The Final Word on Manson: Part 2

Summary

---

Summary: Crimes of the Times – The Final Word on Manson: Part 2

Podcast: Crimes of the Times (L.A. Times Studios)
Host: Christopher Goffard
Guest: Stephen Kay (Former Manson Prosecutor)
Date: March 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves deeper into the Manson case through an in-depth conversation between host Christopher Goffard and Stephen Kay, the last living prosecutor of the Manson trials. Kay provides first-hand insight into key case mysteries, court strategies, dangerous encounters with Manson and his followers, the case's enduring legacy, and lingering questions about unsolved murders associated with the Manson family. The episode separates myth from fact, explores the prosecution’s challenges, and illustrates the psychological aftermath for those involved.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Mystery of Ronald Hughes

• Background:
  • Ronald Hughes, known as the "hippie lawyer," represented Leslie Van Houten and surprised everyone—including Manson—by mounting an aggressive defense.
• Trial Events:
  • Hughes resisted letting Van Houten take the stand to exonerate Manson, saying:

    "You, Honor, I'm not going to be a party to this ... I'm not going to be a party to pushing my client out the window." – Host (01:47)

• Disappearance:
  • Hughes vanished after going to Sespe Hot Springs during a trial recess.
  • He was reportedly last seen swimming after taking LSD.

    "The last people who saw him, they said he was swimming in a natural pool up in Sespe Hot Springs. After having taken LSD in the middle of a trial." – Stephen Kay (03:00)

  • His body was later found decomposed, cause of death undetermined.
• Foul Play vs. Accident:
  • Bruce Davis was at large at the time, leading to speculation about Manson family involvement.

    "Part of me is thinking that it was a natural death. And the other part, well, Bruce Davis..." – Stephen Kay (03:00-04:11)

• Case Impact:
  • A new attorney, Maxwell Keith, was abruptly appointed, causing grounds for Van Houten's conviction reversal.

    "The appellate court said that it was unfair to put a new attorney in just to give the argument when that attorney hadn't seen the witnesses testify and cross examine them." – Stephen Kay (05:55)

2. Threats and Intimidation During and After the Trial

• Personal Connections:
  • Kay recounted an odd adolescent blind date with future Manson follower Sandra Good:

    "I figured out that she was a little stuck up snob and I didn’t want to have anything to do with her ... So we had a 10 minute blind date at the Pancake House with our mothers." – Stephen Kay (07:39)

• Direct Threats:
  • Good and Squeaky Fromme threatened Kay outside the courthouse:

    "They said they were going to do to my house what was done at the Tate house." – Stephen Kay (08:09)

  • Manson personally threatened Kay three times, including a threat at a parole hearing:

    "He told me that he was going to have me murdered on my way to the car, my car, after the hearing." – Stephen Kay (11:18)

• Living With Fear:
  • While Kay tried not to dwell on danger, his family was deeply affected:

    "Every time the wind blew a branch of a tree outside, she was thinking that, you know, somebody was gonna come in." – Stephen Kay (10:20)

3. The Parole Hearings

• Volume & Atmosphere:
  • Kay attended 60 parole hearings for Manson case defendants.

    "I went to 60 parole hearings for the five Tate LaBianca murder defendants." – Stephen Kay (13:33)

• Interactions with Defendants:
  • Patricia Krenwinkel reacted with fury to Kay’s presence:

    "She called me the F word ... I want to make sure you don't get paroled because I know what you're capable of." – Stephen Kay (14:48)

• Manson’s Prison Oddities:
  • Manson crafted scorpions out of sock thread and expressed fantastical parole requests:

    "He wanted to either be paroled to space or ... to Death Valley so that he could live with his friends, the spiders and the snakes and the scorpions." – Stephen Kay (15:05)

4. Manson’s Theatrics and Ideology

• Courtroom Stunts:
  • Manson carved an X into his forehead, lunged at Judge Older with a pencil (who kept a SAP under his bench for protection):

    "He tried to stab the judge. And Judge Older told me ... he would have whacked him with the SAP." – Stephen Kay (17:20)

• Cult and Satanic Parallels:
  • At parole hearings, Manson became an icon of satanic worship; gatherings of black-clad followers would chant outside prison:

    "Later I learned that Manson had become the focal point of satanic worshipers in the United States..." – Stephen Kay (18:07)

5. The Dennis Wilson & Music Industry Connection

• Dennis Wilson (Beach Boys):
  • Wilson hosted Manson and his followers, hoping to promote his music. This failed, possibly fueling Manson’s rage:

    "Manson was an aspiring musician who could never land the record deal... which seems to have inflamed his hatred." – Christopher Goffard (22:19)

  • Wilson facilitated connections but refused trial involvement.
• Manson’s Influence Spreading:
  • Wilson reportedly hinted at knowing the root of Manson's motives and their darker side:

    “Someday I’ll tell the world” – (paraphrased, 22:50)

6. Helter Skelter: Evidence and Legacy

• Artifacts and Beliefs:
  • Police found receipts for scuba gear and “golden rope”—symbols of Manson’s apocalyptic plans:

    “To get into the bottomless pit, you had to be lowered with golden rope… which Watson took into the Tate residence and hung Sharon Tate from a beam.” – Stephen Kay (25:25)

• Biblical and Drug-fueled Logic:
  • Manson convinced followers that they would enter a “bottomless pit” and grow into 144,000 beings, referencing Revelation 9.
  • Rituals included crucifixion reenactments while on LSD, with followers playing biblical roles:

    "He would stretch his arms out and say how it felt when they were driving the nails in his hands and into his feet." – Stephen Kay (27:30)

7. Open Questions and Unsolved Murders

• Number of Victims:
  • Manson claimed up to 34 victims; only 9 were prosecuted due to lack of further proof:

    “All I can say is the nine murders we prosecuted him for, those were the ones that we could prove, nothing else.” – Stephen Kay (29:10)

• Suspicious Deaths:
  • Bruce Davis, Sandra Good’s husband’s suspicious “suicide” in London, and a Russian roulette incident remain unsolved and plausible as further Manson family crimes:

    “Authorities ruled that it was a suicide. But there was writing on the mirror which they… didn’t preserve.” – Stephen Kay (29:57)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ronald Hughes’ disappearance:

  "He was swimming in a natural pool up in Sespe Hot Springs. After having taken LSD in the middle of a trial."
  — Stephen Kay (03:00)

• On surviving Manson’s threats:

  "If anybody can assassinate a President of the United States, they can kill anybody. So I am just not going to dwell on it."
  — Stephen Kay (09:16)

• On the cult’s glamour and menace:

  "Manson had become the focal point of satanic worshipers in the United States, that they viewed him as the devil incarnate."
  — Stephen Kay (18:07)

• On the legacy of uncertainty:

  "I think if there's anybody that I would want to know more from, it would be from Dennis Wilson."
  — Stephen Kay (23:50)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:01–04:56: The fate and disappearance of Ronald Hughes, trial impact
• 05:52–10:20: Threats to Kay and his family by Manson, his followers, coping with danger
• 13:25–17:38: Parole hearings, Manson’s prison behavior, cult followers’ presence
• 22:19–25:03: Dennis Wilson’s connection to Manson, failed music aspirations
• 25:08–28:55: Helter Skelter philosophy, ritual reenactments, and evidence
• 29:10–31:16: Open murders, possible additional Manson victims, lingering mysteries

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a vivid, insider account of the chaos and horror surrounding the Manson murders and their aftermath, countering sensationalized versions with sober courtroom realities. Stephen Kay's interview blends personal anecdote, measured legal insight, and chilling recollections, providing not just the “final word” on the case’s facts but also an enduring sense of its unanswered questions and psychological scars.

---

Transcript

[Christopher Goffard]

This is an LA Times Studios podcast. Welcome to Crimes of the Times. I'm Christopher Goffard. Today, part two of my conversation with Stephen Kay, the last living Manson prosecutor. At the end of last week's segment we spoke about the fate of Ronald Hughes, an attorney who was representing one of Charles Manson's co defendants at his 1970 trial and who ran afoul of Manson. Hughes was known as the hippie lawyer. He wore love beads to court and decorated his UCLA law degree in psychedelic colors. He was no one's idea of a skilled defense attorney and Manson thought he could control him. But Hughes surprised everybody, maybe even himself, by putting up a real fight for his client, 19 year old Leslie Van Houten. She was a former homecoming princess accused of participating in the stabbing deaths of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. Hughes established that her prints were not found at the crime scene and fought for her acquittal. He made the biggest impression when he cross examined the state star witness, a Manson family member named Linda Kasabian. He grilled Kasabian about her drug use in relentless detail. He happened to be intimately familiar with the subject. Among his questions, quote, sometimes on grass or on hashish. Don't you see things in a totally new light? Do you feel that you were controlled by Mr. Manson primarily by vibrations? Hughes disappeared mid trial in November 1970 and his body was badly decomposed when it was discovered. The autopsy listed his cause of death as undetermined. Whether Manson had him killed is one.

[Interviewer/Host]

Of the case's abiding mysteries. The breaking point as I recall was the three female co defendants want to take the stand. Right. And Hugh says, you, Honor, I'm not going to be a party to this. I'm not going to be a party to pushing my client out the window. In other words, he's afraid that Van Houten will take the stand and maybe take the blame herself and try and exonerate Manson. He doesn't want her to do that.

[Stephen Kay]

And that's what happened in the penalty phase. The three women took the stand and took the blame. And yeah, Hughes didn't want to be any part of it. No decent lawyer would want to be any part of that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so let's talk about what happened to Ronald Hughes. He goes up to Sespe Hot Springs, he's got his transcripts, he catches a ride up there, there's a flash flood and he vanishes. And when court resumes, he's nowhere to be seen.

[Stephen Kay]

Well, the last people who saw him, they said he was swimming in A natural pool up in Sespe Hot Springs. After having taken LSD in the middle of a trial.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's doing this in the middle of a trial.

[Stephen Kay]

Well, you know, so you were asking, asking me an earlier question about Bruce Davis and the fact that he was out at the time.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's at, he's at large when Ronald Hughes disappears.

[Stephen Kay]

Yes. And there was an arrest warrant out for him for the, the murders of Gary Hinman and Donald Shorty Shea. And so Hughes, last time we saw him was on a Friday. He didn't show up on Monday and Tuesday Davis surrendered himself. So I'm kind of on the fence. I think one, when Hugh's body was found, it was found in a watercourse down from where he was swimming at Sesame Hot Springs. But it was so badly decomposed that they never were able to tell a cause of death. So part of me is thinking that it was a natural death. And the other part, well, Bruce Davis.

[Interviewer/Host]

And he's a guy who would be capable of it.

[Stephen Kay]

Yes, yes, he would because he, he killed for Charlie before. I mean, he, when, when Manson with his sword cut Gary Hinman's ear into and gave a big slash mark across his face from the ear down to his mouth. Davis was holding a gun on him in, in Hinman's kitchen and fired a bullet before to show Hinman that they, that they meant business.

[Interviewer/Host]

So Ronald Hughes is last seen in a pool Sespe Hot Springs. He's on LSD and is never seen again.

[Stephen Kay]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

What effect does this have on the case?

[Stephen Kay]

Well, we were in recess for, for a couple of weeks and when news finally didn't show up, Judge Older appointed Maxwell Keith to take Hughes place. And Maxwell Keith was a very accomplished criminal defense lawyer in Los Angeles and he was a real smart guy. And so he started out his argument saying, ladies and gentlemen, you should find Linda Van Houten not guilty of these murders. And I knew he knew that was Leslie Van Houten, not Linda Van Houten. But he wanted it on the record that he called his client by her wrong name.

[Interviewer/Host]

He's building his own ineffective assistance of counsel.

[Stephen Kay]

Well, and the case against Van Houten was reversed on appeal because the appellate court said that it was unfair to put a new attorney in just to give the argument when that attorney hadn't seen the witnesses testify and cross examine them.

[Interviewer/Host]

Sandra Good at one point said that Ronald Hughes was murdered by the Manson family. And she was the first of the, he was the first of the retaliation killings.

[Stephen Kay]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you give any weight to her words?

[Stephen Kay]

Yeah, she, for the female, she was probably Manson's closest confidant.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, did you know Sandra Good before any of this happened?

[Stephen Kay]

I did.

[Interviewer/Host]

How did that come about?

[Stephen Kay]

Well, Sandra Good's godmother was my mother's best friend. And Sandra Good came from a wealthy family in San Diego. Her father was a big insurance broker. And one day Sandy and her mother were coming up to LA because they were going to fly to Hawaii out of lax. And so the godmother said, oh, this would be a great idea getting Steve and Sandy Good together to meet. And so we had a blind date with our mothers at the Pancake House in Burbank.

[Interviewer/Host]

With your mothers there?

[Stephen Kay]

With our mothers there, yes, our mothers were there. I was 15, she was 14. Ten minutes into the lunch, I figured out that she was a little stuck up snob and I didn't want to have anything to do with her. And I excused myself and I went over to a buddy's house and went swimming. So we had a 10 minute blind date at the Pancake House with our mothers.

[Interviewer/Host]

What a strange connection.

[Stephen Kay]

And she recognized me in the elevator during the trial. She recognized who I was. I mean, I met her when I was 15. I was 27 at the, the trial, so maybe I didn't change that much. But then one night after court, she and Squeaky snuck up behind me on my way to the parking lot to get my car and they said they were going to do to my house what was done at the Tate house. And you know, okay, I knew what was done at the Tate house. I had to tell my wife. And she was not very thrilled with that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I'm very curious about that. Like, how did you cope with the menace you must have felt the Manson family, God knows how many people they've killed. How did you deal with the threat to your safety and your family's safety that must have, that must have long outlasted the trials?

[Stephen Kay]

Well, I went back in my mind to the President Kennedy's assassination. And I thought, you know, if anybody can assassinate a President of the United States, they can kill anybody. So I am just not going to dwell on it. I take precautions. I'm always aware of my circumstances, who's around. I never park next to a van in a parking lot because I don't know who's inside the van. But I just don't dwell on it. Now when I was away on military duty, I would come back and my wife would have big circles under her eyes and everything And I guess every time the wind blew a branch of a tree outside, she was thinking that, you know, somebody was gonna come in.

[Interviewer/Host]

You say he threatened to kill you four times.

[Stephen Kay]

Three times. Three times he threatened to kill.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is on top of what Squeaky and Sandy did.

[Stephen Kay]

Yes, yes, yes. He threatened to kill me one time during the. The first trial, he said he was going to bring murder and bloodshed down on my head. The second time, he was in trial for the Hinman and Shea murders. I wasn't prosecuting that case. Anthony Manzella was, who was my best friend. And I went to visit him in court and Manson saw me and he looked at me and he said, I thought we got rid of you. And the third time was one of the parole hearings at Vacaville. And he told me that he was going to have me murdered on my way to the car, my car, after the hearing.

[Mary Knoff]

There are so many things in life that we never get around to. Taking up that hobby, cleaning out the garage, you know, little things that don't really make a huge difference in our lives. Yet there's one thing that most of us have probably been neglecting that can have a huge impact on our family's future. It's life insurance. And with Selectquote, getting covered with the right policy for you is easier and more affordable than you may think. Selectquote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience. Other life insurance brokers offer impersonal, one size fits all policies that may cost you more and cover you less. While Selectquote's licensed insurance agents work for you to tailor a life insurance policy for your individual needs. In as little as 15 minutes. Head to selectquote.com and a licensed insurance agent will call you right away with the right policy for your life and your budget. Get the right life insurance for you for less at selectquote.com crimesofthetimes go to selectquote.com crimesofthetimestoday to get started. That's selectquote.com crimesofthetims.

[Jonathan Shifflet]

Have you ever woken up with a funky symptom and immediately googled it to see what's wrong? We've all gone down that rabbit hole, but it's time to get the help and care you really need with ZocDoc. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty. Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. I just used Zocdoc the other week and I got an appointment the same day. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com Crimesofthetimes and find and instantly book a top rated Doctor today. That's Zocdoc.com Crimesofthetimes Zocdoc.com CrimesoftheTimes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I'd love to know about the parole hearings. Tell me about the parole hearings that she began going to and went to for years and years. You went to dozens of them.

[Stephen Kay]

I went to 60 parole hearings for the five Tate LaBianca murder defendants.

[Interviewer/Host]

66, 060.

[Stephen Kay]

Yes. I went up until I retired. Now, originally, Manson and Van Houten, Krenwinkel and Atkins and Watson all had the death penalty. But in 1972, the California Supreme Court held the death penalty unconstitutional, cruel and unusual punishment. So everybody on death row there were 115 got their sentences commuted from death to life. And in those days, a life sentence, imprisonment, you were eligible for parole in seven years. The first pro hearing I went to was Patricia Krenwinkel's July 18, 1978. And she was so mad that I was there. She called me the F word. You know, what the F are you doing here? And I said, well, I'm here because I want to make sure that you don't get paroled because I know what you're capable of.

[Interviewer/Host]

Now, there's a story that comes to mind about you at these parole hearings where Manson is spending a lot of time in his cell with, he's doing crafts involving scorpions. Oh, could you tell me that story?

[Stephen Kay]

Oh, he, he was amazing with his, what he would do in his cell. One time they, they found in his shoe that he had razor blades concealed in the heel of his shoe. And he would, he had a scorpion. And he said at the hearing, he said that if he got paroled, he wanted to either be paroled to space or he wanted to be pearled to Death Valley so that he could live with his friends, the spiders and the snakes and the scorpions. And he was serious. That's where he wanted to be. Although I don't think he really realistically thought he was going to be paroled.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, there's this quote that I wanted to read to you that. Let's see here. Oh, yeah, 1986, parole. He's making Scorpions from sock thread threads of his socks. And you ask him why he does this and his response is, from the world of darkness. I did Loose demons and. And devils in the power of scorpions to torment. Right. Does that ring a bell or is this too.

[Stephen Kay]

Yeah, that vaguely rings a bell. I mean, he said so many, many things. I loved it. In the parole hearings, one of the parole hearings, he came in and he was wearing a shirt with a skull and crossbones on it. And then of course, you know, at the trial, he was exhibit A for the prosecution. And so he came into court one day and he had carved an X on his forehead. It was still bleeding. And he said he was xing himself out of society.

[Interviewer/Host]

And he lunged at the judge at one point with a pencil, right?

[Stephen Kay]

Oh yeah. He tried to stab the judge. And Judge Older told me later that he kept a SAP concealed under his bench. And he said that if Manson had got any closer, he would have whacked him with the SAP.

[Interviewer/Host]

In terms of the parole hearings, what were those like in terms of the people who you ran into there? I remember being told that there was a cadre of devil worshipers who followed Manson around and who held the Sharon Tate murder date sacred. Is this true?

[Stephen Kay]

Yes. One of the parole hearings at San Quentin, There were about 40 to 50 men dressed in black with silver and they were outside the prison chanting, Steve K. Go back to la. Steve K. Go back to la. Then later I learned that Manson had become the focal point of satanic worshipers in the United States, that they viewed him as the devil incarnate. Remember, Manson said that first he came as Jesus Christ and was crucified so that he came back as the the devil. And Watson, when he came into the Tate house, climbing through a dining room window, Frakowski was asleep on the sofa and, and Watson woke him up and said, I'm here. The I'm the devil here to do the devil's work.

[Jonathan Shifflet]

Hi, I'm Jonathan, one of the producers for Crimes of the Times. Before I became a dad, I thought I knew what tired felt like. But let me tell you, sleep deprivation hits differently when you're juggling a newborn and a full time job. Proper sleep is the foundation of whole body health. It increases focus, boosts energy and improves your mood. That's why we're so excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science backed healthy hot cocoa for sleep. I've tried other sleep aids, but dream is different. It's delicious. My go to is the cinnamon cocoa and totally guilt free. With only 15 calories and 0 grams of sugar. Other sleep aids can cause next day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful all natural blend of Reishi, magnesium, L theanine, apigenin and melatonin. To help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up refreshed. I just mix Dream with hot water and enjoy before bed. It's that easy. If you want to try Beam's best selling Dream powder. Get up to 40% off for a limited time when you go to shopbeam.com crimes and use code CRIMES at checkout. That's shop B-E-A-M.com crimes and use code CROSES for up to 40% off hi.

[Mary Knoff]

My name is Mary and I'm one of the producers of this show. I want to take a quick second to tell you about Quince. With Quince I get high end versatile pieces at prices I can afford. Quince has all the must haves like Mongolian Cashmere crewneck sweaters from $50, iconic 100% leather jackets and versatile flowknit activewear. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. I own the Mongolian Cashmere cardigan and it's one of the softest items in my closet. I swear I've worn this like twice a week since getting it. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com CrimesOfTheTime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com CrimesOfTheTime to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[CASA Advocate]

Quince.com CrimesOfTheTime I entered the foster care system at the age of 11 and I aged out at the age of 21 and it was not an easy time to be a foster child. It never is. Being in foster care, it really truly taught me resilience in a way that has set me up for life, but in a way that saddens me because no children should feel the feeling of survival, the need to be resil. At the end of the day they should be carefree and enjoy their childhood. So CASA is a non profit organization that stands for Court Appointed Special Advocate and they specialize in making sure that the child's needs are met, whether it's medical, health, educational and ensuring that the child is receiving the most ability they can.

[Christopher Goffard]

I'm talking to former Manson prosecutor Stephen Kay. In this segment, he talks about Dennis Wilson, one of the founding members of the Beach Boys, and his connection to the manson family. In 1968, a year before the infamous murders, Wilson picked up some of Manson's young female disciples while they were hitchhiking and they said they wanted to introduce the musician to their guru, Charlie. In no time, Manson and his followers moved into the musician's Sunset Boulevard home, which became the scene of acid fueled orgies. The Beach Boys even recorded one of Manson's songs. It's a reminder that Manson was an aspiring musician who could never land the record deal he was seeking, which seems to have inflamed his hatred. Wilson would say he knew why Manson did what he did and quote, someday I'll tell the world about the musician drowned in 1983.

[Interviewer/Host]

One thing I've learned doing this series, Crimes of the Times, is that people understand a lot of these famous cases only in the barest outlines. And there are a lot of misconceptions. People misremember things. People, you know, their impressions are formed by movies. But it's fascinating to talk to somebody who's actually there and knew a lot of these people. Are there any burning mysteries involving the Manson case that persist for you?

[Stephen Kay]

I think if there's anybody that I would want to know more from, it would be from Dennis Wilson.

[Interviewer/Host]

What do you think he might be able to tell us? What light do you think he could shed on it that we don't have?

[Stephen Kay]

I think that he was really close to Manson and Manson's desire to become a rock star. I mean, Dennis Wilson set him up with Terry Melcher.

[Interviewer/Host]

Were you not able to subpoena Dennis.

[Stephen Kay]

Wilson or they didn't want to have anything to do with this trial.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is there something in particular that you think he would know that we don't know now?

[Stephen Kay]

I think he knew Manson so well, probably better than anyone. And I would have loved to have talked to him about what Manson was like when they were living together. And that's where Manson met Tex Watson. Tex Watson was living with Dennis Wilson. Dennis Wilson picked Watson up hitchhiking.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let me get back to the Helter Skelter motor for just a minute.

[Stephen Kay]

Okay.

[Christopher Goffard]

I recall.

[Interviewer/Host]

Detectives finding some very strange stuff in the Manson compound involving scuba gear and golden rope. Right. Or gold colored rope. What's the significance of that?

[Stephen Kay]

Okay, so Manson told his, his followers, and it's interesting about the, the followers because some people think, oh, it sounds like there were like a hundred people in the family. Well, there were actually 30 people and the way we know it is because Manson applied for a Chevron credit card and he listed his 30 dependents. So we had a list of, of his family members. But he, he told his followers they would be living in the bottomless pit, which is written about in Revelations 9 of the Bible. And the way the entrance to the bottomless pit was through an underground river in Death Valley. And so we found a sporting goods store in Santa Monica that had rented, I think Bruce Davis, the scuba equipment. And also, Manson said that to get into the bottomless pit, you had to be lowered with golden rope. And we found that he had bought golden rope. Golden rope which Watson took into the Tate residence and hung Sharon Tate from a beam going across the ceiling. Now, it wasn't real gold rope, it was gold colored rope.

[Interviewer/Host]

So you found the receipt for the scuba gear, but not the scuba gear?

[Stephen Kay]

No.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so this is evidence of just how seriously they took the Helter Skelter idea.

[Stephen Kay]

Oh, yes. And Manson told his followers that while in the bottomless pit, that they would grow to, they would go in miniaturized form and they would grow to 144,000 like the 12 tribes of Israel.

[Interviewer/Host]

So he's got these visions of being sort of a post apocalyptic messiah, right. And he's trying to provoke the war that, that brings that about.

[Stephen Kay]

And when they were on LSD and, and listening to the, the White Album, one of the things he would do is he would recreate the crucifixion. He would tell them that the first time he came to Earth, he came as Jesus Christ and he got crucified. So this time he was coming as the devil. He would stretch his arms out and say how it felt when they were driving the nails in his hands and into his feet. And Mary Bruner would play the role of Mary Magdalene and would be at his feet crying. We know that many of his followers believe that he was Jesus.

[Interviewer/Host]

So which of the witnesses are you getting this stuff from? Do you remember who in particular is describing this?

[Stephen Kay]

Leslie Van Houten made a tape recording with her attorney, Marvin Part, her first attorney. And it was like a two hour interview where she goes into all of this about the bottom and 144,000. Paul Watkins was a good confidant of Manson and he related all this stuff to Paul.

[Interviewer/Host]

So there are a lot of witnesses who are saying basically the same thing about his obsession with this theory.

[Stephen Kay]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

How many unsolved murders do you think might be laid at the feet of the Manson family? I mean, we know about nine we know Tate LaBianca, Gary Hinman and Shorty Shea. Right. That's nine.

[Stephen Kay]

We prosecuted all the ones that we could prove. Manson at one time when he was in custody told one of his cellmates that they had killed like 34 people. So I don't know. All I can say is the nine murders we prosecuted him for, those were the ones that we could prove, nothing else.

[Interviewer/Host]

But it wouldn't surprise you if there were many more.

[Stephen Kay]

Oh no.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wasn't a man murdered in London during the time Bruce Davis was there? His throat was slashed?

[Stephen Kay]

Yes. Sandy Good's husband. Sandy Good's husband was there and Manson was upset that Sandy Good had gotten married.

[Interviewer/Host]

And oh yeah, I didn't like the guy.

[Stephen Kay]

Didn't like the guy and didn't like the fact that Blue, his star girl, got married. The authorities ruled that it was a suicide. But there was writing on the mirror, which they, they didn't, the authorities didn't preserve. He had had his throat slash, his wrist slashed and he was up against the front door like he was of his apart hotel room, like he was trying to get out. A police officer had to, had to force in the door to, to get into the room. And it was a first floor room so somebody could have gotten in from, from the outside but they never checked for fingerprints or anything.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so that seems like a plausible candidate for another murder. And then there was that there was the Russian roulette incident.

[Stephen Kay]

Right, where Bruce Davis was there. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Every day that passes though the likelihood of any other crimes being provably the Manson family diminishes.

[Stephen Kay]

Oh yeah. I think long past.

[Interviewer/Host]

Stephen K. Thank you for your time.

[Stephen Kay]

You're more than welcome.

[Christopher Goffard]

From LA Times Studios, this is Crimes of the Times. To read more about these cases, check out Crimes of the [e-mail] we also have a link to our video episodes in the show notes. This episode was written and reported by me, your host, Christopher Goffard. Our senior producers are Mary Knoff and Jonathan Shifflet. Executive editor is Deborah Anderloo. Associate producer is Jordan Patterson. Video editing by Cooper Kenward. Production services provided by JTB Studios. Our camera technicians and operators are Jeff Amlott, Julian McCabe and Jason Newbert with additional production support from Andrew Gombert, Patrick Stewart and Ann Marie Hauser. Denise Callahan is our studio manager. Ben Church is our production manager. Special thanks to LA Times Studios president Anna Mazanian, President and chief operating officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Argenteri and executive editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang. Crimes of the Times is executive produced and co created by Darius, Derek Schon and me, Christopher Goffard.