of a tough job at that age. I mean, they had a preschooler, like, doing this.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Probably twins.

[Kevin Flynn]

Probably preschoolers. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm just guessing.

[Kevin Flynn]

I could be probably, you know, I don't know. Do you think they have those same kind of laws, labor laws in Europe?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

They probably just follow the labor laws.

[Kevin Flynn]

They probably have even stricter.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

You can't use. You can't use twins. You got to use triplets.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

In order for them.

[Laura Bricker]

Quads.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Quads only.

[Kevin Flynn]

Exactly. But ye. Overall, I thought, you know, I thought the performances were good. I was scared at the Spanish dinner party when he was served fish. I knew that was going to be a problem immediately. I know it was because, you know. And they took a knife. You're right, Toby. I don't know. If someone served me fish at a Spanish dinner party, I might lose my shit, too. So I just. I hope you're a better man than I.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's pretty common. I think to eat fish in Spain,

[Kevin Flynn]

but not if you're a vegetarian.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's true.

[Greta Johnson]

That's true.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You know, but some vegetarians eat fish.

[Kevin Flynn]

I know. That's the whole conflict.

[Toby Ball]

Those are called pescatarians.

[Laura Bricker]

Pescatarians.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, I know. That's. I was. I yelled that at the tv.

[Rachel Dimita]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I used to be a vegetarian for, like, three years. People used to ask me all the time if I ate fish. And I was like, what did I just tell you?

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't know. I know somebody who's a Presbyterian.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You do?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

An Episcopalian.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Lara, that performance of that young, young actor includes scenes where he's being interviewed by these people in a way that a child should never be asking for information that a child can't possibly have, especially since he's a foot and a half tall and he can't possibly know what somebody's face looks like. What did you think about those scenes?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I think it was hard. You know, speaking of how the father, Andre, was reacting. You know, he's kind of showing how he's irritated with him as he's, in his mind misbehaving as they're in there questioning him. Um, you're seeing the scene where Alex is taken to, you know, help identify the body, and you're like, this. This is not. This is not a good thing.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Alex, do you want to see Mommy now?

[Laura Bricker]

You know, I was thinking about in the first. In the documentary, I was focused a lot on child suggestibility. When I'm looking at those scenes of early Alex, and I'm focused on, you know, how that. And how that. In this one, I found myself more thinking about kind of piggybacking what Tobe was saying, like, the lasting impact of trauma on his life. And was it, like you said, that trauma from that early experience that, you know, he witnessed, was it the combination of that and his father really trying to keep him in this safety box, essentially, and micromanaging him to the point that he then has a. A nanny or an au pair. When he's way too old to have a nanny or au pair, it feels like staying with him. You know, I think seeing those early scenes again, it's like this case is one of those cases that if you're like, here's what you should not be doing with a young witness who's a victim. Witness to a crime of this nature. And, you know, I think that really comes through when you watch what we watched the documentary last week, and then when you see the dramatized version here at the time. I think these people thought this was what they were supposed to be doing, but really that's not gonna work. So it's like, this is not a position this child should have been put in, But I don't think they knew what else to do.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I think that Jordan Bulger, who played Andre, did a decent job acting in this. There are a lot of very quiet scenes where he's just sort of like, resign to how shitty his son is being to him because he can't, of course, say, you're being shitty to me. Because he also knows his son has this trauma and all this stuff. And he just has that beleaguered look of like an abused parent whose kid is just like causing all kinds of trouble again and again and again. And I thought he did a good job with that.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we always talk about, I mean, very often with things of nonfiction. Sometimes when we're critiquing it, the conversation turns to, well, if this were the dramatized version, this would happen. Or if this was the fictionalized version, we would have this or that. And so now we have, you know, very fresh side by side comparison. And we look at, if you start from the non fiction version, at least what is presented in the documentary. You look at that and you say, okay, well, if I'm doing the scripted version, what parts are there that would play well and that I want to explore with characters with the freedom of dramatic license. And what things, you know, you know, what things do we, you know, set aside now? I don't know. We didn't ask 30 year old Alex if back in the day he actually was on a skateboard. Right. I mean, he might not have been a skateboard. So we're like, okay, we need to come up with something that, like, risky. Yes. Represents his brutal use, his death wish. His death wish and, you know, staying out late arguing with dad. I'm going, I'm going to Anna's house. Screw you and your white rice that you've been making all day or whatever it is. But I tell you, I thought there was one. I would have liked to have seen this. I would have pushed for this if I were doing the screenplay. Because when you saw it, the most dramatic moment, I thought the most human moment from the documentary was the footage that we saw when the investigators finally, like sort of last effort, took young Alex back to the park. Right. And then there's something happens and then he starts to cry. And after all this stuff, this is where, like, Andre loses it.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

That was enough for Me, I had enough. This was. This was taking too heavy a toll on him, and it was taking too heavy a toll on me as well. Fucking go.

[Kevin Flynn]

And he's yelling like it's fucking stupid. And you catch him in real life, basically, like, okay, enough. Enough is enough. I've had it for the documentary, like, for whatever he does afterwards. It's like, I get it. He's going to do this instead, go to France. Okay, that makes sense now. That makes. That made more sense to me than, well, the press is coming after me or whatever. I would have liked to have seen that scene dramatized. I thought that would have explained much more of a character's motivation and we would have bought. We would have. I think we would have had a little more insight into perhaps why later on, Andre is so protective. Right. I thought that's like. When you're looking at these things, you're always trying to find, okay, what is the piece, the truth to mind. And I thought that would have been great in this series if they had done that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What do you think, Toby? What would you have scripted differently, aside from making it less boring?

[Kevin Flynn]

Everything?

[Morgan Stewart]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Is there something that you saw in the documentary that wasn't here or something that you saw here that you were like, why is that there?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, well, I hadn't really thought about it, but I think Kevin's like 100% right about. About that. I mean, I. Again, it kind of seems. I don't know. And again, I think it's that sort of outlinish nature of the whole thing. It's like, yeah, the press is a pain in the ass or whatever, but is it really worth destroying your life basically, in order to avoid it? That that scene is almost too good in. In it happened in reality. But it. There is like this crescendo of stuff, of this pressure of, like, taking this little kid and putting him through all this stuff. And then at the one moment where it's like just. It reaches the apex, like, you're not gonna. Unless you had it videoed. You're making them watch the actual murder. Like, that is the most visceral thing you can do. And that's the moment at which the kid breaks, the father breaks, and they have to leave. Like, that makes emotional sense. Right. And I mean, I'm just repeating what Kevin said, so for whatever that's worth, but. But that would make the rest of it seem more comprehensible. When I first heard that this is what it was going to be, I thought it was really going to be about him. Struggling with the ideas of, do I try and save my kid as best as I can, or do I try and help the police stop this murderer? And what are the moral responsibilities and stuff on that? And that seemed to be largely absent from this. I mean, I think it's sort of touched on a tiny bit, but doesn't seem to be a big issue. But that, to me was like sort of the big thing in the documentary. I mean, it's what starts the whole thing, is he sort of acquiesces to pressure from the police. So I would have really narrowed the scope of this a lot. Like, all this stuff I'd forgotten about the au pair. Right. But that's just another one where she's in there for two scenes. So that essentially to set it up so she can say, I know it's not my place, but this, this and the other thing. And then Andre says, yeah, it's not your place. Like, that's the only reason why she burned. That's the only reason why she's there. She's there, right? Is for that.

[Kevin Flynn]

And someone's got to fold the laundry, Toby.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Someone's got to change that big boy's pants for him.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

So I.

[Kevin Flynn]

That kid's not going to shake himself.

[Toby Ball]

If you've got three. If you've got. If you're doing this in three episodes, three hours, you're trying to tell these two stories in a way that makes some kind of emotional and narrative sense. I think you just really have to narrow the scope quite a bit and get people invested in certain aspects of things rather than trying to hit all these points in ways that. I mean, maybe I'm totally off on this, but every scene, once they get to Europe, I just felt like they're trying to make a point with this scene, they're trying to make a point with this scene, they're trying to make a point with this scene.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

They're.

[Toby Ball]

Nothing's evolving. Naturally, we have to hit all these points so we can get to the end and then have there be some kind of reconciliation or some kind of emotional working out of things. And the fact that, at least to me it seems so transparent what they were doing, like none of it hit. And conversely, if you're going to do the investigation, make it mean something. Like the whole thing with the first guy, like that goes by super, super quick. Like, you basically see the cop with the beard and the weird way of talking shows up and he becomes convinced that it's this guy. But you don't get really much of a sense of him other than he's weird. And then they have the sort of honey trap letter thing and that goes by pretty quick. I mean, it was just like again, it's like, all right, we have to check off these four things. All right, we got those done. Now we can move on to the next thing. For me, it's not like, oh, if they could add this, if they could add that. It's like, no, you gotta like, you guys gotta rethink the scope of this. This is either gotta be longer and you gotta spend some time making this have some kind of impact or you need to really condense the scope and make it so the pieces that you do show have like some emotional resonance or some narrative resonance. I just found it really frustrating, especially, especially the, the family one because I just felt as though they're, they're just trying to hit certain marks and then it's gonna end and it just, that's not like a kind of show I want to see.

[Morgan Stewart]

Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called the Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life and just a warning, I'm going to be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.

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[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the Witness on Netflix. It's a three part dramatized version of the documentary the murder of Rachel Nickell. Laura Bricker. Thumbs up or thumbs down for the witness?

[Laura Bricker]

I'm gonna go mild thumbs up on this one. I think. You know, the last one that we reviewed last week, the actual documentary about this case is pretty straightforward true crime. This really provided sort of the emotional focus of the aftermath for Andre and Alex, the father and son in this case, and their other family members as they were navigating the process of coming to terms with this horrible crime and this murder and what their lives were like. And I think you could see it as being a little bit like, okay, why are we hearing about this? But the way that I thought about it was I know they consulted on this, so I think this from where they were at is hopefully a pretty good representation of what they went through. So if you are interested in this case, you don't know all about this case because you don't live in England and you want to learn more about how it affected the family members in this dramatized way. I think it was an interesting portrayal. I did have some issues with the police investigation portion of this that were a little bit hard to follow and I don't know if they were necessary. But overall, I think this was done in a way that was not sensational. That put the family kind of front and center and was an interesting compliment to the documentary about the same case, Toby Ball.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Thumbs up or thumbs down for the Witness?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, so I'm a thumbs down. You know, it felt at sometimes to me like maybe this had started off being like a six part series and they're like, no, no, no, it's gotta be three, three parts. And then they tried to like have all the same plot elements that they had in the six part series, but. But do it in half the time because it just felt. It's hard to say it again because if you listen to the very, very end of our main of our main review, I'd make all these same points, so I'm having to make them again. But it just, it just felt like it goes. It goes very fast and very superficially through a bunch of things that it wanted to get out, get out there and wanted to say. And it felt like it just drained any suspense, any sense of stakes, any kind of emotional connection, any of that stuff all seemed to be really beside the point of knocking out these certain plot points. Because of that, I just, I. I mean, I just really. I was found this very boring. So anyway, yeah, I'm a thumbs down. I didn't think this was well done. I mean, the acting is fine. You know, it's largely the script, but I just found the script to be a tough watch.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm a mild thumbs up on this. I think basically on the strength of the underlying story here, it's a fascinating setup where you have a witness to a crime who's 2 years old. Can you identify the perpetrator? And this series kind of veers away from the gore and goes instead to the. The impact in the aftermath of the crime. So I found that interesting. Again, we have, we. You know, it came out the same time as this documentary about the case. And I think that I would much rather have seen the dramatized version first because I'm always finishing that, going, I wonder what part of that was true. I wonder if that actually happened. And I think that I would have enjoyed a little more finding those things out as opposed to coming into it thinking, oh, I wish that they had touched on that. Oh, I would have done something differently with that. But overall, you know, it's not bad. Like, this isn't going to win any awards. But I think if you, if you enjoyed the documentary, then this is a pretty good companion to it or, you know, even as a standalone watch. So for me, I'm a mild thumbs

[Rebecca Lavoy]

up, I'm a thumbs sideways. I thought it was fine. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be after Sarah Carradine told me it was terrible. Performances were okay. The pacing was a little weird in terms of like all the jump cuts and time and all that stuff. But, you know, it was understated, quiet, sensitively told. And I just kept thinking that, you know, what this should have been made like. It should have been made just like that Aaron Lee Carr film undercurrent, the Disappearance of Kim Voll, which I know was a documentary, but in that story, she, I think, did a really good job kind of balancing the criminal investigation with sort of like the very personal, intimate family stuff, like, and it was just a good balance. And I know that that was, again, unscripted, but I was watching this and I was like, there was an opportunity here to tell a story like that where there's like a very suspenseful and intense police investigation. Or, like, unbelievable would be another good example of something where there's like an intense, suspenseful investigation alongside, you know, some painful, quiet stuff. And this, for this, the balance wasn't quite there, I think at the expense of the police investigation. We had a little too much of the personal. But as Toby said, it was kind of disjointed with a lot of characters and a lot of places that were very confusing. So. But it's not terrible. So this is a thumb sideways for me, for the witness. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little something I like to call the crime of the week. I love this. The operators of a life size Noah's ark are suing their insurance company over damages from excessive rain. The owners of Noah's Ark Encounters in Williamstown, Kentucky have filed suit saying heavy rains in 2017 and 18 caused a landslide which blocked its access road. The insurance carrier refused to pay for cleanup. The Kentucky ark wasn't damaged. The tourist attraction and museum was built using the dimensions described in the book of Genesis. It's 510ft long, or 300 cubits. And although there is some scholarly debate on the historical length of a Cubit, there is 100% agreement that Noah was able to gather two of literally every kind of animal in the world and float aimlessly for 40 days and 40 nights without any of the animals eating each other. In the Bible, Noah knew the waters were receding because a dove returned with an olive branch. But the operators of the Kentucky ark are not extending an olive branch of their insurance company. They're seeking $1 million in compensatory and punitive damages. So, panel, the business people are going to go Old Testament on these litigants. What is the next biblically inspired lawsuit?

[Laura Bricker]

Lara Bricker, you know, Poland Springs water is not turning that water into wine.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, and they should be, though. Yeah, we should sue them. What about you, Toby? What do you think is the next biblically inspired lawsuit?

[Toby Ball]

I don't know. Some lady walked into my garden and grabbed an apple and took a bite.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, no.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Something went horribly wrong at Jonas's whale watch.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh. Wasn't there some sort of, like, splitting a baby in half situation? And One of the things it seems like that would be worthy of a

[Kevin Flynn]

lawsuit, you know, if you actually split the baby in half.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes. Yeah. All right, Laura Bricker, if folks want to follow you online and say hi, how can you be reached on social media?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me Arabricer on Instagram and bluesky.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Toby? How can you be found Besides in Spain?

[Toby Ball]

Oball603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm at Kevin Pflinn.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You can find me everywhere at Reb Lavoy, even on the hell site that is X. Yep, I'm still there. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Blue Sky, TikTok and Threads. But I mostly encourage you to join our incredible community and our official crime writers on Facebook discussion group. Our handle on all those platforms is rimewriterson. Get everything we make at Patreon, including ad free and early episodes at patreon.com partnersincrimemedia you'll also get the after show Married with podcast. Something's off Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker and Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcasts. Our theme song was composed and performed by Ty Gibbons. The executive producer and editor of this episode is Kevin Flynn. This show was recorded in the Kaitlin Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also had PTSD outbursts when served fish at a Spanish dinner party. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks for all. Thanks for listening. We will catch you later.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca will be discussing her new friend, her new bff, Laura Hager Bush.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, my God. I forgot about that from the Today show.

[Kevin Flynn]

Laura.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Laura Bush Hager.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Okay, we take it. Laura Bush Hager.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, it's Jenna.

[Kevin Flynn]

My butt. Fuck me so hard in the butt. Okay.

[Actor (Andre or Alex)]

Oh.

[Rachel Dimita]

What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel Dimita, here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Ooey and ah,