The Last 12 Weeks

Summary

Crime Writers On... – "The Last 12 Weeks" (July 6, 2026)
Podcast Review & Discussion

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Episode Overview

This episode of Crime Writers On... focuses on the Serial Productions/New York Times/Marshall Project podcast "The Last 12 Weeks", which documents the frantic efforts of a legal team trying to halt the execution of David Wood, convicted of murdering six women and girls decades ago. The panel examines the show's unique "ride along" approach, ethical questions surrounding reporting, death penalty advocacy, and how compelling storytelling can raise broader questions about the criminal justice system.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Podcast’s Unique Structure: ‘Ride Along’ with the Legal Team

• Unusual Conceit: Instead of a traditional journalistic investigation, the podcast embeds with the defense legal team in real time, as they work to stay Wood’s execution.
  • Toby: "[It] turned it from what probably would have been a... run of the mill advocacy podcast to something... giving you some insight on a process that's extremely, extremely fraught." (08:06)
  • Laura: Access is unprecedented—“We haven't seen kind of that capital murder case unfold through this particular lens.” (09:15)
• The show balances narrative beats with legal procedural details, showing the team’s exhaustion and emotional stakes.

The Defense Attorneys: Interesting, but Underexplored

• Multiple hosts found the defense team’s personalities compelling but wished the show delved deeper.
  • Rebecca: "If we're not going to go in depth about all the dry stuff, let's go in a little deeper with the people... I'm kind of hungry for [that]." (14:08)
  • The attorneys include the “eternal optimist” (Greg), “the pessimist” (Jeremy), and the action-oriented investigator (Naomi), whose personalities add tension and realism.

David Wood: Complicated, Unsympathetic, and Central to Moral Questions

• The podcast interviews David Wood—a rare coup—but he’s unsympathetic. He admits prior rapes but maintains his innocence on the murders.
  • Toby: "It's not like a movie... This is not a guy you want babysitting or... at your barbecue." (15:30)
  • Laura: "He's not...a sympathetic character... But should we execute this person when there seems to be doubt about the conviction?" (17:47)
  • The panel agrees that emotional distance from the defendant calls attention to the process over personality, highlighting the moral foundation of due process, even for the least sympathetic.
  • Rebecca: "The worst of us have the same rights as the best of us." (19:25)

Questions of Guilt, Innocence, and Prosecutorial Conduct

• The podcast foregrounds potential innocence—unexplored DNA, use of jailhouse snitches, and evidence of police misconduct.
  • Kevin: "The only DNA they found excluded him, and there's all this other evidence that they refused to test... gives us... reason for going into it." (21:00)
  • Like Serial’s Adnan Syed, Wood urges listeners to “focus on the facts of the case, and get me out of here.” (23:15, Toby)

Ethical Questions & Journalistic Puritanism

• The hosts debate the ethics of journalistic “non-involvement,” especially a scene where the podcaster refuses to help the legal team find a witness’s house out of “purity.”
  • Laura: "That felt kind of ridiculous... our role is not to help. Our role is... to tell this story." (37:55)
  • Rebecca: Criticizes including this “virtue signaling” in the final edit (38:39)

The Role of the State, Prosecution, and Death Penalty

• The adversarial nature of the justice system is highlighted, especially Texas’s attitude toward post-conviction relief.
  • Toby: "They definitely seem to see these people as sort of professional nuisances... That's their job." (41:19)
  • Observed lack of solemnity and respect in proceedings involving execution decisions.
  • "There are over 170 people on death row in Texas. That's insane... statistically, some of them are going to be innocent." (43:20)

Production and Narration Critiques

• Confusion over two similar-sounding narrators; lack of “signposting” about who is speaking.
  • Kevin: "Wasn't till episode five that I realized there were two separate narrators." (33:47)
  • Lack of “hand-off” made sections confusing, though it didn’t change the core information. (34:21)
• Some felt the show could have been a bit longer or more in-depth, especially regarding the legal team’s backgrounds.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Process Over Sympathy:
  • Toby (15:55): "Even if he did this... should he be executed?"
• On Death Penalty:
  • Toby (41:19): “When you are sort of trivializing these arguments, you're basically trivializing the decision to kill this person.”
• On Journalistic Ethics:
  • Rebecca (38:39): "Didn't the fact [they] included that feel performative to you? Virtue signaling."
• On the Stakes:
  • Kevin (12:01): "The stakes could not be higher. It's not even like a murder trial...Now it's the punishment, and it's the ultimate punishment."
• On Podcast Characterization:
  • Rebecca (14:08): "If we're not going to go in depth about all the dry stuff, let's go in a little deeper with the people..."
• On Podcast Style:
  • Laura (09:15): "[At first] I thought this is going to be a little like 'The Staircase'...Access to a death penalty team, legal team, was really interesting."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Podcast Theme & Structure: 07:43–12:48
• Defense Attorney Personalities & Art: 12:13–14:25
• David Wood’s Character and Interview: 15:30–19:25
• Ethics & Reporting: 33:05–40:37
• Prosecutorial Attitudes & State Role: 41:19–44:06
• Thorough Thumbs Up/Down Reviews: 45:47–51:00
• Crime of the Week (Batman vigilante): 52:53–54:03

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Final Panel Verdict

Each host gave an enthusiastic thumbs up:

• Praised the novel approach and transparency of the legal process.
• Laura: Loved seeing defense work so up close (“I'm all for it... you really get a sense of the ticking of time.” 45:59)
• Toby: Appreciated the depth, called it the best Serial Productions work in a while.
• Kevin: Enjoyed the real-time stakes and focus on process over “melodrama.”
• Rebecca: Thought it was “the best work the Serial Productions has put out in a really long time,” but slightly thin—wanted even more depth on the defense team.

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Tone & Style

The episode is lively, candid, and engaging—characterized by friendly ribbing, critical honesty (especially about Serial Productions’ house style), and thoughtful, sometimes humorous, debate on serious moral issues.

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For Listeners

If you’re interested in the criminal justice system, appreciate a true "race against time," or simply want to understand how death penalty cases are fought (and sometimes lost) from the inside, both the reviewed podcast and this episode provide a rare, nuanced, and entertaining window into that world.

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(Ad sections, business/promotion, and off-topic digressions omitted as requested.)

Transcript

[Laura Bricker]

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

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[Laura Bricker]

flavors with mango, pineapple, popping pearls bursting in every sip. Ice cold, instantly refreshing and impossible to put down. Made for summer only at Starbucks.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Laura Bricker]

Fell.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Kevin Flynn]

To get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm Rebecca LaVoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original true Crime review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts. And on this episode, with their client weeks away from execution, a group of lawyers seeks new evidence to win him a stay and prove his innocence. We'll talk about the podcast from Serial Productions, the New York Times, and the Marshall project the last 12 weeks. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast, my husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hello, Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Final Curtain, it's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And finally, our captain of all things cynical, author of the City trilogy, host of Strange Arrivals, and our Patreon deep dive book club, podc, it's Toby Ball. Hi, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So, Kevin, this is Monday's show.

[Kevin Flynn]

It is.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What's coming up on future editions of Crime Writers on?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, on Thursday, we're gonna have our first classic rewind of the summer. We're going back to our review of the mysterious Mr. Epstein.

[Laura Bricker]

Ah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Am I saying that right? Epstein. Epstein. I don't know.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't know.

[Kevin Flynn]

I've only seen it on paper.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Is that somebody whose name we're supposed to know?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. And then on Monday, we'll be back with a brand new fresh episode of Crime Writers on. And we'll be discussing the surprise hit TV show of the season, Widow's Bay.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Great. I just want to tell listeners who might be new to the show, and I know there are Some of you, because I look at the analytics every week. Maybe some of you came over from my YouTube show. That would be cool. Each summer, starting about now and ending around Labor Day, ish, we actually have one new show a week and one classic rewind, which is a fun or interesting review from the past. Very often it's something we super hated. So those are really fun. And then we come to two shows a week in September. Right, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

That's exactly how it works.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And why do we do this, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Because it's summer.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

But we still, we don't want to go away completely like a bunch of other shows do. So we're back every Monday.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right. That's right. And we just like to take a little break from our schedule because then we're invigorated for the rest of the year.

[Kevin Flynn]

No one says you have to listen to the Thursday show. It's great if you download it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Correct.

[Kevin Flynn]

And then.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Or just stream it when you're not listening.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, just turn it on when you shower and just come back to the phone, whatever. Give us the listen. But you do you, you do you

[Rebecca LaVoy]

go ahead, set up a content and just download us on 18 phones. It's fine. Just kidding, just kidding. That's bad. That's really, really bad.

[Kevin Flynn]

Don't know anybody who's done that.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

No. So, Lara, you have a tradition that you do where you have a fundraiser that's very personal to you. And every year we like to ask our listeners if they'd like to help out. So can you tell us about that?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I am doing the run to home base again. I might be walking and running, but it's called the Run to Home Base. And this is for the Home Base Foundation. This is a great program for veterans and their families that's offered free to them at no charge. It's like a two week, all encompassing, intensive therapeutic environment where they go to in this situation. It's through the Boston Red Sox foundation and they go to Boston and it's, you know, for veterans for what they say, the unseen effects of serving. So Lance, who we, we know from my Leave it to Brickers, my partner Lance has gone through this program. He's had friends who've gone through this program. And so I am raising money to help, you know, support the people that are going go there so that they can continue to offer this free of charge. So we're going to be going to Boston and the run to home bases, we are literally going to be running across home plate on Fenway park at the end of this. This is the 5k through Boston, so it's a. It's a big adventure.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Where can people find the link to donate to this?

[Laura Bricker]

They can find the link to donate to this in our official Crime Writers on podcast discussion group on Facebook or in our newsletter.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Amazing. When I am pledging to donate, as I do every year, I can't wait. Thanks for telling us about it, Lara.

[Laura Bricker]

Thank you, guys.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, Kevin, should we talk about the podcast we're here to talk about?

[Kevin Flynn]

Let's do it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, leading off, there's a lot

[Laura Bricker]

wrong with this case.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I think the fact that DNA has not been tested and that it's pretty clear that they were using jailhouse witnesses to corroborate a story

[Laura Bricker]

is a little.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It makes me a little uneasy. Thirty years after being convicted of murdering six women and girls, David Wood is now only weeks away from dying by lethal injection. Pointing to the fact the only DNA ever recovered points to a different suspect and new statements accusing police of setting him up, Lawyer Greg Warczuk and his team are rushing to win a stay.

[Maurice Shama]

So I told Greg, I'm not going to do the big feature story on David Wood you're imagining, but what if I follow you around, be there with a microphone as you strategize with your team?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

The lawyers look for alternate suspects, elusive witnesses, and holes in the state's evidence, all as the clock ticks down to Wood's execution. Warchuck and the other attorneys pull at every lever to stop the process to save the life of a man they believe was wrongfully convicted, all while preparing themselves for the possibility he'll die anyway. Like, I don't want to have, like, some sort of on my part, like, teary goodbye of like, I might never see you again.

[Laura Bricker]

And, you know, I want to be

[Rebecca LaVoy]

fair in the odds, right? Which is like, I could see you

[Laura Bricker]

and I might not.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

From Serial Productions, the Marshall Project, and the New York Times comes the podcast the last 12 weeks. Host Maurice Shama and producer Alvin Milath give the audience an unprecedented look inside a legal team's efforts to find evidence and craft legal arguments that will pause the execution of David Wood, the so called Desert Killer. Both with the attorneys and on their own, the journalists interview witnesses, investigators, and the accused serial killer himself in a literal story of life or death. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from the last 12 weeks. So if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Toby, this is an unusual conceit and I'd like to ask you all about this. I think a podcast typically would be perhaps trying to, as the lawyers here wanted them to do, sort of look into the case and come up with some journalistic conclusions about the veracity of the trials, et cetera. But no, what this podcast is instead is basically spending time with the legal team trying to have this guy's execution stayed. And through that process, what do you think of the construction and conceit of that for a show, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

I like it, quite honestly, because I think otherwise you would have had just sort of like a pretty basic true crime show. And I, you know, as I've said many times, I'm like, completely opposed to the death penalty, think it's barbaric and ridiculous that we do it. As much as podcast or whatever can shine light on the process of the death penalty, the better. And I think this, particularly where you have a group of lawyers who are literally racing against time to come up with an argument that will be accepted by the court to at least give a stay of execution for this guy, that to me is a much more compelling framework. I mean, I wouldn't want all podcasts to start doing that, but I think for this, and especially with this team that was working on it, I mean, I think it turned it from what probably would have been a kind of run of the mill advocacy podcast to something that, you know, I think is giving you some insight on a process that's extremely, extremely fraught. And I think most people don't know a whole lot about. I do have some questions which you can get to later, about whether this is sort of showing the whole sort of effort that they were doing at this time or whether it was just like the most interesting and exciting part of it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, I have an answer to that question, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

But, but generally, but generally, I think the more you can, the more this stuff is exposed to light, the better.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What do you think, Lar, about the chance for us to ride along with this legal team?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I mean, at first I'm thinking, okay, this is going to be a little like the Staircase and Michael Peterson, and we're going to be following along. And I think access to a death penalty team, legal team was really interesting because it's showing, you know, we haven't seen kind of that capital murder case unfold through this particular lens. But I, I did find it interesting how they, I, I felt like the lawyers were a little bit more reticent at first to have this team trailing along like they're, you know, is it Naomi? That's the female attorney?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

And she was kind of like, don't record this or don't record that. And, and so it wasn't complete access, but I think it shows that, you know, this isn't just like post conviction work in the sense isn't about being in the courtroom. It's not about that. It's about this, the labor of the ongoing investigation and trying to track down witnesses decades after this happened. Looking for like old evidence, old police reports, and then filing these like last minute emergency motions that you are, you know, being set up to feel like there's, there's little chance that any of this is going to be granted. You know, I think that this is showing, you know, a lot of times we think of kind of like a technical loophole in a case and like was this person guilty or was the process fair? And I think this is showing that in this particular case it's like uncovering evidence that wasn't fully fleshed out in the first place. But having access to these attorneys, you know, you really get the sense of how all consuming this particular type of legal work and defense work is the amount of the guy that's like, I'm, this is my last case because I'm going to retire because, you know, of how long these cases hold on.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I agree. It's a great look inside a legal case on the, you know, we never get to see that. And like the stakes could not be higher. It's not even like a murder trial, like, like the staircase. I mean we've already had that part here. Now it's the punishment and it's the ultimate punishment. So as far as like what are the stakes? Well, they can't be any higher, right? They couldn't be any lower with the idiot from Serial Productions here. They can't be any higher. And I think what we also get to see, even though there's a lot of sort of you know, procedural stuff happening here and maybe some of it might seem dry, I think they do a good job of sort of keeping this narrative going about finding people and filings and whatnot. But I think we get a good sense of the personalities here, especially the main three lawyers where you've got Greg, you've got Naomi and you've got, I mean his name escapes me, but he's the foul mouthed one. So that's kind of like who I'm thinking that I am in this group.

[Maurice Shama]

Jeremy, if you can't tell already is pretty much a photo negative of Greg. They both grew up in Michigan, but that's where the similarities stop. Jeremy is sarcastic, where Greg is earnest, a millennial in flannel and jeans, where Greg opts for the jacket and tie.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I think we get a good sense of that. You have the eternal optimist, you have the eternal pessimist, and you've got the person who's going out and doing it. And I will say this kind of leans to one other sort of extra textual thing. The COVID art for this. I really like it because it's simple. But, I mean, you have three figures and they appear to be. They feel like they are fast walking and one is trying to catch up to the other. And that is, I think it is like the absolute epitome of art. Well done. That implies the whole theme of this podcast. I don't think it could be any more on the nose.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I thought you were talking about the episode art with the Garden Gnome, which I super liked. So I just want to be very clear with our audience. I tend to grave podcasts from Sealer productions on a very, very steep curve. And I have. And my criticisms are criticisms that I wouldn't necessarily make of other shows. That being said, I did like this podcast, but my one. One of my few con. My few criticisms of it is I understand how this team works. They want a good narrative. They want all the juicy parts. They want it to be compelling. They want the stakes to feel high. There are certainly many things they didn't include and they say so explicitly in the show. Because you're gonna get that stuff if you sign up for the newsletter, right? You're gonna get stuff about statistics, you're gonna get stuff about process, you're gonna get that stuff. But I feel like for a show that leaned in more to narrative and stakes and beats, that we actually didn't get quite enough of these lawyers. I mean, the one guy who swears in every single scene he's in and says in the first scene he's In, I work 16 hours a day, plus I do triathlons. I'm just like, clearly you hate your wife and kids. If you have them, won't have them for long. That was just a joke. But, like, they are interesting people. And I think that there was something there to mine that I was kind of hungry for because we have scenes with them. But if we're not going to go in depth about all the dry stuff, let's go in a little deeper with the people, because you Kind of get a sense that they have strong emotions and strong feelings, but you don't really know how they got where they are. You get one glimpse of somebody when they're not on the clock, and that's because they make a phone call to him when he's on the treadmill.

[Angie Hicks]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And that's basically the closest we get.

[Kevin Flynn]

Pick up your fucking phone. Yeah.

[Maurice Shama]

He calls Greg, desperate to get him on the phone to figure this out. Greg doesn't pick up. Jeremy wonders aloud if he's on the treadmill.

[Kevin Flynn]

What the fucking Christ.

[Laura Bricker]

Pick up your goddamn phone, Greg.

[Maurice Shama]

What little restraint Jeremy's shown in this podcast with regard to cursing is now completely out the window.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Damn it.

[Kevin Flynn]

Get off the treadmill.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah. And I think about that a lot. I think about, you know, if you're going to lean into that narrative, perhaps lean even a little more in, like, make us care even more about these people in the show. Speaking of caring, Toby, they actually interview David Wood in this podcast, which is an incredible get. I mean, it's really good that they did that. They included it. And I was very surprised when I met him at what he was actually like, because I certainly understand why one wouldn't root for his execution to be stayed after understanding other crimes that he has admitted to and just kind of meeting him and getting his. And I'm not saying I believe this way, but some people would say he's unlikable. So why do we care so much? What did you think about that, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

I thought it was good just in showing the reality of what it. You know, it's not like a movie or something where it's actually like this. This guy who's had a jailhouse conversion or turns out he was a nice guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like, this is. This is not a guy you want babysitting or, like, hanging out your barbecue or whatever.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

No, that's.

[Toby Ball]

That's the reality. But I think the question, plus one to that, Toby.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

The qu. The question is, and even if he did. Even if he did this, which, you know that. That's sort of a whole separate question, but. But should he be. Should he be executed? It feels like they do enough work where. If there had been a trial, maybe not in Texas, but in. In a lot of places, there would be, like, reasonable doubt. Like, there would be enough plausibility in other suspects that it would raise some questions for people and they might not have been convicted. But that's not really. That's not what they're trying to get at this point.

[Kevin Flynn]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

That. That's sort of come and gone. And that was more sort of a fault of his. His previous lawyer, you know, it kind of feels he. He's sort of dismissive or it sort of talks in vague terms about these prior crimes which he's already confessed to. So it's not like you get this feeling like, wow, he's really seen the error of his ways or anything like that, or he's reformed.

[Maurice Shama]

Christie described David's attack as intentional, predatory. David denies the whole rock thrown at the windshield story and says what happened was basically a drunken mistake that got out of hand. I find his way of talking about it off putting, to put it mildly. And it doesn't do wonders for his overall reliability.

[Toby Ball]

You could not want him back on the streets, but also not feel as though he should be killed by the state.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

That's kind of where I came down on it. It's like this is like this guy seems like he's genuinely like a dangerous guy and a potential recidivist. But again, if you're. If you're opposed to death penalty, you do anything you can to keep him alive.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

Because you don't think the state should be doing that kind of thing.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah. Laura, I thought about you in that scene because I know in your work in criminal defense, you very likely sometimes are working for clients who are not people you would invite to your family barbecue. What did you think about David Wood?

[Laura Bricker]

So I thought he was kind of a complicated character to put in this story because there's clearly issues with the conviction. But on the other hand, he admitted to these prior rapes. He's not necessarily what I would consider a sympathetic character that people are going to be rooting for necessarily in the context of, like, this person was, you know, is. And he's going for innocence as well. This person's innocent. And this, this is what's going on here. And that makes it hard going in because you can't really rehabilitate his character from, you know, carrying out the rapes and the prior bad acts that he had. But then like Toby said, you know, we can still say at the same time, should we execute this person when there seems to be doubt about the conviction in the murder. So, you know, it's kind of like that moral question of, like, can somebody be guilty of these horrible crimes that are obviously very upsetting, you know, prior to the murder and at the same time be wrongfully convicted of the murder? And, you know, I think it was an interesting choice to put somebody like David Wood at the center of a case like this, because there's certainly lots of, you know, defendants and, you know, people that are incarcerated out there that have stories that you're going to more willingly see this person as a good person and want to get behind and root. So this really comes down to the legal process, and how does that manifest? Like, how does the legal process apply in this case if you're taking out your emotions?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You know, I always say all the time, you know, the. The worst of us have the same rights as the best of us. And actually, in some ways, we need to be more careful because it is so easy to convict people based on things, you know, about them that actually aren't evidence in their current case. We just had a very high profile instance of that in New Hampshire where Harmony Montgomery's father, the state Supreme Court, overturned his murder conviction because they wrapped it up with an assault conviction, and it was prejudicial, and they should have separated the. And, you know, whether or not you think he's a bad guy, and I do think he's a bad guy, it actually gave me a little bit of hope to see that. Although I do think the Supreme Court is, you know, conservative and that he was. He was gonna stay in jail anyway. And I don't know if they would have done the same thing if he was gonna get out. But it gave me hope that at least that idea of his rights being violated being important despite him being a terrible person, is something we should be paying attention to. Kevin, what did you think about David Wood?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, from a narrative point of view, because Lars starts getting into it like, okay, we as an audience, are we supposed to be rooting for David, or are we just rooting for the process? And I think, though they did give us an excuse or reasons to be rooting for David, they don't come with it, like, right off the top. They do come off the top with sort of this idea that maybe the. The informants were set up so to make sure that they put the. Put, you know, they fingered him.

[Toby Ball]

They go back, they're talking to each

[Kevin Flynn]

other, but it's in real low tone,

[Toby Ball]

and they basically don't even want to

[Kevin Flynn]

talk to me about nothing. So I knew to myself, right then

[Toby Ball]

and there, they're going to say whatever

[Kevin Flynn]

they want them to say, which is, you know, very intriguing. But we also thought the DNA, you know, they. The only DNA they found excluded him, and there's all this other evidence that they refused to test. So, like, okay, in our minds, we can be like, okay, at least we have some sort of reason for going into it. To be more than just what's the process like, and that. Yeah. And then, like, later on, as Toby points out, when we get to meet David Wood, that we're. I mean, I think we're picking up, you know, what's getting put down here. It's like he is minimizing his roles in the sexual crimes that we know he did. Right. And so. Oh, so are we supposed to believe him when he says that he didn't kill any of these people here? And he continues to say, just follow my case. Like, I don't have anything to worry about. If you just look at my case, like, all right, you don't have to believe me, but look at my case.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, Greg told me, no, they're going

[Toby Ball]

to try to get you people as

[Rebecca LaVoy]

new as a person.

[Toby Ball]

Like, who cares what I think people think of me? I didn't do this case. Regardless of my past, let the case speak for itself.

[Kevin Flynn]

And they do a lot, I think, in here to give the audience, you know, again, reason to not see him as, you know, the Desert Killer, because they always refer to him as David or by full name, it's David Wood. And it's not, as, you know, criminally coded in the press as David Leonard Wood. Like, when you use all three names, like you're in trouble with your mom or you're on death row, it's one of those two things. And so they do give us the idea of perhaps some actual innocence here to go along with finding out what this process is all about. They do give us an alternate suspect.

[Toby Ball]

I thought it was interesting. One call back to the very beginning of our show was that he, basically, from the other side of the spectrum, makes the same argument that Adnan was making during. During Serial, which is. And at the time it was like, adnan, you're such a nice guy. It's like, I don't want to hear that. You focus on the. The facts of the case and get me out of here.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

In this case, you're like, you are such a bad person. It's like, well, don't focus on that. Focus on the facts of the case. So. So I'm not going to be executed. And it's, you know, is. They're coming from two different places. But it's like my character is completely beside the point for whether or not I did this. And that's what you should be looking at. Which, again, I mean, it kind of goes back to what is the podcast looking to do? Like, what are the motivations behind what they're doing?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. And again, it gives the audience the opportunity to root for their success. And you can root for our success by joining us on Patreon.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's the business section.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you join us at Patreon.com partnersincrimemedia Get all sorts of exclusive content, including the crime writers on after show. On this week, we're going to do win of the week or loss of the week. We're all gonna talk about something that either was great that happened or horrible that happened. And it has nothing to do with Laura's microphone. Although I would like to just point out that we are hanging by a thread here and she's laughing, so it's fine.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Too bad she doesn't have a new one she could try that I've had

[Laura Bricker]

for two years that I'm too afraid to set up. Actually, it needs. It needs a software that I have to download.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, that would take five seconds.

[Kevin Flynn]

Ask Toby, because we got you exactly the thing that he got. Yeah, he should be able to troubleshoot it. But then again, Toby can only record on the left channel and his right channel is. But so we just. This is.

[Toby Ball]

I'm in Europe.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's a clown show.

[Toby Ball]

I'm in Europe. It's different over here.

[Laura Bricker]

It's on the driving on the other side of the road.

[Kevin Flynn]

They record on the other side of

[Rebecca LaVoy]

the street, the water goes down the drain in the opposite direction.

[Kevin Flynn]

Something like that. That's Australia. Also, exclusive content includes Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast, the advice show Married with Podcast, Rebecca and Mel Barrett's True Crime updates on Something's off audio version. And if you come in as a Brichter scaler, you'll get another exclusive podcast. It's Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker podcast, in which Laura Bricker solves mysteries, or at least mysteries to her and her quaint revolutionary wartown of Exeter, N.H. 250th anniversary. Our semi sesquicentennial.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Correct. Very good.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thank you, Lara. You're going to talk about Exeter's ties to.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I have a special. I will have this out for the fourth of July, like for this big event that's happening. We have a claim in Exeter. Very patriotic. The longest continually performing community brass band. And they are doing a special event for the 250th.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's fantastic. I can't wait to hear some of the music. And if you read any of the Piper Green Books, you'll know that Exeter has that Revolutionary War Festival. Is that what it's called?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So many festivals.

[Laura Bricker]

It's the. Yeah, the Revolutionary War Festival. They now call it the Independence Festival. And it's two weeks after the fourth of July because that's how long it took for the Declaration of Independence to reach Exeter. So that is when Exeter sets off its fireworks.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, okay. Wonderful, wonderful. If you become a member at the let's do what we do level, you'll get episodes of Crime Writers on early and ad free. And if you are a deep diver, you'll get all of that, including being an official sponsor of Toby Balls Deep Dive Book Club podcast. Toby and his guests are currently discussing the book the Other side of Prospect. Now, other ways to support us include our Amazon storefront, where you can see some of our favorite things. Rebecca, can you tell us what are this week's Amazon recommendations?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, Kevin, I discovered something incredible that one can purchase on Amazon.

[Kevin Flynn]

What's that?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Dole Whip mix, which I'm gonna try out in our ninja Slushy machine. Remember Dole Whip? Like the delicious pineapple soft serve ice cream you get at Disney World and other places?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

They make a mix for it where you just like add water and stuff and you can make it in your Ninja Slushy machine.

[Kevin Flynn]

Wow. It's like having the Tiki Lounge right in your own house.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

100%. It's like being by the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, it's like the one with the racially troubling tropical birds who do the singing.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Toby Ball.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Great Deep cut ride at Disney.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's a deep cut ride. Toby Ball, can you tell us what are your listener inspired Toby Ball's Deep Cut recommendations.

[Toby Ball]

We're starting off with the gummy bear guy.

[Kevin Flynn]

Sour.

[Toby Ball]

World's largest gummy worm. Cherry and blue raspberry. It's a 26 inch 2 pound sour gummy worm. Roughly. Roughly 128 times the size of a regular one and approximately 3000 calories.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you eat a whole worm, you

[Rebecca LaVoy]

just like cut it into slices and like put it on a tray.

[Toby Ball]

You just eat the whole goddamn thing at once.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you want to see somebody eat it on OnlyFans, you can.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

What else you got, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Well, this. This is an invention that didn't need to be invented. It is a Gaia banana slicer tool for kids. Safer than knife abs plastic and stainless steel cutter. It's a banana slicer. One press slices an entire banana instantly into uniform pieces. No knife needed. Dishwasher safe, $6.99. I don't recall ever trying to slice a banana into pieces when I was a kid.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I mean, you have to slice it for kids, like if they can't like

[Kevin Flynn]

put it in your Cheerios.

[Toby Ball]

But, but, but they shouldn't be using a slicer by themselves in that case.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

But you know what? You know what's safer than that is like teaching a kid how to use a knife. Which I did with my kids when they were two and they never. They were fine. They were completely fine. Give them a duck butter knife, let them cut the banana themselves, they'll be fine.

[Toby Ball]

Just eat the fucking banana. Come on.

[Kevin Flynn]

There is a, there is a market for this. I will say I would love to have been there when this, you know, the idea for this invention came up.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin, you have a hard boiled egg slicer, you 100% use that thing.

[Toby Ball]

Oh, that's. That, that's a classic though. That's been around for ages.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, no one needs to protect their children from bananas.

[Laura Bricker]

I have the hard boiled egg maker.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Mmm.

[Laura Bricker]

Like a little pod that you put the eggs in.

[Commercial Narrator]

Oh, really?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I thought it was called a pot of water.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, a pot of water.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

Well, I used to, but I was on a real kick with hard boiled eggs and somebody gave this to me for Christmas. It's pretty fun.

[Kevin Flynn]

And that's why Laura's house smells like farts.

[Angie Hicks]

Uh huh.

[Kevin Flynn]

So you see all of that when you shop us first when you go to Amazon. It's Amazon.com shop crimewriterson. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin, before we end the business section, do we have any Patreon patron saints of the week?

[Kevin Flynn]

This week our Patreon patron saints are Venetta Fervirt and Rose Phillips.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Ah, bless you, Veneta and Rose. I can't thank you enough for supporting the show. Patreon is the engine that keeps us going. If you like the show and you want it to continue into the future, please consider supporting us on Patreon. It is the really the only way we can keep doing it. So Kevin does. Thus end our business section.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Babe, that music out.

[Laura Bricker]

The all new Tropical Butterfly refresher is now at Starbucks.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

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[Laura Bricker]

flavors with mango pineapple popping pearls bursting in every sip. Ice cold, instantly refreshing and impossible to put down. Made for summer, only at Starbucks.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, our sponsor is Quince.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin, I'm wearing a quince dress right now.

[Kevin Flynn]

I know. Hold on now, don't get ahead of ourselves. The biggest, best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. Comfortable, versatile, and somehow right for almost every occasion. And Quince makes it easy to create a summer wardrobe that you'll love with things like.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What is this incredible linen wrap dress? I wear this dress all the time. This button down like camp dress. I love it.

[Kevin Flynn]

They've got such amazing European linen products, shirts that I have. It's great for the summertime.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I just ordered.

[Kevin Flynn]

Very comfortable yet elegated. Wait, wait, wait. I mean elevated. Elevated. But we don't know you just ordered more stuff from Quint.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, that's.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I was European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, man. Oh man.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Sorry.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, it's okay. It's okay. At this point though, Quince, please, you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think they're at Quint's.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

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[Kevin Flynn]

Bonjour High.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

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[Commercial Narrator]

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[Laura Bricker]

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin, I have a question for you.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You know, I have long term issues with the way that the serial team coaches reporters and producers to track their stories. They Love this flat tracking affect somebody I know a little bit. Sean Cole, I heard, did the tracking direction in this. And it's been a real problem with some of the podcasts to the point of distraction, like the Laramie show. Like, distracting tracking. The issue with it here, in my opinion, is. And I'm so glad you had this note. Cause I'm like, did I miss something? I had no idea that there were actually two different people hosting this podcast.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Until, like, they specifically said it, like, in episode five or whatever.

[Kevin Flynn]

That was what I have.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

It wasn't till episode five that I realized there were two separate narrators. I knew there was a producing team,

[Rebecca LaVoy]

and I thought it was a different mic. I thought, oh, he just switched mics there for a second.

[Kevin Flynn]

All of a sudden.

[Laura Bricker]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

It sounds like, you know, would call a pickup line, which is like when someone goes back and retracts something, sometimes tonally, it doesn't match. So I was just kind. Because the two guys sound very much alike.

[Maurice Shama]

Most prisoners on death row are not pursuing innocence claims. David Wood is rare in that sense. I roam the halls of the office feeling a little silly, wondering if pointing my microphone at Naomi's typing is a better use of my time than pointing my microphone at Jeremy staring at a screen.

[Kevin Flynn]

Now, that's not a fault of theirs or anything like that. But it ended up being, in some cases, you know, and we've said this with different podcasts, it ends up being a little difficult to figure out who's who. Now, it doesn't really matter in the sense that so long as you're sort of oriented as to what scene you're in and who you're with and what's going on, that's fine. But they really didn't signpost much at all. I believe the entire first episode was Maurice. Right.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't know anymore. I thought so, but who knows?

[Kevin Flynn]

Sort of setting up the idea of, like, here we are now. Now we, you know, it ends with like, okay, I'm gonna follow you around. And like, when they referred to, like, my producer, and I didn't say my producer, but the producer is doing. Every time, like, something came up that was probably very obvious to them, I would just listen and kind of like, just think I'm not hearing it right or I'm not following correctly. And so there was that. Now it doesn't change the information really at all that we get here. It could have very easily been done with all Maurice and no Alvin narration. And if they had done what a lot of podcasts do, which is the very performative debrief where the two talk to each other. It would have been very obvious that we've got multiple people here, you know, and I'll go back, I'll just read the transcript and just like, try to figure out, okay, where was this handoff and why did I miss it? Was it that subtle?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Why does it exist?

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't think that they lost anything by doing it with two people. So I don't know if they really added anything by doing it with two separate people. But, yeah, I was. I was kind of shocked and I kind of missed that because I do listen to podcasts for a living.

[Toby Ball]

They would split up sometimes. Like, that was. That was the. When I. The only reason why I knew there were two, and it didn't really matter to me one way or the other, but they're like, oh, we had to split up because somebody did this and somebody else did this and.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

And that seemed like if you only had one, you'd, you know, you'd obviously have to pick and choose which thing you did. And maybe there were like four different things going on and they should have had four people, but, you know, they definitely were sort of following different people on the same day at times.

[Kevin Flynn]

Madeline Baron will do the same thing sort of in one of these. In the dark. So there's another producer who's doing stuff like that.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, we do it in a clear handoff.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. You know, and I don't know. It's a venal sin. It's.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You know, we do. We do. Typically at nhbr, we keep one host because we understand the audience to build. And if there's somebody else, like Operation Nightcat had Nate hosting, but Lauren co reported, and you heard her in some scenes asking questions, but. So she became more like a. A character in the podcast. But her credit was right up front. Like she doesn't need to host it to get the credit for co reporting. Right. So, Lara, one of the things that stuck out to me in the show, and I have strong feelings about journalistic puritanism, and there's one scene in this show which demonstrates it to you.

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't know what you're gonna say.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

In my opinion, ridiculous degree where the reporter goes and interviews the mother of one of the victims of the case because the lawyers are gonna go talk to her to see if they can basically to get her on their side. Right. And so he does an interview with her first, so he knows where she lives, he's been there, whatever. And then he's Tagging along in the car with the lawyers, and they don't know where he lives. And out of journalistic puritanism, I won't just tell them and lets them drive around for an hour and a half until they see a garden gnome on the lawn.

[Toby Ball]

Are we getting warmer or colder?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Okay.

[Maurice Shama]

I think it was about an hour into this car ride when I started to wonder if maybe I'd taken this all a little too far. If maybe my journalistic ethics were about to get me forcibly ejected from the backseat of a moving vehicle.

[Toby Ball]

It was a gnome back there, Laura.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What did you think about that? And I guess more importantly, what did you think about the interviews with the mother?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah. So, you know, I think I was listening to this when. And he's like, there's no opinion. This is very, like, kind of straightforward journalistic reporting, even though we're coming from somebody that's covered the death penalty for a long time. But that scene, I was getting. So I get it. Like, we don't want to insert ourselves in by giving directions. But at the same time, that felt kind of ridiculous. I understood where the. I get it. Like, we're gonna hold the line and we're not gonna help them at all. Because our role here is not to help. Our role is not to advocate. Our role here is just to tell this story. I felt for those attorneys at one point, they're like, you sure you can't tell us? And he's just like, no.

[Kevin Flynn]

But then it didn't the blink your eyes. Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Didn't the fact included that feel performative to you? It's one thing for them to do it that way. It's another thing for them to include telling us that.

[Laura Bricker]

It felt like, look at us, look at us. We are such. We are so pure as journalists in a way that. And. And I get. Like, when I. When I was a community journalist, it was really hard because you live in a community that you cover and. And event. And they'd be like, if you go to someone's house, never accept any water and this and that. And eventually you're just like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm taking the glass of water. It's not the end of the world. I'm still going to tell the story.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Don't eat at the campaign events, though, Lara. Don't eat at the campaign events.

[Laura Bricker]

You know what? When you're a young journalist and you're living paycheck to paycheck, you eat at the campaign fence, you see it. You see it all the time. But I Appreciated that mother as a character, because how many times has she had to tell her story? And, you know, first we hear the crew going out, the reporting crew talking to her. And I also felt like it was interesting that they. I don't know how forthcoming they were with her about the fact that they were embedded with this defense team, because I didn't know. Hear that kind of directly explained to her. It sort of was hinted about a little bit, but I don't feel. I guess I wondered if she understood the extent to which they were embedded with this defense team that then showed up at her house, like, very soon after this.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

And when they showed, you know, when the defense lawyer showed up, I mean, they had their plan, okay, the woman is going to be more sympathetic. She's going to be the one that's going to establish the rapport, and we're going to see what happens. But it felt awkward to me. I just felt like, so you're going out ahead of time. You're obviously not gonna tell the defense team what she said to you.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Laura Bricker]

And then you're gonna go out again when they go out, and it's gonna be like Groundhog Day.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah. He said that she gave him permission to be there the second time when he. I believe he said something like that. But again, just tell. Just show us, like, just show us what the result was. And that stuff, it just gets under my skin a little bit. Cause I feel like it's like. It's like almost like a passive aggression toward other journalists in some way.

[Laura Bricker]

Virtue signaling.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah. Yeah, a little bit like that. It's just. And I think in 2026, kind of unnecessary to stand by the reporting, so. Toby, one of the things that I know frustrates you and frustrates me, too, is the adversarial nature of the criminal legal system makes it such that prosecutors are so invested in keeping their win that they refused to even listen or acknowledge that any defense attorney's arguments, despite what they may be, could possibly be true. When you heard, you know, sort of the prosecution response to these, you know, pretty reasonable arguments about why this thing should be looked at, what did you think about what they had to say?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, so I, again, I think Texas, as a very conservative state, like, starts from the top with the governor, who I think they said granted clemency once out of, you know, however many clemency appeals went to his desk. But, yeah, it's. They. They definitely seem to see these people as sort of professional nuisances. I was talking about the Capitol Defense Lawyers who are just kind of trying to throw up obstacles into the. Into the workings of the death penalty machinery and maybe aren't taking it too seriously. And it's like, well, yeah, that's what they're supposed to do, right? I mean, that's their job. Yeah. It's sort of this disdain that's shown for anybody who's doing this kind of work. Like, this feels like kind of an extreme version of it. Again, because you're arguing over somebody's life. So when you are sort of trivializing these arguments, you're basically trivializing the decision to kill this person. I was talking to slight tangent, but I was talking to a guy yesterday. We were having drinks, and he'd been to one of the bullfights in Valencia where they kill the bull, and he was talking about how solemn it is and how much respect is given to the bull that's being killed and how it's this very emotional thing. It's sort of showing the sacrifice that this animal makes to feed people and things like that. So sort of this performative thing. But I compare that to, like, the workings of this Texas judicial system in which that they're not giving that same kind of respect and dignity to, like, a human being who they're making a decision with about this. It's troubling to me that. That more people don't find it troubling, quite honestly. And, you know, they said there's over 170 people on death row in Texas.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

I mean, that's insane. And just statistically, like, you know, some of them are going to be innocent. Like, they're all. 170 of those people are not definitely guilty. That's just. This is not the way the stats go. It's a. It's a thing in part of our society that it's hard for me to wrap my head around how, you know, how sort of disdainful they are. And these are people who claim religious high ground and all this stuff, but you know how little dignity and thought they give to sort of doing the. Making the ultimate decision on somebody's guilt.

[Kevin Flynn]

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[Commercial Narrator]

Okay, imagine this. A honeybee is out here doing her thing in an orchard. Lands on a mystery apple blossom, then carries that pollen over to a honeycrisp tree. Fast forward a few months and no exaggeration, something amazing is born. The Sugar Bee Apple. Packed with notes of honey, caramel and molasses, plus an extra crisp crunch, Sugar Bee apples are perfect for snacking, baking and everything in between. Download our new free recipe book and find a store near [e-mail], sugar Bee apples naturally sweet from bee to you.

[Laura Bricker]

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[Angie Hicks]

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[Laura Bricker]

all

[Rebecca LaVoy]

right, let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the last 12 weeks. It's the latest podcast from Serial Productions in the New York Times in collaboration with the Marshall Project. Bricker, thumbs up or thumbs down for the last 12 weeks?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I'm going thumbs up with this. You know me, my background as a defense investigator, anytime we have an opportunity to go behind the scenes in defense work and kind of see the other side of what happens in the justice system, I'm all for it in this case. I said it's a little bit like when we got to go behind the scenes with Michael Peterson's attorneys in the staircase. But we're going behind the scenes with a team on a Capitol murder case in Texas and you really get a sense of the ticking of time as there's a countdown and the countdown to this execution and what happens on this defense team as that is happening. And, and that just the challenges in re examining a case so many years later, trying to find witnesses, evidence that hasn't been tested, that needs to be tested. And for me, you know, hearing kind of the thinking about the psychology of what it takes to be an attorney that takes on those capital cases and just what does it Take to be involved for years knowing that you're fighting essentially to save somebody's life. And that takes a special type of person and a special type of an attorney. So I appreciate that we get to go behind the scenes. I mean, I think there are areas in this that I would have liked to know. Like Rebecca, I would have liked to know more about these attorneys because I want to know, like, how did you get into this as opposed to another type of defense work. But overall, I thought this was interesting. And it was five episodes. I binged it in one day while I was out hiking in the White Mountains. And so I would give this a thumbs up.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Toby Ball. Thumbs up or thumbs down for the last 12 weeks.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I like this a lot. I, I'm trying to think of the last time I like this one of the serial productions as much as I like this. And I can't think of it, but I'm sure there was probably was one. I think anytime we can shine more light on the death penalty process, I think that is, is a good thing. I kind of feel like this gives you like, the most exciting aspects of this kind of work. As the deadline, you know, the, the day of the execution is coming up and everybody's trying to, to do everything they possibly can to, to stop it from happening. I kind of feel like you get like what you would see like in a. If you're doing a documentary TV show, which I guess it's not that much different, so there's less like going through files and stuff and more like going out and talking to people and stuff like that. Yeah, but I thought, I thought it was really good. They have a lot of interesting interviews, both with, not so much with, I guess the lawyers. You hear the lawyers talking about things, but then some of the people who the lawyers go and talk to that you kind of hear and some of the people who the journalists go and talk to, it's all pretty interesting. So, yeah, I liked a lot. I'm a big thumbs up.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm also a thumbs up for this. I sometimes imagine Laura Bricker standing at the edge of a wishing well, her head in both palms of her hand, just staring away and imagining finding valuable information in a defense case at a Whataburger. And this is kind of what this is. Yeah, it's an unprecedented look inside a capital murder case. Not as the trial's going on, but, you know, trying to save the life of somebody that they honestly believe is innocent and wrongfully convicted. So you get to kind of go along you can be skeptical going in. You can be full bore going in. There are things here that, like, may twist your perspective back and forth a little bit, but it's not a twisty story. It's not melodramatic. It's pretty straightforward, which helps make it very compelling. Serial productions, all these sorts of shoots for, like, a bigger story under the main one. Like the idiot being kind of a swing and a miss here, maybe being the exception for trying to tell the, you know, the zoom out or whatever. Even the good whale had something, you know, that you could. You could. Yuck. The good whale, but whatever.

[Toby Ball]

Some tunes and stuff.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. You know, the musical episode again, maybe a swing and a miss. I liked it, but that's. But we can bicker about that another time. In this case, the larger issue is very obvious. Right. And I think they do make a good point at the end about sort of the arbitrary nature of the death penalty. And it ends up like, could somebody have been put to death or could they have been spared based on what somebody says in a Whataburger or in an old court filing or by picking apart something that they picked apart one month too late after someone is executed? So it's a really good look. It's a deep dive and not overly done. Five episodes, maybe I would go for six, I don't know. But you get a good look at these characters here. It's not preachy. It's not preachy. I like it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, I liked it too. I'm giving it a thumbs up. I think it's the best work the Serial Productions has put out in a really long time. It's a little thin. It felt a little thin to me. I did feel like it could have been a little bit longer and gone a little more in depth. If they're gonna focus on characters and the Ride along, which I love, a Ride along podcast, then let us spend some more time with the characters in the podcast. And so that felt a little thin. I do really like the Marshall Project's work, which is typically pretty brainy. And I do feel like I would have liked to have heard a little bit more of that, you know, sort of in depth expose look at the worst parts of our criminal legal system that the Marshall Project is so known for. That being said, I found it somewhat surprising, you know, besides the couple of displays of performative journalistic puritanism, as I said in the review, purity. It was really solidly done. It was really solidly done. So, yeah, I'm a thumbs up for this one. I'M a thumbs up for the last 12 weeks. Now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little something I like to call the crime of the week. Officials in Mexico are on the lookout for an unknown vigilante the newspapers are calling Batman. Over several nights, at least five suspected bike thieves in Jalisco have been captured, beaten up, and left duct taped to the lampposts for police to find them. The men had mustaches and cat whiskers sharpied on their faces along with the Spanish word for thief. Warning signs to other criminals were posted at the scene. Reporters are eating up the story of a Batman prowling their streets. They say police are slow to react to complaints and love the idea of a dark night fighting crime. Prosecutors say the alleged crooks will be prosecuted, but right now they're being treated as victims because they were assaulted and unlawfully restrained. The thieves did not say whether their punisher wore a cowl or a cape or drove a really cool car that shoots flames out of the back. Police have no suspects, but say for help they will turn to a local millionaire who owns a mansion above a cave that he accesses down a fire pole. Holy irony, Batman. What other superhero antics will happen in this Mexican town? Laura Bricker, what do you think?

[Laura Bricker]

I mean, it seems kind of like a no brainer that Spider man is next and he's gonna string up with his spidey webs some shoplifters on like the power lines, like put them in a net with like maybe a post it note on them announcing their crime or be best. I don't know.

[Toby Ball]

Be best.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I have a feeling I know what you're gonna buy.

[Toby Ball]

You think they're hooking up with Melania to bust. I was actually gonna say.

[Laura Bricker]

I don't know where that came from.

[Toby Ball]

I was actually gonna say Spider man getting a shoplifter. So thanks, Lara Scooped. So I'm desperately trying to think of another superhero right off the top of my head.

[Maurice Shama]

I don't know.

[Toby Ball]

Just a green guy in purple pants walking around putting people head first in their trash cans.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's not bad. What do you think, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, there's a new superhero wearing a new trench coat, but he's called the Flash and it's not great.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Not the Flash.

[Kevin Flynn]

The Flash.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, all right, I got it.

[Kevin Flynn]

It looked like a penis, only smaller.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's gonna do it for us. But before we go, Lara Bricker, do we have a cat of the week this week?

[Laura Bricker]

Our cat of the Week this week week comes to us from listener Karen Burwell and it is a dog. Karen's dog, shiloh is a 14 and a half year old black lab. She loves everyone and is loved by all. She is gentle with all children and lovely, accepts any rescue animal we adopt. She has been my faithful running companion as Karen trains for marathons and then half marathons. Shiloh has slowed down the past couple of years after being hit by a car that wrecked her hips. But she still loves when the grandkids or company come over and Shiloh is out running in playing in a, in a, some water and also with a very cute cat. So this looks like a great dog.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right. All right. Laura Bricker, if folks want to reach out to you to submit any kind of animal to be cat of the week, how can they find you online?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me at Laura Bricker on Instagram and Blue Sky.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Toby? How can you be found if folks

[Toby Ball]

want to say hi@tobyball603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm EvanPeflint.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

If you want to follow me on Twitter, Instagram or everywhere, you can find me eblavoie. And the show is literally everywhere, everywhere at crimewriterson. But mostly you should join our Facebook group. It's rad. Get episodes early and ad free and everything else we make at [e-mail] partnersincrimemedia Our theme song was composed and performed by Tyler Givens. The executive producer and editor of this show is Kevin. This show was recorded in studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also have one eternal optimist and one pessimist who can't stop swearing.

[Kevin Flynn]

Get off your fucking tread machine.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. Host Maurice Shama and producer Alvin Milath give the audience an unprecedented look inside a legal team's efforts to find evidence and craft legal arguments that will pause the execution of David Wood, the so called desert killer. Although you wrote desert killer.

[Toby Ball]

Dessert. Dessert killer.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hey, that guy has taken out so many Jim Dandies.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Listen, I am the so called dessert killer.

[Toby Ball]

I, I was, I was looking at that. I'm like, I don't remember that aspect of things, but maybe I was a dessert killer.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay, okay.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Last meal was just 10 Sundays. All right.

[Toby Ball]

Is that is.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's the last 12 Sundays.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, you ready?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I think we have to take that one over.

[Laura Bricker]

Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

But thanks for the outtake.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Commercial Narrator]

Partners in Crime Media.

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