← Crimes of the Times
Crimes of the Times
The Dahlia Zodiac Connection: Part Three
00:26:16
Were the Black Dahlia and Zodiac murders the work of the same man? A new theory argues a disturbed World War II veteran was responsible. In this episode, a former FBI profiler explores the psychology behind both cases, examining where they overlap and where they diverge.
Loading summary
Transcript49 lines
- [00:01]
Christopher Goffard
This is an la times studios podcast. Walk me through the key pieces of evidence here. If you were making a presentation to a jury, what are the top three or four things you would point to the drawing.
- [00:22]
Rick Jackson
It has a diagram, obviously of Elizabeth Short with the markings on her, and it's titled Elizabeth.
- [00:30]
Christopher Goffard
I'm talking to Rick Jackson. He was a homicide detective for 36 years, both at the LAPD and at the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office. He's talking about an eerie deathbed drawing left by Marvin Margolis depicting a topless woman entitled Elizabeth. He thinks it provides an undeniable linkage between Margolis and Short's murder.
- [00:53]
Rick Jackson
Knowing that Margolis had a relationship, at least for a short period of time in the proximity to when she was killed, had threatened her. Make this drawing very important.
- [01:07]
Christopher Goffard
Beyond that, he sees it as proof that Margolis was also the Zodiac killer who terrorized Northern California in the late 1960s.
- [01:16]
Rick Jackson
The word zodiac kind of hidden under the dark shaded areas at the bottom of the picture. That's crazy stuff.
- [01:25]
Christopher Goffard
Were you able to see the Zodiac word yourself?
- [01:28]
Rick Jackson
Yes, you could see it. It's not real clear, but I've also seen photographs when it had been enhanced with filters and lighting, so I can verify that based on what I saw at least.
- [01:44]
Christopher Goffard
In June 1970, the Zodiac sent a letter containing two lines of encrypted writing to the San Francisco Chronicle. The letter included a Phillips 66 service station roadmap on it. The Zodiac had marked a spot on the peak of Mount Diablo in Contra Costa county with his signature crossed circle emblem, which seemed to double as a compass. It was centered on a naval radio station. The map coupled with this code will tell you where the bomb is set. He wrote.
- [02:20]
Rick Jackson
And there's a small, like a zero, very small compared to the overall size of the crosshaired circle. When you shift it, that 0 and the line going through it from the crosshairs comes over a part of Oakland, the Oakland Cemetery known as Mountain View Cemetery, and Elizabeth Shorts buried there. And that zero is right over it. So it's a pretty chilling thing, but again, it's a reference to both the Zodiac and Elizabeth.
- [02:52]
Christopher Goffard
The third decisive element, Jackson says, is the breaking of the so called Z13 cipher by amateur sleuth Alex Baber with a method that's been validated by former NSA codebreakers. The Z13 is the famous coded message the Zodiac sent to the San Francisco Chronicle promising that it contained his real name. Baber determined that the name within the code was Marvin Merrill, an alias Marvin Margolis lived under until his death in the early 1990s. From the Los Angeles Times and LA Times studios, this is Crimes of the Times. I'm Christopher Goffard.
- [03:42]
OpenTable Advertiser
Quick question. Who usually plans Mother's Day? If you're thinking mom, yeah, same. Which is exactly why this year she shouldn't have to think about it all the times she's gotten everyone together, handled the details, made the extra effort. Not this year. This year you've got the plan. And finding the right place just got easier. Whether it's brunch, a spot with a view, or a table for the whole family, finding the right restaurant for Mother's Day is simple. On OpenTable, you can read real diner reviews, find the times that work, and book in just a few taps. No calling around, no guessing what's still available. It's all in one place. So instead of asking her what she wants to do, find her a table she'll love on OpenTable. Go to OpenTable.com or download the app to get started. That's OpenTable.com Happy Mother's Day.
- [04:40]
Christopher Goffard
Hi, it's Christopher Goffard here reminding you that the stories you hear on this podcast are based on original reporting by LA Times journalists like myself. And with deepfakes and AI generated content on the rise, it's more important than ever to support reporters on the ground. Help support our newsroom by subscribing to the LA Times. Head to latimes.com getlat to get started. That's latimes.com getlat during one of the
- [05:11]
Southern California Edison Representative
most severe windstorms Southern California experienced in more than a decade, the Palisades and Eaton fires ignited, leaving heartbreaking losses in our communities. Now, as we build back, we're building stronger, cleaner and more resilient in communities most vulnerable to dangerous weather conditions and wildfires. Southern California Edison is placing power lines underground, hardening the electric system by installing wires with protective coating and adding advanced technology to help keep communities safe. The work is underway as communities rebuild across the region. And if you were impacted by the Eaton fire, support may be available through Southern California Edison's Wildfire Recovery Compensation Program. Claims can be filed directly through the program. No legal fees, no lengthy litigation. Payment in months, not years. To file or explore the program, visit sce.com directclaims Communications funded by ratepayers,
- [06:26]
Christopher Goffard
Former homicide cop Rick Jackson met amateur sleuth and codebreaker Alex baber in early 2025. Without formal training, without a badge or a private eye license, Baber had devoted years to proving a Linkage between two of the most notorious unsolved cases in the annals of American crime, the Elizabeth short murder of 1947 and the Zodiac killings of 1968. And in 1969, Jackson came away convinced. I'm trying to anticipate a question that will probably be raised, which is, how do you know that you are not falling prey to an ingenious hoaxer?
- [07:08]
Rick Jackson
I just. I just think there's too much to go with that he used as supporting corroborative evidence that was created years and years and years ago. If he would have just said the code and that was it, that would be one thing, and that was one of the strongest things. But once you get past the code, that cinches it for me, there's just too many things.
- [07:41]
Christopher Goffard
Jackson tells me Margolis lived in the Bay Area around the time the Zodiac was active there. He confirmed that Margolis lived in San Jose in 1969 and 1970.
- [07:53]
Rick Jackson
Yeah, matter of fact, I drove by the house the other day.
- [07:57]
Christopher Goffard
Jackson thinks Margolis is good for other unsolved killings, including a cab driver's murder in 1962 in Oceanside. Margolis jumped from occupation to occupation, interest to interest. He was an artist, a car salesman, an auto mechanic. He talked about writing a novel.
- [08:15]
Rick Jackson
He was a man of riddles. And that shows up so much in his writings, the depth he went to to hide things and give little clues and hints.
- [08:27]
Mitzi Roberts
I know a lot of the naysayers, you know, they'll pick apart one or two different things, but it's like, how do you discount everything, though? So if you discount one thing, but you're really going to discount this and this and this and this and this, all because you don't believe in this one thing. You don't. There's just too many circumstances for me to do that.
- [08:50]
Christopher Goffard
Mitzi Roberts is a former cold case detective at the lapd. For years, she supervised the Black Dahlia investigation. She says Short's murder is solved.
- [09:02]
Mitzi Roberts
I think this one is sort of backed by evidence. It's backed by the cryptology and stuff. The fact that people are so angry, some of them are so, like, passionate that I've gotten this wrong. It's amusing to me because I don't really like. To me, it's you believe in you theory. I believe in this one. We can talk about it. We can discuss it. We can maybe help each other. Maybe you'll learn something. I'll learn something. But it doesn't really. It doesn't make me angry or anything.
- [09:38]
Christopher Goffard
How Closely. Does the Elizabeth Short murder match up with what we know, the Zodiac killer? Did I pose the question to a former FBI profiler?
- [09:49]
Julia Cowley
So with Elizabeth, what I think defines that case is what the offender did to her after her death. I think that is significant. This was an intensely personal, hands on type of crime.
- [10:08]
Christopher Goffard
This is Julia Cowley, who used to work at the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit and hosts a podcast called the Consult, in which she and other former profilers examine criminal cases. As she points out herself, profiling is not a hard science and she's careful not to give definitive answers. I asked her to describe what she thinks motivated Elizabeth Short's killer.
- [10:32]
Julia Cowley
I believe his impulse is complete mastery over another person, over the victim's body. And the body itself is the focus. She is the focus. Not the public, not the police, not the media. And it's his ritual. It's why he committed the crime, so that he could do these things to her body and spend a significant portion of time with her body. This is consistent with sexual sadism, where elements of control, domination and manipulation are central to his needs.
- [11:13]
Christopher Goffard
This did not necessarily indicate, however, that the killer had some kind of prior relationship with her.
- [11:20]
Julia Cowley
What I would say is that she's found and she's found fairly soon after her body was dumped. So that would indicate to me that the offender at least didn't feel like if she was found quickly, that he would be an immediate suspect. So that could indicate the offender didn't think he had a close known personal relationship that others knew about with her.
- [11:54]
Christopher Goffard
I asked her what she thought of the drawing Marvin Margolis made in 1992 called Elizabeth Margolis made the drawing 45 years after he'd known Short and soon before his own death. Alex Baber and his team say it's tantamount to a confession. Cowley disagrees.
- [12:12]
Julia Cowley
I don't know that it proves anything. I think it is interesting and it does show he's thinking about her, that subject matter, it's certainly insight into that he knew her. And is it just that he was obsessed with her and also artistic and he drew it, or is this some way to relive his crime and what he did? I mean, he wouldn't be the first offender to do that. BTK fantasized a lot by drawing quite a bit. So, you know, is it interesting? Does it need to be considered? Yes. Would I say that that's a confession? I would not call it a confession.
- [13:10]
Shopify Advertiser
We all love to online shop and I'm not immune, but sometimes I'm shopping late at night. I'm tired and I'm nowhere near my credit card. Well, now I don't have to. Whenever I check out now, all I do is click on the purple pay button. It has all my information saved, making checking out as simple as a click. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the US accelerate your efficiency. Whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. Tackle all those important tasks in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com crimesofthetimes go to shopify.com crimesofthetims that's shopify.com crimesofthetimes
- [14:12]
Christopher Goffard
the Black Dahlia murder of 1947 is arguably California's most notorious unsolved case. Its only rival might be the Zodiac murders a generation later. Now an amateur sleuth is attracting attention with the claim that the same killer is responsible for both cases. I'm Christopher Goffert, host of Crimes of the Times. Check out our new season on YouTube and listen to it on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the distinctive features of Short's killing was the precision of the cut that separated her body, which for generations has steered the search for suspects. Marvin Margolis had desperately wanted to be a surgeon, but the Navy had refused to allow it, and a psychiatrist had identified that as the source of great bitterness. The more I think about it, the more I can imagine a guy like that killing Elizabeth Short and cutting her up as kind of a twisted way of saying, look at what I can do. I wonder if that's plausible to you.
- [15:27]
Julia Cowley
Certainly it is plausible. In fact, he would be somebody that I think would need to be prioritized as a suspect. He had a history with her, as you said. It was noted that she was bisected with surgical precision. He had potentially those skills. So I would consider him a prioritized suspect until he could definitively be ruled out.
- [15:53]
Christopher Goffard
But Cowley says the condition of Short's body would not necessarily have required formal surgical training.
- [16:01]
Julia Cowley
Now, what I do want to say about bisections and we've seen other cases of dismemberment, I don't always believe just because someone did something well, they were in that profession Specifically, maybe he was a hunter, a butcher, you know, whatever. But there could be other professions other than a medical profession. But I also want to point out that when the body parts were found in Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment, it was described that he was very good at separating their body parts at the joints. It was done with what was considered precision. And he had no background in medical training. And the reason why he was good at it was because he thought about it, he fantasized about it, he did it, and that's why he got good at it. So I would not limit it just to medical backgrounds.
- [16:55]
Christopher Goffard
Are there psychological similarities between the killer of Elizabeth Short and the Zodiac killer? The Zodiac claimed to be responsible for 37 murders, but there are only five that are officially attributed to him. The Zodiac's first known victims were Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday, who were high school students. Parked on a lover's lane in Vallejo in December 1968, he shot them to death with a 22 caliber pistol. The following July, he attacked another couple with a 9 millimeter handgun. He killed 22 year old Darlene Ferrin and wounded her 19 year old companion, then called the Vallejo police from a payphone to take credit for it. A month later, he started sending letters and cryptograms to Bay Area newspapers demanding that they print them prominently or else he'd kill a dozen people at random. The first cipher was called the Z408 and a Salinas couple cracked it easily. It contained the message, I like killing people because it is so much fun. It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal of all to kill. He said killing was the most thrilling experience, even better than getting your rocks off with a girl. He added that his murders were about the collecting of slaves for my afterlife. In September 1969, he carried a handgun and wore a hood. As he approached a pair of Pacific Union College students who were picnicking at Lake Berryessa, he tied up 20 year old Brian Hartnell and 22 year old Cecilia Shepherd. Between them, he left 16 stab wounds. Hartnell lived, Sheppard did not. The Zodiac's fifth and final confirmed victim was Paul Stine, a 29 year old cab driver. The killer shot him to death in October 1969 in San Francisco, then sent a piece of the victim's bloody shirt to the San Francisco Chronicle along with a letter taking credit. He threatened to blow out the tires on a school bus and then murder kids as they emerged, a threat which induced terror in the Bay Area. And prompted police to escort school buses on their routes. When I asked Julia Cowley, the former FBI profiler, how the Black Dahlia and Zodiac cases matched up, she said there were significant differences. For one thing, the Zodiac left some of his victims alive.
- [19:24]
Julia Cowley
It kind of shows you that maybe the victim themselves are not that important. Spending time with him, making sure they're dead. Unlike Elizabeth Short, where there's a significant amount of time spent with her. This is totally opposite. His focus was on escape.
- [19:40]
Christopher Goffard
The key difference, as Cowley sees it, was that Elizabeth Short's killer was focused on her, whereas the Zodiac killer was focused on his audience. The Zodiac, she said, cared first about public recognition.
- [19:55]
Julia Cowley
He used the media as a way to torture and instill fear in the public. So the attacks themselves, they're rapidso rapid. He doesn't even ensure death for two of them. They are in public places, as opposed to Elizabeth's, which had to have some privacy. Zodiac focused on getting out of there quickly. The escape, there was not prolonged activity with the body in the same way. And I do want to point out that, you know, I have to really stick to what I know the evidence to be or what's been confirmed. And the subsequent Black Dahlia letters, you know, there's the phone call. There was a letter which contained her possessions or a package of some sort. So I think we have to consider those did come from the offender, but the rest have never been confirmed to have come from the offender. So I don't think we can attribute those to him. And behaviorally, when you're looking at the Dalia communications, I do believe that the letter and kind of the follow up to the police was a way. It was an extension of the crime in a way, and it is attention seeking, certainly, but there's also an element of closure to it. And it was brief and deliberate. And there wasn't like a continuation of this pattern that we see in the Zodiac. Communications which were repeated, they were almost compulsive. It escalated when he was ignored. There were demands for publication, corrections to the police narratives. And with Zodiac, the communications, I believe, were central to his crimes, and they were the primary source of gratification. Whereas with Black Dahlia, the communications were incidental, and the primary source of gratification was the time he spent with her body, mutilating her. Completely different.
- [22:07]
Christopher Goffard
What we know of Marvin Margolis suggests a frustrated intellectual who constantly sought recognition and respect that was denied him. He had a streak of grandiosity in newspaper profiles. He embellished his war record and portrayed himself As a dashing Renaissance man, he drifted from state to state, job to job. And though some members of his family now comment on his supposed brilliance, it's not clear what achievements he had to his name. We know he did time for cheating customers at his auto business. I asked Cowley to paint a psychological profile of the Zodiac Killer for me.
- [22:45]
Julia Cowley
He's a very petty individual. I would say that he would be the type of individual who would hold grudges for a long period of time. He's going to feel like people are against him or don't appreciate him. Co workers and bosses probably had issues with him. He probably felt a sense of entitlement, like he didn't get the recognition he deserved. He may criticize his superiors under his breath. He just does his job, and then this gives him time to go and concentrate on what he really wants to concentrate on, which are his fantasies of murdering and writing these letters and gaining recognition and his way of showing the world how really important that he is.
- [23:30]
Christopher Goffard
I mean, I have to say, everything you're saying fits this guy, from what I know about him.
- [23:35]
Julia Cowley
And that's the problem with profiling. I mean, it. It doesn't identify offenders. And more than one person could fit a profile because after listening to my show, I don't know how many calls I get or emails. This fits my suspect. Can you come? And I got a call from a cold case detective who has a potential Zodiac suspect. And he's like, I was listening, and this fits my suspect. And that's the thing, that a profile can fit many people. We can never say that profiling is an exact science and that we always get it right.
- [24:14]
Christopher Goffard
Would you be surprised if it turned out to be the same guy who did the Dahlia and the Zodiacs?
- [24:22]
Julia Cowley
I would be surprised. I would. But if there's forensic evidence or if the departments officially come out and say this is the same guy, then I stand corrected.
- [24:36]
Christopher Goffard
What's the main thing that would give you that surprise? Why would you not say, oh, of course?
- [24:42]
Julia Cowley
Because there's, to me, fundamental differences between the offender in the Black Dahlia case and the Zodiac Killer. I mean, I think someone who commits ritualized, sadistic mutilation in their earlier years, let's say, I couldn't say exactly how old the Dahlia killer is, but he's old enough to have his own place and privacy somewhere, so. And then 20 years later, become an impersonal, media focused offender without really anything to explain that change. And they're just so different to me behaviorally. I cannot responsibly link them, as much as I would love to be able to and say, yeah, I think it's the same guy and I think it's solved. Because then we don't have to wonder anymore. Behaviorally, I cannot link them.
- [25:46]
Christopher Goffard
In our next episode, the last in our series examining connections between the Dahlia and Zodiac cases, I'll talk to the author of a book on the Dahlia case which points to the same long forgotten suspect named in one of the Zodiac ciphers. From LA Times Studios, this is Crimes of the Times. To read more about these cases, check out Crimes of the times@latimes.com we also have a link to our video episodes in the show. Notes this episode was written and reported by me, your host, Christopher Goffard. Our senior producers are Mary Knauff and Jonathan Shiflett of Studio Phonic. Our editor is Cindy Chang and our Associate producer is Jordan Patterson. Special thanks to my colleague Richard Winton who contributed reporting to this podcast. Our camera operators are Michael Siegel, Josh Summers, and Peter Grayson. Our Director of Post Production is Patrick Stewart and our Senior Sound Recorder, Our Marketing Engineer is Nick Norton with additional engineering by Jordan Patterson. Our Podcast Marketing Manager is Bryn Jura, our Senior Media Marketing Manager is Will Dobson, and our Product Marketing Director is Becca Dorman. Our podcast Senior Finance Manager is Jenner Canaleo. Special thanks to LA Times Studio President Anna Magzagnia, President and Chief Operating Officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Chris Argenteri and Executive Editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang. Crimes of the Times is executive produced and co created by Darius, Derek Shahn and me, Christopher Goffard.