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OnlyFantasy
00:51:22
OnlyFans changed the economy of online sex work, but what has it revealed about the nature of human intimacy? We’ll talk about the Audible Original podcast “OnlyFantasy.”
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A
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie From Roof Repair to Emergency Plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com looking
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to scale your outcomes beyond search and social? Realize is Taboola's AI powered performance platform driving incremental growth by engaging high intent users across a global network of 600 million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account Today, go to realize.com podcast to
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get the crime writers on after show
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right now go to patreon.com partnersincrime media.
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I'm Rebecca Lavoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts and on this episode, OnlyFans disrupted the webcaming industry, providing a more direct connection between models and their subscribers. It's changed the economy of online sex work, but what has it revealed about the nature of human intimacy? We'll talk about the Audible original podcast Only fantasy. Joining me to get that done and more is True crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast. My husband and the love of my life, it's Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.
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C
Hello, Rebecca.
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D
Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Piper Green series of cozy mysteries, it's Laura Bricker. Hi, Laura.
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E
Hey, Rebecca.
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D
And finally, all the way from Valencia, Spain, author of a city trilogy of novels, host of Rip Current, More like Ancient Faliens. And the podcast soon to be a major motion picture, Strange Arrivals, Toby Ball. It's Que pasa, Toby.
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F
Hey, Rebecca.
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D
So, Kevin, this is Thursday's show.
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C
It is.
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D
What's coming up next week.
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C
Hey. So next week we're starting our summer schedule, so we have new episodes of Crime Writers on every Monday. And then on every Thursday, we're gonna have a classic rewind of some of the best, our best reviews or worse reviews and things that we want to go back and visit. So on Monday, we will be talking about the podcast from Serial Productions. It's the last 12 weeks.
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D
Oh, yeah.
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C
Followed by our rewind of the mysterious Mr. Episod.
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D
Okay.
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C
He's been in the news, hasn't he?
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D
A little bit.
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C
He's still in the news. I think so Epstein, am I saying that right?
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D
Yeah, I think that's right.
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C
And then on the next Monday, we will be talking about the Apple TV series. It's a comedy, it's a horror, It's a lot of fun. It's called Widow's Bay.
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D
Looking forward to that.
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C
Followed on Thursday by season one of Suspect Fun, one of Rebecca's favorites of all time.
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D
Like, literally my favorite true crime podcast of all time. Literally. Guys, can I just, like, tell you about this email I got? We don't have time to talk about it at length, but I do think it would be a good future discussion, maybe for our after show. I just got the wildest email. Here's the subject. Wrongful ex. Wrongful exonerations. When narrative overtakes evidence. Hello, I am Steve Scarborough, retired forensic scientist and author of the newly released book the Innocence Machine. The Innocence System Gone Haywire. If you were to have a guest appearance, I would like to propose a discussion on a topic no one is discussing. In the true crime and criminal justice communities, can efforts to correct wrongful convictions sometimes result in wrongful exonerations? Steve? No, thank you. Just go on the prosecutor's podcast. They love that shit. They think everything is innocence fraud. They think Anand Syed is guilty. They think Karen Reed is guilty. They think Everybody who is 100%, the guys who got off and like the someone else who did it and there's DNA, those guys are guilty. Everybody's guilty in their eyes. Except for what's his face from Bone Valley. Yeah, because they had Gilbert on and they were like, oh, how would it feel getting. I was like, what? Oh. Cause he's white. Like, why do you think he didn't do it? I don't know. That podcast. I hate those people so much. Anyway, those are the emails I'm getting now. I think we are. I think it signals a turn. Maybe I've been seeing a little more of this. This innocence fraud stuff. Now there's books. How long until we are forced to sort of like, have to review these innocence fraud things? Kevin, you think?
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C
I hope a long time.
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D
Yeah.
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C
But never, never. I'll do never. I'll do never.
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E
I'm with you on that.
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D
All right. Should we talk about the podcast we are here to talk about?
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C
Yeah, let's do that.
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D
All right, leading off, part of what
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was amazing about OnlyFans explosive growth was that for more than 20 years, the world of adult entertainment had been starved by the abundance of free online porn.
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With free porn available on the Internet, is this the porn apocalypse?
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How do you compete with free?
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The website OnlyFans democratized the world of webcamming. Allowing independent creators to make big money attracting their own subscribers for adult entertainment. But the nature of the forum changed anonymous online sex work to a more personalized service for both the models and their customers.
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E
I promise you, your favorite porn star is not about to call your name and step on a corn dog for you. So, like, yes, you can watch porn, but those porn stars that you watch will never know your name, will never speak to you. These OnlyFans girls are paid to acknowledge your existence.
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These intimate relationships spawned a new kind of business, one that goes beyond sexual. As those on both sides of the camera form parasocial connections, their interactions can feel more personal, leaving some vulnerable, some empowered, and some wanting intimacy that is more than skin deep.
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Because I'm also human and emotional and desire to hear things that they're very, you know, willing to say and not mean. So I was taken advantage of and do I feel like an idiot?
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B
Yes.
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D
The Audible original podcast Only Fantasy investigates how the multi billion dollar adult website has become not a financial lifeline for its models, but a marketplace for emotional support. Host Leon Nayfak and comedian and OnlyFans creator Gracie Kanan talk without judgment to creators, subscribers, and business people about the digital intimacy economy and whether its customers are paying for more than online sex. Spoiler alert. We're going to be talking about plot points from Only Fantasy. So if you want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated timecode in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So, Lara. Yes, I had, like, I felt like I met a brand new Leon Nayfock listening to this podcast. And his voice is the same, his general affect is the same, but sort of like the one about vaping. He brings himself into it and I feel like he took off his sport coat. What do you think? Do you think? We also have his co host, Gracie? What do you think about this hosting team?
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Yeah, and we also have his little sister in the first episode.
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Yeah, she's in the other one that we listened to as well.
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The vaping one.
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D
The vaping one, yes.
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Yeah, the bartender.
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I mean, my first, you know, just overall thing, this is like the most relaxed version of Leon that I think we've heard in a podcast. I think this is a very, you know, conversational, low key style of interviewing and interacting, you know, between the hosts and also the people that they're interviewing. And I think that that works because this topic has potential to like, people will be like, I'm uncomfortable talking about this, or there's shame around talking about this. Oh, you're Going to judge me around talking about this. So I think Leon coming in in this, really, to me, feeling more laid back approach, but also putting himself in their approach because like last week, Kevin's like, well, first he was vaping. Are we going to find out that Leon Neyfak has been on OnlyFans? Yes, we are.
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B
Yeah.
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With Sunny. And what is Sunny doing now?
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D
What was her name?
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C
Her name was Sunny. No last name as far as I knew at the time. But then we started working on this podcast together, Gracie. And I looked her up and I got her email address and her phone number and I called her Blast from the past.
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E
You know, I think the combination of him with Gracie really worked for me. And, you know, having her as the co host was a major plus because not only is she an Only Fans creator, but she's funny and she, you know, is a good person to talk with him. Like, their chemistry and the way that they interact and their banter really works for this podcast because there's times where, yeah, you could make this really serious. They make jokes. I mean, how can you not if you're in this, you know, you've got to make jokes. It's kind of like gallows humor if you work on an ambulance. But I think that combination and having, you know, Gracie kind of keeps it grounded. It doesn't become like an outsider. This is like the insider's analysis and the insider's sort of anthropology of OnlyFans.
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D
Yeah. What do you think, Toby, about the delivery and the hosting of this show?
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F
Yeah, well, I mean, I agree. You get more of Leon's personality. It seems more laid back. I mean, I think the whole show is just a little bit different. Like, you know, my expectation going into it was kind of all right, so we're going to learn about, like the guy who started Only Fans or the girl or the woman who started Only Fans and, like, how it started and how it was going to be one thing and then it grew to something else. And, you know, that's usually like, he usually gives these kind of definitive stories of whatever he's looking at, you know, you know, vaping. Like he was talking about how the first vape pen was made and, you know, how it. What was meant to do one thing. And then, you know, the creep until then became like a consumer product and all this stuff. So that's not really what this is about. This is about Leon being like, huh, I wonder what the deal with Only Fans is? And going on this kind of journey to get a sense of, like, at Least what, like, one part of it is. So it was a lot different than I was expecting, which, you know, isn't a criticism, but it. But it is sort of a different kind of podcast than what he normally does. And I. And I think it, you know, in some ways it's better and feels kind of more natural in. In getting to know his personality. To me, it didn't feel quite as like, sort of definitive as. As like, a lot of his podcasts do, where I walk away. I'm like, wow, now I've got a really good sense of this. Whereas this one kind of feels like you get a sense of like, maybe a corner of. Of only fans or like some sort of thematic of only fans. But it doesn't feel like you've got, like, the broad only fans universe, like, under control when this is over.
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C
Yeah, I. I agree. I mean, the origin story of OnlyFans is not part of this podcast where it often is in the. The other ones. And I do think, Lara, that, you know, Leon is charmingly uncomfortable in the sexualized environment. Right.
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D
Leon, I want to salute you for stopping the interview at this point and asking what a. Joi was very brave of you.
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I salute Belgraves for indulging me.
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Okay, so Joi stands for jerk off instructions. So that could be going fast, going slow.
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C
He doesn't know what these terms mean, but then he also kind of confesses rather sheepishly about wandering down a rabbit hole, finding, like, somebody online in the middle of the night and I wonder what she looks like in a bikini or whatever. You know, that, that. That kind of thing. It makes him a little vulnerable, but also shows him to be. Yeah, you know, who said took off his. His tweed jacket or whatever corduroy is. Corduroy Jackson, I mean, does not seem like, you know, the obvious Nay Falkian topic. This is. You find this at podcast feed as Think twice, which is the Michael Jackson one, and then Jerry Springer. Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, I mean, you put it in whatever feed you want. But, like, thematically, is it kind of the same?
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D
Yes.
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C
I don't know. But he still does the thing that he does best, which is to find those edge stories that make the larger story so interesting. And. Yeah. Does he, like, confess his problem with vaping at the end of the vape line? Yes. Does he come right out of the bat with his sister who's got an only fans? And I was like, ah, fuck, Leon Nay Fawk has a connection to all these stories that are gonna come out. So anyway, I Thought. I thought as far as, you know, Leon as a character in this, probably the most of him that we. That we've seen in any of these. And that was great. And Gracie, I mean, I think we should talk about her.
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D
She's, well, fantastic. I'll talk about her right now. Sometimes in stories like this, there's a second host who is there because the EP or editors determined, like, you shouldn't be out there telling the story by yourself because it would be embarrassing for us as a. To have you, white guy, tell the definitive story about this thing that is about women or is about a person
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of color like Jay Smooth and the Michael Jackson.
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D
Although Jay Smith was also a very good co host. Like, Leon has done a very good job, like, picking these people if he's the one picking them. Gracie is perfect for this. There's banter in this that's clearly scripted. It has to be. And it's almost undetectable that it's scripted. She's very funny, she's very spontaneous. She's very vulnerable. And she's. She tells a story without shame of any kind. And that's exactly what this requires. So you can see that, like, I have some that are like, hey, Gracie,
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I'm well, blah, blah, blah.
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D
And then we just have some, like, business things where it's like, yes, of course, Dog Ear Reverse would be great. And it's very, you know, like, I've been good. Those pictures are sexy. Blah, blah, blah. I actually disagree with you. I think this absolutely belongs in the Michael Jackson and Springer feed because these are series where Leon is covering moments in pop culture that shifted things in real life, right? So Michael Jackson had this big. He changed pop music. He changed our consumption of music. He changed what we expect in terms of the visual form of music. Right? Jerry Springer changed the discourse in media, period. He just did. And only fans. Is tech not a technology married with intimacy? It's changing the way people behave around relationships, around love, around what they need, around how they're spending their money. Like, it's a very interesting thesis thing. Important cup, pop culture moment. I'm gonna put my cards on the table. This is my favorite podcast Leon Neyfock has ever made. I absolutely was riveted by it. I loved it. I binged it. And very often when I binge his shows, there's a point in the middle where I feel like I'm doing homework, where I'm like, okay, this is the history episode.
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C
All right?
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D
This is the one Toby's gonna like. And I just gotta get through it and get to the juicy stuff again. But there was, like, there was enough here for me in terms of context, in terms of how it works, in terms of the way predatorial business people are involved, in terms of the reasons that people go on the site. The. And I just loved these hosts so much, and they could have taken me anywhere, and I would have gone with them. So I actually wrote to Leon after and told him this is my favorite one he ever made. Lara, what do you think this is telling us about technology and how it's sort of entering the brains of people when it comes to forming relationships?
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E
Yeah, I mean, I think this is where we're at. And I kept listening to this. I kept referring to this as a parasocial sexual relationship platform and loneliness platform. And, you know, I look at. My son, has met so many friends. I'm like, how do you meet that person? Oh, I just started following them on Instagram and they DM talked on dm. And I'm like, is that how we meet people now? It is. So there's a lot of that type of relationship is how people that are younger than us, I feel really old now, are meeting each other and technology in this way, especially when we hear about how this really took off during COVID Technology is the platform here for the loneliness factor. And, you know, and I think it goes both ways. You've got the loneliness of people that are going on that literally just want somebody to text them in the morning and at night to check on them to the people on the other side who are making the content, who, in some regards, you know, this is their social outlet and where they're deriving that feeling of connection from. And so, you know, I think in the context of, you know, that technology, you know, I'm like, okay, that's not how I would have done it at that age. But that is. That is where we are at. And I think the way they approach this, they're not like, oh, this is like a moral crisis. They're like, this is complicated. There's this emotional economy between the people that are out there creating the content and the people that are, you know, consuming the content. And it's more nuanced than just, like, people that are going online to look at porn. You know, you have the guy, like, watching movies with them. So it's not as straightforward as you think of, like, oh, yeah, people are going on onlyfans to look at porn. And I think that really came through here.
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D
Yes.
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E
As we listened to the different stories
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D
on both Sides the pay for play girlfriend experience. Yes.
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E
72 hours.
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D
Yeah. Kevin, there's a lot of very interesting characters in this and a lot of users, which I love that there were so many platforms users on there. What do you think about the first guy we met? Rick?
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C
Rick with the magic dick? Yes. He just, He's a skilled lover.
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F
He's got a magic brain too.
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C
Apparently he learned.
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E
Was he the one who learned from the old lady?
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F
Yeah.
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She says, I. I know that you're having sex with my daughter and I want you to know I love sex and I want my daughter to love it as much as I do. So I want you to be good at having sex with my daughter. And so she decided that she was going to be my, my teacher. Yes. He was the guy the, the girl.
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F
Yeah.
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D
He's not telling like a tale of a kid who was abused. He's telling it like the tale of his super proud.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. And like the person, like he's eventually gonna get scammed and we know that somebody in this episode in the series is gonna get scammed and it just happens to be. It happens to be him. But I think he also had to couch it with the fact that he's like so fantastic. Yeah. This older guy. But I don't know. I told you. What did you think of Rick?
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F
I mean, he's got an IQ of 178. He was taught at a young age the secrets of lovemaking by his girlfriend's mom. I don't know. It was a little hard to know what to make of him, but he sort of partnered with this guy Tyler, who seems to have a lot of sort of social anxiety issues and certainly has trouble making friends or certainly serious relationships with women. And they're kind of presented sort of together as people who are kind of duped into thinking they were having these actual sort of emotional relationships with onlyfans, you know, content creators, and then were sort of stunned to find out that that wasn't actually the case. That this was all sort of part of the, the fantasy play, I guess, would be the, the most optimistic version of it. I, you know, I was just really surprised that, you know, they weren't more prepared for that like, that they were able to so quickly. Like in Tyler, in some ways, not so much because it doesn't seem like he was particularly worldly and maybe hadn't had situations like that that he could compare it to. So it must have. It probably felt differently. But somebody like Rick who seems like they've lived more, had more experiences you know, he just is like, I don't even talk to anybody more. I don't trust anybody or whatever. I'm like, because you're on OnlyFans, and you thought that this model was in love with you, and it turned out that it was. She wasn't. That just seems like a wild overreaction to something that, like, you must have known that that was a possibility going in. And then maybe you got sucked into it. But it shouldn't be that surprising when it. When it turns out afterwards that it was just fantasy. Those are tough stories to hear, I think, particularly Tyler's. But the response to that is being like, now I don't trust people anymore. I don't have any friends. I don't go. Your issue, I don't think, is this meeting with this woman. On OnlyFans, it seems like you've got much broader mental health issues that probably need to be addressed, rather than blamed on this sort of online relationship that you invested a whole lot of money into. But that first day when you clicked on that person, you know, did you think that it was possible that you would have a relationship? I mean, just like, think back to how that process went. So anyway, I. You know, I'm not, like, unsympathetic to it, but it was. It's a strange story. And maybe just sort of points to, like, a blind spot in my kind of understanding how people work in those situations. I don't know. I was sort of more understanding of Tyler's situation than Rick's.
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D
One of the things I liked about the podcast was that I am a YouTuber now. And YouTube has taken so many practices from the OnlyFans economy, right? You can ask listeners directly for money. You have your wish list, just like you do on OnlyFans. And listeners can send you stuff. You have your, you know, your. You can pay to get rid of ads, all of that stuff. And you're talking directly to people, and they think they're interacting directly with you. Cause they're commenting in real time. But, Kevin, we aren't new to, like, that sort of economy, are we?
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C
No. Because the more I was listening to this, I was thinking about the undeniable parallels to Patreon.
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D
Are we in the business section?
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C
Yeah. Stop that music. Okay, hold on. All right, let me get this point out, and then we'll move into the very obvious transition. Because as an independent creator, going straight to the audience, cutting out the middleman, doing it at scale, it's all very much. I mean, we're doing the same thing. We're just not showing our boobs. Right. It's. Yeah. I mean, if you want to find out whether or not I have one testicle bigger than the other, like that guy, you know, what level level would that be? I can't speak for our subscribers, like what they get out of it. Whether they get a feeling like a meaningful connection with us, or they're satisfied that they're supporting the show, or they like the bargain they got, whatever it is. But the audience service business is definitely a part of it and the same thing. And that's why I get that. Right. And it can be rewarding, but it's also a lot of work, mentally and emotionally, because you are the product. Right?
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D
We are the product.
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E
We are the audience.
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D
Yes.
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C
Right. What I'm saying, we are the product. Or one who has an Onlyfans or a Patreon, they are the product. And so they have to maintain those relationships and those subscriptions in order to make money, because the audience contact is what's really important. Now let's resume that music.
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D
Okay.
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C
If you want to follow us on Patreon, we do keep our clothes on, unfortunately. Or maybe fortunately. I don't know so far. I gotta say, I'm wondering, Lara, do you not volunteer? Do not nobody volunteer. I did want to know if, for Leon, if it was strange knowing what his co worker looks like naked. Because I will say, toby Ball, I am looking at you and it hasn't been the same.
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F
Yeah.
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D
Oh, really?
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F
These are the bridges we have to pass.
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C
I know. I have seen Rebecca naked four or five times and it was very uncomfortable. This.
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A
She.
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F
Yeah. Did she have that one of those fake pregnancy bellies?
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C
It wasn't fake.
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F
Oh.
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E
Oh, my.
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C
No, she's not paying attention. She's done totally unplugged. If you join us at patreon.com partnersincrimedia, you'll get exclusive content at the leading off level. It includes the crime writers on After Show, Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast, Married With Podcast, Rebecca and Mel's Something's Off True Crime podcast. If you're a Brichter scaler, you get all that plus cool. Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker Podcast, in which Laura Bricker solves mysteries, or at least mysteries to her in her quaint AF town of Exeter, New Hampshire. If you come in at the let's do what we do level, you'll get all those things. Plus you'll get episodes of Crime Writers on early and ad free. And if you are a deep diver, you get all that exclusive content, including being an official sponsor of Toby Ball's Deep Dive book Club. On the next Deep Dive, Toby and his guests are talking about the book club Murderland, which just happens to be the least popular destination at Walt Disney World.
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D
Okay. Yeah.
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C
Some reason kids aren't going there.
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D
Yeah, it's worse than Tomorrowland. Apparently.
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C
Worse than Tomorrowland.
- [24:52]
F
The pit of lead dust.
- [24:54]
D
Yeah, Tomorrowland is pretty lame.
- [24:56]
C
The escalator to tomorrow, whatever it is. Yeah. We also have an Amazon storefront where you can see some of our favorite things. Rebecca, what are this week's Amazon recommendations?
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D
Well, Kevin, this week for me, it's my new phone case. This is my favorite kind of phone case. It's the kind with the ring mag thing that also flips down. So it's also a little stand and it's this beautiful color of like sage green. It's the SkylMW iPhone case. And for me, it's for my 16 Pro Max.
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C
Cool. Toby, can you tell us what are your listener inspired Toby Ball's Deep Cut recommendations.
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F
All right, we're starting off with sensible portions. Garden veggie snacks. And there's a little detail which sensible portions. Veggie straws, gluten free snack size, sea salt. One ounce pack of 24. One ounce is a sensible portion. That is wild.
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C
No, no, with a pack of 24, you can definitely take that challenge on.
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D
That's like the first week of your GLP1. That's a sensible snack, but otherwise you're not going to like that.
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C
No.
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F
Yeah, that's. That doesn't feel sensible. Or maybe you're supposed to eat all 24 of them at once. I don't know. Next up, we have the Romita 8 pack sandpaper block. 4 grits per pack. 60, 80, 120 and 220. Washable and reusable handmade sanding sponge. Drywall Sandpaper blocks for wooden. And then there's a word that starts with the.
- [26:22]
D
Starts with what?
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C
D. D. Drywall dick. Oh, my God. Rebecca, get your head out of the dowel.
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E
We're talking about the D this whole episode.
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D
It is your birthday.
- [26:33]
F
Yeah, we're not talking about the D.
- [26:35]
C
We're talking about talking about the v and the Bs. Ah, all of them.
- [26:41]
D
Yeah.
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C
Yeah. So you can shop us first@Amazon.com shop crimewriters on. We earn commissions on qualified purchases.
- [26:49]
D
Kevin, before we end this business section, do we have any Patreon Patron Saints of the week?
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C
This week our Patreon Patron Saints are Tara Vutkunski and Rebecca. Stephen.
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D
Oh, bless you, Tara and Rebecca. You got the sonorous Kevin voice. You got the sexy Kevin this week.
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C
This is the only fans voice.
- [27:08]
D
Thank you. It is. That's the strippers to the stage voice.
- [27:11]
C
Oh, yes. Now coming to the stage for your eyes only, gentlemen. Yes, it's Ginger.
- [27:17]
D
Yes. All right, Rebecca and Tara, I can't thank you enough for some supporting us on Patreon. We literally couldn't make this podcast without folks like you. Sure, you hear ads in the show, but they don't come close to giving us what it takes to make this show run. So thank you so much and we'll be here forever. As long as you are. So Kevin does. Thus end our business section.
- [27:36]
C
Thus ends the business section.
- [27:38]
D
Let's go ahead and fade that music out.
- [27:42]
A
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. For decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled people pros for the projects that matter. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com looking
- [27:58]
B
to scale your outcomes beyond search and social Realize is Taboola's AI powered performance platform driving incremental growth by engaging high intent users across a global network of 600 million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account Today, go to realize.com podcast. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo, the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier from CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.
- [28:54]
D
So I just have something I like to say about this podcast that I love. There's no episode that's like specifically uses the words quote male loneliness epidemic which are my three least favorite words like in the lexicon right now. And here's why I think everybody's lonely. I think that we have a loneliness epidemic, period. But I think women are doing the emotional labor that men have never learned to do. Which is why we've managed to stay connected, even though we're also very lonely, very isolated.
- [29:21]
C
We do talk about exactly that.
- [29:23]
D
I know, but they don't use those words.
- [29:24]
C
Oh, okay.
- [29:25]
D
And I really appreciate the fact that they don't use those words. Cause I'm sick of those words. It's an epidemic for everyone, and men aren't used to putting in the emotional labor to make and maintain relationships. And this site is doing that for them. And that's why I think they like it. And I think that's kind of where they go, especially in their interview with Jean, which we will talk about. I really appreciate that the podcast addresses the epidemic without feeling the need to explore, like, what people are labeling as the epidemic and all the stuff men are going through. And only because as a woman, I know that it is true for everybody. But men get more sympathy generally anyway. Lara, what do you think this podcast says about loneliness?
- [30:07]
E
I think that's kind of one of the overarching themes here, loneliness and our modern world. And I appreciate that they approach that. So, you know, it kind of talks about these, basically, the loneliness and how our emotional needs are being monetized because of that loneliness. And these subscribers who feel like they have genuine relationships with the creators. And, you know, then you also. It's. It's such an issue that there's professional chatters responding to all of the consumers that are seeking connection, that are reaching out to have some sort of contact with somebody. And, you know, I think that that really, the way that they approach this, I think was very thoughtfully done. They're not like, hey, what's wrong with all these people who are, like, going online to go look for social connection? It's like, why are so many people going to look for this social connection online? Like, what is happening here in the first place? It's more about, like, human behavior than, you know, shaming the people that are doing this. Because it's really. It's something that's happening. And I think, you know, I appreciate the way that that was approached without judgment of either side of both the fans and the creators. But it made me think about, like, what is this gonna be like 10 years down the road, having just watched something this last Valentine's Day on, like, CNN about virtual dates with AI People were going out with their AI tablet companions at restaurants, and I'm like, is this what we're headed? You know, I love actual real people, but is this is a bigger trend? This is a bigger issue in the world right now?
- [31:54]
D
It sure is.
- [31:55]
C
And we hear they want to make AI cam girls. It's nothing sacred. Yeah, no, it's nothing sacred. We already have so many deep fakes.
- [32:03]
D
Yes.
- [32:03]
C
God damn it.
- [32:04]
D
Can we talk about someone who isn't fake in this podcast? I wanna talk about Gene, Toby. Gene's interview to me is, like, kind of the heart of the podcast. He really comes clean about why he's going behind his wife's back and has this relationship on OnlyFans with our co host, by the way. They get him to come out to this Airbnb, which is in a fancy trailer park somewhere to talk to them, and he is so unbelievably honest and vulnerable. What did you think about that interview?
- [32:36]
F
Yeah, it's really interesting. Like, I don't know how they found it. I mean, well, they tell you how they found this guy, but the fact that this was a guy, they ended up, like, having come on to talk to them about being on the other side of the screen on the Only fan stuff. Yeah. I mean, he's remarkably introspective and, I think, insightful into sort of what the relationship is and what the relationship isn't for. For both of them.
- [33:06]
B
It's fun to see what she does because I just. I don't know. And part of me is enjoying that
- [33:12]
F
sort of chaotic unknown with her.
- [33:15]
C
You're invested in her journey.
- [33:17]
B
In her journey, yes, because I can't have the freedom to do those things, but she can.
- [33:22]
F
I feel so, like, maybe he could put himself, yourself out as like a counselor to people like Rick and Tyler to kind of talk to them about how you can extract from this relationship a lot of things that are important and important to you without thinking that you have some exclusive romantic relationship with this person that's going to be perhaps pursued outside of that particular setting. And in some ways, and this is, again, like, it felt a little bit to me, like, how many people do you think fit into Gene's model who are on OnlyFans, I guess was sort of the question I was left with. Well, there may be a lot, but I think there's also. I mean, she was. When Gracie was talking about. Well, you know, when I went to just having a free homepage and then. Then all these, like, lunatics are lining up and, like, saying all these abusive things to me. Like, there's also that aspect to it. Like, I don't. I mean, I'm just.
- [34:28]
D
I'm going off on they Can't All Be Wolves, Toby.
- [34:31]
F
What I know from this, I just sort of what I've heard here. So, again, it seems like, it's like an aspect of it is. Is combating the male loneliness epidemic, Rebecca.
- [34:45]
D
Great. Cross out the word male and you'll have nailed it.
- [34:50]
C
Loneliness is not a zero sum game, Rebecca.
- [34:53]
D
Yeah, loneliness is for everyone.
- [34:54]
F
And. But anyway, it just. It just seems like it, though. There's. There's different. There are people using only fans for different reasons. And I think this kind of focuses on, like, one set of those people, which I think is probably the more interesting set of people, rather than getting too wrapped up in the sort of misogyny and the Andrew Tateness of some of the stuff. Yeah, Gene was, like, remarkably eloquent, and I, you know, he was kind of the perfect end of this whole thing. And. And I think, again, it kind of displays why Gracie was so important to this whole thing, because it really is sort of her cathartic moment at the end is like, really the, like, the. The story. The story arc is sort of more about her than about Leon. And, you know, you go from, I guess, first sort of hearing that she's doing only fans in addition to this other stuff, and then when they go to Creators Inc. Or whatever it's called, and she's like, oh, my God, this is like Mecca. This is so awesome. And then at the end, you get this sort of more personal sort of hearing about what it's like from this guy who she's had this sort of only fans type relationship with for a while. I don't know. I thought that was really interesting.
- [36:12]
D
So one of the things, Kevin, that really stood out to me in the podcast was there is technology and also craven men like Bogdan sort of trying to really scale things up for people. So then when they get really popular, you get. You basically hire a service to manage your only fans for you and to respond to messages as the creator. And we actually heard from one of those people who used to work in that job, like messaging people. Right. So freaking great. But doesn't that make it. Isn't that like buying a box of cereal and you open it up and it's a box of Legos instead?
- [36:47]
C
I don't know. Is it. Are you gonna eat the Legos? I don't know.
- [36:50]
E
Take away.
- [36:51]
D
Because people are paying for the personal thing and they're getting something else. What did you think about that way of scaling up?
- [36:57]
C
Yeah, I mean, what makes it really effective is that like they said in the first couple of minutes, Leon poses the question, like, why would anyone pay for porn in 2026? Right. Not paying for porn.
- [37:08]
D
Right.
- [37:08]
C
That's not what they're getting. You're seeing beautiful women and you're having intimate moments with them, but you're also creating, like I said, this parasocial relationship. And that works because it's at scale. You can do that with a small group of people. Right? You can. You as the creator can give that time. You as the subscriber believe it. Right. There's an authentic nature to that. Because. Because you know that. Right. And someone else point out, like, no movie star is going to like or a porn star from Hollywood is going to say your name while they step on a corn dog in high heel shoes.
- [37:42]
D
Okay?
- [37:43]
C
So all this to say that the problem being is the bigger you get as a creator, the harder it is to maintain that authenticity and to make it intimate and in the personalization that people are really there for. And so you have this sort of cottage industry of support services and vendors around it to do things like.
- [38:06]
D
Same with YouTube, by the way.
- [38:08]
C
Sure, yeah.
- [38:09]
D
Mods and stuff.
- [38:10]
C
Exactly right. People to do that. And they're trying to find a way to explain how do you do that? How do you balance that where you have a small group of or a healthy group of subscribers that will allow you to sustain yourself. But then what is the tipping point where all of a sudden you can't service your subscribers in the way that. That they've come to not only appreciate, but the thing that sort of makes the thing magic is the connection here. And that's what it is. You're not just paying to watch a naked woman and step on a corn dog and hide. Step on a corn dog while you're there lathered up in Vaseline or whatever thing is your thing.
- [38:54]
D
That sounds very specific.
- [38:55]
C
I don't wanna yuck your yum, but I'm just saying it's next level. And that's what changed things about with OnlyFans.
- [39:04]
D
So one of the things I like about the show is that Gracie also has a story arc in the show. They sort of explore all these things and she talks about why she doesn't do them. And then at the end, very much like us. Cause we had early on opportunities to scale up. And I said no, because to me, the magic of the show was the four of us. I didn't want our social media to be bland. I didn't want our interactions with fans to be bland. I wanted our Facebook group to be a little more exclusive so we could only let in nice people and not just have rampant conversations about random true crime shit. Like, I feel the same way about my YouTube show, I feel like the more personal it is, the more valuable it is. But of course, we're leaving a lot of money on the table. And at the end, we find out that Gracie sort of has found this compromise where it seems like she's keeping it very personal, but she also has an assistant that's basically doing intake on the guys and categorizing them as wolves and dogs and below that. And so, you know, she seems to have found she's making a lot more money with just a little bit of help, which is interesting. But, Lara, you listen to this with your partner?
- [40:00]
E
Yes.
- [40:00]
D
And I'm curious to know if you guys had different perceptions of the platform and the people who are on it when you were listening.
- [40:06]
E
We absolutely did have different perceptions. And this is funny. We were driving around, we were, like, doing a hike this weekend, and Lance is like, turn on that OnlyFans podcast again. Oh, you've got homework that I want to listen to this week. And I was in the. Hey, you know what? Some of these women. Yeah. Are there for the money. And some of these women are there because, you know, they need money, but they're also like, hey, I'm not going to be a jerk. There's people that are lonely, and I'm going to be kind to people. And he was like, no way. They all are just there for the money.
- [40:36]
D
Even Gracie.
- [40:37]
E
Yeah, he was like, absolutely, like, in his lane of these. The, like, men that are going on there are just being taken advantage of. And I'm like, no. Like, there's some of these. And he's like, these stories, like, the women are telling, I don't buy into them. I'm like, I buy into some of them because some of them really felt, like, genuine to me.
- [40:58]
D
So we.
- [40:59]
E
We went from that to then. We were like, okay, because we've been having this big discussion. We're like, what are we gonna watch on, like, Netflix tonight? And there's. You can. You know how you can do codes for Netflix? I just learned about this. So we went into, like, the sex code, and we watched this pornhub documentary, and that was kind of like a interesting compliment to this story because it was. That was more like law enforcement based in terms of how pornhub, once it opened up to independent content creators that were not verified, it became like a clearinghouse for, like, child porn and illegal porn. And it was. But it was the same prior to that. They had many similar interviews with independent adult film stars that were talking about, hey, now, just like with OnlyFans, now we can set our own schedule, we can make our own money, we can be independent. So I appreciate all, but it was, it was interesting to have this different. And I'm like, is this just like a man versus woman difference, Lance, like you're saying, you know? And I'm like, no, I think, yeah, some of these women are in it for the money. When you hear about the content creator house where they're like, oh, look at this beautiful house where we can make videos. And some of them, you know, I, I did appreciate the lady that was like on the floor at the end of the day putting all this stuff on herself. And the one person on the, you know, tarp on the floor, the Marine's wife or whatever she was.
- [42:18]
C
And the scuba gear.
- [42:19]
E
Yeah. Do you have scuba gear? Oh, yeah, I have it right here. I'm like, of course you do.
- [42:30]
A
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrades, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years. So we know the difference between done and done well. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com looking
- [43:01]
B
to scale your outcomes beyond search and social? Realize is Taboola's AI powered performance platform driving incremental growth by engaging high intent users across a global network of 600 million daily active users on premium websites. Reach and convert your audience on premium websites and placements where your customers actually spend their time. For more information and to create your account Today, go to realize.com podcast.
- [43:26]
C
Monday AI agents took over my work
- [43:28]
E
and I absolutely love it.
- [43:30]
C
Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind. Now they live inside Monday.com so they see the full picture. My work, my team, the whole, whole company and I don't have to worry about the data. It's safe. Which means I'm free to focus on the big stuff. Knowing everything runs smoothly in the background, it's completely shifted the way we work. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday dot com.
- [43:57]
D
All right, let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know should they check out the podcast Only Fantasy from Audible Originals. It's the latest from our favorite podcaster, or one of them anyway. Leon Nafa. Laura Bricker. Thumbs up or thumbs down for only Fantasy?
- [44:09]
E
Yeah, this is a big thumbs up. This was super interesting. And this was not what I thought this podcast was gonna be. When I hear only fans, I'm thinking, okay, where is this going? OnlyFans. Only fantasy. And this was really, you know, about loneliness, about, you know, emotional connection between people, about how loneliness in our current world plays out on a parasocial sexual connection platform, which is what I continue to call this. It's like we have parasocial relationships here. We have parasocial sexual relationships. Some of them are more genuine than others. I think what was really what I appreciated about this is that all of this was approached without judgment, without shame, without being done in a way to have people feel like they didn't want to be their authentic selves. When they were interviewed, people were very comfortable talking because of the way the two hosts approached this and approached the people they were talking to. And we had a host who. I don't think this is a huge spoiler, actually works and actually has an OnlyFans page. So we had a really good window into not only that world, but what it's like to be in that world. I just. I thought this was just super interesting. And, you know, I think a lot of times we shy away from talking about sexuality and loneliness and technology, and it's assumed that this is all bad. And in this case, there was a lot more to the story than you might think. So thumbs up, Toby Ball.
- [45:41]
D
Thumbs up or thumbs down for only Fantasy?
- [45:44]
F
Yeah. So, you know, if you've listened to this show much, you know, I'm a big Leon Nayfak fan. This is a little bit different than his others. I think it's a little more personal. It's a little more, you know, look, he's sort of got a question that he's trying to answer. I mean, the question is basically, what's the deal with OnlyFans? But. But it's. It's. Instead of being sort of like some kind of definitive history or. Or, you know, examination of something, it's more sort of pursuing this question as. As Laura was saying, he's got a great co host for this Gracie, who is smart, funny, insightful. And it's just interesting having somebody who's. Who's sort of in that universe and sort of what her reactions to these different things that they kind of encounter are really good. Like. Like all of Leon stuff. Really good interviews with sort of interesting people who play different parts in the industry, from consumers to people who has sort of joined sort of the capitalist, like, kind of lattice work of offering services for people who are only fans, creators, you Know, make more money for you. Make more money for me. All this stuff and what their attitudes are towards the consumers of this stuff. Yeah, it's good. I mean, it feels like a little bit more of a personal work, but not, not in like a schmaltzy kind of way than. Than most of his stuff. I looked it up. I'm a big thumb, thumbs up for this. And I guess it's. Yeah, it's, it's. You get a little bit more of, I think Leon's personality, his humor, his banner with Gracie is often very funny.
- [47:30]
D
She.
- [47:31]
F
She is very funny with him. Kind of giving him a hard time about being, I guess, less comfortable with some of this sexual stuff they're looking into than she is. So, anyway, yeah, it's a, It's a, It's a thumbs up. Is. Is. I liked it a lot. Good. Listen, highly recommend it.
- [47:46]
D
Kevin Flynn.
- [47:47]
C
I'm a thumbs up. Yeah, I, you know, the, the thesis here is not that just that OnlyFans has changed the nature of sex work, is that it's changed the way that consumers use online connections and that they are not only paying for something very intimate and sexual, but also for that connection, for the personal connection, because that's also available to buy. And I just thought that it was a very interesting look at the whole economy of that. Leon Nayfak, fantastic, as always, a little more vulnerable here. Yeah, he's totally square. And we figured that out by listening to it. Gracie's fantastic. She's so compelling. She was a great get for the podcast. I think they probably figured out early on that she was just more than just a good interview, that she would be a fantastic contributor. And we benefit from having a creator there who is unashamed of what she does, but also very insightful about what is happening there. It's probably not the sexy podcast that you might think it is. It's thoughtful, but very enlightening and also entertaining. So, yeah, I would say check it out. Only Fantasy, by the way, it's available not just on Audible. It's open everywhere, so if you don't have to pay for it.
- [49:11]
D
Yeah, this is my favorite podcast Leah Nayfak has ever made. I'm giving it a huge thumbs up. This is right now. This is my favorite podcast of the year. I found every minute of this incredibly compelling and incredibly entertaining and very informative. And for me, it gives enough of a 360 look at only fans that I don't need a deep dive into the beginning of the Internet from, like the 1950s or whatever that Leon would normally do in a podcast like this.
- [49:36]
C
The first boobs on the Internet.
- [49:37]
D
Gracie's incredible. And all of you have said, or a couple of you have said something about her lack of shame, but I didn't even think of shame when I was listening to this. Didn't even occur to me to, like, see a lack of shame, because there was no shame in it from the very beginning of the podcast. I mean, she's just like, I look sick naked, right? Like, it's like, yeah, I looked. You really do. You look sick naked, Gracie. You super do.
- [49:58]
C
What?
- [49:59]
D
And Leon. Well, she invited us to. She looks sick naked, right? It's a challenge. And Leon probably look sick in his little corduroy jacket sitting in a booth recording with her. I loved this show. I loved what it explored about human connection. I love what it explored about this product that people are buying that I am sort of on a fringe part of with my YouTube show. And maybe that's why I loved it so much, because I found it so enlightening. And there were so many parallels to what I'm doing with Mel on YouTube and the things you add and then what people expect and sort of the communications you have with people in real time and putting them on the screen. And it's. It's really. This platform has changed pop culture and it's changed what we consume and it's changed what we do, because that's kind of how it works. Usually there's an edge case that then becomes really popular and then that. That model or that way of doing business or the things associated with things like Amazon wish lists trickle into other parts of the pop culture and the medium. And so I found it fascinating. A a as they say in Christmas Story, I'm like that witch walking around, you know? Yeah. Huge, huge thumbs up for me for only fantasy. All right, that's gonna do it for us. But before we go, Laura Bricker, do we have a cat of the week this week?
- [51:19]
E
Oh, yes. I have to say so Merrimack, one of our listeners, she went above and beyond and sent me videos, photos, endless content about her two dogs. Yeah. Honcho and Pepe. Mexican hairless dogs. Poncho and Pepper.
- [51:38]
D
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I saw one of these dogs once in Mexico and I did not know what to do because I'd never seen one before. Yes, they are so weird looking. So weird. But hers are cute.
- [51:49]
E
I love them. So it's like Poncho and Lefty, one of my favorite old time country tunes. Poncho And Pepe, I'm all about these dogs. And I was like, mary, I appreciate your enthusiasm. Don't worry, we're gonna get your dogs onto cat of the week.
- [52:02]
D
Yes, they have a weird mane that goes up from the top of their head all the way down their back. It's like a ridge but it's hair and they're otherwise completely bald. They are the weirdest looking dogs. Approached by one, you're like, what kind of. Even I didn't recognize it as a dog. I'm like, what kind of animal is that? It was like seeing the coat for the first time. It's like, what the hell?
- [52:21]
E
I was going to say these dogs are having a good summer. They're out by the pool, they're doing all sorts of things, having a good life.
- [52:26]
D
Love that. I'd love to meet them someday. Lara Bricker. Folks want to reach out to you and pitch you personally. Are there any kind of animal to be cat of the week? How can they find you online?
- [52:35]
E
You can find me Lyra Bricker on Instagram and bluesky.
- [52:39]
D
What about you, Toby? You're in Spain, but where can you be found on the Internet?
- [52:42]
F
Oball603 on Instagram.
- [52:45]
D
Kevin, besides only fans, where can you be found online?
- [52:48]
C
I'm evanpiefling.
- [52:50]
D
You can follow me everywhere at Reb Lavoy and yes, you can watch my YouTube show. Something's off. I am also a cam girl these days. Get episodes early and ad free at everything else we make@patreon.com partnersincrimedia Sign up for our Facebook discussion group. It's really awesome over there and everybody is rad. Speaking of no shame. Just, just the nicest, most shameless people you'll ever meet in your life. Our theme song was composed and performed by Ty Gibbons and the executive producer of this show is Kevin. And this show is also edited by Kevin. This show is recorded in the Caitlin Rogers project studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement where we also run an independent subscription based service where for enough money we will smush corn dogs in high heeled shoes.
- [53:31]
C
We will.
- [53:31]
D
That's what you're into. New level I'm if of all the crime writers. Thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later.
- [53:39]
C
Toby, what the are you eating?
- [53:40]
E
I hear something.
- [53:43]
D
The Kit Kat.
- [53:45]
E
It's like.
- [53:46]
D
It's like being at the movies when someone behind you is opening up.
- [53:48]
C
You just put your face in the wrapper.
- [53:51]
F
Bear bells.
- [53:54]
C
Oh, all right.
- [53:55]
D
Oh, that looks like. Oh, that looks like a payday Peanut caramel.
- [53:58]
F
I don't know, some kind of Spanish protein bar.
- [54:01]
D
All right.
- [54:02]
C
Okay. Bueno. No, that's fine. All right, where was I? Yeah. Brick with the magic dick. Yeah, Brick with the magic dick.
- [54:10]
D
So that's the strippers to the stage voice.
- [54:12]
C
Oh, yes. Now coming to the stage for your eyes only, gentlemen. Yes, it's Rebecca.
- [54:18]
D
Yes.
- [54:18]
C
Oh, I gotta do that again. Because this woman's also a Rebecca. It's like, come up with a different name. Here we go.
- [54:39]
A
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie, and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done. Well, for nearly 30 years, Angie has helped me, millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com.