I'll Be Gone in The Dark

Summary

Crime Writers On…

Episode: “I'll Be Gone in the Dark”

Original Review Date: June 29, 2020 (Rebroadcast July 23, 2026)
Panelists: Rebecca Lavoie (Host), Kevin Flynn, Toby Ball, Lara Bricker
Episode Focus: HBO adaptation of Michelle McNamara’s I’ll Be Gone in the Dark, the Golden State Killer case, and armchair investigation.

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Episode Overview

This episode revisits the Crime Writers On panel's review of HBO’s adaptation of I’ll Be Gone in the Dark, Michelle McNamara’s landmark true crime book. The panel explores the docuseries’ narrative structure, its focus on Michelle as both author and investigator, the depiction of the Golden State Killer’s crimes, and the impact of McNamara’s work—both on the case and the wider true crime landscape. Panelists issue warnings on the disturbing nature of the crimes and discuss the challenges and triumphs of translating true crime literature to screen.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Unique Terror of the Golden State Killer (02:44–06:57)

• Crimes characterized by home invasion, stalking, and terrorizing victims well before the attacks.
  • Rebecca describes reading the book:
    “The Golden State Killer is hands down, like, the crimes committed by this guy are the very, very scariest version of these kinds of crimes you could possibly imagine. … He would, like, take things from one room and put them in another room. He would, like, disconnect electrical. … It was terrifying. I remember calling Kevin and being like, Kevin, we're getting an alarm system on our house.” (05:00)
• Lara’s hesitation to engage with the case:
  “This particular case is just, it's so random and it's so violent. … I'd see people that would like, read the book or listen to the book and they'd be like, I can't sleep at night now. And I'm like, I don't know if I can go there.” (04:27)

The Show's Narrative Focus: Michelle McNamara as a Central Figure (06:58–10:51)

• Toby highlights that the story’s real center is not the criminal but the pursuit:
  “The only thing that's interesting, beyond how brutal things are, … is that they can't catch him. That's why I think the decision to focus a lot on Michelle is a good decision.” (06:58)
• The panel agrees the filmmakers’ portrayal of Michelle can be heavy-handed, especially early on:
  • Kevin: “They keep telling us … instead of letting us discover that ourselves along the way. … The first half hour of this six part story about a serial killer has to do with people telling us how wonderful she is … instead of letting us discover that ourselves.” (09:05)
  • Rebecca: “Show, don't tell. And there was a lot of telling right off the front … I love Patton Oswalt. I don't know if we had to see all of his routines, you know, talking about how wonderful his wife is.” (10:52)

Portrayal of Michelle’s Investigative Process (11:17–16:08)

• Authenticity in journalism and source cultivation:
  • Lara: “She did what I think any good journalist, investigative reporter does … you kind of trade information, … eventually they're going to start to give you a little nugget of information.” (12:41)
  • Highlighted scene with a citizen detective and the emotional moment of gaining access to police files:
    “‘I can't believe I'm doing this.’ ‘She was like the gatekeeper to a whole nother part of this story, and that took some time.’” (14:11–14:16)
• Effective use of Michelle’s own materials:
  • Toby: “I think the stuff that they have of hers is used pretty effectively. … Do I need to hear Patton Oswalt … talking about how his wife is too good for him? I'm not sure what that added because you get more of a sense of their relationship just through these texts that he sends her where he's being really supportive.” (16:08–17:47)

The Personal Cost: Michelle’s Mental Health & Death (18:20–23:39)

• Panel discusses the interplay between deadline stress, dark subject matter, and drug use leading up to Michelle’s death.
  • Rebecca: “She died of an accidental overdose of a combination of drugs … we see in her text messages here that she was using them to sort of stay on task and to sort of stay present and all that stuff. You do sort of get more hints about kind of the dread of what's going to happen to her in this than I was expecting.” (18:21)
• Toby warns against oversimplifying the cause of her death:
  “If it falls into this, ‘She went into such dark places that this is the result,’ … that seems to me to be such a shallow read and sort of discounts the actual deal with these drugs.” (22:49–23:12)
• Lara agrees the documentary is “fairly forthcoming about her mental decline as the research into this book gets even deeper.” (21:29–21:39)

Armchair Detectives & Legacy (23:39–24:08; 33:18–33:46)

• The show spotlights citizen sleuths’ crucial roles:
  • Rebecca ties the Bear Brook and Golden State Killer cases together by their communities of online detectives and novel investigation techniques. (24:07–24:08)
  • On the enduring significance: “There are not a lot of cases where regular people, AKA so called citizen sleuths, get together and it turns out to be an enterprise that you can look back on and say, wow, like they really knew what they were doing.” (33:39)

Challenges of True Crime Adaptation & Pacing (25:00–32:28)

• Rebecca and Toby discuss the pacing issues and the “in your face” focus on Michelle, likely because she died before publication.
  • Toby: “It's less than the sum of its parts in some ways. And I don't know if it has to do with pacing and the fact that I just wasn't feeling much narrative momentum at times.” (28:52)
  • Rebecca: “If this had happened, if she had finished this book and published this book and this book had been made into a documentary, … the in-your-face-ness of the Michelle McNamara stuff would not have been the way it is.” (30:53–31:31)
  • On adapting books: “It just seems that it's been a real challenge to bring to the screen some of the better works of true crime from the past decade.” –Kevin (29:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rebecca (on the crimes):
  “He is stalking these people for months beforehand, going into their homes … It's freaking terrifying.” (05:00)
• Kevin (on Michelle’s portrayal):
  “It just came off like too much of a valentine for what the subject matter is.” (10:24)
• Toby (on docuseries’ structure):
  “The story is really in trying to figure out who he is. And that's where Michelle comes in.” (07:42)
• Lara (on armchair detectives):
  “She was like the gatekeeper to a whole nother part of this story, and that took some time.” (14:16)
• Rebecca (on support in relationships):
  “That is the kind of support that like, most marriages don't have. And it just felt so wonderful to…” (18:17)
• On pacing and adaptation:
  • “They are sort of drawing out these Michelle lines, like fatter and deeper than they need to be.” –Rebecca (32:28)

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Segment Timestamps

• 01:04–02:11 – Intro to the episode and brief background on the book and documentary.
• 02:12–06:57 – Overview of the Golden State Killer’s crimes and Michelle McNamara’s obsession.
• 06:58–10:51 – Discussion of narrative choices and Michelle as a focal point.
• 11:17–16:08 – Deep dive into Michelle’s investigation methods and forging trust.
• 16:08–18:20 – The integration of Michelle’s personal materials into the documentary; relationship dynamic with Patton Oswalt.
• 18:20–23:39 – The pressures of research and writing, Michelle’s death, and challenges of covering it.
• 23:39–24:08 – The impact of online detectives and techniques developed.
• 28:09–33:46 – Final review summaries, adaptation challenges, and the doc’s legacy.

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Thumbs Up/Down Review Summaries

• Lara Bricker (28:09): Thumbs up (with warning on intensity and emotional heaviness).
• Toby Ball (28:52): Thumbs up, though he finds the pacing off and the sum “less than its parts.”
• Kevin Flynn (29:42): Thumbs up, after mixed feelings during initial viewing.
• Rebecca Lavoie (30:53): Thumbs up, noting adaptation quirks and a preference for more understated storytelling.

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The panel finds HBO’s adaptation gripping, albeit emotionally challenging, and credits the series for shining a spotlight on the human side of criminal investigation—namely, Michelle McNamara’s passion and obsession. They caution, however, about the documentary’s overemphasis on Michelle’s character, sometimes at the expense of narrative flow. The emotional cost of true crime research—and its impact on the investigator—is sensitively considered, as is the story’s ultimate celebration of collective, citizen-driven justice.

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For First-Time Listeners

Whether or not you’ve read the book or seen the docuseries, this episode provides a thoughtful breakdown of I’ll Be Gone in the Dark’s significance—both as a true crime milestone and as a case study in the emotional costs and rewards of the genre. The hosts’ personal connections, investigative insight, and first-hand experiences writing crime themselves enrich the discussion and offer a nuanced perspective on both the book and its adaptation.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

To get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia

[A]

I'm Rebecca Lavoy, and this is crime writers on. Crime writers on is the original true crime review podcast that digs into true crime, pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, it was the biggest true crime book of the decade and and played a role in the capture of the Golden State killer. We'll revisit our discussion of the HBO adaptation of I'll be Gone in the Dark. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist, and host of these Are Their Stories podcast. My husband and love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

[B]

Hello, Rebecca.

[A]

So, Kevin, what are we gonna hear in today's CWO classic Rewind.

[B]

Okay, we're gonna go back to the days of lockdown and our review of the HBO adaptation of Michelle McNamara's true crime book I'll be Gone in the Dark. And our discussion was on June 29, 2020.

[A]

Wow. Well, that's an oldie but a goody, Kevin. I remember reading the book. I remember watching the doc, and I can't wait to hear us talk about it.

[B]

All right, let's do it.

[C]

We were awakened by a voice and a bright light. It was a real sense of evil in the house.

[A]

He made me tie up my husband.

[D]

He ordered her to put dishes on

[A]

my back and say, if I hear these dishes fall down, I'm Gonna kill your family. It was one of the scariest and least remembered crime sprees in California. Blogger Michelle McNamara became fascinated with the tale of a suspect first known as the east area rapist, who she dubbed the Golden State Killer.

[B]

Michelle looked at it from the hopeful, putting puzzles together, trying to make sense of violence.

[A]

I was in search of a man who was attacking women and girls throughout Northern California. And the great. The tragedy of this case to me is that it's not better known. HBO's six part adaptation of McNamara's book, I'll be Gone in the Dark pulls together the narratives of the criminals. Many victims, the cops frustrated by the cold case, and the army of armchair detectives dabbling into a five decade unsolved mystery. The Irvine Police Department investigating an apparent homicide.

[B]

He's called the Golden State Killer.

[D]

This case is huge.

[B]

Michelle would actually go to the crime scene and walk in the case.

[D]

Geographic connections, DNA profiles, genealogy websites.

[A]

The first time she called me, I

[D]

thought, hm, she knows her stuff. So I started telling her things about my investigation.

[A]

But at the heart of the documentary is McNamara, who died before completing her manuscript. Just as the book, filled with details of horrific crimes, included passages of McNamara's own life, the documentary leans heavily on her story to explain the journey to publication and the arrest of a suspect. Now, the first episode of I'll Be Gone in the Dark aired on Sunday, but HBO provided that with screeners for the first three episodes of I'll Be Gone in the Dark. Although there's really no spoilers to give away, if you'd rather just get to our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews, go to the estimated time code in our show notes. Now, Laura, you wrote in your notes that you're probably the only one in the group who hasn't read the book. That is not true. Oh, I haven't read it. Kevin has not read the book either. Yeah, but you were a little bit afraid to delve into this story. Why is that?

[C]

I was because, I mean, we watch a lot of crime shows, we listen to a lot of crime podcasts. I've been involved in the crime world, but this particular case is just, it's so random and it's so violent. And when you know that detail of the case and then you also know the mental health impact that it had on Michelle McNamara. And then I'd see people that would like, read the book or listen to the book and they'd be like, I can't sleep at night now. And I'm like, I don't know if I can go There. So I've put off reading this book kind of because of that.

[A]

I will tell you, I read this book when I was on vacation with my two sons and Kevin was at home. Remember, I took them to Mexico last year and I read it in the paper copy because we had gotten a galley copy. And I will tell you, Laura Bricker, the Golden State Killer is hands down, like, the crimes committed by this guy are the very, very scariest version of these kinds of crimes you could possibly imagine. I heard a noise, but at 15 years old, you always hear noises in your house when your parents aren't home. So I didn't think much of it. I stopped. I do remember stopping and listening and didn't hear anything else. So I continued to play. It wasn't very much longer, maybe a couple minutes, that I felt a presence next to me and I looked up and then I felt a knife at my throat. Like, it's not just the sort of waking up in the middle of the night with a flashlight in your face and then, you know, you get raped and your husband has to, like, lie there with dishes on his back and maybe you get murdered. It is literally, he is stalking these people for months beforehand, going into their homes. He would, like, take things from one room and put them in another room. He would, like, disconnect electrical. He would like, basically be in your house before the crime so many times. Yeah, it's freaking terrifying. I remember calling Kevin and being like, kevin, we're getting an alarm system on our house. It was terrifying. Toby, what do you think about just this scariness? I mean, I think that's part of the reason why this case is so fascinating. Right? Because it's scary. This crime, this particular criminal, unlike even other serial killers, there's a scariness to him that is really kind of like new and different. Right.

[D]

Two things. One is. Yeah, I mean, the scariness of the crimes is about as scary as it gets, as far as I'm concerned. It's like these home invasion, absolutely brutal crimes. But I don't. Beyond that, it doesn't really seem like this whole case doesn't seem super interesting to me because you don't really know much about him. The only thing that's interesting, beyond how brutal things are, if that's something that captures your interest, is that they can't catch him. That's why I think the decision to focus a lot on Michelle is a good decision. Because I don't. Unless you're just gonna go through horrible crime after horrible crime after horrible crime. There's really not much to say about the guy.

[A]

Hmm.

[D]

The story is really in trying to figure out who he is. And that's where Michelle comes in. Is a good focal point. Not just her work, but for work that other people were doing at various

[A]

levels of effectiveness, I think in the book. And I don't wanna lean too heavily on the book. Cause that's not where viewing right now. But it does tie together these different threads of things that all the witnesses said. And there were things that were known about him. One is that he had a tiny penis, which like everybody really liked. That kept like every. Every single. You know, he'd be described as fat and he'd be described as thin, he'd be described as blonde, he'd be described as dark haired, he'd be described as puffy faced, he'd be described as, you know, whatever. But it was always different. But the one consistent thing was he always had like a tiny penis. Which is like a weird but also sort of schadenfreude detail of the whole thing. Which I just always found sort of interesting as being the notable thing about

[B]

this guy who committed pop psychologist might say, well, there's one of your.

[A]

But people literally saw him jumping over fences, they saw him riding bikes, they saw him running through neighborhoods. Not just people who were victimized by him. But getting back to the documentary, Kevin, there's one thing that I think we sort of share as a little bit of a knock on the way this is structured. Michelle McNamara is and was a talented, likable, lovely human being in every regard. But it's almost like the filmmakers don't think we're going to know that or believe it just by showing us. Right, right.

[B]

They keep telling us like, I thought the introduction of Michelle was pretty heavy handed. I saw her confidence growing. It was really exciting to have someone who was. You're in love with someone and they're doing something and you can see how excited and energized they are about it. And that makes you excited and energized. I'm amazed I'm still funny. I'm amazed I'm still funny because I'm in love. I'm in love. I'm in love. Yes, I am. The first half hour of this six part story about a serial killer has to do with people telling us how wonderful she is and what a great writer she was and how she changed all this other stuff instead of letting us discover that ourselves along the way.

[A]

Which we do.

[B]

Which we do.

[A]

Right. What's fascinating to me about this case is that is rich with so many clues. And it really seems to me that it's just time, energy and curiosity and that. And frankly, it should be solved. I mean, it just should be.

[B]

I gotta tell you, honestly, I became a little resentful because they really were pushing this hard. And I feel it actually took me till the third episode to kind of get over that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And start seeing Michelle as sort of herself and not as the way that everybody is portraying her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's not to say that she isn't. Wasn't a lovely person and isn't worthy of being revered. It just came off like too much of a valentine for what the subject matter is now. It's important because, I mean, I see that was one. From what I hear from everybody, that was one of the more important elements of her book was the biographical stuff.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But she doesn't talk about how wonderful she is in her own life.

[B]

No, this is true.

[A]

No, but she shows it in the book, and I think the documentary shows

[B]

it as opposed to telling.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Show, don't tell. And there was a lot of telling right off the front, like, I love Patton Oswald. I don't know if we had to see all of his routines, you know, talking about how wonderful his wife is by the time we get to the. Again, the third episode where we've had some time to live their lives, that we see them as both, I think, is who they are.

[A]

Lovely people.

[B]

Lovely people. And he's very supportive, and she is determined, but also very loving. I just wasn't crazy about the way that was handled.

[A]

I actually agree with you. And it's funny because I, you know, I loved the book, and I actually, you know, I know some of the people who worked on the book and who've worked on the case and the story, and I like, really like all of them. And it really is astonishing to me, like, her talent for. Not just for writing, but also for actual investigating. So much so. And we'll talk about this in a second, that all these cops were cooperating with her, which Yuna and I know is rare, and, like, really speaks to a specific kind of trust. Trust building.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So she does. In the book, she does show that she is a trustworthy, deep, kind of scarred and interesting and layered and sad person. And the documentary does show that. And so I actually would have cut that hole for. I almost felt like, you know, I know that Patton Oswalt has the rights to the book. It almost felt like Liz Garbus felt like, I want to set it up this way to make no mistake about it. But you can't make a mistake about it because she actually was all those things. I actually found that a little bit of a flaw, too. Laura, were you surprised? Surprised that Michelle McNamara, for all intents and purposes, an amateur investigator, an at home investigator who's scouring the Internet at night, who's writing a blog, you know, celebrity connections aside, was able to gain the trust of so many, not just cops, but witnesses like you and I both know, like, that's how almost impossible that is.

[C]

Well, I think that it didn't happen overnight. You know, when we see her establish a connection with Paul Holtz and, you know, he is investigating the case and she calls him and he, he says he was quite reticent to talk to her. But she did what I think any good journalist, investigative reporter does, that is. Is doing the job in a way to kind of nurture sources and cultivate sources. She just kept talking to him and she'd tell him, like, you kind of trade information, and that's one of the ways when you're a reporter and you're out working a beat, that you start to get information out of your sources. Like, you find out some information and you share them. They may not share information with you for a while, but you keep going back and sharing information with them and you have credible information, eventually they're going to start to give you a little nugget of information. And we saw that dynamic grow between her and. And this, this particular investigator, but also with the woman. You know, I loved the citizen detectives, the social worker.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, so what you're thinking is that I could sit there, you could sit there and go through them. I just can't let them leave. Right, right. How many pages are there all together? Like four or five thousand. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's big. Yeah, it's all the rates, right?

[C]

All 50 rates.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I should make a trade with you today. You let me take this today, and I'll let you take the cases today. And then we give them back. And then we give them back.

[C]

I would do that. I would do that.

[A]

But we have to give them back. I can't believe I'm doing this.

[C]

She was like the gatekeeper to a whole nother part of this story, and that took some time. So the way that she introduced herself to them was like, hey, I notice you on this forum and you seem to make good points and you sound, you know, reasonable. Basically, you don't sound crazy. But she said it in A more diplomatic way. And again, it started this sort of back and forth relationship to the point that then when they're meeting in person and the social worker has all of these police files, at first she's like, there's no way you should be seeing these police files. And she's like, you know what? I trust you. Take the files.

[A]

Toby. One of the things that was interesting to me about the way this is put together, obviously, you know, with Patton Oswald sort of being in it and part of it and, you know, the kind of, you know, her family is in it and part of it, they have access to a lot of Michelle's personal materials. They have access to her draft. They have access to her voicemails. Hi, Cliff. My name is Michelle McNamara. I am a crime writer in Los Angeles. I am doing a series on unsolved crimes. Hi, Kate. This is Michelle McNamara. Hey, it's Michelle.

[B]

Hi, Michelle.

[A]

Hi. They have access to footage that she filmed in these ride alongs, you know, with the social worker and in her own investigation. You know, there's access to video interviews that she did. Probably stuff that was just like on her own computer is able to sort of be like woven in and out of here to tell the story. And, you know, I know that you did the book on the deep dive and you've read the book. It really is. I was telling Kevin earlier, it's not dissimilar To Catch and Kill, which is, you know, Ronan Farrow's narrative, not just of the story, but his reporting of the story. It's really a lot like that, which is about her intersection with the story and how she did it and what she was doing and how it sort of wove into her life. Do you think the documentary makes good use of all of these other materials, like the text of her text messages and the voice memos and so forth?

[D]

Yeah, I think so. It's a little bit hard to picture watching this without having read the book because it's basically, it's the same story. And I was actually, while you guys were talking, I was thinking, like Kevin frequently says, you know, whose story is this? And this is clearly made to be Michelle's story, and you're kind of finding out about her through her investigation of this case. So, yeah, I mean, I do feel, and I agree with you guys, that it starts off pretty strong and not in a good way, but that you do get a good sense of her and sort of, I guess, the charisma she has, whether you feel like that's the right frame for the story, I think the stuff that they have of hers is used pretty effectively. Do I need to hear Patton Oswalt do little bits about how much he loves his wife and how his wife is too good for him? I'm not sure what that added because you get more of a sense of their relationship just through these texts that he sends her where he's being really supportive in these situations where it's probably quite frustrating that she's so single minded on this stuff. And, and I guess part of this comes from reading the book, but that she. To the exclusion of other things that you would expect your partner to be kind of around for. And they bring up the thing about Thanksgiving where they're having Thanksgiving dinner, but she's going to go up and work on her stuff and her friend cooks everything at her house. And that's not a one off. That's happening all the time. But Patton Oswalt is like, at least the examples they show is very encouraging and very supportive of those decisions and doing whatever he can to make that work.

[A]

I found that very moving, actually. There's this whole passage where he says, you know, I recognize in you some behaviors that I had when I was finishing my book. And you think he's gonna talk about, like, something else, something maybe not positive, but instead he's like, talking about the fact that she's letting herself be distracted by taking their daughter to soccer and making dinner. And he's like, I've got all of that covered. You just go finish your book. I found that I almost like burst into tears when I saw that. I'm like, that is the kind of support that like, most marriages don't have. And it just felt so wonderful to

[B]

thanks, Patton for ruining it.

[A]

I know that for us. But there is also this sense of dread because, you know, the one criticism I had around the narrative about Michelle McNamara when the book came out was, and I don't wanna, like, I obviously don't know all the facts, but I feel like the documentary is going there. You know, she died of an accidental overdose of a combination of drugs she was taking. And one of them was fentanyl, which we all know is like an incredibly deadly narcotic. She was also taking Adderall and Xanax and all this other stuff. She had this cocktail of drugs she was taking. And we see in her text messages here that she was using them to sort of stay on task and to sort of stay present and all that stuff. You do sort of get more hints about kind of the dread of what's going to happen to her in this than I was expecting.

[B]

I felt that at the end of episode three.

[A]

But to me, that's important because that is part of the story. And I do feel like after she died and when the book was finished by Paul Haynes, who's in the documentary, who. When you read the book, it's just. Lara, I'm just gonna spoil one thing for you about the book that's so extraordinary.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The parts that Michelle wrote, she talks about working with this online sleuth, and she only identifies him as the kid.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because she has no expectation that she's going to die, obviously. And the idea is that he's doing research and he's doing all this data work, and he makes all these maps and all this cool stuff, and then she dies and he ends up writing the rest of the book.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

And it's extraordinary because he sort of comes out of the gate and identifies himself. He's like, my name is Paul. You may know me as the kid. He didn't say that exactly, but it's an extraordinary moment, like in the book itself.

[B]

Yeah, good thing he could write.

[A]

But because of the way the book was brought to press, I really do feel like we didn't talk enough about it, how she died. And I really hope the documentary goes there. I'm sorry if that's too dark.

[B]

It seems to be signposting that it's important that it's going to deal with that.

[A]

To me, it's also something that, like, her death can tell a story in and of itself. That is important.

[B]

Well, if you want to make. You want to make this adaptation, Michelle's story, then you have to deal with that and deal with it honestly. Because, you know, what is it we always say when you do a piece of nonfiction, you either betray your subject or you betray the audience. And so are they going to betray Michelle by telling all of her secrets, or are they going to betray the audience by holding them back?

[C]

Well, I was going to say, I think that they are doing a good job foreshadowing that this is where we're going. I mean, you have Patton talking about when in the middle of the night, she wakes up and she's like, you know, such a light sleeper now, and she'll, like, run out of the house. Or she jumped up and she's on, like, high, high alert. And then there was another part where we're talking about who left the door unlocked in the house. And don't leave the door unlocked in the house. And then towards the Second half of that third episode, we were seeing a lot of signs that they were going down the road of being, I would say, fairly forthcoming about her mental decline as the research into this book gets even deeper than she was before. And I felt like that was exactly where this was going.

[A]

I mean, I honestly. I'll say it again, and I don't think there's anything shameful about the way Michelle McNamara died, but I think it's in a story that's important to tell.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Because those drugs are available, they are prescribed, and she was clearly coping with a lot in addition to being on deadline for a book, which all four of us have been. Right, Toby. The feeling of being on deadline for

[B]

a book, they are showing that as

[A]

opposed to telling exactly. Exactly. But, Toby, I mean, I think that one thing our listeners may not understand. I mean, they may understand how it would be easy to be depressed if your parents die and how it would be easy to be depressed about, you know, working on a book that's so dark and a subject matter so dark. But, like, I don't mean to, like, make light of it, but, like, the looming deadline of a publisher is also, like, a dreadful experience.

[D]

Had.

[A]

Toby, have you ever had that experience?

[D]

I can't say that I've ever been, like, going down to the minute, like, this idea that I have 54 hours and then I've got to have, like. I've never been in that situation.

[A]

We have. Right, Kevin?

[B]

Kevin. And I think I'm on my Facebook watch video right now. As a matter of fact, Kevin and

[A]

I have done that exact thing where we've booked a hotel room so we could finish. Remember, we did that twice.

[B]

Did that for me.

[A]

Yeah. Remember we went to New York once and holed up in my sister's apartment when she was away just so we could finish the stupid book and make the deadline.

[D]

My concern about where this is headed is if it falls into this. She went into such dark places that this is the result.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Because I think that that was kind of what happened with Heath Ledger when he played the Joker. And it's like he, you know, he accessed deep parts of a soul that no man. And it's like, that seems to me to be such a shallow read.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And sort of discounts the actual deal with these drugs, basically. I mean, it's powerful addictive drugs. So I. I would be disappointed if they went in that direction. I hope they don't. I think there's. The people who are involved probably have better sense than that.

[A]

Right.

[D]

But I do Think that's a temptation. You know, it kind of ties everything. It ties her. Her death to that she was investigating in a way that I don't think is genuine.

[C]

No.

[A]

And I also don't want to give the Golden State Killer credit for also killing Michelle McNamara. That's not what happened. Right. It's not. And she was clearly a wonderful and warm and smart person who took the role of armchair detective to a place from it being not important to a place where it could actually make a difference and be important. And she actually elevated the role of these actual armchair detectives. Doing good work. You know, I think about the Bear Brook armchair detectives. I mean, these cases are very tied together.

[B]

The same folks.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of the same people. Yeah, a lot of the same people are involved in both cases. Because of course, the Bear Brook case is the one that developed the one that at first used the technique that ended up solving this case. So, Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

[B]

Oh, our sponsor is Quince.

[A]

Kevin, I'm wearing a quince dress right now.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.

[B]

Oh, that's. I was.

[A]

European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

[B]

Oh, man. Oh, man.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

No, it's okay. It's okay. At this point though, Quince, please, you must name a whole clothing line after Rebecca because she has single handedly kept several people employed. Yes, I think there at Quint's.

[A]

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[B]

Bonjour High.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah. So do we.

[A]

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[C]

DSW.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

I think that our listeners will enjoy this documentary. I would give it a thumbs up with this sort of, you know, I don't want to call it trigger warning, but just sort of just a warning. This is, it's pretty intense in terms of this particular crime, this killer and the emotional impact that it has on Michelle as she is researching this case and really becomes totally immersed in it. So it's pretty heavy. It's well done. I loved the of use use of the computer where they showed like searching and, and typing and you know, they had, they had a good sort of B roll that they used while the person was narrating and while she was narrating in her own voice. So I would say thumbs up, but just heads up. You're gonna need to watch something kind of light when you're done with this.

[B]

Toby Ball.

[A]

What about you? Thumbs up or thumbs down for I'll Be Gone in the Dark on hbo.

[D]

My guess is that most people will probably like it more than I do. I. I give it a thumbs up and I wish I could put my finger on exactly what the issue is. For me, it's less than the sum of its parts in some ways. And I don't know if it has to do with pacing and the fact that I just wasn't feeling much narrative momentum at times. I think they do a pretty good job balancing the amount of time they spend with Michelle and the amount of time they spend on the actual crimes of the Golden State Killer. But it wasn't the kind of thing where when it was over, I was like, oh, I can't wait till the next one. So I give it a thumbs up. I think it's well done. I just kind of feel like there was something that was slightly off. And I think it's probably that sort of inconsistency of pacing with these two mainstreams that they have going in it.

[A]

What about you, Kevin?

[B]

I'm feeling better about this now that we've talked about it. That's what we've talked it out. Yeah. I mean, I went all three ways up, down, sideways while watching these episodes. While watching these episodes, like when it gets to the meat of the cases, it's where it really hits its stride. Unlike, you know, man in the Window, that podcast. This really achieves the horror of the crimes with some really thoughtful interviews with so many of the victims. And you get to see the different ways that they've sort of processed it and handled it. In general, I'm uneasy with stories in which it's portrayed that the most interesting thing about the crime is that someone is writing about it. You know, the nonfiction writers journeys, sometimes a really great way to tell a story like Catch and Kill all the President's Men. You kind of get to see the procedure behind it. That can be an interesting way to frame it so long as it doesn't get too self absorbed and self congratulatory. I haven't Read the book. So I'm not burdened by having read it, but it just seems that it's been a real challenge to bring to the screen some of the better works of true crime from the past decade that they've been really uneven. And the best stuff has been the little known stuff. Stuff. So I don't know about this one. I'm gonna give it a thumbs up just because I don't want to pan it.

[A]

Yep, I like it. I'm gonna give it a thumbs up. I think Toby's description is apt. And here's the difference between, say, a catch and kill and this documentary. Michelle McNamara died. If this had happened, if she had finished this book and published this book and this book had been made into a documentary, I guarantee you, having read Michelle McNamara's book, that the in your face Ness of the Michelle McNamara stuff would not have been the way it is. Probably the director would have said, you have to be in it, just like the publisher did. You have to be in it. Your journey is part of it. I don't.

[B]

I did have it. Be the publisher. Tell me, put your story in it. I watched uncomfortable with that either.

[A]

I mean, I actually kept thinking as I was watching this how deeply uncomfortable she would be.

[B]

Yeah. And we hear her say with this.

[A]

Because I actually. I read the book and she was uncomfortable being in the book. And she writes that in the book,

[B]

the drama of meeting a deadline is not equivalent to the drama of a prowler coming into race.

[A]

Exactly. And I do think one of the things that Toby talks about, about the pacing that's interesting is that, you know, so in the book, there are all these moments that are climactic or like cliffhangery.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the book, this is cliffhangery.

[B]

I like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A great example would be the cufflinks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the book, it's immediately dispelled. Like she finds the cufflinks. She thinks she's onto something. But what that's really about is her getting inroads with the cops. And she almost immediately finds out that they're not the right cufflinks in the book. But in the documentary, they actually make it a cliffhanger at the end of the episode. Like maybe she solves the case. She found the guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they are sort of drawing out these Michelle lines, like fatter and deeper than they need to be. I actually think a more understated telling of her part of the story. The text messages are incredibly affecting. Patton Oswalt's interactions with her are affecting the most affecting Part of it is the cop from the 1980s who we see in the moment and then we see in the first person in real time.

[B]

The one with like the giant Carol.

[A]

Oh, she's incredible. That stuff is affecting the victim. Stuff is affecting. And I do think the pacing doesn't match. I think that they should have done a better job sort of matching the pacing of the book. Michelle is part of it on its face. So you don't need to be so upfront with it. That being said, I really do like it. I loved the book. I love anything that comes from this book. So I'm gonna. You give it a thumbs up. Kevin, it didn't sound like you were gonna give that a thumbs up, so.

[B]

Yeah, but I did. I did, you know, I mean, I didn't think it was perfect. But I want to ask you, do you think, because, you know, we look at the book and all, you know, sort of all the lore around it, do you think, like, what went into the capture the Golden State Killer, like, is that still like something that people look to as like, like peak true crime?

[A]

I do think so. I mean, I think that there are not a lot of cases where regular people, AKA so called citizen sleuths, get together and it turns out to be an enterprise that you can look back on and say, wow, like they really knew what they were doing. And I think that I'll be gone in the dark. The book and then this doc about the book is a really good example of an unusual story that brought people together to do something that made a huge difference and to develop techniques that were still unique using. So, yeah, all right. This show was recorded in the Caitlyn Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also insert random clips of Creature from the Black Lagoon in our episodes. On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.

[C]

Foreign.

[B]

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