Coal Survivor

Summary

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Crime Writers On... Podcast Summary

Episode: Coal Survivor
Date: May 21, 2026
Hosts: Rebecca Lavoie, Kevin Flynn, Laura Bricker, Toby Ball

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode reviews the podcast Coal Survivor (from Crooked Media and Campside Media), which examines a turbulent chapter in American labor history. The podcast tells the story of Jock Yablonski, a reform-minded labor advocate who bravely challenged corruption in the United Mine Workers of America (UMWA) during the 1960s and 70s—a campaign that would end in shocking violence and ultimately catalyze union reform.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Tone and Style of Coal Survivor

• Documentary Approach: The panel agrees the series is deeply researched and delivered in a compelling, almost "college course" style, but with the pacing and narrative drive of contemporary podcasts like Fiasco or Slow Burn.
  • "It's like listening to a very entertaining college course. Yeah, I know. This is, like, made for me." — Toby Ball (08:29)
• Host Praise: Special shoutout to host Nicholas Mangione for authoritative, clear, and engaging narration.
  • "This host, Nikolai, solid job. Very much reminds me, like you say, of Leon Nayfak." — Kevin Flynn (46:43)
• Accessibility: While some panelists found it dense, they agreed it remains accessible even to listeners not steeped in labor history.

Unions, Power, and Corruption

• Historical Context:

  • The panel discusses the period’s immense power struggles between workers, companies, and union leaders. While unions were once potent forces (especially in politics), their influence waned over time for reasons including internal corruption and legislation like "right-to-work" laws and Citizens United.
    • "Back then, at least the way the news portrayed it was that these were sort of monumental things. And...these union bosses were like public figures, right?" — Toby Ball (11:58)
  • The stark division between the rank-and-file and leadership is a recurring issue, often with tragic, violent results.

• Corruption and Violence:

  • The show underscores the iron-fisted rule of UMW president Tony Boyle, whose regime was marked by secrecy, violence, and collusion with coal companies.
  • Violent suppression at union meetings and outright murder are recounted in detail.
    • "You go to the convention to elect the president and you speak out for somebody and you get the shit kicked out of you with the microphone." — Kevin Flynn (10:20)
    • “[Tony’s men] beat him for opposing the new leadership, beat him until he was so bloody they had to call a recess.” (10:40)

• Failures and Legacy:

  • The show explores how union leadership was often out of touch with or opposed to miner interests, notably on mine safety and black lung disease.
    • “No calls for reform or change. No going after the coal company.” (18:21)
    • Tony Boyle: "This happens to be... as president... one of the better companies as far as cooperation and safety is concerned, to work with." (18:33)

The True Crime and Tragic Core

• The Assassination:
  • The murder of Jock Yablonski, his wife, and daughter is at the heart of the podcast, depicted in gripping, visceral detail—an event that shocked the nation and catalyzed reform within the union.
    • "I was horrified to hear that the wife and the daughter were also murdered..." — Kevin Flynn (33:41)
    • “It’s like In Cold Blood is what it’s like.” — Laura Bricker (35:09)
• The Aftermath / Justice:
  • Jock’s son Chip emerges as a key figure, orchestrating a grassroots campaign that ultimately ousts Boyle, demonstrating ordinary people’s ability to transform corrupt institutions.
    • "Chip decides that the only way he's gonna get justice for his father... is by getting Tony out... They win handily... by like a 2 to 1 margin." — Toby Ball (37:27–38:55)

Broader Reflections on Unions Then and Now

• Changing Public Perception:

  • The show provokes a broader panel conversation on the declining influence of unions and modern attitudes, as well as the critical difference between public and private unions.
    • "Our feelings about unions are complicated because sometimes...you would think...should be sticking up for their workers when they're getting black lung disease." — Kevin Flynn (17:16)

• Personal Connections:

  • The panelists share personal experiences with unionization efforts in journalism and broadcasting, underscoring the enduring relevance and challenges of workplace organizing.

• Safety and the Human Toll:

  • The panel is especially moved by the horrifying dangers of mining and the failure of the union to advocate for worker safety, described as "nightmare fuel."
    • "It's literally one of the more terrifying...jobs. I can't even imagine being a family member of somebody that's working in a mine." — Laura Bricker (26:49)

Ralph Nader’s Role — A Notable Sidebar

• The prominent public advocate’s involvement (and subsequent withdrawal) is seen as emblematic of the era: he catalyzes action but doesn’t stick around for the consequences.
  • "Nader...seems like sort of the mercurial guy who kind of shows up and helps get some stuff moving." — Toby Ball (29:24)

Companion Recommendations:

• The panel repeatedly recommends the documentary Harlan County USA for listeners wishing to go deeper into the realities presented in Coal Survivor.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“It’s like listening to a very entertaining college course. Yeah, I know. This is, like, made for me.”
— Toby Ball (08:29)

“You go to the convention to elect the president and you speak out for somebody and you get the shit kicked out of you with the microphone. The actual hell!”
— Kevin Flynn (10:20)

“[Tony’s men] beat him with clubs, beat him for opposing the new leadership, beat him until he was so bloody they had to call a recess.”
— Narrator/Actor (10:40)

“I was horrified to hear that the wife and the daughter were also murdered.”
— Kevin Flynn (33:41)

“If Toby Ball had a G spot, this podcast would be fingering it.”
— Kevin Flynn (47:17)

“It’s a love letter to the power of organized labor about how it works... It doesn’t shy away from corruption, from violence, from the dark side—but it gives the dark so it can provide the light.”
— Kevin Flynn (47:26)

“To hear that the union really isn’t doing what they should be doing... that is a good jumping off point for a story of injustice.”
— Laura Bricker (27:09)

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Thumbs Up / Thumbs Down Reviews (43:43)

• Laura Bricker: Mild/qualified Thumbs Up
  • "Well researched, well reported, extremely thorough... just super dense and not my personal preference of style. But overall... extremely well done."
• Toby Ball: Enthusiastic Thumbs Up
  • "This is exactly the kind of podcast I like. Execution... was great. It’s important now... for the public to hear more about labor unions."
• Kevin Flynn: Thumbs Up
  • "Solid... really interesting. If you're a fan of Fiasco, Slow Burn, or Rip Current, you really got to listen to Coal Survivor."
• Rebecca Lavoie: Thumbs Up
  • "Not my kind of show... hard for me to listen to eight hours of just solely men talking. But... it could have been really boring. It wasn't boring. I learned a lot."

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Important Timestamps

• Podcast Introduction & History Tease: 06:00–07:59
• Discussion of Labor History & Unions: 11:27–14:59
• Violence Within the Union: 10:14–11:27
• True Crime Core—Yablonski Assassination: 32:36–35:41
• Tony Boyle and Corruption: 35:45–37:15
• The Electoral and Reform Struggle: 37:27–41:00
• Final Reviews Begin: 43:43

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Overall Panel Sentiment

A rigorously reported, atmospheric, and sometimes shocking exploration of a pivotal labor movement tragedy. Coal Survivor is recommended for listeners interested in labor history, investigative journalism, or true crime with a broader societal lens. While some may find it dense, its historical significance and storytelling are widely praised.

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Further Recommendations

• Harlan County USA documentary (companion viewing)
• Other documentary-narrative podcasts like Fiasco and Slow Burn

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Transcript

[Greta Johnson]

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official podcast. Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dan Cummins]

Do you love hair raising? Allegedly true stories about the paranormal? Then you should summon the podcast Scared to Death. It's the popular horror series with more than 60 million downloads to its name and is co hosted by me, Dan

[Lindsay]

Cummins and me, Lindsay, co host and also Dan's wife. Each week on Scared to Death, we share bone chilling tales from old books and creepy corners of the web. And even some submitted by our listeners. All designed to make you want to sleep with the lights on.

[Dan Cummins]

Think you can handle the horror? Tune in to Scared to Death every Tuesday at the stroke of midnight to find out. To get the crime writers on after

[Kevin Flynn]

show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimedia

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, a labor advocate's campaign to unseat a corrupt union boss ends in tragedy and reform. We'll discuss the podcast Coal Survivor from Crooked Media and Campside Media. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast, my husband and love of my life, Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hello, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Piper Green series of cozy mysteries. It's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And finally, all the way from Valencia, Spain, author of the City trilogy, host of Rip Current, More like Ancient Faliens and the podcast soon to be a major motion picture, strange Arrivals. It's Toby Ball. Que pasa, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Hola, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Kevin, this is Thursday's program?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, it is.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What's coming up on next week's shows?

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay, on Monday we're going to talk about the Netflix film based on the bestseller Remarkably Bright Creatures with Sally Fields. And then podcast, everybody's been telling us we gotta listen to. It's called Love Trapped.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right. It's about a former contestant on the Bachelor. Right. Love Trapped.

[Kevin Flynn]

I haven't, I haven't listened to you. Don't spoil It.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's literally in the description of the podcast.

[Kevin Flynn]

I haven't downloaded it yet. Don't spoil it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Toby, we are about to review a podcast about labor issues, but I understand that you're in the middle of a really explosive labor issue in there. In Spain, right?

[Toby Ball]

There is a nationwide teacher strike. I think it's like a whole variety of issues. I was trying to get somebody to explain it to me, but.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

But I only spoke Spanish.

[Toby Ball]

Spanish. I was like, can you slow down?

[Narrator/Actor]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Your Spanish teachers on strike?

[Toby Ball]

No, but it has to do with. It has to do with salary, I think, course loads and. And class sizes. It's like all the. You know, it's the same stuff that I think teachers around the world are dealing with, but they take it, you know. So yesterday I was walking around, trying to go to this bookstore and just kind of heard all this noise in the direction I was going and walked out onto this, you know, pretty major square in Valencia. And it was just packed with teachers all in these green shirts, you know, just sort of chanting and, you know, blowing on vuvuzuelas and banging on drums and stuff. So I had to, like, kind of skirt around them. And then today I heard all this noise outside our apartment window, went to take a look, and there was this huge, like, demonstration march that went right down our. Right down our street. I'll put it up on Instagram, some. Some videos of it. But, yeah, it's pretty wild. And people were, like, standing out on their balconies, like, clapping and, like, you know, giving them the thumbs up, shaking their fists and stuff.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

The public was cheering for teachers. Imagine that.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, it was. It was cool. Like, it was definitely. Yeah, a very European scene, I gotta tell you.

[Kevin Flynn]

In Europe, they love a good strike.

[Toby Ball]

Oh, they do. They do.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, yeah, they want, you know, the feast of St. Santislav off. You know, they want.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Is that a real thing? You just made that up?

[Kevin Flynn]

Not that feast day, but there's like, feast days that they say. We can't possibly work on the assumption Thursday. They really want as much time off as they can get.

[Toby Ball]

There's a taxi strike today, too. I think there's a lot of stuff going on. It's hard to keep track of all the strikes. There was a transit strike about six weeks ago, right during fais, when most people are using, which is the right time to do it, obviously. But there was delayed subways, and just. They get so packed because the busiest, like, travel times of the year.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So anyway, Kevin and I were in Montreal the last time, and There was a big strike of some kind. Remember, there was, like, that huge parade. The cops were locking down the city.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got that wrong.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It was.

[Kevin Flynn]

It was a celebration for the Grey Cup.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You're right. But we thought it was a strike.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Because there was a strike going on at the same time. So we're like, this must be.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, yeah, there was some of the municipal workers, too. They were marching alongside, but.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, and then we thought the police presence was for that, but it was actually for this, like, hockey thing.

[Toby Ball]

No.

[Kevin Flynn]

Football stadium.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Okay, sorry.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca, stop contributing.

[Toby Ball]

The Montreal Alouettes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Stop contributing. I hear it all the time.

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, all those people have Jock Labonski to pay to thank.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, well, Kevin, should we. Speaking of, should we talk about the podcast we're supposed to be talking about?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, leading off, Jock was so

[Narrator/Actor]

immersed in the news that he didn't notice the man lurking outside his house. The man who had been sent to kill him. A man named Paul Gilley. He'd been hunting Jock Jablonski for weeks by then, and now he'd made his way to Jock's home.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

In the 1960s, United Mine Workers advocate Jock Yablonski bucked his own union for giving into coal companies on critical issues, including cases of black lung disease and mine safety. And when the evidence revealed union president Tony Boyle had been making secret deals with the companies to enrich himself at the expense of workers, Yablonsky mounted a campaign to unseat the labor boss.

[Narrator/Actor]

Today I am announcing my candidacy for the presidency of the United Mine Workers of America. I do so out of a deep awareness of the insufferable gap between the union leadership and the working miners.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

But a challenge to Boyle's iron grip on the UMW was a dangerous proposition. After Yablonsky was mysteriously gunned down in his bed, a group of young upstarts discover the only way to get justice and achieve reform in is to bring down the untouchable union boss.

[Narrator/Actor]

They were men who would never betray Tony as long as he was president of the union. Which is why Chip knew he had one move left. Take the presidency from Tony. Beat him in a new election.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

In the latest season of the podcast Shadow Kingdom from Crooked Media and Campside Media, Coal Survivor recounts the deadly struggle for power within the United Coal Miners. Union host Nicolo Mangione unpacks the plan to silence a reform candidate and. And the struggle to reorganize unionized labor to improve conditions for union members and not for the comfort of their leaders. Spoiler alert. We're talking about plot points from Survivor, so if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. Laura Bricker. This is a very Toby ish podcast. Yes or no? And what does that mean?

[Laura Bricker]

That means as I started listening to this, I was like, okay, this is probably not for me, but Toby's going to love this. It's filled with history about, you know, a movement of the union and corruption and, you know, the system and the people who change it. And it's, it's like listening to a college course in a podcast. I'm like, Toby's going to love this.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Toby, is that true? Is this like listening to a college course in a podcast? And did you in fact, love it for that reason?

[Toby Ball]

It's like listening to a very entertaining college course. Yeah, I know. This is, like, made for me. You know, it's, it's, it's a history podcast, particularly labor history. It's got a very sort of Nayfakian style to it, which I, you know, everybody knows.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I like explain Nay Fakian style to those who may not be familiar with that phrase.

[Toby Ball]

Leon Nayfak, who does Slow Burn and did Fiasco. Yeah, it's just these, you know, the sort of documentary style podcasts, but highly researched, told in sort of a pacey fashion, authoritative. So anyway, yeah, once I started listening to it and I was about 10 minutes in, I was like, all right, this is the good stuff as far as I'm concerned.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Put it in my veins as Toby.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. I also had Leon Nayfawk's name written down.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Laura's napping through the podcast.

[Laura Bricker]

It totally was. I was like, what just happened? I'm like, oh, my God, Thank God. A cure for my insomnia.

[Kevin Flynn]

Nate Falken. That, that's high praise. Because I got to say, ever since, since we've been doing like, top tens, I don't think there a year has gone by where a Leon Nayfak podcast hasn't been represented.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Unless you didn't make one.

[Kevin Flynn]

Unless he didn't make one. Right? So it reminds me of Fiasco or a season of Rip Current. Quite frankly, the style isn't quite the same as something like, you know, like Slow Burner Fiasco. But, you know, because they don't also, like, they don't have like, the big names, plus, you know, the, the secretary who was also there, you know, they've got a bunch of people like that. But the thoroughness of the storytelling, it really has some meat to it. And we've got a host that we really like delivering this in a very thorough way. So, yeah, it's got a lot of meat to it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin, were you surprised by how on their face, violent the union bosses were?

[Kevin Flynn]

What I learned actually about the. Holy shit, Holy shit. You go to the convention to elect the president and you speak out for somebody and you get the shit kicked out of you with the microphone. The actual hell, we're not satisfied.

[Narrator/Actor]

And he was jerked away from the microphone and beaten with clubs.

Tony's men beat him with clubs, beat him for opposing the new leadership, beat him until he was so bloody they had to call a recess.

I mean, it was ugly.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, that's. That was pretty rough. I found that all very enlightening, but it really set the stage for, like, what the stakes were in trying to, you know, challenge the authority of the president of this particular union. The whole thing about Harlan county and how, like, this particular union was like, it was built on literal wars, right? It's violence in its origin story and, like, is there throughout. But that part I found. I mean, there's a lot of this that I enjoy, but I. But I found that part really enlightening.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Toby, in the last couple decades, I think the unions that have really not lost a lot of power are police unions. But it seems like labor unions and other areas. Like, it used to be like you got a union endorsement and you were a politician and that was that teachers union wanted you or the, you know, UAW wanted you or whatever. Can you talk about that sort of ebb and flow and the power of unions historically in this country?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, well, I think there's, obviously there's phases, but this is taking place 70s and 80s. I mean, it's like you were describing, getting union endorsements was a really big deal. And then unions were part of the get out the vote. I mean, they probably still are, but back then, at least the way the news portrayed it was that these were sort of monumental things. And there was also, like, these union bosses were like public figures, right? That people knew who they were, they wielded a lot of power. But they weren't sort of politicians that were representing a geographic district. Right. They're representing a group like a type of worker. And as you see in this and sort of famously amongst a lot of other unions, there was a lot of corruption that was involved, which frustrating because it's not the workers who are corrupt. It's the leadership of these unions. But people who are in the union get tarred. Unions in general get tarred. When they were trying to organize a union, University of New Hampshire for, you know, not for professors, but for staff. It was really interesting seeing what the pushback was from people. And it's just like there, I think now there's such a negative connotation on a lot of people about unions. But. And I'll talk about this more later, but Kevin was talking about Harlan County. There's a, a famous documentary I'd never seen before, but I watched it after I listened to this podcast called Harlan county usa, which is about the miners strike against Duke Energy back then, but also has some of the stuff from this podcast and you see pretty explicitly why unions are necessary. But that seems to have been lost a little bit these days. I think the perception of unions has changed. The power of unions has changed. And I think the government's attitude towards unions, I think unions have. The federal government has largely softened union power partly through Supreme Court rulings like

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Citizens United and state legislation like right to work and all that.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, right to work and stuff. There's a lot of anti union stuff in the government. So anyway, part of what was interesting in addition to all the sort of mechanics of the show and stuff is you're looking at a time when I think unions meant more sort of to the national public, even people who weren't in unions than they do now, which I think they, unless you're actually in a union, I think they kind of feel like an afterthought when you're looking at the national picture.

[Laura Bricker]

I was going to say, Toby, when you were talking about unh. When I was working at the newspapers here on the Seacoast, there was a time where there was an effort to unionize. And I, and that was, that was in like within the last 20 years. And I, you know, I remember how secretive we all had to be and how it was like it was kind of terrifying. And when the management found out, I mean it was, it was definitely a very tense situation and they didn't end up unionizing. But I remember at the time feeling like we were in like some sort of COVID CIA operation.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's what it's like. I mean the newsroom where I worked unionized a few years ago and you know, as I'm management, so there's all these rules about what we can and can't do. What we say can't say. Cuz it's illegal to do any Sort of like union busting activity. But you hire a lawyer for both. Both sides have representation. You know, they had sag, we had our labor lawyer. And to hear about these conversations, I felt like very. It felt very like, not Hoffa esque, let's say, but like it felt very much like we weren't anti the union. But I felt like even though we weren't anti the union, it was still putting us in a position where there's talking points that you use and stuff. And it is a tense situation. You're not wrong.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. I was also at. When I was at the TV station, the videographers and engineers were attempting to unionize. And, you know, I think one of the things. And I was supportive of that and good for you. I was. Yeah. I would honk the horn when they were out there, you know, and like some other people, you know, because I think that that really benefited their. Their situation. And I think one of the things that we need to, you know, distinguish between our public unions and private unions, and we seem to, generally speaking, support public unions. Right. For teachers and for DPW workers. And we're a little suspicious more than, you know, police unions. But that's also different.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

We are.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, we are.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

The four of us.

[Kevin Flynn]

The four of us. Right. Because, you know, it doesn't seem they're really about collective bargaining. They're more about keeping bad cops on the job. But that being said, and we love firefighters, unions, et cetera, et cetera, but that ends up being, you know, people end up sort of having bad experiences or, you know, the negative connotations seems to be more towards private unions in the sense, you know, the electricians union or something like that. It's like, okay, well, teamsters. Teamsters, yeah. You know, stuff. Stuff like that. We're like, well, we can't get on the job. We can't start until 5:01 or whatever it is. These kinds of. One of the things that a lot of people find is that they actually kind of like in their private job when the union comes sniffing around because management ends up a lot of times giving the workforce some of those benefits without having to bring the union in. So it ends up benefiting a lot of other people. But. But our feelings about unions are complicated because sometimes. And this ends up being sort of one of the animating features here of this particular story where you have a union and the unionists, you would think, should be sticking up for their workers when they're getting black lung disease.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

And dying crashes and nobody's looking at that or nobody's making us think about it. Or mine safety or those kinds of things. Or what's happening with pensions. And when your union leadership doesn't bother sticking up for that.

[Narrator/Actor]

No calls for reform or change. No going after the coal company.

No.

In fact, Tony wants people to know that this company, the one with the previous safety violations where 78 men just died.

This happens to be, in my judgment, as president of the United Mine Workers of America, one of the better companies as far as cooperation and safety is concerned, to work with.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What's the point?

[Kevin Flynn]

What's the point? Right. What's the point of collective bargain? What's the point of having the union in the first place if you're not going to do that?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You know, you get a lot of benefits when you join us on Patreon.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, my goodness, yes.

[Stavros Halakis]

Ooh.

[Kevin Flynn]

We are. I mean, we're not unionized, but we are kind of a. Laura and I

[Toby Ball]

are looking to unionize.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, no.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, we've been talking about it. Well, I'm looking to cancel this podcast.

[Narrator/Actor]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, I'll just say you. I'm just saying, you and your family, we better sleep with one eye open.

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, you know what I've got? I've got cats that will protect me.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's true. That's true. We can find scabs. No, we would never do that. No, we would never do that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Ronald Young Jr. Would be a scab.

[Kevin Flynn]

He would be.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, he wouldn't.

[Kevin Flynn]

We brought in a couple of guests, you know, but they weren't really. There wasn't a picket line. They were crossing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Katie from Dateline. That's scab.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's scab. Hey. At patreon.com partnersincrime media, you get all sorts of. Of exclusive content, including the crime writers on After Show. Tobyball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast, Art Vice podcast, Married With Podcast, Rebecca and Mel Somethings off, and Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker podcast. If you come in at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime writers on early and ad free. And the Deep Divers, not only do they get all that, but they get to be official sponsors of Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast and be there in the chat or even like in the show when they record their episodes. Now, another way you can support us is checking out our Amazon storefront where we have some of our favorite things that you can check out purchase for yourself. Rebecca, what are this week's Amazon recommendations?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Well, Kevin, this one comes from a Listener to somethings off who sent me a gift via Amazon Wishlist. It's a ninja vertical waffle maker, man. And that shit rules, really.

[Kevin Flynn]

So you pour it in the top,

[Rebecca Lavoy]

the waffle maker stands up, you pour the batter in the top, and then when the waffle's done, you just pull the lid down and it's just sitting there. But you can use it to make cake waffles. You can use it to make all sorts of like, there's recipes in the book that it came with for like cornbread stuffing waffles to use on like Thanksgiving like, or with fried chicken. Like, I am obsessed with this waffle maker. I love it so much. Do I not, Kevin? I used it like yesterday on a Thursday.

[Kevin Flynn]

Absolutely.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yep.

[Kevin Flynn]

Didn't even wait for the weekend.

[Greta Johnson]

Nope.

[Kevin Flynn]

Had to immediately break it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Waffles are for every day.

[Kevin Flynn]

And Toby, can you tell us what are your listener inspired Toby Ball's deep cut recommendations.

[Toby Ball]

All right, so for the exercisers out there, I'm going to start off with the globe clotrimazole antifungal cream, 1% USP, 1 ounce anti fungal treatment. Relieves itching, burning, cracking and scaling associated with athlete's foot. And then it just says Joe. And I can't figure out what the hell that's gonna get into.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Toby Ball]

So I'm glad I brought that up.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's right.

[Toby Ball]

Just to ring in the ring in the weekend. And then Woofies Advanced Dog Hip and joint supplement with glucosamine chondro, chondrogen, omega 3 MSM, mainstream media and green lipped muscle.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

60 pork flavored treats, flavored chews for small. And it says an. I think it's animals. So they get these things that are made out of all this other stuff, including green lipped mussels. And then they flavor it with pork. Is that what I'm.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, those. By the way, those hip things for dogs, man, our dog could barely walk and now he's been taking those for like two years and he's fine. Like, they're incredible. Yeah, they're incredible.

[Laura Bricker]

Wow.

[Toby Ball]

Is it the green lipped mussels? Is that what does it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, it's the MSM and Costo Chondroitin. Yes.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Actor]

All right.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay. All that great stuff. Shop is [e-mail] shop crimewriters on. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Before we end this very fine business section, do we have any Patreon Patron Saints of the week? This week?

[Kevin Flynn]

Our Patreon Patron Saints are Sarah, Thorne and Rose Meyers. Bless you.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I see what you did there, Rose and Thorn.

[Kevin Flynn]

You did. You saw that?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I did a little bit of a little like, theme.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I sometimes like that.

[Narrator/Actor]

I did.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Rose, thank you so much for supporting us on Patreon. We literally can't make this podcast unless you do that. Especially if Toby and Laura unionize.

[Sugar Bee Apple Sponsor]

Yep.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, it's gonna be a lot more expensive around here. But seriously, your contributions to this show, we love making extra content for you and it keeps us going making this show for free for everyone. So thank you so much. Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Does thus end the business section.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Spade that music out.

[Greta Johnson]

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official podcast. Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Stavros Halakis]

Hey everyone, it's Stavros Halakis and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, Stavi's World. Each week we're joined by great guests like Josh Safdie, Eric Andre, Caleb Herron, and more. It's sort of an interview show, but really we're just messing around, making each other laugh and hopefully making you laugh while you're washing the dishes or grocery shopping or on a long drive. Plus, I take listener calls where we have honest conversations about dating, life and everything in between. Imagine if your therapist was a vulgar degenerate whose office was in a Greek diner. No scripts, no polish, and absolutely no holding back. Listen to Stavi's World wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Rebecca Lavoy]

So, Kevin, who's the sponsor of this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, we're sponsored by Quint.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Shut up.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, summer is the perfect time to rethink the clothes that you've been reaching for every day. Take all those clothes that you bought to from Quince in the winter, all those nice sweaters. You put them to one side of the closet or in a different drawer. And you bring out all of last year's linens. Get the new ones to add to it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca, what have you recently purchased? Quints.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Well, you know, I love a linen shirt.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And I have a couple of Quint's linen shirts. The European linen, I love. The dark blue with the white stripes is my favorite one. I have a white one. I've got a pink one. I've got a solid blue one. They are the most versatile, cute shirts. I wear it over a bathing suit. I wear it out to dinner. We were on vacation. Remember? I wore a linen shirt every day.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. Yes. And in fact, for that vacation, you purchased me two pairs of swimming trunks.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bathing suit. Whatever you call it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

And I'll say that, ladies, that if you purchase one for your man, be sure to get the short one. Get the short one. Tell them you're not an 80s surfer. You don't need down to your knees. Look great, look elevated, and save money. And by the way, Quince is not just about clothing. It's your destination. For elevated essentials across the home, kitchen,

[Rebecca Lavoy]

bedding, and beyond, elevate your summer wardrobe, go to quince.com crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, sure. High.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime so, Lara, Kevin hinted at this, but you would think for all the jobs in the world, a union would not just be necessary for coal miners, but would actually advocate for them. Because that job seems scary as hell, does it not?

[Laura Bricker]

It's literally one of the more terrifying. Like, I don't know about you guys, but I have certain things that I think about as, like, these are like, nightmares of how I would die.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Caves.

[Laura Bricker]

Like. Like, yeah, like falling through the ice and being trapped under the ice. But being trapped in a mine and, like, having, you know, no light, having a fire, you basically, you know, being stuck there and not getting out. And that's like one of the most terrifying things. And then when you think about everything that these miners are exposed to and just the level, I mean, this is a grueling, grueling job. And, you know, it's. It's one of things. I can't even imagine being a family member of somebody that's working in a mine. Anytime there was something on the news, you know, in recent, you know, and you see a mine collapse, you're like, who's looking out for these people? And so to hear that story in the beginning where they're talking about trying to get it out and they're like lowering the bucket down, but it's like 20ft too far away. I'm like, this is like my worst nightmare. And then when you hear that, you know, the union really isn't doing what they should be doing, you know, that is, that is a good jumping off point for like, okay, this is a story of, you know, injustice and why people aren't being protected. And these are people that are really putting their lives on the line every day going down there.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's almost like the union for this industry does everything. Like, it could not be worse. First of all, they're protecting an industry that is killing the environment for the sake of keeping so called good jobs. Then the so called good jobs don't actually pay particularly well, have shit pensions, and everyone has to live in these goddamn company towns. From the Hunger Games, the Suzanne Collins and all sort of sounds like District 5, District 19. Like, it's just, it's wildly dystopian, but there's all these talking points that make people feel like they are dependent at the same time, that they're basically, essentially keeping them indentured. Like it's, it's completely wild. One of the interesting things to me, Toby, was that, you know, when we hear about Ralph Nader's involvement, the way that he used to find causes was he would look through trade journals and he read like 10 years of trade journals for mining and found no mention of black lung. And he thought, huh, something's probably off here. He joins the cause wholeheartedly and then sort of backs off right before murders happen. What did you think about his involvement and sort of the way that that is positioned here in terms of like, I mean, there's a bad guy and a good guy in this show, right?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I mean, there's a bad guy and a good guy. And Nader, he seems like sort of the mercurial guy who kind of shows up and helps get some stuff moving. And I think that's all he kind of saw himself as being like, that was his job, wasn't necessarily to see anything through, but to sort of lend his name to things.

[Narrator/Actor]

You know, it's one thing that they were abandoned by the law. It's one thing they were abandoned by the legislatures. It's one thing they were abandoned by the media, but to be abandoned by their own union.

[Toby Ball]

But for the people in the movement who are Something like what happened to Ralph Nader? He just, like, dropped us, you know, I think it feels like a betrayal. It also kind of puts things in a sort of time that I thought was pretty effective. I mean, it obviously happened, but it's like an interesting detail in that Ralph Nader is such a. Such a figure of that era when he's like, sort of finding these things about America, usually American products that are unsafe and calling huge public attention to it. Like, he's just this very well known. I mean, he's probably the best known ever sort of public advocate for these things. So for him to a. To hear, like, how he goes about these things, because I would have just assumed that people would be constantly coming up to him and being like, dude, we got this problem. Can you help us out? But in fact, he's just pouring through trade journals, which are not usually like sort of enjoyment reading.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I mean, it's sounds like the coal trade journals were just fluff pieces, though, Toby. Just like the cosmo of coal.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, Cosmo of coal.

[Toby Ball]

And I just want to, you know what you were saying before about like, company towns and stuff again, And I hate to kind of veer off from this, but I just.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, we expected this, Toby. We expected.

[Toby Ball]

I just watched Harlan county usa, and it's probably one of the top five or six documentaries I've ever seen, but it is showing what people. What the coal miner experience was back then. I mean, people you're talking about living in company towns and stuff. Not everybody, but a lot of the workers didn't have indoor plumbing or electricity in their houses. They were essentially living in log cabins. They show the working conditions that they're under and then the violence that they're confronted with. I think those podcasts and that documentary are really good companion pieces because you sort of see this larger story in the documentary, and then if you watch that, if you watch the film documentary, you see who the people actually are who are being either represented or not represented or fighting. And then you talk about how do things get violent and, you know, whatever. These are life and death things that they're sort of negotiating over and people who are just absolutely, like very, very, very poor, doing an incredibly unpleasant and dangerous job for almost nothing. And so, yeah, I mean, it becomes very much like a little guerrilla war.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah. Kevin, There is a crime at the center of this podcast.

[Dan Cummins]

Yep.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I mean, we all know that Jimmy Hoffa was disappeared, likely by the mob. According to Martin Scorsese, it was by Joe Pesci. And then he was rolled up in a rug and thrown into a bog. But there is a particularly brutal murder after a series of bungled attempts by this loser that Tony Boyle hired to kill Jock Jablonski. And he wasn't even in your head. He was just the rabble rouser. And he lost the election unfairly, but he did lose it. But it wasn't just Jock that was killed.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. So technically there are no spoilers in a historical podcast. But. But you know, because it's intimated right up front that Jablonski was assassinated. Right. And so because we open with this very suspenseful true crime scene, which is exactly. If you're writing a true crime book, that's exactly the scene you, you know, would be. The. The prologue would be chapter one. Right. But I gotta say, I was horrified to hear that the wife and the daughter were also murdered. Part of it is because the way Chip the son sort of talks about his sister and his mother, it gave to me no indication.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I agree.

[Kevin Flynn]

It was great that that was coming. There was no sort of wistful. He was very joyful about, like, the things that his sister did. He talks about her like, and maybe she's passed, but like this. She was fun and she wore the weird things. And so when it came to that, even as, like we're hearing the story of the assassins breaking in, I'm like, I wonder how the mother and the daughter got away. And they did it. I'm like, like, holy.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I killed the daughter first.

[Narrator/Actor]

Now all three tiptoed back up the stairs, pausing at the top. Daughter Charlotte's bedroom to the right, Jocks to the left. The clock ticked past midnight. It was time. Buddy whispered he'd go to Charlotte's room. He motioned to the other two to go on to Jocks.

[Kevin Flynn]

And do they kill the dog? I mean, it just.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

They were gonna kill the dog. And one of them was like, not

[Kevin Flynn]

the dog, not the dog.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

And I was like, no, no, I

[Kevin Flynn]

gotta draw the line fucking somewhere.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Okay, good points for you guys. I can't handle when a dog dies. We know that.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah, but still, it's kind of like I'm okay with murdering three people, but not obviously. No, not you anyway. It does. It doesn't still. It doesn't make them look better because they didn't kill the dog. They covered the track. Yeah, they do.

[Laura Bricker]

The whole thing was terrifying. The phone lines being cut, the tires being slashed, the, you know, nobody discovers this for it's. It's like something out of like you're like a horrible terrorizing Crime, like. And it's just like.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

It's like In Cold blood is what it's like.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah. And it really sets up just the level of corruption at the center of this union that they would do something so heinous.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Going back to the family for a second. We also got, I think, a really nice portrait of the family right before the murder happened. Like, finding out that Jock's wife is so, like, unbelievably accomplished. And it was gonna be like, you know, he's finally gonna get out. Cause the election didn't work, whatever. And she's gonna let her follow up on her career, have her writing sort of take center stage. No, no, absolutely not.

[Kevin Flynn]

And not insignificant for women in that era. No, not insignificant.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Right. And. Yeah, Lara. But, I mean, Tony Boyle is the guy behind all this. And he seems like a real good guy, right?

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, I'd want to have him over for Christmas dinner. I think what's interesting about him, though, is like, you know, you hear, obviously, he's. He's the. He's the villain here, but he's somebody. He's from an immigrant family. He worked in a coal mine from a young age. And so you're thinking he might, you know, know what it's like. And you're hoping, like, this is somebody that's going to. This is where I've been. I want to help the people. Where I've been, I want to help that. You know, he. As he rises through the ranks, but he gets close to the other union president. And it's like he. His corruption just starts to, you know, you start to see he's. He's getting caught up in the power of, you know, the. And the political control. He's. He's not looking at the people. And you can just see how this. It takes on like this. You're like, oh, this is. This is evil in a way that is. It's just disturbing again, because you're thinking, to me, I'm thinking of these coal miners as just such hardworking people, and he should know that. And, you know, you hear about this mine disaster where the people died, and you're thinking, okay, now he's gonna step in. And he doesn't step in the way that he should step in.

[Kevin Flynn]

Don't forget he has all those portraits of himself. And he named his daughter Tony.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, yes, Tony, Tony, Tony.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Laura Bricker]

It's like mirror, mirror on the wall. Who's the worst labor boss of them all?

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Toby, can you talk about how this. How Tony finally sort of gets his comeuppance because of Chip.

[Narrator/Actor]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

So, I mean, it's an interesting story in that Chip decides that the only way he's gonna get justice for his father, Jock, for that murder is by getting Tony out of being head of the union, because as long as he's head, he's protected. So he gets this like, sort of ragtag group of people, and there's four in particular. And, you know, it's just this interesting group. It's like this like, older woman who's a lawyer and this kid who volunteers out of college to be an intern, and then a guy who is almost a priest. And I can't remember who the other guy was, but. But yeah, they, you know, they get to work and doing sort of like this sort of boots on the ground organizing and going to these very, like. They start off by going to Harlan county, which is, you know, where. Where Tony's like, that's his base of power, basically. And they go there and are just like, realize they have to bring tough guys with guns basically to make this work because the potential for violence is so high. But they do this sort of traditional politicking, going district by district and then realizing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Playing the Hunger Games.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah. And then also realizing that there are going to be attempts made by the union to corrupt the election process, and they also have to fight that. So it's really kind of. It is sort of this underdog story. But then they win handily. I mean, they win by like a 2 to 1 margin. So they're able to convincingly make the case that, you know, the, the union, the head of the union isn't representing the miners interests. There's. There's really no way he can recover from that. And, and it's. It almost feels odd that it has come to that point because throughout. And maybe this is just the way the, The. The podcast is, but you keep seeing these things. It's like, like there's got to be some other arrangement that's going on if he's not going to condemn a mine for having a blast that kills dozens of people. And he's like, well, actually, they're not that bad. You know, their safety record's pretty. It's like, okay, clearly something is going on. Like, you're the union head. That is not the messaging that you should be putting out there.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Are you saying they voted against their own interests when they voted him in? Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Well, I don't think they didn't know. It seemed like in that situation that I. My sense is that people did not have like 100% information clarity. And I think there was also, you know, I think the way a lot of those things go is that there's, there's a, you know, a local union head who's telling them how to vote and you corrupt those guys and then, and then that trickles down. So you know, I wouldn't necessarily put it on the rank and file minor but that they're in a, in a system that makes it much, much easier to, for corrupt people to win. And that's how, that's why Chip like realize you gotta go, you gotta go to the bottom, right? You can't, you can't work through these, through the power structure. You have to work with the miners themselves and show them what's going on. And that's how you turn things around.

[Narrator/Actor]

Foreign

[Greta Johnson]

House of the Dragon is Back and so is the Official Podcast Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dan Cummins]

Do you love hair raising allegedly true stories about the paranormal? Then you should summon the podcast Scared to Death. It's the popular horror series with more than 60 million downloads to its name and is co hosted by me, Dan

[Lindsay]

Cummins and me Lindsay, co host and also Dan's wife. Each week on Scared to Death, we share bone chilling tales from old books and creepy corners of the web, and even some submitted by our listeners. All designed to make you want to sleep with the lights on.

[Dan Cummins]

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[Rebecca Lavoy]

All right, let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the podcast. Coal Survivor from Crooked Media and Campside Media, Laura Bricker. Thumbs up for thumbs down for Coal Survivor. Give it to us straight, Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

No, I'm so I'm going to give it to you straight. And this is what's hard here is that I really can't. I, I feel I need to give this a mild thumbs up, even a thumbs up. But it's not my kind of podcast. But this podcast was well researched, well reported, extremely thorough. If you like the type of podcast that Toby Ball likes, a historical podcast that digs into a particular period in American history and world history in a way that is like taking a college course, you will like this podcast. This isn't the type of true crime podcast that's specifically just like centered on like a murder and who done it. There is a murder in this podcast, but that goes to the larger story of this system that is, you know, the unions and the coal mines and how this happened. This is a big part of labor history. I didn't know all of this before. At the same time, for me, it was just super dense. And I think I would have liked to have learned this story. I think for me, in the way that I digest information, watching it in a documentary would have been the way that I was able to really follow the story. But overall, I mean, this is an extremely well done podcast. It's just for me, it wasn't my personal preference of style. So that's kind of a convoluted answer. I am a thumbs up, but it's not for me.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's very fair. I've done that before. I've done that with true crime stuff before. Toby Ball, thumbs up or thumbs down for Cole Survivor? Spoiler alert. Toby's gonna give it a thumbs up.

[Toby Ball]

It's a big Thumbs up. Because it is for me. This is like exactly the kind of podcast I like. And it's just the execution I thought was great. It's really well researched. The writing I think, think is really good in this to keep the. It feels propulsive, at least to me throughout. And I think it's an important thing now for the public to hear more about labor unions because we're headed towards a weird labor situation, people. It's coming down the pike very soon. Yeah. So I just, I don't know what else to say. As we were talking in the main thing, I was just kind of comparing it to some of my favorite stuff stuff. So it's right up there in my estimation with some of the top podcasts of this type that we've listened to. I would suggest, if you like this, to also watch the documentary Harlan County USA, which is often listed as one of the top 10 documentaries of all time, but is in part about some of the events in this podcast and in part about a. A minor strike in Kentucky. So anyway, huge thumbs up for me. I'm sure it'll be in the upper half of the top 10 list at the end of the year.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I'm a thumbs up. I didn't get a chance to say it in the, in the podcast, in the review portion of the podcast, but I really like this. This host, Nikolai, solid job. Very much reminds me, like you say, of Leon Nayfak. And I think this is really extra textual, but you get a real sense of him in this ad read. Yes, that.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I made a note on that.

[Kevin Flynn]

You know, just like really great. And again, that's extratextual. But like, it certainly didn't diminish my pleasure in this podcast. If Toby Ball had a G spot, this podcast would be fingering it.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Oh, look at that.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, there's a pull quote for you. Right. You can put that on the Mari side for you.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes, I'm sure that Campside and Crooked are gonna like put that right on.

[Laura Bricker]

It's a visual. Oh God.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's a visual if you want, but I gotta tell you, but in the end, this is really a love letter to the power of organized labor about how it works, when it works to improve lives. It doesn't shy away from corruption, from violence, from the dark side of organized labor, its historical roots, but it gives the dark so it can provide the light. But in a way it's solid. It's really interesting. If you're a fan of Fiasco and Slow Burn or Rip Current, then I think you really got to listen to Cole Survivor.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yeah, I'm giving it a thumbs up. It's interesting we said about the ads, Kevin. I'm thinking the same thing. First of all, I might buy that dental thing. I grind my teeth a lot, as,

[Kevin Flynn]

you know, use his promo code.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

But, you know, I actually think, like, some public radio stations should listen to this and decide if they feel worse about the journalism because he read an ad for a thing that helps you with your teeth.

[Kevin Flynn]

Stop being precious. Public radio.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Jesus Christ. Ridiculous. Yes, he's fine. He sounds great. He's a good host. I like the podcast. I'm giving it a thumbs up. I'm more a little toward Laura where this isn't my kind of show. It's hard for me to listen to eight hours of just solely men talking. It's really hard for me, especially when so many of the voices sound alike. I was. The signposting was great. I was able to follow along. But you know how men don't like to hear women talk all the time. Like, I sort of have the opposite where, like when I hear that's not a podcast. When I hear only men telling a story, man after man after man after man, I sort of like start to zone out. I don't mean to be reverse sexist, but that's how I feel about listening to this. But I thought it was good. I mean, the production is great, the storytelling is great. It could have been so much more boring. I mean, to be fair, this could have been really boring. It wasn't boring, but it also wasn't for me. And that's okay. I can still give it a thumbs up. I appreciated it. The history's great. I learned a lot. Was not easy to dance to, but I still give it a thumbs up. All right, Laura Bricker, that's gonna do it for us. But before we go, do we have a cat of the week this week?

[Laura Bricker]

This is an amazing thing that I saw in the news this week. A new species found after 25 year search is named after Sesame Street's Snuffleupagus. It's a fish in Australia, of course, that looks like Snuffalopagus. It's a new species of ghost pipefish and it has been discovered it uses camouflage to blend into coral reefs and seagrass meadows. And the Sesame Workshop approved naming this fish after Snuffleuphagus to celebrate the connection between science and imagination.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Aww.

[Laura Bricker]

It's Mr. Snuffalophagus under the sea.

[Kevin Flynn]

You have a problem with Snuffleupagus Rebecca.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

I do.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. The lesson is that adults won't believe you.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Yes. The lesson is that if you're adult child, if you say, I have a friend who's told me some stuff, adults are like, no, you don't.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, you don't.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

No, you don't. That's why they made him real.

[Kevin Flynn]

They brought him back. Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's why they made him Snuffy. Yes. That's why they had the adults finally see him.

[Laura Bricker]

This fish has been seen for a while, but only recently named. It was first spotted in 2001 in Papua New Guinea.

[Kevin Flynn]

No one believed them.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, no one believed. And now, you know, he said, it's something entirely new. New to science. And here it is. Look at this thing.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Wow. And of course, it's Australia. That's where all the weird animals live.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hey, if you want to see that, subscribe to our newsletter because we have the pet of the week. We have. Or Cat of the week. We got the post of the week. We got crime of the week. We got all the stuff of the week. Right.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

The newsletter.

[Greta Johnson]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Crimewriterson.com thanks, Laura Bricker for bringing us that photo of a pipe fish. A Snuffleuppa fish fish.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Laura Bricker. Folks want to reach out to you and send stories or their own personal animals to be Cat of the Week. How can they find you online?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me at Lara Bricker on Instagram and Blue Sky.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

Toby Ball. Folks want to reach out to you to commiserate about what Kevin said about your love for this podcast. How can they find you online?

[Toby Ball]

Tobyball603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm a Kevin P. Flint.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

You can find me everywhere, including X, including Instagram at Reb Lavoy. Follow the show everywhere at Crimewriters on Follow us on TikTok, follow us on Instagram, follow us everywhere. Get episodes early and ad free and everything else we make at [e-mail] partnersincrimemedia that is what keeps our show going. Our theme song was composed and performed by Ty Gibbons. I'm the editor and the EP is Kevin Flynn. This show was recorded in the Caitlin Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in a New Hampshire basement where we also have multiple very expensive oil paintings of ourselves as well as our own fleet of Cadillacs and chauffeurs. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.

[Laura Bricker]

Mine's got tropical fruit drink mix in it right now.

[Toby Ball]

Wait, your wine does no this is.

[Laura Bricker]

No, this is water.

[Toby Ball]

I thought you said take a drink of that wine. And you're like, I've got tropical. I'm like, that sounds up.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's 10:00am in the morning.

[Laura Bricker]

10:00am no, I've got.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay, it's 10:15 somewhere.

[Rebecca Lavoy]

That's right.

[Dan Cummins]

Do you love hair raising? Allegedly true stories about the paranormal? Then you should summon the podcast Scared to Death. It's the popular horror series with more than 60 million downloads to its name and is co hosted by me, Dan

[Lindsay]

Cummins and me, Lindsay, co host and also Dan's wife. Each week on Scared to Death, we share bone chilling tales from old books and creepy corners of the web and even some submitted by our listeners. All designed to make you want to sleep with the lights on.

[Dan Cummins]

Think you can handle the horror? Tune in to Scared to Death every Tuesday at the stroke of midnight to find out.