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- [00:01]
Declan Hill
Michael Francis was a very successful member of the Mob. For nearly 20 years. He was a soldier and then capo of the Mafia Colombo crime family of New York. And he joins us on this episode to talk about the rules of organized crime, how it governs itself, and how a criminal survives and thrives in the underworld. Giovanni Falcone and Thomas Boschetta met in a prison cell. And at first, neither man spoke a word. It was perhaps the most important meeting in the history of the Italian Mafia. Giovanni Falcone was a giant among the legions of good, decent people who fought against organized crime. He was the best of the best. He was the most successful prosecutor in the history of modern day Italian mob. And on the other side of the table in this prison cell was Thomas Beccetta, who is a traditional godfather of a particular clan of the Sicilian Mafia. Now there was a war going on and his clan had been decimated. His brother, his son, and many others of his friends and family had been killed. He'd just flown back from Brazil where he'd been hiding, and he met Falcone in a prison cell. But they both started in the same place. They'd both been children on the streets of Palermo, and they understood each other and they understood the rules of the culture. Thus, there was complete silence between the two men for a long time. They looked at each other for 20 minutes, and then Giovanni Falcone pulled out a packet of cigarettes and pushed them across the table towards Beccetta. The Mafia godfather said nothing. And then slowly he reached out and pulled up a cigarette. And in that one gesture, Bruschetta showed that he had crossed the line, that he would turn informant. And he was the highest ranking member of the Mafia to ever work with law enforcement. And his testimony would bring about those great maxi trials where hundreds of mafiosi were put on trial and then convicted. And it brought about a virtual civil war between the Italian state and. And the Mafia. And it all began with one simple gesture. Because Giovanni Falcone understood the code. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to Crimeways. I'm Declan Hill, the host. And as regular listeners know, this podcast is done out of the Henry C. Lee College of Criminology and Forensic Science here at the University of New Haven. And this episode is a recording of one of my classes from last week. The course is entitled the Blood Honor and the Rules of the Mafia. And what I say to my students is that you cannot fight organized crime until you know how mobsters think, how they govern themselves, and how their rules work. Today, we Have a special guest, Michael Francis, the former Mafia capo of the Colombo crime family, who, like Thomas Bouchatta, left the mob, but unlike Bouchetta, he never turned against it. And he'll explain in this episode how the Mafia works. The rules, police and political corruption at a very high level.
- [04:00]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Michael, thank you so much for coming back to my class. It's such an honor and such an
- [04:05]
Declan Hill
education for people to hear your story.
- [04:08]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind starting with just explaining a little bit about who you are, your background, and how you became involved with the mob and the Colombo crime family.
- [04:20]
Michael Francis
Well, I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, and my dad was the underboss of the Colombo family, one of the five New York, La Cosa Nostra Mafia families and very powerful position. And my dad was extremely high profile. He was kind of like the John Gotti of his day as far as media attention, law enforcement, investigations, constantly under investigation, surveillance. He was indicted three times in the state of New York for some very serious crimes when I was a kid growing up, you know, twice for grand larceny, once for murder. He was acquitted in all three cases. And then he was indicted in Federal Court in 1966 for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. He was convicted and in 1967, sentenced to 50 years in prison. Declan was the longest sentence for a bank robbery conspiracy case ever given up to that point. And, you know, we went through all of this. I mean, I had law enforcement around me all the time. I grew up actually hating law enforcement because, you know, I love my dad and I saw them as, you know, the enemy harassing our family all the time. And my dad didn't want me in this life. He wanted me to go to school, be a doctor, actually. And I was. I was a pre med student at Hofstra University when my dad started his 50 year sentence in 1970. And at the same time, Joe Colombo was the boss of the family. I was very close with him and his family. He kind of, you know, I started to hang out with him. He took me under his wing. I started to meet a lot of my dad's friends. You know, Mike, what are you doing going to school? If you don't help your father out, he's going to die in prison. And Declan, you know, I always say this. My father obviously, you know, was very high profile. He did a lot of bad things in his life. But that particular crime that he was sentenced to 50 years on, he was innocent of. My dad was no bank robber. And he was framed in that case. And I'll take that to my grave. And, you know, I went to jail for a crime I was guilty of. I pled guilty, did my time, but he was framed. So I was very motivated to try to help him get out of prison. And I visited him with Leavenworth Prison one day, and I told him, dad, I'm not going to school anymore. If I don't help you out, you're going to die in here. We had a discussion. He was against it, but then he gave in because he knew my mind was made up. And he said, okay, son, but if you're going to be on the street, I want you on the street. The right way, in his mind, the right way is to become a member of his life. So he proposed me for membership at that point in time, because, you know, Declan, you can't just go up to somebody and say, hey, I'd like to join. Somebody has to propose you and vouch for you. And in my case, it was my dad. So for two or three years, I was in a recruit period where I had to prove myself worthy of do anything I was told to do in that regard. And then on Halloween night here in the States, 1975, with five other gentlemen, I went into a room and took a blood oath and became a sworn made member of the family. And when I came into the life, I was motivated to do two things. One, I wanted to get my dad out of prison. I did get him out after 10 years on parole. Unfortunately, he kept going back on parole violations. He went back five times, and as a result, he did 40 years on that 50. He did almost the whole sentence. And during that time, I was fortunate. I knew how to use that life to benefit me in business. I was very aggressive. I brought some new things into the family. I got involved in a big scam that I created to defraud the government out of tax on every gallon of gasoline. It was a very lucrative business we were involved in. We were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month, taken down 30 to 40 cents a gallon. We were bringing in eight, $10 million a week. So I became a major target of law enforcement. I had, I think, 18 arrests. I was indicted seven times. I had two federal racketeering cases. I went to trial five times. I was acquitted, each time on trial. And that was it. They made me a captain, a couple regime in 1980, because I was, you know, in their eyes, doing a good job for the family. And then, very long story short, among many things I was doing in 84, I was, I was producing movies. I had a product company. I met a young woman that's now my wife of 38 years. And as a result of my meeting her, I decided to try to walk away from that life. To do that, I accepted a 10 year prison sentence on this whole gas racketeering scam. I had a $15 million restitution. I had 5 million in forfeitures. I had a jet plane and a helicopter at that time. I forfeited my assets. I married this girl, and I ended up doing eight years out of the 10 in prison. I had a lot of trouble when I walked away because everybody thought I was going to become an informant. That wasn't my idea. But people thought that because you don't just walk away from that life. I mean, nobody does that without cooperating and entering the Witness Protection program, which I never did. So really, that's it. And I did my eight years in prison came out and for a series of circumstances I still can't explain, I became a speaker. I'm writing books and I'm doing a whole bunch of other things that they're now making a television series about my life. And, and life goes on. So that's the, that's the long and short of it.
- [09:28]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
I love to, to get in this. The question that everybody asked, I was tweeting about, about to meet you again today, and somebody said, how did he get out of the mob? Like, how did you. I mean, you're one of the very, very, very few people in the entire universe that's got from being such a high level mobster to being safe and working on Hollywood movies. How did you get out?
- [09:51]
Declan Hill
What was the first step that you were able to do?
- [09:53]
Michael Francis
Well, you know, people ask me that. I didn't go to Brooklyn and say, guys, I'm quitting. Had I done that, I wouldn't have walked out of the room. You know, you don't do that. But you know, Declan, one of the horrors of that life is that you make a mistake, your best friend walks you into a room and you don't walk out again. And unfortunately, in my 20 years in that life, you know, I've, I've experienced that. But what I said is, they're not going to walk me into a room. They're going to have to work to get me. So remember, I knew that life intimately. Well, I was at a high level for a long time. I basically grew up in it. And so I move across country. I moved to California I was very, very disciplined in that I changed my whole lifestyle. What did I mean by that? I didn't create patterns in my life because I know what they were going to do if they were looking for me. I didn't walk my dog every morning at 7 o'. Clock. I didn't go to the same restaurant every Tuesday night. I stayed out of nightclubs. Bad place for me. I know who hangs out there. I'm pretty well known. Some guy sees me, they want to be a hero. They make a call to New York. I go out in the parking lot, boom, I'm gone. So I was very disciplined in doing that. And then I kept sending messages back, I'm not going to hurt anybody. You know, you got other things to worry about. Because the government was cracking down, as you know, in the 80s on everybody. You know, a lot of guys turned informant. A lot of bad things were going on, and I wasn't hurting anybody. So over a period of time, two things happened. Number one, everybody I know is either dead or in prison. And number two, they had their own troubles. They didn't worry about me. So the new guys here now, you know, they're not worried about me. I mean, don't get me wrong, I can't go back to New York and go back into the neighborhood and say, hey, guys, you know, I'm moving back into the neighborhood, because I'd be thumbing my. My, you know, my face. That would be disrespectful. It would be disrespectful. So, you know, and that's how. That's the only way I can explain it. And of course, you know, you know, I'm a person of faith, so I think there's. There's been a different purpose in my life, but it's the only way I can explain it, you know, and believe me, Declan, I've had people from my former life that, you know, were. Were in there after me that are coming to me all the time. You know, how'd you do this? Can you help us out? We want to make a change. You know, it's a different, different culture here now.
- [12:10]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Did you and I. I know the answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because everybody asks me about you. Did you ever name. Did you ever turn informant and name names inside the Colombo crime family?
- [12:24]
Michael Francis
No. What I did is I testified in front of the Senate about organized crimes, infiltration into boxing. But, you know, what I did was very strategic, because I know these Senate hearings, they're nothing but show nobody gets indicted. Nobody gets arrested. And the names that I mentioned, along with myself, they were already in jail doing life. So it wasn't that it was hurting anybody. And I had let my people know that I was going in front of the Senate. Whatever I did, I let people know it. And I said, nothing that I ever do is going to amount to anybody going to jail. And my reason for that, Declan, I was just trying to make the government really know that I was out of the life. And they knew that if I went in front of the Senate, that I couldn't go back to that life. And I wanted them to leave me alone because I was so high profile, they weren't going to let me just do eight years and get away with it. I mean, they still believe I have a couple hundred million dollars buried someplace. So everything I did was strategic but always designed never to hurt anybody or put anybody in prison. And I never did. Never did.
- [13:32]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Let's unpack a little bit. Your life in the mob. We were talking off microphone just before the start of the interview. I'm running a course here at the University of New Haven called the Code Blood, Honor and the Rules of the Mafia. And I'm teaching the students, most of whom want to be law enforcement officials at some point in their life, and saying, look, you're not able to beat transnational organized crime unless you know how they think, unless you know how they work. And there's a similarity between the Sonola drug cartel and the Yakuza and the Rose cone and the pirates of, you know, the Caribbean, There's a certain code that's always there. Talk us through that a little bit. What is the number one rule in la Cosa Nostra in the Colombo crime family?
- [14:20]
Michael Francis
Well, you know, there's a misunderstanding of what the oath is that we take the night that we're made. And obviously, it's called the Oath of Omerta, and omerta means silence, meaning that it's not an oath to lie, steal, cheat, and kill. That's not what you're agreeing to do. You're agreeing to never, ever, ever even admit the existence of Cosa Nostradamus. You never admit that a person is made in that life. You're supposed to have complete silence. And if that rule was kept, Cosa Nostra would be a lot stronger than what happened to it, as we know, because so many guys, I mean, I violated the oath. Obviously, I'm speaking about the life all the time. But you know those guys that became informants and went into witness protection and testified in Trials, it was all breaking the oath of Omerta. And that's the number one rule of that life. Silence. Don't ever admit its existence. Don't ever admit anybody else is part of that life. Don't ever admit that you're part of that life. That's the number one rule in that life.
- [15:27]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
I've got a very close friend, Antonio Nicazo, who's the world's expert on the Ndranghata, comes from Reggio Calabria, written 30 bestselling books. And he was telling me real power comes from omerta because it's power that everyone knows exists, but nobody dares talk about.
- [15:47]
Michael Francis
That's exactly right. It's exactly right. And look, I recently was doing some study on some of my associates over in Italy, and very few of them, compared to the United States, have broken the oath. And that's why it's still pretty strong. And grata's very strong, you know, especially in places like Australia, you know, it's very tight knit, very strong. And also in Italy, I mean, they've done a lot of work, you know, against the Mafia in Italy, but it's still very strong and they still have a lot of control. Less here in the United States. Now, what were you, Go back to
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Class Moderator / Interviewer
Halloween, 1975, you're in that room with the other guys. What are your feelings as you're being initiated into
- [16:34]
Declan Hill
this life?
- [16:35]
Michael Francis
Well, it was very exhilarating. You know, you got to understand, we have a very idealistic view of the life. Like I said, I didn't come into the life to murder and kill and steal. I came into the life, number one, to get my father out of prison. And number two, because I thought it would benefit me business wise. Because if you know how to use that life, it could be a great benefit in business. You got to know how to use it. And you know, it's not always by strong arming people, because your presence, okay, means a lot to people. A lot of people want to be around you, you know, and so I want to continue on that. But, you know, that night I felt, you know, this is the greatest thing in my life when I came into the life, hey, this is a brotherhood. Wherever you go in the world, you're going to have somebody that's going to have your back. Don't ever worry about your mother, your sister, your daughter, your wife. We will always have her covered. It's family. So, you know, there's nothing more powerful than that kind of bond and brotherhood among men. And I had that very idealistic view of it, and, you know, we're bound by blood. And so it meant a lot to me. But, you know, in the business end of it, a lot of people think that mob guys sit in their social clubs and we start to think about all the businesses that we want to infiltrate. Not true. Most of the time, somebody from a business who wants to defraud their company, they come to us because, hey, we can finance them, we can protect them. We'll never tell on them. They come with the scheme. That's how I got into the gas business. That's how I was able to defraud some major insurance companies. They all came from me. It comes from the inside out. So if you know how to use that without turning those people off or scaring them or extorting them, you can do well, because the aura of that life gives you something.
- [18:22]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Michael. I once did an interview with a woman who married into the mob in the Hamilton, Ontario mob, one of the branches of the Bonanno crime family up there. And she said, you know, before I got. Before I married this guy, I thought it was going to be like the Godfather. And then I met these guys and I realized they're just a bunch of goat herders. They wore nice clothes, but they're just a bunch of goat herders. So are most members of the mob goat herders? Stupid goofs, if you excuse that language. Stupid goofs, or are they men of honor?
- [18:58]
Michael Francis
Well, let me tell you this. In the Colombo family, during my time, we had 115 made guys. Out of the 115, 20 of us were really earnest. The other 95 were just getting by. Who's thugs, who was holding up a store, who was, you know, grabbing a load here and there, gambling at it, you know, stuff like that. So a bunch of them were in that category. But the 15 that we're talking about, the Joe Colombos, the Frank Costellos, Carlo Gambino, even Paul Castellano, they're on a whole different level. These were men of integrity and they were smart, they were business minded. They could be ruthless, don't get me wrong. But they held themselves and carried themselves in a different way to me and my father too, in that category. My father was very charismatic. You know, you wouldn't look at him as a thug. You don't want to cross him, but you can tell there's something about him. So listen, the mob did in America for about 100 years. We had so much control from. From the guy on the street right into the White House. You don't do that by being dumb. There was a lot that we had. We controlled the unions, we had, you know, right into the White House. I had politicians on my payroll and so did many other guys. Frank Costello, they called him the Prime Minister. He knew how to do it. You know, he had. He had people in government, he had big business. He just knew how to carry himself. So I guess what I'm saying in the minority, you have a lot of. You have guys with integrity that really built this life. Lucky Luciano, Maya Lansky. No, he wasn't Italian. Look, he was brilliant. Even Bugsy Siegel for a while.
- [20:34]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
You know, maybe not integrity in how the street, you know, how I would use the word integrity, but men of intelligence, men of these. I want to return to the rules. So the first rule is omerta. Throw some more rules at us. Like, what are the other rules that govern this world?
- [20:54]
Michael Francis
Well, among us, you could never raise your hand to another made guy, no matter what, you know, wrong, right, or anything. You raise your hand to another mid guy, made guy, you're in trouble, probably cost you your life. You can never call another made guy a liar. You could be sitting down at the table and you know that he's lying through his teeth in a business dispute, you can't call him a liar. If you do, you automatically lose the argument. So it's about respect in that regard. You know, you got to be honest in business with one another.
- [21:24]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
If you're caught inside that 115 guys of the Colombo crime family, but outside, you can do what you want.
- [21:31]
Michael Francis
Outside you can do what you want. But to a point, you know, like, I get this blowback all the time because everybody says, michael, it's not true. During my era, we were not allowed to deal with drugs in any way, shape or form. The night I got made, I was told straight out, you deal with drugs, you die. Now that's not to say that some guys weren't doing it on the side, but I try to get the point across you, you weren't allowed to do it. And if you were caught doing it, there are serious consequences. But guys, you know, these are street guys, they're going to earn a living here and there. They're going to do it, they're going to try to hide it from their boss to the capital regime. But guys were doing it, but we weren't allowed. So drugs were strictly off limits during that time.
- [22:11]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
And why is that? Is that because if you start taking drugs, you become a weak person, or is it something else?
- [22:17]
Michael Francis
It's both. You weren't allowed to look, you weren't. If you were on drugs and you did something wrong, it was no excuse. The same way if you were drunk and you got in trouble and you did something wrong, being drunk is not an excuse. It's actually, it'll put you in more trouble because you weren't supposed to carry yourself that way, but also because it brought a lot of heat. And that was the same. Brought a lot of heat. They said, look, we can get by, you know, doing gambling and numbers on the street and maybe extorting some people, but if we get into the drug business and kids get involved and that's going to be a lot of heat and we don't want it.
- [22:53]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Again, to return to my students here, many of them want to be law enforcement officials. They're going to be fighting against various forms of transnational organized crime. What is the number one thing they should know?
- [23:06]
Michael Francis
Well, know that these guys are pretty sharp. You know, don't ever, don't ever treat them lightly and don't ever. Look, look, you know, we, we had so many law enforcement people that we were able to get to, especially in New York, because remember in New York, and this can apply internationally, we had 750 maid guys, guys that actually took the oath that comprised all five families. Many of us had a relative in law enforcement, had a neighbor in law enforcement, had a friend that we met. So we had a lot of law enforcement people that were doing our bidding and we made it very attractive to them. I mean, there was a police station In Brooklyn that 2 o' clock in the morning, I can go up there, open their file cabinet and see everything I want to see. Of course, he was on my payroll. I was taking care of him. So the number one thing is watch out when they're trying to get close to you, because once they got close to you, once we got that guy, that's it. He can never, never hurt us again because we're going to expose him in some way. So. And you know, guys are very smart. Don't look at them as dummies and think that they don't know what they're doing. The guys that build these hundred million dollar empires on the street, whether it be drugs or anything else, these are not dumb guys. They're smart, so don't sell them short.
- [24:25]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
I'm going to change tack here a little bit. What is life like for the women of mobsters? I mean, the mothers, the daughters, the wives paint that picture for us.
- [24:40]
Michael Francis
Well, look, at the end of the day, especially from the mid-80s on when here in America, when the racketeering laws really wreaked havoc and the government really declared war on our life, it was hell for the family. I always say the mob life is pretty much an evil lifestyle because I don't know any family of any member of that life that hasn't been devastated, including my own. Now, not my wife and kids, because I spared them for that, but my mother. 33 years without a husband when she passed away in 2012. Declan. I can only describe her relationship with my dad as ugly because she blamed him for everything that went wrong. What went wrong? I had a sister, died of an overdose of drugs. Brother drug addict, 25 years. Eventually cooperated with the government and testified against my father. His own father put my dad back in jail on a violation in another case. I had another sister, 40 years old. She wasn't right in the head. She passed away early, you know, smoked just bad. And every family I know of, every member that life, same thing. Now, I'm very close with. I don't want to say very close, but I'm in close contact with Victoria Gotti, John's John senior wife. And you know what that poor woman has gone through for all of these years. And it's true of every family, every wife, every child that I know in some way, shape or form. I have another kid, Billy Cotolla. I can mention his name. I'll be interviewing him. His father was. During my era, he was a captain along with me. Well, they killed him and this kid went nuts. He went crazy, you know, he became an informant, he took revenge on the guys, and now he's kind of a basket case. You know, I try to counsel him as best I could, but these are the norm. They're not the exception. This is what happens. Because it's just that it's a crazy lifestyle. It's not.
- [26:35]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
They're like the kind of moral punching bag. They get the punches that are designed for the mobsters.
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Michael Francis
Is it Exactly. No, you said it right. Exactly.
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Class Moderator / Interviewer
You talked about having people in the White House. You talked about politicians on the payroll. Who is the highest guy you had either in the Overworld, just generally, or a politician?
- [27:01]
Michael Francis
I had. It was only me. It was our family. Two gentlemen in particular. One was my first copper regime. And then I got introduced to him, but he was the Democratic leader of New York and he was extremely powerful guy. He was the guy that got me my licenses when I had to become a wholesaler in the gas business. You needed to have licenses? Well, we really couldn't get them, but he got me 18 of them and again, on the payroll. Look, what do politicians want? They want votes and they want money. Two things. So on the street, they're fundraisers. We help them as much as we possibly can. We had the Teamsters Union, we had the Laborers Union, we had all the unions. And we. We made sure that they all voted the way we told them to vote. You know, all the. All the members. So that's why they come to us. And then, of course, you know, and look, they don't hang around with every Tom, Dick and Harry. These politicians, a lot of them are smart. They know who to get close to. It's like I said, they'll get close to a Joe Colombo. They're not going to get close to a guy that's hanging out, you know, on a street corner every day. So. But he was. He was, you know, very hooked in. Right into the White House.
- [28:18]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Which White House? Are you talking a president, or are you talking one of the President's aides or one of their lawyers or somebody hanging around them?
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Michael Francis
Yeah, I mean, look, I never needed anything from Washington. So it wasn't that, you know, I was. My relationship with him, covered everything that I needed. But when I say right into the White House, I mean he was a member of. You know, he was one of the highest members in Congress. So he was the Democratic leader of New York. So, you know, can you give us
- [28:45]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
his name now, or is this something that still has to remain hidden?
- [28:49]
Michael Francis
Well, he's gone. He's dead. But his name was Mead Esposito. I mean, I think I've mentioned him before.
- [28:55]
Tom Mangine
Right.
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Class Moderator / Interviewer
How is La Cosa Nostra now?
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Declan Hill
Is it dead in America?
- [29:00]
Michael Francis
It's not dead. I don't think you're going to see it go away in my lifetime, but it's certainly not what it was before. You know, they've gotten smart. Because, Declan, I'm still. I'm out in California. I read the New York Post every day during my time. New York Post, Daily News. Two days didn't go by when there wasn't a story about my life, not even two days. It was always in the news. Now, maybe every six months, I see one story and it's not front page like it used to be with Gotti and all of us guys back then. You know, they've gone undercover. They're smart, but they're not going away.
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Class Moderator / Interviewer
What is the most dangerous transnational organized crime group in America? Is it the Mexicans? The Sonola? The zetas? Latin Kings, Ms. 13. Or is it still you guys?
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Michael Francis
Well, I would say, you know, the more sophisticated would be us, but, you know, dangerous. These MS.13 guys, they're just crazy. They have no value of human life whatsoever. You know, but honestly, fortunately, I'm not that up on it now. And you don't hear a lot about it. You hear a lot of ms.13 busts. You know, they're really cracking down on them, rightfully so. But I don't hear much about the Russian mob. I don't hear much about any of that right now. What's going on in the United States is all street crime. I don't know if you're following what's going on here. This country's going crazy. I'm telling you. You know, Declan, you can go into a store now and steal under $1,000 and walk right out the door. I mean, street crime is going through the roof. In some places. It's up 200%. That's the real problem.
- [30:36]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Now, I wanted to flip that right over because people ask me about your. The guys now from LCN and these other organized crime groups. And I said, yeah, they're still around. But really what has happened is that some mainstream Fortune 500 companies have really started organizing themselves like organized crime. And so you see things like the opioid epidemic. You see, you know, things like that. What's your take on that?
- [31:06]
Michael Francis
You know, I. I don't know if you know, but I just wrote a book, Mafia Democracy. I don't know if you've seen that. And, Declan, I. I've never at no time in my life have I ever witnessed what's going on in this country, how, you know, not only in corporate America, but our government, how mob life, it's behaving. What's going on on our southern border? I mean, I spoke recently to eight hundred and fifty border patrol agents from the state of Texas. I was a keynote speaker at a big seminar they had. And then I spent, you know, a day with them, and I could not believe what they were telling me. They said, michael, we're not even. Oh, yeah, we're not even getting 10% of the illicit drugs that are coming across the country. The gotaways that we talk about, the, you know, immigrants. He said, those are the ones we see. Forget the ones that we don't see. He said, there's millions of people coming over this border. We don't know if they're terrorists. We don't know if they got Covid. We don't know anything. He said, we can't control it. The federal government isn't giving us any help. And, you know, it's such the biggest epidemic we got in this country now is opioids. I mean, they killed 100,000 people last year. Yeah, it's not stopping. So, you know, when you look at this, I mean, on a. On a national level, that puts us to shame. I mean, we were nothing compared to what's going on there. I can go on and on and on, but, yeah, no, I mean, your
- [32:31]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
point about the 100,000. I'm like, guys, the mob has never killed 100,000 people in one year, and yet this was something that came from pharmaceutical companies that manufactured and marketed. It's not entirely them now, but it certainly was the initiation of that. Michael, I really have been stressing from the beginning to my students here at the University of New Haven that if they want to learn about organized crime, they've got to get out of the university. They've got to get out of talking to a bookworm like me. So if you don't mind, I'm going to bring them up here, I'm going to gather them around, and I'm going to ask them to just take over and start asking you questions. If that's okay with you.
- [33:12]
Michael Francis
That's right.
- [33:12]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Okay, this is Declan.
- [33:14]
Declan Hill
Look, I'm just taking a quick break to ask you, the listeners, if you're enjoying this episode, to please, like, review rate or subscribe to the podcast. And if there's something you'd like to comment on or review, please let us know.
- [33:26]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
We really want to hear from you.
- [33:28]
Declan Hill
I also would like to take a moment to thank all the students who are involved in this podcast, particularly the brilliant Ryan Decker, who is the producer. And in this next section, the students in my class ask questions directly of Francis. It was, for me, actually, the most interesting section with some extraordinary responses from the former capo to the students. Hope you enjoy it.
- [33:55]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Hi. Very nice to meet you.
- [33:57]
Michael Francis
Same here.
- [33:58]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
I have a question. So I know you were talking about shows that are being made currently about you, about other things within the mob, and I'm just wondering what you think about television shows that are showing the life of made men, especially those that might not be giving all the credit or asking made men for advice, should they be made at all? What's your take on that?
- [34:22]
Michael Francis
Well, you're never going to stop making them, because people have a fascination with crime in general. And, you know, Anna, I never realized while I was in the life, I never realized how intriguing the life is to People outside of the life. I mean, I've been all over the world, from Singapore to Australia to Bulgaria, you know, you name it, I've been speaking there. And I'm fascinated by people's knowledge of that life. How intriguing it is everybody knows John Gotti. Everybody asked where Jimmy Hoffa was buried. Everybody ask all these questions, and I'm saying, how do these people even know this? So that fascination doesn't seem to be going away. I mean, I'm still, you know, a speaker in pretty high demand, and it's because of my background. That's what intrigues them. That's what gets them in the door. So do I believe that they should be made? Listen, I have to be honest with you. I mean, I'm a fan of the Godfather. I think, aside from everything else, is a brilliant movie, even though it was fictional, you know? You know, so they're never going to stop making them. I don't like when I see ones that are made cheesy and there's so much misinformation in them that people take away as being factual and truthful. But you're not going to slow Hollywood down. You're not going to stop them from doing that. So, you know, the series that they're making now in my life, I told them, I said, look, authenticity means a lot to me. I understand that you take dramatic liberty at times, but it can't be so inauthentic that I can't watch it. So I'm kind of safeguarding that with them. But it's going to continue. You have to be ready for it. And if you ever want to know which ones I recommend and ones I point out, I'll let you know.
- [36:00]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
All right. Thank you so much.
- [36:01]
Michael Francis
You're welcome.
- [36:03]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
This is Angelo. Angelo is with the forensic science guys here, and he's going to be doing a presentation which I think much of the university is interested in, on the tattoos of organized crime and how to identify those guys.
- [36:16]
Michael Francis
Angelo. All right. Very nice to meet you. My pleasure. So, like Declan said, I am doing some research on tattoos and sort of their symbolism.
- [36:26]
Tom Mangine
So.
- [36:27]
Michael Francis
So I just wanted to ask, is that something that you participated in in the Colombo family? Were there any tattoos or brands or sort of other symbolisms that, like, were important to the family? No, as a matter of fact, we were mainly against tattoos. Now, a lot of guys had them, but they didn't have them as part of the life. They just had them, you know, for whatever. Some were in the military, some got them before they got involved. We were against tattoos. My father never had one and I didn't have one when I was in the life because it's, it's another way to identify you. If you got arrested with the police so they didn't want you. They said it was, it was kind of dangerous. So we didn't have them. You know, I know other organizations like Yakuza and some of them, they do have tattoos and they have to be branded actually to be in that life. And of course the teardrop and things like that, which to me is silly because you're identifying yourself as a, a mobster or a member of a gang, you know, you don't want to do that. But you know, they have it like as a badge of honor, a badge of courage. So we were against it. I mean, I have tattoos now, but I got them after I left the life. Well, I had one when I was in prison. Some guy owed me money. I lent the money. And when you lend money in prison, you don't ever expect to get it back. So I lent him money just so he wouldn't bother me anymore because, you know, he kept coming around, but he kept wanting to pay me back, but he didn't have any money. So he said, please, I'm a tattoo artist, let me give you a tattoo. So I got the tattoo, my wife's name and a heart, just so he would leave me alone and not tell me he had a boss, you know, pay me back anymore. But that was it. Now I have a couple of tattoos, my kids have tattoos. Everybody's tattoo crazy here in America. All right, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you.
- [38:09]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Angela Melania is another my brilliant student. She's working on the Black Axe mafia of Nigeria.
- [38:19]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
It's lovely to meet you.
- [38:21]
Michael Francis
Pleasure.
- [38:22]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
So you described that you had a two year recruitment process before you were initiated to the gang. I wanted to know how was that like and what was the experience that you went through during that recruitment time?
- [38:36]
Michael Francis
Well, I had to do anything and everything I was told to do, you know, to prove myself worthy. You couldn't question anything. It had to be done. And at times it was very menial, you know, drive the boss to a meeting. I always had a nice car because I was in that business. So the boss and the underboss would, they'd have me drive them. Except that they would drive and I would sit in the backseat, but it was my car. But you know, there was times when they would be into a meeting for two, three, four hours and I had to wait for them outside. In the car. And it was one time when I left the car to go to the restroom and get a newspaper, and they came out and I wasn't in the car. And, boy, they. They gave me hell. Hey, what if we had a shootout now? We had to leave right away. We come out, you're not there, and they gave me hell. And I. I kind of paid the price for it. So there's a lot of stuff like that, you know, in that life. If you had a meeting at 8 o' clock and you weren't there at 7:30, you were late. You can never be late. No excuses, no nothing. So, you know, little things like that. And then, of course, I want to be very honest with you. You know, we weren't choir boys. And sometimes that life is very violent. And no matter who you are, if you're part of that life, you're part of the violence. And if you're given an order to do something, you have to do it, and you got to prove yourself worthy. So, you know, did I enjoy that period? No. Because I had to wear a suit every day, go in sometimes just sit in a social club for three, four, five hours. You know, you had to just do whatever you were told to do every weekend. Go to a wedding, you know, go to a funeral. You had to be around, you had to be seen. So it was. It was tough. And it was about two and a half years for me until it finally, one night. And they don't prepare you, you know, because it's a secret ceremony, so they don't want anybody to know it because they don't want the law enforcement to come in and see what you're doing. So just one night, you know, it just happened that night. They said, well, you're not going home tonight. We got something to do. And that's when I got walked into that room. It was late at night, so that was it.
- [40:41]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Thank you so much.
- [40:42]
Michael Francis
You're welcome.
- [40:43]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you for doing this, Mike. I really appreciate this. This is Jelani, who's doing some work on the East Coast, west coast, murders and stuff.
- [40:53]
Declan Hill
Jelani.
- [40:54]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Michael Francis.
- [40:55]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Hi. Very nice to meet you. I know you were talking about how, like, your wife and your kids were affected by the mob and every. Would you say that love is probably the mob's biggest enemy?
- [41:07]
Michael Francis
You know, it's very, very interesting. I have a different feeling on that. Do you know who Chazz Palminteri is?
- [41:15]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
I do not, unfortunately.
- [41:16]
Michael Francis
Okay, well, if you see the movie the Bronx Tale, he wrote it, directed it. Yeah. And he played Sonny, he was the mobster.
- [41:22]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Yeah.
- [41:23]
Michael Francis
Well, in that. He's a very good friend of mine. In that movie, his. Somebody asked him, the kid asked him, is it better to be loved or to be hated in that life? No, I'm sorry. Is it better to be loved or to be feared in that life? And he said, it's better to be feared. And he gave his explanation. But I disagree with that. It's better to be loved in that life. Because I'll tell you why. The reason for the downfall of my former life was because you were kept in line because of fear at times, that if you made a mistake or you became an informant, there would be consequences. So that did keep you in line. But what happened in America is when they started with the racketeering laws and the Bail Reform act and the Sentencing Reform act, the fear of the mob was transferred to the fear of the government because the government said, hey, okay, we're going to lock you up forever. You're going to get no bail. You'll never see your family again. You're going to die in jail. But if you cooperate with us, well, you know, we'll take care of you. We'll put you in a program, we'll give you some money. So. So what happened is they became more fearful of the government and they became informants. And a lot of guys turned in my life. But look, when you love somebody, you're not going to hurt them. So that love would be more of a binding. But how do you get 750 guys to love each other? It's never going to happen, you know, but there's people like. And I would never in a million years turn on my father. They could have put me away forever, you know, but if I didn't like my father and I was just afraid of him, well, hey, I'm not going to go to jail for him. So that's the difference. So, you know, love is the strongest bond that you can have to protect somebody.
- [43:09]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Thank you so much.
- [43:11]
Michael Francis
You're welcome.
- [43:11]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you. The next person of my students up here is Jihad. Jihad is working his way through Ramadan. So the poor fellow hasn't eaten for 12 hours. I'm just counting the minutes for him. He and I are working together on a doctorate on police corruption. Michael Francis Jihy.
- [43:33]
Michael Francis
Hi, Michael. Pleasure meeting you. So, yeah, appreciate it. So just a quick question. So I wonder, like, what is the. How wide separate police corruption between the mob? Maybe I would say back in days and maybe recent times in America. Well, listen, going back to the days of Al Capone back into the 20s, there was rampant police corruption. A lot of, you know, police officers on the payroll, you know, and that. That persisted right through my time in that life. And it happens, you know, I'll tell you one thing, though, that I was unable to do so. It is widespread is what I want to tell you. Police corruption among the mob was very widespread. But when my dad went to prison, I would have paid anything to get him out. Any kind of bribe. I was fortunate. I had plenty of money. I offered $2 million and I couldn't get somebody to do it. So at a high level, I couldn't get anybody to do it back then. And it wasn't easy. I mean, it wasn't. You just spring him out. You know, there was certain steps that had to be taken. So I guess my answer is police corruption was wide, but not so much on a very, very high level. Now, political corruption, a little bit different at times. Like I said, I had the Democratic leader in New York, but even him, he didn't have enough weight to get my father out of prison. So it all depends. But don't ever discount it. But I'm going to tell you this, and this is a little bit off subject, but I don't believe that law enforcement ever has the right to break the law, to catch the lawbreakers. Because if you give law enforcement and government the authority to break their own laws, anytime they want to catch somebody that they think is breaking the law, you're going to have rampant corruption. And that's when any kind of democracy is going to go out the window. They must abide by the law. And let me tell you something, they have enough tools, enough weapons, they have enough law on their side to get the law breaker honestly, give them enough time, they're going to get. You guys on the street are going to make a mistake. And I hope you keep all of you that are looking to become part of government or law enforcement that you always keep that principle. Because many of the straight law enforcement people that I know now said that they would never break the law to catch a lawbreaker. Either they get them honestly through all the weapons that they have in their arsenal, or they're not going to get them at all. And I really respect that. And I hope that all of you abide by that principle if you ever take that oath.
- [46:17]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Awesome.
- [46:18]
Michael Francis
Thank you. Appreciate it.
- [46:19]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you. None of my stars. This is Anna, Michael Francis.
- [46:25]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Hello. Nice to meet you. My question is about your brother. You talked a little bit about him, but as someone who Followed another family member and your father into the life. How did you feel when he, you know, testified against your father and, you know, effectively kind of sent him back to prison as well.
- [46:48]
Michael Francis
It was devastating. I mean, I'll never forget when I found out that he went into the witness protection program. And then I had found out. What we learned is that on a previous violation that my father had, it was my brother that had got him violated. And they kept that. The government kept that under wraps. So we didn't know about it until my brother testified in the trial and all this information came out. It was devastating. It was like a surreal experience when I watched him up there. And I have to say this, you know, and please understand now. I love my brother. We've since. I didn't see him for 10 years, but we've since patched it up. I kind of understand what happened to him, even though I don't sanction what he did. I don't think there was a reason to do that, but I kind of understand. He grew up, you know, in so much turmoil in our household, Turned to drugs and all of that, but. But even understand, even my brother, I. I have never, ever. I've been through five trials. So many of my dad's trials, and so many friends of mine during that time. I've never seen a government foreman get up on the witness stand, left hand on a Bible, right hand to tell the truth, and then lie through his teeth. Even my brother, I was sitting there and I said, I don't believe this. Some of the things that he was attributing to my dad actually happened between me and him and to the point where I wanted to testify on my dad's behalf, and his lawyer said no, and my dad listened to him. I think my dad was afraid that I might have put myself in trouble. I don't know what he was thinking, but it's such a. When people want to save themselves, they'll go to great extent not to go to prison. Trust me on that. So you always got to be leery of informants. Unfortunately, here in the United States, if the informant is lying but still helping the government, the government's okay with that. They don't care. They're not looking for the truth. They're looking for convictions. So. But how do I feel? You know, it was devastating to see my brother do that. But, you know, we had a very long talk afterwards, only about two years ago, when I first reunited with him, and I said, what the heck, man? You know, what made you do that? And his explanation was something I kind of understood. He kind of had it in for my dad a little bit for some of the things that happened. He was bitter. Again, I'm not saying it was an excuse, but I kind of understand. And so, you know, but it's my brother. I love him. And, you know, I reintroduced him to my family here. My two boys kind of took it hard because, you know, they were close with him, and then all of a sudden he was out of their life and they didn't like what he did, so. And again, it's so disruptive to family life. Every. Every facet of this is just. That's why I always counsel these young gang bangers when I go into prisons and juvenile halls. Get away from the life. It's nothing but destruction for you and the people that you love.
- [49:50]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Thank you.
- [49:51]
Michael Francis
You're welcome.
- [49:52]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you, Anna. Liam Morsini again, one of my star students, Michael Francis.
- [49:58]
Michael Francis
Hi, Michael.
- [49:59]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you for coming and speaking with us today. I came in with a lot of questions, and you actually answered a lot of them. But I wanted to ask, you mentioned you had associates in Italy, and I was wondering how much of a relationship the family had with organizations in Italy or in other parts of the globe.
- [50:17]
Michael Francis
Well, we had relationships in Italy, of course, a lot of Sicilian guys did. You probably remember the pizza connection case here in the United States was a big case, mostly all Sicilians involved. Very few of us were involved with that because, again, we. We were not dealing drugs. But, you know, they're two separate organizations, and the Mafia in Italy does things a little bit differently than we do here in the United States. So we were. We were respectful to them, we were courteous to them, but we didn't share all our secrets with them. We were told not to. So, again, relationships, we helped one another out, but we didn't do a lot of business with one another. And that's why you see, you don't see many indictments that include United States and mafia in Italy. You know, you don't see that at all because we didn't work together in business that often. And if we did, it was limited.
- [51:11]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you.
- [51:12]
Michael Francis
You are. Thank you again.
- [51:15]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
One of my star students. Michael, this is Sarah Middleton, who speaks fluent Russian and is working on a presentation on Boris Icon, Russian Mafia.
- [51:22]
Michael Francis
Sara.
- [51:22]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Michael Francis.
- [51:24]
Michael Francis
Hi. Nice to meet you. Pleasure.
- [51:27]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
So I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about the brotherhood between members. And when you left, did it feel like you were walking away from your family?
- [51:37]
Michael Francis
Essentially, you know, I'll tell you what happened When I left, it was excruciating, because, yes, I felt like I was betraying my oath, betraying my friends, you know, and it became very significant to me because in 1991, our family was going to war. The Colombo family, we had a warring family. We always had a lot of stuff going on. And I had walked away, and it became public, but my dad had gotten out on parole again, and he called me. I was out in California, he was in New York, and he said, michael, you got to stop what you're doing and get back to New York. The family's going to war. And there were two factions. Vicarino was on one side, and Persico, who was my boss, on the other side. And I had a big crew. And he said, you got to get back here and get your people together. We're going to war. Seriously. And I had such. I was on parole. I had such a tremendous pull on me. I couldn't sleep. I felt like, how could I betray my guys? I felt like a coward. How could I not go back there? And I would go to sleep at night, not going back, wake up in the morning, going back. So I was actually trying to figure out how to get away from where I was. I was going to break my parole and go back. And what happens? I walk out of a Bank, and there's 15 agents waiting for me. They violated me on my parole, and I went back to prison for three years. And it was those three years that the war went on. And during that time, 13 of my former associates were killed, 63 went to jail, and 18 became informants. And I was in jail, and they kept me in lockdown. During that time, I was in solitary. But the point is, it was during that time that I got over it. But I felt horrible for years because, you know, that oath really means something. I mean, this was. When you're in that life, you got to be in it all the way, body, mind, and soul. You don't survive, it becomes part of you, becomes part of your thinking. Your whole way of life is different. So. And then I felt like I was betraying my dad, you know, who I loved. So it was very, very difficult. And if it wasn't for my wife and my faith and, you know, this transformation, that took time, you know, for me mentally and emotionally to go under, I don't know if I would have dealt with it that well. But, you know, fortunately, I'm over it now. But it took a while. Took a while. And I will tell you this, though. If you're studying The Russian mob. I had three Russian partners and you know, the Russian mob, they weren't as organized as we were. The guy that was extended himself power wise and had the most money, he was kind of the boss. And I had three Russian partners in the gas business. They were the best partners I ever had on the street. The best. We made a ton of money together. We were together for seven or eight years and we got along extremely well, you know, both as business partners and as friends. And unfortunately, I'll just tell you this, when I left and I told them I met with the three of them, Markowitz, Bogatin and Persic were their names, last names. And I said, look, let me tell you how this works. You're going to have to answer to somebody else now. They're going to be your partner, somebody in my crew. And they said, no, Mr. Michael, we only work with you. I said, it doesn't go that way. You're going to have to do it. We won't do it. Well, they wouldn't. One of them got killed. One of them. They went after and they put him in a wheelchair. They shot him a few times. He lived. And Bogatin, who was probably the best, he fled the country. He actually ended up in Poland. And then the United States extradited him from Poland to the United States. He was the first person extradited from Poland to the US since 1929. And he went and served time there. But you know what? Now he kept his mouth shut. He never fingered me. Neither did Persetz. Bogatin, I mean, Marquis didn't have a chance because they killed him. But they were great partners. If. If nothing ever happened to me, we would have. We used to tease. We would own all of New York. But anyway, I'm just reminiscing those. Those are the good old days. Good old bad days, I should say.
- [56:03]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Thank you.
- [56:04]
Michael Francis
Okay.
- [56:05]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you, Sarah. Michael, thank you for sharing this one last question from here. Emily is another star student. She's a freshman. Freshman here. Very impressed with her in her first year here. So, Emily, Michael Francis.
- [56:17]
Michael Francis
Hi. Hi.
- [56:18]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Emily, do you think it's possible to ever truly stop an organized crime group? Or will the group just keep existing in some form or another?
- [56:26]
Michael Francis
You know, I don't think it's. I don't think you're ever going to stop it here. What happens here in the United States is like what happened in the 80s. For a period of time, 7, 8, 9, 10 years, the government will be organized crime, organized crime, organized crime. When I was in that life, they had 1200 FBI agents assigned to all five families. 1200 agents, 750 made guys. Right now, there are less than 100 agents on all five families. Why? Because they move them to terrorism. Something else happens and they take it off organized crime and terrorism. But during that time, guys on the streets start to build up again. So from what I'm hearing, their presence is still pretty solid because the government isn't watching them like they did at one time before. So do I think it'll ever go away? No, I don't think so. Because of the very reason that I said. And guys on the street. There are always going to be guys on the street. They're not going anywhere else.
- [57:30]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Thank you.
- [57:30]
Michael Francis
You're welcome.
- [57:31]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Emily, thank you very much. Julian, Michael, thank you so much for sharing your time with these guys. And I'm really happy because some of those stories, some of that information and education I've never heard. You and you and I have spoken a number of times like that.
- [57:47]
Declan Hill
I'm just going to.
- [57:49]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
I know I'm a little over time. I just wanted to ask my friend and colleague Bobby McDonald's, do you have a question for Michael Franzese?
- [57:58]
Tom Mangine
I do not.
- [58:00]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Tom Mangine or Erica or Ruby. You guys are six hours away from us. Any questions? You're up, I guess, almost to midnight. Ruby, I know you were going to have a question because you're in the Philippines and stuff. I just wanted to check with Erica and Tom. Are you guys okay?
- [58:17]
Tom Mangine
I'll let Ruby speak first. I do have a question for Mr. Frank.
- [58:20]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Okay, Ruby on, please.
- [58:22]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
Hi, Tom.
- [58:23]
Michael Francis
Yeah, I'm in the EU right now.
- [58:25]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
So my question is, how deeply involved
- [58:28]
Michael Francis
is organized crime in sport, in sports? Well, as Declan knows, at one time we had, you know, significant involvement as far as the gambling end of it, where we had a lot of athletes and league personnel gambling with us, both on a professional and a college level. I don't think it's as rampant today because there's so many other ways for athletes to gamble now, specifically online. You know, the irony in all of this. We tried so hard to keep gambling out of professional and collegiate sports and now they're actually bringing it in. You know, the sports organizations are bringing it in. You know, Declan, I just. Today, actually, I dropped a video with Kevin Hallinan, who's the head of security. Yeah, it just dropped today. I interviewed him the other day, just went on this morning at 11 o'. Clock. So not as much today. Although we still have bookmakers on the street and there's still athletes from what I hear, gambling, but it's not like it was before.
- [59:34]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Okay, thank you, Salamat. Tom, I'm not sure. I'm not sure where you are. I knew you were in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago, so I'm.
- [59:44]
Tom Mangine
I'm back on. On the other side of the border. I'm in Krakow, so. Okay. Good afternoon to you, sir. This is the second time I've heard you speak, and I really appreciate your frankness in the. In all honesty. My father was an immigrant from Naples. My mother was an immigrant from Ireland. I grew up probably 40 miles south of you in northern New Jersey. And my background is military special operations in York, New intelligence. And I'm back consulting with different governments. I. You've been incredibly forthcoming, talking about some of the emotional impact on you. I wanted to say, from your personal perspective, what was one of the most sobering things that you and your colleagues would encounter? You've talked it at great length about when you're brought into the lifestyle. There's the feeling of camaraderie, commitment, and fealty to your brothers in the organization. And that moment where you have that sobering thought that, this is not what I thought. My impression is, for you is seeing the impact of this demanding lifestyle on a family member who's partly associated with it. For you, it's your mother or your.
- [60:59]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Hang on, Tom, where's the question?
- [61:01]
Tom Mangine
So the question is, what is the most sobering impact that forces somebody to reconsider their commitment to the organization?
- [61:13]
Michael Francis
Well, you know, Tom, I understand where you're going. There's some defining moments that we have in our life, you know, and when you look back, I think, you know, moments that really had an impact on you that caused you maybe to make a change or to really think. And there was a couple of things. Number one, I had a feeling of betrayal when the FBI told me that they came into the prison to tell me that my boss, Persico, had put a contract out on my life and that my father went along with it. Now, that was sobering because I tried to process what my dad would have really done. And my dad being such a stalwart in that life, I know he wouldn't have put a gun to my head, but he just said, okay, if my son is doing the wrong thing, I. The life comes first. That hurt. There was another time. There was two betrayals I received from my dad that were very sobering. And then another time, after I had taken my plea, they were transporting me, I was in custody, and all the agents that had investigated me were transporting me to Florida to take a plea in a Florida case also, right? And on the plane, it was very funny. They were all asking me, michael, now that the investigation is over and you have taken a plea, let me ask you this. When we were watching you here, did this really happen? They were asking me about their investigation, and I was teasing them. I said, you know what? The only reason I took a plea is because I beat you five times. I got tired of beating you. I just figured I'd give you a win, right? And one of the agents looked at me, I'll never forget, and he looked me straight in the eye, and he said, not this time, Michael. You became a superstar, and they were lining up your friends to put you in prison to save themselves. And he looked at me dead serious. And you know what? It struck me. It really hit me, and I said, you know what? He's right. He's right. And that was very sobering, because after these incidents with my dad and then hearing that, I'm saying, who do we trust in his life? Who do we trust? And I'm not making myself out to be an angel, don't get me wrong. But these are the things that hit me. And I said, this is not the life that I expected it to be. And it played heavy on my decision to walk away. But, you know, doing it, Tom, it was a dance. To do this without putting in people in prison and then trying to make the government believe I was a good guy. Now it was a dance that I eventually lost because, you know, they violated my parole when I refused to testify against the boss of Jersey, John Riggy. I'm sure you know that name. But at the end, I won. In the end, I won because I'm alive and free, and I. I have a life that is incredibly. That answer.
- [64:06]
Tom Mangine
I know.
- [64:07]
Students (various names: Anna, Angelo, Angela Melania, Jelani, Jihad, Sarah Middleton, Emily, Ruby)
It's.
- [64:07]
Tom Mangine
It's incredibly insightful, and I appreciate you giving me extra time to be intro into that question. So thanks so much, Declan, and sir, thanks so much for your time.
- [64:18]
Michael Francis
Tom.
- [64:18]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you. And stay safe. I don't want to ask what you're doing over there, but just stay safe for the rest of us, okay, brother?
- [64:24]
Tom Mangine
It's safe for me that it was for this gentleman I can say that with, and he's managed to learn.
- [64:30]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Michael, thank you so much. Mafia democracy.
- [64:34]
Michael Francis
Yes.
- [64:35]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
From the Godfather to God the Father. Any of your other work that I should be mentioning here, because they're both brilliant.
- [64:43]
Michael Francis
I really. You know, I wrote a business book on making an offer you can't refuse I think for students, these books would be very helpful to give them some insight, you know, to see another perspective. I was, you know, mafia democracy. Can I tell you briefly, please. You know, seven years ago, after I wrote I'll make youe An Offer you Can't refuse, my publisher wanted me to do. I had a. I had an obligation to provide them another book. And they say, we want you to do a political book. Do you have something in mind? I said, yeah. And it was this. Mafia democracy. And I went home and I wrote four chapters, and I stopped writing, and I went to my wife and I say, why am I doing this? I'm exposing the government. People are going to be upset with me. I don't have anybody coming after me right now. I changed my mind. I went back to HarperCollins, and I gave them back my advance. They gave me a big advance, and I said, I'm not writing the book. Cut to a year and a half ago. From what I see going on in this country, I said, I have an obligation to write this book because people have to be aware, and they have to hold our public officials accountable. That's the only reason I wrote the book. And it's right down the middle. I mean, this is a bipartisan book. It's not a partisan book. But I need people to be aware. And young students, I would love for them to read it and come to their own conclusions because a lot of research and everything is factual. And the satisfaction I've gotten is that so many of the comments are, Michael, now we get it. Now we see it. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. They've been 99% positive after reading the book, so I encourage them to read it just for that at all, so they can widen their perspective and then, of course, make their own conclusions. I have no. No doubt that the young people today, they're. They're bright and they make their own conclusions, but they need all the information in order to do that. So that's it, Michael.
- [66:29]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Thank you, Matthew. Democracy. I'll make sure it's on.
- [66:32]
Michael Francis
I really.
- [66:33]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
This has been a fantastic educational experience for this. Guys, Guys, can we give this man a round of applause?
- [66:38]
Michael Francis
Thank you, Declan. You keep up the good work. You're one of the guys out there that are providing the right information. So thank you. Anytime you need me, you know, I'm here.
- [66:49]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Awesome. Thank you, Michael. I'll see you soon, I hope.
- [66:51]
Michael Francis
Take care. Yes. Bye.
- [66:53]
Class Moderator / Interviewer
Bye. And to you, our listeners and supporters
- [67:06]
Declan Hill
of Crime Waves podcast, thank you for tuning in. We deeply appreciate all your comments, reviews, ratings and subscriptions, please keep them coming in. We'll see you next week for another episode of Crime Ways. We're going to be interviewing former police officer and now professor with me here at the University of New Haven, Lisa Dadio. It's on how she and her team helped crack the case of a vicious series of sexual assaults. We call the episode Solving the Unsolvable.