Declan Hill (2:35)

Crime Waves format because it's literally an online lecture from a master detective on the work that he did on this case. And two warnings. It will feature some pretty gruesome crime scene photos, so please be aware of that and don't obviously let children see it.

Brigitte Hairston (2:53)

2 When we did the interview, Dr.

Declan Hill (2:57)

Lee was in his forensic laboratory and the sound is terrible.

Brigitte Hairston (3:01)

We didn't realize it at this time,

Declan Hill (3:03)

but you can hear various lab Sounds and technical problems. However, we think this episode is so good, we're airing it as a video. And we hope you can struggle through this bad sound quality because the content is extraordinary. And now, Dr. Henry Seely.

Brigitte Hairston (3:20)

So tell us about February 3rd, 2003 and the murder case that you got involved with. With who? With a man who'd be known as the greatest music producer in the 20th century. Phil Spector.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (3:35)

Okay, that's a good question. All my life you must have a lot of cases. And one of the case I will never forget is this case. You probably heard January 16th this year. The news inform us Phil Spector died in the prison because of COVID 19. Yes, you know the history. I don't want to repeat.

Brigitte Hairston (4:12)

I'm not sure that all our listeners will know who Phil Spector was because he was such a giant in the 1960s and 70s. So could you tell us a little bit about him, please?

Dr. Henry C. Lee (4:22)

Yes, you are absolute correct. In 1969, he's record producer. He did a lot of interesting taping. Also developed one of the things he did all of the song so the music become like a 3D. And he recorded a song for John Lyling's Harry Nelson, Tina Turner, Rolling Stone. Of course, Beatles make him so famous. But unfortunately, in the peak of his career, some tragedy happened. One day his son, 7 years old have a Burskin party. Unfortunately drum in the swimming pool. Since then he started using alcohol and gradually drugs and being a now Detox Center. On February 2, 2003, she loner Clark. That time the victim of this crime was working in this bar House of Blue. Somehow Phil Spector that night was eating in a different restaurant. The young witches really treat her fuel. Specter so good and it's $30 dinner. He give a $500 tip. So the young lady requests her request him try to go to House of Blue to meet some other Hollywood characters. So once they get there, House of Blue. So the music was playing and Phil Spector. Meet some other people. That May he went to mansion. So London Clark come over, Threw the young lady out of the bar. Say the ID is fake. When Phil Spectre back to the table, talk to him. Say, I keep you company. That's somehow one thing lead to another. I went to his house. He live in a castle. Earlier of the morning, the driver hear a gunshot. According to him, he saw Phil Spector come out the back door with a gun and say, I think I shot her. But Phil Spector denied. He did say that. Police was called right away this castle become A crime scene. When they enter the back entry area from London, Clark's body. She died of a single gunshot. In the mouse, they notice there are a couple of handguns in this room. Also, they found a handgun next to her head. Initially they classify as accidental deaths, but subsequently you mastered the case that based on limo driver's statement, it changed to a homicide. That night they mobilized 107 detectives, police officer, coroner's office, medical examiner searched the crime scene. The Kramsteen area, just a small entrance, 5ft by 5ft. Phil Spector was arrested and booked, charged for homicide. His lawyer, Bob Shapiro. Right away, contact myself and Dr. Bodden. Ask for our assistance. So we will flow to Los Angeles

Brigitte Hairston (10:38)

Police and Dr. Lee, let's just. I just want to take a step back. So you were contacted within the first 24 hours of Lana Clarkson being killed or Lana Clarkson being found dead. And what were your thoughts when you got that phone call

Dr. Henry C. Lee (10:59)

which we usually. Because that time already. As you know, I started my career in 1960 as a police captain in Taiwan. Yes. I come to the United States. I work at the NYU Medical Center. Then I subsequently get my doctoral degree in molecular biologics. Then 1975 I joined University New Haven as a professor. 1978, Jones State Police as their laboratory. Forensic laboratory director. So after serving the state police 25 years, first time. Then my governor appointed me as the commissioner. Then in year 2000, I retired again become chief emeritus. That time we took a lot of consulting case because University New Haven we want to build a forensic program so need extra funding. So all those cases, consultation money they usually donate to University New Haven or Connecticut State Police forensic lab. This is one of the case I accept as a consultant piece. Okay.

Brigitte Hairston (12:29)

One. One note, Dr. Lee. We're hearing something in the background of the sound. Is there. Is there another machine going on in. In your office?

Dr. Henry C. Lee (12:39)

Apparently so many machine going on, so many things going on. I don't know. Let's. Let's see.

Brigitte Hairston (12:50)

Okay. No, don't fool with this cuz it's very, very interesting. I just wanted to check if there was something really obvious going on in the background. But that's fine.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (13:00)

Yeah, the institute have a lot of instruments going on.

Brigitte Hairston (13:05)

Not a problem. I understand it's a forensic laboratory, so we'll live with that. So you get a phone call. You're in New Haven at the University of New Haven. And you're asked to fly across the country to examine this crime scene. So please tell us what you found when you got there.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (13:21)

Well, we flew as you know, it's not a short distance driving. And so we flew the red eye, got there, got to the first thing the lawyer picked us up. We went to the hospital that fuel spectre already bailed out. So Dr. Baden and myself check to see any injury. Because if Phil Spector Leonard Clark had a fight or ask the police serialized. He tried to have sex with London Clark and she refused. And that's how the tragedy happened. We should have some found some injury. In addition, we want to look at his hand any scratches, any gunpowder residue or blood spatter. We also want to check his clothing and his face which we did not find any obvious injury. Okay, so the next thing of course we carefully check. We found one little scratch. Apparently when police handcuffing caused that injury. So later was verified that's due to the police arrest they handcuffed his hand. The next thing we they took us to his castle and to check the kremsky. So we enter front of friend door and he have a wall of testimony and all those famous musicians and citations. That's the piano she apparently Ronald Clark. And he was playing piano and singing. According to Phil Spector. They left the house of blue. She took a bottle of tequila. Two of them went to his house. They drank the whole bottle, which we was able to verify. Then they start singing. He played piano. By two o' clock he said I'm too tired, I want to sleep and my driver will take you home. And he's. You know, this is his living room, middle of the night. Some of the investigator this is a Los Angeles detective and a couple people having pizza. And we look at the crime scene. Of course, by the time when I get there, her body already removed. The chair already. She sat down already removed. Pocketbook done. And all the weapons everything removed. The only thing is the blood stand on the carpet. So Dr. Bodding and me we start working at the scene. When I look at the carpet, I notice a couple wide shred white color thread. So it's foreign to the bloodstain to the carpet. So anything foreign to the scene we should collect and preserve. So I collect those material, took the note and sees that labeled seal in a plastic evidence bag. Well, I want to give it to the Los Angeles police. They don't want it. Prosecutor doesn't want it. Defense attorney doesn't want it. So nobody want it. And as a good 406 scientists I kept it logged in. The carpet was cut see this evidence. So the case of course first thing have to determine that's a homicide suicide or accidental death. We can eliminate a natural cause. So is this homicide. Become an issue with forensic 111. We all know when you discharge a firearm, you go to have a GSR gunshot residue. It's combustion reaction of your trigger. Pull the trigger, then you'll have a trace element. Those elements consist of unburned on bars, partial burn powder, primer residue lubricant, barrel residue transfer and projectile material. So there are two methods to collect. One use an atomic absorption swab. The second one with SEM scanning electron microscope disk under SEM. That's what the gland shot residue looks like. Usually consists of barium, antimony and lead particles. So usually we collect the palm area. We check the Los Angeles medical examiner's office record. They did collect Leonard Clark and Field Specter's hand sample. They also put some notes shows a minor injury of a longer crosscan and some other material. So based on that, initially they say this is an accidental death, but subsequently become hamster. Usually you fire shot into your mouth. 99% of the time is self inflicted suicide. And usually create an injury inside of your intraoral cavity. And trajectory usually slightly goes up and no shield. Usually because the gun barrels stick inside the mouth, you have no external injury. And so based on those, those are the founding result, which are knowledge generally that's caused by a self inflicted wound. So based on medical examiners document a photograph and the inside the mouse injury. We check their own record that initially they mark questionable accident to accident or suicide. And they marked accident. So in other words, the initial determination is an accidental death. How that later become a homicide. In addition, they found toxicological report of a mono hydrocodone. Also polymo 4 alcohol concentration. So in other words, she is completely disoriented with that amount of alcohol. She is drunk. Based on our study and other research study, when you commit suicide, many times the bullet penetrate. But a lot of time it stopped. So if a penetration you go to have a lot of forward spider. But without this penetration, then all the spider tissue will blow back deposit on the shooter's head or sleeve or clothing. Of course, the weapon. Dr. Baden, Dr. DeMille, Dr. Rudd and everybody agree. We look at this scenario based on collective experience. We think this is most likely an accidental death or accidental.

Declan Hill (23:22)

Hey, it's Declan here. I just want to thank you so much for listening to Dr. Henry C. Lee explaining the Phil Spector case. We've been working on it quite hard, myself and the two producers, that's Brigitte Hairston and Alexia Miller. We want to apologize we know the sound quality is not very good. We put in subtitles as well. But really, Dr. Henry C. Lee is the master pioneer of this field in terms of linking DNA with crime scene investigation. He had, as you can tell from this podcast, primary access to this crime scene. And his perspective is amazing. So thank you again for listening and again we apologize for the sound quality.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (24:12)

46301 we always teaching students check the blood spatter evidence on the head. So people commit suicide usually have a blood spatter and blowback on her hand. Unfortunately, they did not take a very good picture at the scene autopsy picture did not find anything. But we did not have any close up autopsy picture except this field. You can see some blood there. And at the scene you can see some blood spiders, small blood spatter. So the weapon is covered with blood as you can see this picture. So not only that, we also have a tissue fragment, bone fragment deposit all over the weapon. Here is a close up shows abundant blood. So this is the weapon used by her and prosecution Los Angeles Laboratory own result show gunpowder residue on those weapons on her hand and her clothing. Because every time you shall fire, you create a lot of energy, not much energy. So the target area is not the worst. Also can form compound residue and the shooter's head. Anything escape from the cylinder gap can deposit on the shooter's head. So we did numerous experiments before and so that's why we want to verify her closing. We re exam I re examined her closing we found material but at the same time we check fused factors white cocktail jacket we dip on some few spots of blood but not blood spatter. They are just transferred blood spot and the most important is the sleep. We did not see any high velocity bliss pattern. If according to the prosecution theory he fired the shot should have a lot of listening. Meanwhile, when I look at her closing I found tremendous amount of bloodstand and also on the sleeve area on besides blood large amount of tissue material near the outer near of the sleeve cake in there. So with that we look at our past cases that experience this tremendous energy should have a lot of lungs. We did numerous experiments with different police as you can see the blue vibe at the University New Haven we run a lot of these gangsha reconstruction courses Many our students, many FBI agents, New York police police from Singapore from different places come to you having to learn how to reconstruct. As a matter of fact, give me one minute commercial the 44th Annual Marco Homicide Symposium going to be the November December 11th the topic for this year going to investigation of police Involving shooting case. So I hope two of you I can see you either in the class or in virtual. We give scholarship and share the information with other faculty and students. It's a once a lifetime experience. Should take this advantage when you are in school. So we check all the her clothing to see the bra and the panty give a forcible rape. Maybe have a torn panty holes or clothing. We even check out her eyelashes and everything. We did not find any foreign DNA. And no bloodstand under her fingernail. No tissue under her fingernail. When we rechecked the crime scene, we found couple high velocity blood spanner on the wall on the railing area. So that consistent with our reconstruction the shot fire. So you have some bloodstains. The yellow one represent little tooth tissue material from the staircase. The blue one was found by Los Angeles crime scene people. The white those are additional one we found after they released the sink. So which is consistent blowback. If somebody in between, for example field spectre fire the gun. He should intercept all those spider. Now most of the spider is on the carpet because carpet is red. Also the construction of the carpet very difficult to farm. And that's why we cut it portion of the carpet to look at that. So everything tell us that the crime scene is consistent with accidental death or suicide. Those are the scientific funding, DNA, everything. Meanwhile Leonard Clark fund. All those indicating no blood, no DNA. Yet she was fighting back and should have some DNA. The only thing we found is she have a fake nail. And her thumb left down artificial fingernail have a chip. So of course that become a pretty interesting thing. Because when we look at the picture, we found that the prosecution did not put anything in their record. Including the medical examiner. And of course there are some Connie Blustan which on her hand whether or not have more blood stamp, which we don't know, because this is the only picture Crime scene picture shows her hand. So we issue our report basically highlight our funding. I just share with everybody. So we have a reasonable document. Because all those result were fought. And prosecution meanwhile use limo driver's testimony. Filled specters, violent temper filled sepecter alcohol, drug bills and playgrounds. Those are nothing directly related to to this crap. It's not forensic evidence. So the first trial, which basically become a show. And of course the head become important. Unfortunately, today the lawyer they cannot discredit science. They decred discredited scientists. And when they trace the fact, they mean the scientists. So initially have four experts to testify. But they disqualified Dr. Wack because he appeared on Court TV, discussed the case. Before the trial, at the standard start of the trial, this fingernail become an issue. So have a special hearing. The first person they put on the stand, the airway detective. But by that time he retired. So at the direction he say, I look at it with my flashlight, I saw a fingernail. No big deal. You see them all the time. At the emergency. I saw. That's a piece of meat. It is a fingernail. I believe it's a fingernail. He continues, 16 inch thick. It was red. Also found ridges like a lead on the fingernail. So he basically say a red fingernail and a lead on it. At the cross, they ask, how did you see it? You are in the dining room eating. He said, I look at her with magnify gloss. So, defense attorney, what is your magnifying glass? He said, my eyeglasses is my magnifier. Say red fingernail polish. You just saw. Everybody saw her fake fingernail. Is that red. Hey, three of you. Did you.

Brigitte Hairston (35:43)

No, there was no. There was no red marks on that fingernail. That the half that was still attached to her.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (35:52)

Her.

Brigitte Hairston (35:53)

Her finger. So whatever it was would have been.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (35:58)

So he say it's a red fingernail. The most bizarre thing he said a whole fingernail. The second witness is a lawyer stayed put down. He said he saw a white tooth. Dr. Bobbitt took it. Dr. Lee did not take anything. So you think about witness statement. The twos. Emma. When they ask him more, he want to take a fifth. He doesn't want to testify anymore. Want to take a fifth. The third.

Brigitte Hairston (36:42)

Sorry, Dr. Lee, who is. Who's the. Who's the witness who wants to take a fifth? Who. And. And for the listeners, that's when they. That's when a witness refuses to continue testifying because they may be indicting themselves. So who is that witness?

Dr. Henry C. Lee (36:57)

He is a lawyer. That night was at the scene. He in a party. He talked to a police officer. He said he saw somebody took a piece of something. And of course, this police officer give the information to the detective. So he was subpoenaed to testify by prosecutor. Okay, all right. So that's. Wait a second. Somehow I lost my. But anyway, since it looks like I lost my son. The third witness testified she also a lawyer. She said she saw I took something white. And the prosecutor asked him is a size like a finger now? So she said yes. So now the prosecutor conclusion say I took the fingernail. So judge rule said, whatever I took have to submit to court as evidence. The newspaper, of course twist the story now become a Judge say hide hiding the evidence. Meanwhile, I was in Italy, teaching at the Berlona Medical School. They conduct this hearing without me Did I ever hear my side of story. So when I come back, I give a news conference. I say over that few years since the. Night to the here is four years in between. I wrote so many letters to everybody say I have some white threat. I collect it, do you want it? And all those lawyer response said keep it, we don't want it. So before the trial, before the hearing, I packed I sent to FedEx through FedEx sent to Los Angeles Laboratory. They signed the 5X report. So I tell judge what I collected here is in Los Angeles Police Department. It's not I don't have it anymore. So the judge ruled I'm not condemned in court. Everything is fine now. Of course it's not fingernail, it's red. It's not couple white thread. How many newspaper apologize are correct? Only two on page 40. Little tiny sink. The rest of the just still sink. I took the finger. So this is an example shows keep a good record. If I did not keep a good record, they probably think I left fingernail. Of course, during the trial, fingernail never come up, never become evidence. The far first trial become a hung jury. The second trial, I tell the lawyer I don't want to be participating because nobody want to find out the truth. Everybody just tried to diminish somebody. Prosecution tried to say fierce factor as a chronic alcoholic and bad temper. Want to play guns. And defense tried to say Leonard Clark over the prom. No moving truck become my bar bouncer. She can't even pay the rent. The last message email message she sent out saying if I don't find a mail ticket, I can't. I probably want to kill myself. All those instead of trying to look at the scientific evidence. That's why I did not participate. The second trial he was convicted but on appeal he died in prison. So that's the end of SS story. Phil Spector, a musician, a genius in music. Donald Clark, a good movie actress. Somehow, maybe Faye. They don't know each other. They never met before. But that night, somehow something happened. It's a great lesson to I'm glad you remind me to talk about this case where I learned so much about this case. So with younger people choosing law enforcement, police or forensic as Korean keep back the record, whatever you do document and some days sometimes maybe protect you. I'm glad what I did kept record. Otherwise nobody would believe me. That everybody going to think I took a fingernail. Even though you saw the picture, just a fake fingernail, a little break. Initially, they want to say Lonnie Clark tried to defend herself. Phil Spector used a gun. So when defending herself, the gun projectile took a piece of fingernail out and

Brigitte Hairston (43:57)

Dr. Lee, I think the thing that I find most interesting is the difference between the science of the crime scene investigation where you're taking, you know, you're taking all this personal stuff away and you're looking at blood splatters, you're looking at DNA, you're looking at the thing that the gun traces, the gsr, right? And then you put it in a very personal, gladiatorial and atmosphere of a courtroom where it behooves the lawyers to attack the prosecution or the defense witnesses personally. So there's two completely conflicting cultures there. One is science and the other one is a kind of soap opera type art.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (44:49)

You're right. Absolute your observations right on the spot. Okay, I said scientists we obligated to give scientific fact to the court, to the jury, relay the fact to them, nothing more. Let them make the decision. But on the other hand, the lawyer want to twist the fact, want to inject personal lifestyle. For example, O.J. simpson case, a DNA scientist, he got Nobel prize for event pcr. He test for defense prosecution. Instead of focus on DNA, they just ask, were you in college? Have you ever smoked a marijuana cigarette? Nothing to do with DNA. Nothing. But to ask a question, did you smoke marijuana?

Brigitte Hairston (46:03)

I mean, that whole O.J. simpson trial, which you were part of, was such a soap opera of Hollywood styles. We're speaking in front of two students who, and I don't mean this in a patronizing way, you weren't born during the O.J. simpson trial. But I remember, I remember our workday stopped. I was up a Canadian journalist and I and the entire building, both the journalists and everybody else, we stopped when that verdict was to be announced and everybody ran to a television because we barely had Internet in those days. I mean, the Internet was just beginning.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (46:42)

You're given the stock market and country office. Everybody stopped.

Brigitte Hairston (46:49)

Everybody stopped. Now, Dr. Lee, you've been involved in these high profile law cases, you know, for 20, 30, 40 years now. Is this case with the Phil Spector, was that the worst one you've seen where they.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (47:06)

One of the worst one. Now, of course, later, I often tell the public, let that evidence speak for itself. I'm a scientist, I'm not getting Martin pissing contest. I just give you the fact. Whatever the jury judge make a decision. Nothing I can do about it. And history Will prove everything history later did prove. Of course, a lot of people now agree. Phil Spector just become a stakeholder. Because Phil Spector he goes to court not because he really want to wear wigs. People think he's weirdo wear all kind of different wigs, different color. Yes, because he have a cancer or something. He lost all the hair. He was on radiation, he doesn't have hairs. And so he put away. Look younger, by the way. He is one year younger than me. Yeah, just over the year. Word him up. So that's why you have to have a filthy living style. Don't drink excessively, don't use drugs. But this case taught me a great lesson. This case also taught prosecutor the lesson. He lost election. And also later they started investigation a lot of unfortunately police misconduct Yemen cases. And eventually fact will come out. But I'm glad I did thorough documentation protect my reputation and the integrity of the forensic evidence. That's why high profile case. A lot of people think I enjoyed it. I don't. I really don't look for them. They come to look for me. That's why I'm so glad I retired five times. Like a recent case, there's the honeymooner and unfortunately she was found dead. His body was recently found in Florida. Yes, a lot of news media called me. A lot of people call me, want me to comment. And of course that case, obviously something happened, it's a homicide, could be his death, it could be a suicide. And as far as how that happened, how developed you have to look at the scene, the body, the location where she was found. Is that the primary scene or secondary scene? Like the location his body was found? You have to think of the environment, the temperature, the animal, insect, bacterial activity. Because a lot of people question say how fast and that's too fast. His body becomes galactomized. If you think about a bartima scientist will look at a scientific fact. You can't just inject your personal. Yes, we have to forget ourselves.

Brigitte Hairston (51:26)

Speaking about forgetting ourselves. The reason why we started Crime Waves podcast was I was having lunch at the University of New Haven with Tim Palmbach, Angie Ambers and Claire Glynn. And they were talking. I was eating noodles. And it was the worst disgusting noodles. Most fascinating lunch I have ever had because I'm eating my cold noodles in the University of New Haven lunchroom. And these three forensic scientists, all of whom are proteges of yours, Dr. Lee started talking about body farm and how bodies. You know, you put a farm of dead bodies and then you study them scientifically. How their bodies disintegrate? Do the insects eat them? Depending on the temperature. Depending on that. After about two minutes of this disgusting but fascinating conversation, I had to put my noodles aside and say, guys, this is the most disgusting but interesting conversation I've ever listened to. But it's really a science. It's the science of this forensic. And then you see and you get into a concert, you know, of a law court where everything depends on personalities. Dr. Lee, thank you very much for sharing your time with myself and my students today. This has been a master class in forensic science. We really hope you'll come back and speak about some of your other cases with us.

Dr. Henry C. Lee (52:54)

Sure, sure. More than happy. Thank you for your mind in me.

Declan Hill (52:57)

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for watching this episode of Crime Waves. It was a master class with Dr. Henry C? Le on the Phil Spector Lana Clarkson crime Scene Investigation. If you liked it and or if you like the podcast in general, please follow us on social media. It's super important. And in the meantime, stay tuned for the next episode of Crime Waves.