Attack of the Beard Cutters!

Summary

CrimeLess, "Attack of the Beard Cutters!" (Dec 31, 2025)

Podcast: CrimeLess (iHeartPodcasts + Smartless Media)
Hosts: Rory Scoville (comedian), Josh Dean (true crime journalist)
Producer/Co-Host: Lane Rose
Theme: Is forcibly cutting someone’s hair — or beard, or cat’s fur — a crime? A surprisingly wild and funny deep-dive into bizarre crimes revolving around unauthorized grooming, from an Amish beard-cutting hate crime to a spree of mysterious cat shavings in England.

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Episode Overview

In this irreverent, hilarious, and surprisingly educational episode, hosts Rory and Josh tackle the question: Is it a crime to forcibly cut off someone’s beard or hair—and what about if that someone is a cat? They begin by riffing on the hijinks of beard sabotage before delving into the infamous 2011 “Amish beard cutting attacks” in Ohio (“one of the dumbest crimes we’ve ever covered,” says Josh). The hosts then detour across the Atlantic for a spree of cat-shaving attacks in England, and conclude with a delightfully absurd exploration of a real-life Amish musical, complete with assassination plot twist.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Beard Cutting a Crime? Setup and Icebreakers

• The hosts banter about the idea of having their own beards or mustaches forcibly shaved.
  • Rory: “If we lived in the same city and I snuck up on you and, like, shaved half your mustache off, you’d probably punch me. But would you call the cops?” (01:40)
  • The conversation sets up the theme: when is unwanted hair removal actually a crime?
• Transition to the true story: a real-life crime involving mass beard-cutting within an Amish community.

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2. The Amish Beard-Cutting Conspiracy (03:41–17:29)

Setup:

• Event: On Feb 8, 2013, 16 members of an Amish group in Ohio were sentenced for hate crimes after orchestrating attacks—where beards and head hair were forcibly cut from other Amish individuals.
• Mastermind: Their bishop leader, Sam Mullet Sr.—“from the extremely on-the-nose department,” jokes Josh (04:24).

Amish Facial Hair and Religious Custom (05:21–08:41)

• Why do Amish men grow beards? It's biblically inspired, a symbol of masculinity and marriage.
  • Josh: “Amish see the beard as a symbol of masculinity. Apparently, beards are mentioned 19 times in the Bible.” (06:41)
• Why no mustaches? Stems from pacifism; 19th-century military men wore mustaches, so Amish prohibited them to reject militarism.
  • Rory: “So the Amish are a little more rebellious than we have ever been led to believe.” (08:10)

The Crime

• Details: Sam Mullet led a breakaway group near Bergholz, Ohio. Amid religious feuding and contentious family disputes, he orchestrated five separate beard and hair assaults on fellow Amish between Sept and Nov 2011.

• Beard-cutting incidents: Women and men attacked their own relatives and community members—some yanked from bed, others publicly shamed.

  • Rory: “I bet it is really fun to just shave off a massive beard.” (11:02)
  • Josh: “It's like a topiary, right?” (11:17)

• Cultish aspects: Sam Mullet reportedly enforced bizarre punishments, including paddling and making “errant” men sleep in chicken coops.

  • “Sam does not know fully... he’s just trying everything. Throw every noodle at the wall, let’s see what sticks.” – Rory (12:56)

Legal Aftermath

• Federal prosecution: Hate crimes charges (religion-based); DOJ prosecuted under civil rights law.
• Sentences: Sam Mullet got 15 years; others got 1–7 years.
  • U.S. attorney Stephen Dettelbach: “These were violent, religiously motivated home invasions that left the victims bloody, bruised and beaten.” (15:14)
  • Judge Dan Aaron Pollster: “You deserve the longest and harshest sentence. Sadly, I consider you are a danger to the community.” (15:57)
  • Rory: “I gotta say, that’s impressive. I don’t know that I saw 15 coming.” (16:10)
• Community reaction: Some saw the acts as “just haircuts”; others called the Mullet group a cult.

The Comic / Cultural Angle

• Detour into possibilities for an Amish mafia drama or true crime movie: “He springs from jail and it’s called Rum Springer.” – Rory, joking about combining Amish coming-of-age (“Rumspringa”) with prison drama. (16:46)

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3. The Cat Shaving Epidemics: U.S. and U.K. (21:30–31:17)

The American Case (23:17)

• Lead-in: A segment about cats whose stomachs were mysteriously shaven in Waynesboro, Virginia—seven different cats, over months; abductor returned the cats after the deed.
  • “Someone’s going around a small Virginia city abducting pet cats, shaving them, and then returning them…” (23:17)
• Owner reactions: Some cats became reclusive after.
• Police confusion: No crime clearly identified, police muse that perpetrators may have been checking for spay/neuter scars (24:36).

The British Case (25:00)

• Scope: Over 50 reports of “disturbing…attacks” (cat shavings) across southeast England; later over 100 confirmed cases stretching as far as Scotland (27:40).
• Accent humor: The hosts gently mock how the British news coverage feels more serious (“That accent alone gives so much more credence to, like, the nightly news…this is real news.” – Rory, 25:29)
• Expressions of empathy: Even cat-averse Rory is drawn in: “I don’t even like cats, and I’m here defending cats. And not just these cats, the musical cats, anything involving cats.” (27:29)
• Theories & Theatrics: Cops speculate an elderly woman once did it; the hosts propose other possibilities — is it marking cats for later harm? But no solid theory is found.
• Police statement: “This is not a bit of fun and needs to stop now.” – British police, prompting Rory to deliver it in his own British accent (30:56).
• Comic suggestion: “Hire that Don’t F*** With Cats team from that documentary.” (Josh, 31:24)

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4. Lane’s Game: The Amish Musical Rabbit Hole (32:03–41:52)

Amish Country Tourism & “Josiah for President” (32:29)

• Lane shares a personal aside: growing up near Sugar Creek, Ohio (“the gateway to Amish country”) where a 500-seat theater features a musical called Josiah for President.
  • Billboard: Amish man in front of the White House with a horse and buggy.
  • Plot: Amish man gets drafted by a politician to run for president on a “plain truth” platform.

Musical’s Surreal Plot & Audience Reviews (35:14)

• Rory reads a real review in a over-the-top Southern accent about the reviewer’s begrudging, but rapturous, experience seeing Josiah for President (“…I would give this one 100 out of 100 likes.” 36:39).

Guess-the-Twist Game (37:41)

• Lane quizzes the hosts: What is the “very intriguing twist” at the end of the musical?
  • Options: A) Josiah’s criminal past is revealed; B) Josiah resigns under church pressure; C) Josiah is assassinated by a blogger named Stormcloud44.
  • Correct answer: C — Josiah is assassinated at the end, dying in his wife’s arms, and she refuses to ride in the ambulance because she is Amish (40:25).
  • “None of them sound 100 out of 100.” – Rory (39:50)
• Fantasies of a Josiah movie adaptation starring Rory as the Amish protagonist.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If you can catch an owl, you have fully earned the right to dunk them a couple times.” – Rory (01:05)
• “Their beards were attacked. Shorn.” – Josh, introducing the core news story (02:34)
• “Sam Mullet. Yes, his real name.” – Josh (04:24)
• “It’s a sin to shave [a beard] off. But here’s an important caveat: married men. Single Amish dudes do not grow beards.” – Josh (06:41)
• “The longer the beard, the more…seriously religious.” – Rory (05:51)
• “The Mullet way.” – Multiple times, referring to both the leader’s name and the style of meting out justice (09:58, 10:01)
• “These were violent, religiously motivated home invasions that left the victims bloody, bruised, and beaten.” – U.S. Attorney Stephen Dettelbach (15:14)
• “I gotta say, that’s impressive. I don’t know that I saw 15 [years in prison] coming.” – Rory (16:10)
• “It’s got a serial killer vibe to it, with no murder.” – Rory (29:32), on the British cat shave spree
• “This is not a bit of fun and needs to stop now.” – British police statement, performed by Rory in a mock accent (30:59)
• “For an old country redneck not into musical plays, I would give this one 100 out of 100 likes.” – Quoted musical review, read by Rory (36:39)
• “Josiah is assassinated by a blogger named Stormcloud44.” – Lane, reading the true twist of the musical (40:25)
• “She does not ride in the ambulance…because she is Amish and it is a car.” – Lane (39:27)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro, mustache banter — 01:26–02:26
• Amish crime setup — 03:41
• Amish beard/hair religious history — 05:21–08:41
• Beard-cutting crime details, trial — 08:41–14:32
• Sentencing and aftermath — 14:32–17:29
• Cat shaving in Virginia — 21:30–24:43
• Cat shaving in England — 25:00–31:17
• Lane’s Game: Amish musical rabbit hole — 32:03–41:52

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Tone & Style

• Irreverent & Comic: The hosts consistently riff, joke, and riff off even the bleakest material, balancing true crime exploration with sharp wit and improv energy.
• Educational: Despite a comedic lens, the episode dispenses real, sometimes surprising, information about Amish culture, legal nuances, and criminal motivation.
• Self-Aware: Frequent asides, media meta-jokes, and playful breaking of the fourth wall (“We would have gotten letters if we didn’t mention Rumspringa…”).

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Summary Takeaway

This episode of CrimeLess serves up one of the strangest hate crimes in recent years—a wave of beard-chopping within the Amish community—using it as a springboard for an offbeat yet enlightening investigation into unauthorized grooming as crime, and an affectionate roast of everything from American law enforcement confusion to British news gravity to the peculiar phenomena of Amish musicals. Listeners will laugh, learn, and come away with some very specific (and hilarious) party trivia about beards, pacifism, and the dangers of “extremely creative” criminals.

Transcript

[Lane Rose]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Rory Scoville]

Guaranteed Human.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with a basic business plan, just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Dean]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.

[Rory Scoville]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff, here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast shell game on iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Graves]

Hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of the Butcher of Moss, the unbelievable story of a terrifying series of sadistic murders and a quest to find the killer three decades later. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription, available exclusive exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Rory Scoville]

If you can catch an owl, you have fully earned the right to dunk them a couple times.

[Lane Rose]

Campsite Media smart.

[Rory Scoville]

Less media.

[Josh Dean]

Rory, in this lighting, it's a little hard for me to tell. Do you still have your mustache?

[Rory Scoville]

I do, but I haven't had a shoot for a few days, so it's kind of filling in.

[Josh Dean]

Well, considering that today's episode is extremely relevant content for you and your facial hair.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, good.

[Josh Dean]

So here goes. If we lived in the same city and I snuck up on you and, like, shaved half your mustache off, you'd probably punch me, and I'd deserve it. But would you also call the cops?

[Rory Scoville]

No.

[Josh Dean]

I haven't committed a crime.

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, I know you. You're not a stranger.

[Josh Dean]

So, okay, let's imagine that I was a stranger.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, no. I kill you. I kill you.

[Josh Dean]

And I shave half of your mustache. Are you calling the cops or you deal with it in your own way?

[Lane Rose]

I.

[Rory Scoville]

You're asking a comic. So there's a part of me that really appreciates the effort and the hijinks. I don't know. I actually don't know if I would call the cops. I don't know. That does seem extreme. But that is also an absurd thing to do to somebody I don't know.

[Josh Dean]

Well, I ask because a version of this happened. And not just to one comedian in Denver. To numerous people. Amish people in Ohio.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, Here we go.

[Josh Dean]

Their beards were attacked. Shorn. Which raises one of the most important questions in the extremely long history of Crimeless, America's foremost podcast for the analysis of nuanced criminal justice issues.

[Rory Scoville]

That's right.

[Josh Dean]

One of those burning questions, I think, that haunts nearly every every American. Is it a crime to cut someone's hair without their permission? And what if that person is a cat?

[Rory Scoville]

God, that's all this is. Great. For some reason, I feel like if it's a cat, it's more of a crime.

[Josh Dean]

Woefully, I would say, shamefully undercovered. Matter of unauthorized grooming after the break. Hello and welcome back to Crimeless, the podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. I'm Josh Dean.

[Rory Scoville]

And I am Rory Scoville.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, Rory.

[Lane Rose]

Yes.

[Josh Dean]

When it's time to lose your state cop stash, how are you going to do it?

[Rory Scoville]

You know what? I'm going to blend it back in. I don't want to shave it off. I'm going to grow the beard back around it so it gets to hide amongst its peers.

[Josh Dean]

I know you're on the edge of your seat waiting for this week's top story. And here it is. On February 8, 2013, the FBI press office proudly reported the end of a wild conspiracy in northeastern Ohio. And I quote, 16 individuals were sentenced today for hate crimes involving attacks against Amish residents in Ohio, some carried out by the victim's children. And the group's leader received a 15 year prison term. In response to a religious dispute among members of an amish community. The 66 year old Bishop of an Amish congregation in Bergholz, Ohio, directed his followers to forcibly cut the hair and beards of other members of the Amish faith. Oh, and I omitted one bit of information from that second paragraph because I didn't want you to gloss over it.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

The name of the mastermind behind this ring of ruthless beard choppers. His name from the extremely on the nose department is Samuel Mullet Sr. Yep.

[Rory Scoville]

For good. Good.

[Josh Dean]

Also named in the case were Johnny Mullet, which is just an all timer of a fake name to use.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, that just seems like a kid who started smoking cigarettes at about nine years old.

[Josh Dean]

So we got Johnny Mullet, Lester Mullet and Daniel Mullet, in addition to Samuel Mullet. Then there were a variety of Millers, a couple Shrocks and a Burk holder. First of all, this is an adjudicated matter, so I can say with confidence that the 16 people convicted in this case did what the government Claimed they cut beards by force. Okay. The jury heard the evidence and found them all guilty in the fall of 2012. So we're not falsely accusing anyone here of beard cutting. And before I get into the details, though, I gotta ask you a question. Do you know why the Amish grow those extremely long kind of unruly beards?

[Rory Scoville]

I don't know the reason for it, unless it's just, hey, this is a signifier that you're in our group.

[Josh Dean]

It's because of the Bible, basically. Okay. Which isn't to say that this is a particularly Christian quirk either. I'm going to make a gross generalization here and risk cancellation by numerous global religions.

[Rory Scoville]

I love getting brought down with other people. Please go ahead.

[Josh Dean]

No, but you can often tell how fundamentalists. Strict I'm. Dare I say unfun. A religious group is by the unruliness of their beards. Like, the longer the beard, the more.

[Rory Scoville]

Seriously religious, the more committed they are to the religion. Do you think there's any chance any of the Amish got their beards shorn and were like, oh, my God, I look great. Like they had any moment. Like there's any epiphany of like, oh, my God, look who's underneath there.

[Josh Dean]

I haven't seen that guy in years.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God, look who's been hiding under that face blanket. Wow. And I think that's the voice of a lot of Amish people. When you think Amish person, you're like, oh, my God.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. I mean, if they look like Civil war soldiers who are abandoned in a remote cave or Tom Hanks and castaway, probably a tough hang.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah, definitely a tough hang. For sure.

[Josh Dean]

Those are the kind of people who would disapprove of many of your habits.

[Lane Rose]

Yes.

[Rory Scoville]

I think your theory is correct.

[Josh Dean]

So the Amish see the beard as a symbol of masculinity. Apparently, beards are mentioned 19 times in the Bible. Okay. And the founder of the Amish sect, Joseph Amman. I guess that's where we get the term Amish. He decided it was God's will to grow a beard, and it's a sin to shave one off. But there's an important caveat. Married men, single Amish dudes, do not grow beards, which makes it very easy for the ladies.

[Lane Rose]

Oh.

[Josh Dean]

So, no, you can't. Like, there's no excuse. Like, I didn't know he was married. Yeah. That was my Amish voice, by the way.

[Rory Scoville]

That was actually.

[Josh Dean]

Really? How do you know he was married? Oh, I didn't know.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God, this is good voice work that we're doing here. Oh, my God, he's married.

[Josh Dean]

It's also the only way to tell an Amish guy is married because they don't wear rings. Okay, I'm teaching you so much today.

[Rory Scoville]

This is. There is a lot of education happening right now.

[Josh Dean]

But you know what the Amish don't like, Rory? What? A mustache.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Yep. You want to guess why that is?

[Rory Scoville]

I don't know. I'm only just now realizing that that's the case.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, because, like, Amish people have the big beard and no mustache, which is a look.

[Rory Scoville]

It's definitely a look. But for some reason, it never occurs to me that there's a reason for it.

[Josh Dean]

Obviously, it's because they're pacifists. Rory. Okay, apparently, back in the 19th century, when the Amish came about in Europe, the British and French militaries required their soldiers to have mustaches.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, all right.

[Josh Dean]

Feelings about that.

[Rory Scoville]

So the Amish are a little more rebellious than we have ever been led to believe.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, because Amish, I think the fact.

[Rory Scoville]

That they completely live inside their own cultures and never interact with us or.

[Josh Dean]

Use electricity or any modern machines.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Outside of those things, you're telling me they're rebellious.

[Josh Dean]

So the Amish hate war, so they ban mustaches. That's a statement.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I like that. I can get behind that. As a guy who only has a.

[Josh Dean]

Mustache, you're the opposite of the Amish.

[Rory Scoville]

I love war. I love it. I just love it.

[Josh Dean]

So thus concludes the religious history lesson for today. I'll get back to our crime. According to the U.S. attorney's office for the Northern District of Ohio, which is based in Cleveland, the group led by Sam Mullet. Yes, his real name. Carried out five separate beard and hair assaults in four Ohio counties between September and November 2011. In each assault, the defendants, quote, forcibly removed beard and head hair from practitioners of the Amish faith with whom they had ongoing religious disputes. Wow. So that's the crux of it. It was a religious dispute. Mullet was the bishop of one specific group of about 20Amish families who lived on 200 acres near Bergholtz, Ohio, which is about 100 miles south of Cleveland. The problems seem to stem from some family troubles in the Mullet clan. Specifically, a messy breakup.

[Lane Rose]

Huh?

[Josh Dean]

After the estranged husband of Wilma Mullet, Sam's daughter, was granted custody of their children. It led to the kids moving out of the community. And this did not go over well with Sam Mullet, who sounds like a bit of a Dick. Yeah, I'm just going to say it.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, he is wanting to keep his grandkids close by, right? I mean, yeah.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, that's fair. I would also be upset, but I wouldn't go. I wouldn't do this because he decided to mete out some of his own justice. A little like custom Amish violence here.

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, look, he's a mullet. This is the mullet way.

[Josh Dean]

This is the mullet way. Here's what he told the New York Times a year after his conviction in a jailhouse interview. We felt God was against us. The community was sinning and men were not leading Christian lives. The inference there, I think, is that Wilma's ex was stepping out and wasn't the only one. Sam feared that his flock was overly randy, and he really spun out over this. He instituted a series of pretty radical practices, like he canceled the biweekly church services that are typical in Amish settlements and instead required members to attend regular meetings that, according to the Times, were, quote, filled with accusations and confessions. Gonna keep reading from the Times here. In that tormented climate, Wilma Mullet concluded that her brother Johnny and other men were mistreating their wives and children and having impure thoughts about other women. One night in early 2010, Wilma and another woman took it upon themselves, she said, to force her brother and six other husbands to rethink their ways. Cutting off their beards in front of others.

[Danny Shapiro]

Huh.

[Lane Rose]

Huh.

[Josh Dean]

It's like an Ari Aster horror movie kind of.

[Rory Scoville]

I gotta say, there is a vibe. There is a little bit of that. There's a splash of that. I gotta say, outside of the assault element of it, I bet it is really fun to just shave off a massive beard.

[Josh Dean]

I would think so. It's like a. Like a. Like a topiary, right? Like when you have, like a big hedge and you just like, ah, look at those.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah.

[Rory Scoville]

Like, there's a chance they, like, shaved a dude. And they were like, my God, you look 15. I mean, might be 15 with the beard. We thought you were 58, shaved. I thought you were in high school.

[Josh Dean]

It's like when you see images of, like, a wet owl. Have you ever seen, like, a bird without its feather?

[Rory Scoville]

Such a specific example, Josh. Such a wildly. Yeah. You know, it reminds me of a wet owl.

[Josh Dean]

I feel like that's our next T shirt.

[Rory Scoville]

I bet you right now. One listener was like, I was just gonna say wet owl.

[Josh Dean]

So during the trial, prosecutors and witnesses described how some of the defendants, Sam Mullet's sons in this case Pulled one guy out of bed and chopped off his beard. Meanwhile, some female followers surrounded their mother in law and cut off two feet of her hair.

[Lane Rose]

Man.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. They also started making, quote, errant men. Not sure if that's cheaters or just men who dream of bare ankles sleep in chicken coops for up to two weeks.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, now it's gotten. Now it's a little more aster than we had previously.

[Josh Dean]

Now, Sam claimed the door was never locked. He did admit to one other very weird rule, which is that when he caught two men fist fighting, he insisted they work out their issues by spanking each other with wooden paddles.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, this is. There's so much coming to light. The more that we dig.

[Josh Dean]

I feel like Sam has some stuff to work out in therapy, I think.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Sam does not know fully. He has not fully formed in his mind what it is he's truly into. And he's just trying everything. Throw every noodle at the wall, let's see what sticks.

[Josh Dean]

I gotta say, I was pretty relieved when, I mean, I loved the headline. But then to learn that it was Amish on Amish crime. Because otherwise, you know, I'm sure there have been some asshole teens out there in Ohio who cut an Amish beard or two. Yeah. But it would be a much less funny story if it was Outsiders or the English, as I believe they called Harrison Ford and Witness.

[Rory Scoville]

I agree with you. It does feel like it makes it more like, I don't know, palatable.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Otherwise it would be kind of mean.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Otherwise it feels. Yeah, otherwise it feels like a hate crime. Despite the fact it's clearly fucked up.

[Josh Dean]

In the aftermath, some of the local Amish definitely did not want to claim Sam Mullet as one of their own. One woman whose husband is an Amish bishop and had his beard cut off called Sam's disciples a cult and accused him of, quote, probably programming their minds.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Josh Dean]

These attacks were never just about hair, said Assistant U.S. attorney Bridget Brennan after the convictions were announced. They were about religion, which is, by the way, why this was a crime. Coming full circle here, Rory. This was, according to the US Government, a form of religious persecution. The state argued that these were hate crimes, religiously motivated assaults, which is why they were handled by the DOJ's Civil Rights Division. Sam got 15 years in the slammer, four other dudes got seven years, and the rest of the gang got between one and four years.

[Rory Scoville]

Man.

[Josh Dean]

Meanwhile, back home, some of those who stayed in Bergholtz seemed to feel like justice was not served at all like, Sam's unmarried and therefore unbearded 19 year old grandson Edward Mast, who talked to a reporter from WKYC in Cleveland and said the beard, what it stands for, me, what I know about it, once you're married, you just grow a beard. That's just the way the Amish is.

[Rory Scoville]

I love how fucking just right to the point, that is. Oh, for me it just means you're married.

[Lane Rose]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

As for the victims, he added, quote, they got their beard back again, so what's the big deal about it?

[Rory Scoville]

Interesting, Very interesting.

[Josh Dean]

That, of course, is not how the US government felt.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

From day one, this case has been about the rule of law and defending the right of people to worship in peace. This was never about haircuts, said U.S. attorney Stephen Dettelback. These were violent, religiously motivated home invasions that left the victims bloody, bruised and beaten.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I love that someone's like, ah, it's just haircuts.

[Josh Dean]

Like, ah. Is it?

[Rory Scoville]

Is it?

[Josh Dean]

Maybe not quite.

[Danny Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

He called the verdicts a triumph for one of the most basic and sacred freedoms in this country, the freedom of religion. And the judge, U.S. district Judge Dan Aaron Pollster also pulled no punches. Here's what he said to Sam Mullet before his sentencing. You deserve the longest and harshest sentence. Sadly, I consider you are a danger to the community.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, you're right. He really didn't hold back in those two sentences. He let him have it.

[Josh Dean]

He really laid it on him with words. And then 15 years in prison.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I mean, that's, I gotta say, that's impressive. I don't know that I saw 15 coming.

[Josh Dean]

No, I feel like no one did. I think Sam. Yeah, Sam's going to come out of prison as like a tattooed gang member.

[Rory Scoville]

There's no way. He's not going to change. He's, he's into like cults. I think that one guy's right. It does feel very cultish.

[Josh Dean]

I feel like this is the start of another really good movie which is like the kind of Breaking Bad Amish guy goes to prison for beard shaving. Fifteen years later comes out and becomes like a Amish mafia gang boss.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Tats on his knuckles.

[Rory Scoville]

But he springs from jail and it's called Rum Springer.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, yes.

[Rory Scoville]

And his rumspringa is in prison, so it wasn't fun at all.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, I can't believe we got to the very end of the segment and Rum Springa has only now come up.

[Rory Scoville]

It was. Well, hey, I'm glad we got there.

[Josh Dean]

Better late than never.

[Rory Scoville]

It was bound to.

[Josh Dean]

Because we would have gotten letters otherwise. They'd be like, wait, you did a whole Amish segment? There was no discussion of Rumspringer.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep, that's right.

[Josh Dean]

All right, well, after the break, we've got a very different kind of barbershop ambush.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Dean]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you.

[Rory Scoville]

Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Josh Dean]

There's this betting pool for the first.

[Rory Scoville]

Year that there's a one person billion.

[Josh Dean]

Dollar company which would have been like.

[Evan Ratliff]

Unimaginable without AI and now will happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Danny Shapiro]

Oh, hey, Evan.

[Lane Rose]

Good to have you join us.

[Danny Shapiro]

I found some really interesting data on.

[Josh Dean]

Adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Graves]

Hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of le Monstre season 2, the Butcher of Mans. In the mid-90s in the city of Mons in Belgium, women began to go missing, one after the other. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved.

[Josh Dean]

Police are now confirming that the body cut into pieces and stuffed into two plastic.

[Matt Graves]

Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses, and new suspects. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to all episodes of the monster franchise bingeable ad free and with exclusive bonus episodes available only to iHeart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for Iheart True Crime Plus.

[Danny Shapiro]

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Rory Scoville]

We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I said, what?

[Rory Scoville]

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Lane Rose]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

[Danny Shapiro]

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History, we're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Lane Rose]

He would say to himself, turn to the right to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him. So he would have this little practice. To the right.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm sorry.

[Lane Rose]

To the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From revisionist history, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, Rory, I'm gonna show you a picture now.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

Well, Lane is. I don't have that kind of power. Can you see what that is?

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Graves]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Dean]

The. The caption says, my friend's cat got shaved at the vet, and now she looks like a game of exquisite corpse. Yeah, it has nothing to do with our story. So that as the caption clearly states, this cat's shaving was totally above board. But what are we. What are we looking at here, Rory?

[Rory Scoville]

It's a God. It's really hard to even fully understand, but it's a cat that is shaved in the middle midsection of the cat's body. The cat is, like, standing up, leaned against a screen door, and the middle part is shaved, like for a surgery kind of thing. And so the full upper half of the cat is still full with hair, and the lower half Is full of hair. And it looks like, in a cartoonish way, someone just stretched the cat out.

[Josh Dean]

Right.

[Rory Scoville]

Shaved or not shaved, that looks like a long cat.

[Josh Dean]

Well, that has nothing to do with our story. I just felt like you needed to see that.

[Rory Scoville]

And you're right. I did need to see that.

[Josh Dean]

Are you a cat guy?

[Rory Scoville]

I am not. I'm allergic to cats, and therefore, I've never developed any sort of warmth with any cats.

[Josh Dean]

So you've never tried to shave a cat or trim a cat's nails, Put a cat into a carrier?

[Rory Scoville]

No. No.

[Josh Dean]

Okay.

[Rory Scoville]

But I've, you know, I've tried to, as a kid, tried to hold a cat, unaware that they're not like puppies, and I've been scratched.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Like, I think people who don't spend time around casting understand how hard those things are. Yeah. To truly understand the depravity of our second tail today, here's Bill Fitzgerald from WTVR in Richmond, Virginia, with our story from the spring of 2017. In the small rural town of Waynesboro.

[Rory Scoville]

A bizarre mystery to share with you tonight. Someone's going around a small Virginia city abducting pet cats, shaving them, and then returning them to where they were found. Police in Waynesboro say it's happened at least seven times to different cats since December.

[Josh Dean]

So.

[Rory Scoville]

Wow.

[Josh Dean]

Rebecca Martin, the cat owner who you just saw pop up there at the end, said that what she found most upsetting was the shaving of her cat Tiger Lily's belly. Not once, but twice in the previous year. Hurt her. Not, like physically, but it must have been mentally hard on her, which she deduces because the cat doesn't like to be picked up anymore. Huh. Anchor Bill Fitzgerald closes his segment with the most important question of all, at least for us.

[Rory Scoville]

Police say they're not even sure what cross crime has been committed.

[Josh Dean]

Cutting Amish beards, Crime Shaving cats? Maybe not.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. What are we? I love that the cops are like, look, we don't even know the law.

[Josh Dean]

So this bizarre spade of cat shaving comes on the heels of a report from WHSV TV in which another Waynesboro cat owner was interviewed about her cat having its undercarriage shaved. When the station called the local police, they weren't super helpful, but did posit one theory as to what might be happening. Want to guess what the cops the theorized?

[Rory Scoville]

I don't even have a guess. No.

[Josh Dean]

They believed it could have been someone checking to see if the cats were spayed or neutered.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, okay. It was always the belly.

[Josh Dean]

It seemed in this case? Yes. Okay, so how do you think that would, like, why would that work?

[Rory Scoville]

Like looking for scars, I guess. Scars? Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Does this mean if a cat had no scars, they take it a step further and spay or neuter the cat?

[Rory Scoville]

They would kill the cat. They would just have to kill the cat. There's nothing else you can do?

[Josh Dean]

Absolutely no other options. Lest you think this is only something that troubled American teens would do, I offer you this 2023 report from ITV.

[Lane Rose]

In the UK to the mystery surrounding what cat owners have described as a disturbing spate of attacks on their pets. There are more than 50 reports of pet cats having had their flight fur.

[Josh Dean]

Shaven off across the southeast of England. More than 50 reports.

[Rory Scoville]

Isn't it funny how just her accent alone gives so much more credence to, like, the nightly news? Like, over here, it just seems so performative, but that just because of that accent, we're like, this is real news.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, you know, you're right. Like, every. Every one of ours makes Anchorman seem like a documentary.

[Rory Scoville]

Exactly. You. And then you hear a British accent, you're like, shut up. Something important is being told to us.

[Josh Dean]

So that anchor goes on to warn that it could become, quote, a daily occurrence.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God.

[Lane Rose]

Coco has always been a playful, happy cat who liked her tummy being tickled until she was attacked two days ago. I was stroking her and then felt.

[Josh Dean]

Kind of this stubbly area on her.

[Lane Rose]

Tummy, and I actually realized that they've actually shaved the insides of her thighs and her tummy area as well. Since the shaving, Coco has been unsettled and become reclusive.

[Rory Scoville]

Man.

[Josh Dean]

Sorry that I'm laughing at that.

[Rory Scoville]

What? That makes me think you did it.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, it's exactly what you said. It's the tone. It's the accent and the tone that makes it seem like they're taking it so seriously.

[Rory Scoville]

It's just like, this is so much more real and dramatic over here. Tonight we've got cats getting shard. What are people saying about it right after these messages? And, like, you're like, all right.

[Josh Dean]

No, that seemed like. I mean, the close up of the cat's face as they were saying the cat had become unsettled and reclusive.

[Rory Scoville]

But these cats have such a different struggle. You're like, immediately like, oh, my God. Yeah, I gotta say, it does seem evil. The element of learning that it changes the cat's psyche. It's like, okay, that's one. Why are you doing this? But two, now it's got an evil element to it where you're like, oh, you're like fucking with these cats brains again.

[Josh Dean]

We're applying human emotions to cats here, but so would the news people.

[Lane Rose]

That's right.

[Rory Scoville]

That's right. And I look at it, I don't even like cats. And I'm here defending cats. And not just these cats, the musical cats, anything involving cats.

[Josh Dean]

In the case of these cats in Kent, the shavings were more random. The shaver or shavers targeted different areas of the many cats that were. Bellies, sure, but also backs, sides, legs. An organization called Animals Lost and Found in Kent went so far as to map the attacks in 2024 and counted as many as 117 stretching from the south of England all the way to Scotland. Natasha McPhee, director of the organization, said, unfortunately, we have no idea why anyone would do this. There was once an elderly lady shaving cats that would come into her garden, but she was cautioned and stopped. I doubt she's traveling the UK shaving cats.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, I mean, it's not a crazy large country. You know, England just. Just England alone could. You could really get around and really work a number on a lot of cats.

[Josh Dean]

It always starts with one too, right? Like that lady's got to be on the suspect list.

[Rory Scoville]

The drug kicks in, you know what I mean? You're gonna. Let's go one town over, suddenly you're an hour away.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, I also doubt it was her, but that would make a great BBC limited series.

[Lane Rose]

What?

[Rory Scoville]

You're right.

[Josh Dean]

Whatever is happening here, Rory, I think we can agree this is creepy as hell.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. To even want to do this. Yeah, it's. I don't know, the belly, it's got a serial killer vibe to it with no murder.

[Josh Dean]

The thing about these cat attacks in England, they're still going on because earlier this year the problem flared up again as more cats in the south of England were targeted by this mysterious weirdo or weirdos. The South Holland police released a statement. It has been brought to the attention of the local policing team that some cats have been returning to owners addresses in the morning with parts of their fur having been shaven off. This appears to be in the Pinchbeck area. There's also been a case of this in Curtin, near Boston. The motivation behind this is not known. The cats do not appear physically harmed and the shaven areas appears to be small and caused by some form of hair clippers.

[Rory Scoville]

Don't they have like CCTV everywhere? Like, don't they. No one's got anything on this? Apparently not that seems insane.

[Josh Dean]

The wildest and most disturbing theory I found was that these cats were somehow being marked for future injury, perhaps to be killed, which is some very dark shit.

[Rory Scoville]

That now it's getting a little. Now it's a little too far now.

[Josh Dean]

Wow. I mean, I don't have a theory here, do you?

[Rory Scoville]

I have no theory at all. Like, if this is someone's, like, weird thing they just do with cats, it's like, what? I don't know. I don't. It's so confusing.

[Josh Dean]

Well, at least the local cops are delivering a stern warning to these cat shaving sickos. This police statement comes from a story with the headline, police tell people to stop shaving cats.

[Rory Scoville]

I was about to make the joke.

[Josh Dean]

Police.

[Rory Scoville]

Police give stern warning. Hey, cut it out. Greatly misinterpreted crime. Continue.

[Josh Dean]

They also said, quote, this behavior is completely unacceptable. Whatever the motivation behind this is, it is not something that should be taking place. And also, this is not a bit of fun and needs to stop now. Which all sounds like it's something.

[Rory Scoville]

Seems like. It seems like someone who knows someone's in trouble, but they don't even really know what they did. Like, all right, well, change and be better.

[Josh Dean]

I guess I should have done that in a British accent. Can you do it in a British accent?

[Rory Scoville]

Cut it out. This is not a bit of fun. These kitty cats. Leave these kitty cats be. We let you drink outside of pubs on public sidewalks with glass pint glasses. Can't that be enough?

[Josh Dean]

So whether it's a crime or not, the British cat attacks are still unsolved. So get after it, crimeless nation.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, get after it, solve it, or hire that don't fuck with cats team from that documentary. Those people did. Like, that was insane research.

[Josh Dean]

Those people did that documentary I did. I mean, that guy was a killer, and they got him.

[Rory Scoville]

That guy was a murderer.

[Josh Dean]

They should be able to get this guy.

[Rory Scoville]

That's. I think this would be even easier.

[Josh Dean]

Season two.

[Rory Scoville]

Season two, Stop Shaving Cats by Josh the Wet Aldean.

[Josh Dean]

All right, after the break, our final segment.

[Rory Scoville]

This is Crimeless Lane.

[Josh Dean]

What's our final segment?

[Rory Scoville]

Lane's game.

[Lane Rose]

Lane's game. So I have more of a rabbit hole than a game. But I have one question I'm gonna ask you, so don't completely check out.

[Rory Scoville]

I love that. When we get to Lane's games, Lane goes more of a rabbit hole. Here we go.

[Lane Rose]

I'm in the driver's seat.

[Josh Dean]

Now we go where I say, I've got this theory about the 2020 election.

[Lane Rose]

So a fun fact from the Crime List staff is Josh and I both lived around Amish country. Josh, remind me where.

[Josh Dean]

Western Maryland, western Pennsylvania, eastern Ohio district. Like, basically the Amish were in southwestern Pennsylvania.

[Evan Ratliff]

Okay.

[Danny Shapiro]

Yes.

[Lane Rose]

And I grew up about 15 minutes outside of Sugar Creek, Ohio, which is dubbed the gateway to Amish country.

[Josh Dean]

Okay.

[Lane Rose]

Which means over the years, there's been a lot of, like, tourism popping up. Lots of. There's, like, new hotels, restaurants, shops, and a 500 seat theater. And in 2016, this is when it opened. There were. One of the first performances was a musical called Josiah for President. And this musical, I drove by this billboard so many times, and it was just like an image of an Amish man in front of the White House with his horse and buggy. And I was always like, what the fuck? What is this? This can't be real. So I'm very grateful to Crimeless because I finally got to get to the bottom of what this musical was about. And I want to share a video with you.

[Rory Scoville]

Yes.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. Yes.

[Rory Scoville]

I am Congressman Mark Stedman, and as you know, I have withdrawn my candidacy for President of the United States. The man I am endorsing will take America back. Back to basics, back to what is important in life. I am endorsing Josiah for President. I. I am in shock. This is not a Daily show sketch.

[Lane Rose]

This is so real.

[Rory Scoville]

And you're telling me that you drove past this all the time and never once bought a ticket to go see? Wow.

[Lane Rose]

Wow.

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, because that was an extended run there. March, April, May, June, July. Come on. It also begs the question, what act could follow that? It's always going to be Josiah for Commissioner. Josiah for Comptroller.

[Josh Dean]

Comptroller.

[Lane Rose]

So, yeah, you get the gist of it. A presidential candidate drops out, taps his Amish man. Josiah runs on a plain truth platform, and the question is asked, can he heal a broken nation? And that would be allah. Broken Nation 2012, when this book was written. The musical's based off of. Any questions before I move on about Josiah?

[Rory Scoville]

Is the soundtrack available streaming anywhere?

[Lane Rose]

Nope. You can buy it on eBay for $90, and I will.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. Did an Amish person write this?

[Lane Rose]

No, just a woman.

[Josh Dean]

Even better, because they'd have to write it on paper because they can't type. Right. Yeah. Also, I like that I asked, was it an Amish person? You said, no, just a woman.

[Rory Scoville]

Nope, it was a woman.

[Josh Dean]

Okay.

[Lane Rose]

So, yeah, this has been running for, like, a decade now, and I've only read positive reviews for it, and I found one that Rory I was wondering if you could read for us in a. Your. Your best southern accent, which I know you have.

[Josh Dean]

Is he doing this? What region is this? South Carolina, Georgia, Florida.

[Lane Rose]

This man's from Michigan, but I think a southern accent.

[Rory Scoville]

But Southern makes the most sense.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Okay.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm not much of a fan of live plays. At age 77 and a half, I would rather honestly sit at home at my computer and look at what I will. You know, what I want to watch in my computer chair and hot pad to soothe an aching back, then go about anywhere else but my sweetheart of 42 years. Yes, on June 19, 2024, wanted me to take her to the play at shipshe for our 42nd wedding anniversary. So I took her there from Grand Rapids Mish with my back slash leg numbness issues. And it was a hot 98 degrees outside, so the air conditioning was not the coldest for me, though, was fine for my sweetie. I started feeling like leaving and taking a nap might be a better use of my time. I'm so glad I didn't. However, the play takes a very intriguing twist as it comes to an end, which I dare not give away. Just want to say that for an old country redneck not into musical plays, I would give this one 100 out of 100 likes. So, again, I would just like to reiterate my score. Here is one 100 out of 100 likes, which many could interpret as the lowest score you could possibly get.

[Josh Dean]

Also, out of 100 likes, not a unit of measure for popularity that I use a lot. How many of 100 likes would you give it?

[Lane Rose]

Yeah, 100. So your single question for the day is something that Norm brought up. What is the very intriguing twist?

[Rory Scoville]

That is great.

[Lane Rose]

Josiah does win the election, so that's not the twist.

[Rory Scoville]

Yes, he has to.

[Lane Rose]

I have multiple choice, but I'm willing to hear your theories.

[Josh Dean]

All right, Rory, you go first.

[Rory Scoville]

He wins the election, and we find out this whole time he was an undercover cop. But let me finish one of those AI cops. Wait, what year was this?

[Lane Rose]

2012 is when it was written.

[Rory Scoville]

All right, forget the AI thing. Undercover Cop stays.

[Josh Dean]

My twist is he grows a mustache and declares war on Canada.

[Rory Scoville]

Smart. Smart.

[Josh Dean]

Wants the mustache. He doesn't have to be a pacifist anymore.

[Rory Scoville]

Finally.

[Josh Dean]

All right, give us the multiple choice, because I'm sure that I was right and Rory was not.

[Lane Rose]

None of. None of those are right.

[Rory Scoville]

If this. If this musical was written by an Amish man, believe you me, undercover cop would have been the ending.

[Lane Rose]

Too bad it was A woman.

[Rory Scoville]

It was a woman who has a more practical storyline that fits the ending.

[Lane Rose]

Okay, so is the twist. A, During Josiah's rumspringer, he was arrested for a hit and run while driving a stolen vehicle. His opponents leak this to the press, ruining his wholesome reputation and chances of reelection. That's a. B, Josiah's bishop urges him to drop out of the race, saying his candidacy will bring shame to his community and dilute his faith. But when Josiah wins the election, the bishop is close to shunning him. So Josiah resigns from office and returns home. Or C. After the State of the Union address, President Josiah is assassinated by a deranged blogger. He dies outside the Capitol building in his wife's arms. She does not ride in the ambulance with him because she is Amish and it is a car that.

[Rory Scoville]

That c. Okay, but before we guess, Josh, I would just like to point out again this reviewer, based on one of those three options, thought 100 out of 100. Now, I know, I know, Josh, you've sat here and you heard all three potential end, and zero of them sound 100 out of 100.

[Josh Dean]

Well, to be fair, I'm not familiar with the 100, like, scale, so.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God. I. What. What blew this guy's mind away? I'm going to go with the assassination because it seems like that would be the most. Oh, my God. Maybe the production of the assassination was significant. That's my guess. The others are kind of like, why would that guy be so blown away by that?

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, the, like, disappointed bishop, I feel like that.

[Rory Scoville]

But the twist at the end, whether.

[Josh Dean]

The bishop is judgmental, I'm going assassination too.

[Lane Rose]

It is assassination. Yes, it is assassination. He is shot by a. By a blogger whose name is Stormcloud44. Which seems weird.

[Josh Dean]

Not.

[Rory Scoville]

Also, just to be very clear, not the online profile name, that person's real name is StormCloud44.

[Lane Rose]

Oh, you've read the book, too. Okay.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm a big fan of Josiah Goes to Washington.

[Lane Rose]

Josiah for President. Yep.

[Josh Dean]

So he's shot and he dies in his wife's arms, but she refuses to get in the ambulance.

[Lane Rose]

She doesn't get in the ambulance?

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, she's like, do you have a horsepowered ambulance that we could take?

[Rory Scoville]

I would go see this. I would go see this show if I was in town. How you were able to avoid it? I don't know.

[Lane Rose]

I was in college at the time. You know, I was. I was above theater.

[Rory Scoville]

It got 100 out of 100.

[Josh Dean]

Likes somebody is going to hear this And. And we're going to remake. We're going to. We're going to do Josiah 2.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. This is going to be a film before you know it.

[Lane Rose]

Crap. Let's. You know what, Rory, do you want to be Josiah?

[Rory Scoville]

Yes. Obviously.

[Josh Dean]

You guys just got to reverse the mustache to beard situation.

[Rory Scoville]

I'll do whatever Hollywood needs.

[Josh Dean]

You'd make a good Josiah, I think.

[Rory Scoville]

Thank you.

[Lane Rose]

Thank you for coming down this rabbit hole with me. I feel like I can. I could breathe again.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. This felt more therapeutic for you than a quiz.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah, it really was.

[Josh Dean]

Foreign. Is a production of Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players in partnership with iHeart podcasts. It's hosted by Rory Scoville and me, Josh Dean. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. Emma Siminoff is our associate producer. We're sound, designed and engineered by Blake Brook with support from Ewan Leitramuin. Mark McAdam composed our theme song. The executive producers at Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadas, Matt Sher and me, Josh Dean. The executive producers for iHeart Podcast and Big Money Players are Jack O', Brien, Lindsey Hoffman and Matt Apodaca. For Smartlos Media, the executive producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and Richard Courson. Bernie Kaminski is head of production. The associate producer is Matty McCann. A special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. Do you have a question, comment or confession for the Crimeless team? Email [e-mail] and if you enjoyed Crimeless, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. It helps people find the show and also makes us feel validated. Unless you're mean, in which case keep it to yourself. We'll see you next week. Crimeless Nation.

[Lane Rose]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Rory Scoville]

Guaranteed human.