Crimes of the Times: The Final Word on Manson, Part 1
Published March 18, 2025 | Host: Christopher Goffard | Guest: Stephen Kay, former LA County Deputy District Attorney

Episode Overview

In this gripping first installment of a two-part conversation, host Christopher Goffard sits down with Stephen Kay, one of the last living prosecutors of the infamous Charles Manson case. Together, they peel back the enduring mythos around the "Manson Murders," shedding new light on the personalities, events, and aftermath of one of America's most haunting crimes. The episode explores Manson's rise, his psychological mastery over his followers, misconceptions about the Manson Family, the prosecution's inside story—including interoffice politics and uncredited contributions—and the fates of key players like Bruce Davis and attorney Ronald Hughes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: The Manson Murders

• Background Recap:

  • On August 9, 1969, Charles Manson sent followers to murder actress Sharon Tate and four others; the next night, Leno and Rosemary LaBianca were killed.
  • The crimes sent shockwaves through Hollywood, intersecting with the era's counterculture and spawning numerous books and theories.
    (A, 00:00–03:15)

• Manson’s Mythos:

  • Manson’s charisma, appearance, and the bizarre context gave rise to media hysteria, culminating in Rolling Stone dubbing him "the most dangerous man alive."
  • The "Helter Skelter" theory, popularized by prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi's book, became the dominant explanation for the murders.

Inside the Prosecution: Stephen Kay’s Story

How Kay Joined the Manson Case

• Thrown Into the Deep End:
  • Stephen Kay explains being promoted from obscurity right into the "crime of the century" at age 27 following a DA shakeup.
  • "Here at 27 years old, the crime of the century. 10,000 pages of transcript. But hey, you know, I gotta do it."
    (C, 07:12)

Prosecution Team Dynamics

• Unpopular but Prepared:

  • Kay describes Bugliosi as "very unusual" and not well-liked, but an obsessive, meticulous worker—often sleeping only 3 hours a night.
    (C, 08:01–08:45)
  • "He was not well liked, but I got along with him. ...He was very well prepared. He wrote out everything, he planned everything."
    (C, 08:02–08:14)

• Credit Where Due (or Not):

  • Bugliosi is critiqued for failing to give his colleagues credit or even spelling names correctly in his books, which Kay suspects was intentional.
  • "No, you wouldn't [know about others’ contributions] from reading his book... Yeah, he spelled my name wrong. Our main investigator, Phil Sartucci, he spelled his name wrong."
    (C, 10:01–10:11)

The Impact of Media Narratives

• Kay argues the Life magazine cover with Manson’s "wild and crazy" eyes did more to cement Manson’s legacy than the book Helter Skelter.
  • "That scared everybody. And that's a picture to this day that whoever's seen it will not forget it."
    (C, 11:28–12:06)

Memorable Moments and Anecdotes

Defeating the "Manson Stare"

• Kay recounts a psychiatrist’s trick to "defeat" Manson’s hypnotic stare:
  • "If you stare at a person just above their nose, it'll look like you're staring in their eyes, and you will make them blink first."
  • "Manson gave me this stare, and I stared here, and I made him blink first. And he never forgot that. And I told him one time, I said, 'Charlie, you know I own your soul. Assuming you have one.'" (C, 12:24–13:17)

Unpacking Manson’s Mind Control

Manson’s Charisma and Psychological Grip

• “True Believer” Personality:

  • Manson had absolute certainty in his twisted worldview and profound verbal skill, despite little formal education.
  • "He could quote the Bible almost verbatim in many parts, twisting it to mean what he wanted it to mean."
    (C, 16:38–17:51)

• Learned Manipulation:

  • Exposure to Scientology techniques and Dale Carnegie lessons in prison informed his approach to controlling minds.
    (C, 19:51–21:06)

• LSD’s Role:

  • Manson’s LSD-fueled “seances” increased followers’ suggestibility and bound them to his will.

The “Helter Skelter” Delusion

• Beatles Obsession:

  • Manson was obsessed with the Beatles’ White Album, interpreting "Helter Skelter," "Piggies," and "Revolution 9" as prophecies—a belief he force-fed to his followers during interminable drug-fueled listening sessions.
    (C, 21:32–24:48)
  • "The Beatles aren’t really the Beatles. The Beatles are the locusts written about in Revelation 9 of the Bible. The locusts that are going to fly out of the bottomless pit and start Armageddon." (C, 23:12–23:24)

• Motive:

  • 'Helter Skelter' was Manson’s term for the coming race war; the murders were intended to spark it, after which the Family would emerge to rule. (B, 24:48–25:11)
  • Kay corrects the notion of the Family as "a band of hippies," emphasizing their deep-seated racism, violence, and hatred of the true counterculture.
    (C, 25:11–26:46)

Selection of Victims and the Role of Chance

• Manson targeted the Cielo Drive house partly out of revenge and envy—he wanted to send a message to record producer Terry Melcher, who once lived there and refused to promote him.
  • "He didn't necessarily know who lived at Cielo Drive... he just knew they were well off and that it would scare Terry Melcher." (B & C, 28:36–28:49)

Focus on Bruce Davis and the Murder of Ronald Hughes

Bruce Davis: The Overlooked Lieutenant

• Though Tex Watson is commonly referenced as Manson's right hand, Kay asserts Bruce Davis played this role, acting as Manson’s delegate and even studying Scientology in London at Manson’s behest.
  (C, 35:03–35:54)

The Fate of Ronald Hughes: Attorney-Turned-Victim

• Ronald Hughes, originally an errand boy for Manson, later represented Leslie Van Houten and defied Manson by properly advocating for his client. Hughes’ fate grew ominous after Manson threatened him in court:
  • "Manson pointed across the council table at Hughes...and said, 'Attorney, I don't want to ever see you in this courtroom again.' And we never saw him again."
    (C, 40:44–41:00)

Selected Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Helter Skelter’s Endurance:

  • "I think people in the United States like horror movies. They like to be scared... Life magazine put Charles Manson on the COVID and this was like a real live monster. He looked wild and crazy...I think that Life magazine cover did more than the book Helter Skelter." (C, 11:19–12:06)

• On Prosecution Team Dynamics:

  • "[Bugliosi] was very unusual. He didn't have many friends in the DA's office. He was not well liked, but I got along with him... He was really taught me a lot about preparing a case." (C, 08:01–08:14)

• On Outmaneuvering Manson in the Courtroom:

  • "Manson gave me this stare, and I stared here, and I made him blink first. And he never forgot that. And I told him one time, I said, 'Charlie, you know I own your soul. Assuming you have one.'” (C, 13:12–13:17)

• On Bruce Davis:

  • "Bruce Davis was his right hand man. Whenever Manson would leave... he would leave Davis in charge. Davis had two years at the University of Tennessee, was very bright...." (C, 35:03–35:36)

• On Ronald Hughes’s Last Day:

  • "Manson pointed across the council table at Hughes and I'll never forget this... 'Attorney, I don't want to ever see you in this courtroom again.' And we never saw him again." (C, 40:44–41:00)

Timeline & Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 – 03:15: Introduction, recap of murders, cultural impact
• 03:15 – 07:45: Stephen Kay’s entry into the case and duties
• 07:45 – 11:19: Kay’s relationship with Bugliosi, prosecution dynamics
• 11:19 – 13:17: The iconic Manson "stare" and personal encounters in court
• 15:45 – 17:51: Manson’s psychological control, background, and early life
• 18:09 – 21:06: Manson’s criminal history, influences from prison, and mind-control techniques
• 21:06 – 25:11: The Helter Skelter delusion, Beatles obsession, and the murders’ racial motive
• 25:11 – 28:36: Misconceptions about the Family; victim selection and Cielo Drive
• 32:38 – 36:18: Bruce Davis’s role, Gary Hinman’s murder, and Spahn Ranch dynamics
• 36:18 – 41:00: The Ronald Hughes saga—his transition from Manson ally to independent defense attorney and his foreboding disappearance

Tone & Language

The episode balances the chilling gravity of its subject with direct, sometimes darkly anecdotal reminiscences from Stephen Kay. Goffard’s style is thoughtful, precise, and determined to probe beneath received wisdom—staying true to the investigative spirit of Crimes of the Times.

Summary Takeaways

• Stephen Kay provides first-hand, often overlooked insight into one of America’s most famous murder cases, challenging popular perceptions and media narratives.
• Charles Manson’s control over his followers is shown to be a blend of personality, psychological manipulation, exploitation of the times, and psychopharmacology.
• The motives for the murders were both apocalyptic and deeply personal.
• The episode teases further exploration of the fate of attorney Ronald Hughes—a figure whose story underscores both the reach of Manson’s influence and the chaos surrounding the trial.

For more, the series continues in "The Final Word on Manson: Part 2," delving deeper into how the Manson case left a permanent mark on Los Angeles and the American psyche.