Should I Marry a Murderer?

Summary

Crime Writers On…
Episode: Should I Marry a Murderer?
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Crime Writers On panel—Rebecca Lavoie, Kevin Flynn, Laura Bricker, and Toby Ball—deep dive into the Netflix docu-series Should I Marry a Murderer?. The series follows pathologist Caroline Muirhead, who becomes entangled in a whirlwind romance with a Scottish highlander, only for him to confess to a homicide. As Caroline negotiates her conflicting roles of fiancée, confidant, and covert informant, the panel discusses the documentary’s themes of self-destruction, addiction, trauma bonds, and unreliable narration—offering critical perspectives on both the storytelling and production.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Provocative Title, But Is It Accurate?

• Panel consensus: The title is misleading and clickbait-y.
  • Toby Ball: “Yeah, I guess. Except that I don’t think she’s ever actually gonna marry him. Like, I don’t think that’s even in play really. And then he’s actually not a murderer. ... I would have said, ‘Should I Ignore All These Red Flags?’” (08:22–09:18)
  • Kevin Flynn: “The show is actually much better than the name gives it credit for... The answer is no, and it’s always no.” (09:24–09:40)
  • The group jokes about documentary titles that undersell or misrepresent nuanced stories.

2. From Idyllic Romance to Dark Revelations

• The panel discusses how the location—the Scottish Highlands—and Caroline’s online dating experience add “location porn” and a seductive fantasy allure to her narrative.
  • Laura Bricker: “It was like a modern day Outlander fantasy here. ... I would totally have gone down this path.” (11:26–11:32)
  • Rebecca LaVoy: “It was such location porn, right.” (11:31)

3. Caroline as Unreliable Narrator: Compelling But Troubled

• The entire story is filtered through Caroline’s perspective, raising issues of reliability.
  • Toby Ball: “She’s unreliable, even though I think she’s trying to be as forthcoming as possible. ... She is just drinking, doing drugs, just going. And I’m like, is this, like, was this a sudden change in her or is this sort of her life beforehand and just kind of continued?” (12:30–13:48)
• The lack of context regarding Caroline’s background or mental health leaves viewers to fill in gaps.
  • Kevin Flynn speculates on omissions: “My guess was on that original relationship, that was probably abusive, but they couldn’t legally clear that for the documentary.” (14:44–14:55)
• The panel debates how much Caroline’s appearance, accent, and gender influence audience empathy.
  • Kevin Flynn: “Would we be so willing to sympathize with her if she wasn’t a white, pretty, young woman with a really intriguing accent?” (16:21–16:46)

4. The Crime: Escalation of Moral Shock

• The boyfriend’s confession shifts from an apparent drunken accident to something far darker.
  • Laura Bricker: “Not only did they hit him, he was still—they throw him in the back of the truck and he’s alive and they don’t do anything. ... This is going down a slippery slope.” (18:42)
  • Rebecca LaVoy: “She’s now feeling for this person’s family, and she’s like, oh my goodness, I’ve got to do something.” (19:55)
• The victim’s story (cancer survivor, cycling to raise money for charity) amplifies the emotional stakes.
  • Kevin Flynn: “It is extra bad juju when the guy is a cancer survivor going on a cross country cycle trip to raise money for charity.” (20:21)

5. Red Flags and Trauma-Addiction Spiral

• Caroline ignores numerous obvious warning signs, deepening her involvement instead of walking away.
  • Toby Ball: “There’s so many times when she could have just walked away from this whole thing. ... Instead, she sets herself up for all this sort of personal agony and danger. ... These are the kinds of things you do in the throes of addiction.” (28:38–29:37)
• The panel explores how addiction and trauma bonds impact Caroline’s judgment.
  • Laura Bricker: “She’s in this dynamic where she’s using. Her decision-making isn’t what it would be if she wasn’t using ... It’s like a trauma bond that just continues to snowball.” (31:09–33:23)

6. Police, Legal Context, and Documentary Limitations

• Strict defamation and libel laws in Europe may have shaped what the documentary could or could not show.
  • Rebecca LaVoy: “I really got the sense that there was more to this relationship in terms of him potentially being controlling or abusive than we were let on to believe.” (33:23)
• The question of why Sandy confessed raised psychological theories—was it a loyalty test, an act of manipulation, or something else?
  • Kevin Flynn: “One of the reasons we believe that he did that was sort of like a test. ... To see, like, would you still be my friend, would you still be my girlfriend if you knew this about me?” (34:37–35:52)

7. The Use of Video Diaries & Production Choices

• Caroline’s self-shot videos—especially during her breakdown—add vulnerability and realism, but are extremely raw for viewers.
  • Rebecca LaVoy: “What did you think about the inclusion of that footage?” (36:47)
  • Toby Ball: “It’s a tough watch, especially the very end where she’s in like a pretty ... she’s having like a psychotic break and she’s videoing herself ... it basically just shows the depths to which her mental health fell.” (36:58–38:21)
  • The dramatized first-person reenactments create a disorienting, immersive experience mirroring Caroline’s state of mind.
    • Laura Bricker: “I always felt a little bit off kilter, like I was also a little bit, like, inebriated, like she was as I was watching them.” (39:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Toby Ball (on red flags): “I would have said, should I ignore all these red flags?” (09:18)
• Kevin Flynn (on empathy): “Would we be so willing to sympathize with her if she wasn’t a woman who didn’t look or sound that way?” (16:46)
• Laura Bricker (on the crime): “They throw him in the back of the truck and he’s alive and they don’t do anything. Yeah, I’m like, oh, this is going down a slippery slope.” (18:42)
• Rebecca LaVoy (on narratorial reliability): “We are led to believe that we should believe the version of the story she’s telling. And then it becomes increasingly clear to me that she’s not being truthful about her state of mind, her thoughts, her feelings.” (16:46)
• Kevin Flynn (on confessions as loyalty tests): “One of the reasons why we believe that he did that was sort of like a test ... to kind of see, like, would you still be my friend? Would you still be my girlfriend if you knew this about me?” (35:52)
• Toby Ball (on self-shot breakdowns): “But she’s having, like, a psychotic break and she’s videoing herself during all of this. ... The contrast between that and where she is now is like a testament to her recovery.” (37:15)

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Thumbs Up/Down Reviews ([42:31–48:30])

Laura Bricker (Thumbs Up) [42:39]:

• Unexpectedly compelling; watched all 3 episodes in one sitting.
• Engaging central character; explores trauma bonds and mental health in relationships.
• Appreciated context around the “murderer’s” background.

Toby Ball (Mild Thumbs Up) [44:21]:

• Enjoyed the documentary, especially the ‘between-the-lines’ elements.
• Noted some pacing issues in the final episode.
• Somewhat limited by what was unsaid, possibly due to legal risks.

Kevin Flynn (Thumbs Up) [46:18]:

• Strong, compelling unreliable narrator.
• Propulsive storytelling, visually interesting.
• Multidimensional—more complex than typical “one-dimensional, basic cable” true crime.

Rebecca LaVoy (Thumb Sideways) [48:18]:

• First two episodes strong, final one frustrating.
• Lacked a crucial narrative turn; the film maintains trust in an increasingly unreliable narrator.
• Compared to Tindler Swindler and Trust Me—said this lacks the full transparency of perspective those delivered.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introducing documentary and title critique: 08:22–09:40
• Trauma bonds and addiction spirals: 28:38–33:23
• Caroline’s self-video breakdown: 36:47–38:21
• Reenactment and production method discussion: 39:05–40:06
• Thumbs up/down reviews: 42:31–48:30
• Notable quote – loyalty test theory: 35:52

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Additional Highlights

• Panelist banter about Scottish stereotypes, online dating disasters, and what makes a compelling true-crime protagonist.
• Discussion about documentary limitations (libel/defamation fears in the UK) and their impact on narrative completeness.
• Comparisons to other “victim-narrated” true crime docs, particularly The Tindler Swindler and Trust Me: The False Prophet.
• “Crime of the Week” closes the episode with a humorous look at Miami cops suing a movie for being “too real,” tied lightheartedly back to the episode’s theme of true crime and media representation (51:03).

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Summary

“Should I Marry a Murderer?” transcends its tabloid-esque title to deliver a tense, raw, and self-critical examination of trauma-bonded relationships, unreliable narration, and the complex intersection of love, addiction, and crime. While the panel generally recommends the docu-series (with some caveats), they note its limitations—particularly in context and narrative turn—while praising its immersive production and unique perspective. Listeners looking for a deeper, more challenging form of true crime storytelling will find this episode and the documentary itself especially thought-provoking.

Transcript

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm Rebecca LaVoy and this is Crime Writers on. Crimewriters. On is the original True Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts and on this episode, a lovestruck doctor learns a terrible secret about her fiance. Should she stand by her man or turn him in? Or a combination of both? We'll talk about the Netflix series Should I Marry a Murderer? Join me to get that done and more. Is True Crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast My husband, love of my life, Kevin Flynn hello Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Would you turn me in?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, I guess it depends. I think it would depend depend on

[Kevin Flynn]

what you did if the drug fueled sex was good.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I don't know, Kevin. I guess we'll have to find out someday.

[Kevin Flynn]

Sure.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Also with us, private investigator, certified pet detective, resident cat lady, and author of the Final Curtain, Laura Bricker.

[Laura Bricker]

Hi Laura Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And finally, it is our captain of all things cynical, author of the City trilogy, host of RIP Current. More like Ancient Strange Arrivals. And our Patreon Deep Dive Book Club podcast, it's Toby Ball. Hola, Toby.

[Toby Ball]

And Hey, Rebecca.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So, Kevin, this is Monday's program? It is what's coming up on Thursday's show.

[Kevin Flynn]

On Thursday, we're gonna be talking about the podcast Cole Survivor.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right.

[Kevin Flynn]

Does anybody have, like, a song going through their head every time they hear this?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

No.

[Kevin Flynn]

Isn't there, like a soul song?

[Toby Ball]

Soul Survivor by the Stones.

[Kevin Flynn]

There you go.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, I guess that's what the name came from, right?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, it's kind of. It's strange. It's a deep cut, too.

[Kevin Flynn]

It is a deep cut.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, it's like some boomer man in the room was like, I have an idea that'll be pop culture relevant. Let's name it after a super old deep cut Rolling Stone song. That's the demographic we're going for.

[Kevin Flynn]

Or you could be the sole survivor, like no one else, you know, the sole survivor of a.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right, but isn't that the name of the song as well?

[Kevin Flynn]

No, be like S O U L Soul. Soul Survivor. See, that's the pun. So it's a play on words. It's a play on words.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Ah. Ah. So you mean Soul Survivor, like the surviving of someone kicking you with their foot.

[Toby Ball]

Or it could be that, too.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, they're homonyms.

[Kevin Flynn]

Homonyms.

[Toby Ball]

As one of the Spinal Tap guys said, it's a fine line between clever and stupid.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right. That's right. Speaking of clever and stupid, we watched the Martin Short documentary last night, and it is so sad. Right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, it's actually. Well, I mean, it is, but it's also very life affirming too. What a joyful person.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He's had so much loss, so much

[Kevin Flynn]

tragedy, but, man, like, talk about, like, when you lay out his career. Wow. Totally underrated.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

You know, for the breadth of his talent. Because he was in a lot of bombs in the movies.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He didn't care.

[Toby Ball]

Oh, God.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

I mean, but like his friend group, like, he has this cabin.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What did Steven Snuckenberg say? Like, he knows everyone from the top of Hollywood down to the bottom of the top of Hollywood.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. Like, it was some other comedian, but he sure like these home movies and, like, just sort of hanging out at the cabin, playing Monopoly, jumping in the lake. It'd be like, okay, like people you would expect Eugene Levy, Steve Martin and their family. Katherine o' Hara and Then Steven Spielberg and then Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks. And, you know, and it's just the funniest scene is where Steven Spielberg said, you know, I can't joke around. The thing I do is I take film, so I take my camera out. And they took this thing where Tom Hanks and Martin Short each play. He played Forrest Gump, Martin Short played Ed Grimley and they reenacted the closing scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in character. They jumped off the end of a boat. It was. Yeah, it was very, very funny.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, yeah. Apparently Martin Short and his wife who died, had the relationship that everybody wished that they had in their relationship. So, yeah, it was very sweet. The whole thing was very sweet. I couldn't watch the end because I knew there was going to be more loss at the end and I didn't want to. Mm, poor guy.

[Kevin Flynn]

Poor guy, poor guy. But what a great talent. We're very lucky to have him in the true crime universe, so to speak.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You used to find him annoying. Remember back in the day?

[Kevin Flynn]

Much? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At first I just associated him with the characters that are all mugging. Right. And that were over the top and I just, you know. But he actually, I've come to see, you know, the greater breadth of his talent.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He won a Tony.

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

He's a singer and, you know, stand up comedian and. Yeah, so what he was in inner space. We've all made mistakes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He thought he was gonna be like a stage actor, singer person. Anyway, it was very interesting. I recommend. I recommend life affirming. All right, Kevin, should we talk about the thing we're gonna be talking about on this episode?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, let's do that. Speaking of life affirming, good marriages leading

off, it says, 6 foot 4 Highlander, lonely contractor, looking for someone to keep him warm on the cold nights on the farm. And I thought, Oof.

In 2020, pathologist Caroline Muirhead swiped right on a gamekeeper from the Scottish Highlands. Her whirlwind romance with Sandy McKellar led to a quick proposal. But before the wedding, her fiance confided that years ago he and his twin brother Kate killed a man and hid his body.

If we can get rid of this problem, then we can have this life together. And he was asking me how long it would take to, say, burn a human body. And I was like, well, it depends the state of decomposition. He said, I pulled a shit ton of bleach on that man, Kelly. And it was horrible. It was disgustingly horrible.

Muirhead was torn between her love for McKellar and her duty to turn him in. Her work with police to gather evidence only drew her further into their drug and booze fueled relationship. Muirhead found herself spiraling as she raced to learn more about the crime before McKellar could catch onto her.

My brain was like, you are going to get extremely hurt now. He's got the spare keys to my flat, on the car keys. And I said, I'm gonna die. He's gonna kill me. He's going, he is going to kill me.

In the Netflix series Should I Marry a Murderer? Muirhead tells her story of romance, homicide and self destruction. The show serves both as a tense procedural inside her efforts to uncover the details about the crimes of her fiance as a confessional for the lovestruck doctor about her mistakes along the way. Spoiler alert. We're gonna be talking about plot points from Should I Marry a Murderer? So if you wanna remain spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in our show notes for our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. So Toby, you think that this series has the wrong title? I mean, it is kind of a provocative title the series has, right?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I guess. Except that I don't think she's ever actually gonna marry him. Like, I don't think that's even in play really. And then he's actually not a murderer. It turns out he's a. What does he finally get charged with?

[Kevin Flynn]

H? Some kind of manslaughter? Yeah, homicide. Y thing.

[Toby Ball]

But I think the real story is, you know, it's her sort of plowing ahead. Despite like red flags here and there. You know, it's. You're watching the thing, you kind of know that it's going to go off the rails at some point, but at the same time you're like, she's like, oh yeah, you know, he'd be such a nice guy, but then he'd drink a little bit and he'd like get this look in his eyes and there's like a bartender talking about how he'd be like this huge problem. They'd have to kick him out. He's like 64 and like this big dude. And his brother's like the same. His brother goes up to her and is like, oh, he's really damaged. He's damaged good. She's like, oh, that's fine. He's really nice.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What would you have called this to, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

I would have said, should I ignore all these red flags?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'll say, I agree with you, Toby. This show is actually much better than the name gives it credit for because should I marry a murderer? The answer is no. And it's always no. And it's not like maybe it's not like, should I marry a sniper from World War II? It's like, that's different.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So much of that was Menendez wives.

[Kevin Flynn]

What the fuck? Yeah. Should you marry the. No, I don't think so. I don't think that's a bad idea. But you're right. It just seems like this. I don't want to say it was jokey, but it certainly seemed clickbait. Ish. I don't know, maybe they couldn't come up with anything better, but it certainly left the impression. I think I was apologizing when I assigned this. I'm like, no, no, no, listen. Without prejudice. Watch. Without prejudice. But the name doesn't do it any justice.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right. So near the beginning of the story, Lara, we're seeing that Caroline is doing some online dating, which you have done. Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bring Laura exactly. Into this.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Were these the same kinds of men you encountered while you were doing that?

[Laura Bricker]

No, but it did bring me back to my online dating era and just how you never really know who somebody actually is. You know, I had one time I thought a bot was writing to me. You know, I was like, this is like an AI thing. So I kept writing back and trying to like trick the bot. And then finally I said, are you a bot?

[Kevin Flynn]

Lars would be. Should I marry a shopping mall Santa Claus?

[Laura Bricker]

Oh, my God, so many Santa Clauses. But it's definitely that, you know, you can portray yourself. It's like social media, but in the. In that online dating forum. And it's like you can create, you know, whoever you want people to see for who you are. And I was probably an anomaly in that world. Cause I was investigating everybody before I even met them and reverse searching their image and figuring out who they were and where they lived and looking up their houses, making sure. But Caroline did not do that. And even if she did, I don't know if she would have stopped her path because it was like a modern day outlander fantasy here.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Exactly.

[Laura Bricker]

You know, the Highlands, I'm like, look at the. I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, I get carried off by it. You 100%.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It was such location porn. Right.

[Laura Bricker]

I would totally have gone down this path.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I have to say, the way she described it at the beginning of like, basically being able to go away every weekend to this idyllic place and like tromp around in her wellies on the Highlands. And like, they went shooting and they did all this fun, like, sporty stuff and I don't know. I mean, trade off. I don't know. Yeah, a little bit of a trade off there. But I understand wanting to go to like a fun cabin in the highlands every weekend.

[Kevin Flynn]

You trade off, like that beautiful place. Bad person. You sound like you went to Epstein Island.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, no.

[Kevin Flynn]

Because the island itself was probably beautiful.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, no. That's so bad. That's so bad.

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[Kevin Flynn]

You walked right into that.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, that's true. So, Toby, what do you think about the fact that Caroline is our storyteller here? We get this entire story from her point of view. Yes. We hear from her parents, we hear from a friend of hers, but she is the narrator. Do you find her to be a reliable or unreliable narrator?

[Toby Ball]

She's unreliable, even though I think she's trying to be as forthcoming as. As possible, I think. And I. She's certainly a compelling speaker. If she wasn't a good storyteller, like, this thing would just crumble. Right? I mean, because she's such a. Such a main aspect of it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Having to sit and listen to this recording. I can hear myself snorting the lines of cocaine. It's vile. I said, look, I need help.

[Toby Ball]

I wish we'd gotten a little more context as to what was going on with her because you basically get this, like, oh, she had this really terrible breakup and, you know, with this boyfriend she's been going out with and. And that's essentially it. Like, you get a couple different versions of that. I think you're kind of left to believe that everything that kind of follows is within this context of her being like, really sad or whatever, that this, that this relationship broke up or. Or angry. I mean, you don't even really know like, what her attitude Was she angry because he had an affair? Is she sad because he broke it off? You don't really know. But then I think even more importantly, she just goes on like this entire time you're watching this, she is on a bender.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Toby Ball]

Right. I mean, she is just drinking, doing drugs, just going. And I'm like, is this, like, was this a sudden change in her or is this sort of her life beforehand and just kind of continued? And it's not to like, party, shame her or whatever, but I kind of felt like that kind of context was sort of intentionally cut out. You're kind of left with this little package of time without much context before and not much after. Although you don't really have to have after in these situations. I guess the whole thing kind of felt unmoored because of that. It's like, why is she doing these things? You've given us this sort of very, very, very vague reason, but you don't really know much else about her. So that, I guess that would be my. My criticism of it. But as far as being like an engaging talker and storyteller, I mean, she's obviously very good.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, totally agree, totally agree. My guess was on that original relationship, that was probably abusive, but they couldn't legally clear that for the documentary.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Maybe that's kind of what they hinted at.

[Kevin Flynn]

They kind of hinted at that, and it was bad. Okay, but you're right, that's sort of one of the inciting motivations for jumping full on into a new relationship. But the point I want to agree with on Toby is that Caroline is like one of those special few victims who are excellent at telling their own story. And very engaging, especially in the beginning. So very effervescent.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

He had a hunting agency and he had pictures of up in the hills. It's that sort of idea of a man who is like, you know, if Armageddon came, he could fix anything. He could hunt anything. Like a man's man, you know? And I was like, yes,

[Kevin Flynn]

it kind of helps that she's not the victim of a violent crime. And we've always said it's not any person's fault if they are a victim, but they aren't a fantastic communicator on screen or in a podcast, that doesn't diminish them. But for those that are good, it amplifies the understanding and the overall effect of a piece of documentary film or audio. And I think it also builds some goodwill with the audience. This is somebody that we like and we feel good about, and so we're rooting for her. And so when we get to, you know, towards the end, like, you know, she starts getting into bad behavior, and then at the end, she's like, really off the rails. Are we still with her then?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

No.

[Kevin Flynn]

Some people may be.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I wasn't.

[Kevin Flynn]

But it ends up being a thought. Like, if this was somebody that you didn't really care about by then you're like, fuck them. That was really stupid. But I wonder, you know, would we be so willing to sympathize her if she wasn't a woman who didn't look or sound that way? She wasn't a white, pretty young woman with a really intriguing accent. If she was from West Virginia, maybe she comes across to the audience differently.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, I felt a little bit like, I mean, I didn't hate this, but I did feel like we are led to believe that we should believe the version of the story she's telling. And then it becomes increasingly clear to me that she's not being truthful about her state of mind, her thoughts, her feelings. Cause we see the videos and she's completely strung out. She's a mess. I just kept wondering, I'm like, is this just a really, for lack of a better word, conventional kind of boring story about people with addiction who get together and it's like a spiral of craziness. Right. Except the fact that there is this murder story behind all of it, or killing story. What did you think about the story itself? Lara, of course, her fiance or boyfriend, Sandy, for some fucking reason, decides to tell her about this. Which is like, yeah, for someone who doesn't appear to feel very guilty, I don't know why he's telling people that he did this, but, like, what do you think about the story he ended up telling her and what she ended up finding out about it?

[Laura Bricker]

Well, this was interesting. Like, you were talking about the title. When I. When I first hear the title, I'm thinking, oh, gosh, this is gonna be about somebody who, like, became a pen pal with someone in jail or a prison or whatever and was, like, had a prison romance, you know? So I'm like, okay, what is. What is this murder going to be? What is this going to be? And so at first blush, you hear the story about how he's. He and his brother, they're coming home and they don't see this cyclist on this very narrow country road late at night, and they hit him and. And he's dead. And they panic. And so they're like, oh, my gosh, we're going to lose our license because we're over the limit because we've been at the pub and we're going to bury him. And you're like, okay, bad, but understandable

[Rebecca LaVoy]

in a weird way.

[Laura Bricker]

I'm like, okay, I can. I can understand their rationale here. They panicked. They had been drinking. They were going to, like, lose their livelihood if they get, you know, convicted for this. You know, basically at that point, it's like a negligent homicide type thing where you, you know, hit someone, but it's not, like, premeditated.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Right.

[Laura Bricker]

But then as the story goes on, and then you hear that not only did they hit him, he was still. They throw him in the back of the truck and he's alive and they don't do anything. Yeah, I'm like, oh, this is going down a slippery slope. And if they showed that scene one more time with the backhoe digging the dirt when they. I was like, oh, here we go again. The backhoe digging scene. So then you're just like, thinking of this. This body. I mean, I. I guess I'm just morbid, but I'm like, I'm thinking of them just burying this guy. And I'm like, can you imagine being this guy's family member who's off cycling around the country or whatever and being like, wonder whatever happened to him? And zero trace and somebody that had zero reason to disappear or be killed or murdered or whatever and just vanish into thin air like they'd been abducted by aliens. So as the story goes on, you start to realize that there's something with Sandy's psyche that is allowing him to completely disconnect from that human element of this was a person that we hit. Oh, wait, then when we hear when he poured bleach over the body, I'm like, oh, this just. Just gets worse and worse and worse. Honestly, I could see Caroline and at that point, I could still relate to Caroline because I'm like, okay, she's now feeling for this person's family, and she's like, oh, my goodness, I've got to do something. And I can follow the trajectory of this, but the crime itself just goes from like, okay, I can kind of see this to, oh, okay, this is getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And every time I saw the backhoe, I felt worse.

[Kevin Flynn]

Larry, it's one thing to strike a cyclist and then cover it up in the way that they did. It is extra bad juju when the guy is a cancer survivor going on a cross country cycle trip to raise money for charity. But you always get great juju when you join us on Patreon.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's true.

[Kevin Flynn]

Absolutely, that's true.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

We're in the business section. It's very smooth, Kevin.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thank you.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Very smooth. Not tacky.

[Kevin Flynn]

Zero tack at all.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Really, really good.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'll tell you, I'm a cancer survivor. I didn't go on a bike trip for anybody. No, I was in it for myself. I was in it for myself.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You are a selfish cancer survivor.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's right.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So selfish.

[Kevin Flynn]

But it's so generous of you. When you join us on Patre, get a little something back too. In addition to supporting the podcast, you get all sorts of exclusive content. If you join us at the leading off level, you'll get the crime writers on after show. Rebecca's gonna talk about our Lunch in Boston with podcast legend Payne Lindsay.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

We used to have beef and now we're having beef.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

But we haven't seen him in a

[Kevin Flynn]

couple years and we ragu at his favorite Italian restaurant. That's worth the five bucks. All right. You'll also get Toby Ball's deep Dive book club podcast. Toby and his guests talk about interesting crime related, true crime related, historical related books. And the latest book they're talking about is Chaos. You guys will remember we reviewed the documentary version of this. This has to do. The premise is that maybe Charles Manson was an agent of the CIA or part of some, you know, mind control.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

MKUltra or something.

[Kevin Flynn]

MK Ultra. But Toby, this in the book, they cover, like so much additional ground about the 60s. It's really. It's not exclusively focused on Manson. Right.

[Toby Ball]

That's sort of maybe a third of the book or a quarter of the book. A lot of it is about, you know, Hollywood at that time, L.A. at that time. I mean, it's all sort of based around Manson, but it's sort of creating this, what the world was around him while, you know, before the murders, but while he was active in different places. It's really interesting. As I've said in the past, you know, you're kind of left with this, like, is this real or is this just like really, like high end, well, research, conspiracy theory stuff? And, you know, it's probably a little bit of a mix.

[Kevin Flynn]

You'll also get marry with podcast. Our advice podcast. Rebecca, what's one of the questions that our listeners wanted our advice on?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, we have one listener whose widow dad just started dating and she doesn't want any part of it. So she just wants to know if that makes her a bad person or not.

[Kevin Flynn]

Okay. Not as bad as someone wanting to marry a murderer or hide the body of a bicyclist on a charity ride. All right, that's pretty bad. Another Rebecca.

[Narrator/Promo Announcer]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

You guys agree there's a spectrum there? Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

There's a spectrum. Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Spectrum of badness.

[Kevin Flynn]

Spectrum of badness.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah.

[Kevin Flynn]

Including.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So it goes from not liking your dad's girlfriend to burying the body of a cancer survivor cyclist who was on a charity ride. Yeah, they're right next to each other.

[Kevin Flynn]

He was struck and then secretly like. And then bury them.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And those are next to each other in the spectrum?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

They're not following.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, no, that's why it's called a spectrum. Becca, for sake. Just look up spectrum in the dictionary.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So you never know where you place those on the spectrum.

[Kevin Flynn]

That's true. Another podcast that you'll get is Rebecca and Mel. Something's off. Mel is in guess where? Scotland.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

Not on a bicycle trip.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

She was in Edinburgh.

[Kevin Flynn]

She was there. And so Rebecca hosted several guest stars, including myself, so you get to listen to all of her.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And Sarah Carradine and Bethany Na. Bethany Na came on our members only stream, talking about her takes on civil cases in the Karen Reed universe. It was really fun.

[Kevin Flynn]

If you join us at the Brichter scale level, you get all that and an exclusive podcast, Laura Bricker's Leave it to Bricker podcast. Laura's always getting into trouble, trouble, trouble. And this time, Laura, it all went down at the condo board.

[Laura Bricker]

It is wild. It is like that show that we reviewed a few months ago about the neighbors, only in the condo world. And it involves an old man like that. Like, am I a cat emoji kind of thing, where this old guy that didn't know how to use Zoom came on the condo board and said, it's me. I'm the one who's suing you.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Sweet.

[Laura Bricker]

And I was like, oh, some shit's going down. So, yeah. And there was a woman who wouldn't show her face.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Are these meetings that we could join the Zoom of and watch as observers?

[Laura Bricker]

I mean, I could probably send you the link and you could just do what this woman Leanne did and not show her face. And then they all said, shut up, Leanne. We don't want to hear from you.

[Kevin Flynn]

I love it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I love this.

[Kevin Flynn]

I love it. If you join us at the let's do what we do level, you get episodes of Crime Writers on early and ad free, but you still get the business section because this shit's fire, right?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

My watch thinks I'm stressed. I should breathe. I think my heart rate is rapid from hearing all these stories.

[Ted Danson]

All right.

[Kevin Flynn]

And if you're a deep diver, you get all that. Plus you get to be an official sponsor of Toby Ball's Deep Dive Book Club podcast. You get all that when you Support us at Patreon.com partnersincrimemedia Kevin does.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Thus end our business section.

[Kevin Flynn]

Thus ends the business section.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Let's go ahead and take that music out right now.

[Expedia Advertiser]

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[Narrator/Promo Announcer]

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official podcast. Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kevin Flynn]

Mud, sand, snow, the track. Different surfaces, same truth.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Every ground is our proving ground. Ready, set, forged.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

So Kevin, who's the sponsor of this fine podcast?

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh, we're sponsored by Quints.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Shut up.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, summer is the perfect time to rethink the clothes that you've been reaching for every day. Take all those clothes that you bought from Quince in the winter, all those nice sweaters. You put them to one side of the closet or in a different drawer and you bring out all of last year's linens. Get the new ones to add to it. Yeah, Rebecca, what have you recently purchased?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Well, you know I love a linen shirt.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

And I have a couple of Quint's linen shirts. The European linen I love. The dark blue with the white stripes is my favorite one. I have a white one. I've got a pink one. I've got a solid blue one. They are the most versatile, cute shirts. I wear it over a bathing suit. I wear it out to dinner. We were on vacation, remember? I wore a linen shirt every day.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes, yes. And in fact, for that vacation you purchased me two pairs of swimming trunks.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

Bathing suit. Whatever. Whatever you call it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yes.

[Kevin Flynn]

And I'll say that, ladies, that if you purchase one for your man, be sure to get the short one. Get the short one. Tell them you're not an 80s surfer. You don't need it down to your knees. Look great, look elevated and save money. And by the way, Quints is not just about clothing. It's your destination. For elevated essentials across the home, kitchen, bedding and beyond.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too.

[Kevin Flynn]

Oh sure.

[Narrator/Promo Announcer]

High.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com crime for free shipping and 365 day quince.com crime. So Toby, earlier you were talking about all the Red flags that Caroline may have wanted to pay attention to was this story about killing a cyclist and burying him alive. Was that one of those red flags?

[Toby Ball]

You think it was one of them? Yeah.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Toby Ball]

One in a long list, but probably the wish would have been at the very, very top.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Toby Ball]

It's kind of interesting because there was a point at which I was watching this and I was thinking, you know, this would be a lot more interesting if what they're really following was this story of, like, these brothers who have this accident at night and make this sort of drunken snap decision about what they're gonna do about it and then have to live with the consequences going forward, including her sort of coming into the light. But, you know, obviously they didn't have those guys to tell their stories and they kind of had to go with it this way. There's so many times when she could have just walked away from this whole thing. Right. And spared herself. Instead, she, like, sets herself up for all this sort of personal agony and danger. Like, she could have just told the cops. It's like, hey, man, he just confessed to me to this thing. Here's that information. I'm out and just gone home and just never dealt with it again.

[Laura Bricker]

I think she tried and then the cops, like, sold her down the river.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, but then she went back to live with them.

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, but she went back to live with them. I mean, she's come and stay in my apartment and I'll ply you with drugs and alcohol, which I know are the things that turn you into a maniac. Again, it's like red flags and like, odd decision making. It feels to me like these are the kinds of things you do here in the throes of addiction maybe is make these kind of crazy decisions to be around the people who you're, you know, you're partying with or whatever. There are decisions that just don't make sense on the face of it. And again, they don't really provide a whole lot of context to it other than she kind of feels like that's what she had to do or, you know, I was super lonely during COVID so I went to. Back to this guy who murdered somebody again and again. It was like, can we just examine a little bit more? Like, instead of you just saying, well, for this reason, I went and did this. It's like, is that like actually a good reason to do what you're doing? Like, can you be a little self reflective on it?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It was drugs and mental health. It was drugs and mental health. I Mean. I mean, Laura, the thing that I think we get the biggest clue from is interviews with her parents, where I don't know if portions of the interviews were cut, but they seem to always be going toward, like, the mental health and drugs thing. And then they never actually say that. They're just like, we were so worried she wasn't herself, and her friend was like, she wasn't herself. I was so. And it's like, no, she was not herself. I mean, what do you make of this? What do you make of her sort of cycle with these two men? Cause it wasn't just her fiance. It was also the fiance and the brother. They were sort of a system, and she just seemed to be very pulled to that system.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I mean, I can see. I can kind of conceptualize, like, as I'm watching this unfold, how she's in this dynamic where she's using. Her decision making isn't what it would be if she wasn't using at the level that she's using. And she's gotten herself into this sort of mindset of identifying with the brothers, almost like Stockholm syndrome of, like, stay here. They're not gonna figure me out. But in order for me to stay here and make it that I can deal with what I'm doing and really tricking them, I'm just completely numbing myself with drugs and alcohol. And she's seeing herself as the person that's going to be the one to bring conclusion to this cyclist case. But her whole spiral is so toxic in terms of this connection she has with these brothers. She's losing her credibility, and she's losing her ability to think clearly the longer she's there. But it's like she's in this, like, snowball of. I went to the police, and then they let him out, but I know I have to do something. But this is so insane. Like, it's like she's. The only way that she can actually be there is to just completely check out, because it's such a crazy situation. But there's also that really kind of bizarre commonality that they have that they talk about early on where, like, he has this, you know, butchering animals, and she's a pathologist and looks at dead bodies, and they have this kind of connection that feels like a very toxic and potentially sick thing that they've bonded over. It's like a trauma bond. And it's a trauma bond that just continues to snowball as she's in there. And, yeah, it would have been great to have some perspective from Somebody about that type of attachment and how it formed and why it forms and how that type of attachment can then kind of morph when both sides are in the throes of addiction in the way that they are.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, it's interesting. Cause having interviewed so many directors of things made in Europe, I can tell you the laws there about. And the fear about defamation in these films is so strong. I mean, we had interviews where we had to, like, cut questions that we wrote because we just wanted them to explain something that happened in the film. But that thing in the film maybe was now controversial. I mean, it happened with things that you wouldn't think. So I really got the sense that there was more to this relationship in terms of him potentially being controlling or abusive than we were let on to believe. I mean, we're told that he is that way. She never says it in the documentary, but that doesn't mean she didn't say it. And they had to cut it. I mean, the relationship, to me, Kevin, seems very, very bad. And even insofar as him actually telling her about the murder, like, that seemed like a play to me.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. I mean, there are two central questions to this documentary. I mean, the first is like, why would she stay with him after knowing, you know, what she knows? And it does give her a form to sort of explain herself.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Who is this man? Who is this monster? Whoever I loved didn't exist. I was living a lie. And being high and drunk made that possible.

[Kevin Flynn]

And then the other question is sort of like, why would he tell her this in the first place? Right? Like, you know, it's kind of like you got away with it. Like, why would you say so? And it reminds me a lot of a book that we wrote called Our Little Secret that had to do with a guy who, when he was a teenager, he shot his friend's stepfather. Because the stepfather had been molesting her. Right? And he got away with it. But for many years, he would tell people in his circle, including partners. Partners and whatnot. And, of course, each time making it sound a little bit better. And one of the reasons why we believe that he did that was sort of like a test, right? To kind of see, like, would you still be my friend? Would you still be my girlfriend if you knew this about me? Every time he told it, he shaved some of the sharper edges off of it, which is how you go from, we struck a bicyclist and then took his injured but alive body, tossed it in the back of the truck like we do the deer, and then we dug a hole and buried it. It ends up being. Well, it was kind of an accident and he was already dead. Like, he explains it, but puts the best spin on it, I think in his mind, I think that he really loved and trusted her because if he didn't trust her, then he wouldn't have said that. And, you know, whether that's.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You said it was a test. A loyalty test.

[Kevin Flynn]

A loyalty test. Right. I mean, I think it's both things. I mean, I think he needs to know on some level, what would she think of me? What would she think of me if she knew this and he made that decision? Could have been drug and alcohol infused. It could have been some Dutch courage that. That he mustered to get there.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Scotch courage.

[Kevin Flynn]

Scotch courage. I mean, that's not what the term is, but okay, I'll let you have it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I'm just being geographically accurate.

[Kevin Flynn]

I'll let you have it. But we don't really get an answer to that. Right. And we really can't because we don't hear from Sandy. That's my takeaway. It's way more complicated than the Investigation Discovery Network style title for this series gives.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Toby. There's a lot of video of Caroline that she herself appears to have taken and that they include in this documentary, including a lot of videos of her just staring at the camera and smoking, which is weird, but it's because she's cool.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rebecca.

[Toby Ball]

Good look for her.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, I know it's back, but, you know, we clearly see the degradation of her life and her mental state throughout these videos. What did you think about the inclusion of that footage?

[Toby Ball]

So if she hadn't been so intimately involved in this, I think it. It would have been super troubling. I think the fact that she must have okayed it, I guess, makes it better. It's a tough watch, especially the very end where she's in like a pretty.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

When she runs away from court, she

[Toby Ball]

runs away from court. She's like, gets it in her head she's gonna go and find this missing bike that's supposedly underneath the waterfall. And she thinks she gets in her head that she's gonna find it and stuff.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I have just fucked my whole life up for what? For her, man, who actually killed somebody. And that grief and that loss and that stress culminated into that psychotic finale.

[Toby Ball]

But she's having, like a psychotic break and she's videoing herself during all of this. And so you see like a fair amount of it. And it's a tough watch, man. The contrast between that and where she is now is like a testament to her recovery. Yeah, it's just. It's a tough watch. And in the end, it doesn't really mean very much because this is the spoiler section. But you know from the beginning that she's not going to find the bike. There's going to be no bike there. She's just delusional. I think it basically just shows the depths to which her mental health fell.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

She's still a tractor, Toby.

[Laura Bricker]

I did like that

[Kevin Flynn]

they had video. They had manic video for doing it. So, yeah, I would use it.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

She thought the tractor would be her vehicle to get her away or.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, the high speed tractor.

[Toby Ball]

Fortunately, they still had the user manual.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

That's right.

[Kevin Flynn]

She goes from hiding from the police helicopter to taking a very conspicuous vehicle.

[Toby Ball]

Yes, I know.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It's like stealing a Zamboni.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Laura, what did you think about the production of this documentary? That footage. But also there were also reenactments and there were like first person reenactments where, like, you saw through people's eyes, you know, the hand reaching for the thing that stumbling around. What did you think about that? Because sometimes we don't like reenactments.

[Laura Bricker]

Right. I mean, I could see how these reenactments might not work for everyone, but I think in this case, the way that they were done for me, I always felt a little bit off kilter. Like I was also a little bit, like inebriated, like she was as I was watching them. Do you know what I mean? Like, I felt like I was more kind of in the zone of what it might feel like to be there at that time. Just because they felt a little bit disjointed and used in combination with all these videos of. Actually videos of her that were also very shaky, by the way, which were also very shaky. Like, I just felt like I was like feeling very, like discombobulated. But that sort of took me into like, this woman was also very discombobulated at this time. And it must have felt off kilter like this to be in her shoes as this was unfolding. I especially liked when they had all the farmers that came in and they would all just get like hammered together. When they were like closing down, I was like, oh, my God, that's. That's a wild scene right there.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

They'd play that in some music and just get hammered like every. Every Saturday. Yep, yep.

[Sugar Bee Apples Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

I was like, this is a whole different world right now.

[Kevin Flynn]

They get all that cocaine in the highlands. It's like they can't get Wi Fi.

[Narrator/Promo Announcer]

House of the Dragon is back and so is the official Podcast Join hosts Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion on HBO Max's official House of the Dragon podcast as they break down every episode and speak with the show's writers, cast and crew members. It's an all out war in Westeros and you never know what to expect when battling with dragons. Watch the official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rachel Demita]

What's up sports fans? I'm Rachel Demita here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the wnba? How stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA? Or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sugar Bee Apples Advertiser]

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

all right, let's do it. Would you let our listeners know should they check out Should I Marry a Murderer? It's a docu series on Netflix. Laura Bricker Thumbs up or thumbs down for Should I Marry a Murderer?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, I really like this. I did not expect to like this based on the title. I was expecting a completely different type of story than what I got. I liked the location. First of all anything that I can look at in Scotland, I'm like, sure, that's super interesting, but I think what about this was compelling? Was Caroline the central character in this? And I think she's a very interesting portrait in mental health relationships, how a trauma bond in a case and with another person can propel you into situations that you never thought you would be in. And it was really kind of a wild ride. Like, I literally sat down and watched all three episodes at once because I could not stop watching. I could not turn away. I also appreciated that there was some. We didn't talk about it in the review, but there was some context about the killer, the other person in this, the person that is the, quote, murderer, that gave some context on their background and really how they landed where they did at the point that the incident in this case occurs. And, you know, why they are maybe uniquely positioned to respond to it in a way that the rest of us might not respond in this way. This was just one of those situations where you think, how does somebody get in this situation? And would I do the same thing? And that's what we think when we look at cases like this. What would happen if I was in that situation? What would happen if Rebecca was in that situation?

[Rebecca LaVoy]

The same thing.

[Laura Bricker]

How would we respond? The same thing. This is a thumbs up for me, Toby Ball.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Thumbs up or thumbs down for Should I Marry a Murderer On Netflix.

[Toby Ball]

So I actually watched this like Laura did in one fell swoop. And my niece was visiting from. And she lives in Glasgow. So it's kind of fun watching it with her since a lot, you know, it all takes place in Scotland. So it takes place in Glasgow. And the whole thing starts with bagpipe music. And he's just like rolling her eyes. She's like, oh, I guess this is happening in Scotland. So, yeah, this is one of those, like, I feel like we come across these every once in a while where it seems like the. The documentary is about one thing, but what's like, really interesting about it is sort of between the lines of what's happening. And I. I feel as though, because, like, the protagonist Caroline is such a part of this that, you know, there's a lot of stuff that. That. That feels sort of unsaid that you can kind of glean from the story and the details and things like that. Like, you got to kind of work for it a little bit more than you normally would in a documentary. So I kind of came out of this, like, thinking about things other than, I think what the documentarians were trying to get across it makes it a strange place to like review it if, like, what you're thinking about isn't what the documentarians are necessarily thinking. That being said, it's an easy watch. The story moves along. They've got a lot of really good footage of a lot of the stuff that happens. The Caroline, the woman who's in the middle of it, is very engaging. First two episodes move right along. The last episode just freaking like grinds to a halt for a little bit and then kind of picks up again at the very end. Says the only pacing issue. So I guess I'm like a mild thumbs up. It just felt like there's a little more there. And in the main discussion, Rebecca talks about how like, libel laws and stuff in Europe may have contributed to that. And that sounds right to me. But anyway, mild thumbs up.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Kevin Flynn.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I'm going thumbs up on this. I like this much better than I thought I would. It's a great example of an engaging yet unreliable narrator. And that's what we get. She gets to tell her story the way she wants. We go from really liking her and feeling maybe bad for her to getting into questioning her and then being really perplexed by her. But yet I felt like the story was somewhat propulsive. It was told visually in an interesting and engaging way. Left me thinking that it was way more complex than we normally would get from sitting down with somebody telling their story of true crime. The New York Times did an article and I didn't read it, but I did see the headline and was like, okay, there's an interesting thing here about the parallels between Trust Me and Should I Marry a Murderer? Because both.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What was Trust Me? Which one?

[Kevin Flynn]

That was the one with Christine where she was inside.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Oh, inside the cult.

[Kevin Flynn]

Inside the flsd. Right, yeah.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Fdls.

[Kevin Flynn]

Fdls. Excuse me. So here we have two different women in two different situations where they're sort of embedded inside a relationship and they are acting somewhat as a double agent and trying to gather information. For Christine, in Trust Me, the False Prophet, her experience was very affirming and healing for her. And for Caroline, this is more destructive and self destructive. So in that way it gives a much richer portrait of what happened here as opposed to just sort of a conventional one dimensional, basic cable TV network true crime telling here. So if you get over the fact that it's a dumb title and you just watch it, I think that you'll be really interested in this. So it's a thumbs up. Not a huge thumbs up, but a

[Rebecca LaVoy]

thumbs up nonetheless, I also liked it more than I thought I would, but I'm only giving it a thumb sideways, which is because the first two episodes are interesting and good. But I compare this more, more than, trust me, it reminds me in terms of, like, something that I think the Tindler swindler sort of started, which is like a person telling their own story, a very compelling woman telling a story about things she did, mistakes she made, and kind of getting into a situation that she can't believe she got into. The difference between Tinder Swindler and this and Christine and this is that throughout those documentaries, you come to believe them more. And that's sort of like, addressed is that, like, how could this possibly be? You must be so stupid. And then you realize throughout, like, with the Tinder swindler in particular, like, no, he's just really fucking good at this. Like, he's getting. He's still getting really smart women to do the things he wants him to do. And that film also, I know, had some issues where they were a little worried about legal stuff because he's out. You know, he was like, I think, gonna sue them or what. This really, to me, suffered from this idea that I think that we all agree that this narrator ends up being unreliable, but I don't think the film thinks that we should think that. And I was very frustrated by the fact that we are still. Her story at the end is still being framed as if it's completely the one we should hang our hats on. And there's. I know there's stuff missing here that would have made it more nuanced, more interesting. And then at the end would have had us questioning what we thought it the beginning. And that would have been a thumbs up for me. But I was very frustrated by the fact that the beginning of episode three, there was no turn, and I was still being asked to just hang my hat on this story as if it were absolutely reliable. So I couldn't give it a thumbs up. So I'm a thumb sideways for this one. All right, now it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little something I like to call the crime of the week. A pair of Miami cops are suing because a movie about crooked Miami cops is just too real. The plaintiffs say the Matt Damon Ben Affleck film the Rip has too many real life similarities to a drug case they were involved in. The movie is about two narcotics officers who steal money found through a drug raid and then do a lot of bad things to cover their tracks. The actors acknowledge the plot points were loosely inspired by a 2016 case where officers found $21 million in a drug trafficker's home. Two sergeants who led the investigation are suing. They weren't identified in the film, and the credits include a disclaimer that the story isn't real. Nevertheless, the officers say they've been harmed because friends and colleagues think it's about them. So, panel, seems like you can't write a book or shoot a movie without someone saying it makes them look bad. What is the next movie that will be sued for being too real? Laura Bricker.

[Laura Bricker]

This is so hard. I. I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking it's going to be something about a cult, but we're gonna change the name. Like, Scientology is just gonna be like the story of the cult of Tom Cruise. You know, it's gonna be something where they just, like, try to change. Yeah. And it's just. Yeah, it's gonna be the exact same thing.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What do you think, Toby? What is the next movie that's gonna be sued for being too real?

[Toby Ball]

I think Air bud. Yeah, I could see sued by some dogs, probably.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little bit. Made us look bad. What do you think, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I think Caroline and Sandy are gonna sue. I know what you did last summer. Because it's the same fucking plot.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

It is. I guess it is.

[Kevin Flynn]

Except, you know, the guy with a hook doesn't come, you know, chasing them in the supernatural way. But, yeah, that's basically what they did.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

I think the next big movie that's gonna be sued is the adaptation of Toby's podcast, Strange Arrivals. I think the aliens are gonna be very pissed for being made to look like predators in that movie who kidnapped a lovely couple from New Hampshire. That's what I think think is going to happen.

[Kevin Flynn]

They hope you're indemnified, Toby.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What do you think, Toby?

[Toby Ball]

Yeah, I don't know. I've got an llc, so they can only go after so much.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

All right, Laura Bricker. Folks want to reach out to you on social media and say hello. How can they do that?

[Laura Bricker]

You can find me Araber on Blue sky and Instagram.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Toby? If folks want to see your Spanish adventures, how can they find you online?

[Toby Ball]

Obi Ball 603 on Instagram.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm a Kevin P. Flynn.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

You can follow me everywhere. Eblavoie. Follow the show everywhere at Crimewriters On. That includes TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. But mostly you should join our incredible Facebook group. We will let you in. If you literally know any one of our four names, get everything we make at [e-mail] partnersincrimemedia including the after show, which you can listen to right now. Our theme song was composed and performed by Ty Gibbons. The executive executive producer of this show is Kevin and the editor is me. This show was recorded in the Caitlin Rogers Project studio, also known as Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement where we also take hours of vertical video of ourselves smoking and wandering the Scottish Highlands in a stolen tractor. Right, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Absolutely.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks.

[Kevin Flynn]

Parson we are on behalf of all

[Rebecca LaVoy]

the crime writers, thanks so much for listening. We will catch you later. Paris Harrison.

[Kevin Flynn]

Anybody? Anybody? Start trying like the Scottish accent.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

Hundred percent.

[Toby Ball]

I did a little bit, but then my niece was giving me the side eye.

[Kevin Flynn]

So like, I hear it all the time.

[Rebecca LaVoy]

She's like, you're being racist, Toby. Uncle Toby? Does she call you Uncle Toby?

[Toby Ball]

So she does call me Uncle Toby.

[Ted Danson]

Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes.

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

Why have I asked my H Vac guy I found on angie.com to change

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[Rebecca LaVoy]

I was so amazed at how he replaced our air ducts. I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube.

[Toby Ball]

I think we should call a doctor,

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[Toby Ball]

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