Deep Cover: The Family Man

Summary

Crime Writers On... Episode: Deep Cover: The Family Man (July 27, 2026) Podcast by Partners in Crime Media

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Crime Writers On team—Rebecca Lavoie, Kevin Flynn, Laura Bricker, and Toby Ball—review and discuss the Pushkin podcast Deep Cover: The Family Man, hosted by Jake Halpern. The story follows Keith Giamanco, a single father turned serial bank robber, exploring not just his motivations but, more importantly, the far-reaching consequences of his crimes on his twin daughters, Elise and Marisa. The conversation delves into themes of family fallout, personal responsibility, the true meaning of ‘victim’, and the complicated nature of love and loyalty.

---

Key Discussion Points

What Is ‘Deep Cover: The Family Man’?

• Blending of Genres

  • Not a traditional true crime narrative—it’s part crime, part family memoir.
  • Focuses on the question: What sentence do the family members of criminals serve? How do they rebuild their lives? (Laura, 09:34)
  • “It’s a family story of… the effects of a crime that we don’t normally think of, told over a very long period of time." – Laura Bricker [09:34]

• Comparisons and Touchstones

  • Panelists recall similar stories, such as the podcast Hooked and the TV show Weeds, highlighting the familiar “parent turns to crime to save family” trope—but finding that Deep Cover dives into darker, more mundane, and ultimately more honest territory. (Toby, 07:36)
  • Parallels drawn to Breaking Bad and the idea of “doing the wrong thing for the right reason.” (Kevin, 13:21)

Portrayal and Motivations of Keith Giamanco

• Mixed Motives and Narratives

  • Debate over whether Keith’s motivation (“I did it for my family”) is sincere, self-delusional, or self-exonerating.
  • “He’s also the one who put himself in a shitty financial situation… and he’s telling the story like, I was the hero dad just trying to, like, provide for my kids. And I found myself wondering if I should be buying that or not.” – Rebecca Lavoie [11:25]
  • “I feel like there was some yada, yada, yada... I don’t know if he was completely candid, either with Jake or with himself.” – Kevin Flynn [12:08]

• Manifesting and Justification

  • Keith’s attitude toward his crimes: a “new age-y” refusal to consider fear or consequences, focusing instead on manifestation and positive thinking.
  • “He kinda has this childlike naivete about his… impact on other people.” – Toby Ball [15:37]
  • Quote from Keith about his arrest: “Are you surprised that this moment has finally happened?... The only difference was that a bank employee broke bank policy and protocol... and followed me out.” – Toby (paraphrased from Keith) [14:45]

The Impact on the Daughters

• Divergent Paths and Trauma
  • Elise and Marisa represent diverging paths:
    • Elise “has her act together,” goes to college, succeeds.
    • Marisa “just starts partying, [then] actual addiction,” eventually falling into homelessness, addiction, and sex work, sometimes enabled by their mother. (Toby, 30:34)
    • “If you want to fix your money problem, I have a solution for you. If you want to make easy money, then you have to sleep with these guys. She’s like, it’s the easiest way to make money quickly.” – Laura Bricker [31:15]
  • Discussion on how the twins process their father's actions and the complexity of loving someone who’s hurt you: “What does love look like when he did this?… But at the same time, your father has always been very nurturing.” – Laura Bricker [18:46]

Host Jake Halpern’s Style and Influence

• Interviewing Technique
  • Praised for his empathetic, organic approach; he allows interviewees to open up on their own time, extracting emotional and nuanced material, especially from the daughters. (Laura, 32:24)
  • However, some panelists note the show’s pacing is slow and occasionally ponderous, sometimes lacking narrative drive. (Rebecca, 49:02)
  • “It is a very quiet podcast... The drama is not the crime; it is the family drama here.” – Kevin Flynn [34:59]

Narrative, Privilege, and Public Perception

• Public Image vs. Reality

  • The team discusses the “white privilege” in media narratives about men like Keith, who commit crimes for supposedly noble reasons and expect sympathy. (Rebecca & Toby, 37:04)
  • “Isn’t that some delusional, like, white privilege shit, though?... I want an in-ground pool, not an above-ground pool.” – Rebecca Lavoie [37:04]
  • Comparison to how fictional versions (Weeds, Ozark) romanticize or glamorize similar stories.

• Media Response

  • Keith’s appearance on national media (“Good Morning America”) is dissected, showing how public statements can undercut his motives. “Basically, to afford them the lifestyle that they've always had, to send them to the school that I was sending them to so they could wear the clothes that they always wore,” is met with skepticism. – [Kevin quoting Keith, 36:21]

The Panel’s Final Take (Thumbs Up/Down)

[Timestamps refer to review section: 44:20–49:02]

• Laura Bricker: Mild thumbs up. Appreciates the nuanced look at the sentence served by families. Calls out pacing as an issue but highlights value in the daughters’ perspectives.
• Toby Ball: Mild thumbs up. Points to the value in what’s unspoken and nuanced family fallout, but notes inconsistent writing and pacing.
• Kevin Flynn: Mild thumbs up. Praises the focus on human drama, though wishes for more probing into Keith’s rationalizations.
• Rebecca Lavoie: Thumbs sideways. Found the story ponderous and less compelling, questioning why this story above others was chosen to spotlight.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rebecca (07:36): “What is this podcast? Is it a true crime story? Is it a memoir? …How would you characterize it?”
• Toby (08:55): "It felt to me like a… prestige drama… but the actual what happens doesn't feel like that at all. It's just... darker and sort of delusional thinking."
• Laura (09:34): “What is the sentence that the family members of somebody charged with a crime… serve and how do they rebuild their lives?”
• Kevin (13:21): “Part of this reminded me of Breaking Bad... when he gets to the series finale and... he just admits... ‘I was doing it for me.’”
• Toby (15:37): "It sounds more like a child kind of trying to justify what he's done."
• Laura (18:46): “What does love for your father look like in this situation when he did this?...”
• Rebecca (37:04): "Isn't that some delusional, like, white privilege shit, though?"

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• Show opens/main theme: [00:52]–[04:51]
• Discussion of ‘Deep Cover: The Family Man’ begins: [05:24]
• Panel definitions & first impressions: [07:36]–[11:17]
• Analysis of Keith’s motivations and family impact: [11:17]–[19:57]
• Media comparison, public perception: [20:19]–[38:31]
• Panel final review (Thumbs up/down): [44:11]–[49:02]

---

Tone & Style

• Conversational, witty, sometimes irreverent, balancing empathy for the subjects with sharp media critique.
• The panel’s banter touches on pop culture comparisons (Weeds, Breaking Bad, Hell or High Water, Say Anything), reflecting on both the narrative and the broader implications.

---

Summary for New Listeners

Crime Writers On’s discussion of Deep Cover: The Family Man is a thoughtful, candid, and sometimes critical exploration of a podcast that sprawls outside conventional true crime boundaries. What interests the panel most is the cost of crime beyond its immediate victims, examining the collateral damage within a family structure, and questioning the stories we tell ourselves and the world to rationalize bad decisions. While they are divided on the necessity and pacing of this particular story, all agree that its most valuable asset is in chronicling the long-term impact of crime on the innocent and the gray spaces of familial love and obligation.

---

For Listeners: Should I Listen to Deep Cover: The Family Man?

• If you’re looking for a procedural or investigative true crime podcast, this may not be for you.
• If you’re interested in slow-burn, character-driven family stories, and want to hear the perspectives of people left behind by crime, you will likely find value here.
• The panel’s consensus: It’s worth trying, especially for the family dynamics—but manage your expectations regarding pace and narrative payoff.

Transcript

[Toby Ball]

When you clock in with Ford Pro, we clock in with power, business driven tech, adaptability and service that comes to you when you're on we're on Ford Pro.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

With a Capital One Saver card, you'll earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment and at grocery stores. And for a limited time, new card members can earn a $250 cash bonus after spending $500 on purchases within. So grab a bite, grab a seat and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Savor card. Capital One what's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.comsavor for details.

[Kevin Flynn]

To get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimedia.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, a single dad turns to robbing banks to save his struggling family. In the end, his actions destroy it. We review the podcast Deep Cover the family man from Pushkin. Joining me to get that done and more is True Crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast. My husband and my family man. It's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca, I would rob a bank for you.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You better. That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'd have a better disguise, I think.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I don't think wearing one of those ghillie hats or whatever. The booty hat, the boonie hat is a good idea.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, no, I'm gonna go old fashioned with a mask.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Final Curtain, it's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And finally, it is our captain of all things cynical, author of the City trilogy, host of Strange Arrivals, and our Patreon Deep Dive Book Club podcast, Toby Ball. Hola, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Kevin, Yes, I am very excited about the next edition of Crime Writers on.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What will we be talking about? Not on this episode, but in the future.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. So a week from today, we will be talking about the new podcast from Audible Originals. It's called Dan Tabursky's Manifesto.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I hope it stars Dan Tabursky.

[Kevin Flynn]

It does. And there's an exclamation point after manifesto. So I'm sure this is a high powered Dan Tabursky.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I just want to say I do feel exceedingly proud that along with Leon Neyfock, Dan Tabursky actually emails me when he has a new show coming out because he wants to make sure that he has the best Possible chance of us listening to it on the show. And I'm like, dan, you don't need us.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Dan is going to be severely disappointed that Toby will not be around for that review because as Dan Taburski has said, quote, I just want to get a thumbs up from Toby Ball.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

A qualified thumbs up. He just wants a thumbs up. Up without any buts or, like, but, you know, strong. Until running.

[Toby Ball]

Running from cobs. Didn't I give that an unqualified thumbs up?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Probably. You probably had some complaint about it. You know how you are with Dan.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I know.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're not. You're not good to him. You're not good.

[Toby Ball]

I gotta hold him to a high standard. I'll listen to it and send him an email.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What's your. So that's your favorite Daniel Tabursky podcast

[Toby Ball]

thus far, Running from Cops?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

I don't know. I. I really like that one.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

But, you know, what's yours?

[Kevin Flynn]

I think it might be hysterical for me. I think that was one of my top.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, that was good.

[Kevin Flynn]

Top two.

[Toby Ball]

That was good, too.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

I kind of feel like my, like, qualms with the Richard Simmons thing may.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Have they poisoned you?

[Toby Ball]

Well, not poisoned me against them, but it's like the whole Adnan thing, making me the captain of all things cynical. I feel like that that left an aftertaste.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I see.

[Kevin Flynn]

Maybe.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I see.

[Toby Ball]

Anyway, yes, I love Dan's stuff. I anticipate giving him an unqualified thumbs up.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I mean, he's no Leon Nayfak for you, but whatever.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Lar? What's your favorite Tabursky joint?

[Laura Bricker]

You know, I don't know. I feel like I liked the Y2K one because I lived. I remember working in the newsroom when that was happening. I like all of them. I just. It's like anytime I'm like, oh. And then we often are like, oh, this reminds us of Dan Tversky because somebody is doing something in that same conversation style that makes you want to listen.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah. Mine is the Line. I love the Line so much because could there be a darker topic? And you have this guy who's just a master at making everything engaging. And literally he gets the guy to confess to killing the kid at the end of the podcast. It's pretty astonishing. And I really recommend if folks haven't listened to the Line to check that out. So anyway, that's next week. Dan Dabursky.

[Kevin Flynn]

Won't it be a huge disappointment if that podcast sucks after we just built it up? We haven't listened to any of it. We're like, oh, my God, Dan, I

[Rebecca Lavoy]

apologize in advance for all the thumbs downs we will be giving you for Dan Taburski's manifesto. But congratulations on even getting your name in the podcast. You're like the James Patterson of podcasting now.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, he's gonna Wang Chung that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're like the Stephen King of podcasting. Stephen King's whatever. Yeah. Stephen King's Carrie.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right. So, Kevin, should we talk about the podcast we are here to talk about now?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And it wasn't just the Florissant police. It was the FBI, it was the county police.

[Laura Bricker]

And I remember one of them saying, your dad is in a safe place. You don't have to worry about that. He's just in some trouble.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Like, that's literally what they said to me.

[Laura Bricker]

Like, nothing more than that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

In 2008, teenage twins Elise and Marisa Giamanco were stunned when police said their dad was secretly the prolific bank robber known as the Boonie Hat Bandit. A single father, Keith Giamanco said their family was constantly on the edge of financial ruin, so he robbed a dozen banks to pay the bills and hold off foreclosure.

[Toby Ball]

It was an all out onslaught of police cars, helicopters, cars in front of me, cars behind me blocked in, weapons drawn, and I knew that it was over.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Law enforcement and the public were not sympathetic to his claim that he did it just to support his daughters. With their father behind bars, the twins were left on their own to navigate finances, addiction, homelessness, and their deteriorating relationship. Giamanco came to realize the things he did to save his family were the very things that destroyed it.

[Toby Ball]

We all withhold things in order to protect our children. We all harbor secrets. It's just that some secrets are much bigger than others.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

The podcast Deep Cover the Family man from Pushkin tells the story of a financially struggling father who turned to a life of crime and how his double life affected him and his daughters. Host Jake Halpern conducts intimate interviews with the Giamancos to discuss the crime spree and explore the long lasting personal fallout from Keith's actions. Spoiler alert. We're gonna be talking about plot points from Deep Cover the Family Man. So if you wanna remain spoiler free, go to the estimated timecode in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Toby, what is this podcast? This is a question I was asking myself all through listening to it. What is this podcast? Is it a true crime story? It is a memoir. Is it a memoir Is it a timeline of things that happened? How would you characterize it?

[Toby Ball]

So it felt to me like a. Like, a little bit like Weeds or like, you know, a showtime, like, prestige drama, where it's like a dad finds himself with his back up against the wall, and he has to, like, help get his daughters into the private school or whatever. So he's, like, juggling all these things, decides to rob banks to make it happen like that. That seems like the premise, but the actual what happens doesn't feel like that at all. It's just, like, kind of a lot, I guess, darker and just, I don't know, like, sort of delusional thinking. I think, in a lot of ways, like, it's not. It's a. It's a pretty dark podcast, to be quite honest. I thought, like, the true crime part of it, it's mostly about the effects that the father getting caught had more than actually, like, what a typical true crime thing would be, like an investigation or whatever. So I guess it kind of falls more in sort of a family drama kind of thing. You know, the setup felt familiar, but where it kind of goes is sort of darker and to a certain extent, like, a little more mundane than I would have guessed.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, the setup is familiar. I really thought we had heard. Heard this story before. And then Kevin reminded me of the thing I was thinking about was a thing we listened to called Hooked, which was about, basically a suburban bank robber. I mean, some of the details are even the same, like going to the same bank twice or robbing two banks on one day. We heard that that happened in that podcast as well. And just sort of the mundanities of how. I don't want to say easy, but how relatively simple it is to pull off a bank robbery. Especially, like, you know, a while back. Like, you just walk in, hand them a note, they give you the shit, and you walk out. And if you park across the street behind a gas station, you're good to go. But, Laura, what do you think this podcast is? And for what it is, do you think it's successful?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah. So I don't think this is, like, what you're thinking, like a traditional, obviously true crime podcast. I think this is like family memoir and true crime blended together. But it's really. It's taking a story where we would be like, okay, we're gonna judge this guy for Robin Banks. Cause that was stupid. Cause he thought that was how he was gonna pay his mortgage. But it's breaking, like, the family system in an honest way. It's Like, I think it's asking the question of, like, what is the sentence that the family members of somebody charged with a crime, what sentence do they serve and how do they rebuild their lives? And those are the other victims of a crime. It's the. Yeah, the bank teller, the bank, they're victims. But we often don't think of the family members of the defendants in that same way. And I think this really does a good job. It's slow. I mean, it's slow. It's not something that's like a fast paced thriller, but it really takes you through these two daughters who take very different paths, how they react. And then I think we'll get into it with Keith himself. But I think it's a family story. But it's a family story of, you know, the effects of a crime that we don't normally think of, told over a very long period of time. So that we can really see how this plays out for these girls who are now grown women, and they were almost grown when this happened. And it's really interesting because it's like you have this. The father who's clearly, you know, he's in prison, but their mother is not a great influence. And it's like, how do these girls survive and who's looking out for them? And so it's not a traditional, like, okay, we're gonna, who done it? It's a, he did it. What are the other unintended consequences of that?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

One of the things, Kevin, that I asked myself when I was listening to this podcast is a lot of it hangs on Jake's conversation with Keith. Right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah. And the daughters, but go ahead.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And the daughters. Yes, but Keith is like the one telling the story about his motivations, about what he did, about X, about Y. And I found myself wondering where it is, like a relatively easy thing to, for lack of a better word, kind of vilify the mom for leaving and all that stuff. And, like, he's the one there and whatever. Like, he's also the one who put themself in a shitty financial situation where he had so much debt that he was then, you know, robbing banks. And he's. And he's telling the story like I was the hero dad just trying to, like, provide for my kids. And I found myself wondering if I should be buying that or not. What did you think?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, I would, I would disagree slightly with the idea that he, to this day, he's like, I'm a hero for doing this.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's not, that's not exactly what I meant by his characterizations of his motivation

[Kevin Flynn]

more than he was. Yeah, right, right. I mean, I feel like there was. There was some yada, yada, yada. You know, Keith today, like, takes. Seems to take full responsibility. He's not saying, I made bad mistakes, I made bad choices. Right. You know, he's saying that. But as far as what his. What his life was like before that, and sort of, you know, we hear like, oh, you know, we're going to. We're going to get foreclosed upon and stuff like that. But we also hear that, like, he'd be peeling $100 bills off and leaving tips at Olive Garden or whatever the. Yeah, the hell it was. Right. And so I don't know if he was completely cand, either with Jake or with himself about what he was doing or what, like, motivated him to keep going. And, you know, I mean, they did try to get into. Yeah, of course I knew that this was wrong, and I'm just sort of manifesting it or whatever. I remember, as you mentioned, Hooked and sort of another yada, yada is like, he says, like, you know, he just studied how to rob banks. I'm like, what do you go down to the library and pull out the how to rob a bank book by Jake?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Robbing banks for dummies.

[Kevin Flynn]

Robbing banks for dummies. And like, oh, and it works so well.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Close notes to robbing banks.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah. But part of this reminded me of Breaking Bad in Walter White. Well, Walter White, right. He, you know, he says, I'm like, I'm selling all this meth to raise money for my. My family. Cause I have terminal cancer and whatever. And that's, you know, that's the thing. But when you get to the series finale and, you know, he looks at Skyler, his wife, and he just admits. He said, I said I was doing it for my family and no, I was doing it for me. Right. Because he had this. Not to spoil Breaking Bad for people who haven't said that he had limitations. You know, it's like. But he ended up having sort of like this other alter ego. And, you know, it was like he said that he did it for himself. And I just don't know if Keith, when he takes responsibility and proclaims that he made bad choices, I don't know if he really expressed the other reasons that he made those choices.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You know, what do you think, Toby? Because he talks about how he thought robbing banks was gonna be, you know, his way out and all that stuff. But what do you think about his thought process. Was he actually taking this stuff seriously, considering consequences, or is this just a story he tells now to make that version of Keith seem like a less dubious character?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I mean, he's got like this kind of new Agey outlook where he, you know, he doesn't think about fairy because he doesn't want to manifest it. You know, he's like big into manifesting.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Very healthy, by the way.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I'm not sure that's the best way to like, figure out your criminal enterprise. But yeah, I think there's a lot of sort of retroactive justification for. For what he was doing. And he kind of like, even when he gets caught, he's like, I shouldn't have been caught. Like, you know, they're. They're taught not to do with that guy who ended up being the person who caught me did. Are you surprised that this moment has finally happened? Are you surprised that they. Sure, absolutely. Because I didn't do anything different than I had in any of the other robberies. The only difference was that a bank employee broke bank policy and protocol and against all law enforcement advice, left the building and followed me out.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

He followed me out to my car.

[Toby Ball]

I know you're not supposed to do that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Supposed to stay in your office, Mr. Bank Manager. Eat those lollipops.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I mean, so the whole thing, I mean, it sounds more like a child kind of trying to justify what he's done. It's like, oh, I didn't think anything bad was going to happen if I got caught. You know, it's like, dude, you've got two teenage daughters and they've been through this crazy situation with you and your. In your wife or ex wife or whatever it is at that point. And you know, you think that the possibility of going to jail is. That doesn't cross your mind about what the consequences of that would be. It either he's downplaying it or he's got sort of like this childlike naivete about his. In his impact on other people.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, well, there is this, like, I know this family where there's two daughters and they're both adults now. The mother abandoned the family when the daughters were children, obviously had some mental health issues, some drug issues, all that stuff. And the daughters have grown up to lionize their dad. Like, he's like, can do no wrong, would do no wrong. And meanwhile, this is somebody who actually has done quite a bit of wrong. But sort of in contrast to the legend of the mother who couldn't be there, there's just been this, like, myth built around him. And he robbed banks, you know, and the mother clearly had some serious issues, too, with substance use and all of that. And there's sort of this challenge, I think, to the two daughters, Lara, to tell their story in, like, a nuanced way. I mean, it would be difficult to just be like, dude, both of my parents fucking sucked. Like, I could imagine myself saying that. Do you feel like they feel pressure to see things in a more nuanced, more holistic way, or do you think that's actually how they feel?

[Laura Bricker]

I think that's how they feel. And I think, you know, that's how Keith, to me, comes across. Like, he is complex. He's not. I don't think he's all bad. I don't think he's all good. I mean, I think it's like they call him Robin Hood at one point. So it's like he's like a folk hero. And I think, who's he giving the money to?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

He's giving it to himself.

[Laura Bricker]

He's giving it to. Well, his kids. They are going to private school. They had uniforms and stuff, just like

[Toby Ball]

all the rest of the poor people.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah. But it's like, he's a lot of different things. And I think that's really the story that we are hearing play out through these daughters, you know, who are really kind of the heart of this podcast because they're trying to reconcile the version of their dad that they knew with the version of their dad that's the Boonie Hat Bandit. Just like, as you're doing it, it's like, how can you not. As you're robbing the bank, as you're handing the note over to the teller?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And it wasn't just one bank.

[Laura Bricker]

So at one point, are you, like, you know, really thinking about those dire consequences just totally aside. Did anybody else think that, like, the mother was, like, dead and buried in the backyard? I kept thinking, she's gonna have been murdered. She's gonna have murdered. And when they're like, the police were all outside in the backyard, I'm like. Cause that's where he buried the mother after she climbed in the window to get the vacuum cleaner.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

We've been trained. We've been trained to watch some. To expect some outcomes like that, for sure.

[Laura Bricker]

But I think with the daughters, I think it presents an interesting question, like, what does love look like? What does love for your father look like in this situation? When he did this, he did this. He's wrong. He robbed a bank. You now have no electricity. You're doing gofundmes to try to take care of yourself because you also don't have a mother. But at the same time, your father has always been very nurturing. And, you know, Elise and Marissa, you know, have up until that point, a sort of. They seems like normal childhood until this happens, but, you know, mysterious how their mother sort of goes away, and you see how this plays out for them at different times. They go through evolutions. It's like the stages of grief. It's like the stages of acceptance of, like, what's happening here with this. With this father of ours. And then you see, obviously, the two girls take very different paths. One ends up relying on the other parent, the mother, and also becoming a drug user and a sex worker to get the drugs. So in that context, you're like, okay, so he's a bank robber, but he was getting the money and getting them private school. Now the mother's here, but she's like, well, I know a way you can

[Rebecca Lavoy]

get some better drugs.

[Laura Bricker]

I think going through it with them. And I think starting with that scene in the car where they go back to the house they grew up in, There's a lot there. But it's again, like I said before, it's slow, and it's sort of this slow, like their processing of this relationship and how do they continue or do they continue to have that relationship with their father?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Hmm. Kevin, you said this reminded you of a Chris Pine show or movie?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, yeah. Do you guys remember the movie Hell or High Water?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No. Did we review it?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, we did not review it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I do love Chris Pine.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, it's. I think it was from 2015 or 16 or something like that. The idea is that he's gonna. He and his brother, like, they're gonna lose the family ranch, so he robs the banks to stave off foreclosure, like, from those actual banks. And so there was something about that, like, you know, I need. I. I need the money for a good cause. Now, Chris Pine, in the movie, what he did to launder it is he went to a casino, got a whole bunch of chips, and then sat at the bar for an hour and then went cash and chips. And then he got, like, a nice cashier's check to save the. You know, I. I like how they did that. I feel like maybe like, just looking at the video camera and seeing that, like, he wasn't at the pork table might have been the giveaway. But, you know, there were parts of that that kind of reminded me of that, like, you know, it's like, well, we're gonna. I'm gonna rob this bank because I have a great reason to do it. It's a great reason for you to, like, give us money at Patreon.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, it's like reverse bank robbing.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's exactly like that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're making a deposit.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. You're not giving us money here. You are supporting the show, and you're getting all sorts of great stuff.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Correct.

[Kevin Flynn]

For this content.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I think we mischaracterized it a little bit at the start there. It's not like we are robbing you. No, you are supporting something that you love, care about, and you're getting a lot in return. So it's really nothing like robbing.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I take that all back.

[Kevin Flynn]

I am not, like, hiding my hand in my pocket so it looks like I may have a gun.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're just doing that to hold your nipple.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm just. I'm just. Yeah, I'm just pressing on my belly button. Because if you join us and Toby and Laura are like, where the fuck is this going? Well, to tell you, if you join us at Patreon, you'll get each month more than 20 exclusive podcasts, sometimes up to 25 different episodes. We're just racking off stuff like the crime writers on After Show, Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast, which Toby and his guests recently discussed. The book Murderland. We have Married With Podcast, the Advice show, and we give advice to one listener whose neighbor keeps borrowing shit.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, my God, that guy.

[Kevin Flynn]

And breaking it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Jesus Christ.

[Kevin Flynn]

Set a boundary here. Say no, say no. And we also have Something's off, which is Rebecca and Mel's true crime podcast, looking at all things that are weird, including the ongoing Karen Reed drama. We have Bricker scalers, and those folks get another exclusive podcast. It's Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker, in which Lars solves mysteries, or at least mysteries to her and her quaint AF town of Exeter, New Hampshire, including the mysterious goings on at her condo association.

[Laura Bricker]

Mm. I'm taking it on. Apparently, I'm the squeaky wheel now, because I'm getting some response to some of my things, I think because they want me to stop asking questions.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Hell, yeah. You're the turtle boy of your condo is what you are. You're gonna be arrested and charged with felonies next.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Watch your back. Watch your back.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Watch your back.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you join us at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime Riders on early and ad free. And if you're a deep dive or you are an official sponsor of Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast. Toby. So if when people have finished listening to your discussion of Murderland and they are preparing their beach read so that they can be ready for the next deep dive, what book should they be reading?

[Toby Ball]

It's called the Tragedy of True Crime by John Lennon and it's spelled just like the guy you think it is.

[Kevin Flynn]

Is it like John L. Lennon, though? Hold on. The publisher's like, okay, hold on.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

We gotta imagine all the murders.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, well, that's funny because at the very beginning he talk. It's is a guy who's in prison and he's like, he like reads some of the. He puts in some of the headlines from when he got captured and stuff and it's all like these plays on Beatles tunes. Like, you know, suspect is a nowhere man. You know, like, whatever.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's just like, he is not the walrus. He's a murderer.

[Kevin Flynn]

By the way, the walrus was Paul.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I know.

[Kevin Flynn]

Another way to support us is at our Amazon storefront where you can see some of our favorite things. Rebecca, what are this week's crime writers on Amazon recommendations?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Well, Kevin, you know, people have mixed feelings about Amazon, but I like using Amazon for very specific kinds of purchases for a very specific reason. Such as when I went down to the Coach store in southern New Hampshire to look for a birthday gift from my mother and my sister. Sister. And I watched somebody try to return a purse when I was there. And boy did they put them through a rigamarole to do it. Taking it out of the stuff, putting it all as inspections, whatever. Whatever. I guess, I don't know. People try to return fake stuff when they buy real stuff. I don't know. I learned that you can buy Coach stuff from Coach on Amazon and that the returns are just like returning shit on Amazon in case it wasn't work out. So bought my mom and my sister a couple Coach bags on Amazon. Highly recommend that kind of platform if you want easy returns in case you. You bought the wrong gift.

[Kevin Flynn]

And Toby, what are your listener inspired Toby Ball's deep Cut recommendations.

[Toby Ball]

Well, this is something that you're not gonna wanna return. And that's pickle and bacon flavored candy cane gift set. Two pack light and bold. Ew, Pickle. And in all caps, bacon flavored candy canes. Because why should Peppermint have all the fun? 4.99.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm gonna vomit. That's nasty. We went to a soft serve place last night and they had dill pickle soft serve.

[Toby Ball]

Good God.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Hampton beach, man. That's horrendous shootings and pickle soft serve.

[Toby Ball]

No good for 2 cents less. For $4.97, you can get a funny nose pencil sharpener. One pack.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That seems fun.

[Toby Ball]

Just one. You only get one. A nose shaped pencil sharpener. Insert pencil crank. Shavings of birds from the nose.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I want one of those.

[Toby Ball]

I thought it was like you were sticking the pencil up the guy's nose.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That would make more sense.

[Toby Ball]

And letting the nose back like the shavings are the mucus or something. I don't know. Whatever. 4.97.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, maybe it's a special collector's edition.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

There is one where you can stick it up the one side of the nostril and the shavings come out the other side of the nostril. That's the overall pick for nose pencil sharpeners. It's called the Art Create nose pencil sharpener. This one is the same. The one you picked is the same funny nose pencil.

[Kevin Flynn]

There it is.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You stick it up one nostril and the shavings come out the other.

[Kevin Flynn]

Great gag gift.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Just as it should. Now we know what we're getting you for Christmas, Tony.

[Kevin Flynn]

Remember to shop us first when you go to Amazon. It's Amazon.com shop, shop. Crimewriters on Crimewriters on. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin, before we end the business section, do we have any Patreon patron saints of the week?

[Kevin Flynn]

This week our Patreon patron saints are Katie Pope and Sinandre James.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Bless you, Katie and Sinandre. Thank you so much for supporting this fine podcast with your contribution on our Patreon. We hope you like it. Back there in the champagne room of our podcast, getting all the free stuff we can possibly give you. Kevin. Thus ends the business section.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Let's go ahead and fade that music out right now. With a Capital One Savor card, you'll earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment and at grocery stores. And for a limited time, new card members can earn a $250 cash bonus after spending $500 on purchases within the first three months. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Savor card. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.comsavor for details.

[Laura Bricker]

Getting enough protein in the morning isn't easy.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You want something that fits your routine and tastes good. That' silk protein comes in. It's a new plant based protein milk with 13 grams of complete plant protein plus 3 grams of fiber and 50% less sugar than dairy milk. Pour a glass, blend it into a smoothie or add it to your coffee for the road.

[Laura Bricker]

Silk protein helps provide the nutrients you

[Rebecca Lavoy]

want more of with a great taste. Shop now for silk protein at a store near you. So Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, our sponsor is Quince.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin, I'm wearing a Quint's dress right now.

[Kevin Flynn]

I know. Hold on, Nana. Don't get ahead of ourselves. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. Comfortable, versatile and somehow right for almost every occasion. And Quince makes it easy to create a summer wardrobe that you'll love with things like.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What is this incredible linen wrap dress? I wear this dress all the time. This button down like camp dress. I love it.

[Kevin Flynn]

They've got such amazing European linen products. Shirts that I have. It's great for the summertime. You look.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I just ordered.

[Kevin Flynn]

Very comfortable yet elegated. I mean elevated. Elevated. But we don't know you just ordered more stuff for.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Did you see the package upstairs? A pair of pants.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, that's.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I was European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh man. Oh man.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Sorry.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, it's okay, it's okay. At this point though, Quince, please you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think there at Quint's.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quint.com crime crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bonjour High.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's Q-U-I-N-C e.com crime crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com crime crime

[Laura Bricker]

hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

May I suggest your big wireless bill?

[Laura Bricker]

It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat

[Rebecca Lavoy]

emotional arc, a shocking twist where you

[Toby Ball]

realize you've been overpaying the entire time.

[Laura Bricker]

Fortunately though, Mint's story is better.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Every plan. $15 a month, even unlimited. That's it.

[Laura Bricker]

Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a [e-mail] Save upfront payment

[Rebecca Lavoy]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for a 12 month plan. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees.

[Laura Bricker]

Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy See Terms.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Jeff, you can talk a little bit about how the podcast sort of unravels what happens to Marissa and Elise once their dad gets arrested for robbing banks.

[Toby Ball]

Well, I, you know, I think they, at least the way it's kind of portrayed is that they, they kind of go to the extremes of what they've been. So like Elise, who kind of has her act together, you know, goes to college and is successful and manages to succeed despite all the turmoil, whereas Marissa just starts parting her ass off. And then it goes from that to like actual addiction. She's living in the house, the house, but there's no power or water. She reunites with her mom, who encourages her in her drug use, and then encourages her into sex work to fund the drug use.

[Laura Bricker]

If you want to fix your money problem, I have a solution for you.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

If you want to make easy money,

[Laura Bricker]

then you have to sleep with these guys. She's like, it's the easiest way to make money quickly.

[Kevin Flynn]

This was apparently how her mother was getting by.

[Toby Ball]

She's kind of the tragic figure in all this is that without a responsible parent there being her father, there's no guide rails. Like, she just completely kind of falls apart and fortunately later beats her addiction and is in a better place now. But that's really gotta be Keith's. What really haunts him is what happened to her because Elise, you know, I'm sure had her own issues and stuff, but was able to make like a reasonable life for herself. So you don't get nearly as much of that as you do Marissa's sort of harrowing story.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, yeah. What do you think about those conversations, Lara? Because Jake is a skilled interviewer, I think, and he gets people to really open up. But the daughters, they have hard questions to reconcile with.

[Laura Bricker]

Right, right, right. And I think, you know, Jake is good at having the conversations when he's interviewing somebody feel organic. It feels like they, you know, he's not pressuring, he's empathetic. He kind of lets things unfold naturally as he's talking to people. And in this situation, you've got these, you know, the girl's kind of going through some pretty hard stuff. And I think that style of sitting back allows them to feel comfortable enough to share those details. As, you know, we're getting into, like, Toby was talking about the drug use and the sex work and the, you know, how they lived their lives all these years and how they were trying to make sense of, like, all those, like, where was our mother this whole time? And now we know Cause it was like that. That was so bizarre how she came to the window in the middle of the night for the vacuum cleaner. And like I said, the pace was definitely slow in the way, and I've said that, like, 10 times now. But because it's that. That type of story, and I think the style of questioning and the way that Jake approaches the interviews is more kind of a look at the cost of the crime to the family. And some of the interviews, I think, do go on a little bit longer and, you know, could have been edited down. But at the same time, I don't think that the, like, the stakes and, like, the emotional stakes of this story are necessarily the bank robberies. It's more about the two daughters and rebuilding their life and their identities after discovering that their father was basically leading a double life. And I think that that works well in this type of a story.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What do you think, Kevin? Do you think that Jake is the presence that this podcast needs?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I mean, I think he's very good throughout. He's not doing a lot of the performative stuff, and we do sort of hear, like, he's getting lost, you know, on the way to the house.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Why was he taping that? Why was he taping his driveway?

[Kevin Flynn]

Because you just never know when something crazy might happen.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You never know when you're gonna hit a coon in the road.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

I pull into this driveway, but, I

[Rebecca Lavoy]

mean, honestly, it just looks like a

[Toby Ball]

break in the trees, like a clearing,

[Laura Bricker]

nothing more, with a cabin at the edge of it.

[Toby Ball]

And then I see a shadowy figure

[Kevin Flynn]

emerge from the cabin, waving his hand. Keith. Holy cow, man.

[Toby Ball]

You guys live out here?

[Laura Bricker]

It sounded like the Unabomber cabin.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Was it? His wife is, like, following him on his little iPhone or whatever.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, people follow me all the time.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. But in a way, this is a very quiet podcast, because you're right. It's not a bank robbery procedural where the drama is based on the crime. It is the family drama here. And I think that's exactly where he always was going by the pacing and by the writing, which is good, even though I really like his writing. But sometimes it sort of reaches for a more literary or elevated tone. Well, sometimes it makes it. Sometimes it does.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I don't like that.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little purple. Okay. I'll grant you that. But I definitely see where he's, like, trying to focus our attention and what he's trying to say. The themes are more about family and fatherhood and is he a good father for Doing this. And is he not, you know, I mean, obviously not like, whether his heart was in the right place and he was just super misguided. I don't know. But the idea was that that was what the hook for the news story was like, oh, this guy was robbing banks to help his daughters. Right. Which is different, I guess. If you interviewed every bank robbery, why are you doing it?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

For the money.

[Kevin Flynn]

For the money? Yeah, for the money.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I want the money.

[Kevin Flynn]

I want the money.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

But he went on like, Good Morning America, right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah. And I don't think he did himself any favors there because this was the line that he said, why did you

[Laura Bricker]

feel the need to go this far to support them,

[Toby Ball]

basically, to afford them the lifestyle that they've always had, to send them to the school that I was sending them to so they could wear the clothes that they always wore,

[Kevin Flynn]

which makes them sound more like they were privileged as opposed to when he says, like, we were trying not to lose the house. That would have been the house that

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I was over leveraged on because of my choices.

[Kevin Flynn]

Right? Yeah. And it was gonna get foreclosed upon and you could just, you know, see the situation and so. And like, and they were young and so they didn't, like, come off, like, really great either. You know, he always thought people would be sympathetic because I'm doing this for my kids, which makes me a good guy and not a typical tweaker who's like, trying to hold up a bank so that I can score.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Isn't that some delusional, like, white privilege shit, though? Like, I am white. I'm suburban. I just want what you all want. I want an in ground pool, not an above ground pool like Toby. What do you think of that? What do you think of how he characterized it publicly and then the reaction to it?

[Toby Ball]

Well, I think when we started this conversation, I was like, it sounds like the setup for like some Showtime show or some HBO show. And I can see, like, Weeds is basically the same. Is a similar setup if you've watched Weeds. But it's essentially this woman's husband dies and she doesn't know what she's going to do to raise her kids, so she starts selling marijuana. And she's the sympathetic figure and she's a central figure and she's very likable and stuff. And I'm sure in his mind that was kind of. What was.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's Mary Louise Parker, right?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

West Wing poisoned me with her. Just FYI. It's not her fault. I don't know Worst character on West Wing, like by a lot.

[Toby Ball]

So sort of like Mary Louise Parker before she's on West Wing. And so, you know, I could see where he, he, where he thought and his, you know, he's like, well, I'm, I'm just like one of these people who are heroes in these, in these shows. But, but it's a show. Yeah, right. I mean, it's, you know, Ozark. The guys in Ozark would not be super sympathetic if they're on Good Morning America. Be like, no, you're a psychopath.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

What are you doing? You know, I wasn't surprised that the reaction was bad towards it, but I was, you know, upon reflection, I could think, well, I could see where he kind of talked himself into that being and also just the way he kind of addressed everything. Right. You know, he's just like sort of manifesting.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Right.

[Toby Ball]

And keeping positive thoughts and if I just tell them I was under a lot of pressure, I'm trying to raise two girls, what am I supposed to do?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Just manifest that.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah. Just so I manifested. Robbing banks.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's so white. Honestly. It is.

[Toby Ball]

So it's, it just seemed part and parcel with him, just like not quite having. Either not quite having a good grip on reality or in retrospect, making it seem that way so his choices seem more understandable and less bad faith or for motives other than this sort of. I want to help my kids.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Lara, if you were compartmentalizing and you were your regular self by day, investigator, podcaster, writer, all the things you do, what would be the crime that you are secretly committing on the side to make it all stick together? Oh, wow.

[Laura Bricker]

I don't think it would be bank robbery because I don't think I'd be able to do that. But what would my crime be? I think it's hard to compartmentalize. That's the whole thing here.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

It would have to be something like stealing something at night out of mailboxes that people didn't. Something. Yeah. That people wouldn't keep going, you know, that people wouldn't know you were doing at that time. I don't know. But I think that's the thing about this whole story. Like what I was thinking about is like this is like a story about this man who manages to compartmentalize. I am a dad by day and a bank robber by afternoon and I go rob a bank and then I go to my kids activities at the school. How did anybody like his family just was like, oh yeah, we noticed he had these like hundred dollar Bills. But it's like to be able to carry out a. I always talk about double lifes on here, but to carry out a double life like that. But in a family dynamic, you know, certain shows where you're. You have the. You know, the parents that are like spies or whatever and like, nobody knows. They just think, oh, mom and dad go off to the office every day. Yeah. But if anyone has ideas for what crimes I could commit, I, you know, I'd be glad to investigate that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It made me think of the movie say anything with Ione sky, who plays her father. He was a dad on Cheers.

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

John Maloney.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

John Malay. Maloney. Mulaney. John.

[Toby Ball]

Anyway, it's not John Mulaney.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, it's not John Mulaney.

[Kevin Flynn]

He.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Anyway, I'm a honey. Yeah, Mahoney. He owns a nursing home and he's embezzling and stealing money from the people in order to provide a good life for his daughter, so forth. And there's this great scene where she confronts him after she's questioned by the FBI, and he's like, I put food in their mouths. I kept them safe. And she was like, you stole from them. And it's a whole thing. And that's what this reminded me of. It was very reminiscent of that for me.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Well, allegedly. It's still the wrong thing.

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, yeah, it's still the wrong thing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Every. Everybody does the wrong thing for the right reason. Show me. So show me somebody. Who, if. Who do you want to characterize? Let's look at some more like, typical crimes we see on the news. People join gangs for a feeling of belonging and escape and, like, brotherhood. Right. Like people sell drugs for money. Like, everybody does the wrong thing for the right reason. Except for that guy who created that fucking fake software. That was the wrong thing for the wrong reason. Jesus.

[Kevin Flynn]

From last week you're talking about.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah. Side note, what was the ad in this that Malcolm Gladwell was reading where he said he didn't use the product? Oh, it was an Apple Apple card. He's like, I don't use that part. It was the High Yield savings account. He's like, I don't use that, but it sure sounds great.

[Toby Ball]

When you clock in with Ford Pro, we clock in with power. Business driven tech adaptability and service that comes to you when you're on.

[Kevin Flynn]

We're on.

[Toby Ball]

Ford Pro.

[Kevin Flynn]

Some flavors can only be crafted by nature. One sunny day, a honeybee discovered a mysterious apple blossom and carried its pollen to a honeycrisp Tree Months later, something extraordinary was born. The Sugar Bee Apple. With notes of honey, caramel and molasses, balanced by bright sweetness and an extra crisp crunch, Sugar Bee apples elevate everything from charcuterie boards and salads to baked treats and everyday snacking. Ready for some inspiration? Download our free recipe book and discover delicious ways to enjoy Sugar bee [e-mail] Sugar B apples from bee to you,

[Laura Bricker]

everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle Milk Muscle Milk has a great tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors or added colors. It's high quality complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 2642 grams of protein for when you're stuck in meetings or need a post workout recovery. Available in chocolate, vanilla, cream, cookies and cream, and strawberries and cream. Try the new great tasting Muscle Milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle Milk Protein for All hi, I'm

[Toby Ball]

Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter. Cats and cat owners deserve better than

[Kevin Flynn]

any old fashioned litter.

[Toby Ball]

That's why I teamed up with scientists

[Kevin Flynn]

and veterinarians to create Pretty Litter. Its innovative crystal formula has superior odor

[Toby Ball]

control and weighs up to 80% less than clay litter.

[Laura Bricker]

Just one bag lasts up to a month, meaning fewer refills and less scooping.

[Kevin Flynn]

Pretty Litter even monitors health by changing

[Laura Bricker]

colors to help detect early signs of potential illness.

[Toby Ball]

It's the world's smartest kitty litter.

[Laura Bricker]

Go to prettylitter.com and use code Pandora for 20% off your first order.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, let's do we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the podcast Deep Cover the Family man from Pushkin Lara Bricker. Thumbs up or thumbs down for Deep Cover the Family Man.

[Laura Bricker]

I'm gonna go mild thumbs up on this and I say that because the pacing for me was a little bit slow at times and you know, I had to kind of say, okay, this is not a quick moving true crime narrative that we're expecting. This is more of a family story. And this is a story I think that's really asking a question of family members of somebody that committed a crime of, you know, what is the sentence that children of offenders serve and how do they reconcile their life? And I don't think that's something we talk about as often when we review true crime stories as we should sometimes because it's like we talk, you know, there's obviously like the victims that you think of that are much more noticeable, but then there's the victims that Are the family members that are left to cope with what does love look like in a case where our family member has done something that is wrong and left us in a really bad situation, but they're still our family member? How do we address that? So I think this podcast does a good job with really getting into the nuance of that, but at times, I did struggle with the pacing when I got a little too into the weeds. But overall, I think, you know, this was kind of like blending. It was like a mashup of true crime and family memoir and, you know, looking at something later more as a reflection as opposed to a hoot. And I think, you know, there's a question of, like, does loving somebody mean defending what they did? Is that something totally separate? You know, I don't know, but I think the daughters in this are really the heart of the story, and, you know, they tell their stories, and I think that was. That was really interesting. So mild thumbs up, Toby Ball.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Thumbs up or thumbs down for deep cover. The family man.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I guess I'm a mild thumbs up. 2. I was somewhere in between mild thumbs up and thumbs sideways. I think there are parts of this that are pretty interesting. I think it's another one of those shows where I kind of felt like you got a lot from reading in between the lines of some of these interviews. The way different people characterize their actions or their relationships or their perceptions of things seemed like somewhat more insightful than the actual stories they were telling, which I thought I thought was pretty interesting. The story itself, you know, the actual crime part of the story, you know, whatever. It's like a moderately successful bank robber who eventually gets busted. I. I don't think that's a spoiler, but as Laura was saying, it's really about sort of the fallout for the family. It was kind of interesting. I mean, I could see. I could see the person who. When you're pitching this, it sounds like a great, like, sort of IP thing to make a TV show out of, was the way I was thinking about it. So, anyway, I like Jake. I. As a. As a narrator, as an interviewer, I think the writing sometimes doesn't quite work for me. It kind of is a little all over the place, because at times, like, he's trying to inhabit somebody's voice and be like. And they were like this, and then like this, and then like this, and then. And then a couple of senses later, it's like this, like, purple literary prose that doesn't quite work for me. But otherwise, you know, I think he does a good job. That all adds up to a mild thumbs up.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm also a mild thumbs up on this. I did like it. It, you know, was dark at times. It's not supposed to be a bank robbery procedural and a sort of how to on how bandit got away with robbing a dozen banks. It really is more a look at the human drama behind it, the fallout, which is something we don't usually look really deeply into. And that's sort of what all of these episodes are about. I. I thought Jake did a good job keeping his eye on the prize. That's what he wanted for this story to be about and not sort of about, like, whether or not, yeah, he's a mediocre bank robber. The hook was, I'm doing it for my kids. I think he could have pushed back a little bit in these interviews about how much of it really was for his kids. I mean, he's had like two decades to sort of rationalize it, and I would have liked him pulling a little more of that out of it. But it's at times a little slow and a little dry. But, you know, if you're sort of interested more in sort of what makes people tick and the effects, sometimes the tragic consequences of these kinds of decisions, it's a good look that way. So the pacing's different. I think there could have been some other places where we could have gone for better character development and enlightenment. But all in all, it was really well done. So I'm a mild thumbs up.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm a thumbs sideways on this. Only because you guys made it sound way better than I thought it was when I was listening to it. I really like Jake Halpern. We did another podcast that he hosted, at least one other one, and I remember liking him in that too. I am really confounded by the editorial choices that they make at Pushkin. We've had a several season podcast about Malibu. We have this show about sort of the family fallout of kind of like a mediocre crime in terms of, like, it's drama or it's, you know, impact and all that stuff. And, you know, we have it hinges on a guy saying, as you said, Kevin, I did it for my family. Well, who wouldn't say that about a crime they committed? Like, who wouldn't say that? Like, everybody would say that. I also found the podcast to be, dare I say, ponderous. It was quite slow. It didn't have the kind of writing and editing where I couldn't wait to listen to the next episode, which I think if you have a story like this that's not traditional, that doesn't have cliffhangers, that doesn't have hooks, that is like a little deeper, more personal story, which I don't dislike those kinds of stories. I think I clearly do. There should be a reason for me to really want to hit play on the next episode, and I didn't have that at all in this podcast. So I found myself wondering that what was the pitch? And as Toby said, was it sort of a means to an end to do something different with this project than what we got to have it be? A season of Blackbird or something like, who knows? But I didn't really love it. Like, it was fine. It sounded really good. Pushkin podcasts, for the most part, sound good. They're well produced, they're well edited. Jake is a good host. But why are we listening to this story, which, to me is less interesting than a similar story you could tell about a much more interesting set of people? And this isn't to, like, insult the personal stories of everyone in the world. All of their personal stories are interesting to some extent. But what is the larger takeaway here that I'm supposed to get? Oh, this guy got caught. And here's what happened. And it didn't say anything bigger about families, didn't say anything bigger about crime. It didn't say anything bigger about the criminal legal system. It was just a white guy who actually got a fairly light consequence for something that, you know, was a pretty bad crime. And of course, his daughters ended up paying the price. So, I don't know, I didn't love it. So I'm giving it a thumb sideways, and I was gonna be mild thumbs down, but I have to say, I got some redeeming qualities when I heard all of your reviews, especially Laura, who I think made it sound way better than I thought it was. And it left me wonder if I was missing something. So I can't say, don't listen to it. I'll say, give it a try. Hence my thumbs sideways. All right, now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little something I like to call the crime of the week. Move over, Travis and Taylor. Russia is celebrating its own celebrity wedding between two robots. At a ceremony in Moscow, the humanoid robots named Robert and Matilda exchanged vows generated by AI the groom wore a gray business suit and red tie. The bride had a ballerina's dress, white gloves, and a veil. The couple exchanged wedding bracelets, which were brought to them by Dogmatic, the robot dog but these nuptials are an arranged marriage, really. The event was the creation of a Russian robotics company that wants to demonstrate the many things humanoid automatons can do. Based on what we've seen on social media, robots seem to be good at falling down and accidentally kicking someone in the nuts when they're dancing. We don't know where Robert and Matilda spent their honeymoon, but hopefully it was someplace they could recharge and interface with one another. So, panel, young mechanical love is in the air. What do you give robots for a wedding gift, Laura Bricker?

[Laura Bricker]

How about an extended warranty and a can of WD40 for their honeymoon?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's not bad. What do you think, Toby Bricker?

[Toby Ball]

Jesus Christ.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Again? Again it happen.

[Toby Ball]

I didn't have the warranty. I just had the WD40.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh.

[Toby Ball]

What about you fondue set.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What do you think, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

His and her USB rechargeable ports with an extension cord. Extension cord and candlesticks make for a nice gift too.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, and a mute button for her because you know, girls, they yap.

[Kevin Flynn]

They yap.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, before we go, Laura Brick, I gotta ask you a question. Do we have a cat of the week this week?

[Laura Bricker]

We do. This is actually a sweet little dog and this is a few weeks past due, but I think of all the dogs on the Independence Day fourth of July fireworks, which were especially boisterous this year. Jennifer Little McCord sent a very sweet picture of her dog Maddie for Cat of the week. She is terrified of fireworks and is being a good sport about us. Trying dog noise cancellation headphones. Oh, you can see by her eyes how much she loves them.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. Psychoeyes. Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I love that. I love that. All right, Laura Bricker, folks want to reach out to you and share an image of their animal doing something wacky. Could be any kind of animal to be cat of the week. How can they find you online?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me Aarabricker on Instagram and bluesky.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Toby? How can you be found online so folks can see your Spanish adventures?

[Toby Ball]

Toby box call 603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm at Kevin Pflyn.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You can follow me everywhere, including on X Believe it or not. Reblavoy. Follow the show everywhere at Crimewriters on but mostly join our Facebook group. It's rad. Get episodes early and ad free and everything else we [e-mail] partnersincrime our theme song was composed and performed by Tyler Gibbons and our editor is the terrific Kevin Flynn. He's also Our ep, by the way, this show is recorded in Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also let our children think we're building swing sets while we're really off. Rodney Banks, on behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. Can I just reveal a secret to Lara and Toby that you often do on my notes? Kevin is a really good illustrator. If this thing you don't know about him. And he will often, like, draw a picture on my notes. And that is his like, little noir cartoon of, oh, Boonie Hat Bandit. Boonie Hat Bandit. But sometimes I'll come on here and he will have drawn something like really beautifully drawn, something like super inappropriate. Like, if we review, like, Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, like, I'll open this thing and there'll be like a surprise drawing of like, a clitoris or something. Like, that's the kind of stuff he does.

[Toby Ball]

That doesn't sound like Kevin at all.

[Kevin Flynn]

Come on now.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Like, I think, I think during the, the, the.

[Kevin Flynn]

The lack of proof, no evidence of that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You've. You've done some really inappropriate drawings when I've opened these things up. Yeah, I like some really dark reviews. All right.

[Laura Bricker]

Stick you on your toes, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Partners in crime media.

[Toby Ball]

When you clock in with Ford Pro, we clock in with power. Business driven tech adaptability and service that comes to you when you're on. We're on Ford Pro.