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[00:01]
Kevin Flynn
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[00:38]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sounds delicious.
[00:40]
Toby Ball
Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time.
[00:43]
Kevin Flynn
Ba da ba ba ba. To get the Crime Writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia
[00:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs in a true crime pop culture, Other podcasts and on this episode it was the ride along show that entertained America and influenced how law enforcement behaved on TV and in real life. Whatcha gonna do when we revisit our discussion of the classic true crime podcast Running from Cops? Joining me to get that done and more is True Crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast. My husband and love of my life, it's Kev Flynn. Hello Kevin.
[01:35]
Kevin Flynn
Hello Rebecca.
[01:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
So Kevin, what are we gonna hear in today's CWO Classic Rewind? I don't know.
[01:40]
Kevin Flynn
On Monday we just had this great discussion about Dan Tabursky and all the great stuff that he did and this was one that we all really liked. We're going back to May 6, 2019 and our review of the series Running from Cops. From Headlong and Dan Tabursky.
[01:56]
Rebecca Lavoie
Let's take a listen. Let's get it done. Let's get into our True Crime Podcast review. This is what people are paying the big bucks for. Not really.
[02:04]
Kevin Flynn
No they're not.
[02:07]
Rebecca Lavoie
Dan Taburski's podcast anthology now known as Headlong is back for a third season. After missing Richard Simmons and surviving Y2K, Taburski is running from Cops, a six part series looking at the long running reality show about law enforcement and the bad guys they chase down while on patrol.
[02:30]
Kevin Flynn
In 1989, a new show popped up
[02:33]
Toby Ball
on primetime television that was like nothing
[02:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
anyone had ever seen before.
[02:39]
Toby Ball
The concept Follow real police officers with
[02:42]
Kevin Flynn
video cameras as they arrest real citizens. I would say that in the history
[02:47]
Rebecca Lavoie
of television this is a pretty grand statement.
[02:49]
Kevin Flynn
There is no simpler, better show than the format of Cops. Cops was the first real reality show. Now, 30 years and over a thousand episodes later, not only is CO still on, it's everywhere. On cable, in syndication, it's on 15, sometimes 20 times a day. Just this past week, it was on 70 times. A constant drumbeat about policing in America.
[03:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
With his usual humorous touch, Dan probes whether these TV ride alongs accurately portray everyday policing, what it's done to the public's perception of law enforcement, and whether the on camera suspects are fair game. New episodes of Running From Cops are coming out weekly on all the apps, but the entire series is now available on Stitcher Premium and we have listened to it all. So we are going to be talking about plot points from the whole series. I don't think so much that it will ruin it for people who have not listened yet. But if you want to avoid any mention of the last couple of episodes of Running From Cops, you may want to skip to the spoiler free review in our show notes. I have to tell you guys something about Dan Tabursky and this season of Headlong Running from Cops. Yeah, uh oh, Toby, I'm gonna read you a DM that Dan sent me on Twitter several months ago. Are you ready?
[04:08]
Laura Bricker
Oh no.
[04:09]
Rebecca Lavoie
He was talking about this season which was coming out, and he said, I don't want to oversell it, but you all, I hope, are gonna flip when you hear our new season coming out. And then he said, maybe, just maybe, this will be my first legit thumbs up from Toby Ball. Maybe. So here we have Dan Tabursky, very successful podcaster who does not necessarily need the crime writers on Bump and cares very much. Even though you technically gave a thumbs up to surviving Y2K, it was not super enthusiastic. He cares very much about whether or not you, Toby Ball, like this season of his podcast. So Toby, do you just want to spoil us right now? Is Dan going to be disappointed or happy?
[04:59]
Toby Ball
Taburski's just going to have to sweat it out for about another 25 minutes.
[05:02]
Kevin Flynn
All right, good answer.
[05:04]
Toby Ball
Wow.
[05:05]
Kevin Flynn
Good answer.
[05:06]
Laura Bricker
Goodness,
[05:09]
Kevin Flynn
there's so much suspense in this episode.
[05:13]
Rebecca Lavoie
There's a lot of suspense in this episode. Now, Kevin, one of the things this podcast promises in the first episode, because Taburski is very good at setting up premises of shows and promises and then delivering them. I think he says this will change the way we all look at perennial reality show Cops Forever. Did it change it for you?
[05:34]
Kevin Flynn
I don't know if it did that for me. It's funny, he pointed out a lot of stuff that in retrospect you're like, yeah, that was sort of like, right there. You know, it was hiding in plain sight. You know, a lot of the things about, you know, like, why would somebody pay, you know, sign the release? And, you know, all the different stuff about arrests. And the reason that police departments, nonetheless, it was very eye opening. And, you know, the example that they gave of suspected police misconduct that made it into the show yet was. Was also very troubling. I didn't really have a terribly high opinion of Cops. I didn't have a low opinion of it. Yeah, I kind of understood it for what it was and kind of already under, you know, knew that. Yeah, this stuff's all edited down, and so it's not going to be a. You know, this is what happens in five minutes of a real traffic stop.
[06:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah.
[06:30]
Kevin Flynn
But not a lot of people feel that way.
[06:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, one of the things that I love about the way Dan does these stories, and I do think he selects stories that he's particularly well suited to tell on purpose. You know, I mean, he's smart that way. He is an unabashed television consumer, right?
[06:46]
Kevin Flynn
Yep.
[06:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
And he admits, like, he doesn't spend time in the podcast telling us, this is what Cops is. This is why it's important. This is why we're doing the podcast. He's just like, I watch hundreds of episodes of this TV show. It's on all the time. You may not think it's popular, but it's really fricking popular. It's on 70 times a day. Jesus, Lara. His, like, pop culture sensibility and his ability to sort of, like, bring us into this landscape. Can you relate to that? I know you're not, like, a huge Cops viewer, but do you feel like that is a relatable and does it make him the right person to tell this kind of story?
[07:16]
Laura Bricker
No, I think it does, because, I mean, I think I've watched Cops like, a handful of times, and I was like, yeah, this show is stupid. I'm not watching this anymore. Like, it just irritated me because it was just so kind of over the top, like Jerry Springer or something. But I feel like he definitely. He kind of appreciates it for what it is, so. Especially when he's out doing interviews with people. I love the little asides that he throws in about, don't say that or you better not admit this. And then he just throws in, like, some random stuff about, like, the Golden Girls and how he also likes to. And I'm like, I appreciate the Golden Girls, too, because it's kind of like, nice background. It's very soothing. Like, it's very calming to watch the Golden Girls.
[07:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's soothing. Golden Girls is hilarious, but it is.
[07:55]
Laura Bricker
It's just kind of like relaxing. So, no, I think it's definitely. He's the right one to tell it also because of his background, you know, working in reality tv, which he brings up as he's talking. You know, he kind of has a window into what's going into making the show. So. Yeah.
[08:09]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, I do want to just drop a quick clip because you did mention Dan's asides. And I said this before when we've reviewed his other podcasts. The reason I think Dan Taburski is one of the very best people doing podcasting right now is that he writes for himself.
[08:21]
Kevin Flynn
So. Well, some might say local government meetings are boring and really long.
[08:27]
Rebecca Lavoie
I've been waffling on what I was going to speak on. I had several issues I would just like to read.
[08:32]
Toby Ball
On the other hand, some say they're
[08:33]
Kevin Flynn
really long and boring.
[08:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's the 10 command.
[08:36]
Kevin Flynn
Petrocelli looks exactly like he sounds. He is meaty. Just a big brick wall of a guy.
[08:42]
Laura Bricker
And big and beefy.
[08:45]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, Toby, one of your first notes to me about this podcast is one of the most interesting notes you've sent, I think, before we've done one of these shows. And, and I quote, Toby Ball, this is the most political thing I think we've ever talked about. What do you mean by that?
[08:59]
Toby Ball
Well, I guess Cops is the most political thing that we've had. I think a show that talks about it in ways that kind of expose the politics behind it. And so that I think it's hard to talk about both Cops and then talk about running from Cops without it getting at least in some ways, political. Because what Cops really does is it lays out this vision of what's going on in our country that I think is at odds with reality, but I think does feed into political things that some people try to promote and try to use as excuses to do things. I think as much as we possibly can, we keep real politics out of this. But I think in this particular case, it's really hard to talk about this stuff without talking about what's the ultimate goal of this and what's the effect it has on the people who are viewing it and then the choices that they later make. And so I guess that was my point, is that I think it's hard to have a conversation about this without it getting political.
[10:06]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, I think the podcast goes there and I think that's one of the most interesting things about it. And I think his episodes with the sheriff, his conversations with Sheriff Ozzie, who is, to me, one of the more frightening characters we've met in any podcast that we heard. Interviews with law enforcement and his take on, you know, hate and violence. And he's not talking about white supremacists. He's talking about something else that is disturbing because five cops died because of radicalized hate. That's why we all saw that coming. Everybody in this nation should have seen that coming. Every leader in this country should have seen that coming. And we did nothing to prevent it. We allowed that hate to divide this nation. And that's what lapedi has struck into this nation is fed up with that. For me, one of the huge revelations of the podcast is the performative nature of Cops and how it is influenced not only socialized Americans on how it's okay for police to behave, but how it's trained future cops for how cops behave. Super interesting stuff. And yeah, kind of.
[11:23]
Kevin Flynn
You hear about that in episode six, towards the very end, about how the cops who are coming up now, it's been on the air for 30 years that they grew up watching this.
[11:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
We hear it in episode one with the little kids playing Cops.
[11:35]
Kevin Flynn
Yep, playing Cops.
[11:37]
Laura Bricker
Like, totally, like, authentically. It was, like, kind of stunning.
[11:41]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sure.
[11:42]
Kevin Flynn
I found this video on YouTube. It was made pretty recently. It's two kids who recorded themselves playing Cops.
[11:49]
Toby Ball
Not cops and robbers, but cops.
[11:51]
Laura Bricker
Oh, there's a suspect right there.
[11:54]
Rebecca Lavoie
We're gonna chase him down. There may be 10, 11.
[11:58]
Kevin Flynn
They're in a big field in the country. One kid is driving around in an atv, that's his cop car, and he's chasing his buddy, who is the suspect.
[12:06]
Rebecca Lavoie
Get down on the ground.
[12:08]
Kevin Flynn
Mimicking perfectly the language and the cadence and the tactics of the police on a show that was launched before these
[12:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
kids were even born. Get down on the ground now.
[12:19]
Kevin Flynn
And kids have always played cops and robbers and always will. But it's interesting to see how the TV show has influenced how the kids play that, but also how the actual officers conduct themselves and how they conduct themselves more particularly in front of a camera.
[12:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
Right.
[12:37]
Kevin Flynn
And while the incident from Georgia, I believe, is where the court case comes from, we hear about in the first episode, Dan doesn't say this, but we all sort of know that this looks an awful lot like this cop tampered with the evidence and planted so that the test would be. And why? Because he does this all the time. Maybe, maybe not. But it seems more likely that he did it because he'd been there for five nights and didn't get an arrest and wants to be on the TV show. So you definitely can see the way that it changes just the presence of the cameras themselves, change the conduct of the officers, and the presence of the TV show itself changes the conduct of law enforcement. And that also changes the public's perception about what law enforcement does and what it should do and, you know, what the life of a cop should be. And it's not like that. You certainly don't watch cops and see them going to get coffee.
[13:44]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, I do want to talk about a little bit about the story structure of Running From Cop is a little bit different from some of the other. Yes.
[13:50]
Kevin Flynn
Okay.
[13:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
A little bit different from some of the other podcasts that Dan demursky has put together, which I think of as more twisty and turny type podcasts. Missing Richard Simmons was very much like a week by week, as things happened, he changed editorial. I think surviving Y2K was very much like, it took turns, left turns and then right turns. And, you know, it ended up being something very different than you thought it
[14:10]
Kevin Flynn
was going to be.
[14:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yes. And this is much. Is structured much more, I think, traditionally, in some ways, where there is actually a thread that begins in episode one that then is followed through the episodes and we hear in the several threads. But the way that it's sort of framed is around the city of Spokane, Washington, and their city council president, Ben Stuckert, who is trying to get TV reality police stuff more regulated in their city.
[14:40]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[14:40]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, Toby, before the break, we were talking about this being a political story. And there's this literally a political story in the story. And I'm curious to know, what did you think of the way that Dan structured this season, especially compared to the previous seasons of this podcast that have been less traditional. Do you think that it worked, that he had threads and characters that we kept kind of revisiting throughout the series?
[15:01]
Toby Ball
Oh, yeah, I definitely think it worked. And I think there's that one big switch in the middle right, where they start talking more about PD Live. Is that what it's called or not?
[15:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Pd, yes.
[15:12]
Toby Ball
Yeah. Which I had never even heard of,
[15:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
which I like to call what can possibly go wrong? As soon as I heard that that
[15:17]
Kevin Flynn
show was coming out, the most DVR'd TV show of the year.
[15:21]
Rebecca Lavoie
Two million viewers. It's an incredible number of years. Yeah.
[15:24]
Toby Ball
Anyway, no, I thought. I thought it was. I thought it was good. I thought the whole. It was Smart on, like, a number of levels, I think, and one of which was it does kind of give you a little preview of, like, a decision that they make when they realize they're having too many, you know, people of color on getting hassled on Cops. So they go and try and find a place where there's a bunch of white people who get in trouble, and that turns out to be Spokane. And I think he makes the point which, you know, it's really been my, like, why I don't watch Cops is that it's really. It's, you know, it's about humiliating poor people, essentially. And Spokane apparently is a fairly poor city, so you go where the poor people are. I thought it was very good, and I thought, you know, it turns out to be. As things go on, it turns out to be. How smart that choice is becomes more and more apparent as you go on in the. In the show.
[16:22]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah. And I think some of the most affecting tape in this podcast is when Dan talks to people in that community who have been. I mean, Live PD was a thing that this was sort of this section of the show who have been on that particular show over and over and over again. And the producers of that show are clearly targeting them because they know they make for good tv. And Dan does what I think are some of the most sensitive and practical and informative interviews with these people who were actually arrested on live tv. I didn't start actually really remembering things until I was in booking.
[17:01]
Kevin Flynn
I woke up in booking, and I
[17:03]
Rebecca Lavoie
guess I had a mask on my face and what a mask on my face, because I guess I was spitting, and it was just really embarrassing, you know?
[17:13]
Toby Ball
Can I ask you.
[17:14]
Kevin Flynn
I mean, is that something that happens? Have you blacked out before?
[17:17]
Laura Bricker
Often?
[17:20]
Kevin Flynn
You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.
[17:21]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm just not often. Probably like the fourth time I blacked out when the police are around. Laura, what did you think of that section of the podcast? We hear from people who've been on Cops, we hear from people who've been on, you know, Live pd, and we hear Dan interacting with them. Did you like those sections as much as I did?
[17:38]
Laura Bricker
I did. You know, it makes me kind of nostalgic for my defense investigator public defender days, because that was one of the things that used to really piss me off when there was, like, a story that came out and somebody got arrested and it's, like, splashed all over the place and then say the person is either acquitted or, you know, maybe not guilty of what they were charged with. That's not splashed all over to the same degree. And also, there's always a story behind what's going on. And, you know, I liked. We had the woman who had like, literally just gotten out of jail, ridden the bus for three hours and, you know, she had no recollection. I mean, I felt horrible. She was the one, she in the, like pink socks in the snow, who was just super drunk. I appreciated that he went and found these people. I mean, that must have been very hard to track these people down. But the other part that I thought was really kind of, you know, enlightening but also, like, bizarre was when they were talking about the live PD show how, like, everybody knew somebody that had been on the show. They're like, oh, yeah, so and so was on the show. And so. And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? And how they would go back to the same place like six times trying to get somebody to answer the door. I mean, it was just nuts.
[18:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yep.
[18:52]
Laura Bricker
So I appreciated that that was brought to light because that sort of made the picture a little bit more realistic.
[18:58]
Kevin Flynn
Laura, did you ever go on like a ride along during a drug sweep or anything like that?
[19:04]
Laura Bricker
Well, when I was, you know, first, when I was a journalist, I did go, I got a call. One of my most exciting moments is when I got a call about a dog fighting ring. And I was told to be at a certain location at a certain time. And I was like out hiding in the bushes with the photographer. And so I watched it all sort of play out. And that was very well orchestrated and low key, so not quite how it's portrayed on Cops.
[19:28]
Kevin Flynn
A couple times when I was in radio and then on tv, the police would invite us along for when they're going to have an operation where they're gonna be rounding up 10, 20 different people and, you know, get in a van and everybody jumps out at the same time. And, you know, it just, it is objectively exciting. You know, there's an adrenaline thing and it's just. Which is why the car, like when the car chase is on tv, I mean, they are exciting. You know, regardless of whether you say, well, this, you're gonna start talking about probable cause and other things like that. Your body just reacts to that, to watching that.
[20:02]
Laura Bricker
Oh, yeah.
[20:02]
Kevin Flynn
But you know, one of the things that I found interesting, I've never done and will not ever do the we're gonna go in with the camera behind you as you kick in the door. Like the Geraldo Rivera example, which sort of set the precedent that we're not
[20:16]
Laura Bricker
gonna put a mustache on.
[20:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Kevin, are you assembling a Sam mustache and a bandana?
[20:21]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. Well, in the state, they determined that a judge ruled that the police have the authority to enter a home for this circumstance. But what the police can't do is also deputize or give extend that authority to the journalist. So as far as we're walking in with you, like right behind you with the camera and going through the house, as you're going through the house, you can't do that. That's. You don't have the right to do that. So it doesn't get done around here anymore.
[20:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
Speaking of journalism, I want to throw something out there and see what you guys think. This is something that occurred to me as I was like, assembling my notes for the show. Dan Dabursky does not couch himself as an investigative journalist. When he does this, he very much presents himself as. I'm a guy who's interested in this topic, and I know a lot about it. Cause it's my background kind of overlaps with it. And this is the thing that I want to tell you guys about. He's a very sort of casual approach in I just. In my notes. Just think about the sourcing of this series. Right. We have Cops who are on Cops in the series. We have Stephen Chow, who's the creator of the series. We have the longtime producer of the series who actually makes the show, and his son who continues making the show. We have the police chief in Spokane. We have the academic, the professor, who does the sort of analysis of the constitutionality of it. We have Laura's favorite character, the Anthony Burgess, who used to be a cop, is very pro law enforcement and has become a defense attorney and actually defended somebody in one of these Cops cases.
[21:55]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[21:56]
Kevin Flynn
There's not a box left unchecked.
[21:57]
Rebecca Lavoie
I mean, anybody who could listen to this podcast and not come away with it, like, the actual journalism that's happening in this show, the sourcing of this podcast is almost impeccable. I mean, I cannot think of a point of view which was not captured here.
[22:12]
Kevin Flynn
The interesting thing to me was the data journalism.
[22:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, tell me about that. Why was that interesting to you?
[22:17]
Kevin Flynn
Well, again, instead of just saying this is my impression of, like, what's going on in Cops, they did a super deep dive, looking at 800 plus episodes.
[22:25]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[22:26]
Kevin Flynn
And capturing. What did he say, like 38,000 different data points.
[22:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[22:30]
Kevin Flynn
And he came up with some interesting things and some surprising Things some very surprising. Toby was talking about the treatment of black suspects on the TV show. And after they had sort of made their adjustments, Dan's team determined that black suspects were arrested 28% of the time. And in real life, black Suspects are arrested 29% of the time. So it does reflect. Not a fairness thing, but, like, as he said, it reflects what's happening in the real world, which also is not a percentage of who's actually committing the crimes. But to that, that is not, as we would say, a distortion. Right, okay. But the most interesting thing was that they said that in real life, traffic stops result in arrest 2% of the time. And on cops, it's 92% of the time.
[23:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[23:18]
Kevin Flynn
That gives a skewed view of what is happening in law enforcement. And I think you really had to do the. And I would have liked to heard a little more about the data. I wish he had a little more robust website where he could put some of this stuff, because I think that that's. That's super fascinating.
[23:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
I thought it was fascinating that, you know, the data didn't show skewed numbers of arrests of black suspects, but that a disproportionate number of times the arrest of the black suspect happened in the hook of the show to get you to watch it, because they know that the audience likes to see that. They like to see a person of color getting chased and arrested. So they always put it at the beginning of the show, because that's the hook. And then Dan explains, like, that's how reality shows are built. You do the hook first, and then he did the destroy, build, destroy comparison, which I don't think he named. But the name of the children's show that Dan Tabursk used to produce was called Destroy, Build, Destroy. My kids used to watch it.
[24:08]
Kevin Flynn
Right.
[24:08]
Rebecca Lavoie
So, Toby, I know that you are not as trashy a TV consumer as I am. Like, I watch a lot of hgtv. I watch a ton of shitty reality shows. I watch Keeping up with the Kardashians. Is it helpful for you to hear the construction of a reality show? And, you know, I think we all agree that what this show does is terrible. But is it interesting to you to hear about why it's terrible? Like why the cops extend interactions and take a guy out of the car for 10 minutes when that's actually a super dangerous thing to do because the producers need more tape or, you know, why they are putting the black suspect chase to be in the episode? Is that interesting to you or Is it just horrifying? Like, what did you think of the. Those sort of explanations in this podcast?
[24:50]
Toby Ball
I mean, I think it's interesting and it's horrifying and I think it sort of confirms suspicions that I had that, you know, I don't think it's just with police, but whenever you put a camera on anybody, it changes the way you act. Right. It becomes performative. And that's like MTV's whatever that real World show was.
[25:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
And are you referring to the Real World?
[25:14]
Toby Ball
The Real World, whatever the fuck that's called and Jersey Shore and all this stuff. It's like you get the camera and people are going to act differently. I mean, that's just the way it is. So that was interesting. I think the fact that it's so popular and sort of portrays this sort of hyper adrenalinized approach to police work. And I was thinking back to other things that we've watched and I was thinking about Flint Town and about how affecting it was after watching Flint Town. At the very end, they have this very kind of chilled out traffic stop by this one cop with I think an African American teenage girl. And she starts off by giving the wrong. Her a fake name and stuff. And he's just like, look, why are you giving me a fake name? All this stuff. And it's just very sort of like it doesn't escalate. They just have, you know, she. She gets freaked out. They have sort of a kind of a nervous but calm conversation and they kind of sends her on her way. And I remember just thinking like, okay, like that's.
[26:25]
Kevin Flynn
We want more of that.
[26:26]
Toby Ball
That's a good police interaction. And it seems like in Cops. And again, I haven't really watched it. Like I've seen the ads and stuff, but certainly the way the ads portray it is the exact opposite of that, which is like premium escalation at all times.
[26:40]
Kevin Flynn
You know what, that Flint Town traffic stop is bad tv. Yeah, right. So it's not gonna be. That's not the B block for episode 57, season 21 of Cops, but the next stop where they gave the bad name and then they find out they're on, there's an outstanding warrant and all the other stuff that might make good tv. So the problem is that what is the actual profession of policing, which one of the retired officers talked about? He said he doesn't think it portrays the profession of policing. It doesn't do traffic stops and filling out paperwork and doing civil standbys and, you know, all wellness checks. Yeah, wellness checks. And traffic stops that are just, okay, you were speeding, here's your ticket, or go have a nice day. It doesn't do the public safety thing that it could and should, because what makes for good reality tv, you know, it's the adrenaline.
[27:43]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, Stephen Chow.
[27:44]
Kevin Flynn
And also, like you say, confirming our suspicions about, you know, some of the motivations about airing this suspect and that suspect and this crime.
[27:53]
Rebecca Lavoie
But Stephen Zhao talks very transparently about that in the podcast where this is a product he made America's Most Wanted. When that show debuted, they arrested the most wanted person in America in four days. And now he wanted to make another product. This product, you can't think about it as it is trying to be news, but it's not its product. And Dan's explanation of the difference between what you can do on news, using the Roger Stone arrest as an example, you can observe but not interfere. You can show faces without a release because it's news and that cops pretends to be news, but it's actually embedded in the police department by invitation, which skews that relationship a little bit.
[28:28]
Kevin Flynn
Can I ask you a question?
[28:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sure.
[28:29]
Kevin Flynn
What did you think about the passage where they took a clip from. I guess it was season one and he said, this is what it could have been. And it follows the female officer dropping
[28:37]
Rebecca Lavoie
off unnamed female officer.
[28:39]
Kevin Flynn
And that was. Seemed to be like more of a real slice of life looking at a more complex policing issue.
[28:45]
Rebecca Lavoie
It was so current too, because it was had to do with addiction and, like, parents who were in over their heads.
[28:51]
Kevin Flynn
What if it had been 30 years of that?
[28:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, I don't know. I don't. And I think that America's relationship with police departments might be look a little different if it had been 30 years. I really do, knowing now fully having the understanding of how popular the show is, I mean, I do think, and I can't say this enough, I mean, Dan talks about it like, you know, as being PR for police departments and all that stuff. I do think that part of the, you know, unintended consequence of this show is normalizing violent interactions between cops and citizens. Yeah, it's normalized them so that even later, when the advent of the iPhone did happen, and you'd see a cop arresting somebody without cause, and you'd see them, you know, doing these violent restraints and stuff. If you've watched a million episodes of Cops, you've seen it a million times, so you don't realize it's wrong because you've seen it on TV a million times.
[29:37]
Kevin Flynn
But these are the ones that the department okayed.
[29:39]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[29:41]
Toby Ball
I don't watch cop shows, but my sense is that there's a certain amount of human element aspects of things and heartstrings and all that stuff. And if you can literally do whatever you want in a fictional cop show and you. And you include that, why wouldn't you think that that would be a good thing to include in, like, a quote unquote reality cop show where you're like, you know, it's not just slamming guys against the pavement and, like, stepping on their heads and, you know, getting him for possession of crack or whatever, but it's also dealing with people who are in distress and trying to help them out of their situation or whatever. Isn't that the kind of thing that people like to see as well? Because it certainly seems like, like people write that stuff into shows. Seems like a choice they're not making.
[30:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
But that's the thing that the time. Pop culture has evolved, but Cops has not. I mean, right now, in pop culture, we have, as absurd as it is, svu, we have Olivia Benson, the most ridiculously empathetic character on television, as like our paragon super cop, right? And then we have Cops still on doing the same stupid shit that if they did it on an episode of svu, it'd be like, you're a bad copy.
[30:51]
Kevin Flynn
But they do have those. And they do have, you know, stops that are interactions that are end up being, like, actually very funny and not consequential, but they are. That's not predominantly what they're producing.
[31:01]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's not what you see in the opening credits. Now, Lara, as I was listening to this podcast, I found myself wondering how you were reacting some moments in this podcast. So I don't know if you can, like, brick your scale for me, 1 to 10 on a few things. If I just, like, run down a list for you.
[31:15]
Laura Bricker
Okay.
[31:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
Would that be okay?
[31:16]
Laura Bricker
Yeah. Cause there was some moments where I was, like, getting pretty pissed. So.
[31:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
Okay, so in the section where we hear that Cops, the producers are cooperating with police departments and basically telling people who have been arrested on the show that if they don't sign a release to appear on the show, they could then be arrested for some other crime. Brichter scale, 1 to 10. How were you on that?
[31:44]
Laura Bricker
That? 8.5.
[31:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
Okay. When we had this section where Dan was talking to Dr. Powers, he's the expert witness news of Police Force, he meant to talk to him about Y2K, but then he ended up talking to him about some of the constitutional Rights violations in cops. And then they went through a couple of those rights violations. Pretext stops obtaining evidence, quote, in a manner that shocks the conscience, with the flashlight in the mouth. Scene, the police dog chase. And why it is the cops wanted to do this on tv.
[32:18]
Kevin Flynn
Oh, my God, that one.
[32:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
Where were you on the scale there?
[32:21]
Laura Bricker
So the flashlight in the mouth and the dog thing, I, like, lost my mind. I was actually walking as I was listening to this. I'm going to go to nine on that because the flashlight and the mouth and the dog thing were just absolutely fucking ridiculous and just so out of line. It just made me like, what is wrong with people?
[32:40]
Rebecca Lavoie
Anyway, all right, next is we meet a character named Randy. He was on multiple times on that. I think he was on that live show, the live PD show. He then recorded a producer trying to get him to sign the release. And basically what the cop and the producer say to him is, the only guys who don't sign the release are usually guilty. And we also found out they paid him. And this is also, by the way, 40 bucks. Yeah, this is also, by the way, a show that is parading as news. They have Dan Abrams, an MSNBC host, as their host. What did you think of that interaction? Especially when you hear Randy on camera during one of these live PD shoots telling the cops, please stop harassing me. I'm not in a gang. And then the cop reads his arrest record on live tv. Go.
[33:30]
Laura Bricker
That was the part, okay? That was the part where I, like, really started to. I just was like. Like, this was re. Fucking diculous part. It was like, where they were like, he has, like, you know, 87, bazillion arrests. And then they're like, actually, no, he actually doesn't have all these arrests. You're counting every charge. He actually had been arrested, like, 12 times, which, I mean, that sounds like a lot. It's really. When you're dealing with people that have been arrested. I mean, I used to deal with people doing defense work. That's not really that much. But to make it sound so inflated, the way that they did on the show was just. It was just. It made me so angry. I. I was just. But you know what it is? It's that these cops are just playing to this TV show in such a way. And. And was that the one where the cop is now, like, actually, like, a special consultant to the show because he did such a good job? Or was that one of the other cops who then got, like, a special job?
[34:22]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, so one final one. Larry, you ready okay.
[34:25]
Laura Bricker
All right.
[34:26]
Rebecca Lavoie
Ben Stucker, hero city council president of Spokane, Washington, who wants to greatly limit the activities of reality shows involving policing because of the harm it does to citizens. We learned that he prints out his tweets. Where does that land you on the Brichter scale?
[34:42]
Laura Bricker
I don't really understand why he prints out his tweets. I think I might have missed that part.
[34:47]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's not how Twitter works. It's not how Twitter work.
[34:49]
Laura Bricker
You know what? He's old school. He wants to have a record, you know, so that when the next Y2K comes, he's got all his information ready to go. When the Internet crashes.
[34:59]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, well, I think we're getting close to being able to do what we do and review the show. But before we do, I have one final question for you all. Yeah. Toby Ball, what is your drag name? The first pet in the street where you lived. As Dan explains to us on this podcast, Toby Ball, what is your dragon?
[35:15]
Toby Ball
The street where I live now when
[35:17]
Kevin Flynn
you were a growing up child.
[35:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Street and first pet, Omar Shore.
[35:22]
Kevin Flynn
Wow.
[35:24]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's not bad. What about you, Kevin? What is your drag name?
[35:28]
Kevin Flynn
Heidi Linden.
[35:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Oh, that's so good.
[35:31]
Kevin Flynn
It's a good one, right?
[35:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
What about you, Lara? What is your drag name? Childhood pet and street where you lived?
[35:38]
Laura Bricker
I'm trying to remember which dog came first. So I'm gonna give you two that you can choose from. We can either have Bridget Valley or Liebchen Valley. Wow.
[35:47]
Kevin Flynn
Liechten Valley. That's good. Liebchen.
[35:50]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[35:50]
Rebecca Lavoie
I am Ginger, Maryland, by the way.
[35:52]
Kevin Flynn
Ginger, Maryland.
[35:53]
Rebecca Lavoie
Ginger, Maryland.
[35:55]
Kevin Flynn
Make a great dress.
[35:56]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, let's do what we do. I think Kevin's is the best.
[35:59]
Laura Bricker
Heidi.
[35:59]
Rebecca Lavoie
What?
[36:00]
Kevin Flynn
Linden.
[36:01]
Rebecca Lavoie
Heidi Lynden's hot. There are moments that define who you are and who you're becoming. And when those moments arrive, what you drive should rise to meet them. The Range Rover Sport commands attention from the very first glance. Every line, every detail engineered for impact. Inside refinement takes over with sculpted 22 way heated seating with available massage and a 13.1 inch touchscreen that puts everything within easy reach. But the Range Rover Sport isn't just about luxury. It's about uncompromised performance, too. Delivering a powerful, agile drive that feels as confident as it looks. And with nearly endless ways to personalize. From interior finishes to wheels to unique colors and accessories, your Range Rover Sport becomes unmistakably yours. For those who expect more from every moment, there's a vehicle designed to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now Explore further@range rover.com With a Capital One Saver card, you'll earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment and at grocery stores. And for a limited time, new card members can Earn earn a $250 cash bonus after spending $500 on purchases within the first three months. So grab a bite, grab a seat and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Savor card. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.comsavor for details. So Kevin.
[37:35]
Kevin Flynn
Yes.
[37:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
Did you think this was a high quality true crime show? Yeah.
[37:39]
Kevin Flynn
But not as high a quality as our items from Quint's that we always get.
[37:44]
Rebecca Lavoie
Nothing is.
[37:45]
Kevin Flynn
I want to start by just thanking Qu for supporting us for many, many years. We were with you when people called you Quince. Yes.
[37:54]
Rebecca Lavoie
Or did. That was a real thing.
[37:58]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. Well, we have been great partners with Quince for so long. As a matter of fact, because Rebecca loves the items that Quince has so much, we are net negative with our relationship with Quince because Rebecca continues to buy all of these quality items. Rebecca, right now, as a matter of fact, you are clothed head to toe.
[38:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yes.
[38:17]
Kevin Flynn
In quints. What do you got on?
[38:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm wearing this like cotton chunky cardigan from Quince that's like this cobalt blue color or cerulean as they would say in don't wear Praes Prada.
[38:28]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[38:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
But one of my favorite things I have bought from Quints in the last like eight months are these super soft fleece cropped wide leg pants. I have a white pair and a black pair and every time I wear them, especially the white pair, they feel
[38:45]
Kevin Flynn
like like a like.
[38:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
Guess how much these incredible pants cost.
[38:48]
Kevin Flynn
No idea.
[38:49]
Rebecca Lavoie
$42.
[38:50]
Kevin Flynn
Oh my God.
[38:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
I love these pants.
[38:52]
Kevin Flynn
These are quints for you.
[38:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
They're incredible.
[38:53]
Kevin Flynn
Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and they work directly with ethical factories. But cut out the middle man. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup.
[39:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
So be like me. Upgrade your everyday. Go to quince.com crime crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.
[39:17]
Kevin Flynn
You speak English there.
[39:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's Q I n c e.com crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime crime
[39:31]
Kevin Flynn
the snack wrap plus Caesar sauce equals extra crispy chicken caesary Greatness sounds delicious.
[39:40]
Toby Ball
Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Hi, I'm Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter Cats and cat owners deserve better than
[39:49]
Kevin Flynn
any old fashioned litter.
[39:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's why I teamed up with scientists
[39:52]
Kevin Flynn
and veterinarians to create Pretty Litter. Its innovative crystal formula has superior odor
[39:57]
Rebecca Lavoie
control and weighs up to 80% less than clay litter.
[40:00]
Kevin Flynn
Just one bag lasts up to a
[40:02]
Toby Ball
month, meaning fewer refills and less scooping.
[40:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
Pretty Litter even monitors health by changing colors to help detect early signs of potential illness.
[40:09]
Toby Ball
It's the world's smartest kitty litter.
[40:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Go to prettilitter.com and use code Pandora
[40:14]
Laura Bricker
for 20% off your first order.
[40:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, let's do what we do. Let's give Dan Taburski's headlong running From Cops Season 3 of his podcast series a thumbs up or thumbs down review and briefly explain why you are giving that review. Laura Bricker, I'm gonna start with you.
[40:32]
Laura Bricker
I am going thumbs up. I really liked it, even though it didn't rage me. It helped me get back into my exercise routine after vacation because I walked like 15 minutes longer than I expected to because I was so like pissed off at things that were happening. But it's great because, you know, I. I've watched a few episodes of Cops. I don't watch it that much if it's on. I sing the little song just because it's kind of catchy. But I really think it was good in that it shed light on the show in such a way that it really you brought out how society has been affected by this show in terms of perception of Cops and policing and the way that it actually works versus how it works on tv. Thumbs up. And also I love all the little sides, like just totally random things that happen. Like the city council assistant who's like putting on the armrest for the chair in one scene. So there's some kind of like quirky things which I appreciate as well.
[41:23]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, me too. I think I'm gonna give my review next, by the way. Cause I wanna make Dan wait another minute for Toby's review. I think that Dan Taburski is better at telling this kind of story than anybody else in podcasting. I think he is a superstar of this genre. I will continue to listen to anything that he makes. And I think this show did not disappoint. I loved it. This was a real look at a very, very important influence on our criminal justice system that nobody has talked about before. He traces it historically back to Dragnet, which I. Fascinating. And the cooperation between law enforcement, which is the state, and TV production companies, which is the media, which is truly a frightening concept. And he makes it clear that it's frightening without frightening you as a listener. As a listener, you are entertained, you are drawn into the story, you learn a whole lot. But this is also pretty freaking terrifying and also funny because it's Dan Taburski. So huge thumbs up for me. I love the series Running from Cops. Toby Ball. Dan Taburski is really hoping to get a legit untainted thumbs up from you someday. Where are you on Headlong Running from Cops? I'm super nervous. What do you think, Toby Ball?
[42:38]
Toby Ball
Well, first of all, I did find it terrifying, this whole sort of nexus of the state and the media and then like with a real directed purpose about what its sort of worldview is that it's trying to get across to people. Yeah, no, I think it's great. I mean, it's right up my alley. You know, I think his past couple things, like Dan, obviously he's a really good writer and he's really good at making podcasts and the last two things I had my little issues with. But this one, this thing I thought was great. Yeah, I just really, really enjoyed it. No hesitations, no qualms, no nothing. I just think it's. It's really well done, it's smart, it's thoughtful. You know, I think he kind of elevates what the concept was to something again, which I think at moments is kind of profound. So anyway, like, big thumbs up for me.
[43:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
Wow. Wow. I'm so excited and I'm so relieved now. Kevin, don't fuck this up.
[43:36]
Kevin Flynn
I won't.
[43:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
What is your thumbs up or thumbs down?
[43:38]
Kevin Flynn
Reed Shabirsky just pushed that south by Southwest film trophy off of his shelf to make place to print out this tweet and frame it saying that Toby Ball finally gave him a thumbs up.
[43:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
An unadulterated thumbs up.
[43:53]
Kevin Flynn
An unadulterated Toby did give him a
[43:55]
Rebecca Lavoie
thumbs up for surviving Y2K, but it was with reservations. No reservations here. Kevin, where are you on Running from Cops?
[44:02]
Kevin Flynn
Running from Cops is great. It's not a Peabody Award winning investigative piece of journalism. It's not meant to be. It does probably confirm more suspicions than sheds a light on something that we didn't know. But you know, I always wanted to know, why would these people sign those forms?
[44:20]
Rebecca Lavoie
Because people lied to them to get
[44:21]
Laura Bricker
them to do that.
[44:22]
Kevin Flynn
Fantastic. Yeah.
[44:23]
Rebecca Lavoie
They didn't do it. They didn't ask.
[44:25]
Kevin Flynn
Yes, this is my time, Rebecca. That was mostly a rhetorical question, but what makes it is some solid journalism, some thoughtful research covering all the bases in a very even handed way. And it Just is held together by Dan Tabursky, who's the star. He's like Bing Crosby just gleefully moving through the story. He's the Burl Ives snowman from
[44:55]
Toby Ball
how old are you?
[44:56]
Kevin Flynn
From Rudolph the red Nosed Reindeer. He's just charming and he is. When you hear him do the interviews, it confirms that the person who is doing this is the person who is your narrator. I mean, I mean, the same individual. I mean, the same person. Right. He's authentic. He has his asides. Does he need to have like the Simpsons sound effects like when he's talking about the Simpsons? Probably not. But look, you're gonna forgive him because he's just tap dancing his way right through this in a very joyful way that is also both informative and entertaining. Big thumbs up. I want Dan Taburski to come over, tuck me in, and tell me a bedtime story.
[45:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, me too. So, Kevin.
[45:42]
Kevin Flynn
Yes.
[45:43]
Rebecca Lavoie
Running from Cops. I think it holds up and I still think it's one of the best Dan Taburski podcasts. What do think you.
[45:48]
Kevin Flynn
You think I. I do. And I think, you know, I think this was the last of the headlong podcast. And Dan, you know, partnered with a lot of different people and different organizations like Apple TV and now. Please and thanks. And I just think whatever he does, he just is. He's just fantastic. And so I enjoyed. I enjoyed Running from Cops and I enjoyed talking about running from cops.
[46:12]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, he's like the apex of predator of our genre. I say I love Dan. Love Dan. Love Dan. Love Dan.
[46:17]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. All right.
[46:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, this show was recorded on the Caitlyn Rogers project studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also try to entertain, but instead have a negative impact on our entire profession.
[46:30]
Toby Ball
It's true.
[46:30]
Rebecca Lavoie
On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. Nature can hide dark secrets. It's my job to unearth them. My name is Anna Pigeon. This Friday, I'm a law enforcement ranger. I need you to put your hands on the ground.
[47:03]
Kevin Flynn
Don't miss USA's newest drama, a series.
[47:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
You even touch one hair on the parkside, I'll stop you.
[47:09]
Kevin Flynn
Based on the best selling books. For Anna, solving crime is second nature.
[47:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm not letting him get away with this.
[47:16]
Toby Ball
Why do you care so much, Anna?
[47:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Someone has to.
[47:19]
Kevin Flynn
Anna Pigeon premieres this Friday at 10 on USA Network.

Summary6 min read

Crime Writers On... "Running from COPS" (August 6, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this CWO Classic Rewind, the Crime Writers On panel revisits their original 2019 review of Running from COPS, the acclaimed six-part investigative podcast by Dan Taberski (Headlong series). The discussion unpacks the impact of the long-running reality show "Cops" on policing, public perceptions of law enforcement, and how reality TV shapes the narrative around crime and justice in America. The panel explores Taberski’s comedic and incisive storytelling, his unique approach as a reality TV insider, and the profound revelations about the intersection of law enforcement and media.

Panelists:

Rebecca Lavoie (host, true crime author & journalist)
Kevin Flynn (host, true crime author)
Toby Ball (crime/noir novelist)
Laura Bricker (journalist-turned-investigator)

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin & Premise of Running from COPS

[02:07]

The podcast is the third installment of Dan Taberski's Headlong anthology, investigating the creation, evolution, and consequences of "Cops," billed as America's original reality TV show.
The panel reminisces about the novelty and omnipresence of "Cops" in American culture:

"Cops was the first real reality show. Now, 30 years and over a thousand episodes later, Cops is still on, it's everywhere... a constant drumbeat about policing in America." – Kevin Flynn [02:46]

2. Pop Culture Influence: The Ubiquity of "Cops"

[03:14, 06:45]

Taberski's approach: less pedagogical, more immersive as a self-described TV consumer.
The show examines how "Cops" has permeated the cultural imagination:

"He's just like, I watch hundreds of episodes of this TV show. It's on all the time... it's really fricking popular." – Rebecca [06:46]
Laura notes, "He appreciates it for what it is," despite not being a regular viewer herself, and highlights his asides about pop culture like "Golden Girls." [07:15]

3. The Political and Social Undercurrents

[08:44, 10:06]

Toby describes Running from COPS as the "most political" podcast discussed on CWO, highlighting the show's exposure of underlying political narratives and their real-world implications:

"What Cops really does is it lays out this vision of what's going on in our country that I think is at odds with reality, but I think does feed into political things that some people try to promote." – Toby Ball [09:01]
The panel discusses how reality police shows reinforce specific visions of policing and public order.

4. Performative Policing & Media Effects

[11:22, 12:14]

The show illustrates how "Cops" changed both public and police behaviors.
Rebecca:

"One of the huge revelations of the podcast is the performative nature of Cops and how it...socialized Americans on how it's okay for police to behave, but how it's trained future cops for how cops behave." [11:22]
The discussion of kids mimicking TV officers, and new generations of police shaped by what they saw on the show.

5. Story Structure & Data Journalism

[13:43, 22:12]

This Headlong season is more traditionally structured, with threads (e.g., Spokane, WA city councilman Ben Stuckert) running across episodes.
Toby praises the narrative and focus on multiple threads; Kevin lauds the deep data analysis:

"They did a super deep dive, looking at 800 plus episodes…and capturing 38,000 different data points." – Kevin [22:25]
Key takeaway: On "Cops" 92% of traffic stops result in arrest, compared to 2% in real life—showing a wildly distorted view of policing. [23:17]

6. Exploitation, Consent, and Impact on Suspects

[16:21, 17:37, 31:14]

The panel is most moved by segments where real people who appeared on "Cops" or "Live PD" describe being targeted and exploited by TV cameras.
Laura Bricker, a former defense investigator, is especially furious at predatory practices:

"They were like, he has like 87 bazillion arrests… actually, no, he doesn't... The way that they did [present it] on the show was just… it made me so angry." – Laura [33:30]
They highlight manipulation of arrestees into signing TV releases, sometimes with threatening tactics. [31:19]

7. The Blurring Line Between News & Entertainment

[27:52, 28:27]

The podcast dissects how "Cops" (as a news-adjacent show) operates under lax scrutiny, in contrast to genuine journalism.
Rebecca:

"Cops pretends to be news, but it's actually embedded in the police department by invitation, which skews that relationship a little bit." [28:27]

8. Distortion of Law Enforcement Reality & TV’s Selective Narrative

[24:49, 26:24, 29:36]

The panel draws contrasts to other shows like "Flint Town" and criticizes "Cops" for only dramatizing violent and intense police encounters, rarely showing de-escalation or everyday policing:

"That's not what you see in the opening credits… it's normalized them so that… you don't realize it's wrong because you've seen it on TV a million times." – Rebecca [29:36]
They speculate about the potential for more humane police portrayals.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Cops Shaping Cops:

"The presence of the cameras themselves change the conduct of the officers, and the presence of the TV show itself changes... law enforcement. And that also changes the public's perception..." – Kevin Flynn [12:18]
On Exploitative Filmmaking:

"It's really… it's about humiliating poor people, essentially. And Spokane apparently is a fairly poor city, so you go where the poor people are." – Toby Ball [15:24]
On Distorted Consent:

"They're cooperating with police departments and basically telling people... if they don't sign a release to appear on the show, they could then be arrested for some other crime." – Rebecca Lavoie [31:19]
"8.5 [on the anger scale], that one." – Laura Bricker [31:43]
On Reality TV Construction:

"Whenever you put a camera on anybody, it changes the way you act. Right. It becomes performative." – Toby Ball [24:49]
Lighthearted Drag Name Game:

"The first pet and the street where you lived… Omar Shore." – Toby Ball [35:17]
"Heidi Linden." – Kevin Flynn [35:27]
"I am Ginger Maryland, by the way." – Rebecca Lavoie [35:50]

Key Timestamps

Premise & Cultural Reach: 02:07–03:14
Political Framing: 08:44–10:06
Performative Police Work: 11:22–12:14
Story Structure and Data: 13:43–14:39, 22:12–23:32
Impact on Suspects & Exploitation: 16:21–18:51, 31:14–34:49
Media Ethics & Reality/News Line: 27:52–28:27
Panel Brichter-Scale Rants: 31:14–34:49
Drag Names & Comic Relief: 35:15–35:56
Thumbs Up Reviews: 40:31–44:24

Panel Verdict

Unanimous, enthusiastic thumbs up.
All panelists agree that Running from COPS is a standout true crime podcast, blending investigative rigor, character-driven storytelling, humor, and profound cultural analysis. Dan Taberski is praised for his immersive style, inclusivity of voices, and for exposing the deep, often unseen influences of reality TV on American justice and society.

Toby Ball:

"No hesitations, no qualms, no nothing. It's really well done, it's smart, it's thoughtful... at moments, kind of profound." [43:31]
Kevin Flynn:

"Some solid journalism, some thoughtful research covering all the bases in a very even handed way... Dan Taberski, who's the star... both informative and entertaining. Big thumbs up." [44:22]
Rebecca Lavoie:

"Dan Taberski is better at telling this kind of story than anybody else in podcasting... Huge thumbs up for me." [41:22]
Laura Bricker:

"It shed light on the show in such a way that... society has been affected... in terms of perception of Cops and policing and the way that it actually works versus how it works on TV. Thumbs up." [40:31]

Final Thoughts

Running from COPS is highlighted as a must-listen not only for true crime fans but anyone interested in media literacy, policing, and how reality TV shapes public consciousness. The panel celebrates Taberski’s integrity, wit, and narrative skill—and expresses relief and delight that this is the rare podcast to earn universal panel acclaim (and Toby's "unadulterated thumbs up").

For new listeners:
This episode offers a lively, nuanced, and occasionally furious deep-dive into one podcast's investigation of how an old TV show quietly helped reshape a nation’s relationship with justice, policing, and reality itself.

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Transcript246 lines

[00:01]
Kevin Flynn
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[00:38]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sounds delicious.
[00:40]
Toby Ball
Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time.
[00:43]
Kevin Flynn
Ba da ba ba ba. To get the Crime Writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia
[00:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs in a true crime pop culture, Other podcasts and on this episode it was the ride along show that entertained America and influenced how law enforcement behaved on TV and in real life. Whatcha gonna do when we revisit our discussion of the classic true crime podcast Running from Cops? Joining me to get that done and more is True Crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Stories podcast. My husband and love of my life, it's Kev Flynn. Hello Kevin.
[01:35]
Kevin Flynn
Hello Rebecca.
[01:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
So Kevin, what are we gonna hear in today's CWO Classic Rewind? I don't know.
[01:40]
Kevin Flynn
On Monday we just had this great discussion about Dan Tabursky and all the great stuff that he did and this was one that we all really liked. We're going back to May 6, 2019 and our review of the series Running from Cops. From Headlong and Dan Tabursky.
[01:56]
Rebecca Lavoie
Let's take a listen. Let's get it done. Let's get into our True Crime Podcast review. This is what people are paying the big bucks for. Not really.
[02:04]
Kevin Flynn
No they're not.
[02:07]
Rebecca Lavoie
Dan Taburski's podcast anthology now known as Headlong is back for a third season. After missing Richard Simmons and surviving Y2K, Taburski is running from Cops, a six part series looking at the long running reality show about law enforcement and the bad guys they chase down while on patrol.
[02:30]
Kevin Flynn
In 1989, a new show popped up
[02:33]
Toby Ball
on primetime television that was like nothing
[02:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
anyone had ever seen before.
[02:39]
Toby Ball
The concept Follow real police officers with
[02:42]
Kevin Flynn
video cameras as they arrest real citizens. I would say that in the history
[02:47]
Rebecca Lavoie
of television this is a pretty grand statement.
[02:49]
Kevin Flynn
There is no simpler, better show than the format of Cops. Cops was the first real reality show. Now, 30 years and over a thousand episodes later, not only is CO still on, it's everywhere. On cable, in syndication, it's on 15, sometimes 20 times a day. Just this past week, it was on 70 times. A constant drumbeat about policing in America.
[03:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
With his usual humorous touch, Dan probes whether these TV ride alongs accurately portray everyday policing, what it's done to the public's perception of law enforcement, and whether the on camera suspects are fair game. New episodes of Running From Cops are coming out weekly on all the apps, but the entire series is now available on Stitcher Premium and we have listened to it all. So we are going to be talking about plot points from the whole series. I don't think so much that it will ruin it for people who have not listened yet. But if you want to avoid any mention of the last couple of episodes of Running From Cops, you may want to skip to the spoiler free review in our show notes. I have to tell you guys something about Dan Tabursky and this season of Headlong Running from Cops. Yeah, uh oh, Toby, I'm gonna read you a DM that Dan sent me on Twitter several months ago. Are you ready?
[04:08]
Laura Bricker
Oh no.
[04:09]
Rebecca Lavoie
He was talking about this season which was coming out, and he said, I don't want to oversell it, but you all, I hope, are gonna flip when you hear our new season coming out. And then he said, maybe, just maybe, this will be my first legit thumbs up from Toby Ball. Maybe. So here we have Dan Tabursky, very successful podcaster who does not necessarily need the crime writers on Bump and cares very much. Even though you technically gave a thumbs up to surviving Y2K, it was not super enthusiastic. He cares very much about whether or not you, Toby Ball, like this season of his podcast. So Toby, do you just want to spoil us right now? Is Dan going to be disappointed or happy?
[04:59]
Toby Ball
Taburski's just going to have to sweat it out for about another 25 minutes.
[05:02]
Kevin Flynn
All right, good answer.
[05:04]
Toby Ball
Wow.
[05:05]
Kevin Flynn
Good answer.
[05:06]
Laura Bricker
Goodness,
[05:09]
Kevin Flynn
there's so much suspense in this episode.
[05:13]
Rebecca Lavoie
There's a lot of suspense in this episode. Now, Kevin, one of the things this podcast promises in the first episode, because Taburski is very good at setting up premises of shows and promises and then delivering them. I think he says this will change the way we all look at perennial reality show Cops Forever. Did it change it for you?
[05:34]
Kevin Flynn
I don't know if it did that for me. It's funny, he pointed out a lot of stuff that in retrospect you're like, yeah, that was sort of like, right there. You know, it was hiding in plain sight. You know, a lot of the things about, you know, like, why would somebody pay, you know, sign the release? And, you know, all the different stuff about arrests. And the reason that police departments, nonetheless, it was very eye opening. And, you know, the example that they gave of suspected police misconduct that made it into the show yet was. Was also very troubling. I didn't really have a terribly high opinion of Cops. I didn't have a low opinion of it. Yeah, I kind of understood it for what it was and kind of already under, you know, knew that. Yeah, this stuff's all edited down, and so it's not going to be a. You know, this is what happens in five minutes of a real traffic stop.
[06:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah.
[06:30]
Kevin Flynn
But not a lot of people feel that way.
[06:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, one of the things that I love about the way Dan does these stories, and I do think he selects stories that he's particularly well suited to tell on purpose. You know, I mean, he's smart that way. He is an unabashed television consumer, right?
[06:46]
Kevin Flynn
Yep.
[06:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
And he admits, like, he doesn't spend time in the podcast telling us, this is what Cops is. This is why it's important. This is why we're doing the podcast. He's just like, I watch hundreds of episodes of this TV show. It's on all the time. You may not think it's popular, but it's really fricking popular. It's on 70 times a day. Jesus, Lara. His, like, pop culture sensibility and his ability to sort of, like, bring us into this landscape. Can you relate to that? I know you're not, like, a huge Cops viewer, but do you feel like that is a relatable and does it make him the right person to tell this kind of story?
[07:16]
Laura Bricker
No, I think it does, because, I mean, I think I've watched Cops like, a handful of times, and I was like, yeah, this show is stupid. I'm not watching this anymore. Like, it just irritated me because it was just so kind of over the top, like Jerry Springer or something. But I feel like he definitely. He kind of appreciates it for what it is, so. Especially when he's out doing interviews with people. I love the little asides that he throws in about, don't say that or you better not admit this. And then he just throws in, like, some random stuff about, like, the Golden Girls and how he also likes to. And I'm like, I appreciate the Golden Girls, too, because it's kind of like, nice background. It's very soothing. Like, it's very calming to watch the Golden Girls.
[07:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's soothing. Golden Girls is hilarious, but it is.
[07:55]
Laura Bricker
It's just kind of like relaxing. So, no, I think it's definitely. He's the right one to tell it also because of his background, you know, working in reality tv, which he brings up as he's talking. You know, he kind of has a window into what's going into making the show. So. Yeah.
[08:09]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, I do want to just drop a quick clip because you did mention Dan's asides. And I said this before when we've reviewed his other podcasts. The reason I think Dan Taburski is one of the very best people doing podcasting right now is that he writes for himself.
[08:21]
Kevin Flynn
So. Well, some might say local government meetings are boring and really long.
[08:27]
Rebecca Lavoie
I've been waffling on what I was going to speak on. I had several issues I would just like to read.
[08:32]
Toby Ball
On the other hand, some say they're
[08:33]
Kevin Flynn
really long and boring.
[08:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's the 10 command.
[08:36]
Kevin Flynn
Petrocelli looks exactly like he sounds. He is meaty. Just a big brick wall of a guy.
[08:42]
Laura Bricker
And big and beefy.
[08:45]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, Toby, one of your first notes to me about this podcast is one of the most interesting notes you've sent, I think, before we've done one of these shows. And, and I quote, Toby Ball, this is the most political thing I think we've ever talked about. What do you mean by that?
[08:59]
Toby Ball
Well, I guess Cops is the most political thing that we've had. I think a show that talks about it in ways that kind of expose the politics behind it. And so that I think it's hard to talk about both Cops and then talk about running from Cops without it getting at least in some ways, political. Because what Cops really does is it lays out this vision of what's going on in our country that I think is at odds with reality, but I think does feed into political things that some people try to promote and try to use as excuses to do things. I think as much as we possibly can, we keep real politics out of this. But I think in this particular case, it's really hard to talk about this stuff without talking about what's the ultimate goal of this and what's the effect it has on the people who are viewing it and then the choices that they later make. And so I guess that was my point, is that I think it's hard to have a conversation about this without it getting political.
[10:06]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, I think the podcast goes there and I think that's one of the most interesting things about it. And I think his episodes with the sheriff, his conversations with Sheriff Ozzie, who is, to me, one of the more frightening characters we've met in any podcast that we heard. Interviews with law enforcement and his take on, you know, hate and violence. And he's not talking about white supremacists. He's talking about something else that is disturbing because five cops died because of radicalized hate. That's why we all saw that coming. Everybody in this nation should have seen that coming. Every leader in this country should have seen that coming. And we did nothing to prevent it. We allowed that hate to divide this nation. And that's what lapedi has struck into this nation is fed up with that. For me, one of the huge revelations of the podcast is the performative nature of Cops and how it is influenced not only socialized Americans on how it's okay for police to behave, but how it's trained future cops for how cops behave. Super interesting stuff. And yeah, kind of.
[11:23]
Kevin Flynn
You hear about that in episode six, towards the very end, about how the cops who are coming up now, it's been on the air for 30 years that they grew up watching this.
[11:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
We hear it in episode one with the little kids playing Cops.
[11:35]
Kevin Flynn
Yep, playing Cops.
[11:37]
Laura Bricker
Like, totally, like, authentically. It was, like, kind of stunning.
[11:41]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sure.
[11:42]
Kevin Flynn
I found this video on YouTube. It was made pretty recently. It's two kids who recorded themselves playing Cops.
[11:49]
Toby Ball
Not cops and robbers, but cops.
[11:51]
Laura Bricker
Oh, there's a suspect right there.
[11:54]
Rebecca Lavoie
We're gonna chase him down. There may be 10, 11.
[11:58]
Kevin Flynn
They're in a big field in the country. One kid is driving around in an atv, that's his cop car, and he's chasing his buddy, who is the suspect.
[12:06]
Rebecca Lavoie
Get down on the ground.
[12:08]
Kevin Flynn
Mimicking perfectly the language and the cadence and the tactics of the police on a show that was launched before these
[12:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
kids were even born. Get down on the ground now.
[12:19]
Kevin Flynn
And kids have always played cops and robbers and always will. But it's interesting to see how the TV show has influenced how the kids play that, but also how the actual officers conduct themselves and how they conduct themselves more particularly in front of a camera.
[12:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
Right.
[12:37]
Kevin Flynn
And while the incident from Georgia, I believe, is where the court case comes from, we hear about in the first episode, Dan doesn't say this, but we all sort of know that this looks an awful lot like this cop tampered with the evidence and planted so that the test would be. And why? Because he does this all the time. Maybe, maybe not. But it seems more likely that he did it because he'd been there for five nights and didn't get an arrest and wants to be on the TV show. So you definitely can see the way that it changes just the presence of the cameras themselves, change the conduct of the officers, and the presence of the TV show itself changes the conduct of law enforcement. And that also changes the public's perception about what law enforcement does and what it should do and, you know, what the life of a cop should be. And it's not like that. You certainly don't watch cops and see them going to get coffee.
[13:44]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, I do want to talk about a little bit about the story structure of Running From Cop is a little bit different from some of the other. Yes.
[13:50]
Kevin Flynn
Okay.
[13:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
A little bit different from some of the other podcasts that Dan demursky has put together, which I think of as more twisty and turny type podcasts. Missing Richard Simmons was very much like a week by week, as things happened, he changed editorial. I think surviving Y2K was very much like, it took turns, left turns and then right turns. And, you know, it ended up being something very different than you thought it
[14:10]
Kevin Flynn
was going to be.
[14:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yes. And this is much. Is structured much more, I think, traditionally, in some ways, where there is actually a thread that begins in episode one that then is followed through the episodes and we hear in the several threads. But the way that it's sort of framed is around the city of Spokane, Washington, and their city council president, Ben Stuckert, who is trying to get TV reality police stuff more regulated in their city.
[14:40]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah.
[14:40]
Rebecca Lavoie
Now, Toby, before the break, we were talking about this being a political story. And there's this literally a political story in the story. And I'm curious to know, what did you think of the way that Dan structured this season, especially compared to the previous seasons of this podcast that have been less traditional. Do you think that it worked, that he had threads and characters that we kept kind of revisiting throughout the series?
[15:01]
Toby Ball
Oh, yeah, I definitely think it worked. And I think there's that one big switch in the middle right, where they start talking more about PD Live. Is that what it's called or not?
[15:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Pd, yes.
[15:12]
Toby Ball
Yeah. Which I had never even heard of,
[15:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
which I like to call what can possibly go wrong? As soon as I heard that that
[15:17]
Kevin Flynn
show was coming out, the most DVR'd TV show of the year.
[15:21]
Rebecca Lavoie
Two million viewers. It's an incredible number of years. Yeah.
[15:24]
Toby Ball
Anyway, no, I thought. I thought it was. I thought it was good. I thought the whole. It was Smart on, like, a number of levels, I think, and one of which was it does kind of give you a little preview of, like, a decision that they make when they realize they're having too many, you know, people of color on getting hassled on Cops. So they go and try and find a place where there's a bunch of white people who get in trouble, and that turns out to be Spokane. And I think he makes the point which, you know, it's really been my, like, why I don't watch Cops is that it's really. It's, you know, it's about humiliating poor people, essentially. And Spokane apparently is a fairly poor city, so you go where the poor people are. I thought it was very good, and I thought, you know, it turns out to be. As things go on, it turns out to be. How smart that choice is becomes more and more apparent as you go on in the. In the show.
[16:22]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah. And I think some of the most affecting tape in this podcast is when Dan talks to people in that community who have been. I mean, Live PD was a thing that this was sort of this section of the show who have been on that particular show over and over and over again. And the producers of that show are clearly targeting them because they know they make for good tv. And Dan does what I think are some of the most sensitive and practical and informative interviews with these people who were actually arrested on live tv. I didn't start actually really remembering things until I was in booking.
[17:01]
Kevin Flynn
I woke up in booking, and I
[17:03]
Rebecca Lavoie
guess I had a mask on my face and what a mask on my face, because I guess I was spitting, and it was just really embarrassing, you know?
[17:13]
Toby Ball
Can I ask you.
[17:14]
Kevin Flynn
I mean, is that something that happens? Have you blacked out before?
[17:17]
Laura Bricker
Often?
[17:20]
Kevin Flynn
You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.
[17:21]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm just not often. Probably like the fourth time I blacked out when the police are around. Laura, what did you think of that section of the podcast? We hear from people who've been on Cops, we hear from people who've been on, you know, Live pd, and we hear Dan interacting with them. Did you like those sections as much as I did?
[17:38]
Laura Bricker
I did. You know, it makes me kind of nostalgic for my defense investigator public defender days, because that was one of the things that used to really piss me off when there was, like, a story that came out and somebody got arrested and it's, like, splashed all over the place and then say the person is either acquitted or, you know, maybe not guilty of what they were charged with. That's not splashed all over to the same degree. And also, there's always a story behind what's going on. And, you know, I liked. We had the woman who had like, literally just gotten out of jail, ridden the bus for three hours and, you know, she had no recollection. I mean, I felt horrible. She was the one, she in the, like pink socks in the snow, who was just super drunk. I appreciated that he went and found these people. I mean, that must have been very hard to track these people down. But the other part that I thought was really kind of, you know, enlightening but also, like, bizarre was when they were talking about the live PD show how, like, everybody knew somebody that had been on the show. They're like, oh, yeah, so and so was on the show. And so. And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? And how they would go back to the same place like six times trying to get somebody to answer the door. I mean, it was just nuts.
[18:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yep.
[18:52]
Laura Bricker
So I appreciated that that was brought to light because that sort of made the picture a little bit more realistic.
[18:58]
Kevin Flynn
Laura, did you ever go on like a ride along during a drug sweep or anything like that?
[19:04]
Laura Bricker
Well, when I was, you know, first, when I was a journalist, I did go, I got a call. One of my most exciting moments is when I got a call about a dog fighting ring. And I was told to be at a certain location at a certain time. And I was like out hiding in the bushes with the photographer. And so I watched it all sort of play out. And that was very well orchestrated and low key, so not quite how it's portrayed on Cops.
[19:28]
Kevin Flynn
A couple times when I was in radio and then on tv, the police would invite us along for when they're going to have an operation where they're gonna be rounding up 10, 20 different people and, you know, get in a van and everybody jumps out at the same time. And, you know, it just, it is objectively exciting. You know, there's an adrenaline thing and it's just. Which is why the car, like when the car chase is on tv, I mean, they are exciting. You know, regardless of whether you say, well, this, you're gonna start talking about probable cause and other things like that. Your body just reacts to that, to watching that.
[20:02]
Laura Bricker
Oh, yeah.
[20:02]
Kevin Flynn
But you know, one of the things that I found interesting, I've never done and will not ever do the we're gonna go in with the camera behind you as you kick in the door. Like the Geraldo Rivera example, which sort of set the precedent that we're not
[20:16]
Laura Bricker
gonna put a mustache on.
[20:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Kevin, are you assembling a Sam mustache and a bandana?
[20:21]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. Well, in the state, they determined that a judge ruled that the police have the authority to enter a home for this circumstance. But what the police can't do is also deputize or give extend that authority to the journalist. So as far as we're walking in with you, like right behind you with the camera and going through the house, as you're going through the house, you can't do that. That's. You don't have the right to do that. So it doesn't get done around here anymore.
[20:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
Speaking of journalism, I want to throw something out there and see what you guys think. This is something that occurred to me as I was like, assembling my notes for the show. Dan Dabursky does not couch himself as an investigative journalist. When he does this, he very much presents himself as. I'm a guy who's interested in this topic, and I know a lot about it. Cause it's my background kind of overlaps with it. And this is the thing that I want to tell you guys about. He's a very sort of casual approach in I just. In my notes. Just think about the sourcing of this series. Right. We have Cops who are on Cops in the series. We have Stephen Chow, who's the creator of the series. We have the longtime producer of the series who actually makes the show, and his son who continues making the show. We have the police chief in Spokane. We have the academic, the professor, who does the sort of analysis of the constitutionality of it. We have Laura's favorite character, the Anthony Burgess, who used to be a cop, is very pro law enforcement and has become a defense attorney and actually defended somebody in one of these Cops cases.
[21:55]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[21:56]
Kevin Flynn
There's not a box left unchecked.
[21:57]
Rebecca Lavoie
I mean, anybody who could listen to this podcast and not come away with it, like, the actual journalism that's happening in this show, the sourcing of this podcast is almost impeccable. I mean, I cannot think of a point of view which was not captured here.
[22:12]
Kevin Flynn
The interesting thing to me was the data journalism.
[22:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, tell me about that. Why was that interesting to you?
[22:17]
Kevin Flynn
Well, again, instead of just saying this is my impression of, like, what's going on in Cops, they did a super deep dive, looking at 800 plus episodes.
[22:25]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[22:26]
Kevin Flynn
And capturing. What did he say, like 38,000 different data points.
[22:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[22:30]
Kevin Flynn
And he came up with some interesting things and some surprising Things some very surprising. Toby was talking about the treatment of black suspects on the TV show. And after they had sort of made their adjustments, Dan's team determined that black suspects were arrested 28% of the time. And in real life, black Suspects are arrested 29% of the time. So it does reflect. Not a fairness thing, but, like, as he said, it reflects what's happening in the real world, which also is not a percentage of who's actually committing the crimes. But to that, that is not, as we would say, a distortion. Right, okay. But the most interesting thing was that they said that in real life, traffic stops result in arrest 2% of the time. And on cops, it's 92% of the time.
[23:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[23:18]
Kevin Flynn
That gives a skewed view of what is happening in law enforcement. And I think you really had to do the. And I would have liked to heard a little more about the data. I wish he had a little more robust website where he could put some of this stuff, because I think that that's. That's super fascinating.
[23:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
I thought it was fascinating that, you know, the data didn't show skewed numbers of arrests of black suspects, but that a disproportionate number of times the arrest of the black suspect happened in the hook of the show to get you to watch it, because they know that the audience likes to see that. They like to see a person of color getting chased and arrested. So they always put it at the beginning of the show, because that's the hook. And then Dan explains, like, that's how reality shows are built. You do the hook first, and then he did the destroy, build, destroy comparison, which I don't think he named. But the name of the children's show that Dan Tabursk used to produce was called Destroy, Build, Destroy. My kids used to watch it.
[24:08]
Kevin Flynn
Right.
[24:08]
Rebecca Lavoie
So, Toby, I know that you are not as trashy a TV consumer as I am. Like, I watch a lot of hgtv. I watch a ton of shitty reality shows. I watch Keeping up with the Kardashians. Is it helpful for you to hear the construction of a reality show? And, you know, I think we all agree that what this show does is terrible. But is it interesting to you to hear about why it's terrible? Like why the cops extend interactions and take a guy out of the car for 10 minutes when that's actually a super dangerous thing to do because the producers need more tape or, you know, why they are putting the black suspect chase to be in the episode? Is that interesting to you or Is it just horrifying? Like, what did you think of the. Those sort of explanations in this podcast?
[24:50]
Toby Ball
I mean, I think it's interesting and it's horrifying and I think it sort of confirms suspicions that I had that, you know, I don't think it's just with police, but whenever you put a camera on anybody, it changes the way you act. Right. It becomes performative. And that's like MTV's whatever that real World show was.
[25:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
And are you referring to the Real World?
[25:14]
Toby Ball
The Real World, whatever the fuck that's called and Jersey Shore and all this stuff. It's like you get the camera and people are going to act differently. I mean, that's just the way it is. So that was interesting. I think the fact that it's so popular and sort of portrays this sort of hyper adrenalinized approach to police work. And I was thinking back to other things that we've watched and I was thinking about Flint Town and about how affecting it was after watching Flint Town. At the very end, they have this very kind of chilled out traffic stop by this one cop with I think an African American teenage girl. And she starts off by giving the wrong. Her a fake name and stuff. And he's just like, look, why are you giving me a fake name? All this stuff. And it's just very sort of like it doesn't escalate. They just have, you know, she. She gets freaked out. They have sort of a kind of a nervous but calm conversation and they kind of sends her on her way. And I remember just thinking like, okay, like that's.
[26:25]
Kevin Flynn
We want more of that.
[26:26]
Toby Ball
That's a good police interaction. And it seems like in Cops. And again, I haven't really watched it. Like I've seen the ads and stuff, but certainly the way the ads portray it is the exact opposite of that, which is like premium escalation at all times.
[26:40]
Kevin Flynn
You know what, that Flint Town traffic stop is bad tv. Yeah, right. So it's not gonna be. That's not the B block for episode 57, season 21 of Cops, but the next stop where they gave the bad name and then they find out they're on, there's an outstanding warrant and all the other stuff that might make good tv. So the problem is that what is the actual profession of policing, which one of the retired officers talked about? He said he doesn't think it portrays the profession of policing. It doesn't do traffic stops and filling out paperwork and doing civil standbys and, you know, all wellness checks. Yeah, wellness checks. And traffic stops that are just, okay, you were speeding, here's your ticket, or go have a nice day. It doesn't do the public safety thing that it could and should, because what makes for good reality tv, you know, it's the adrenaline.
[27:43]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, Stephen Chow.
[27:44]
Kevin Flynn
And also, like you say, confirming our suspicions about, you know, some of the motivations about airing this suspect and that suspect and this crime.
[27:53]
Rebecca Lavoie
But Stephen Zhao talks very transparently about that in the podcast where this is a product he made America's Most Wanted. When that show debuted, they arrested the most wanted person in America in four days. And now he wanted to make another product. This product, you can't think about it as it is trying to be news, but it's not its product. And Dan's explanation of the difference between what you can do on news, using the Roger Stone arrest as an example, you can observe but not interfere. You can show faces without a release because it's news and that cops pretends to be news, but it's actually embedded in the police department by invitation, which skews that relationship a little bit.
[28:28]
Kevin Flynn
Can I ask you a question?
[28:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Sure.
[28:29]
Kevin Flynn
What did you think about the passage where they took a clip from. I guess it was season one and he said, this is what it could have been. And it follows the female officer dropping
[28:37]
Rebecca Lavoie
off unnamed female officer.
[28:39]
Kevin Flynn
And that was. Seemed to be like more of a real slice of life looking at a more complex policing issue.
[28:45]
Rebecca Lavoie
It was so current too, because it was had to do with addiction and, like, parents who were in over their heads.
[28:51]
Kevin Flynn
What if it had been 30 years of that?
[28:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, I don't know. I don't. And I think that America's relationship with police departments might be look a little different if it had been 30 years. I really do, knowing now fully having the understanding of how popular the show is, I mean, I do think, and I can't say this enough, I mean, Dan talks about it like, you know, as being PR for police departments and all that stuff. I do think that part of the, you know, unintended consequence of this show is normalizing violent interactions between cops and citizens. Yeah, it's normalized them so that even later, when the advent of the iPhone did happen, and you'd see a cop arresting somebody without cause, and you'd see them, you know, doing these violent restraints and stuff. If you've watched a million episodes of Cops, you've seen it a million times, so you don't realize it's wrong because you've seen it on TV a million times.
[29:37]
Kevin Flynn
But these are the ones that the department okayed.
[29:39]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's right.
[29:41]
Toby Ball
I don't watch cop shows, but my sense is that there's a certain amount of human element aspects of things and heartstrings and all that stuff. And if you can literally do whatever you want in a fictional cop show and you. And you include that, why wouldn't you think that that would be a good thing to include in, like, a quote unquote reality cop show where you're like, you know, it's not just slamming guys against the pavement and, like, stepping on their heads and, you know, getting him for possession of crack or whatever, but it's also dealing with people who are in distress and trying to help them out of their situation or whatever. Isn't that the kind of thing that people like to see as well? Because it certainly seems like, like people write that stuff into shows. Seems like a choice they're not making.
[30:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
But that's the thing that the time. Pop culture has evolved, but Cops has not. I mean, right now, in pop culture, we have, as absurd as it is, svu, we have Olivia Benson, the most ridiculously empathetic character on television, as like our paragon super cop, right? And then we have Cops still on doing the same stupid shit that if they did it on an episode of svu, it'd be like, you're a bad copy.
[30:51]
Kevin Flynn
But they do have those. And they do have, you know, stops that are interactions that are end up being, like, actually very funny and not consequential, but they are. That's not predominantly what they're producing.
[31:01]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's not what you see in the opening credits. Now, Lara, as I was listening to this podcast, I found myself wondering how you were reacting some moments in this podcast. So I don't know if you can, like, brick your scale for me, 1 to 10 on a few things. If I just, like, run down a list for you.
[31:15]
Laura Bricker
Okay.
[31:15]
Rebecca Lavoie
Would that be okay?
[31:16]
Laura Bricker
Yeah. Cause there was some moments where I was, like, getting pretty pissed. So.
[31:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
Okay, so in the section where we hear that Cops, the producers are cooperating with police departments and basically telling people who have been arrested on the show that if they don't sign a release to appear on the show, they could then be arrested for some other crime. Brichter scale, 1 to 10. How were you on that?
[31:44]
Laura Bricker
That? 8.5.
[31:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
Okay. When we had this section where Dan was talking to Dr. Powers, he's the expert witness news of Police Force, he meant to talk to him about Y2K, but then he ended up talking to him about some of the constitutional Rights violations in cops. And then they went through a couple of those rights violations. Pretext stops obtaining evidence, quote, in a manner that shocks the conscience, with the flashlight in the mouth. Scene, the police dog chase. And why it is the cops wanted to do this on tv.
[32:18]
Kevin Flynn
Oh, my God, that one.
[32:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
Where were you on the scale there?
[32:21]
Laura Bricker
So the flashlight in the mouth and the dog thing, I, like, lost my mind. I was actually walking as I was listening to this. I'm going to go to nine on that because the flashlight and the mouth and the dog thing were just absolutely fucking ridiculous and just so out of line. It just made me like, what is wrong with people?
[32:40]
Rebecca Lavoie
Anyway, all right, next is we meet a character named Randy. He was on multiple times on that. I think he was on that live show, the live PD show. He then recorded a producer trying to get him to sign the release. And basically what the cop and the producer say to him is, the only guys who don't sign the release are usually guilty. And we also found out they paid him. And this is also, by the way, 40 bucks. Yeah, this is also, by the way, a show that is parading as news. They have Dan Abrams, an MSNBC host, as their host. What did you think of that interaction? Especially when you hear Randy on camera during one of these live PD shoots telling the cops, please stop harassing me. I'm not in a gang. And then the cop reads his arrest record on live tv. Go.
[33:30]
Laura Bricker
That was the part, okay? That was the part where I, like, really started to. I just was like. Like, this was re. Fucking diculous part. It was like, where they were like, he has, like, you know, 87, bazillion arrests. And then they're like, actually, no, he actually doesn't have all these arrests. You're counting every charge. He actually had been arrested, like, 12 times, which, I mean, that sounds like a lot. It's really. When you're dealing with people that have been arrested. I mean, I used to deal with people doing defense work. That's not really that much. But to make it sound so inflated, the way that they did on the show was just. It was just. It made me so angry. I. I was just. But you know what it is? It's that these cops are just playing to this TV show in such a way. And. And was that the one where the cop is now, like, actually, like, a special consultant to the show because he did such a good job? Or was that one of the other cops who then got, like, a special job?
[34:22]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, so one final one. Larry, you ready okay.
[34:25]
Laura Bricker
All right.
[34:26]
Rebecca Lavoie
Ben Stucker, hero city council president of Spokane, Washington, who wants to greatly limit the activities of reality shows involving policing because of the harm it does to citizens. We learned that he prints out his tweets. Where does that land you on the Brichter scale?
[34:42]
Laura Bricker
I don't really understand why he prints out his tweets. I think I might have missed that part.
[34:47]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's not how Twitter works. It's not how Twitter work.
[34:49]
Laura Bricker
You know what? He's old school. He wants to have a record, you know, so that when the next Y2K comes, he's got all his information ready to go. When the Internet crashes.
[34:59]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, well, I think we're getting close to being able to do what we do and review the show. But before we do, I have one final question for you all. Yeah. Toby Ball, what is your drag name? The first pet in the street where you lived. As Dan explains to us on this podcast, Toby Ball, what is your dragon?
[35:15]
Toby Ball
The street where I live now when
[35:17]
Kevin Flynn
you were a growing up child.
[35:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Street and first pet, Omar Shore.
[35:22]
Kevin Flynn
Wow.
[35:24]
Rebecca Lavoie
It's not bad. What about you, Kevin? What is your drag name?
[35:28]
Kevin Flynn
Heidi Linden.
[35:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
Oh, that's so good.
[35:31]
Kevin Flynn
It's a good one, right?
[35:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
What about you, Lara? What is your drag name? Childhood pet and street where you lived?
[35:38]
Laura Bricker
I'm trying to remember which dog came first. So I'm gonna give you two that you can choose from. We can either have Bridget Valley or Liebchen Valley. Wow.
[35:47]
Kevin Flynn
Liechten Valley. That's good. Liebchen.
[35:50]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[35:50]
Rebecca Lavoie
I am Ginger, Maryland, by the way.
[35:52]
Kevin Flynn
Ginger, Maryland.
[35:53]
Rebecca Lavoie
Ginger, Maryland.
[35:55]
Kevin Flynn
Make a great dress.
[35:56]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, let's do what we do. I think Kevin's is the best.
[35:59]
Laura Bricker
Heidi.
[35:59]
Rebecca Lavoie
What?
[36:00]
Kevin Flynn
Linden.
[36:01]
Rebecca Lavoie
Heidi Lynden's hot. There are moments that define who you are and who you're becoming. And when those moments arrive, what you drive should rise to meet them. The Range Rover Sport commands attention from the very first glance. Every line, every detail engineered for impact. Inside refinement takes over with sculpted 22 way heated seating with available massage and a 13.1 inch touchscreen that puts everything within easy reach. But the Range Rover Sport isn't just about luxury. It's about uncompromised performance, too. Delivering a powerful, agile drive that feels as confident as it looks. And with nearly endless ways to personalize. From interior finishes to wheels to unique colors and accessories, your Range Rover Sport becomes unmistakably yours. For those who expect more from every moment, there's a vehicle designed to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now Explore further@range rover.com With a Capital One Saver card, you'll earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment and at grocery stores. And for a limited time, new card members can Earn earn a $250 cash bonus after spending $500 on purchases within the first three months. So grab a bite, grab a seat and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Savor card. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.comsavor for details. So Kevin.
[37:35]
Kevin Flynn
Yes.
[37:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
Did you think this was a high quality true crime show? Yeah.
[37:39]
Kevin Flynn
But not as high a quality as our items from Quint's that we always get.
[37:44]
Rebecca Lavoie
Nothing is.
[37:45]
Kevin Flynn
I want to start by just thanking Qu for supporting us for many, many years. We were with you when people called you Quince. Yes.
[37:54]
Rebecca Lavoie
Or did. That was a real thing.
[37:58]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. Well, we have been great partners with Quince for so long. As a matter of fact, because Rebecca loves the items that Quince has so much, we are net negative with our relationship with Quince because Rebecca continues to buy all of these quality items. Rebecca, right now, as a matter of fact, you are clothed head to toe.
[38:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yes.
[38:17]
Kevin Flynn
In quints. What do you got on?
[38:19]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm wearing this like cotton chunky cardigan from Quince that's like this cobalt blue color or cerulean as they would say in don't wear Praes Prada.
[38:28]
Laura Bricker
Yeah.
[38:29]
Rebecca Lavoie
But one of my favorite things I have bought from Quints in the last like eight months are these super soft fleece cropped wide leg pants. I have a white pair and a black pair and every time I wear them, especially the white pair, they feel
[38:45]
Kevin Flynn
like like a like.
[38:46]
Rebecca Lavoie
Guess how much these incredible pants cost.
[38:48]
Kevin Flynn
No idea.
[38:49]
Rebecca Lavoie
$42.
[38:50]
Kevin Flynn
Oh my God.
[38:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
I love these pants.
[38:52]
Kevin Flynn
These are quints for you.
[38:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
They're incredible.
[38:53]
Kevin Flynn
Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and they work directly with ethical factories. But cut out the middle man. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup.
[39:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
So be like me. Upgrade your everyday. Go to quince.com crime crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.
[39:17]
Kevin Flynn
You speak English there.
[39:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's Q I n c e.com crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crime crime
[39:31]
Kevin Flynn
the snack wrap plus Caesar sauce equals extra crispy chicken caesary Greatness sounds delicious.
[39:40]
Toby Ball
Caesar sauce at McDonald's for a limited time. Hi, I'm Daniel, founder of Pretty Litter Cats and cat owners deserve better than
[39:49]
Kevin Flynn
any old fashioned litter.
[39:51]
Rebecca Lavoie
That's why I teamed up with scientists
[39:52]
Kevin Flynn
and veterinarians to create Pretty Litter. Its innovative crystal formula has superior odor
[39:57]
Rebecca Lavoie
control and weighs up to 80% less than clay litter.
[40:00]
Kevin Flynn
Just one bag lasts up to a
[40:02]
Toby Ball
month, meaning fewer refills and less scooping.
[40:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
Pretty Litter even monitors health by changing colors to help detect early signs of potential illness.
[40:09]
Toby Ball
It's the world's smartest kitty litter.
[40:11]
Rebecca Lavoie
Go to prettilitter.com and use code Pandora
[40:14]
Laura Bricker
for 20% off your first order.
[40:17]
Rebecca Lavoie
All right, let's do what we do. Let's give Dan Taburski's headlong running From Cops Season 3 of his podcast series a thumbs up or thumbs down review and briefly explain why you are giving that review. Laura Bricker, I'm gonna start with you.
[40:32]
Laura Bricker
I am going thumbs up. I really liked it, even though it didn't rage me. It helped me get back into my exercise routine after vacation because I walked like 15 minutes longer than I expected to because I was so like pissed off at things that were happening. But it's great because, you know, I. I've watched a few episodes of Cops. I don't watch it that much if it's on. I sing the little song just because it's kind of catchy. But I really think it was good in that it shed light on the show in such a way that it really you brought out how society has been affected by this show in terms of perception of Cops and policing and the way that it actually works versus how it works on tv. Thumbs up. And also I love all the little sides, like just totally random things that happen. Like the city council assistant who's like putting on the armrest for the chair in one scene. So there's some kind of like quirky things which I appreciate as well.
[41:23]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, me too. I think I'm gonna give my review next, by the way. Cause I wanna make Dan wait another minute for Toby's review. I think that Dan Taburski is better at telling this kind of story than anybody else in podcasting. I think he is a superstar of this genre. I will continue to listen to anything that he makes. And I think this show did not disappoint. I loved it. This was a real look at a very, very important influence on our criminal justice system that nobody has talked about before. He traces it historically back to Dragnet, which I. Fascinating. And the cooperation between law enforcement, which is the state, and TV production companies, which is the media, which is truly a frightening concept. And he makes it clear that it's frightening without frightening you as a listener. As a listener, you are entertained, you are drawn into the story, you learn a whole lot. But this is also pretty freaking terrifying and also funny because it's Dan Taburski. So huge thumbs up for me. I love the series Running from Cops. Toby Ball. Dan Taburski is really hoping to get a legit untainted thumbs up from you someday. Where are you on Headlong Running from Cops? I'm super nervous. What do you think, Toby Ball?
[42:38]
Toby Ball
Well, first of all, I did find it terrifying, this whole sort of nexus of the state and the media and then like with a real directed purpose about what its sort of worldview is that it's trying to get across to people. Yeah, no, I think it's great. I mean, it's right up my alley. You know, I think his past couple things, like Dan, obviously he's a really good writer and he's really good at making podcasts and the last two things I had my little issues with. But this one, this thing I thought was great. Yeah, I just really, really enjoyed it. No hesitations, no qualms, no nothing. I just think it's. It's really well done, it's smart, it's thoughtful. You know, I think he kind of elevates what the concept was to something again, which I think at moments is kind of profound. So anyway, like, big thumbs up for me.
[43:32]
Rebecca Lavoie
Wow. Wow. I'm so excited and I'm so relieved now. Kevin, don't fuck this up.
[43:36]
Kevin Flynn
I won't.
[43:36]
Rebecca Lavoie
What is your thumbs up or thumbs down?
[43:38]
Kevin Flynn
Reed Shabirsky just pushed that south by Southwest film trophy off of his shelf to make place to print out this tweet and frame it saying that Toby Ball finally gave him a thumbs up.
[43:52]
Rebecca Lavoie
An unadulterated thumbs up.
[43:53]
Kevin Flynn
An unadulterated Toby did give him a
[43:55]
Rebecca Lavoie
thumbs up for surviving Y2K, but it was with reservations. No reservations here. Kevin, where are you on Running from Cops?
[44:02]
Kevin Flynn
Running from Cops is great. It's not a Peabody Award winning investigative piece of journalism. It's not meant to be. It does probably confirm more suspicions than sheds a light on something that we didn't know. But you know, I always wanted to know, why would these people sign those forms?
[44:20]
Rebecca Lavoie
Because people lied to them to get
[44:21]
Laura Bricker
them to do that.
[44:22]
Kevin Flynn
Fantastic. Yeah.
[44:23]
Rebecca Lavoie
They didn't do it. They didn't ask.
[44:25]
Kevin Flynn
Yes, this is my time, Rebecca. That was mostly a rhetorical question, but what makes it is some solid journalism, some thoughtful research covering all the bases in a very even handed way. And it Just is held together by Dan Tabursky, who's the star. He's like Bing Crosby just gleefully moving through the story. He's the Burl Ives snowman from
[44:55]
Toby Ball
how old are you?
[44:56]
Kevin Flynn
From Rudolph the red Nosed Reindeer. He's just charming and he is. When you hear him do the interviews, it confirms that the person who is doing this is the person who is your narrator. I mean, I mean, the same individual. I mean, the same person. Right. He's authentic. He has his asides. Does he need to have like the Simpsons sound effects like when he's talking about the Simpsons? Probably not. But look, you're gonna forgive him because he's just tap dancing his way right through this in a very joyful way that is also both informative and entertaining. Big thumbs up. I want Dan Taburski to come over, tuck me in, and tell me a bedtime story.
[45:35]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, me too. So, Kevin.
[45:42]
Kevin Flynn
Yes.
[45:43]
Rebecca Lavoie
Running from Cops. I think it holds up and I still think it's one of the best Dan Taburski podcasts. What do think you.
[45:48]
Kevin Flynn
You think I. I do. And I think, you know, I think this was the last of the headlong podcast. And Dan, you know, partnered with a lot of different people and different organizations like Apple TV and now. Please and thanks. And I just think whatever he does, he just is. He's just fantastic. And so I enjoyed. I enjoyed Running from Cops and I enjoyed talking about running from cops.
[46:12]
Rebecca Lavoie
Yeah, he's like the apex of predator of our genre. I say I love Dan. Love Dan. Love Dan. Love Dan.
[46:17]
Kevin Flynn
Yeah. All right.
[46:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Well, this show was recorded on the Caitlyn Rogers project studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also try to entertain, but instead have a negative impact on our entire profession.
[46:30]
Toby Ball
It's true.
[46:30]
Rebecca Lavoie
On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. Nature can hide dark secrets. It's my job to unearth them. My name is Anna Pigeon. This Friday, I'm a law enforcement ranger. I need you to put your hands on the ground.
[47:03]
Kevin Flynn
Don't miss USA's newest drama, a series.
[47:05]
Rebecca Lavoie
You even touch one hair on the parkside, I'll stop you.
[47:09]
Kevin Flynn
Based on the best selling books. For Anna, solving crime is second nature.
[47:14]
Rebecca Lavoie
I'm not letting him get away with this.
[47:16]
Toby Ball
Why do you care so much, Anna?
[47:18]
Rebecca Lavoie
Someone has to.
[47:19]
Kevin Flynn
Anna Pigeon premieres this Friday at 10 on USA Network.