Summary: Crimes of the Times – The Final Word on Manson: Part 2

Podcast: Crimes of the Times (L.A. Times Studios)
Host: Christopher Goffard
Guest: Stephen Kay (Former Manson Prosecutor)
Date: March 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves deeper into the Manson case through an in-depth conversation between host Christopher Goffard and Stephen Kay, the last living prosecutor of the Manson trials. Kay provides first-hand insight into key case mysteries, court strategies, dangerous encounters with Manson and his followers, the case's enduring legacy, and lingering questions about unsolved murders associated with the Manson family. The episode separates myth from fact, explores the prosecution’s challenges, and illustrates the psychological aftermath for those involved.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of Ronald Hughes

• Background:
  • Ronald Hughes, known as the "hippie lawyer," represented Leslie Van Houten and surprised everyone—including Manson—by mounting an aggressive defense.
• Trial Events:
  • Hughes resisted letting Van Houten take the stand to exonerate Manson, saying:

    "You, Honor, I'm not going to be a party to this ... I'm not going to be a party to pushing my client out the window." – Host (01:47)

• Disappearance:
  • Hughes vanished after going to Sespe Hot Springs during a trial recess.
  • He was reportedly last seen swimming after taking LSD.

    "The last people who saw him, they said he was swimming in a natural pool up in Sespe Hot Springs. After having taken LSD in the middle of a trial." – Stephen Kay (03:00)

  • His body was later found decomposed, cause of death undetermined.
• Foul Play vs. Accident:
  • Bruce Davis was at large at the time, leading to speculation about Manson family involvement.

    "Part of me is thinking that it was a natural death. And the other part, well, Bruce Davis..." – Stephen Kay (03:00-04:11)

• Case Impact:
  • A new attorney, Maxwell Keith, was abruptly appointed, causing grounds for Van Houten's conviction reversal.

    "The appellate court said that it was unfair to put a new attorney in just to give the argument when that attorney hadn't seen the witnesses testify and cross examine them." – Stephen Kay (05:55)

2. Threats and Intimidation During and After the Trial

• Personal Connections:
  • Kay recounted an odd adolescent blind date with future Manson follower Sandra Good:

    "I figured out that she was a little stuck up snob and I didn’t want to have anything to do with her ... So we had a 10 minute blind date at the Pancake House with our mothers." – Stephen Kay (07:39)

• Direct Threats:
  • Good and Squeaky Fromme threatened Kay outside the courthouse:

    "They said they were going to do to my house what was done at the Tate house." – Stephen Kay (08:09)

  • Manson personally threatened Kay three times, including a threat at a parole hearing:

    "He told me that he was going to have me murdered on my way to the car, my car, after the hearing." – Stephen Kay (11:18)

• Living With Fear:
  • While Kay tried not to dwell on danger, his family was deeply affected:

    "Every time the wind blew a branch of a tree outside, she was thinking that, you know, somebody was gonna come in." – Stephen Kay (10:20)

3. The Parole Hearings

• Volume & Atmosphere:
  • Kay attended 60 parole hearings for Manson case defendants.

    "I went to 60 parole hearings for the five Tate LaBianca murder defendants." – Stephen Kay (13:33)

• Interactions with Defendants:
  • Patricia Krenwinkel reacted with fury to Kay’s presence:

    "She called me the F word ... I want to make sure you don't get paroled because I know what you're capable of." – Stephen Kay (14:48)

• Manson’s Prison Oddities:
  • Manson crafted scorpions out of sock thread and expressed fantastical parole requests:

    "He wanted to either be paroled to space or ... to Death Valley so that he could live with his friends, the spiders and the snakes and the scorpions." – Stephen Kay (15:05)

4. Manson’s Theatrics and Ideology

• Courtroom Stunts:
  • Manson carved an X into his forehead, lunged at Judge Older with a pencil (who kept a SAP under his bench for protection):

    "He tried to stab the judge. And Judge Older told me ... he would have whacked him with the SAP." – Stephen Kay (17:20)

• Cult and Satanic Parallels:
  • At parole hearings, Manson became an icon of satanic worship; gatherings of black-clad followers would chant outside prison:

    "Later I learned that Manson had become the focal point of satanic worshipers in the United States..." – Stephen Kay (18:07)

5. The Dennis Wilson & Music Industry Connection

• Dennis Wilson (Beach Boys):
  • Wilson hosted Manson and his followers, hoping to promote his music. This failed, possibly fueling Manson’s rage:

    "Manson was an aspiring musician who could never land the record deal... which seems to have inflamed his hatred." – Christopher Goffard (22:19)

  • Wilson facilitated connections but refused trial involvement.
• Manson’s Influence Spreading:
  • Wilson reportedly hinted at knowing the root of Manson's motives and their darker side:

    “Someday I’ll tell the world” – (paraphrased, 22:50)

6. Helter Skelter: Evidence and Legacy

• Artifacts and Beliefs:
  • Police found receipts for scuba gear and “golden rope”—symbols of Manson’s apocalyptic plans:

    “To get into the bottomless pit, you had to be lowered with golden rope… which Watson took into the Tate residence and hung Sharon Tate from a beam.” – Stephen Kay (25:25)

• Biblical and Drug-fueled Logic:
  • Manson convinced followers that they would enter a “bottomless pit” and grow into 144,000 beings, referencing Revelation 9.
  • Rituals included crucifixion reenactments while on LSD, with followers playing biblical roles:

    "He would stretch his arms out and say how it felt when they were driving the nails in his hands and into his feet." – Stephen Kay (27:30)

7. Open Questions and Unsolved Murders

• Number of Victims:
  • Manson claimed up to 34 victims; only 9 were prosecuted due to lack of further proof:

    “All I can say is the nine murders we prosecuted him for, those were the ones that we could prove, nothing else.” – Stephen Kay (29:10)

• Suspicious Deaths:
  • Bruce Davis, Sandra Good’s husband’s suspicious “suicide” in London, and a Russian roulette incident remain unsolved and plausible as further Manson family crimes:

    “Authorities ruled that it was a suicide. But there was writing on the mirror which they… didn’t preserve.” – Stephen Kay (29:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ronald Hughes’ disappearance:

  "He was swimming in a natural pool up in Sespe Hot Springs. After having taken LSD in the middle of a trial."
  — Stephen Kay (03:00)

• On surviving Manson’s threats:

  "If anybody can assassinate a President of the United States, they can kill anybody. So I am just not going to dwell on it."
  — Stephen Kay (09:16)

• On the cult’s glamour and menace:

  "Manson had become the focal point of satanic worshipers in the United States, that they viewed him as the devil incarnate."
  — Stephen Kay (18:07)

• On the legacy of uncertainty:

  "I think if there's anybody that I would want to know more from, it would be from Dennis Wilson."
  — Stephen Kay (23:50)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:01–04:56: The fate and disappearance of Ronald Hughes, trial impact
• 05:52–10:20: Threats to Kay and his family by Manson, his followers, coping with danger
• 13:25–17:38: Parole hearings, Manson’s prison behavior, cult followers’ presence
• 22:19–25:03: Dennis Wilson’s connection to Manson, failed music aspirations
• 25:08–28:55: Helter Skelter philosophy, ritual reenactments, and evidence
• 29:10–31:16: Open murders, possible additional Manson victims, lingering mysteries

Conclusion

This episode offers a vivid, insider account of the chaos and horror surrounding the Manson murders and their aftermath, countering sensationalized versions with sober courtroom realities. Stephen Kay's interview blends personal anecdote, measured legal insight, and chilling recollections, providing not just the “final word” on the case’s facts but also an enduring sense of its unanswered questions and psychological scars.