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[00:01]
Silk Protein Advertiser
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[00:28]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
[00:49]
Commercial Announcer
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[00:58]
Unidentified Commentator
To get the crime writers on after
[01:00]
Rebecca Lavoy
show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimeedia I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers On. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, you she was the daughter of an infamous serial killer. The woman teams up with a journalist to investigate what other crimes her father committed. We'll revisit our review of the classic true crime podcast the Clearing. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast. My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.
[01:46]
Kevin Flynn
Hello, Rebecca.
[01:47]
Rebecca Lavoy
So, Kevin, what are we listening to in today's CWO Classic Rewind.
[01:51]
Jonathan Manhevar
We're going back to our August 5, 2019 review of the Clearing from Pineapple Street Media and Gimlet with host Josh Dean.
[02:02]
Unidentified Commentator
Oh, wow.
[02:02]
Rebecca Lavoy
I can't wait to hear our conversation about this one.
[02:04]
Jonathan Manhevar
Yeah, and apologies again for my voice here. This was back in the day where, yeah, I had cancer. And so that's why don't listen and think Kevin had a cold. I'm fine in the end, but that's why things sound a little weird.
[02:17]
Rebecca Lavoy
All right, Kevin, should we give this one a listen?
[02:19]
Jonathan Manhevar
Yeah, let's do that.
[02:20]
Rebecca Lavoy
Pineapple Street Media has partnered with Gimlet on a new series The Clearing.
[02:25]
Unidentified Commentator
April Belacio has a lot of questions about her dad, Edward Wayne Edwards. Questions about who he was and what he did.
[02:31]
I had no tangible evidence that my dad killed anyone.
[02:36]
Questions she's hoping I can help her answer. Oh, they are labeled.
[02:40]
Yeah, they are labeled.
[02:41]
And Ed Edwards, he left behind a lot of clues, like a box of cassettes police confiscated from his trailer.
[02:47]
Ryan Reynolds
And how many cassettes are we looking at here?
[02:50]
Rebecca Lavoy
It's about 60, I believe. Feedback, feedback, feedback. Over his long life of crime, Edward Wayne Edwards admitted to killing five people. But there are those who think he's connected to a ton of unsolved murders, thanks to one man who's made that conspiracy his life's work. In the podcast, the Clearing, hosts Josh Dean and Edward's daughter April have teamed up to learn what other crimes he may have committed and which ones he most probably did not.
[03:24]
Unidentified Commentator
He always uses letters and numbers. The fifth letter Alphabet is E. So killing three on five five was something he had done in the past.
[03:32]
And who were these three other three
[03:33]
people, the West Memphis 3, 5, 5 and 93?
[03:38]
They were. But they were juveniles, right?
[03:41]
Ryan Reynolds
Yep.
[03:41]
Unidentified Commentator
There were three kids. But your father also killed three kids in 1955 in Chicago. Yeah. When? Before he came here. Yes, he did.
[03:54]
No, he didn't.
[03:55]
Rebecca Lavoy
My bullshit. Filled with tons of tape from police investigations, new interviews, and the audio diaries of Edwards himself. The Clearing looks to peel away the conspiracy theories and get to the heart of what this serial killer actually did, while also examining the underpinnings of the True Crime industrial complex. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from the Clearing, so if you want to remain spoiler free, you go to the time code listed in our show notes. Now, Kevin, I have to throw this your way.
[04:24]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[04:25]
Rebecca Lavoy
Josh Dini is the host of this podcast. He's a well known magazine writer, great features personality that I am familiar with and know and believe. I may have booked on some public radio interviews in my past life, but I actually learned about this podcast from a Facebook post from Jonathan Manhevar, who now works at Pineapple Street Media, is an alum of this American Life.
[04:48]
Kevin Flynn
Okay.
[04:49]
Rebecca Lavoy
I believe that this podcast, the Clearing, whatever we think of the story, the plot, what happens, I'm just gonna throw it out there. In terms of production and mixing and music and light motifs and themes, I think this is one of the most perfectly produced podcasts I've listened to in a very long time. What do you think?
[05:08]
Kevin Flynn
Well, I don't think I liked it as much as you did, but, I mean, it's very, very good. Yeah, but, I mean, I don't think it really takes off until episode four.
[05:21]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, what I'm talking about, though, is the production. So what I really. I think the argument I really want to make is the production style and the use in particular of sort of, like, leitmotifs and music in this podcast and sort of the way that Josh delivers it. Yes, it's very Leon Nayfak. It's very straight. But can I just play you a sample of, like, the musical light motifs?
[05:39]
Kevin Flynn
Please do.
[05:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Here's a clarinet for family.
[05:42]
Unidentified Commentator
When April was little, he supported the family by touring around telling his story of redemption to church groups and high schools and police academies. But she also knew he couldn't hold down a job.
[05:51]
Rebecca Lavoy
Here's electronica for story Boom.
[05:53]
Unidentified Commentator
The sheriff's clerk, Sharon, she handed us all these tapes, neatly packed in three white boxes. When she first heard from April a few months before our visit, Sharon was super curious to know what was on those tapes.
[06:05]
Rebecca Lavoy
So do you see there that they use, like, texture in this story in a way we don't often hear in these shows?
[06:09]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, it's not amateur hour. I get it. Yeah, it's very clever. It's an interesting concept because it really could. It's really different from any other. I mean, this is what Happy Face is not.
[06:23]
Silk Protein Advertiser
Yes.
[06:24]
Kevin Flynn
Right. It's introspective. Yeah. It's like, okay, this is what we're actually going to try to achieve by looking into this guy's past. And then it again, like I said, I think when we get to the end of episode four, well, even the start of episode four, I mean, it really. It really takes off.
[06:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yeah. So, Lara, I really want to talk about April because even though Josh tells us, really, in episode four, that he kind of thought this whole thing might be a magazine article, it's April that's kind of the driving force behind this. Kevin and I just sort of joked about this being the anti Happy face, but she is the daughter of the bad guy here. Can you just talk a little bit about what you think her role in this podcast is?
[07:05]
Laura Bricker
Well, I think that she's sort of the catalyst for this podcast, like you said, becoming more than just a magazine story. Because, you know, right from the first episode, when you hear how she always thought something was a little off about her childhood, and she's getting up in the middle of the night googling places that they lived because she felt like her father might be connected to crimes there, you immediately sense there's something a little bit different about her approach to what her father may or may not have done than other people that we've heard in the same situation. And also, you know, she, obviously, this is like, can you even imagine if this was somebody, you know, your father, that had been involved in these, these type of crimes? But she's. The way that she talks about it and the way that she is involved in the case and the way that she talks with Josh, she comes across as a very likable character. And. And so I think that this podcast really becomes more, you know. Yes, it's about. And every time I hear Eddie Edwards, I keep thinking of our old liquor commissioner. Every time I hear this, I'm like, it's not that Eddie Edwards. So, you know, this podcast really becomes, yes, it's about him, but it's really her journey and her desire to find the truth. And she's not saying he didn't do these things, but she's also saying, you know, he may or may not have done all these things that this other wingnut guy sort of throws out there to see what will stick.
[08:34]
Rebecca Lavoy
I just want to follow up up with you on that, Lara, because I found myself asking this question, like, April fully knows her father is a serial killer. She knows it, and she turned him in. Like, she fucking knows it. Yes, she knows he's a bad guy. She's also not comfortable with him being portrayed as a worse guy than he was. Although she's saying, like, show me the evidence and I'm fine with it. But, like, if it's not true, don't say it. I find that fascinating. Like, she's not defending him. No, she's like, just let him be the bad guy he is and don't make him worse, but also don't make him better. Like, let the facts. It's fascinating. What is this, like, her psychological journey? Like, what do you think that's about?
[09:17]
Laura Bricker
Well, I think that's it. And the thing is, when you listen to her talk about him, I mean, you expect to hear somebody who is completely overwhelmed and traumatized by the fact that this is their father. And that's not how she presents. She's just kind of matter of fact about it, but also, yeah, she's. She's suitably horrified, but she's not crippled by that knowledge. She's actually seems almost empowered to find out the truth, which is what makes it so compelling to listen to her, I think. So I don't know what it is about her makeup. Maybe it's because she had to become adaptable as a child. As she's moving every five minutes, every time he's like, let's go. It's three in the morning. We're getting out of here. Who knows what went into that, you know, in terms of making her that type of person, but it's. It's fascinating to listen to now.
[10:02]
Rebecca Lavoy
Toby, you sent me a note. Your first note you sent me in your list was, you don't find the podcast super interesting. I want to give you a chance because I have obviously, like, completely latched onto that fact that this is interesting. I'd like to hear your counterpoint on why you don't love this as much as I do. I'm just going to give you the floor. Go ahead, Toby Ball.
[10:21]
Toby Ball
It's kind of interesting to try and explain why something isn't interesting. I guess my feeling is that a lot of the arc is not all that unexpected once you kind of hear what his kind of intentions are. There's little anecdotes that I thought were interesting, but.
[10:42]
Rebecca Lavoy
Kentucky Fried Chicken? Is that what you're talking about? You're talking about the Kentucky Fried Chicken?
[10:45]
Toby Ball
The Kentucky Fried Chicken thing was amusing.
[10:49]
Unidentified Commentator
So, you know, he makes comments throughout the whole dinner. Oh, this is good. Kentucky Fried Chicken. Oh, these biscuits are just like Kentucky Fried Chicken. And I'm kicking my husband on the table.
[10:59]
Rebecca Lavoy
Just. Would you just shut up?
[11:00]
Unidentified Commentator
Just let it go. Who cares? Just eat. It's good.
[11:03]
Then after a while of dropping hints, I'll just come right out and say, you know, you're an idiot. I see this stuff right there in the kitchen. But even in that situation, he would continue to. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
[11:15]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[11:15]
Unidentified Commentator
That he 100% made the dinner just for no reason.
[11:18]
Toby Ball
The thing where he shows up pretending he's a cop and talks to the neighbor is super creepy.
[11:25]
Silk Protein Advertiser
Couple days later, my mom, it hits her.
[11:29]
Rebecca Lavoy
Oh, that was Edwards.
[11:34]
Unidentified Commentator
Just to be clear, the cop with a mustache. That was Ed Edwards trying to picture. I mean, because he had sunglasses and a hat, he had disguised himself pretty well.
[11:45]
Rebecca Lavoy
Oh, he hadn't. It was a fake mustache.
[11:48]
Laura Bricker
It was a bad fake mustache.
[11:50]
Toby Ball
And the fact that he was on what's My Line? Or whatever, the.
[11:54]
Unidentified Commentator
Whatever.
[11:54]
Kevin Flynn
That's Tell the Truth.
[11:56]
Toby Ball
By a variety of logics, we have arrived at the following conclusion. A pair of twos on each end.
[12:02]
Unidentified Commentator
The votes are all in.
[12:03]
Toby Ball
Will the real Ed Edwards please stand up?
[12:05]
Unidentified Commentator
Numbers one and two, both fake, like they're about to rise. And then actual Edwards stands with the wide smile of a man who's just conned everyone into believing he's actually reformed.
[12:15]
Toby Ball
It's kind of good. But, you know, the arc did not, to me, seem to be particularly surprising or unusual beyond, like, these little anecdotes. I don't know, I just kind of felt like we spent a lot of time listening to him talk, listening to other people talk without a whole hell of a lot going on, except for an occasional little anecdote that seemed a little unusual. But once you realize that what he really wants to do is he wants to be executed, and then there's a lot of time spent about the ins and outs of what he's gonna have to do to get transferred to Ohio so he can get executed there, and the disappointments. And I don't know, I just kind of felt I had a hard time connecting with it. And then again, until, like Kevin said, I thought the fourth episode sort of really changed it quite a bit. But, you know, at that point, you're like two hours in or more like, again, I mean, it's not. It's not like it's bad. The idea that there's this treasure trove of audio, like, this guy was such a narcissist that he felt like he better record all his thoughts all the time, and then you have access to that, and the guy's also deranged. That's like a treasure trove of stuff. But the reality is that what he's talking about isn't super interesting. You try to think like, well, what if this guy wasn't? What if we didn't think he was a serial killer? Is any of this stuff then become interesting? And I felt like a lot of it was only interesting because you thought you were getting some kind of insight into this sort of terrifying person. I don't know. I didn't find that particularly compelling. The fourth episode, I thought, was really interesting.
[13:57]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, let's talk a little bit about that fourth episode. But before we do, Kevin, can I just, like, make a counterpoint to what Toby said? And you can disagree with me if you want. All right, so we hear about sort of the tape and, you know, Eddie Edwards, Edward Edwards, which I know he changed his name and that was not his name, but my first question for someone named Edward Edwards is like, why do your parents hate you so much? Anyway, one of the things that stuck out to me that I loved was when April took the podcast producers to explore one of her memories, and she had this memory of her father, like, taking this very specific place, his very specific park, taking her to see A crime scene. And she's like, just. And they were very doubtful. They get there and they find the place, and it's actually where those victims were found. And it really was a crime scene. And it very much seems to me like those setup episodes, which I don't think you loved either, and which Toby clearly didn't love before episode four, were about testing April's veracity so that we could trust that they've brought her into this. And I know it took a kind of a long time to get there. I thought it was really good, and it built a lot for me of investment in. Unlike Happy Face, where it was just like a fever dream. It built a lot for me of, like, it was a slow build, but I know I'm impatient and I always say, like, slow builds are a barrier. Why did I like it so much and you guys didn't?
[15:22]
Laura Bricker
I really liked it too, Rebecca, so.
[15:24]
Rebecca Lavoy
Okay, I'm glad. So it wasn't just me.
[15:26]
Laura Bricker
No, I really liked it and I really liked the music that they used. And the music was even kind of quirky to me. Some of the music that, like, it was like. Like kind of lighter sounding music than you would. And I was like, huh, this is an interesting music choice. And I loved it. Some of the little quips that Josh threw in where I was like, huh, that's kind of funny. I bet he's got a good sense of humor in person.
[15:50]
Unidentified Commentator
The limitations of a podcast prevent me from showing you this video. You can find it yourself on YouTube if you really want, but let me save you the time. This random Santa, I'm not sure who he is, but he's not Edwards.
[16:03]
Kevin Flynn
I do really like Josh. Yeah, I think he is a great storyteller. You definitely can tell from his writing. While he's not a broadcast journalist, he's good with words. He also knows how to take his script and make it sound like he's talking slightly extemporaneously. So it's good in that way, like. Like a Sarah Koenig. Like a Leon Nayfak. You know, there are some, you know, folks that are just sort of like, spinning a tail. Not in a fantabulous way. No, right. Not in a fantastic way, but sort of like just really connecting with you and talking sort of generally about. Yeah, this is what we found, you know, not reading a report, but sort of reporting back to you.
[16:46]
Rebecca Lavoy
Now let's talk about episode four, where it took a big turn for you. I know, because I think I walked in on you listening and you said, I've just changed my mind about this whole thing. John Cameron, who is the guy that we hear has been propagating this story, like we saw the news reports post making a murderer thing like that's Edward Edwards in the footage. Really the one who killed Theresa hall back and he really killed JonBenet Ramsey and he's also the Zodiac. One guy is responsible for this. John Cameron. Our introduction to him is that Josh Dean goes to interview him and he's
[17:21]
Kevin Flynn
in the hospital on morphine with a puncture.
[17:24]
Rebecca Lavoy
On morphine because he says he had a drunken fall. What a way to introduce an unreliable source, right?
[17:34]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, but his unreliability is the reason he's a character in this at all, you know, at all. They're not going to go find like, oh, here's the chief inspector of the case. They're really there to talk to the guy who has created this fable that he deeply believes in. He's, you know, white whale and Ahab
[17:52]
Rebecca Lavoy
for the True Crime industrial complex.
[17:54]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, well, or I mean, not even that. I mean just it's so far out that like you said that the radio host for coast to Coast.
[18:02]
Laura Bricker
Oh my God, I have to talk about that.
[18:05]
Kevin Flynn
Was even he who was tongue tied.
[18:09]
Unidentified Commentator
There's another moment on coast to coast when Cameron spins the story so wild that when he's finished, the host just pauses for an uncomfortably long time.
[18:21]
Toby Ball
You research these kind of cases, you see all of these stories. Do you ever think that the obsession of tracking this kind of story, I
[18:30]
Laura Bricker
have to tell you, coast to coast has a special place in my home. My Uncle Wal, Uncle Walter, who comes to stay with us every Christmas for an extended visit. He has insomnia and his favorite thing to do at night, he has finally fessed up, is listen to coast to Coast. So for his birthday this year, I got him a six month subscription to the podcast. So he didn't have to stay up till one in the morning to listen to it.
[18:58]
Rebecca Lavoy
Nice. Very nice.
[19:00]
Kevin Flynn
You're sweet.
[19:01]
Laura Bricker
So I was so excited when I heard this. I'm like, oh, this is great. I can't wait to tell Uncle Wall about this.
[19:06]
Kevin Flynn
Now.
[19:06]
Rebecca Lavoy
Toby, I kept thinking about you listening to episode four because I felt like April, who by the way, as we mentioned, is the daughter of the serial killer Edward Edwards, is playing you in this podcast when she's listening to John Cameron's claims on the Today show.
[19:24]
Unidentified Commentator
Edwards ties a lot of his murders to 666.
[19:27]
Okay, that's just absolutely ludicrous to me. That is just totally ludicrous it's crazy.
[19:33]
Rebecca Lavoy
Have no idea how he came up
[19:36]
Unidentified Commentator
with that idea, but that's where the evidence led.
[19:38]
What evidence? Seriously, what evidence? And he's not really.
[19:44]
Lacy was killed on Christmas Eve. Her body was found on Palm Sunday. He stages his murders on Christian holidays.
[19:53]
No, he doesn't.
[19:54]
Fourth of July, Memorial Days.
[19:56]
No, he doesn't.
[19:56]
Anything that's a significant day in history.
[19:58]
Rebecca Lavoy
You also suggest he may be responsible for this.
[20:01]
Unidentified Commentator
Yeah, so.
[20:01]
Laura Bricker
And then.
[20:01]
Unidentified Commentator
All right, now, the ones that he confessed to, were any of those on any holidays?
[20:06]
Commercial Announcer
No. No.
[20:08]
Rebecca Lavoy
So, Toby, do you think that April is the Toby Ball of this podcast?
[20:11]
Toby Ball
Geez, yeah. I hope so. No, I mean, again, this is where I thought the podcast kind of suddenly got interesting, where you've got this woman who grew up with this monster as a father, and she knows he did terrible things, and then she has to deal with this guy who's like, he was the Zodiac Killer and he killed this person. Have you ever heard of a private. Do you think your dad ever chartered jets? It's like, what, you think he charted a jet so he could fly to denver and kill JonBenet Ramsey and then get back? I mean, what the hell are you talking about? That was interesting. It was interesting to have that dynamic set up. And that guy is just so full of shit. It's unbelievable. When you were talking earlier about the Remnant, and you talked about how you thought it was clever framing to start off with the bomb and then sort of move on from there to sort of the meat of what they're going to talk about, I almost think that maybe they could have started with something like this. It might have caught my interest a little bit more. And I hate that idea of criticizing something because they didn't make it the way you wanted them to make it. You got to kind of take it on its own merits. I don't know. I guess I'll save it for the recommendations, but I think if you can hang in there to get to the fourth one, there's a good payoff.
[21:44]
Rebecca Lavoy
Now, Lara, at the end of the fourth episode, this is why I put the extra spoiler alert in our spoiler alerts. There's a bit of a kicker, because the podcast tells us, first we're gonna look at what this guy did, and then we're gonna look at the larger thing. And it does take three episodes to get to the larger thing. But then at the end of the fourth episode, maybe he actually did do something that John Cameron thinks he may have done, and they're gonna like now maybe solve that. What did you think of that?
[22:13]
Laura Bricker
I don't even know. I will reserve judgment until I hear what they have to say. Because, you know, I guess it is probable when you hear this guy, I mean, he wrote a book about his crimes, he wants a lot of attention about his crimes. He's pretty narcissistic. And then when you hear kind of details of things that he's done and the fact that they were moving all the time, it is plausible to think that maybe there are other things that he was involved in or. I gonna go on a limb here. I don't think it's JonBenet, but I don't think it's Theresa Halbach. But it is gonna be interesting to hear where they go next with this.
[22:51]
Rebecca Lavoy
Do you think he's the Zodiac?
[22:53]
Laura Bricker
No, but am I gonna eat my words? I don't know. I mean, who knows? But I won't be surprised if he's linked to more crimes.
[23:04]
Kevin Flynn
Well, I mean I think every they have handled this podcast so well to start. I can't imagine this is a fake out. Or it's worse like what happens with happened with cereal where they have these great cliffhangers and never fulfill them. So my interest is now piqued as to what they might actually find out.
[23:31]
Commercial Announcer
Stuart Fails to Save the Universe is about Stuart Bloom who ran the comic book shop on the Big Bang Theory and now has to restore reality after he accidentally causes a multiverse Armageddon. On the Stewart Fails to Save the Universe podcast. Hear from the creators, cast and crew as they unpack each episode after it airs on HBO Max. Watch the Stewart Fails to Save the Universe official podcast on HBO Max, YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
[23:59]
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[24:25]
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[24:45]
Rebecca Lavoy
So Kevin who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast.
[24:47]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh, our sponsor is Quince.
[24:50]
Rebecca Lavoy
Kevin. I'm wearing a Quint's dress right now.
[24:51]
Jonathan Manhevar
I know. Hold on Nana. Don't get ahead of ourselves. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on record. Pete. Comfortable, versatile and somehow right for almost every occasion. And Quint makes it easy to create a summer wardrobe that you'll love with
[25:06]
Rebecca Lavoy
things like what is this incredible linen wrap dress? I wear this dress all the time. This button down like camp dress. I love it.
[25:12]
Jonathan Manhevar
They've got such amazing European linen products shirts that I have. It's great for the summertime.
[25:19]
Rebecca Lavoy
You look pants I just ordered.
[25:20]
Jonathan Manhevar
Very comfortable yet elegated.
[25:22]
Kevin Flynn
Wait, wait wait. I mean elevated.
[25:23]
Jonathan Manhevar
Elevated.
[25:24]
Kevin Flynn
But we don't know.
[25:25]
Jonathan Manhevar
You just ordered more stuff from Quinn.
[25:26]
Rebecca Lavoy
Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.
[25:28]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh, that's.
[25:30]
Rebecca Lavoy
I was European linen pants. I had to try them cuz they're a new style.
[25:33]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh man.
[25:34]
Kevin Flynn
Oh man.
[25:35]
Laura Bricker
Sorry.
[25:35]
Jonathan Manhevar
No, it's okay, it's okay. At this point though, Quince, please you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think there at Quince.
[25:52]
Rebecca Lavoy
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[26:15]
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[26:46]
Rebecca Lavoy
I think we should do what we do and tell our listeners should they check out the Clearing. It's a podcast from Pineapple Street Media. I think the partnership with Gimlet that's just who's distributing it and doing the marketing for them. I'm not sure but anyway it's the Pineapple street people have made this podcast the Clearing with Josh Dean. Thumbs up or thumbs down review. What do you think Laura Bricker? What should our audience take Away. Thumbs up or thumbs down?
[27:10]
Laura Bricker
I'm going with thumbs up. I really liked this podcast. I liked the narrator style. I liked, you know, his manner of delivery and his. His writing. And I loved April, the daughter of the killer. And I also really liked the quirky music that they used and the production quality of this podcast. So I really like this. It was really interesting to listen to. There's also, you know, you've got tapes, we've got access to the killer himself. That's always fun. So I would say thumbs up, Toby Ball.
[27:39]
Rebecca Lavoy
I can't wait to hear what you think. Thumbs up or thumbs down from the clearing. Where do you finally land, Toby Ball?
[27:46]
Toby Ball
I guess I'll give it a thumbs up. You know, the writing's good. You know, everything basically about it is good. Other than the first three episodes, I don't even know if it's slow going, but it's just. I didn't find it super interesting. And then suddenly the fourth episode comes, and I was like, oh, well, that's a whole different deal. And I should also say that I think that other people will like it more than I did. I'm just not that interested in, like, the whole serial killer genre. If people are interested in it, there's probably a lot there for them. And then again, you get to the fourth, and it suddenly springs to life, like Kevin said. So I'll give it a thumbs up, but it's kind of a. It's kind of a qualified one.
[28:27]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yeah, I'm giving it a huge thumbs up. And I just want to say for everybody out there who disagreed, when we said that happy face was. What'd you say, Kevin? Fucking hot mess of a podcast.
[28:40]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[28:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
I think this is everything for me that that podcast wasn't and everything for me that the podcast. What was the other one with the kids in the van and the art. Broken hearts like this is. It could be so voyeuristic. We have the daughter of a serial killer working with a reporter to flesh out a story. It could be a disaster. And it is the opposite of a disaster for me. It's funny all the complaints that you and Toby have, Kevin, about sort of like the restraint of the first three episodes and the sort of, like, the things it does to me, those are the things that make the fourth episode work. Because if we started there, I would be calling bullshit, just like April does in that episode. But the integrity of the first three build the foundation for me, upon which now I am willing to go to whatever crazy place this podcast goes, because I have so much trust in what they're doing. I am in love with the clearing. I think it's one of the best things I've listened to in a very long time. I very often say on this show that, like, I only listen to what I have to listen to, review to review it, and then I'll never talk about it again. Like, I am going to be listening to this podcast every week until it's over. I love it. It's going to be first on my playlist. Kevin, what about you? Thumbs up or thumbs down for the clearing?
[29:58]
Kevin Flynn
I'm a thumbs up. Like, I said that it was a really good podcast. And then you get to episode four, and all of a sudden, I mean, it's a fantastic episode. I can only hope that it means that it's taking the podcast in a great way. I will. Can I tell you, though, what the thing I really hate about the podcast is? The name.
[30:17]
Rebecca Lavoy
The clearing.
[30:18]
Kevin Flynn
The clearing. What does it mean is this is we're going to be clearing somebody. So this is the clearing of them. No, it's not about a clearing in the woods. Right.
[30:26]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, the place was found.
[30:27]
Laura Bricker
That's clearing where they went, where the pond was. Right.
[30:29]
Rebecca Lavoy
That's her memory, that clearing, I kind of think.
[30:33]
Kevin Flynn
See, because I think the place is like, we're clearing.
[30:35]
Rebecca Lavoy
No, it's the place. Because, remember, the place of her, of
[30:39]
Kevin Flynn
her childhood was a clearing.
[30:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yes.
[30:45]
Jonathan Manhevar
Okay, Rebecca, so I gotta ask, do
[30:46]
Kevin Flynn
you still love, love this podcast?
[30:48]
Rebecca Lavoy
I still really love this podcast. I really love it. If I remember correctly, Jonathan Manhevar was one of the producers of the podcast. It had a really singular soundtrack. The scoring was a lot of clarinet, kind of jaunty, kind of interesting. And I still, to this day. Sorry, Josh, if you're listening, I think it's the best podcast Josh Dean has ever made. I think this podcast is interesting. I think it's. I think it ends up being about something completely different than it starts being about. And, yeah, for me, it really holds up. What about you?
[31:16]
Jonathan Manhevar
You don't have to apologize to Josh for saying it's the best one. It isn't like saying this was the worst one and we shit all over it, so.
[31:23]
Kevin Flynn
That's true.
[31:23]
Rebecca Lavoy
He's fine.
[31:24]
Jonathan Manhevar
Anyway, yeah, we'll get to other things this summer that we can shit over.
[31:28]
Rebecca Lavoy
All right, so this show was recorded in the Kaitlin Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also shit talk the Today show in real time. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.
[31:59]
Commercial Announcer
Partners in Crime Media
[32:03]
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Summary6 min read

Crime Writers On... – "The Clearing" Rewind

Episode Date: July 30, 2026
Podcast: Crime Writers On…
Reviewed Podcast: The Clearing (Pineapple Street Media & Gimlet, hosted by Josh Dean)

Episode Overview

In this "CWO Classic Rewind," hosts Rebecca Lavoie, Kevin Flynn, Lara Bricker, and Toby Ball revisit their original review of the acclaimed true crime podcast The Clearing. The episode centers on the investigation by April Balascio, daughter of confirmed serial killer Edward Wayne Edwards, as she teams up with journalist Josh Dean to explore both confirmed and suspected crimes attributed to her father. The panel discusses podcast production, storytelling, and how The Clearing distinguishes itself within the true crime genre—especially compared to other true-crime-involving-family podcasts. The conversation explores themes of memory, veracity, the burden of legacy, and skepticism about conspiracy theories.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast Structure and Production Quality

Rebecca lauds The Clearing's outstanding production values, especially the evocative use of leitmotifs and music to delineate narrative themes (e.g., the "clarinet for family" and "electronica for story").
- Quote: "[B]etween the production and mixing and music and light motifs and themes, I think this is one of the most perfectly produced podcasts I've listened to in a very long time." (Rebecca, 04:49)
Kevin agrees on the technical merits, noting, “It’s not amateur hour. I get it. It's very clever.” (Kevin, 06:09)
The style is compared positively with other narrative true crime podcasts (references to Leon Neyfakh, Sarah Koenig).
- Quote: "He also knows how to take his script and make it sound like he's talking slightly extemporaneously." (Kevin, 16:03)

2. April Balascio’s Role and Perspective

April, as the daughter of a serial killer, is at the emotional and narrative core of the show. Her approach is portrayed as pragmatic, direct, and self-aware.
- Lara: “She comes across as a very likable character.... She’s not saying he didn’t do these things, but she’s also saying, you know, he may or may not have done all these things that this other wingnut guy sort of throws out there to see what will stick." (07:05)
Rebecca highlights April's moral stance: she wants the truth—neither excusing nor exaggerating her father’s crimes.
- Quote: "She's also not comfortable with him being portrayed as a worse guy than he was. Although she's saying, like, show me the evidence and I'm fine with it. But, like, if it's not true, don't say it." (Rebecca, 08:33)
Lara explores how April's adaptability may stem from her chaotic childhood: "[S]he’s suitably horrified but she’s not crippled by that knowledge. She actually seems almost empowered to find out the truth..." (09:17)

3. Narrative Arc and Engagement

Toby expresses that the initial episodes feel slow and a bit unengaging, lacking narrative surprise, but acknowledges the quality of writing and the unique inclusion of extensive audio from Edwards.
- Quote: "There's little anecdotes that I thought were interesting," but "the arc did not, to me, seem to be particularly surprising..." (10:21)
There’s consensus that episode four marks a major turning point—the introduction of conspiracy theorist John Cameron ups the dramatic stakes and draws the hosts in.
- Kevin: “It really takes off” at episode four. (06:40, also echoed at 29:58)

Memorable Anecdotes:

Kentucky Fried Chicken dinnertime story and bizarre neighbor-cop interaction highlight Edward’s peculiar and narcissistic behaviors. (10:45–11:24)
Edwards' appearance on "To Tell the Truth" as a supposedly "reformed" convict adds to the portrait of his manipulative persona. (11:54–12:14)

4. Handling of Conspiracy Theories

Episode Four introduces John Cameron, a retired cop convinced Edwards is the culprit behind multiple famous murders (e.g., Zodiac, JonBenét Ramsey, Theresa Halbach).
- Rebecca: “Our introduction to him is that Josh Dean goes to interview him and he's in the hospital on morphine with a puncture... What a way to introduce an unreliable source, right?” (17:23)
- Laura: Shares a personal anecdote about "Coast to Coast", underscoring the wildness of Cameron’s claims. (18:30)
April’s Skepticism: She’s presented as the voice of reason, directly calling out the unsupported leaps in Cameron’s theories.
- Quote: "That's just absolutely ludicrous to me. That is just totally ludicrous—it's crazy." (April, 19:26)
Toby: Appreciates this dynamic: “It was interesting to have that dynamic set up. And that guy is just so full of shit. It's unbelievable...” (20:11)

5. Critique of True Crime Media Ecology

The hosts note that The Clearing challenges "the True Crime industrial complex," by interrogating not just the life of a serial killer but also the industry's tendency toward myth-making and narrative inflation.

6. Slow Burn and Pacing Opinions

The panel is split:
- Rebecca and Lara appreciate the “slow build” and foundation of credibility established.
- Toby finds the first three episodes lacking momentum but sees the rationale for their inclusion in building narrative trust.
- Quote: "Those are the things that make the fourth episode work. Because if we started there, I would be calling bullshit, just like April does..." (Rebecca, 28:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Rebecca (on April): "Let him be the bad guy he is and don't make him worse, but also don't make him better. Let the facts... It's fascinating." (08:33)
Toby (on Conspiracy Theories): "Do you think he chartered a jet so he could fly to Denver and kill JonBenet Ramsey and then get back? I mean, what the hell are you talking about? That was interesting." (20:11)
Lara (on April's Mindset): "...she's suitably horrified, but she's not crippled by that knowledge. She actually seems almost empowered to find out the truth, which is what makes it so compelling to listen to her, I think." (09:17)
Kevin (on Host Josh Dean): "He’s a great storyteller...good with words...he also knows how to take his script and make it sound like he’s talking slightly extemporaneously." (16:03)

Timestamps for Important Segments

[04:49] Rebecca on the production style and musical leitmotifs
[07:05] Lara discusses April's central role
[08:33] Rebecca and Lara analyze April’s unique approach to her father’s legacy
[10:21] Toby critiques the podcast’s early pacing and surprise factor
[11:54] “To Tell The Truth” anecdote featuring Ed Edwards
[16:03] Kevin on Josh Dean’s narrative style
[17:23] Introduction of John Cameron and the conspiracy theory turn
[19:26] April (and the panel) respond to conspiracy claims
[22:13] Lara forecasts where the podcast might go next
[27:10] Final verdicts: thumbs up/thumbs down reviews

Final Verdicts

Thumbs Up or Down

Lara: Thumbs up. Praises narrator, daughter’s perspective, music, production, and access to killer’s tapes.
Toby: Qualified thumbs up. Strong final episodes but finds the genre and early pace less compelling personally.
Rebecca: Huge thumbs up. Believes it transcends potential voyeurism and lauds its credibility, pacing, and emotional depth.
Kevin: Thumbs up. Good throughout, fantastic from episode four onward. Only criticism is the podcast title’s ambiguity.

Closing Thoughts

The panel widely agrees that The Clearing stands out from other "killer’s child investigates" podcasts by avoiding melodrama, focusing on veracity, and delivering high production value.
Some acknowledge its slow early pacing might deter some listeners, but most feel the late payoff is worth it.
Rebecca concludes, “I am in love with The Clearing. I think it’s one of the best things I’ve listened to in a long time.” (29:22)

Summary Table: Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down

| Host | Verdict | Key Points | |----------|--------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Lara | Thumbs up | Compelling central subject, production, access to killer’s tapes | | Toby | Thumbs up (*)| Qualified: slow early, great payoff, not usually drawn to serial killer genre | | Rebecca | Huge thumbs up| Pacing, credibility, profound & not voyeuristic, foundation for trust | | Kevin | Thumbs up | Good throughout, fantastic episode four, dislikes ambiguous title |

For listeners exploring true crime through the lens of family trauma, journalistic rigor, and the mythic dimensions of infamy, The Clearing receives a strong endorsement from the Crime Writers On team—especially for those patient enough to reach the podcast's revelatory mid-point.

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Transcript167 lines

[00:01]
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[00:28]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile now. I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
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[00:58]
Unidentified Commentator
To get the crime writers on after
[01:00]
Rebecca Lavoy
show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimeedia I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers On. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, you she was the daughter of an infamous serial killer. The woman teams up with a journalist to investigate what other crimes her father committed. We'll revisit our review of the classic true crime podcast the Clearing. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast. My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.
[01:46]
Kevin Flynn
Hello, Rebecca.
[01:47]
Rebecca Lavoy
So, Kevin, what are we listening to in today's CWO Classic Rewind.
[01:51]
Jonathan Manhevar
We're going back to our August 5, 2019 review of the Clearing from Pineapple Street Media and Gimlet with host Josh Dean.
[02:02]
Unidentified Commentator
Oh, wow.
[02:02]
Rebecca Lavoy
I can't wait to hear our conversation about this one.
[02:04]
Jonathan Manhevar
Yeah, and apologies again for my voice here. This was back in the day where, yeah, I had cancer. And so that's why don't listen and think Kevin had a cold. I'm fine in the end, but that's why things sound a little weird.
[02:17]
Rebecca Lavoy
All right, Kevin, should we give this one a listen?
[02:19]
Jonathan Manhevar
Yeah, let's do that.
[02:20]
Rebecca Lavoy
Pineapple Street Media has partnered with Gimlet on a new series The Clearing.
[02:25]
Unidentified Commentator
April Belacio has a lot of questions about her dad, Edward Wayne Edwards. Questions about who he was and what he did.
[02:31]
I had no tangible evidence that my dad killed anyone.
[02:36]
Questions she's hoping I can help her answer. Oh, they are labeled.
[02:40]
Yeah, they are labeled.
[02:41]
And Ed Edwards, he left behind a lot of clues, like a box of cassettes police confiscated from his trailer.
[02:47]
Ryan Reynolds
And how many cassettes are we looking at here?
[02:50]
Rebecca Lavoy
It's about 60, I believe. Feedback, feedback, feedback. Over his long life of crime, Edward Wayne Edwards admitted to killing five people. But there are those who think he's connected to a ton of unsolved murders, thanks to one man who's made that conspiracy his life's work. In the podcast, the Clearing, hosts Josh Dean and Edward's daughter April have teamed up to learn what other crimes he may have committed and which ones he most probably did not.
[03:24]
Unidentified Commentator
He always uses letters and numbers. The fifth letter Alphabet is E. So killing three on five five was something he had done in the past.
[03:32]
And who were these three other three
[03:33]
people, the West Memphis 3, 5, 5 and 93?
[03:38]
They were. But they were juveniles, right?
[03:41]
Ryan Reynolds
Yep.
[03:41]
Unidentified Commentator
There were three kids. But your father also killed three kids in 1955 in Chicago. Yeah. When? Before he came here. Yes, he did.
[03:54]
No, he didn't.
[03:55]
Rebecca Lavoy
My bullshit. Filled with tons of tape from police investigations, new interviews, and the audio diaries of Edwards himself. The Clearing looks to peel away the conspiracy theories and get to the heart of what this serial killer actually did, while also examining the underpinnings of the True Crime industrial complex. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from the Clearing, so if you want to remain spoiler free, you go to the time code listed in our show notes. Now, Kevin, I have to throw this your way.
[04:24]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[04:25]
Rebecca Lavoy
Josh Dini is the host of this podcast. He's a well known magazine writer, great features personality that I am familiar with and know and believe. I may have booked on some public radio interviews in my past life, but I actually learned about this podcast from a Facebook post from Jonathan Manhevar, who now works at Pineapple Street Media, is an alum of this American Life.
[04:48]
Kevin Flynn
Okay.
[04:49]
Rebecca Lavoy
I believe that this podcast, the Clearing, whatever we think of the story, the plot, what happens, I'm just gonna throw it out there. In terms of production and mixing and music and light motifs and themes, I think this is one of the most perfectly produced podcasts I've listened to in a very long time. What do you think?
[05:08]
Kevin Flynn
Well, I don't think I liked it as much as you did, but, I mean, it's very, very good. Yeah, but, I mean, I don't think it really takes off until episode four.
[05:21]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, what I'm talking about, though, is the production. So what I really. I think the argument I really want to make is the production style and the use in particular of sort of, like, leitmotifs and music in this podcast and sort of the way that Josh delivers it. Yes, it's very Leon Nayfak. It's very straight. But can I just play you a sample of, like, the musical light motifs?
[05:39]
Kevin Flynn
Please do.
[05:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Here's a clarinet for family.
[05:42]
Unidentified Commentator
When April was little, he supported the family by touring around telling his story of redemption to church groups and high schools and police academies. But she also knew he couldn't hold down a job.
[05:51]
Rebecca Lavoy
Here's electronica for story Boom.
[05:53]
Unidentified Commentator
The sheriff's clerk, Sharon, she handed us all these tapes, neatly packed in three white boxes. When she first heard from April a few months before our visit, Sharon was super curious to know what was on those tapes.
[06:05]
Rebecca Lavoy
So do you see there that they use, like, texture in this story in a way we don't often hear in these shows?
[06:09]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, it's not amateur hour. I get it. Yeah, it's very clever. It's an interesting concept because it really could. It's really different from any other. I mean, this is what Happy Face is not.
[06:23]
Silk Protein Advertiser
Yes.
[06:24]
Kevin Flynn
Right. It's introspective. Yeah. It's like, okay, this is what we're actually going to try to achieve by looking into this guy's past. And then it again, like I said, I think when we get to the end of episode four, well, even the start of episode four, I mean, it really. It really takes off.
[06:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yeah. So, Lara, I really want to talk about April because even though Josh tells us, really, in episode four, that he kind of thought this whole thing might be a magazine article, it's April that's kind of the driving force behind this. Kevin and I just sort of joked about this being the anti Happy face, but she is the daughter of the bad guy here. Can you just talk a little bit about what you think her role in this podcast is?
[07:05]
Laura Bricker
Well, I think that she's sort of the catalyst for this podcast, like you said, becoming more than just a magazine story. Because, you know, right from the first episode, when you hear how she always thought something was a little off about her childhood, and she's getting up in the middle of the night googling places that they lived because she felt like her father might be connected to crimes there, you immediately sense there's something a little bit different about her approach to what her father may or may not have done than other people that we've heard in the same situation. And also, you know, she, obviously, this is like, can you even imagine if this was somebody, you know, your father, that had been involved in these, these type of crimes? But she's. The way that she talks about it and the way that she is involved in the case and the way that she talks with Josh, she comes across as a very likable character. And. And so I think that this podcast really becomes more, you know. Yes, it's about. And every time I hear Eddie Edwards, I keep thinking of our old liquor commissioner. Every time I hear this, I'm like, it's not that Eddie Edwards. So, you know, this podcast really becomes, yes, it's about him, but it's really her journey and her desire to find the truth. And she's not saying he didn't do these things, but she's also saying, you know, he may or may not have done all these things that this other wingnut guy sort of throws out there to see what will stick.
[08:34]
Rebecca Lavoy
I just want to follow up up with you on that, Lara, because I found myself asking this question, like, April fully knows her father is a serial killer. She knows it, and she turned him in. Like, she fucking knows it. Yes, she knows he's a bad guy. She's also not comfortable with him being portrayed as a worse guy than he was. Although she's saying, like, show me the evidence and I'm fine with it. But, like, if it's not true, don't say it. I find that fascinating. Like, she's not defending him. No, she's like, just let him be the bad guy he is and don't make him worse, but also don't make him better. Like, let the facts. It's fascinating. What is this, like, her psychological journey? Like, what do you think that's about?
[09:17]
Laura Bricker
Well, I think that's it. And the thing is, when you listen to her talk about him, I mean, you expect to hear somebody who is completely overwhelmed and traumatized by the fact that this is their father. And that's not how she presents. She's just kind of matter of fact about it, but also, yeah, she's. She's suitably horrified, but she's not crippled by that knowledge. She's actually seems almost empowered to find out the truth, which is what makes it so compelling to listen to her, I think. So I don't know what it is about her makeup. Maybe it's because she had to become adaptable as a child. As she's moving every five minutes, every time he's like, let's go. It's three in the morning. We're getting out of here. Who knows what went into that, you know, in terms of making her that type of person, but it's. It's fascinating to listen to now.
[10:02]
Rebecca Lavoy
Toby, you sent me a note. Your first note you sent me in your list was, you don't find the podcast super interesting. I want to give you a chance because I have obviously, like, completely latched onto that fact that this is interesting. I'd like to hear your counterpoint on why you don't love this as much as I do. I'm just going to give you the floor. Go ahead, Toby Ball.
[10:21]
Toby Ball
It's kind of interesting to try and explain why something isn't interesting. I guess my feeling is that a lot of the arc is not all that unexpected once you kind of hear what his kind of intentions are. There's little anecdotes that I thought were interesting, but.
[10:42]
Rebecca Lavoy
Kentucky Fried Chicken? Is that what you're talking about? You're talking about the Kentucky Fried Chicken?
[10:45]
Toby Ball
The Kentucky Fried Chicken thing was amusing.
[10:49]
Unidentified Commentator
So, you know, he makes comments throughout the whole dinner. Oh, this is good. Kentucky Fried Chicken. Oh, these biscuits are just like Kentucky Fried Chicken. And I'm kicking my husband on the table.
[10:59]
Rebecca Lavoy
Just. Would you just shut up?
[11:00]
Unidentified Commentator
Just let it go. Who cares? Just eat. It's good.
[11:03]
Then after a while of dropping hints, I'll just come right out and say, you know, you're an idiot. I see this stuff right there in the kitchen. But even in that situation, he would continue to. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
[11:15]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[11:15]
Unidentified Commentator
That he 100% made the dinner just for no reason.
[11:18]
Toby Ball
The thing where he shows up pretending he's a cop and talks to the neighbor is super creepy.
[11:25]
Silk Protein Advertiser
Couple days later, my mom, it hits her.
[11:29]
Rebecca Lavoy
Oh, that was Edwards.
[11:34]
Unidentified Commentator
Just to be clear, the cop with a mustache. That was Ed Edwards trying to picture. I mean, because he had sunglasses and a hat, he had disguised himself pretty well.
[11:45]
Rebecca Lavoy
Oh, he hadn't. It was a fake mustache.
[11:48]
Laura Bricker
It was a bad fake mustache.
[11:50]
Toby Ball
And the fact that he was on what's My Line? Or whatever, the.
[11:54]
Unidentified Commentator
Whatever.
[11:54]
Kevin Flynn
That's Tell the Truth.
[11:56]
Toby Ball
By a variety of logics, we have arrived at the following conclusion. A pair of twos on each end.
[12:02]
Unidentified Commentator
The votes are all in.
[12:03]
Toby Ball
Will the real Ed Edwards please stand up?
[12:05]
Unidentified Commentator
Numbers one and two, both fake, like they're about to rise. And then actual Edwards stands with the wide smile of a man who's just conned everyone into believing he's actually reformed.
[12:15]
Toby Ball
It's kind of good. But, you know, the arc did not, to me, seem to be particularly surprising or unusual beyond, like, these little anecdotes. I don't know, I just kind of felt like we spent a lot of time listening to him talk, listening to other people talk without a whole hell of a lot going on, except for an occasional little anecdote that seemed a little unusual. But once you realize that what he really wants to do is he wants to be executed, and then there's a lot of time spent about the ins and outs of what he's gonna have to do to get transferred to Ohio so he can get executed there, and the disappointments. And I don't know, I just kind of felt I had a hard time connecting with it. And then again, until, like Kevin said, I thought the fourth episode sort of really changed it quite a bit. But, you know, at that point, you're like two hours in or more like, again, I mean, it's not. It's not like it's bad. The idea that there's this treasure trove of audio, like, this guy was such a narcissist that he felt like he better record all his thoughts all the time, and then you have access to that, and the guy's also deranged. That's like a treasure trove of stuff. But the reality is that what he's talking about isn't super interesting. You try to think like, well, what if this guy wasn't? What if we didn't think he was a serial killer? Is any of this stuff then become interesting? And I felt like a lot of it was only interesting because you thought you were getting some kind of insight into this sort of terrifying person. I don't know. I didn't find that particularly compelling. The fourth episode, I thought, was really interesting.
[13:57]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, let's talk a little bit about that fourth episode. But before we do, Kevin, can I just, like, make a counterpoint to what Toby said? And you can disagree with me if you want. All right, so we hear about sort of the tape and, you know, Eddie Edwards, Edward Edwards, which I know he changed his name and that was not his name, but my first question for someone named Edward Edwards is like, why do your parents hate you so much? Anyway, one of the things that stuck out to me that I loved was when April took the podcast producers to explore one of her memories, and she had this memory of her father, like, taking this very specific place, his very specific park, taking her to see A crime scene. And she's like, just. And they were very doubtful. They get there and they find the place, and it's actually where those victims were found. And it really was a crime scene. And it very much seems to me like those setup episodes, which I don't think you loved either, and which Toby clearly didn't love before episode four, were about testing April's veracity so that we could trust that they've brought her into this. And I know it took a kind of a long time to get there. I thought it was really good, and it built a lot for me of investment in. Unlike Happy Face, where it was just like a fever dream. It built a lot for me of, like, it was a slow build, but I know I'm impatient and I always say, like, slow builds are a barrier. Why did I like it so much and you guys didn't?
[15:22]
Laura Bricker
I really liked it too, Rebecca, so.
[15:24]
Rebecca Lavoy
Okay, I'm glad. So it wasn't just me.
[15:26]
Laura Bricker
No, I really liked it and I really liked the music that they used. And the music was even kind of quirky to me. Some of the music that, like, it was like. Like kind of lighter sounding music than you would. And I was like, huh, this is an interesting music choice. And I loved it. Some of the little quips that Josh threw in where I was like, huh, that's kind of funny. I bet he's got a good sense of humor in person.
[15:50]
Unidentified Commentator
The limitations of a podcast prevent me from showing you this video. You can find it yourself on YouTube if you really want, but let me save you the time. This random Santa, I'm not sure who he is, but he's not Edwards.
[16:03]
Kevin Flynn
I do really like Josh. Yeah, I think he is a great storyteller. You definitely can tell from his writing. While he's not a broadcast journalist, he's good with words. He also knows how to take his script and make it sound like he's talking slightly extemporaneously. So it's good in that way, like. Like a Sarah Koenig. Like a Leon Nayfak. You know, there are some, you know, folks that are just sort of like, spinning a tail. Not in a fantabulous way. No, right. Not in a fantastic way, but sort of like just really connecting with you and talking sort of generally about. Yeah, this is what we found, you know, not reading a report, but sort of reporting back to you.
[16:46]
Rebecca Lavoy
Now let's talk about episode four, where it took a big turn for you. I know, because I think I walked in on you listening and you said, I've just changed my mind about this whole thing. John Cameron, who is the guy that we hear has been propagating this story, like we saw the news reports post making a murderer thing like that's Edward Edwards in the footage. Really the one who killed Theresa hall back and he really killed JonBenet Ramsey and he's also the Zodiac. One guy is responsible for this. John Cameron. Our introduction to him is that Josh Dean goes to interview him and he's
[17:21]
Kevin Flynn
in the hospital on morphine with a puncture.
[17:24]
Rebecca Lavoy
On morphine because he says he had a drunken fall. What a way to introduce an unreliable source, right?
[17:34]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, but his unreliability is the reason he's a character in this at all, you know, at all. They're not going to go find like, oh, here's the chief inspector of the case. They're really there to talk to the guy who has created this fable that he deeply believes in. He's, you know, white whale and Ahab
[17:52]
Rebecca Lavoy
for the True Crime industrial complex.
[17:54]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah, well, or I mean, not even that. I mean just it's so far out that like you said that the radio host for coast to Coast.
[18:02]
Laura Bricker
Oh my God, I have to talk about that.
[18:05]
Kevin Flynn
Was even he who was tongue tied.
[18:09]
Unidentified Commentator
There's another moment on coast to coast when Cameron spins the story so wild that when he's finished, the host just pauses for an uncomfortably long time.
[18:21]
Toby Ball
You research these kind of cases, you see all of these stories. Do you ever think that the obsession of tracking this kind of story, I
[18:30]
Laura Bricker
have to tell you, coast to coast has a special place in my home. My Uncle Wal, Uncle Walter, who comes to stay with us every Christmas for an extended visit. He has insomnia and his favorite thing to do at night, he has finally fessed up, is listen to coast to Coast. So for his birthday this year, I got him a six month subscription to the podcast. So he didn't have to stay up till one in the morning to listen to it.
[18:58]
Rebecca Lavoy
Nice. Very nice.
[19:00]
Kevin Flynn
You're sweet.
[19:01]
Laura Bricker
So I was so excited when I heard this. I'm like, oh, this is great. I can't wait to tell Uncle Wall about this.
[19:06]
Kevin Flynn
Now.
[19:06]
Rebecca Lavoy
Toby, I kept thinking about you listening to episode four because I felt like April, who by the way, as we mentioned, is the daughter of the serial killer Edward Edwards, is playing you in this podcast when she's listening to John Cameron's claims on the Today show.
[19:24]
Unidentified Commentator
Edwards ties a lot of his murders to 666.
[19:27]
Okay, that's just absolutely ludicrous to me. That is just totally ludicrous it's crazy.
[19:33]
Rebecca Lavoy
Have no idea how he came up
[19:36]
Unidentified Commentator
with that idea, but that's where the evidence led.
[19:38]
What evidence? Seriously, what evidence? And he's not really.
[19:44]
Lacy was killed on Christmas Eve. Her body was found on Palm Sunday. He stages his murders on Christian holidays.
[19:53]
No, he doesn't.
[19:54]
Fourth of July, Memorial Days.
[19:56]
No, he doesn't.
[19:56]
Anything that's a significant day in history.
[19:58]
Rebecca Lavoy
You also suggest he may be responsible for this.
[20:01]
Unidentified Commentator
Yeah, so.
[20:01]
Laura Bricker
And then.
[20:01]
Unidentified Commentator
All right, now, the ones that he confessed to, were any of those on any holidays?
[20:06]
Commercial Announcer
No. No.
[20:08]
Rebecca Lavoy
So, Toby, do you think that April is the Toby Ball of this podcast?
[20:11]
Toby Ball
Geez, yeah. I hope so. No, I mean, again, this is where I thought the podcast kind of suddenly got interesting, where you've got this woman who grew up with this monster as a father, and she knows he did terrible things, and then she has to deal with this guy who's like, he was the Zodiac Killer and he killed this person. Have you ever heard of a private. Do you think your dad ever chartered jets? It's like, what, you think he charted a jet so he could fly to denver and kill JonBenet Ramsey and then get back? I mean, what the hell are you talking about? That was interesting. It was interesting to have that dynamic set up. And that guy is just so full of shit. It's unbelievable. When you were talking earlier about the Remnant, and you talked about how you thought it was clever framing to start off with the bomb and then sort of move on from there to sort of the meat of what they're going to talk about, I almost think that maybe they could have started with something like this. It might have caught my interest a little bit more. And I hate that idea of criticizing something because they didn't make it the way you wanted them to make it. You got to kind of take it on its own merits. I don't know. I guess I'll save it for the recommendations, but I think if you can hang in there to get to the fourth one, there's a good payoff.
[21:44]
Rebecca Lavoy
Now, Lara, at the end of the fourth episode, this is why I put the extra spoiler alert in our spoiler alerts. There's a bit of a kicker, because the podcast tells us, first we're gonna look at what this guy did, and then we're gonna look at the larger thing. And it does take three episodes to get to the larger thing. But then at the end of the fourth episode, maybe he actually did do something that John Cameron thinks he may have done, and they're gonna like now maybe solve that. What did you think of that?
[22:13]
Laura Bricker
I don't even know. I will reserve judgment until I hear what they have to say. Because, you know, I guess it is probable when you hear this guy, I mean, he wrote a book about his crimes, he wants a lot of attention about his crimes. He's pretty narcissistic. And then when you hear kind of details of things that he's done and the fact that they were moving all the time, it is plausible to think that maybe there are other things that he was involved in or. I gonna go on a limb here. I don't think it's JonBenet, but I don't think it's Theresa Halbach. But it is gonna be interesting to hear where they go next with this.
[22:51]
Rebecca Lavoy
Do you think he's the Zodiac?
[22:53]
Laura Bricker
No, but am I gonna eat my words? I don't know. I mean, who knows? But I won't be surprised if he's linked to more crimes.
[23:04]
Kevin Flynn
Well, I mean I think every they have handled this podcast so well to start. I can't imagine this is a fake out. Or it's worse like what happens with happened with cereal where they have these great cliffhangers and never fulfill them. So my interest is now piqued as to what they might actually find out.
[23:31]
Commercial Announcer
Stuart Fails to Save the Universe is about Stuart Bloom who ran the comic book shop on the Big Bang Theory and now has to restore reality after he accidentally causes a multiverse Armageddon. On the Stewart Fails to Save the Universe podcast. Hear from the creators, cast and crew as they unpack each episode after it airs on HBO Max. Watch the Stewart Fails to Save the Universe official podcast on HBO Max, YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
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[24:45]
Rebecca Lavoy
So Kevin who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast.
[24:47]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh, our sponsor is Quince.
[24:50]
Rebecca Lavoy
Kevin. I'm wearing a Quint's dress right now.
[24:51]
Jonathan Manhevar
I know. Hold on Nana. Don't get ahead of ourselves. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on record. Pete. Comfortable, versatile and somehow right for almost every occasion. And Quint makes it easy to create a summer wardrobe that you'll love with
[25:06]
Rebecca Lavoy
things like what is this incredible linen wrap dress? I wear this dress all the time. This button down like camp dress. I love it.
[25:12]
Jonathan Manhevar
They've got such amazing European linen products shirts that I have. It's great for the summertime.
[25:19]
Rebecca Lavoy
You look pants I just ordered.
[25:20]
Jonathan Manhevar
Very comfortable yet elegated.
[25:22]
Kevin Flynn
Wait, wait wait. I mean elevated.
[25:23]
Jonathan Manhevar
Elevated.
[25:24]
Kevin Flynn
But we don't know.
[25:25]
Jonathan Manhevar
You just ordered more stuff from Quinn.
[25:26]
Rebecca Lavoy
Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.
[25:28]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh, that's.
[25:30]
Rebecca Lavoy
I was European linen pants. I had to try them cuz they're a new style.
[25:33]
Jonathan Manhevar
Oh man.
[25:34]
Kevin Flynn
Oh man.
[25:35]
Laura Bricker
Sorry.
[25:35]
Jonathan Manhevar
No, it's okay, it's okay. At this point though, Quince, please you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think there at Quince.
[25:52]
Rebecca Lavoy
To make your summer wardrobe feel easier, go to quince.com crime crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Bonjour High that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crime crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime crime
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[26:46]
Rebecca Lavoy
I think we should do what we do and tell our listeners should they check out the Clearing. It's a podcast from Pineapple Street Media. I think the partnership with Gimlet that's just who's distributing it and doing the marketing for them. I'm not sure but anyway it's the Pineapple street people have made this podcast the Clearing with Josh Dean. Thumbs up or thumbs down review. What do you think Laura Bricker? What should our audience take Away. Thumbs up or thumbs down?
[27:10]
Laura Bricker
I'm going with thumbs up. I really liked this podcast. I liked the narrator style. I liked, you know, his manner of delivery and his. His writing. And I loved April, the daughter of the killer. And I also really liked the quirky music that they used and the production quality of this podcast. So I really like this. It was really interesting to listen to. There's also, you know, you've got tapes, we've got access to the killer himself. That's always fun. So I would say thumbs up, Toby Ball.
[27:39]
Rebecca Lavoy
I can't wait to hear what you think. Thumbs up or thumbs down from the clearing. Where do you finally land, Toby Ball?
[27:46]
Toby Ball
I guess I'll give it a thumbs up. You know, the writing's good. You know, everything basically about it is good. Other than the first three episodes, I don't even know if it's slow going, but it's just. I didn't find it super interesting. And then suddenly the fourth episode comes, and I was like, oh, well, that's a whole different deal. And I should also say that I think that other people will like it more than I did. I'm just not that interested in, like, the whole serial killer genre. If people are interested in it, there's probably a lot there for them. And then again, you get to the fourth, and it suddenly springs to life, like Kevin said. So I'll give it a thumbs up, but it's kind of a. It's kind of a qualified one.
[28:27]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yeah, I'm giving it a huge thumbs up. And I just want to say for everybody out there who disagreed, when we said that happy face was. What'd you say, Kevin? Fucking hot mess of a podcast.
[28:40]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[28:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
I think this is everything for me that that podcast wasn't and everything for me that the podcast. What was the other one with the kids in the van and the art. Broken hearts like this is. It could be so voyeuristic. We have the daughter of a serial killer working with a reporter to flesh out a story. It could be a disaster. And it is the opposite of a disaster for me. It's funny all the complaints that you and Toby have, Kevin, about sort of like the restraint of the first three episodes and the sort of, like, the things it does to me, those are the things that make the fourth episode work. Because if we started there, I would be calling bullshit, just like April does in that episode. But the integrity of the first three build the foundation for me, upon which now I am willing to go to whatever crazy place this podcast goes, because I have so much trust in what they're doing. I am in love with the clearing. I think it's one of the best things I've listened to in a very long time. I very often say on this show that, like, I only listen to what I have to listen to, review to review it, and then I'll never talk about it again. Like, I am going to be listening to this podcast every week until it's over. I love it. It's going to be first on my playlist. Kevin, what about you? Thumbs up or thumbs down for the clearing?
[29:58]
Kevin Flynn
I'm a thumbs up. Like, I said that it was a really good podcast. And then you get to episode four, and all of a sudden, I mean, it's a fantastic episode. I can only hope that it means that it's taking the podcast in a great way. I will. Can I tell you, though, what the thing I really hate about the podcast is? The name.
[30:17]
Rebecca Lavoy
The clearing.
[30:18]
Kevin Flynn
The clearing. What does it mean is this is we're going to be clearing somebody. So this is the clearing of them. No, it's not about a clearing in the woods. Right.
[30:26]
Rebecca Lavoy
Well, the place was found.
[30:27]
Laura Bricker
That's clearing where they went, where the pond was. Right.
[30:29]
Rebecca Lavoy
That's her memory, that clearing, I kind of think.
[30:33]
Kevin Flynn
See, because I think the place is like, we're clearing.
[30:35]
Rebecca Lavoy
No, it's the place. Because, remember, the place of her, of
[30:39]
Kevin Flynn
her childhood was a clearing.
[30:40]
Rebecca Lavoy
Yes.
[30:45]
Jonathan Manhevar
Okay, Rebecca, so I gotta ask, do
[30:46]
Kevin Flynn
you still love, love this podcast?
[30:48]
Rebecca Lavoy
I still really love this podcast. I really love it. If I remember correctly, Jonathan Manhevar was one of the producers of the podcast. It had a really singular soundtrack. The scoring was a lot of clarinet, kind of jaunty, kind of interesting. And I still, to this day. Sorry, Josh, if you're listening, I think it's the best podcast Josh Dean has ever made. I think this podcast is interesting. I think it's. I think it ends up being about something completely different than it starts being about. And, yeah, for me, it really holds up. What about you?
[31:16]
Jonathan Manhevar
You don't have to apologize to Josh for saying it's the best one. It isn't like saying this was the worst one and we shit all over it, so.
[31:23]
Kevin Flynn
That's true.
[31:23]
Rebecca Lavoy
He's fine.
[31:24]
Jonathan Manhevar
Anyway, yeah, we'll get to other things this summer that we can shit over.
[31:28]
Rebecca Lavoy
All right, so this show was recorded in the Kaitlin Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also shit talk the Today show in real time. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.
[31:59]
Commercial Announcer
Partners in Crime Media
[32:03]
Silk Protein Advertiser
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