CrimeWaves Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: Michael Franzese: The Rules of the Mob

Host: Declan Hill
Guest: Michael Franzese
Date: April 4, 2023
Recording Context: University of New Haven criminology class

Overview

In this episode, host Declan Hill interviews Michael Franzese, former capo of the Colombo crime family, about the inner workings, codes, and rules of the American Mafia. The episode explores Franzese's personal journey into and out of organized crime, the governing codes such as omertà, law enforcement and political corruption, and the realities faced by mobsters and their families. It also includes a candid Q&A between Franzese and criminology students.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Franzese’s Background and Entry into the Mob

[04:20]

Family Legacy: Franzese grew up in Brooklyn; his father was the underboss of the Colombo family.
His father insisted he pursue a legitimate career, but a sense of family loyalty and the belief that his father was wrongly imprisoned pulled him "inside."
Blood In, Blood Out: Membership required sponsorship and a "recruit" period. Initiated on Halloween 1975.

Quote:

“You can't just go up to somebody and say, ‘Hey, I'd like to join.’ Somebody has to propose you and vouch for you. In my case, it was my dad.”
— Michael Franzese, [05:45]

2. Leaving the Mob—The Impossible Exit

[09:53]

He didn’t “quit loudly” but gradually moved to California, changed his daily patterns, avoided risky behaviors, and communicated that he wasn’t threatening anyone.
Survived suspicion through caution and time, as his peers either died or were imprisoned.
Despite leaving, cannot safely return to his old neighborhood.

Quote:

“One of the horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room and you don’t walk out again.”
— Michael Franzese, [10:07]

3. The Code of the Mafia (Rules and Omertà)

[14:20]

Omertà (Oath of Silence): Legendary mafia code; above all, never admit the existence of the organization or the identity of its members.
Violation led to the downfall of Cosa Nostra in the United States.
Hierarchical respect: Never raise your hand to, or call another ‘made guy’ a liar.

Quote:

“...Omertà means silence...It’s not an oath to lie, steal, cheat and kill. That's not what you're agreeing to do. You're agreeing to never, ever, ever even admit the existence of Cosa Nostra.”
— Michael Franzese, [14:22]

4. Power, Structure, and Reality of Mobsters

[18:58]

Majority of ‘made men’ were “just getting by” — only a small core were influential, savvy, and capable.
Legendary figures (e.g., Costello, Gambino, Lansky) combined intelligence, ruthlessness, and business acumen.
The mob’s power reached into unions and up to national politics.

Quote:

“We had so much control from...the guy on the street right into the White House. You don’t do that by being dumb.”
— Michael Franzese, [19:44]

5. Rules on Violence, Drugs, and Internal Discipline

[20:53]

Prohibited to harm or insult other made men; drugs strictly off-limits—dealing drugs “meant death.”
Some broke these rules but faced lethal consequences if caught.

Quote:

“The night I got made, I was told straight out, you deal with drugs, you die.”
— Michael Franzese, [21:30]

6. Law Enforcement & Political Corruption

[23:05]

Mob infiltrated law enforcement and had many “on payroll”—information leaks, influence, and security.
Political influence via union voting blocs, fundraising, and direct contact with powerful officials.
Example: Democratic leader Meade Esposito helped him secure vital licenses for scams.

Quote:

“There was a police station in Brooklyn that at two o’clock in the morning, I could go up there, open their file cabinet and see everything I want to see. Of course, he was on my payroll.”
— Michael Franzese, [23:43]

7. Impact on Mobsters’ Families

[24:40]

Mob life “devastates every family involved”—addiction, estrangement, paranoia, violence, and prison.
Franzese’s own family suffered deeply; his mother endured 33 years without her husband, siblings struggled with drugs and conflict.

Quote:

“The mob life is pretty much an evil lifestyle because I don’t know any family of any member of that life that hasn’t been devastated, including my own.”
— Michael Franzese, [24:44]

8. State of Organized Crime Today

[29:00]

Cosa Nostra in America survives but isn’t as prominent; operates more covertly than in the past.
Current threats come more from other syndicates and street gangs—MS-13, Sinaloa—who are more overtly violent but less sophisticated.

9. Corporate America and the "Mafia Democracy"

[31:06]

Franzese draws comparisons between mob tactics and modern governmental and corporate behaviors, particularly highlighting the opioid epidemic.
Promotes his book, “Mafia Democracy,” which explores these parallels.

Quote:

“Not only in corporate America, but our government, how mob life—it’s behaving.”
— Michael Franzese, [31:10]

Student Q&A Highlights

Media Representation of the Mob

[34:21]

Franzese: Crime fascination is global; authentic portrayals matter most, even if dramatic liberties are taken.
“They're never going to stop making them [mob films]. Authenticy means a lot to me... it can't be so inauthentic I can't watch it.”
— Michael Franzese, [35:23]

Tattoos and Symbolism

[36:26]

The American Mafia discouraged tattoos for security reasons, unlike Yakuza or other gangs where tattoos are symbolic and required.

Recruitment and Initiation

[38:22]

Recruitment took ~2.5 years, doing everything required without question, often menial; violence sometimes involved; initiation ceremony was secretive, sudden.

Is Love or Fear More Powerful in the Mob?

[41:07]

Contradicts “better to be feared;” says love is the stronger, but rarer, bond. Fear led to betrayals as law enforcement pressure increased.

Quote:

“...Love is the strongest bond you can have to protect somebody.”
— Michael Franzese, [42:34]

Police Corruption and Law Enforcement Ethics

[43:33]

Corruption has persisted, but at highest levels, even vast wealth couldn’t always influence outcomes.
Urges aspiring law enforcement never to break the law to catch lawbreakers.

Quote:

“I don't believe law enforcement ever has the right to break the law to catch lawbreakers… that's when democracy goes out the window.”
— Michael Franzese, [45:45]

Family Betrayal and Informant Testimony

[46:48]

Franzese describes the pain when his brother testified against their father, and the lasting disruptions betrayal causes in families.

Relationship with the Italian Mob & Russian Partners

[49:57], [51:36]

U.S. and Italian mafias respect each other but operate separately.
His Russian associates were excellent partners but faced harsh ends after he left the life.

Enduring Nature of Organized Crime

[56:16]

Organized crime persists; government priorities shift, but the underworld adapts, and “guys on the street...aren't going anywhere.”

Memorable Moments & Quotes

On Life After the Mob:

“In the end, I won because I’m alive and free, and I have a life that is incredibly... [fulfilling].”
— Michael Franzese, [64:05]
On Betrayal and Reflection:

“Who do we trust in this life?”
— Michael Franzese, [63:52]
On Informants & Loyalty:

“People want to save themselves—they’ll go to great extent not to go to prison. Trust me on that.”
— Michael Franzese, [48:26]

Noteworthy Timestamps

[04:20] Franzese’s story of becoming a mobster
[09:50] How he orchestrated his exit
[14:20] The code of omertà and Mafia rules
[18:58] Discussion on types of mobsters
[23:05] Mob’s ties to law enforcement and politics
[24:40] Family costs of the lifestyle
[29:00] Current state of organized crime
[31:06] Parallels with corporate/government structures
[34:21] Views on mob media representations
[38:22] Initiation and recruitment process
[41:07] Love vs. fear in retaining loyalty
[43:33] Police corruption and investigative ethics
[49:57] Mob’s international connections
[51:36] Russian mob partners and leaving the life
[56:16] Can organized crime ever end?
[58:27] Mob’s involvement in sports gambling
[61:13] Defining moments that prompted him to leave

Conclusion

This episode provides a rare and candid look into the mindset, traditions, and inner conflicts at the heart of organized crime. Franzese’s reflections—both pragmatic and deeply personal—offer listeners insight into the codes that both united and destroyed men within the Mafia, the lasting impact on their families, and the eternal cat-and-mouse between organized crime and society.

Recommended Reading from Michael Franzese:

Mafia Democracy
I’ll Make You an Offer You Can’t Refuse

[For more episodes and details, visit crimewavespodcast.com.]

CrimeWaves Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: Michael Franzese: The Rules of the Mob

Host: Declan Hill
Guest: Michael Franzese
Date: April 4, 2023
Recording Context: University of New Haven criminology class

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Franzese’s Background and Entry into the Mob

[04:20]

Family Legacy: Franzese grew up in Brooklyn; his father was the underboss of the Colombo family.
His father insisted he pursue a legitimate career, but a sense of family loyalty and the belief that his father was wrongly imprisoned pulled him "inside."
Blood In, Blood Out: Membership required sponsorship and a "recruit" period. Initiated on Halloween 1975.

Quote:

“You can't just go up to somebody and say, ‘Hey, I'd like to join.’ Somebody has to propose you and vouch for you. In my case, it was my dad.”
— Michael Franzese, [05:45]

2. Leaving the Mob—The Impossible Exit

[09:53]

He didn’t “quit loudly” but gradually moved to California, changed his daily patterns, avoided risky behaviors, and communicated that he wasn’t threatening anyone.
Survived suspicion through caution and time, as his peers either died or were imprisoned.
Despite leaving, cannot safely return to his old neighborhood.

Quote:

“One of the horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room and you don’t walk out again.”
— Michael Franzese, [10:07]

3. The Code of the Mafia (Rules and Omertà)

[14:20]

Omertà (Oath of Silence): Legendary mafia code; above all, never admit the existence of the organization or the identity of its members.
Violation led to the downfall of Cosa Nostra in the United States.
Hierarchical respect: Never raise your hand to, or call another ‘made guy’ a liar.

Quote:

“...Omertà means silence...It’s not an oath to lie, steal, cheat and kill. That's not what you're agreeing to do. You're agreeing to never, ever, ever even admit the existence of Cosa Nostra.”
— Michael Franzese, [14:22]

4. Power, Structure, and Reality of Mobsters

[18:58]

Majority of ‘made men’ were “just getting by” — only a small core were influential, savvy, and capable.
Legendary figures (e.g., Costello, Gambino, Lansky) combined intelligence, ruthlessness, and business acumen.
The mob’s power reached into unions and up to national politics.

Quote:

“We had so much control from...the guy on the street right into the White House. You don’t do that by being dumb.”
— Michael Franzese, [19:44]

5. Rules on Violence, Drugs, and Internal Discipline

[20:53]

Prohibited to harm or insult other made men; drugs strictly off-limits—dealing drugs “meant death.”
Some broke these rules but faced lethal consequences if caught.

Quote:

“The night I got made, I was told straight out, you deal with drugs, you die.”
— Michael Franzese, [21:30]

6. Law Enforcement & Political Corruption

[23:05]

Mob infiltrated law enforcement and had many “on payroll”—information leaks, influence, and security.
Political influence via union voting blocs, fundraising, and direct contact with powerful officials.
Example: Democratic leader Meade Esposito helped him secure vital licenses for scams.

Quote:

“There was a police station in Brooklyn that at two o’clock in the morning, I could go up there, open their file cabinet and see everything I want to see. Of course, he was on my payroll.”
— Michael Franzese, [23:43]

7. Impact on Mobsters’ Families

[24:40]

Mob life “devastates every family involved”—addiction, estrangement, paranoia, violence, and prison.
Franzese’s own family suffered deeply; his mother endured 33 years without her husband, siblings struggled with drugs and conflict.

Quote:

“The mob life is pretty much an evil lifestyle because I don’t know any family of any member of that life that hasn’t been devastated, including my own.”
— Michael Franzese, [24:44]

8. State of Organized Crime Today

[29:00]

Cosa Nostra in America survives but isn’t as prominent; operates more covertly than in the past.
Current threats come more from other syndicates and street gangs—MS-13, Sinaloa—who are more overtly violent but less sophisticated.

9. Corporate America and the "Mafia Democracy"

[31:06]

Franzese draws comparisons between mob tactics and modern governmental and corporate behaviors, particularly highlighting the opioid epidemic.
Promotes his book, “Mafia Democracy,” which explores these parallels.

Quote:

“Not only in corporate America, but our government, how mob life—it’s behaving.”
— Michael Franzese, [31:10]

Student Q&A Highlights

Media Representation of the Mob

[34:21]

Franzese: Crime fascination is global; authentic portrayals matter most, even if dramatic liberties are taken.
“They're never going to stop making them [mob films]. Authenticy means a lot to me... it can't be so inauthentic I can't watch it.”
— Michael Franzese, [35:23]

Tattoos and Symbolism

[36:26]

The American Mafia discouraged tattoos for security reasons, unlike Yakuza or other gangs where tattoos are symbolic and required.

Recruitment and Initiation

[38:22]

Recruitment took ~2.5 years, doing everything required without question, often menial; violence sometimes involved; initiation ceremony was secretive, sudden.

Is Love or Fear More Powerful in the Mob?

[41:07]

Contradicts “better to be feared;” says love is the stronger, but rarer, bond. Fear led to betrayals as law enforcement pressure increased.

Quote:

“...Love is the strongest bond you can have to protect somebody.”
— Michael Franzese, [42:34]

Police Corruption and Law Enforcement Ethics

[43:33]

Corruption has persisted, but at highest levels, even vast wealth couldn’t always influence outcomes.
Urges aspiring law enforcement never to break the law to catch lawbreakers.

Quote:

“I don't believe law enforcement ever has the right to break the law to catch lawbreakers… that's when democracy goes out the window.”
— Michael Franzese, [45:45]

Family Betrayal and Informant Testimony

[46:48]

Franzese describes the pain when his brother testified against their father, and the lasting disruptions betrayal causes in families.

Relationship with the Italian Mob & Russian Partners

[49:57], [51:36]

U.S. and Italian mafias respect each other but operate separately.
His Russian associates were excellent partners but faced harsh ends after he left the life.

Enduring Nature of Organized Crime

[56:16]

Organized crime persists; government priorities shift, but the underworld adapts, and “guys on the street...aren't going anywhere.”

Memorable Moments & Quotes

On Life After the Mob:

“In the end, I won because I’m alive and free, and I have a life that is incredibly... [fulfilling].”
— Michael Franzese, [64:05]
On Betrayal and Reflection:

“Who do we trust in this life?”
— Michael Franzese, [63:52]
On Informants & Loyalty:

“People want to save themselves—they’ll go to great extent not to go to prison. Trust me on that.”
— Michael Franzese, [48:26]

Noteworthy Timestamps

[04:20] Franzese’s story of becoming a mobster
[09:50] How he orchestrated his exit
[14:20] The code of omertà and Mafia rules
[18:58] Discussion on types of mobsters
[23:05] Mob’s ties to law enforcement and politics
[24:40] Family costs of the lifestyle
[29:00] Current state of organized crime
[31:06] Parallels with corporate/government structures
[34:21] Views on mob media representations
[38:22] Initiation and recruitment process
[41:07] Love vs. fear in retaining loyalty
[43:33] Police corruption and investigative ethics
[49:57] Mob’s international connections
[51:36] Russian mob partners and leaving the life
[56:16] Can organized crime ever end?
[58:27] Mob’s involvement in sports gambling
[61:13] Defining moments that prompted him to leave

Conclusion

Recommended Reading from Michael Franzese:

Mafia Democracy
I’ll Make You an Offer You Can’t Refuse

[For more episodes and details, visit crimewavespodcast.com.]