Breaking Up is Hard to Do (Criminal+)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Criminal+ — "Breaking Up is Hard to Do"

Host: Phoebe Judge
Co-host: Lauren Spohr
Date: May 29, 2026
Network: Vox Media Podcast Network
Episode Theme:
This episode of Criminal+ centers on Phoebe Judge’s journey into on-camera video production and her personal odyssey with makeup, leading into broader conversations about change, breaking up (with therapists), creative crime, and small but vibrant slices of daily life. The tone is candid, humorous, and intimate, with Phoebe and Lauren sharing personal stories, challenges, and observations.

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Main Theme and Purpose

Phoebe and Lauren open up about embarking on a new video series, with behind-the-scenes glimpses of preparing for camera, learning makeup, and the challenges of adapting to a new medium. This springboards into deeper conversations about personal growth, awkward transitions (especially “breaking up” with one’s therapist), and the connective power of shared routines and interests—set against the backdrop of their trademark wry humor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Going Video: Makeup Journeys and Vulnerability

Timestamps: 00:45–11:30

• Phoebe reveals the new video format for Criminal+, plans for YouTube, and the daunting experience of getting her home studio camera-ready.
• Lauren helps Phoebe with a Sephora shopping trip, recommending "simple and fast" products—green concealer, translucent powder, mascara, brown eyeliner, blush stick, etc.
  • Lauren on approach: "I like to keep it simple and fast. You can do it in the car if you need to. So I thought, Phoebe probably wants it to be simple if she's going to do it at all." (04:52)
• The two recount (hilariously) their messy initial attempts at makeup application, leading colleagues to offer tactful but honest feedback.
• Phoebe's 17-year-old niece provides a tutorial with more refined techniques, including the use of a headband and proper brushes, improving the outcome dramatically.
  • Phoebe: "I have never exactly known what the definition of a bordello is, but I looked that out. I worked there and had worked there overnight." (05:48)
  • Lauren (on Phoebe’s niece’s makeup skills): "I mean, it looks so good... These kids today. How did they learn?" (09:25)
• The pressure of live interviews, early mornings, and the pitfalls of wet hair on video are discussed with comic honesty.

2. Trivia and True Crime Anecdotes

Timestamps: 11:30–15:30

• Phoebe’s trivia: “In what state and at what speed is the highest posted speed limit in the country?” (Answer at end.)
• Lauren shares a harrowing story about Ariel Koenig, whose husband attempted to kill her during a Hawaii hike after discovering her emotional affair.
• Discussion about the frequency of spouse-related true crime, and the importance of grip strength in survival.

3. Everyday Life: Parties, House Rules, Beekeeper Crimes

Timestamps: 15:30–24:00

• Phoebe plans to center a graduation party around competitive grip strength testing, inspired by recent news.
  • Phoebe: "Sarah did hers 68... Normal range. I did mine...103." (16:56)
• The etiquette of checking into a VRBO/Airbnb early raises questions about boundaries and expectations (~19:11).
• Phoebe recounts the “bee woman” in Massachusetts, who used beehives as a protest tool during a friend’s eviction—a creative, memorable crime from the news.
  • Lauren: "It's hard to imagine hearing about your friend, something bad happening to your friend, and then your first thought is, 'I'm gonna load up the bees.'" (22:45)

4. Health Oddities and Wild Treatments

Timestamps: 23:18–24:24

• Anecdotes about unconventional treatments: bee stings for Lyme disease, a man letting venomous snakes bite him as ‘self-created’ antivenom donor, and the limitations of anti-venom treatments.
• Reminders about regional dangers (snakes, spiders), and staying vigilant.

5. Therapist Breakups: Navigating Difficult Conversations

Timestamps: 25:22–29:50

• Lauren describes the emotional difficulty of "breaking up" with her therapist, seeking Phoebe’s advice and perspectives on the most thoughtful, least awkward method.
  • Lauren: "I think that this is one of the more difficult social projects I've undertaken in my entire life." (26:18)
• Phoebe advocates for a direct, honest approach in-person; Lauren, more cautious, opts for an advance email to give her therapist time to process.
  • Phoebe: "It's me. I'm the problem. I'm the problem." (27:18)
• The segment offers a wry, relatable look at the anxieties and etiquette of changing significant personal relationships.

6. Criminal as Couples’ Glue & Listener Stories

Timestamps: 29:55–31:50

• Listener emails highlight how Criminal serves as common ground for couples with divergent views—even in storm shelters!
  • Listener Heather: "Ten years ago, we were at a breaking point in difference of political views. But one thing we agreed on, we loved Criminal. It was the one thing we were able to talk about and discuss without opposition." (29:27)
• Phoebe: "Not just putting people to sleep, also bringing people together." (30:47)
• Amusing aside: couples listen to “Phoebe Reads” to fall asleep as a “throuple.”

7. Florist Confessions: The Secret Life of Card Dictation

Timestamps: 31:51–32:25

• Sarah's sister's stories from working at a florist: reading outlandish, intimate, or explicit card messages dictated by customers for flower arrangements.
  • Phoebe (joking example): "Get ready for Daddy. Big boys coming home later. Happy Valentine's Day. I made that up, but you get the gist anyway." (32:04)
  • Lauren remarks on the oddity and intimacy of dictating such notes to strangers.

8. Grocery Aisle Thoughts & Product Recommendations

Timestamps: 32:27–35:07

• Listener reactions to a previous Costco episode, discussion of brand differences (specifically Suki’s samosas), and popular demand for a Trader Joe’s-themed episode.
• SodaStream vs. La Croix seltzer habits and debates about the best home carbonation setup.
• Listener correction: Gardener’s World has run for 55 seasons, not just 25.

9. Personal Enjoyments: What’s Good This Month

Timestamps: 35:07–44:11

• Phoebe and Lauren’s current favorites:
  • Hot Yoga at New Durham Studio (37:31): Candid details about their physical struggles and joys, including the much-anticipated lavender towel at the end.
    • Phoebe: "It is just a furnace. It's 107 degrees... my mat was... like the dog got out of a lake." (39:07)
  • Micellar Water Makeup Remover (41:14)
    • Phoebe: "This is the stuff. It's not expensive. You squirt it on a little piece of cotton and it takes off all your makeup." (41:33)
  • Chainmail Cast Iron Pan Scrubber (42:17): For easy cleaning and longevity of cast iron pans.
  • TV and Movies: New “Beef” series and “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy” (44:08), plus a negative review of “Marty Supreme” for being overwhelming.
  • Personal Recipes and Tips: Using olive oil to season cast-iron pans, nostalgia for inherited cookware.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On feedback:
  "When you ask a question, I feel like it's abundantly clear you want an honest answer, which I find absolutely refreshing." — Lauren (06:55)
• On trying makeup:
  “At the end of it, I have never exactly known what the definition of a bordello is, but I looked that up. I worked there and had worked there overnight.” — Phoebe (05:48)
• On bee-wielding protests:
  "It's kind of creative, at least. I mean, we need to hear some creativity in the world." — Phoebe (22:35)
• On therapist breakups:
  "I think that this is one of the more difficult social projects I've undertaken in my entire life." — Lauren (26:18)
• On couples & Criminal:
  "Not just putting people to sleep, also bringing people together." — Phoebe (30:47)
• On hot yoga & transformation:
  "It is just a furnace. It's 107 degrees... my mat was... like the dog got out of a lake." — Phoebe (39:07) "We are both going and we are trying so hard in there." — Lauren (37:57)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:45 — Introduction to new video series and makeup challenge
• 03:58 — Lauren’s makeup shopping and “Sephora in a Kohl’s” experience
• 07:00–10:01 — Second (improved!) makeup tutorial with Phoebe’s niece
• 11:55–15:30 — True crime anecdote: attempted murder on a hike
• 16:11 — Competitive grip strength and party planning
• 20:14–23:18 — “Bee woman” crime and creative assaults
• 25:22–29:50 — Therapist breakup: strategies, anxieties, etiquette
• 29:55–31:50 — Listener emails on Criminal as relationship glue
• 32:27–35:07 — Grocery, product debates, and listener notes
• 37:31–41:14 — Hot yoga: joint suffering and delights
• 41:14–44:08 — Monthly recommendations: cleansers, cookware, films

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Tone and Style

The conversation is informal, genuinely personal, self-deprecating, and peppered with the duo’s signature wit. Phoebe and Lauren mix serious reflections on change and vulnerability with charming detours into the weird, useful, or quirky moments of daily life.

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Key Takeaways

• Adapting to change is both comical and transformative: Phoebe’s video transition becomes an everywoman story about learning something new (makeup) in adulthood.
• Honest communication, especially around endings, is hard: Breaking up with a therapist is adulting at its hardest, but also an opportunity to grow.
• Community forms in unexpected places: Whether it's through a podcast shared in a storm shelter or a bee-based act of protest, people connect and support one another in odd, delightful ways.
• Small routines and recommendations (from makeup remover to chainmail scrubbers) matter: The joys of daily life, new skills, and little rituals are celebrated alongside the show’s usual tales of crime and consequence.

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Closing Notes

The episode blends laughter, vulnerability, and a peek behind the podcast curtain, making “Breaking Up is Hard to Do” both highly relatable and quietly profound—more about the uproarious, often awkward, fully human journey of getting by in a world that forever demands we change, learn, and sometimes just let go.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, it's Phoebe. This is an episode of Criminal plus, the show I make with Lauren Spore, co creator of Criminal. It's very different from Criminal. My father thinks it's the better show. If you like it and want more, become a member of Criminal plus at patreon.com criminal it's the very best thing you can do to support all of our work. I know you've heard me say that before, but it is really true. And right now you can use a special promo code, join 25 to get 25% off an annual membership. Again, that's patreon.com criminal there's a link in the show notes too. Welcome to Criminal Plus. I'm Phoebe Judge.

[B]

I'm Lauren Spohr.

[A]

Lauren, I have been on a journey. I have been on. It's maybe one of the biggest journeys ever been on my life. And it has nothing to do with traveling. You also have been alongside me for part of this journey over the past 10 days.

[B]

I have to say, and I don't mean this to be rude, but I. You have really impressed me.

[A]

We are starting something new and that is going to be a new video series. We're going to be releasing videos of interviews I do with people. And there'll be an audio version too, but there'll also be a video version that's going to live on YouTube. And, you know, everyone else is doing it. So we thought, why not us?

[B]

We'll try.

[A]

We'll try, we'll try. And so because of this, because we were gonna do video and we haven't done it before, we decided that we were gonna, we were going to make my studio that I'm in, in Massachusetts a lot of the time into more of a video studio. And that meant that for the past four days, I have been there. I'm back in North Carolina now, but I've been there with very talented camera people and more importantly, as I'm learning, lighting people, getting the studio video ready. So they did their jobs and they did a wonderful job. But I had a job. And that job was getting camera ready gifts, getting camera ready myself. And it was suggested that I should try a bit of makeup. And now I've, of course, worn makeup in the past. I wear makeup for the live shows. I wear makeup for photo shoots when I do them. I wear makeup for big events, but I don't wear makeup in my daily life.

[B]

And I think it's safe to say that you don't. You haven't applied the makeup that you've worn in the past.

[A]

True. I mean, maybe I've screwed around a little bit with mascara, but, you know, I haven't really. And so I, I. This is also the type of situation, if we're going to be doing these videos often, I think we're going to be doing them. You know, it's not gonna be every day. But I. It's a big experiment, but I needed to know how to do this myself. You know, I wasn't. Someone's not gonna come in and put the makeup on me every time I do a video interview. So what were we gonna do? So last week, Lauren went out to Sephora and said, I'm gonna buy you some makeup. I wonder if it's worth putting up the journey pictures of the makeup stages. Lauren came over to my house with a bag from Sephora. And, Lauren, what were you. You had just decided what you thought I might need?

[B]

Yes. And I think that our criminal plus listeners, our most trusted best friends, we can say Phoebe has had a little bit of a red face for the last year or so. And so one challenge for this camera project was like, how do we mitigate

[A]

the redness, Lauren, we can talk about rosacea on another show. It's a journey. It's.

[B]

Well, when I walked into Sephora, I thought to myself, she's going to need something green. Because I think you use green. I think if you put green makeup on top of red's face, it makes the redness look better. So my eye was looking for a green product, which I found. I was looking for a translucent powder, which I got from Clinique. This was a Sephora located entirely inside of a Kohl's. Have you ever experienced that before? I walked the front door, what I was looking at from the parking lot was a Sephora next to a Kohl's. And then I walked in the Sephora doors, and I was in the Kohl's, and I was like, oh, I went in the wrong door. So I walked back out. And then I was like, oh, no, I guess that's right. Walked back in. And then the Sephora was entirely. It was like the middle of a donut, and all around you in the Sephora, you were inside of a Kohl's. So it wasn't the most that Sephora could offer. It was a little bit of a smaller selection, but I made it work. Translucent powder. Got you some mascara. I got her a brown eyeliner that had a brush on the other side, and a Laneige lip mask, which is a product that I like, and a clear Eyebrow gel and a blush stick. And so I was operating with this. When I put on makeup, I like to keep it simple and fast. You can do it in the car if you need to. You can do it with one hand if you need to. So I thought, Phoebe probably wants it to be simple if she's going to do it at all.

[A]

So Lauren showed up and she said, we'll just sit here at the dining room table. No light needed. Don't worry about lights.

[B]

We had a huge sunlight, huge open bay window.

[A]

And then she said, just use your fingers.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I do it.

[A]

To just start. Oh, and a brush.

[B]

I got her a nice brush.

[A]

One brush. But just use your fingers, she said. And I.

[B]

To apply the green concealer.

[A]

Well, also everything. Lauren, you just kept saying, use your finger. Don't worry, just spread it on. And so I did. And I tell you, at the end of it, I have never exactly known what the definition of a bordello is, but I looked that out. I worked there and had worked there overnight. It was.

[B]

I think it was a really. There was. I think the problem was we did a layer of green concealer, then powder, then we tried more green concealer and then more powder. So I feel like we had a layer cake. And then we had put the eyeliner on. And then we decided, let's see how

[A]

it looks with more heavier on. Heavier.

[B]

It was just an experiment. So we sent some photos to our colleagues, and their response was polite.

[A]

Their response was, you know, what's interesting is one always wants to be polite to your colleagues. And so sometimes if you just see something that might be a little off, you don't say anything. You say, it looks great. This was so off that they couldn't stop themselves. No.

[B]

I think something to your credit, something about working with you, is that you. It's like no one wants to just put. In my opinion, I feel like you invite directness. Like, when you ask a question, I feel like it's abundantly clear you want an honest answer, which I find absolutely refreshing. And I wish more people operated like that.

[A]

Well, they were honest. Yeah.

[B]

Which was great.

[A]

So I. So we needed to fix that. And so I said, just wash it

[B]

off and try again later. And then I hit the road. So that was, like, the extent of my contribution.

[A]

So the next couple days later, I was flying to Massachusetts because it was my niece's parent teacher conferences weekend, parents weekend. So I was going to see her. And she is 17. And so if you're 17, a certain type of 17 year old. You know how to do makeup? Sure. Makeup is wonderful. She loves to do makeup. And she said to me, don't worry, Phoebe. I. I'll take care of it. I'll teach you how to do everything. And so we laid all the products that Lauren got me out, and she had some questions about some of Lauren's choices. The first thing she said is, phoebe, where are the brushes? You don't have anything to put apply. And I said, lauren just says, use your fingers. And she said. She didn't really know what to say. And then she had me. She said, the first thing we're gonna do is she had me put on this headband. It's a makeup headband. It has a big bow in the front of it. And she said, that's gonna help. And so then she taught.

[B]

What does that do?

[A]

Keeps your hair out of the. So you can get the makeup all the way up on your forehead. She said I had to wear it. We have a little. We have a little video that she had me take of how I should apply the makeup. Should we play a little clip of it? Okay. It's in my eyebrows, but we'll fix that right now. Okay. Do you think I need more, or do you think this is good? More. How much do you usually put? I mean, you just put a little more of the. Of the. Okay. Yeah, but don't use the green drops. Or should I. You have green drops? Yeah. Oh, that. Oh, you can use that. Oh, girl,

[B]

you could do that too.

[A]

That's why you need to have, like, a brush. This is like, you don't. You know when you. Scissorhands. I would put a little here. Okay. So then I sent a picture to Lauren, and I said, what do you think? And you said, can she do my makeup?

[B]

I mean, it looks so good.

[A]

Looks.

[B]

These kids today. I don't. How did they learn?

[A]

It looked fantastic.

[B]

It looks fantastic.

[A]

But it wasn't. It. Maybe it was a little too much. It wasn't. No makeup. Makeup, which is what I was going for. High glam. And so then. So I get to the studio. I leave everyone. I'm by myself. Camera people are setting up cameras and lights. And here we go. I'm on. I gotta do it myself.

[B]

You were unresponsive to phone calls and texts for a pretty long time. And then I just received the photo.

[A]

And then you.

[B]

And I knew what you had been doing with your time.

[A]

What did you think?

[B]

Fighting for your life with the makeup mirror? No, it looked wonderful. I was completely impressed that after what like one tutorial from me, which was helpful, and one really helpful tutorial from your niece. And you are now very good at putting on makeup. Well, I was absolutely impressed.

[A]

So. Yeah. So it's a new life. It's makeup life every day or. No, not every day. Only when we're doing the videos, which

[B]

is gonna be often.

[A]

Yeah, but you know, the thing about the videos is it's been, I think for all of us here, we've all been a little bit, you know, we know how to cut audio, we don't know how to cut video. What are we. But it's actually kind of fun. It's. Katie Bishop and I were on a 6am video interview yesterday with a man in Australia that was a little rough to get the makeup looking right at

[B]

6am but another thing for you is you don't want to have wet hair.

[A]

I think that's for you.

[B]

Well, what if, like, can you imagine turning on like morning news and the newscaster had wet hair?

[A]

Yes. You don't want to.

[B]

But I have another question for you, which is you're doing some off the cuff videos for social media. Are you worried about the contrast being very great between an off the cuff Phoebe on her way to go jogging and then high glam Phoebe people? Are they gonna know it's the same person or.

[A]

Anyway, the video thing is exciting. It's totally brand new for all of us. We've recorded three so far, including with

[B]

one with a big celeb.

[A]

Yep. Well, big celeb. It's not Beyonce.

[B]

Well, it's a very famous crime writer.

[A]

Yes. Fiction woman.

[B]

Phoebe, do you have a trivia question?

[A]

I do have a trivia question. Trivia with Phoebe. Lauren, in what state and at what speed is the highest speed limit in the country? It is not all over the state. It is on a section of highway.

[B]

Have we been on it?

[A]

Posted speed limit. We have not been on it. So I can even if it'd be helpful, I could give you the state and then you can just pick.

[B]

No, I don't want you to give me the state, but I'm gonna do a prelim that it's South Dakota. Okay.

[A]

And do you know what the speed limit would be? The posted speed limit?

[B]

80.

[A]

Okay, I will get back to you at the end of the show.

[B]

I'm also interested in Montana.

[A]

Yeah. The only speeding ticket I ever got in my life. Okay, what state and at what speed is the highest speed limit in America?

[B]

Right before this call, I was reading about a woman named Ariel Koenig, 37. She's a central witness in a murder trial. Her husband is on trial for trying to murder her. And so at the trial, she read a birthday card that he had given to her that morning. Can I read it to you? Happy birthday, angel face. This is the card that her husband gave her shortly before he attempted to kill her on a hike. Happy birthday, angel face. There isn't an obstacle in this world too hard for me to fight through for you. You're the heart of our family, and. And that heart is strong. You're a terrific mom. The kids and I hit the jackpot with you. Love always. Gee. This is what happened a couple of years before. The husband, Gerhart, logged into his wife's WhatsApp account and saw that she was exchanging WhatsApp messages with a coworker who was also married. And they. They worked together at a nuclear energy company. She worked remotely. And then apparently the relationship was lots and lots and lots of messages, but nothing ever physical, according to the wife. But the husband, sometimes they were messaging all day long on weekends, and always talking about sort of personal things. And they had a code word. So if Arielle Koenig wanted to tell her coworker that her husband was nearby, she would use this work term, H, A, L, E, U, an acronym for a type of nuclear fuel that they both worked with professionally. The husband finds this out. He can't stop monitoring her phone. He's obsessed with it. He confronts her, and then they agree that they're going to not separate. They're going to give their marriage two years, a two year project. And then he asked his wife, what do you want to do to celebrate your birthday? And she said she'd always wanted to visit Oahu. And she says, you know, we can go another time. We don't have to go right away. And the husband immediately books the trip, gives his wife the birthday card, gives her a necklace. And then according to her, and according to the prosecution, they're on this hike that's over like a rugged cliff. He grabbed her and began pushing her toward the edge of the ridge. She threw herself down and grabbed onto some shrubs and bushes and was just screaming and screaming. And then, according to her, her husband pulled out a vial and a liquid and tried to inject her with something from a. With a syringe. And that is what I was just reading about. Have you heard this story? How many stories have we talked about this year of men trying to kill their wives on hikes?

[A]

This leads me to a very important thing that we should talk about grip strength. It is one of the key indicators of overall health. This woman was doing something right if she was able to hold onto those shrubs.

[B]

Grabbing hold of roots and shrubs, grip strength.

[A]

This was something. We're having a graduation party this weekend, and I thought, I always like when we throw a party. When I throw a party, I always like there to be something, you know, it can't just be a cocktail party. There should be an event, you know, so your roast oysters, or there's something, you know, some built around something.

[B]

Will we be testing our hand strength?

[A]

Well, this is what I was thinking, thinking last week, Sarah bought one of these things for $23 on Amazon. It's a digital display, and you squeeze it as hard as you can, and it shows you your power. Sarah did hers 68. Fantastic. Normal range. Great. And then I did mine. And I thought it would be so fun at the party to have everyone go around and, you know, you have to write it on a little list. I thought you would really like that, Lauren.

[B]

I would.

[A]

Then I was thinking, I did think to myself, lauren would love this so much. For $25, should I just get it for her for, like, her birthday present?

[B]

You could just have, because then you can train and test again.

[A]

Do you know what mine was?

[B]

You didn't even ask what was it? What's the max?

[A]

I don't think there is, like, maybe 190, 103.

[B]

Wow. Okay. I can't wait to talk.

[A]

And it's fun because your left hand, your right hand. But anyway, grip strength. Start thinking about it. If you haven't. Clearly there are circumstances where you may need to hold on to roots or shrubs, and you need to make sure those fingers are strong enough. Speaking of fingers, Lauren, it's like Marilyn Monroe just came across the screen.

[B]

Me?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Just put your hand up across the screen. It's like Marilyn Monroe.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Wow, that is a. What. What mood do you have to be in to get that color of red on your nails? Because it looks like 1952 over there.

[B]

What do you mean, what mood? It's like, just classic, but.

[A]

But, but I know it's classic, but it's like a Marilyn Monroe color. You know, that. That bright, bright red.

[B]

I feel like if you're gonna spend the money, you need to do something. Although I know I'm the person who said, go do it with no polish at all, but if you're gonna get polished, I feel like you want to see it, you want to notice it. I just went and had my mother and I went and got manicures.

[A]

Well, I can tell.

[B]

Do you know what her favorite nail polish color is? Ever since I was a little kid, my entire life, it's called Grand Canyon Sunset. And so anytime we go to a nail salon together, she'll say, I wish they still made Grand Canyon Sunset. And it's like such a potent memory.

[A]

Is it orangey red?

[B]

It's like a brownish red.

[A]

Do you remember when Nikki Silva. Maybe it was Davia Nelson, the Kitchen Sisters. We were at some audio conference festival in New York, and I think we were doing something. We had a little part of it, but then we stayed for Davia Nelson's. The whole entire audio piece was her just reading names of lipsticks.

[B]

That's right. It was great.

[A]

It was wonderful because the names are so wild. Yeah, it was just name after name after name.

[B]

My mom asked me an etiquette question, which I will now ask you. How early, if any amount early, can you check into a VRBO or an Airbnb with a keypad door? So if check in is at 4 mm, how early would you dare to go in?

[A]

I would write to the owner beforehand and say, I'm just one. I said, I'm arriving at two. Is there any way to. So that's what I would do. I would be too scared to go.

[B]

I would never want to go anyway.

[A]

I would go 15 minutes early, but I would just write to the owner and say, I'm gonna be in the area. Is it possible to check in?

[B]

Well, she sent me the message one hour before check in. I didn't see it until 25 minutes before check in. And I said. I replied, I wouldn't do that. And then she replied, oops, because she was already in.

[A]

Lauren, I have a story that we have. I've been following this story we all have for a little while, but there was movement on it this week.

[B]

What?

[A]

This is the story about the woman and the bees in Massachusetts. So this was a few years ago. A woman, she was in her mid-50s. She showed up at her friend's house. An elderly gentleman who was being served eviction papers. He had cancer. He was sick, and the sheriff's office had shown up to serve him eviction papers. His friend, this woman shows up wearing. She's a beekeeper, and she showed up wearing her beekeeper suit with a truckload of beehives behind her. She got out of the car in her suit, in her suit, full suit. As the deputies were trying to evict the man, serve her friend eviction papers. She opened all of the hives and let the bees go towards the officers. Officers were swatting bees away. Beehives were falling on each other, crushing some bees. The officers were. Were very stung, some of them badly. They were all okay, but they were bad, badly stung. She says it was an accident. She didn't know the hives opened. She though was in her full suit with hood, so. But she was in her full suit, so she did not get stung. She was convicted of four misdemeanor counts of assault and battery and two counts of reckless assault. She spent six months in jail waiting for the trial, and then served another couple of weeks. What she said when they asked her? She said that she was. Why she opened the hives? She said she was only wanting the bees to forage on a lovely landscape. She had no intention. She was wearing the full suit.

[B]

Well, I also read that she was wrestled to the ground by the police officers and that a bunch of her bees died during that.

[A]

And a queen bee dies after it stings. So if they're stinging all of the police officers, it's kind. I understand it could be very dangerous if any of the officers were allergic, but it isn't. It's kind of creative, at least. I mean, we need to hear some creativity in the world.

[B]

It's hard to imagine hearing about your friend, something bad happening to your friend, and then your first thought is, I'm gonna load up the bees.

[A]

Where's the suit?

[B]

It reminds me of our this is Love episode about bees telling the bees.

[A]

Go through the.

[B]

There's so many things in that that I think about. Yeah, Especially, I guess, like where we got the title. The idea that you have the bees when someone has died.

[A]

Is it true that bees are the secret to life? That this is the marker of the health of our entire ecosystem? Yeah, I think someone's. Oh, my God.

[B]

Okay. Someone told me the other day that there's a woman in town who has chronic Lyme disease and that she's undergoing this interesting treatment where she manually stings herself up and down her spine with bees, and that it is working. That of all the different treatments she's tried. Have you ever heard of this?

[A]

No. But chronic Lyme is no joke. So how do you make a bee?

[B]

How do you. What do you hold?

[A]

Yeah, you must hold it. You must be able to.

[B]

And then you can just, like, force it to sting you.

[A]

I. I pitched a story. Yeah, I pitched a story a couple months ago about a man who was. Who had purposefully let himself be bitten by snakes. Oh, venomous Snakes that his blood could be used as an anti venom for others.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

I know. We're having a hard time getting him to call us back.

[B]

I had a pottery teacher tell me that he had been bit by a brown recluse spider and that they used the anti venom drug that they used at the hospital. Meant that if he were ever bit by a venomous snake, it wouldn't work. As though once your body's acclimated to these anti venom medications, like, you only have one chance.

[A]

Sort of, yeah.

[B]

I think it's something to worry about.

[A]

Well, certainly around here with the copperheads

[B]

and all the spiders.

[A]

You know what you have to watch out for, Lauren?

[B]

What?

[A]

Getting into your car. Because they like the coolness under cars. You've got to watch your ankles.

[B]

Who? Spiders or snakes?

[A]

Copperheads.

[B]

Oh, my God. I have really big news, which is that in the last episode of Criminal, I talked about my garbage can buckles, which I was really excited about because I thought it was keeping the raccoons from getting in last night. Open the carport door, hear a loud thrashing around, and I. And then a little raccoon popped his head out. So he had somehow, like, pried the plastic open, gotten in, and was just in there eating. So I need to rethink the buckles. Tighten the buckles.

[A]

Did you let him out?

[B]

No, because he let himself out. I was scared to go too close. As you know, I'm dealing with something really big, which is that I attempted to write an email to break up with my therapist.

[A]

What if she's listening to this?

[B]

I don't think that she is.

[A]

I. I absolutely think she could be.

[B]

What, without ever telling me no.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Oh, I think that would be, like, actually, like a weird violation, don't you think?

[A]

So does your therapist listen? We're just gonna. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no. But, you know, I don't really have. I just. It's kind of a retainer situation with me. It's a. I keep her on retainer a bit. It's a rather quick check in every two weeks. Sometimes 10 minutes. Sometimes I don't want to waste a lot of her time, so.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I think she gets it.

[B]

I think that this is one of the more difficult social projects I've undertaken in my entire life.

[A]

We discussed this this morning, and you and I differed on how we would have approached this.

[B]

Well, this is what I wanted to ask the listener. I wrote. It's sort of like if you're receiving difficult professional news, a lot of Times they send an email, so you have a minute to sort of digest. So I sent an email saying that I would like to discuss, but I. I'm feeling like it's time to wind down.

[A]

And then you.

[B]

And then I said, looking forward to your thoughts. Yeah, and I'll see you on Monday and we'll talk. And I imagine that we'll meet a number of times to talk about it. It's not just like a goodbye forever, but it is. I am stressed. I am stressed.

[A]

And I said that I would be, too. I said that the way I would handle this is not. At the end of the session. At the beginning of the session, I would have said, I'd like to talk about something.

[B]

And what words would you. Okay, keep going. What would you say?

[A]

I'd like to talk about something and. Okay. But I've been thinking a lot about this, and I've been thinking about it for a long time, and I think maybe I'm not getting as much out of these conversations as I used to, because I think I'm very different now. And I think I've changed a lot. And I've just been thinking about at the end of our sessions, making it about you. I've been thinking about at the end of our sessions, I'm realizing I'm not getting enough. And so you. This long preamble, me, it's me. I'm the problem. I'm the problem. I'm the problem. And then she says, lauren, of course, I just want to support you in anything you want. And, yeah, you know, and then. Then you've opened. So that's how I would have now, cats out of the bag. What's done is done.

[B]

But I think I was worried that if I didn't sort of take a minute to choose my words carefully, that if I said I'm not getting as much out of these sessions, that could. Something like that could feel like an insult to her. So I wanted to make sure that I was deploying the information carefully. I planted the seed so now she'll know what I want to talk about. Also, like, what if something sort of chaotic happens the morning of the session and then I chicken out and don't bring it up. Well, I think this is. I think this is a new. It's a new level of being. Feeling like a grownup, and she hasn't responded. So

[A]

if you're looking for a new therapist, you may need to look no further.

[B]

Oh, we're offering your services.

[A]

Maybe after you hear this email that we received this week, okay. Heather wrote, my husband and I have been married 20 years. We've developed different views and opinions over those years. Ten years ago, we were at a breaking point in difference of political views. But one thing we agreed on, we loved Criminal. It was the one thing we were able to talk about and discuss without opposition. The subtle social justice points made in personal stories relevant to current events brought us to the same page. Now, a decade later, we still love Criminal and we are in the best place we've ever been.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Who needs better help?

[B]

Well, we need them to sponsor us. We do.

[A]

Betterhelp.com criminal.

[B]

Should I go contact a better help therapist for advice on how to break up with my real life therapist?

[A]

We also got another email about. This is so interesting. Couples listening to Criminal together. Here's another one we got this listener wrote in from Oklahoma and said she put on Criminal during a big storm while she and her husband were sheltering in their laundry room with their animals. Because Criminal was something we could agree on. Wow. Not just putting people to sleep, also bringing people together. I say that only because when I was doing a lot of Phoebe reads, I would oftentimes hear from couples who would tell me that they would turn Phoebe reads on at night in bed, and that's how they would fall to fall asleep. So it'd be like the cup me as part of their couple.

[B]

Oh, okay. A throuple.

[A]

A throuple. Speaking of romance, I was thinking about this earlier and I didn't bring it up because I just was remembering. Sarah's sister used to work in a flower store in a florist. And on Valentine's Day, she would call us at the end of the day and read to us what she remembered of the cards that people would have her dictate in their flower arrangements.

[B]

Oh, that's so good.

[A]

And it was shocking. Imagine.

[B]

Oh, I would have just guessed. It was all like, happy birthday. All my best.

[A]

No, no. Roger calls up and says, well, what'd you like on the card, Roger? I can't even say it.

[B]

Wild things. Erotica.

[A]

Yes, but wild stuff. A look into the human psyche.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes. She would report she couldn't make this stuff up. I don't know why I was just thinking about that.

[B]

Can you give an example?

[A]

Yeah, I'll give an example. It's totally inappropriate.

[B]

Is there something like psychopathic about dictating that to a stranger who works in the Flora shop and making them write it?

[A]

That's what, that's what was so fascinating.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Exactly. This isn't typing it in 1-800-FLowers. You can type your own message. This is okay. Well, yes, sir. What would you like me to say? Get ready for Daddy. Big boys coming home later. Happy Valentine's Day. I made that up, but you get the gist anyway.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I don't know why I thought about it. It's not Valentine's Day.

[B]

I don't. I was really touched by the responses to the Costco episode and how.

[A]

Yes. And the number of people who are begging us to now go to Trader Joe's. We've had so many emails and calls from people saying, please now go to Trader Joe's. I'd be happy to go to Lauren. Would you be happy to go to Trader Joe's? I think. I think I'm gonna lead you down those aisles. Do you know Trader Joe's that well? I feel like you could take me

[B]

around Wegmans, but I just need to say something because when we were in Costco, I was excited to see Suki's brand samosas, which is one of my favorite foods. And someone wrote in to say that they bought them because of that and that they were disappointed. And I have to say that I agree. And the Suki's samosas at Costco are bigger and different than the ones that you get at the regular grocery store. And because they're bigger, they're more dried out.

[A]

So you're not recommending them?

[B]

Well, I, I. How was I supposed to know that the ones at Costco that look exactly the same are going to be bigger and different? Are Costco like the individual food item? I thought would have been the same inside of the.

[A]

Yeah, me too. Yeah. No, no, that's an anomaly. That's Suki. That's an anomaly.

[B]

That's right. It's making me suspicious.

[A]

No, that's one product. One product flaw.

[B]

People thought that I sounded really excited about the samples, which was mortifying to hear, but thank you for listening. We got an email from Jonathan. He says, as a fellow seltzer addict, I suggest the purchase of a SodaStream or the like, and you need to keep a backup CO2 bottle and you will never run out.

[A]

I know. The problem is that then that requires a different type of transport. You have to make the seltzer and then pour it into another vessel and that's. It takes up a lot of space. Jonathan, thank you. Of course, I've considered it. And certainly with the. I understand about the added flavors and seltzer is supposed to be terrible for us, Cancer Central, but I am working on it. I'm working on less. You know, I.

[B]

The cans. The cans are lined with plastic.

[A]

Two seltzers is two La Croix a

[B]

day, plus your Diet Coke. 93 cans a day. Allison has a fact check. She says, I am also a huge fan of Gardener's World. I'm from the uk, but I live abroad in a hot, dry city, unnamed. So for me it brings great joy to see my home country and how green it is. Just wanted to fact check your. It's been running for 25 years quote comments about the show. She says the show started in the 60s and has had over 55 seasons so far. That is impressive.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. I knew it had been long Monty dawn on for a very long time.

[B]

Well, we also got a note from Adam who says, Phoebe, you mentioned that your wish was to fly over your house and tip your wings. I wanted to suggest that you book a Discovery flight with a nearby flight school. You'll be shown the basics of flight controls and will actually fly the plane. If you live close enough to the home airport, you might be able to arrange with the flight instructor to fly over your house. I think that's a great idea. And you should bring a recorder. Bring us with you. I will stay on the ground.

[A]

I. After my recent video interview two days ago with someone who flies their own helicopters, I have just. I'm right there. I need nothing else to get me to get in that plane and start taking lessons. And I am pretty close to a very good flight school, so there's no excuse. And that is what I did for my birthday last year. I took the biplane ride over the house, but I wasn't flying. Lauren, are you ready to find out the answer to the trivia question?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you guess South Dakota and 80 miles an hour?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You're wrong on both.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The state is Texas.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

The highest posted speed limit in the United States is a stretch of. I believe Route 130 could be one. Let me actually tell you. 130. It's a 40 mile section of the Texas State Highway 130 toll road, also known as the Pickle Parkway between San Antonio and Austin. And the highest, the posted speed limit is 85 miles per hour.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Rarely have I ever gone 85 miles an hour. I can't imagine. And then you go five over, you're going 90.

[B]

Would you like to talk about things you've been enjoying lately?

[A]

Yes, I would. Well, I think one of the things that you've been enjoying and I've been Enjoying. We actually, I don't know if this has ever happened before. I think we have a crossover.

[B]

This is also. This is gonna be a reveal into our lives.

[A]

What part of it? What do you mean a reveal into. But tell me what. I'm just wondering what the reveal is going to be.

[B]

I just think this is a. This is personal.

[A]

That we'd be interested in this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, we bought the founding membership for a month, so I don't know if we're gonna be interested next month.

[B]

There was a mis. Phoebe and I had a misunderstanding about this also. I said I bought, I became a founding member, which she somehow thought meant that I was like an investor in a new local yoga studio. But it's not just yoga. It is hot yoga.

[A]

It's hot yoga.

[B]

And we are both going and we are trying so hard in there.

[A]

Here's what happened. Lauren said there's this new yoga place that's just opened in downtown Durham.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Well, we know why you're going back because the smoothie bar, which are pretty good. She said it's great. So then the best thing about it is that you can order your smoothie before class and when you walk out of class, it's lined up for you, your name on it, no waiting. She went, she said, would you come with me? And I said, lauren, I can barely do yoga and I certainly have never done.

[B]

Well, first I misunderstood and thought I could bring you for free because of my founding membership, which was incorrect.

[A]

So I went to an hour long hot yoga class. I had not gone to a yoga class since about eight years. A real life yoga class. They do little the yoga peloton stuff. And I didn't know what to expect. I go in there, I grab a little towel, we open the door. It is just a furnace. It's 107 degrees. Lauren and I put our little mat side by side and we start going. The sweat is pouring off of me.

[B]

I look over at Phoebe's mat. It is like eight. The dog got out of a lake and shook off. Your mat was. And I said you were sweating more than me because you have such a high levels of cardio fitness.

[A]

I was sliding, my feet were sliding. I didn't know what to do.

[B]

She was also just glaring at me the entire time.

[A]

You're so hot you can't do anything. You don't understand the poses. Warrior 1, 2, front lunge, crescent moon svasana.

[B]

The music is very loud also.

[A]

I couldn't hear. I was so hot. I couldn't.

[B]

I cannot Hear the inspiration.

[A]

She. She's just trying to follow along with her. So we go to the first we get out of it, and then the. The most wonderful thing in the world is at the end of it, they come by with a cold lavender towel and it feels like heroin. I don't. It must. This must be what heroin feels like. It's fantastic. Anyway, so that's. That's my number. Can we say it's your number one, too, Lauren?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I've really been enjoying. Feels so good to walk out of there and have your smoothie and then I don't know. I don't know why it's so fun.

[A]

It's so hard, though, in the middle of it. It's just. It's so hard, man. Gosh. But you know, I got one of those towels, so I put the towel on top of the mat. Now it helps with the sweat. What's your number two, Lauren?

[B]

My number two is a movie called Black Bag.

[A]

This one of these corporate thrillers?

[B]

No, but it's Cate Blanchett. Do you pronounce it Blanchett or Blanchett?

[A]

I pronounce it Blanchett.

[B]

Oh, Black Bag. This is a spy movie directed by Steven Soderbergh and it has Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender. They are both intelligence officers, married. And that's all I'm gonna say. I thought it was wonderful.

[A]

Okay. The second thing I've been enjoying lately on my new makeup journey, Hot yoga makeup.

[B]

Who are you?

[A]

Is Jackie Stico here at Criminal recommended this product. And then my niece said, you have to have it. It's not fancy. This is my clear water.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Micellular.

[A]

My cellular water.

[B]

No, no, don't. I'm not sure.

[A]

This is makeup remover and it does a fantastic job. And I use those Neutrogena wipes and things. This is the stuff. It's not expensive. You, you know, squirt it on a little piece of cotton and it takes off all of your makeup. So that is my number two.

[B]

My technique for removing mascara is you just wait.

[A]

That's my technique too. But you know what happens when you wake up in the morning.

[B]

Yeah, it's fine. You just move forward. You just take the toilet paper and scrape. You look like underneath your eyes. And then.

[A]

Yeah, just rough scraping. Just like the makeup application.

[B]

Toilet paper. That's right. Just use, as I say, just use

[A]

your hands so that. Yes, that's my number two. What's your number three, Lauren?

[B]

My number three is a chainmaille cast iron pan scrubber. Do you own this?

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

Wow. I've been making scrambled eggs every morning in a cast iron, and it is not fun to clean unless you have one of these little chainmail scrubbers.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great recipe.

[B]

It's a simple, beautiful device. And then if you feel like it's getting kind of dirty, you just put it in the dishwasher.

[A]

Yep. It's great.

[B]

If people knew how much stuff I put in the dishwasher.

[A]

Listen, I would love to give a tutorial on how to care for a cast iron pan.

[B]

That would be fun.

[A]

I have cast. My father uses a cast iron pan that was his mother's that he used, she used when they were growing up.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

And if you saw it, it looks exactly the same.

[B]

Is it, like, shiny?

[A]

Yes. Perfect. It's beautiful.

[B]

That's really cool.

[A]

You never put soap.

[B]

I have a friend who only. Who doesn't ever wet their cast iron. They only use very, very coarse salt and a ton of scrubbing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have to never water you.

[A]

Do you know this idea that if it's been you, it every once in a while too. You know, by putting.

[B]

And when you say that, you mean olive oil in the oven.

[A]

Hot. Yeah, very hot. The number three thing that I've been enjoying lately is I think I do enjoy it. I think I'm going to say I'm enjoying it. Is the new season or the new. I don't think it's season of the show. Beef.

[B]

I can't wait to start it.

[A]

It's very dark, but there are these tiny little gestures and words that are so funny, so quietly weird and funny that I recommend it. I have watched two episodes, but I'm enjoying it.

[B]

I think Carey Mulligan is just.

[A]

She's great in this.

[B]

Yeah, she's great. Oh, you had us a review of Marty Supreme.

[A]

Yeah. I was flying back from Boston yesterday, and Marty supreme, when I tried to watch it before, is $20 to rent on Amazon or something. So I didn't want. I've never seen it. I didn't see it for the Oscars, but it was free on Delta. I didn't like it. I couldn't. I felt like I was on a moving train and I couldn't get off. And, you know, it was witty, of course, and move so quick and maybe if you're in it. But I just. It was. I needed something slower and quieter.

[B]

I. I walked out of Uncut Gems for a similar reason. I just was like, I needed to stop.

[A]

Yeah, that's amazing.

[B]

I'm not enjoying it.

[A]

I want to. I want to get off.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That's how I felt about Marty. Supreme. And I didn't even finish it. I have 43 minutes left. Plane landed. I don't know if I'll go back.

[B]

I watched the movie of Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy with Colin Firth. A pretty slow start, but then I very much enjoyed it.

[A]

Um, well, Lauren, I have to go, because I am. I'm gonna start tracking an episode of Love right now.

[B]

Great. Talk to you next time.

[A]

Bye. Bye.