Love Trapped

Summary

Crime Writers On... – “Love Trapped”

Release Date: May 28, 2026
Panel: Rebecca Lavoie (Host), Kevin Flynn, Laura Bricker, Toby Ball
Theme: Reviewing the podcast "Love Trapped", which chronicles the bizarre true crime-adjacent saga of a Bachelor contestant embroiled in a paternity and legal scandal, and the online community’s obsession with the case.

---

Main Theme/Overview

In this episode, the panel reviews the podcast "Love Trapped" from Glass podcasts and iHeart, which tells the story of Laura Owens—a woman who falsely claimed pregnancy by Clayton Eckard, a former Bachelor star. The case snowballed into legal threats, social media sleuthing, restraining orders, and the spectacle of true crime fandom. The group discusses not just the lurid details, but the cultural context of internet fandom, mental health, and the responsibilities of podcast storytelling.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Story Summary: The Saga of Laura Owens and Clayton Eckard

• The podcast revisits Clayton Eckard’s post-Bachelor life being upended by Laura Owens, who claimed to be pregnant with his twins after a sexual encounter.
• Despite her claims being easily disproven (fake ultrasounds, evasive behaviors), Laura relentlessly pursued Clayton and others with accusations, legal filings, and public campaigns.
• Internet sleuths and the Bachelor fandom became a secondary engine of scrutiny and, eventually, vitriol.
  • “There are so many layers to this story… restraining orders, a criminal investigation, and also just the hope that at the end of it all, someone's going to be held accountable.” – [04:32], Unidentified Panelist

2. Portrayal of Laura Owens: Pathology or Villainy?

• Toby Ball objects to the podcast’s approach, critiquing the reveling in Laura’s downfall:
  • “We spend about 10 hours listening to basically a takedown of this woman who seems quite clearly mentally ill… You’re like nine and a half hours in before they bring that up.” – [05:54]
  • He found the approach “really, really troubling…sort of a wildly inappropriate way to cover this story.” – [08:16]
• The panel generally agrees on Laura’s pathological behavior, but Kevin and Laura underline the real-world impact on victims:
  • “There needs to be consequences…what she has done to them… the effects that her…unsupported claims have done to their lives…” – [10:00], Kevin Flynn

3. Internet Fandom and Social Media Vitriol

• The show explores, but perhaps insufficiently interrogates, how internet fandom and sleuthing amplify scandals like this.
• Toby criticizes the “mean girl” energy, noting the glee with which the podcast (and its referenced online communities) ridicules Laura:
  • “[The host is] so amused by it… It felt like mean girl stuff, quite honestly. And it certainly doesn't feel like journalism…” – [14:24], Toby Ball
• Rebecca connects this to broader issues with toxic online culture:
  • “There's a lot of law tubers that I've become really close with…but there is like a trashy neighborhood in this space where people think they are on a quest for justice and they are just toxic as fuck.” – [51:09]

4. Narrative Structure and Editorial Choices

• The podcast is long (12+ hour-long episodes plus multiple bonus episodes), and painfully repetitive.
  • “We listened to 12 episodes and they were like an hour long, 12 hours. Most had one, two, sometimes three bonus episodes…they had audio about the audio.” – [44:02], Laura Bricker
• Panelists are frustrated by the lack of editorial discipline:
  • “I feel like we were overserved… It needed a much stronger edit because… they could not distinguish what was important and what wasn't.” – [48:51], Kevin Flynn
  • Many details are rehashed, notably Clayton’s repeated recounting of the (somewhat absurd) sexual encounter:
    • “How many fucking times do we have to hear he got two blowjobs and she may have injected herself with a turkey baster or something in the bathroom…” – [36:44], Laura Bricker

5. Mental Health and Family Enabling

• The discussion turns to Laura’s family dynamic, noting how her parents enable her behavior—possibly out of codependency or sheer exasperation.
  • “Laura did what she wanted with full, unbridled support of her parents.” – [29:24], Laura Bricker
• The panel wishes the podcast had offered expert mental health perspectives rather than armchair diagnosis or simply rehashing her actions for dramatic effect.

6. Use of “Experts” and Online Bloggers as Sources

• The podcast relies on Bachelor bloggers and online sources for “investigative” insight, which Toby finds questionable:
  • “Are they supposed to be doing, like, investigations of women who claim they slept with Patrick Mahomes?… It doesn’t feel like journalism.” – [13:38], Toby Ball

7. Trial, Legal Reality, and Editorial Framing

• The legal proceedings (paternity, restraining orders, etc.) are discussed in excruciating detail. The panel notes this muddies rather than clarifies the show’s point, except when highlighting rare cases where restraining orders are misused.
  • “The trial is actually about just sort of officially clearing the Bachelor guy's name from being a possible…for possible paternity.” – [34:31], Toby Ball

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Editorial Slant:

  • “It just felt like it was punching down on somebody.” – [07:04], Toby Ball
  • “She’s maddening! But the reason is not that she’s a criminal mastermind. The reason is that she’s got mental health issues.” – [08:15], Laura Bricker

• On Social Media Mockery:

  • “People on social media came up with creative names for the…fake babies. Like the ‘Tonsil Twins’.” – [15:00], Toby Ball

• On the Length:

  • “This is the reason why bonus episodes were invented…You don’t have to jam it in.” – [39:55], Kevin Flynn

• On Courtroom Dynamics:

  • “Like during that…trial…he’s like, ‘I showed up and I had all these people on my side…she only had four.’ And I thought that said a lot. Like, yeah, it says that you're a celebrity and she isn't.” – [40:22], Toby Ball

• On Family Enabling:

  • “She’s living with A psychic terrorist…they have completely capitulated because that’s the only way they know how to exist and pretend to be a happy family.” – [31:16], Rebecca LaVoy

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Episode Set-up & Cast Introductions: [01:31 – 03:30]
• Case Summary & Intro to “Love Trapped”: [03:30 – 05:25]
• Discussion—Portrayal & Mental Health: [05:25 – 08:49]
• Social Media/Fandom Analysis: [13:38 – 16:00]
• Panelist Personal Experiences: [08:49 – 10:22], [51:09]
• Discussion – Family & Dysfunction: [28:02 – 34:09]
• Podcast Structure/Length Critique: [36:14 – 40:22]
• Thumbs Up/Down Reviews: [44:02 – 54:08]

---

Thumbs Up/Down Summary

• Laura Bricker: Thumbs sideways—interesting details, too long and repetitive; appeals mainly to super-fans.
• Toby Ball: Thumbs down—mean-spirited, editorially slanted, not sufficiently journalistic.
• Kevin Flynn: Mild thumbs up—juicy, held his interest, but needed aggressive editing.
• Rebecca LaVoy: Thumbs down—not for her, structure and tone disappointing, though she sees why others might love it.

---

Closing Notes

• The panel agrees “Love Trapped” is a fascinating story bogged down by excess and a lack of critical distance from the toxic fandom surrounding it.
• The podcast raises valuable questions about the responsibilities of crime storytellers covering mentally ill individuals at the center of public scandals and the role of online culture in real-world harm.
• Despite its sensational hook, “Love Trapped” divides the Crime Writers On... crew—not just about its subject, but about what makes for responsible and effective narrative true crime podcasting.

---

Notable Lighter Moment

• On Clintonesque Denials:

  • “We hear she only had oral sex, but twice. And then she went immediately in the bathroom. I’m like, every single time we had to hear about that.” – [36:44], Laura Bricker

• On Social Media Handles:

  • “I think I want to change my handle to Schnitzel Ninja.” – [56:25], Kevin Flynn

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This review episode covers the most shocking plot points of “Love Trapped” but goes further by critiquing podcasting ethics, storytelling, and the messy intersection of mental illness, social media, and sensational true crime coverage. The panel’s sharply divided assessment offers a nuanced road map for would-be listeners: if you love gory detail and internet drama, jump in; if you’re here for thoughtful, concise storytelling, you might want to skip it.

Transcript

[Hotels.com Advertiser]

Ever think a lyric says one thing and it's actually something totally different? See, not everything is what it Sounds like, but hotels.com it's exactly what it sounds like. Go to hotels.com to choose from hundreds of thousands of hotels instantly get up to 20% off with member prices and earn rewards on every stay. Sign up for free and book today. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.

[Muscle Milk Advertiser]

Everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle Milk Muscle Milk has a great tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors or added colors. It's high quality complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 2642 grams of protein for when you're stuck in meetings or need a post workout recovery. Available in chocolate, vanilla, cream, cookies and cream, and strawberries and cream. Try the new great tasting Muscle Milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle Milk Protein for All Ryan Reynolds

[Rebecca LaVoy]

here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. Do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] to get the crime

[Kevin Flynn]

Writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia I'm Rebecca LaVoy and

[Rebecca LaVoy]

this is Crime Writer. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts and on this episode, what started as a buzz worthy paternity suit against an unpopular reality star turned into a bizarre tale of manipulation and obsession. We'll review Love Trapped From Glass podcasts and I heart podcasts. Joining me to get that done and more is True Crime author, TV journalist and host. These are their stories. Podcast My husband and the love of my life, Kevin Flynn. Hello Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Hello Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin, I'm pregnant.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, you're not.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm not?

[Kevin Flynn]

Let me see the ultrasound. Unaltered, please.

[Laura Bricker]

I'll be the turkey baster.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Piper Green series of cozy mysteries. It's Laura Bricker. Hi Laura.

[Laura Bricker]

Hey Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And finally, all the way From Valencia, Spain, author of the City Trilogy, host of Rip Current, More like Ancient Fanlians. And the podcast, soon to be a major motion picture, Strange Arrivals, it's Toby Ball. Que pasa, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Hola, buenas.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, boy. Kevin.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

This is Thursday's program. I see something coming up next week that literally everyone I know is talking about.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, yeah?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What's coming up on next week's programs?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. So coming up on next week's shows, we're going to talk about on Monday, the Netflix buzzworthy show. It's called the Crash.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes, it's a documentary.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's a documentary. And then on Thursday, a week from today, we'll talk about the podcast, City of Lights.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

The Crash is one of those things that I see literally everyone talking about on our page. On the I think not page. I hear about it on podcasts and I don't know if we're going to like it, but apparently there's stuff to talk about about it. So I'm looking forward to at least seeing what everyone's talking about, as I was with this thing that we listened to. So should we start?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

Leading off that night, I was looking for a hookup 1000%. I assumed we both were on the same page because she was coming over at 8 o' clock at night on a Friday. We know why you're coming. You just sent me a photo of your ass.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Clayton Eckard was trying to bounce back from his disastrous appearance on the Bachelor when he hooked up with a potential real estate investor. Though he claimed they only had oral sex, Laura Owens said she was pregnant with his twins. What came next from her was an unrelenting mix of romantic overtures and legal threats. It pains me that you won't even consider giving me a chance. You've tried a lot of things, but you haven't tried me, who actually empathizes and has been in dark spots like you've been in and got. What if you just honestly and openly gave it a week to be open to something maybe eventually happening? With absolutely no expectations, Clayton became suspicious of Laura's evasive actions to prove her pregnancy was real. When the reality TV scandal hit the news, Internet sleuths began to pick apart her story. And information emerged that the former Bachelor was not the first man Laura had accused.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

There are so many layers to this story that you peel back. One couldn't get crazier. Oh, surprise, there's another layer. And it just keeps going. Restraining orders, a criminal investigation, and also just the hope that at the end of it all, someone's going to be held accountable.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

From Glass podcast and iheart podcast comes Love Trapped. Host Stephanie Young goes deep into all the twists and turns in the sensational case involving a reality TV celebrity, an unreliable accuser, and the online community obsessed with the story. The series explores whether Laura's unwavering insistence and her dubious claims are a long con or the product of a disturbed mind. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from Love Trapped, so if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Laura Owens is somebody that the Internet has, has really turned into this character of like pure villainous, evil doer kind of stuff. And this is a very long podcast talking about her story and her interactions with three men in particular. Although we hear that there's a fourth that we don't really get to know at all. It's long. What are your thoughts about the existence of this show?

[Toby Ball]

So I, you know, first of all, before I get into everything else, like, I'm not like here to say that Laura's behavior is okay and I think she definitely, she's not like the good guy in this thing. But my sense from just about the beginning especially how long is it, we spend about 10 hours listening to basically a takedown of this woman who seems quite clearly mentally ill. Like, I don't think there's any question about that, although they don't really get into that until the very, very end. You're like nine and a half hours in before they bring that up.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Since the very start of this production, my team and I have been talking about the larger impacts of sharing this kind of narrative. If just retelling it perpetuates this negative stereotype about women and how we can minimize that. In the end, this is what I've come to.

[Toby Ball]

And then they sort of congratulate themselves for their self restraint and then they're like, we haven't called her crazy yet. It's like, well, that, that's not really the way to go about it either.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

And then sort of reveling in this social media vitriol that that sort of directed her way as a part of this in all, you know, because she's, I mean, she's, she makes this claim like she's not a criminal mastermind. She makes a claim that is easily disproven. The end game. There's just no end game to it. I mean, it's not thought out to the point where she's going to actually gain anything. I mean, it's kind of a ridiculous ploy. And it's on this guy who's on the Bachelor. I mean, he's not. He's fine. Like, this guy is taking hip hop classes and, you know, he's got his guys real estate business going. He's going to. He wants to do an add on for his Airbnb BE thing where he goes and does the rose ceremony to people who. I mean, it's just the whole thing, it just felt. It just felt kind of ugly to me, quite honestly. I mean, it just felt like it was punching down on somebody. And really, it's not like you. She really deserves sympathy necessarily, but.

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, she's maddening, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

She's maddening. But the reason is not that she's a criminal mastermind. The reason is that she's got mental health issues. And the glee with which this podcast takes every detail, every piece of social media badmouthing her, I just found really, really troubling. You know, I assume we'll go into more details as we, as we go through this. I just found this to be sort of a wildly inappropriate way to cover this story.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's interesting, Toby, because I do think there's something to explore here whether or not you agree about a person with this kind of pathology existing in the age of social media. Because my experience with a person who I would say is strikingly similar to this, my secondhand experience being someone I know has been dealing with somebody like this, and they actually sort of come into my world too. Cause I make a podcast with Mel and now they've created a fake account where they're targeting Mel. It's a whole thing is that when you have somebody with a pathology like this, the existence of that kind of media gives them an outlet to basically advertise what they're doing to the world. And it's almost like, what do you do with that when someone is basically marketing their own nuttiness to everybody, even though whatever empathy you might have is really kind of like, to me degraded by the fact that no one in their life probably understands that they're on the Internet doing this. So, like, what are you supposed to do? I don't know, Lara. It's complicated because that's the one she's weaponizing. But, yeah, the one thing the podcast doesn't try to do is talk about like the. The culture around this in a critical way.

[Laura Bricker]

Right. And I think she's. She's Weaponizing the court system.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

And, and, and I understand she's mentally ill, but on some level there needs to be a remedy when somebody is doing something like this because she's really attacking in a way that, that can't be stopped. Yeah. It's easily disproven, but she doesn't stop. So at, at what point is there some sort of, is there something in place to put some checks and balances on this?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah. So Laura, as soon as you heard she was a horse person, did you know she was going to be off the rails?

[Laura Bricker]

Horse people are always crazy.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What's up with horse people? What is up with that?

[Laura Bricker]

It's just something about horse people. It's like cat people. And especially when she was like off at the horse show and she's like bankrupt and I'm like, do you have any idea how much those horses cost in those Hunter jumper shows? She is not bankrupt.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Kevin Flynn]

Laura knows.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, yeah, Laura knows.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. And I, Laura, I agree with you. There needs to be consequences. And Toby's not wrong that maybe our main victim here is not as sympathetic or as, you know, like I said, he's probably gonna be fine. But remember, he's not the only victim here. Right. And when you hear about these other guys and what she has done to them and continue, you know, the effects that her we'll say unsupported claims have done to their lives is very supported claims.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's so generous.

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, I'm using legal parlance. Right. You know, the court system doesn't like saying it's false, it's a lie. They like to say it's unsupported.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You know, Laura Owens is gonna write us a 10 page email after.

[Kevin Flynn]

Fine, whatever, you know, whatever, go for it. It doesn't matter.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Look at this picture of this ultrasound that I found on Etsy. This is not an unsupported claim.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, that's fine. You know, okay, whatever, here's the deal. That there ought to be consequences. And I'll tell you as somebody who, you know, may or may not have taken part in civil proceedings where somebody's claim is so overtly unsupported that you feel like you're the one losing your fucking mind.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Then, you know there are stakes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Kevin Flynn]

I found this story to be really super juicy. I have other concerns about it. I, you know, but yeah, I mean, you're right. She, you know, he may not be the bachelor. And it's funny because apparently like going into most of the story, they're like, oh, this guy, this is the most hateable bachelor. So it might be somebody you want to fucking dunk on. But when you see what's really going on, you really get drawn into her doubling down and tripling down and quadrupling down on a story that ought to be pretty easily refuted, but because she won't, it ends up making for a, you know, a really interesting. A really interesting story.

[Toby Ball]

I just kind of want to clarify that. I. It's not, like, lack of sympathy for. It's really the coverage. Like, it's more. It's more the journalism around this. Around this show and what it's signaling, what it's taking seriously, what it's not taking seriously, how it's framing the story. I found objective. I feel bad for those guys. It's a shitty, shitty place to be, and she's the one who's responsible for it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I have a question for you, Toby, because I have sort of one foot in a world that I know is completely foreign to you. And that world is on prominent display in this podcast, which is the world of sort of, like, online bloggers who talk about very specific things being relied upon as, like, experts. In this show, I would contend if they're talking about something related to pop culture, there's no better expert. But what do you think about them talking about, like, the legal matters and using these people as sources for, you know, truth telling when it comes to digging up evidence and all that stuff? I'm curious to know your thoughts about that.

[Toby Ball]

It seems weird. I mean, it kind of felt as though, like, this is made by somebody who's in that community and takes these voices seriously and feels as though sort of the larger. Sort of what? Bachelor Nation, I think they kept calling it. What was it? What is it called? Reality Show Dave or something? I can't remember. Sideshow Bob?

[Laura Bricker]

Be Not Schnitzel Ninja.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Think about it, Toby. I would encourage you to think about it. Sort of, like fandom of stuff. Sports. You know, how, like, sports fandoms has, like, a name, like, you know, you know, like, what are the terrible towel people called? The Pittsburgh people. Yeah. Or whatever. And then there's also. Yeah, Steelers fans, but also, like, you know, the. The Chief's Kingdom or whatever. And then there's, like, radio shows about just that team. And there's, like, what. It's very similar to that.

[Toby Ball]

No, I. I get that, but. But are you going there? Are they supposed to be doing, like, investigations of women who, like, claim that they slept with Patrick Mahomes or something like that? That's not really. Like, I don't know of that happening. And then this whole, like, social, like, essentially weaponizing social media, which, again, beside, like, the actual reality of it, the way this covers it, is so amused by it. Like, she says things like, you know, oh, the people on social media came up with creative names for the. For the fake babies, like the tonsil twins and the babies and stuff. It's like, oh, yeah, that's super creative. That's the, you know, what a bunch of. It felt like mean girl stuff, quite honestly. And it certainly doesn't feel like journalism if you're just going to throw that stuff out there. As you were saying before, it seems like the interesting thing would have been, like, how looking at the media landscape or the social media landscape or whatever you want to call this and being like, okay, you start off with this guy who was hated by people in Bachelor Nation because, you know, he. He didn't follow the protocols of the Bachelor or whatever, the unwritten rules. And then suddenly he becomes this hero to all these people and everybody rallies to his side and stuff like that seems kind of interesting and. And. And all that, but sort of reveling and these, like, mean comments that people are making about her on social media.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

To me, it just left a bad taste. I'm like, how do you take the rest of this seriously if this is your attitude about, like, this sort of juvenile stuff that's going on?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. I mean, I think, Rebecca, you would get this, that there are, I think, parallels between this case and, like, the attention around the Karen Reid case, where you are.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Extended universe.

[Kevin Flynn]

The extended universe, right. And you've got people here who come in new to these stories, and they're curious and they, you know, they start to get intrigued. And there are people that are way down the rabbit hole, you know, knows every detail. Right. Knows where everybody went to school and have looked at the, you know, X rays and slash ultrasounds and everything like that.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What are you saying, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

So I'm saying that you can relate to that. Right? And so. And that happens in all sorts of cases. You know, I. I'm trying to. I'm wondering whether or not this is made for somebody like me who is new to the case and but finds a lot of it compelling or if it's made for this. We'll call them the super fans. And I don't know. I think. I don't, you know, I don't know if the super fans are gonna, you know, I'm sure they'll give this a thumbs up because you know, it tends

[Rebecca LaVoy]

to, they love it, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, they tend to enjoy the idea of, you know, the editorial slant or whatever, but I think also it being written by people who might be, I don't want to say super fans, but might be so deep in their own research that this is how you end up with a podcast that ends up being 12 episodes plus multiple bonus episodes. Because you just have fallen so deeply in love with everything that you have and you end up writing something that instead of making decisions about, like, what's important to include and what you can pare back and still tell an effective story, you know, ends up going, going by the wayside. Right. And you know, I think that, like, if you really want like deep, thoughtful coverage of something like say, the Karen Reid case, you join us on Patreon. Yes, right. At patreon.com partnersincrimemedia Rebecca and Mel tell it exactly how you should tell it when they do their exclusive podcast, Something's Off. If you want to see what a, you know, a crime cult actually is, you should watch your video or listen to the audio version here on, on Patreon. Other great exclusive content includes the crime writers on After Show, Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast, Married With Podcast, our advice podcast, and Laura Brickers, Leave it to Bricker, in which Laura Bricker solves mysteries, or at least mysteries to her in her quaint AF town of Exeter, New Hampshire. Now Toby Ball's Deep Divers are getting together. They recently talked about the book Chaos. And Toby, what's the name of the book that everybody should be reading now for the next episode?

[Toby Ball]

It's called the Other side of Prospect and it is by Nicholas Davidov.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Hmm.

[Kevin Flynn]

Is Prospect the name of the street? Is that.

[Toby Ball]

It is a. It's the name of a street in New Haven that served divides sort of, sort of two sort of class based neighborhoods.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Nice.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay. It's like the other side of the tracks but in suburbia because there's no trains in suburbia.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

There are trains in New Haven, though.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah. New Haven's pretty urban.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's pretty trainy, I think.

[Kevin Flynn]

Is it the northeastern down that goes up to Maine?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

They have Metro north in Connecticut.

[Kevin Flynn]

They've got what's the Boston to Washington in New York to that line, that Amtrak line?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't know, but that's not worth. We're not talking about Amtrak. We're talking about the Metro North.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay, whatever. I'm sorry, I'm sorry for bringing it up.

[Toby Ball]

Look, if you want to go to New York from New Hampshire the easiest way is to drive to New Haven, park in the parking garage, and then take the train down to Grand Central.

[Kevin Flynn]

Is this. Did you glean that from the book?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I think people do.

[Toby Ball]

That's the way I go down to New York.

[Laura Bricker]

I've heard him talk about that.

[eBay Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Amazing two hour train ride.

[Toby Ball]

Kick back, have a beer.

[Kevin Flynn]

A lot of reading. Lots of. Listen.

[Toby Ball]

Listen to the podcast you have to do for.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right. Listen to some. Listen to some of this. Whatever that's called that we listen to.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

Yeah.

[Rachel d'Amita]

Love traps.

[Toby Ball]

Love trapped.

[Kevin Flynn]

Love trapped.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Love trapped.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. Another way to support our show is to check out our Amazon storefront where you can see some of our favorite things. Rebecca, can you tell us what are this week's Amazon recommendations?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So I'll just recommend something that I did not buy for myself, but that somebody bought for me on Amazon, which is the Ninja Frozen Slushy Making Drink Machine.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Mmm.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's incredible.

[Kevin Flynn]

It's professional grade.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's professional grade. Does not use ice. You just put liquid in it, alcoholic or not, and it turns it into a delicious frozen slushy drink. Thank you very much to the person who sent it to me. I still don't know who you are, but I would love to find out.

[Kevin Flynn]

So, like, you could put alcohol in too, not just Kool Aid, right?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You know, we drink so many pina coladas.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I know. Jesus, Kevin, I did not have pina coladas.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes, you did. You talking about you also had mango, dad. Mango margaritas.

[Kevin Flynn]

I did no such thing. I had orange juice and vitamin C. Okay, but Toby Ball, you also have great recommendations from your listener. Inspired. Toby Ball's Deep Cut recommendations.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I. Actually, people probably don't know this, but between Christmas and New Year's, I became a great uncle. My nephew and his wife had a very, very cute baby who I haven't met yet because I'm in Spain and they live in the United States.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So it's your fault.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, so it's my fault. But this is going out to him. My. My grand nephew. We're starting off with Boogie Wipes. Gentle wet wipes for baby and kids face, hand, body and nose. Made with vitamin E, aloe, chamomile and natural saline. Fresh scents.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Name? Yeah, Boogie Wipe.

[Toby Ball]

Boogie Wipes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, just not for the crack.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Love it. Great name for product.

[Toby Ball]

And we'll follow that up with the Frida Baby, Eucalyptus Vapor Baby and Kids Bubble Bath.

[Kevin Flynn]

A vapor baby?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, it's a vapor baby and it's also a kids bubble bath.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's A jewel for babies.

[Toby Ball]

A body wash toddler and baby body wash. Dermatologically tested, tear free hypoallergenic safe 2. And then it doesn't say what it's safe for.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, Bonner.

[Kevin Flynn]

Now you can shop us first when you go to Amazon. Amazon.com shop crimewriters on. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yep.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Before we end this fine, fine business section, do we have any Patreon patron saints of the week this week?

[Kevin Flynn]

Our Patreon patron Saints are Sarah Cole and Jacqueline Bolio.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Bless you, Sarah and Jacqueline. And Jacqueline. I'm sorry if it's Bolio. We decided to go with Bolio was in a last minute decision there. Thank you so much for supporting the show on Patreon. It really is how we keep the show going. We are a mature show with a very niche audience and we rely on audience support to be able to make it. So you guys are a huge part of that. And if you feel like joining Jacqueline and Sarah and not being a freeloader, you can also join us on Patreon. We really, really appreciate your support there, but if you can't do it, I understand. It's fine. Just know that you could be Patreon patrons end of the week, one day if you do right, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

I love it when people sign up like Sarah and say, like, I have been a listener since 2017, 2018, and now I'm in a position to support you on Patreon. I love that.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Wonderful. All right, Kevin, does this end our business section?

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Let's go ahead and fade that music out.

[Ted Danson]

Hey, everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name. And we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts, you're always evolving.

[eBay Advertiser]

So sell some things that belong to your former self on ebay. Maybe you had a trinket obsessed phase, a leather jacket moment, or a year. You thought you'd learned to cook. Let some of those versions go. Selling on ebay is easy. Just photograph and list with millions of buyers the right things, find the right people. Suddenly you've got more space, some extra cash, and someone out there is thrilled to Find what you're selling. Find what you love. Sell what you don't on ebay.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Early birds always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings, $141. Select homes only.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So, Kevin, who's the sponsor of this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, we're sponsored by Quint.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Shut up.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, summer is the perfect time to rethink the clothes that you've been reaching for every day. Take all those clothes that you bought from Quince in the winter, all those nice sweaters, you put them to one side of the closet or in a different drawer and you bring out all of last year's linens. Get the new ones to add to it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca, what have you recently purchased Quints?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, you know, I love a linen shirt.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And I have a couple of Quint's linen shirts. The European linen, I love. The dark blue with the white stripes is my favorite one. I have a white one. I've got a pink one. I've got a solid blue one. They are the most versatile, cute shirts. I wear it over a bathing suit. I wear it out to dinner. We were on vacation, remember? I wear linen shirt every day.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, yes. And in fact, for that vacation, you purchased me two pairs of swimming trunks.

[Muscle Milk Advertiser]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bathing suit. Whatever you call it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

And I'll say that, ladies, that if you purchase one for your man, be sure to pick the short one. Get the short one. Tell them you're not an 80s surfer. You don't need it down to your knees. Look great, look elevated and save money. And by the way, quints is not just about clothing. It's your destination for elevated essentials across the home. Kitchen, bedding and beyond.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, sure. High.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime. All right, so, Lara.

[Laura Bricker]

Mm.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Let's take Toby's guilt trip off the table about how irresponsible this podcast is for a second, shall we? Yes. What do you think about a person who doesn't just lie, deflect, do all this stuff, but does it so publicly? Does it a video? Ted X Talk has a Medium blog, continues to go on social media. Is listening to and responding to the podcast in real time. For someone who says they just want to be left alone, that's not what they're doing. It's a strange pathology, right? Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

I wish we had gotten a little bit more into like they're like, we're not gonna diagnose her and she's given herself all these diagnoses. But I'm just, I was really curious about like what was, what was her background more so that there's something, I mean, I don't think this is an understood. Something is very off here. The level, I mean the, it's, it's like I've never heard anything like this. And to do the same thing over and over again. And then even when she's caught in lies, she just continues to lie on her own. And it's, it's, it's wild. So I felt like I wanted a little bit of, I was like, wouldn't, I would love to hear some professional analysis of like what is going on here and how do you deal with a person like that? Like, what is the course of action when you're dealing with somebody like that?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Laura Bricker]

That even when you're confronting them with written statements of their own writing that differ from what they're saying now, they still make up another story. I'm like, how do you even deal with this?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right. That's actually the angle that I am interested in is because people like this do exist and they exist in droves on the Internet. But what do you. Is not engaging the answer? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Is just being sympathetic and, you know, saying, I'm so sorry you're not doing well and then leaving them alone. The answer? No. I can tell you with experience that that is not the answer either. They will call your workplace and talk about you to your. And all this weird, bizarre stuff. But Kevin, there's one aspect of something that I want to ask you about Laura's parents. Okay. Oh yeah, we listen to you. We hear that well known radio host, we hear her mom. We hear. I think one of the more sympathetic characters in the podcast is this guy Michael, who actually dated her. They didn't just have a brief encounter, they actually dated for a long time. And the parents seemed deeply invested in them staying together, even as he was being kind of honest about the fact that he wanted out. Granted, part of that was because of a text he sent to the wrong person. But I kept thinking about that. We were just talking about the Twilight Zone, the movie, and that one segment where the kid was holding his family hostage, right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And, like, the family was all pretending to be like, no, he's awesome. He's great. I don't know. What do you think?

[Kevin Flynn]

It sort of coded as codependency, particularly between her and the mom.

[Laura Bricker]

She and her mom just spent all day, every day together and had this very strange relationship. Laura could do no wrong. Laura did what she wanted with full, unbridled support of her parents. You want a new horse, you get it. You want a new saddle, you get it. You want this, Just order it.

[Kevin Flynn]

But, you know, I mean, we can't know that. But, I mean, there is certainly. Certainly the fact that the parents are playing a role in the narrative. You know, at first I felt like, oh, this is too bad. He seems like very accomplished people, and they have a very troubled daughter. And, you know, they're probably looking for ways to support her, but they would. I was assuming that they would have one foot in reality.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Kevin Flynn]

And it just seems like they are either enabling something or that they. Or that they also believe some of these things. It's just hard to, like, be so committed to the thing. You know, the things that your kids say when they are obvious lies, or at the very least, not thinking, hey, this is the fourth time this has happened to you. Gotten pregnant by some guy who got really suspicious, and they were.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Maybe don't use a photo of me with my hand on your sister's stomach and pretend that it's you in court.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. So, you know, the fact that they were. You know, that they were in this and somehow an active participant really puzzled me, but it added some sort of depth to it. And you're like, well, where does she get support? Like, well, it's not there.

[Laura Bricker]

Right.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

But she's. Meanwhile, she's spending all their money, right? She's putting them in the middle of these legal cases. We hear that they're, like, going bankrupt. Do you think they'd be going bankrupt if this wasn't one of their kids? Like, I don't think they would.

[Kevin Flynn]

Probably not.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Laura Bricker]

So weren't you curious about the sister? Like, what's her story?

[Muscle Milk Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Cause she seems to be living outside of this little circle.

[Laura Bricker]

That's what I mean.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

She's probably thriving. I don't know. I felt honest. I felt very bad for these old people. I really did. And I'm like, even when I heard them on tape saying enabling things, I'm like, I know she's ill, but they're living with A psychic terrorist is what they're living with. And they have completely capitulated because that's the only way they know how to exist and pretend to be a happy family. Maybe that does make them happy, who knows? But there is this scene, Toby, that's kind of like weird and telling. And Laura has this incredible reaction when her. The police come to search her a place and like interview her and stuff in the very early morning. And she's so fixated on her parents and she's so fixated on the fact that it's 7:00am and she's screaming and it's histrionic break in or something. I'm concerned about my parents. You guys have your guns drawn right now?

[Kevin Flynn]

Our guns are not drawn. Nobody's pointing.

[Laura Bricker]

I can't tell.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Is there anybody pointing a gun at you? You know what I. Laura, do my parents know that somebody's here?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, we have officers talking with your parents right now.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's. It's a bizarre sort of scene and very troubling. What do you think, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, it is. And just in and of itself, it's troubling. Again, I had a hard time separating it from the way that the host was sort of inserting herself into this tape that you're listening to because, you know, it's really. It's this, you know, the cops are trying to like, calm her down and sort of fairly gently but firmly say, no, this is fine. Like, I'm sorry we're waking up your dad, but, you know, we've got our warrant and she's just going off. But instead of just kind of letting it play out, you know, the host keeps coming in and be like, you know, for the record, they're being very gentle with her right now.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Look like they're using excessive force. But Laura feels otherwise and she's not quiet about it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Please, you're hurting me.

[Kevin Flynn]

You are hurting. No, you weren't.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You were hurting me.

[Toby Ball]

For the record, they are acting with extreme, you know, extreme deference in this situation. Or her father is not in distress or she keeps like kind of putting these things in. And it's not like just observational. It's like, oh, these cops are super nice and she's just being a freak. Which may be what's happening. But the fact that for this entire series that's been her attitude towards everything. It's just like, you could be right, but I don't necessarily trust you to be giving me a sort of neutral observation about what's going on. And it just goes on and on and on. I don't know how long it was, but it was like, I don't know, seven to 10 minutes, probably. I mean, it just.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, Toby, it was the length of time for me to drive from the federal courthouse in Concord to Bagel Works in Concord, stand in line, order my bagel with extra cream cheese and salmon, wait for it to be ready, get that, fill my orange juice, put it in some ice and leave the store and get back in my car and drive away. How long do you think that was?

[Kevin Flynn]

Pretty standard time.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Toby Ball]

That's quite a long time. But that's how you get 12 episodes out of this. Out of this thing is that there's just a lot of stuff where it's like, whoa. Like there's this. This trial that they have and that they go into great detail about. And after a while, it's like, I've almost forgotten. What is this trial about? And the trial is actually about just sort of officially clearing the Bachelor guy's name from being a possible. For possible paternity.

[Kevin Flynn]

Like that.

[Toby Ball]

That's what's at stake here. And they're just. I mean, they spend like half an hour on it or something. It's like, I feel like you could just quickly just say, like, it was determined legally because it doesn't really add much Right. To anything.

[Laura Bricker]

You're aware that Planned Parenthood has no record of an ultrasound for you, correct?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Under my real name?

[Hotels.com Advertiser]

Yes.

[VRBO Advertiser]

I'm more.

[Laura Bricker]

And again, we've established you didn't provide our office with the name that you

[Rebecca LaVoy]

allegedly went to Planned Parents Parenthood under.

[Laura Bricker]

Correct.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Correct. You never attended an appointment with Planned Parenthood in this case?

[Laura Bricker]

Yes, I did.

[Toby Ball]

So anyway, I. I don't know. I don't have a broken record.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

No, no. The more interesting legal case, I think, is when Michael is trying to get rid of this restraining order that's ruining his life.

[Toby Ball]

Right.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah. That was really awful.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And learning that and learning that. How hard it can be. And granted, I'm not saying I don't believe in restraining order should exist, but this is like the rare case where it absolutely works against a person who didn't do anything. Like, there's this whole thing, this woman who handed her a note on a plane about whatever, I don't believe a fucking even tiny bit. I mean, this is a person who has fabricated, pretending to be somebody else.

[Kevin Flynn]

There was a lot of stuff on that napkin that must have been a big napkin.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes. And like. And the idea that, like.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

There's an email that says it's A real person or whatever. But I'm like, this is a person who clearly makes up email addresses and writes to people from them. That's a thing we know she does. Lara, the podcast is very repetitive. It does this thing, which makes me crazy, where you listen to episode I9, then you start episode 10, and it basically tells the story of episode nine again before I do it. Yes, it's very repetitive. And one of the things that's repetitive is Clayton's non sexual sex encounter, which was sexual, actually.

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, my God. Do we have to. How many fucking times do we have to hear he got two blowjobs and she may have injected herself with a turkey baster or something in the bathroom. She only had oral sex with him, but twice. And then she went immediately in the bathroom. I'm like, every single time we had to hear about that.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What did he do for her? That's what I wanted to know. He sounds like he sucks in bed.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

I'm like, so he went twice and she went, what?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Sounds like zero times.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, sorry.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He seems like the kind of person who would tell us if he also gave her pleasure in some way.

[Laura Bricker]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't feel like he'd keep that a secret, do you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, he told America on the Bachelor. Yeah, I probably would have, but I don't know.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He said relevant. Kevin, what do you think about that? What do you think of me?

[Kevin Flynn]

Like, they did jam a whole lot of stuff, so you would have thought that if that were, you know, they would have mentioned something like that. But what were you asking me, Rebecca,

[Rebecca LaVoy]

what do you think about the production of this podcast? The repetition, the length, like, all. Did you think it was repetitive and sort of poorly put together?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, I mean, I think I'm thinking about Glass podcasts formatically.

[eBay Advertiser]

You are?

[Kevin Flynn]

For a second. Yes. Because we've done a couple of these and I just feel like they always try to do, like, the things that we say are the best practices, and sometimes it clicks and sometimes it doesn't. I'm thinking like the Confronting OJ podcast with Kim Goldman and the Nancy Glass herself comes on. The two of them are. I forget who they were. They were interviewing somebody like OJ's manager or something like that there. It worked. Burden of Guilt was fine.

[Hotels.com Advertiser]

I.

[Kevin Flynn]

But, you know, for as much, for. For a lot of this podcast, in the front half of it, I thought it was doing a very good job at storytelling and doing things like signposting and whatnot. But. But when we ended up getting to things like the deposition and then the trial and then the police audio and then the bankruptcy case and then, oh, the bankruptcy that was following going to the, you know, the hearing and all sort of the back behind the scenes stuff there just was really too much and so more was more. And I felt, you know, again, we said that, I mean, not only is it just rare that we have like 12 episodes, but the episodes are also like 45, 50 minutes long, an hour

[Rebecca LaVoy]

long, an hour and 15.

[Kevin Flynn]

So it isn't like they're just stretching, right? They are just putting everything they possibly can. And a lot of it, yeah, it does get repetitious. And because I think the story is strong enough on its own, I was intrigued by it. I'm just as enraged when you hear her deny and deny and deny, but then we all see her deny and then deny and deny and deny and then may she call and then deny and deny was just sort of an abdication of the storyteller's role. And it needed a stronger edit. And I do praise the fact that this is the reason why bonus episodes were invented. Right? You've got too much stuff and it doesn't go in. These are like the footnotes for people or these for the people who are the super fans and they want to hear all of that deposition or whatever. This is the place for that, because you can skip them. But if you're really into it, then you can go into it and you don't have to jam it in. And then all of a sudden, now that series is 20 episodes long, right? When it could be told. It could be. It could have been told better. Shorter, right? It needed a stronger edit because this, I think, you know, everybody, I think, has landing different places on the actual story here and whether it's told well. I think the story itself is fascinating and of course. And I felt like I'm rooting for these guys because this was just, you know, like Lars says, needs to be accountability. When you're used, you're abusing the court system. You're affecting people's lives. But I think it could have been told much sharper.

[Toby Ball]

The only other thing I wanted, I would say, is there's a few times when Clayton will say things that just feel completely out to lunch about their relative fame, I guess, or what his fame is like. Like during that. During that ridiculous trial about whether he, like, officially, like, not the father of these kids who didn't existed or whatever. He's like, oh, I showed up and I had all these people on my side of the, you know, the court and she only had four. And I thought that said a lot. Like, yeah, it says that you're a celebrity and she isn't. Like, it's like, these aren't your close personal friends. These are people who are following you on social media.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Justice for Clayton.

[Laura Bricker]

People who.

[Toby Ball]

Who want to see it. And then later, he's like, you know, if this had just been a guy's movement, like, defending me and stuff, that'd be one thing. But I'm really happy that it was women. And that really shows that. I'm like, no, it shows you that your fans are women. Like, these are your fans. Like, it's. It's not. It's not this, like, women ganging up to, like, slut shame this woman. It's. These are people who are following you because you're on the Bachelor. They think you're hot or whatever. And again, it's just like this uncritical. There's, like, no comment about it. It's just like, sort of approving. Oh, yeah, he's. He clearly, you know, she's got nobody. He's got all these people. And it's just like an observation. It's like, do you not understand that there's a dynamic here? Like, are you just going to ignore it? Do you not care, like, what's going

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

on?

[VRBO Advertiser]

You know what they say. Early bird gets the ultimate vacation home. Book early and save over $120 with Robo, because early gets you closer to the action, whether it's waves lapping at the shore or snoozing in a hammock that overlooks, well, whatever you want it to. So you can all enjoy the payoff come summer with Vrbo's early booking deals. Rise and shine. Average savings, $141. Select homes only.

[eBay Advertiser]

People are always talking about selling on ebay. It's probably because we all have those things. The jacket from a very specific phase. The lamp that only worked in your last apartment. The pan you bought for the version of you that was definitely going to cook more. And selling on ebay is really easy. You basically just add a few photos, and suddenly the stuff that's just been sitting there is in front of millions of buyers who are excited to find it. Find what you love, sell what you don't on ebay.

[Toby Ball]

Mud, sand, snow.

[Unidentified Male Speaker]

The track.

[Toby Ball]

Different surfaces, same truth. Every ground is our proving ground. Ready, set, forged.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Ondeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, Ondeck's loans up to $400,000. Help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in [e-mail] depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, let's do we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the podcast Love Trapped. Laura Bricker, Thumbs up or thumbs down for Love Trapped.

[Laura Bricker]

So I'm gonna go thumbs sideways on this because I think there is an audience for this podcast in the current format and I think it's the audience that's probably already been following this case and wants every juicy detail. So we listened to 12 episodes and they were like an hour long, 12 hours. Most of those episodes had one, two, sometimes three bonus episodes. They had all the body worn camera audio, the court audio. They had audio about the audio. It was, it just went on and on. And, and here's the thing. I think that this is an interesting story. I think this is an interesting story because we don't typically think of men as being victims in that domestic violence and also in the court system in the way that we're seeing here. I think that's an interesting story to tell. I think there's an interesting story to tell about this woman, Laura, who's on the other side of this and what's going on with her. Unfortunately for me, because this is so long and there's a lot of parts that are very repetitive, I didn't really get that story. I got every single detail that I ever wanted to know that maybe I didn't want to know sometimes five times over and over again, which I was not the audience for. So I can't say thumbs down because they have a lot of information here. They've done a lot of work. The production quality is good, but for me it was just too much.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Toby Ball, Thumbs up or thumbs down for LoveTrekt.

[Toby Ball]

I really dislike this podcast. I'll start off by saying the story itself is kind of interesting and I think there are interesting things you could do with the story instead. This just seemed like in too much sort of like Mean Girl stuff. The edit, the side that the, the host, the I guess, journalist was on is so clear from the beginning. The commentary that she gives is so slanted and not contextualizing or, or sort of examining situations like even, I mean, I think you can feel strongly about, you know, who's to blame, who's the victim, all this kind of stuff, but also present a picture of it that is, even if it's not nuanced at least is like looking at the context in which this is taking place, what some of the questions are about what's happening, like, and even the things that would make, you know, the, you know, the victims of this, who are, whose side she's like so firmly on. Like just examine like what makes this so difficult. Instead it's just this like swore, it's just like non stop. It's just like all this, all this information, all this stuff with what felt to me like a finger on the scale and then quite a bit of just sort of mean spiritedness a lot in a way that didn't feel to me like very journalistic. It kind of felt like piling on and it seemed to be sort of more of a type of what of what you would find on social media rather than in a supposedly reported podcast. And I think the other thing that I had a hard time kind of wrapping my head around was that there seemed to be a lot of importance put on what the reaction of people in social media or within the sort of the bachelor sphere or whatever, what they felt. So there are times when she would sort of talk approvingly about how, you know, that didn't play well on social media or read sort of like Snide's social media comments, you know, kind of with glee, like, oh, comeuppance, you're never

[Rebecca LaVoy]

gonna believe what schnitzel Ninja had to say.

[Toby Ball]

I just. So I, I just, I kind of found. I, I really did. I, I had a really hard time listening to it. I found myself sympathizing with a bad person more than I ought to. Just because I felt like she wasn't, even though she is super, super problematic, is really making these people's lives horrible. That it just, it didn't seem as though this was a very fair portrayal of what was happening. So anyway, I really, really dislike this podcast and so I'm just a mild thumbs up now. I'm a thumbs down. Big thumbs down.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Sorry for making you listen to it, Toby. Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I'm a mild thumbs up. I get it. This story is juicy, it's compelling, it's intoxicating and I feel like we were overserved. I feel like there's a lot of good stuff here from the source material, a lot of good tape. But this really needed, what brought this down is this really needed a much stronger edit because right it's not only is it 12 episodes, they're 12 long episodes and bonus episodes. And it just sort of indicates that the editors could not distinguish what was important and what wasn't. And I think there are people that just love all the details. And I get it if you love the details. This is delicious. You're going to eat all of this up. You're going to want to hear virtually every question on the stand in this particular proceeding that she got backed up on. But, you know, it sounds like I'm. I'm putting this down. I just have. I do have some, you know, strong feelings about the length and the way that this was put together. However, was I drawn in? Yes. Do I have an opinion about these people? I absolutely do. And is it naturally frustrating to hear somebody just deny the plain truth over and over again? Does it make you want to go, what the actual fuck? Yeah, I was at what the actual fuck? Early on. You know, I can't disagree with the, you know, the negative things that people have said. But nonetheless, I found this, for lack of a better term, entertaining. So I have to say it's a thumbs up. It's a mild thumbs up, because I think they could have done a better job with sort of packaging this, but mild thumbs up nonetheless.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I respect it. Kevin, this is a really hard one for me as somebody who streams for six hours a week about the toxic online community, which involves people very much like Laura Owens. Like, we talk about stuff like this all the time on Something's off. Because the reason I talk about it is because to me, there actually is a story to tell that people maybe, if they're interested in, should understand about the culture, the online culture that feels like it's real life to some people. That way that. That drives people to behave the way that sort of journalism and investigation and social media and the online world kind of interact. I always said that the one huge story the Boston Globe missed on the Karen Reed case was the online misinformation campaign that continues to this day of people clearly hired by the people who are much more likely to have killed John o' Keefe than the one who definitely didn't. There's a whole world there that I find very fascinating. And I think there's a very good podcast to be made about that, and I think that there's a podcast to be made about that. While acknowledging the sensitivities of people who are drawn into this space. People who are drawn into this space have problems. This is a thing that I have noted again and Again and again and again, even as I'm in this space now. And there's a lot of positivity for me in this space. Like I've connected with people like Bob and Ali Mata, for instance. There's a lot of law tubers that I've become really close with, like lawyers who have really great channels. But there is like a trashy neighborhood in this space where people think they are on a quest for justice and they are just toxic as fuck. So the reason I have mixed feelings about it is because I think that somebody could very easily pull a 15 second clip from one of my shows and be like, you're being so hypocritical right now. You just talked about somebody like with a name like Sparkly Rabbit or whatever. That is a real name. And I'm not actually talking about you, Sparkly Rabbit, I'm just using your name as an example and you just said xyz. But like, that is the nature of these worlds. I do think that there's a great podcast to be made that uses this story to explore that. Why someone like Laura Owens, for instance, is pulled into this kind of online world. She's pulled into it, likely cause it sort of heightens her sense of importance and feeds into all the mental health stuff that's going on. I've seen this over and over and over again in the last two years and I do think there's something very interesting here. That being said, to me, this podcast started juicy and intriguing, as Kevin said, and then just got, as podcasts go, progressively more boring as it continued on. You know, it's like we have this sort of reckoning episode at the end, which is just too little too late. It's so dumb. The structure is all fucked up. It's just not. It's repetitive, it's not interesting after a while and. And there's a lot of questions that are just on their face right there that the host of this podcast doesn't even attempt to tackle. Even as you're learning about all this other stuff that if you're not a super fan, as Kevin said, you don't actually wanna know. So, yeah, I'm a thumbs down for this. For some of the reasons that Toby said, but not all. For some of the reasons that you said about structure, but not all. But I just didn't enjoy listening to it. Like, I was like, I do acknowledge there are people who will love this. I get it. It's not for me, even though that makes me seem like kind of a fucking hypocrite. So anyway, thumbs down for me for love Trapped. All right, that's gonna do it for us. But before we go, Laura Bricker, do we have a cat of the week this week?

[Laura Bricker]

So our cat of the week comes to us from our my brichter scale group, the rage walking true crime fun group on Facebook, Sara Lynn Jones and Sara Lynn said was trying to send me a DM on Instagram so actually came over here and sent it. Grace Jones, her dog is Pet of the Week.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Grace Jones.

[Laura Bricker]

Grace Jones I'm sorry, this is another dog that has died. Rebecca Grace Jones went on ahead last weekend and it's been a struggle without seeing her happy self every day. We found her when she was a puppy in Florida abandoned at a feed store. She went all over the country with me and traveled to 18 states and was the nanny dog to four boys over the past 15 and a half years. She loved hiking the ocean, muddy horse pasture ponds and going along when we rode our horses and loved playing goalie when any of the kids were practicing soccer. And there's a great picture of this dog with these kids in a Halloween costume and the dog is giving them such stink eye like oh my goodness gracious. So I love, I love the picture of the dog in the Halloween costumes and I'm sorry Sarah all right, Larbricker

[Rebecca LaVoy]

folks want to reach out to you and submit their animals to be. It could be any kind of animal. It could be alive. I prefer alive. It could also have passed along. It could be an animal from pop culture or for the news or it could just be your favorite cat. Laura Bricker Folks want to reach out to you and say, hey, I want this animal to be cat of the week. How can they find you on social media?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me Laura Bricker on Blue sky and Instagram.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Toby Ball? How can you be found?

[Toby Ball]

Obaugh603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm Kevin Pflint.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You can find me everywhere, including at where all the toxicity happens at Reb Lavoy. You can find the show everywhere at Crime Writers on including our incredible official Crime Writers on Facebook discussion group. Get everything we make at Patreon, including episodes that are early and ad [e-mail] partnersincrimemedia our theme song was composed and performed by Tyler Givens and the EP of this show is Kevin and the editor is me. This show was recorded in the Caitlin Rogers Project Studio, also known as Studio C, the Closet, our New Hampshire basement where we also host Mediocre podcasts with relatives and flip old horses for money. Laura Bricker did it. You know, she did.

[Kevin Flynn]

She did.

[Laura Bricker]

I did it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm with all the crime writers. Thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. That was great.

[Kevin Flynn]

I think I want to. I want to change my handle to Schnitzel Ninja.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Laura Bricker]

No, I wanted more information about how she. She got that name.

[Kevin Flynn]

I think she just picked it. Do you think she had a schnitzel?

[Laura Bricker]

Like, I want to know what the significance. I want to know what the significance was.

[Kevin Flynn]

Do you think there's a significance to the name Schnitzel Ninja?

[Laura Bricker]

Yes. I want to know what's. What's the backstory? Like, didn't you guys have any curiosity? I was like, what's the deal here?

[Kevin Flynn]

Is that the one thing this podcast didn't cover?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, last two. Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

Now I hit record.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Okay.

[Kevin Flynn]

And all of Toby's previous stuff.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm pregnant.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, Frank. Fuck off again by an octopus.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Partners in crime Media.

[Rachel d'Amita]

What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel d', Amita, here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Ooey. And ah.

[Hotels.com Advertiser]

Ever think a lyric says one thing and it's actually something totally different? See, not everything is what it Sounds like, but hotels.com it's exactly what it sounds like. Go to hotels.com to choose from. Hundreds of thousands of hotels instantly get up to 20% off with member prices and earn rewards on every stay. Sign up for free and book today. Hotels.com it's all in the name.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

You've likely heard about PDRN. Originating in Korean medical grade injectables, this ingredient supports skin rejuvenation and is often derived from salmon DNA. Medicaite's new XO PDRN Prismatic plus serum unlocks the power of non invasive vegan pdrn. Through advanced biotechnology, it's proven to boost skin's natural rejuvenation by 50%. Like the clinical treatments, it's inspired by Medicaite's XO PDRN Prismatic Plus Serum delivers full spectrum rejuvenation results to visibly improve skin health, tone, luminosity, firmness and volume while reducing the appearance of wrinkles. Visit Medicaid US, that's Medik and the number eight US to discover more, use code podcast20 to save 20% off your first order.