The Mysterious Mr. Epstein

Summary

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Crime Writers On…

Episode: The Mysterious Mr. Epstein

Date: July 9, 2026
Hosts: Rebecca Lavoie, Kevin Flynn, Toby Ball, Laura Bricker
Episode Focus: In this “classic rewind” episode, the panel revisits their October 14, 2019, review of The Mysterious Mr. Epstein, a Wondery podcast about financier and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. The team discusses narrative, reporting, production, and the broader cultural impact of exposing the Epstein case.

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Main Theme & Purpose

The central theme is a critical review of “The Mysterious Mr. Epstein,” Wondery's deep dive into Epstein's background, crimes, accomplices, and the extraordinary privilege and power that shielded him for years. The Crime Writers On… crew explores how the podcast weaves together public scandals, class privilege, and systemic failures with narrative skill, examining both content and production quality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Overall Impressions on the Podcast’s Approach

• Narrative Strength: The group unanimously praises the podcast’s “serious subject” and “straight narrative storytelling” (Kevin Flynn, 05:03).
• Comprehensive Reporting: Hosts note how the show synthesizes disparate news reports and weaves them into a cohesive whole.
  • Rebecca Lavoie (04:52): “It's actually a pretty straight narrative storytelling enterprise... they're going to be doing, you know, a deeper investigation here. And it's not just about... the sex trafficking, but also about his financial background and how he got into this position and the people that covered for him.”

2. The “Mysterious” in Mr. Epstein

• Debate around whether calling Epstein “mysterious” glamorizes him or simply fits the facts.
  • Rebecca Lavoie (05:47): “He is literally very mysterious… nobody knows how this guy got all his money.”
  • Toby Ball (06:30): “I don't think it's that mysterious. But I'm getting ahead of us.”

3. Reporting vs. Sensationalism

• Laura Bricker (07:47): Admits reluctance to give attention to Epstein but finds the reporting “well done.”
• The panel lauds the show for balancing upsetting subject matter with careful journalism and thoughtful narrative.
• Julie Brown, the Miami Herald reporter whose work was pivotal in exposing Epstein, is notably absent from the podcast, possibly due to other projects (Rebecca Lavoie, 09:47).

4. Class Privilege, Morality, and Enabling

• Discussion extends into the ethics of the ultra-wealthy and how social status creates protective bubbles around predators.
  • Toby Ball (08:00): “A lot of people who are very wealthy have sort of a different attitude towards morality... I think that carried over into other facets of Epstein’s life.”
  • The hosts are shocked by accounts of enablers like Les Wexner and social circles that ignored or abetted abuse (09:17, 09:47).
• Notable speculation that Epstein’s power came partly from having leverage on other powerful men (Rebecca Lavoie, 09:47).

5. The “Sweetheart Deal” and Justice System Failures

• Heavy criticism of Epstein’s initial light sentence and “work release,” illuminating the two-tiered justice system.
  • Kevin Flynn (11:25): “There really are two justice systems. There's one for the rich, and there's one for the rest of us.”
• Federal prosecutors complained after-the-fact, but the panel doubts the efficacy of the legal proceedings (11:03–12:06).

6. Epstein’s Backstory and the Power of Ingratiation

• The podcast outlines Epstein’s improbable career ascent: Dalton School teacher (without a college degree) to Bear Stearns, then into the orbit of Manhattan billionaires.
  • Laura Bricker (12:53): "He certainly must have some sort of a talent for...talk[ing] his way into situations...He can sell himself and get himself into these situations where he is able to come across as legitimate, even though he really has no grounds..."
• The panel finds these early episodes most compelling (14:22).
• Kevin Flynn (14:22): “It’s more like the talented Mr. Epstein, and talented in the way that evil way where he can bullshit and survive and groom.”

7. The Open Secret Nature of Epstein’s Crimes

• The podcast highlights the brazenness with which Epstein operated: photos of underage victims in his house and widespread knowledge among both locals and elites.
  • Rebecca Lavoie (14:53): “How not secret any of it is… Like people went to his house and they saw them there... He did not give a shit who knew about this.”
• The defense tactic: “Would it be so open if it was actually illegal?” (15:57)

8. Ghislaine Maxwell: Victim, Perpetrator, or Both?

• The panel wrestles with Maxwell’s complicated role as both abuser and, potentially, a victim due to her father’s own history of sexual abuse.
  • Toby Ball (17:25): “She sort of fits both into victim and perpetrator...Her story seems a little more complicated.”
  • Rebecca Lavoie (18:47): “That story about her father was freaking horrifying.”

9. “Pedophile Island” (Little St. Jeff’s)

• The Epstein private island is discussed as emblematic of the privilege and isolation that allowed abuse to flourish.
  • Laura Bricker (20:41): Shares an anecdote about sailing by Little St. James and learning locals were well aware of Epstein’s reputation.
  • Rebecca Lavoie (21:13): “Not actually a secret, then.”

10. Financial Crimes and Conspiracy

• Surprise over how Epstein's alleged Ponzi scheme never resulted in prosecution and that his enablers or accomplices often got harsher penalties.
  • Kevin Flynn (21:58): “It’s just like a real... either fuck up of the case, or it was by design.”

11. Wondery’s Production Style

• Mixed feelings toward Wondery’s signature “lush” audio style and literal sound effects.
  • Kevin Flynn (25:04): “I kind of rolled my eyes a little bit with some of the sound effects... but it's not disqualifying.”
  • Toby Ball (26:01): “I’m just not sure how it applies to Jeffrey Epstein. He doesn’t seem to have lived a very bluesy life to me.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“There really are two justice systems. There's one for the rich, and there's one for the rest of us.”
— Kevin Flynn, 11:25

“He certainly must have some sort of a talent for... talking his way into situations.”
— Laura Bricker, 12:53

“How not secret any of it is… Like people went to his house and they saw them there... He did not give a shit who knew about this.”
— Rebecca Lavoie, 14:53

“It’s more like the talented Mr. Epstein, and talented in the way that evil way where he can bullshit and survive and groom.”
— Kevin Flynn, 14:22

“She sort of fits both into victim and perpetrator...Her story seems a little more complicated.”
— Toby Ball on Ghislaine Maxwell, 17:25

“Not actually a secret then, you know?”
— Rebecca Lavoie, 21:13

“It's all true, though. It all happened. And it's really easy to get into a headspace where you're like, he must have a pretty fucking incredible black book…”
— Rebecca Lavoie, 22:48

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Important Timestamps

• 01:08 — Episode intro, context, and recap of the Epstein case focus
• 04:52 — Panel’s initial reactions to the podcast’s narrative choices
• 06:30 — Debate over the meaning and appropriateness of the term “mysterious”
• 07:47 — Addressing why the spotlight on Epstein is justified and necessary
• 08:00–09:47 — Class privilege & ethical vacuum among the wealthy, enablers’ roles
• 11:03–12:06 — The sweetheart deal and justice system failures
• 12:53–14:22 — Epstein’s improbable rise and con-man charisma
• 14:53–15:57 — Crimes hiding in plain sight
• 17:25–18:47 — The complexity of Ghislaine Maxwell’s role
• 20:41–21:13 — Little St. James as an open secret
• 21:30–22:47 — Financial crimes and conspiracy theories
• 25:04–26:01 — Wondery production critique
• 29:57–32:39 — Panel’s final review and recommendations

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The Panel’s Verdict

• All hosts give a thumbs-up to The Mysterious Mr. Epstein, citing its investigative rigor, ability to synthesize sprawling reporting, and careful attention to narrative.
  • Laura Bricker (29:57): “This is really well done…an interesting story in terms of looking at the totality of how somebody like this was able to use… privilege to get away with something he should have been put away for long before he was.”
  • Toby Ball (30:29): “…super solid. The journalism’s good. It ticks off all the boxes that we tend to like and avoids all the things that we don’t.”
  • Rebecca Lavoie (30:45): “A good job synthesizing a lot of that reporting and bringing it together into one narrative…My only quibble…is a production quibble.”
  • Kevin Flynn (32:08): “Pulling together all these disparate stories and making one larger narrative about who Jeffrey Epstein was and the troubling issues that his whole case brings up…an important story to hear, even if the details might turn your stomach.”

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Episode Takeaway

The review makes a powerful case for why stories like Epstein’s should not be forgotten. The podcast “The Mysterious Mr. Epstein” is lauded for meticulously threading together a saga of privilege-fueled predation and systemic indifference, while Wondery’s production style, though at times a distraction, does not diminish the reporting’s overall impact. The hosts’ mix of dark humor, moral outrage, and even personal anecdotes bring energy and clarity for listeners new to the topic or seeking perspective on this epochal crime story.

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Transcript

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[Rebecca Lavoie]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 or 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term Only greater than 50gb means slow when network is busy.

[Kevin Flynn]

See terms to get the crime writers on after show right now, go to patreon.com partnersincrimemedia I'm Rebecca Lavoie and this

[Rebecca Lavoie]

is Crime Writers on. Crime Writers on is the original true Crime Review podcast that digs into true crime pop culture, other podcasts, and on this episode, he was the investor to the stars who provided more than just financial advice. How was he able to lure and rape young women with no consequences for so long? We'll revisit our review of the classic true crime podcast the Mysterious Mr. Epstein. Joining me to get that done and more is true crime author, TV journalist and host of these Are Their Stories podcast, my husband and the love of my life, Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

Hello, Rebecca. Happy summer.

Yeah, you too. It's gotten kind of steamy.

It has, it has. And so for folks wondering on Thursdays for the summer, we present a classic rewind episode, fresh episodes on Monday, then sort of best of the best on Thursdays.

All right, so what's coming up in this classic rewind of CWO?

Okay, we're going back to our October 14, 2019 review of the mysterious Mr. Epstein from Wondery and host Lindsey Graham.

Not that Lindsey Graham.

[Kevin Flynn]

No, no.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Isn't that funny?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, I mean, I think we funny ha ha. That funny ha ha.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

But. And just a note for folks, because a couple of these from the summer are from a certain era where it sounds like I have A really bad cold. I don't. It's cancer. But this was before my voice surgery, so if I sound a little funky in this one, that's why. All right, so. But that being said, should we roll the tape?

Let's take a listen.

[Narrator]

In March of 2005, financier Jeffrey Epstein is at a charity benefit in New York City. Wall street titans are in attendance. Rod Stewart is booked to perform. In a photo taken that night, Epstein has his arm around a woman, pulling her head toward his so that his smirking lips grace her temple. Epstein is tan and relaxed and he looks like he doesn't have a care in the world.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

His crime shocked, his punishment outraged, and his death left questions. Wondery's new podcast sets off to answer. Who was millionaire Jeffrey Epstein? Who enabled his child sex trafficking? And why did system favor him over his victims?

[Narrator]

On that same day, 1200 miles south, a 14 year old girl in Palm Beach, Florida gives a statement to the police that will launch an investigation. But maybe Epstein is right not to be worried.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Nobody cared what these women had to say. Their insights were ignored as the the feds and then the state made this case go away.

In the mysterious Mr. Epstein host, Lindsey Graham. No, not the senator. A different Lindsey Graham hopes to fill in the blanks around the infamous investor to the stars origin story and how he was able to lure and rape young women with no consequences for so long. Mr. Epstein should have been looking at potential sentence of 360 years at a minimum. But that's not what happened. Because there was a power dynamic here, wasn't there? This six part series expected to look at Epstein's suicide while in custody and the rumors behind it. The mysterious Mr. Epstein is timely without being rushed. Attempting to pull together the various threads of incomplete news stories into one narrative. Now we will be talking about plot points from three episodes of the mysterious Mr. Epstein. So to stay spoiler free, look for the timecode listed in our show notes. Now, Kevin, you had the same reaction to this podcast that I do initially. There's some strong reporting here and it's actually a pretty straight narrative storytelling enterprise with this podcast.

[Laura Bricker]

Right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I do think it's very solid. I do like Lindsey Graham's. I'm going to laugh the whole time I say it.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

It's an unfortunate, it's an unfortunate coincidence. It's not your fault, Lindsey Graham, that you have the same name as Lindsey Graham.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes. Yeah, I mean, Kevin Flynn is also the lead character in Tron. We'll just, we're just gonna push through on That I do like his. His voice and his delivery gets. That gives a certain amount of gravitas to the podcast because it is, you know, a serious subject when you're talking about the crimes here. I also buy into it when he says they're going to be doing, you know, a deeper investigation here. And it's not just about what happened with the sex trafficking, but also about, like, his financial background and how he got into this position and the people that they covered for him. And, you know, I think the mysterious Mr. Epstein is a very apt title for this story.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I do too. And a couple of our listeners on our Facebook group complained about the title, saying it sort of glamorizes him, the word mysterious. And I'm like, actually, no, he's literally very mysterious.

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, what do you think mysterious means?

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I know. I think it's sort of seen as like, like sexy mysterious, which I don't

[Kevin Flynn]

think is wrong kind of mysterious.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I don't think it is. Like, nobody knows how this guy got all of his money. Like, no one knows.

[Toby]

It's the international man of mystery, I think is the.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Exactly. That's the implication. But literally, he is a mysterious guy. I mean, he's ability to get jobs without any formal college education, his ability to, you know, just move into that dude's giant mansion in New York and just claim that it's his. And how that's okay. I mean, there's a lot of actual mystery there that I think makes it an appropriate title as well.

[Toby]

I don't think it's that mysterious.

[Kevin Flynn]

No.

[Toby]

But I'm getting ahead of us. Go ahead.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Sorry.

Now, Lara, you sent me a note. You said you also expected a podcast when the Epstein story broke, but you didn't want to give him the attention of listening to one. What do you think when you're actually listening to this? Are you glad you're giving it that attention?

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah, Well, I mean, like I said, I definitely. When this broke, I was like, this guy is such a asshole. I don't even wanna give this guy any sort of focus. I mean, he is just. The things he's done are horrible. But I kind of was like, someone's gonna do a podcast. Given all that, I was like, oh, we're gonna listen to that? Great. I really didn't want to because I felt like this was gonna be pretty upsetting. But it's very well done and it's well reported, it's well produced. They've got a lot of interesting. And the background about him working at the private school. I thought was really interesting details, especially the one student who sort of early on flagged that something was going on and was not listened to, which mirrors a lot of the stories we've heard in recent years, like at private schools and public schools with teachers that have been brought up on, you know, long overdue sexual assault charges. So I won't say I'm glad I listened, but I'm gonna say it's. It's pretty well done.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Toby, you sent me an interesting note about how this podcast, and I think just any sort of reporting around this story seems like an indictment of the ethics of a lot of rich people, not just Epstein. What do you mean by that?

[Toby]

Yeah, and I mean, I think that's what I was kind of hinting at when I said I didn't think it was all that surprising, like, how he managed to worm his way into these situations. There's that book, the Psychopath in the Boardroom. Right. And I think a lot of people who are very wealthy have sort of a different attitude towards morality or whatever. So that Epstein probably seems like a real sort of go get him guy when they meet him. And it's like a chip off the old block. Like, he's sort of an amoral, somewhat psychotic guy who's just going to be super aggressive in pursuing money, whether it's for him or for other people, like his various patrons. And I think that carries over into other facets of his life. And I thought, to me, in some ways, the most. I guess it wasn't shocking, but the most, how the hell does this happen? Is the fact that Len Wexner, guy from the Limited, is like, completely enabling him to basically kidnap this artist woman and hold her hostage in this mansion.

[Kevin Flynn]

That was the craziest story. That was the craziest one.

[Toby]

I mean, if I knew that Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile five years ago, six years ago, I mean, there's no way Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz, all these people who associate with him, they must know, and yet they're willing to go past it. And I think it has to do with sort of this idea that that kind of morality is for other people.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Yeah, well, there's a lot of speculation, and we can speculate because Jeffrey Epstein is now dead, but there's a lot of speculation even before his death, after he was arrested, about the source of his wealth potentially being that a lot of these rich billionaire guys that he associates with also have some of the same predilections he does. And he, you know, potentially was hooking him up. And Then, you know, they were buying his silence with money. I mean, that's kind of out there. And I think that's something that reporter Julie Brown is continuing to dig into as she sort of continues to investigate the story. I have quibbles about the podcast in terms of, like, production and stuff. The one voice that I really wish was in it, but I'm certain there's a reason why, is Julie Brown, the Miami Herald reporter who did a lot of the reporting that exposed the story of Epstein's sweetheart deal and kind of, you know, really brought this story into the mainstream in a lot of ways. Her editor's in it, which is great. And the reason I think she's not in it, I'm guessing, Kevin, I could be wrong, but I'm probably right that she's probably doing something else, right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Probably has probably a book deal or something.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, something like that.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Kevin, getting back to that sweetheart deal, what do you think of that deal? The fact that he was, you know, basically sentenced to own almost nothing. Sentenced, what, like 18 months? He didn't even serve that. And then he was able to leave every day to go to this fake job.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Laura Bricker]

Anyway. Home.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. The idea that, you know, that there's this little bit, like, in the story before they get that about how he got out. Lawyered is how the defense team put it, you know, with. They didn't, like, just give us a deal. We just did a better job of defending him to get all the federal charges brushed aside in exchange for.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

It's all bullshit.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah. I mean, it'll. And I'll just say, at least give the career prosecutors in that office, the federal prosecutors, some credit for complaining later when they found out how I wasn't even, like, really staying in the jail. But that whole story about. I. I mean, you know, there really are two justice systems. There's one for the rich, and there's one for the rest of us. And that's just, like, the most brazen example, you know, I mean, certainly there was, you could say, oh, there was a big donation made to the sheriff's office. That might explain some of what was going on on the state side, I think it's still unclear why the federal government backed off on that.

[Toby]

Didn't even tell the victims that they're

[Rebecca Lavoie]

making a deal, which is illegal. Let's talk about the backstory that we get. I mean, the podcast is promising to give us more of the Epstein backstory than we've gotten in reporting so far, at least putting it together in a more complete way. Laura, what do you think about Epstein's background? Never graduated college yet got a job teaching at a very prestigious private school in New York where a couple of my nieces went by the. My sister's ex step kids attended Dalton School. So I'm like, oh, that actually is a very fancy school. And then, you know, his. Was it Bear Stearns, the investment firm where he worked, and, you know, his ability to sort of get jobs, obviously he's bright. Obviously he's good at math and physics because you can't just teach those classes without knowing a little about the subject.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

What'd you think about how the podcast handled that backstory, Steph?

[Laura Bricker]

Definitely this is one of the stories that when it broke in the news, first of all, I was like, super. Like, okay, this woman from the Miami Herald is a hero for breaking this story. Like, she's fucking amazing. But I also didn't. I was like, this is. I don't want to watch too much of this. I don't want to listen. So it was really interesting to listen to the way that he was able to sort of weasel his way into these situations and pull it off. You know, this sort of, you know, I'll call it like a con man sort of ability to kind of talk his way into situations. And especially at the school where it was like, it didn't even sound like they checked out his background too much because they were so impressed by the fact that he was so smart at math, and they really couldn't find people to teach those subjects, and that he could do both of them was like, oh, that's a bonus. But then the way that he used that to sort of ingratiate himself with the parents of his students, who then would be able to get him to the next level? Definitely, when you hear about somebody like this and you hear about everything that he's been able to pull off, he certainly must have some sort of a talent for. I mean, I. You know, like the used car salesman thing. Like, he can sell himself and get himself into these situations where he, you know, is able to come across as legitimate, even though he really has no grounds for doing anything that he's doing. So that. That was actually the episode that I liked the most. I really did not like listening to some of the other episodes that were a little more graphic in terms of the abuse. But the backstory was very interesting.

[Kevin Flynn]

You know, what it enlightens for me is that maybe this isn't the mysterious Mr. Epstein. It's more like the talented Mr. Epstein, and talented in the way that evil way where he can bullshit and survive and groom. You know, there are other people in the world with the same predilection, but they don't also have that kind of drive and luck and skill to put themselves in a position where they are millionaires and have their own private island and shit like that.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

You know what's crazy to me is how not secret any of it is. And this is the thing, and this is the thing that differentiates like rich people committing crimes from not rich people committing crimes. Like Jeffrey Epstein had pictures of his underage victims hanging in his house. Like it was not a secret he had them hanging in his house. Like people went to his house and they saw them there. And you know, he would talk about like enjoying massages from like young people. He was paying high school students to recruit other high school students to come to his house so that he could force them to massage him and coerce them into these sex acts. High school students are not known for their discretion. Like he did not give a shit who knew about this. It was just like way out in the open. And of course the defense for that is always like, well, would it be so open if it was actually I was actually committing this crime? That's always a defense that rich people do, right? Yeah, but it reminds me a lot of like, you know, even looking at the, you know, the rich parents and the college scandal, like the richer they are, the more brazen they are and the less contrite they seem to be. Like, it's crazy.

[Kevin Flynn]

Like the richer you get, entitled people feel entitled.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Yeah, I guess that's true. I guess that's true. All right, well, I want to talk about another character that is an important part of the Epstein story and that is his one time girlfriend, or perhaps on again, off again girlfriend. Certainly co conspirator in some ways. That's Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Narrator]

It's a cloudy day in the fall of 1991. A group of reporters is crowded onto a dock at Tenerife, the largest of the Canary Islands. They are standing beside a 180 foot yacht with microphones and notepads in hand as they eagerly await a statement. A brown haired woman wearing a red plaid suit and dangly gold earrings emerges from the yacht's cabin. She's somber but composed as she strides down the deck to face the assembled reporters.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I also want to take this opportunity to thank all the many hundreds of

people

who have sent messages of support to us at this very, very sad time. Toby, what are your thoughts on Max. I mean, she's somebody the media is very interested in. Now, she was recently tracked down, you know, staying at a friend's house. And was it outside of Boston or something, or in la? She was photographed, like, eating a burger or something like that. She certainly still manages to be in the news, but she's an important part of the story. What do you think of her as a character?

[Toby]

She's one of the few people in this who seems like she sort of fits both into victim and perpetrator, I guess so. She's a little more complicated in that. But her father, who was this very rich English guy who apparently was also a pedophile. I don't know how that could not be damaging with how open that seemed to be, where her father would, after lunch, have young girls come into his office or something, and he'd close the door and lock it from inside, and then give them presents afterwards, knowing that that's going on, and then somehow ending up in a relationship with another guy who's a pedophile, and then becoming sort of enthralled to him to the point where he apparently likes his women thin, which I fear means pubescent, that she starves herself, or at least she says she does, and then she ends up being sort of a procuress for him. And then, you know, in that one story from the mansion in Ohio, you know, kind of joins in with the abuse. So she seems like a very sad story, which is not to give her an excuse for the things that she did, but her story seems a little more complicated.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I agree with you. Her story seems more complicated. When I heard the story about her father, that was freaking horrifying. And certainly to sort of be stuck in a cycle where you end up with somebody who is basically doing the same kind of abuse you were subjected to as a kid, it's not very hard to connect the dots. That story, by the way, of that girl who says she was assaulted by Ghislaine as well as Epstein, is horrifying. And I just want to clarify one thing. I just referred to her as a character, and that's something we say a lot on this podcast. And I've gotten a few emails about this in the last couple months. When we talk about people as characters, we're talking about where they play in the story that we're talking about on the show, like how they're used in the narrative. And, yes, real people can also be characters in a narrative. Right, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Right. So just to clarify that, we're not trying to in any way lessen the real.

[Kevin Flynn]

We're using nonfiction nomenclature and not the kind that you would use if you were.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Exactly.

[Kevin Flynn]

A prosecutor or a victim advocate or something like that.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Exactly. Speaking of something that's almost too crazy to be believed, Pedophile island, apparently.

Oh, my God.

Oh, God.

[Narrator]

A year after the assault in Santa Monica, a Wexner controlled entity buys Epstein's Ohio mansion back from him. The sale price is 8 million over double what Epstein had paid for the property a few years earlier. Around the same time, Epstein purchases an island in the Caribbean for roughly the same price. In effect, Epstein sells Wexner a property Wexner himself originally built and makes enough money on the deal to buy his own private island. The island's called Little St. James, but Epstein calls it Little St. Jeff's instead. The islands will become a kingdom run by its own laws and its own morality. And Epstein's abuse of young girls and women is about to become a lot more brazen.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Lara, apparently you've had a close call with Pedophile Island.

What?

I have?

[Laura Bricker]

Yes.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Well, she's seen it. I mean, she's seen it from the year.

[Laura Bricker]

I don't know if you all recall. No. When I was off with the legally blind sailing captain in the Virgin Islands last year, and we were sailing.

[Kevin Flynn]

So you saw it, but he didn't?

[Laura Bricker]

No. And he said to me, he said, we have our two billionaires down here. We have the pedophile over there. And he pointed out the island and he said, and then we have, like, Kenny Chesney, who's done some good stuff for us after the hurricane, and we like him.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

So not. Not actually a secret then, you know?

[Laura Bricker]

No, they all knew it. The locals down there really didn't like him, and they had a lot of negative feelings towards him.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

So here's something I didn't know about Jeffrey Epstein that I feel like I should have known, but I guess a lot of this reporting just hasn't been in one place before for me to consume it all at the same time that he also is apparently guilty of perpetrating a huge ass Ponzi scheme and was never prosecuted for it.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

What's up with that?

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't know. That's what makes this story so interesting.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Thoughts, Toby?

[Toby]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm interested in finding out. My initial sort of conspiratorial thought is that he probably hooked up somebody somewhere in the process with a young girl. And it's like, it'd be better if I didn't go to Jail for you. Yeah, but it is kind of weird. And then the guy who was kind of his associate in this ends up doing a lot of jail time.

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I forget that guy's name, but if he's. If he's talking to the grand jury and giving up Epstein, you know, it sounds like that what the prosecutors are trying to do is give him some consideration and Epstein is the actual target. And so the way that that guy ends up going to jail and Epstein apparently never gets charged, it's just like a real either fuck up of the case or it was by design. Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

This guy has friends in high places. He just does.

[Kevin Flynn]

I mean, I don't think, though. I think at this time in his life, this is Pre Wexler and Pre being, you know, with the very upper crust. It seems like this was a, you know, a mid level Ponzi scheme that he was. This was the source of his seed money. Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

But he's still with friends with rich people.

[Kevin Flynn]

Rich enough, I suppose.

[Laura Bricker]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I mean, I. I don't know. It's really easy to get into, like, crazy conspiracy land when you talk about this, except that a lot of it has borne out and turned out to be completely true. Like if you were to say about somebody, oh, there's a guy who is a prolific pedophile, did it for decades, got, you know, a super easy deal that somebody high up in the government clearly, like, arranged for him and was able to just, like, go out to a fake job every day and like, pick up right where he left off, being a pedophile when he was no longer in jail, like nobody cared and, you know, had a private island. Or he, like, you'd be like, that's. That sounds crazy. It sounds like Pizzagate stuff. It's all true, though. It all happened. And it's really easy to get into a headspace where you're like, he must have a pretty fucking incredible black book, and he must have an incredible set of friends in high places or enemies in high places who'd rather people not know what he knows about them. I don't know. It's impossible to not think that. Right, right. I wanted to mention one thing, Kevin. We've never reviewed this episode on our podcast about Law and Order. The episode about Jeffrey Epstein that came out, what, in like, 2011?

[Kevin Flynn]

I don't recall it, but I know you do.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Yes, it is a. There's an episode that came out, I want to say, in like, 2011, 2012, about Jeffrey Epstein that tracks so closely with the real story. It's called Flight. It's an SVU episode and if anyone is interested in just sort of comparing how ripped from the headlines it was,

[Kevin Flynn]

like teen models massaging the guy.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

It was, it tracked so closely. It tracked so closely with what ended up being the real, you know, evidence that they were talking about, the prosecutors were talking about after he was arrested that it's really amazing because, you know, a lot of those episodes of svu, Kevin, like they are right from the headlines. Ish. That one was really, really dead. It's really, really crazy.

[Kevin Flynn]

They did find replace in the script. They just took out Epstein and put in Mr. Jones.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Yeah. Now one last thing I just want to poll you guys about. We reviewed a lot of Wondery podcasts on the show. I think they vary in quality, but I think it sounds like we all kind of in agreement. This one is more straight, more reported, but it is very wondery also. And they have their own unique production style with. They always have the sort of a rock and roll theme song. They have some other sonic elements. Kevin, where are you on the Wondery style? You would still know this was a wondery show if you didn't know it, right?

[Kevin Flynn]

Yeah, I would. High production value, very lush. I mean I, I kind of rolled my eyes a little bit with some of the, you know, sound effects of any walk, open the door and walked in, you know, that kind of stuff.

[Narrator]

They drive down a dead end street and park in front of a two story pink house. Then they walk down the driveway past a guardhouse, through the kitchen door once.

[Kevin Flynn]

But it's not disqualifying for me. I do believe Wondry has decided they have a sound and that they are going, they're leaning into that. You know, maybe, you know, it's going to be that without even knowing about it, just by listening you'd be able to identify a Wondery product. They've also gotten very good at story selection recently and have had a couple of really good podcasts.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Well, it helps this one that this one has actual like a lot of journalism in it too, right? I mean, isn't that make you forgive the discordant blues soundtrack a little bit? Because Toby, you don't really like the blues soundtrack either. Right.

[Toby]

I'm just not sure how it applies to Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah, he doesn't seem to have lived a very bluesy life to me.

[Laura Bricker]

Wash my hands in mud water.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

So Kevin, who's the next sponsor for this fine podcast?

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[Kevin Flynn]

Wait, wait, wait.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I mean elevated. But we don't know you just ordered more stuff from Quince.

Did you see the package upstairs? His pair of pants.

Oh, that's.

I was European linen pants. I had to try them because they're a new style.

Oh man. Oh man.

Sorry.

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[Rebecca Lavoie]

It's time to poll the panel. Would you recommend to our listeners that they check out the mysterious Mr. Epstein from Wondery? It is a very popular podcast. Laura Bricker, I'm gonna start with you. Thumb thumbs down for this show.

[Laura Bricker]

I'm gonna go with thumbs up. Not that like I said, I was originally like, I don't want to give this guy any attention. Nobody should do a podcast about him. He sucks, he's an asshole, all that stuff. But this is really well done. It's interesting. It does give some backstory and it is an interesting story in terms of looking at the totality of how somebody like this was able to use, you know, sort of his privilege to get away with something that he should have been put away for long before he was.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Toby, what about you? Thumbs up or thumbs down for the mysterious Mr. Epstein?

[Toby]

I give it a thumbs up. I think it's super solid. The journalism's good. It ticks off all the boxes that we tend to like and avoids all the things that we don't. It's kind of an interesting story and it also, it's very relevant right now. So thumbs up.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

I'm giving it a thumbs up as well. I think a podcast like this does a good service to a podcasting audience who may not be reading one article here in the Washington Post and one article here from the Miami Herald and one article here from the New York Times. And you know what I mean. So it does a good job synthesizing a lot of that reporting and bringing it together into one narrative, which is a good service to bring to an audience. And I think that a podcast is a great place to do original reporting but then also kind of pull together elements from other story. My only quibble about this show is A production quibble. As Kevin mentioned, I'm not a big fan of the very literal background sounds as I walk down the sidewalk to the door and hearing the step, step, step, squeaky, squeaky door. Not a huge fan of that. Also not a huge fan of when a narrator in a voiceover is quoting something and then they add, like, a special effect to his voice and go from him to him with a special effect that's just like, panning back and

[Kevin Flynn]

forth left to right.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Not a huge, huge fan of that, like, way of doing it. But other than that, I have to say I was really, really surprised by how good the mysterious Mr. Epstein is. I plan to continue listening. I want to know more about the stuff. I really, really hope they continue telling that part of the story. And of course, I want to know what they can dig up around that alleged suicide after he was in jail. So I'm going to do listening thumbs up for me. What about you, Kevin?

[Kevin Flynn]

I'm also a thumbs up. Wondery has been doing a great job upping their game. You know, right on the heels of Joe Exotic coming out with a really substantive, timely podcast and pulling together the story in sort of the. Probably for the first time in this. Certainly in this format, but pulling together all these disparate stories and making one larger narrative about who Jeffrey Epstein was and the troubling issues that his whole case brings up. I do really enjoy Lindsey Graham as a announcer and as a journalist.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Sorry, every time they say Lindsey Graham, I'm like, what?

[Kevin Flynn]

Well, anyway, I think Lindsey Graham's doing a great job. He certainly has the kind of delivery and the presence, this audio presence that really elevates the storytelling. And I have a lot of faith in what he's putting forward. The mysterious Mr. Epstein, I think, is an important story to hear, even if the details might turn your stomach.

[Rebecca Lavoie]

Well, that was interesting, man.

Can you just. It's just so funny how back in 2019, I don't want to say how little we knew, but how this story continues to blossom and just kind of fascinate us even all this time later.

It shouldn't go away, and it hasn't gone away. And I think that's really interesting.

And who thought that, you know, the least political part of this would be that somebody named Lindsey Graham was the host?

Good job on this one, Lindsey.

Yeah.

All right. Well, this show was recorded in Studio C, the closet in our New Hampshire basement, where we also listen to the advice of Captain Phil and go instead to Kenny Chesney's island on behalf of all the crime writers. Thanks so much for listening. We will catch you.

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