A (2:55)

RINGING phones this is Brijette Davis. Her mother, Fannie Davis, was born in Nashville in 1928. Fannie's grandfather had been born into slavery there, and her father owned a successful plastering business in the early part of the 20th century.

C (3:13)

And that enabled him to buy property. And, and so he was both a businessman and a property owner. And so my mom witnessed his entrepreneurial spirit and was highly, highly influenced by him. She really admired her father's life.

A (3:31)

Fanny grew up in Nashville and married Brigette's father when she was 18.

C (3:36)

But like many African Americans, she decided to migrate north with her family in the mid-50s. She. So that they could have better opportunities and more liberties. And so they chose Michigan and ultimately Detroit. And they hadn't prepared themselves for what was awaiting one. The racism in Michigan was so virulent and distinctive from the Southern sort of discrimination they'd known about, that it took them off guard. They weren't prepared for that. And the way it manifested was in all the key ways. They couldn't find decent housing, they were charged exorbitant rent. My father was unable to find steady work. And so these things really plunged them into poverty. So she very early realized she'd have to step in and figure out something.

A (4:34)

Fanny Davis found a way to take care of her family. She started small, but built a robust and lucrative operation. A business that a lot of people knew about, but no one talked about,

C (4:49)

which happened to be illegal.

A (4:51)

It was called the Numbers. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. What were the Numbers?

C (5:04)

The Numbers? The Numbers are an underground lottery business for operation that has been in place since the early twenties. It moved across the country and it was designed by, created by a black man in Harlem and really was a black business. It thrived. It was a true economy, actually.

A (5:33)

By 1970, police estimated that one in every 15 people in Detroit played the numbers daily and that it was generating $94 million a year. Here's how you play.

C (5:44)

You get to choose a three digit number, and if that number is the winning number, you actually win a 500 to 1 payout. So if you bet a dollar on that three digit number and it came out, as we call it, then you actually would get $500. And so my mom knew about the numbers. Most black Americans knew or know about the numbers. And she played a bit herself. She played a few coins on numbers, but she noticed in her community where she was living in Detroit, that people were playing those numbers a lot. And she thought, hmm, they could Actually give me their bets. So she was very small scale at first, what she called a penny business, and eventually worked as a bookie for a large banker. So there were hundreds of bookies. You are a bookie if you take other people's numbers. Maybe you just sit at your kitchen table and you have five customers who call you and turn in their numbers to you. You're a bookie. The thing that distinguished her, the thing she did that almost no other women in Detroit did, was she was a banker. So that meant she paid out hits.

A (7:04)

So she wasn't going to the bank to collect on. The bank was her?

C (7:10)

Yes.

A (7:10)

Ultimately, before she could graduate from bookie to banker, Fanny needed a pool of money to pay out winning hits. So she asked her brother for help.

C (7:21)

And so she entered his home, as he tells me, she didn't even take her coat off. And she stood there and told him, John, I want to bank the numbers. And he said, are you sure about that? She says, yes, I've thought about it. And she explained how she would do it. And he said, okay. It made sense to him. She said, the only thing is I need you to loan me $100. Can you do that? And he said, yes, Fanny, I can do.

A (7:56)

Being a banker wasn't something that women did often. What do you think gave your mother the confidence to do this?

C (8:04)

I don't think it ever occurred to her that she couldn't. I don't think it ever occurred to her that I'm a woman so I can't do this. She thought I have a, I have a head for numbers, I am clear about my goals. I have all the skill sets in place. I can command respect. So I'm not worried about that. So why not? There was something about her. Not everyone could have done it. She was really perfect for this role and she had the qualities that made it possible to thrive at it. And that has everything to do with her, just who she was.

A (8:44)

Tell me about your mother's schedule, how the day would go once the business picked up. What was the day's schedule?

C (8:52)

My mom was up taking numbers in the morning early. Some of her customers wanted to turn their numbers in before they went to work and so she had to accommodate them. I remember someone in particular, a customer who would love to go fishing on Saturday mornings. So she liked to turn her numbers in at 6am A lot of people turn, like to call in their numbers during lunchtime. You know, there were these busier periods and then these sort of slow down periods and then busy again. And it got a lot more hectic as the afternoon wore on because there was a cutoff time. So that was often the busiest time of the day, that time right before the evening. So that was really how her day went. A lot of taking people's bets and. And also there were people who liked to come to the house and give their numbers directly to her. So there was that piece of it. There were people who liked to come in weekly and pay her directly, you know, so there was this mix of collecting the money and then receiving it from people who showed up at the house.

A (9:58)

How were the winning numbers chosen? Decided?

C (10:02)

Each city came up with its own way to determine a winning number. And many of them landed on this idea that they would get the number from racing forms, daily racing forms from various racetracks across the country, because those numbers also changed all the time. And there was a calculation that was done to determine each digit of these winning three digit winning numbers.

A (10:28)

The calculation was made using an elaborate formula based on horse race winnings from racetracks. Those results wouldn't be tabulated until after Fannie's bets were closed. The so there was no way to cheat. So how would people find out if they'd won?

C (10:49)

I always say it's a little bit like a game of telephone, but it has to be accurate. So the numbers bosses would sign off on these winning numbers based on these calculations. And so the word would go out that, okay, it's official, these are the three winning digits for today. And the numbers bosses, employees would then make the calls to various bankers who would inform various bookies and they would inform their customers. And so the word would go out on the street, it would go out in a telephone call. You know, it really was word of mouth and it was really an incredible system when you think about it. But that's how it was done.

A (11:35)

Brigette remembers that when the winning numbers would come in each night, things could get stressful in the house. If someone won big, her mother would have to pay out.

C (11:46)

That was a big part of sort of the business. Luckily, it wasn't daily. She didn't get hit daily, but there were times when she got really. People won big. And so that was a whole process, you know, gathering that money to pay off, which was her policy to pay off the next day by noon. So that was also a big part of the business.

A (12:14)

We'll be right back to listen without ads. Join Criminal Plus. Thanks to Squarespace for their support. Making a website can be intimidating, especially because it's often the first thing people see about your Business. If you want to build a website that makes a great first impression on people, you don't need years of coding experience. You just need Squarespace. It's the all in one website platform made to help you stand out online. Squarespace has the tools you need to make your website look exactly how you want it to look, sell your services and get paid no matter what business you're in. You can choose from a library of templates designed by professionals, or if you don't want to scroll through all the template options. Squarespace's blueprint AI can build a website for you in just a couple of minutes based on a few prompts. It'll pull from different templates. To create the website you need, go to squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the offer Code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Bombas. If your sock drawer could use an upgrade, Bombus has a range of well designed socks like their sport socks, which are made with a cushioned sweat wicking design that also stops them from sliding down your foot while you're in motion. And Bombas has more than socks. They also make soft and breathable basics, including underwear and T shirts. This spring, I look forward to going on longer runs wearing my new Bombas run socks. They're soft and lightweight, made with a mesh knit that makes them breathable, and they're designed with cushioning in the heel and toe to protect your feet. Bombas also has a mission for every item you purchase, they say they donate an item of clothing to someone facing housing insecurity. They say they've made over 150 million donations and counting. You can go to bombas.com criminal and use code criminal for 20% off your first purchase. That's b-bas.com criminal code criminal@ checkout. Do you remember being a little kid and helping out with the business? What, what were some of the tasks that you were given?

C (14:45)

So I wanted something that I could do to contribute and so she decided that my job would be to call all the customers and give them that day's numbers. And she paid me $20 a week.

A (14:59)

That seems like an important job.

C (15:01)

It was great. And guess what? You know, the customers loved hearing from me because I was this child calling, hi, this is Fanny's daughter and I'm just letting you know Today's number is 697 and they say, oh thank you baby.

A (15:18)

Do you remember customers coming over?

C (15:22)

Oh, I vividly remember Customers coming over all the time. All the time. One of my favorites of her customers was a woman who had been a lady of the evening in her youth, and she had an extraordinary wardrobe of clothes from that life. And she liked to talk to me about fashion. And she knew fashion, she knew real fashion, she knew designers, et cetera. So I. I really learned all these things from my mom's customers that went above and beyond just seeing them, you know, engaged in transactions.

A (15:58)

Do you ever remember anyone sitting around the house and kind of talking with your mother and saying, well, I think maybe five, three, two this week. And what do you think about that? Or 478 or back and forth about the number that they wanted to play?

C (16:13)

Yes. So much of the reason that people like to come over and turn their numbers in directly is they wanted the social piece of it. You know, they wanted to be in conversation about the numbers. It really generated a kind of sort of like communal experience. So customers are like, what are you feeling is a good number? And I was thinking about this and, oh, I dreamed. I actually dreamed about fish. And so then a customer could say to my mother, fanny, what does fish play for? And what does that mean? That means that the customer's asking, what does the dream book say? The three digit equivalent is for fish. What is the dream book? You might ask, what are dream books? Yeah, what is the dream book? You know, the dream book was a publication, a little book that really was more like the bible for numbers players. And it essentially was encyclopedic. It really listed every person, place, or thing you could imagine as well as experience that someone could dream about, and I mean just about anything. And so again, as I was saying, these experiences or places or persons or things all had three digit sort of numbers assigned to them. And so that's how you figured out, again, what does fish play for? Well, the Dreambook says it plays for 4, 9, 7. I think because I dreamed it, I'm gonna play that. And there were many different versions of dream books. Dream books date back way back into the 19th century. And so the more popular ones in my household were two in particular, the Red Devil Dreambook and the Three Wise Men Dream book. And so a customer might have a preference for one over the other and say, well, Fanny, I don't know about that. I don't really know about what the three wise men says. Tell me what the red Devil says it plays for. And then the customer might say, okay, I'm feeling lucky. I'm going to put that number in today.

A (18:34)

Did Your mother also believe in the dream books and use that type of mystical numerology in her own life and around your house?

C (18:46)

My mom believed in luck and she believed in conjuring luck. And so she had these rituals that she followed there, I might add. There was a proliferation of sort of paraphernalia that you could purchase around the numbers business. There were shops designed to sell all these things to you. And one of them was candles, lucky candles, the kind that can burn for a week, the nice tall ones. And so my mom often had these candles burning in the household in strategic places. The idea was that once the candle burned down, there was actually a three digit number at the bottom. And there were lucky oils and there was incense that did the same thing. Once it burned down, there would be a three digit number at the bottom. And that's maybe a number to play. So, yes, in many ways, as a child, I found our home so magical. And I felt that she was at the center of that magic, that she herself was magical.

A (19:53)

Fanny wasn't just running the numbers, she played them. And she was lucky. In one especially large hit, she won enough money to put a down payment on a house. She wouldn't tell anyone how much she'd actually won. Brigette says that owning the house meant a lot. Her mother's policy was, feel free, feel welcome, be happy. And she wanted her children to feel proud.

C (20:20)

I went to school one day and my teacher said to me, you sure do have a lot of pairs of shoes. And it was true, I did. I didn't know how to answer her. I was concerned because the week before she had asked me, what does your father do? And I told her, he doesn't work. My father actually was disabled. So she naturally asked, well, what does your mother do? And I said, this time I was lying. I said, I don't know, because I knew she was in the numbers, but I knew I wasn't supposed to tell anyone that. So I suspect, looking back, that she was already looking at me and thinking, this little girl is really dressing well, this little black girl. And I think that prompted the questions. But I was naive. I didn't know that. I just knew that on this day she was telling me I had a lot of pairs of shoes. And I agreed. And then she really stunned me by saying, name every pair of shoes you have. Do not sit down until you do that. Go ahead. And I was so nervous. I thought it was a test and I didn't want to fail it. And I worked really hard, nervously, and named ten pairs of Shoes. I was being so diligent, and she said to me, 10 pairs of shoes. That's an awful lot. Again, I didn't know how to answer her. I sat down. The surprising thing for me was the next day she called me to her desk again. And this time she said, you did not tell me that you had a white pair, too. And I had forgotten to tell her about the white pair I was wearing that day. And I apologized. I didn't know what else to do. She dismissed me with a flip of her hand. But at that point, I thought, oh, boy, I'm in trouble, and I need to tell my mom because I've clearly done something wrong. And I told my mother that evening, and I can't even begin to describe the look on her face. I still remember it. She was furious. I thought she was angry at me, but she said, that is none of her damn business. Who does she think she is? She was so angry. And she told me, get in the car now. I, of course, thought we were going back to the school to confront my teacher, Ms. Miller. And I was really frightened. I did not want to do that. But that's not where we were going at all. My mom took me to Saks Fifth Avenue, and she took me to the children's shoe department. She pointed to a gorgeous pair of yellow patent leather shoes, and she said, those are pretty. She pulled out a $100 bill and paid for those shoes, and then told me, listen, you're gonna wear these shoes to school tomorrow, and you're gonna tell your teacher that you actually have 12 pairs of shoes. You hear me? And I did. And Ms. Miller never spoke to me again.

A (23:13)

Was it. Was it just accepted knowledge in your house that you didn't talk about your mother's business?

C (23:21)

We never talked about not talking about it. It was just understood. There were no conversations around it. It was clear. It was clear you don't talk about what happens inside of this household. And, of course, we understood the implication that we could get busted by the, you know, authorities, and that's not good. Someone could hear about it and try to rob us. Not good. So there was no need to work and sort of struggle with keeping the secret. It was natural and easy to keep that secret, and we all did.

A (23:57)

When did it become clear to you that your mother's business had become very successful?

C (24:06)

I don't think I processed it that way. For years. We lived well from my memory. It was my normal. And so I didn't think about my mom. Oh, she's successful. I thought she's doing. We're doing well at this. That's how I looked at it. And so that's how I always viewed it until I was an adult and began to see the toll it was taking.

A (24:36)

We'll be right back. Support for Criminal Comes from Groons in early spring, many of us start thinking about ways to feel lighter and more energized. If you're looking for a snack that supports energy and digestion, you might consider trying Groons. Groons say they support whole body health with one snack pack of gummies a day. They say they're not a multivitamin supplement or prebiotic. They're all of those things, but at a fraction of the price. Their products are vegan, nut free, gluten free, dairy free, and have no artificial colors or flavors. And they say it tastes great. Grunes say their ingredients are backed by over 35,000 research publications and their gummies come in a pack because you can't fit the amount of nutrients into one single gummy, like 6 grams of prebiotic fiber. That's like eating 2 cups of broccoli. But with Groons you get them in one easy snack pack. You can save up to 52% off with code Criminal at Grunes Co. That's Code Criminal at Gruns Code Foreign. Support for Criminal comes from Grow Therapy. If you've wanted to start therapy but you're not sure how, Grow Therapy is a simple, affordable and flexible way to do it. Grow makes it easy to find a therapist who fits you. They can connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US and they offer both virtual and in person sessions as well as nights and weekends. There are no subscriptions and no long term commitments. You just pay per session. You can get started in as little as two days and you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as zero depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com criminal today to get started. That's growtherapy.com criminal growththerapy.com criminal availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. In 1962, there was a massive raid at the Gotham Hotel, the hub of the African American numbers operation in Detroit. Police conducted a room by room search and confiscated numbers tapes, adding machines, hundreds of boxes of bet slips and 30 safes. And then one night in 1970, 200 FBI agents conducted raids all over the city of Detroit making arrests in 58 different locations. J. Edgar Hoover called it the largest gambling raid in history. Brijette was in elementary school.

C (27:39)

My mom never made it known that that was going on. And that's why I always call her an incredible domestic magician. The sleight of hand she had to use to make sure none of us were constantly stressed out by the possibility of these sort of busts happening. Now, she did do some practical things. She had a big safe that she kept, a combination safe that she kept in her closet. That's where she kept the money. That's where she kept the day's business. We had an incinerator in our basement. And she burned her tickets and proof of the business on a weekly basis. You know, she was in no way reckless. That was not my mom.

A (28:18)

Do you have any complicated feelings about the fact that it was a crime, what your mother was doing?

C (28:25)

I have no complicated feelings around that, because for me, it wasn't a crime. This is a country that put a lot of laws in place to keep black people down. Let's be clear and blunt about was very clear to me intuitively, and now literally, that there's a difference between a legitimate business and a criminal one. It's criminal because, you know, laws were put in place to say it shouldn't happen, but it was legitimate. And that was proven because the state decided all these states, Almost every state in this country now has a lottery. So obviously it was a legitimate business. It just happened to be illegal. Well, there are all kinds of laws that were put in place in this country that were not legitimate, that were not fair, but they were laws. So technically, you'd be breaking the law if you didn't do what you were supposed to. So that, to me, is never a complicated sort of question.

A (29:35)

What is the history of the lottery? It was legal and then illegal and then legal again.

C (29:41)

It turns out that the 13 colonies had lotteries, and they used those lotteries because they were cash poor and they needed them for capital improvements, like a precursor to the stock market. In fact, they proliferated these lotteries legal. And in fact, slaves could play these lotteries, too, and win. And one in particular did just that. A famous slave, Denmark Vesey, who went on to lead a slave revolt years later. But at the time, 1799, he bought his freedom from the proceeds of a lottery. He won fifteen hundred dollars. So that was incredible and extraordinary. However, that and other incidents like that really prompted the new government and these state governments to essentially ban lotteries and make Them illegal. It was too egalitarian. And so the answer was to just outlaw it. And that's what they did for like 100 years until the mid-60s. They decided that, you know, state officials decided that there was too much money being made in this underground lottery business, this numbers business that black folks were running and profiting from, and that they wanted that money, they wanted in.

A (31:17)

What was the role of the numbers in the black community.

C (31:22)

I mean, it's hard to overestimate how important the numbers were in the black community. But the big thing, besides the social piece, which is huge, also, it was a communal social experience, and that was important. But also those big numbers men were race men, and they believed that they should take their wonderful largesse and reinvest in the community. That was just what they did. And that was vital because discrimination and segregation had made it so that black folks had a lot of services that were not available to them. And numbers men stepped in to provide them something as important as providing a home loan for, you know, a black person or family that cannot get a traditional mortgage. Numbersmen would provide the loan money for that. Also, numbersmen started insurance companies, they started newspapers. They bought and owned and ran hotels where black folks could stay. You could not, as a black American, go to a Detroit hotel downtown and stay in it. In much of the 20th century in this country, you couldn't do it. And so numbersmen, one in particular, he basically ran a beautiful hotel in Detroit that was for African Americans. It was incredible.

A (32:56)

In 1972, the state of Michigan legalized the state lottery. The Michigan lottery was drawn every week rather than every day, like the numbers. So people played both. But in 1977, a new game was introduced. The daily. It happened every day. You could choose your numbers, you could get paid the next day, and the payout was 500 to 1, the same as Fanny's.

C (33:25)

She kept some of her loyal customers for a while, but then they started to peel off. And here's why. That state run lottery did have one distinct advantage. It had a lot of disadvantages. That worked for a while for my mom, you didn't have to pay taxes if you played with Fannie. You could play on credit and pay once a week with Fannie. So there were these things that were an advantage, but the big disadvantage ultimately made it impossible for her to compete, and that is that the state lottery was able to broadcast its winning numbers on the local TV show every evening. Local TV stations and people absolutely love to learn the winning numbers every night, publicly, at the same time. And so that's when my mother really started to try to figure out, what can I do? And she came up with something. She did. She decided, if you can't beat them, join them. And you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take those winning numbers that the lottery provides and make them the winning numbers for my informal lottery business. And it worked. It worked.

A (34:47)

The state lottery kept changing, and Fannie Davis kept changing. Her business right with was getting tougher to compete. She started holding poker games to help make up for lost revenue. But when Michigan introduced the lotto, the prizes were bigger than she could keep up with. Fanny Davis ran her numbers business for 30 years. She died in 1992. Brigette says she can still picture her mother seated at their dining room table, working.

C (35:20)

Of course, everyone thinks that her mother's beautiful, but mine really was. And I loved watching her work. You know, she was just there and she was doing her thing and I was just going around, you know, getting ready for school or having my sugar frosted flakes in the morning and just comforted by her presence and the sight of her doing her business. It was like, all's well in the world.

A (35:48)

The money Fanny earned put Brigette through college. It allowed her to buy a home of her own in Brooklyn. She says she plays the numbers now in the form of the legal lottery, almost every day. She usually plays 31 3, the area code for Detroit. But sometimes she plays 78 8, her mother's favorite. Can you do an impression of what it was like when your mother on the phone, when she would pick up the phone to take a number, what she would say? What was the interaction like?

C (36:39)

Oh, I love the sound of her taking numbers. You know, she'd be on the phone and she'd say, hi, Ms. Queenie, I'm calling to take your numbers. Are you ready? Okay, good. All right, I'm ready. Come on. 5, 4, 2, 4. Uh huh. 6, 9, 3, straight for 50 cents. Is this both races, Ms. Queenie? Detroit and Pontiac. Okay. 3, 8, 8, straight for a dollar. Uh huh. 4, 7, 5, straight for 50 cents. 1:10, box for a dollar. Hmm. Okay, I got it. All right, Ms. Queenie. Well, listen, do you have any more numbers? No. All right. Okay, I'll take that one more. 684 for 50 cents. Huh? And nine, seven, two, box for 20. Got it. All right, Ms. Queenie, you have a good day.

A (37:33)

Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Tsujiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. This episode was originally mixed by Rob Byers. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them@thisiscriminal.com where you can also find information about the book that Brijette Davis has written about her mother. It's called the World According to Fanny Davis. My Mother's Life in the Detroit Numbers. You can sign up for our newsletter@thisiscriminal.com newsletter. We hope you'll join our membership program Criminal+ now on Patreon. Don't forget to keep listening at the end of this episode to hear an excerpt of our latest episode of Criminal. Plus, if you want to hear even more, sign up for a free seven day trial at patreon.com criminal. It's the very best way to support our work. We're on Facebook at thisiscriminal and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube@YouTube.com criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great shows@podcast voxmedia.com I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. This is something that I can see myself doing so quickly, so I'm not going to call it a crime. Did you hear about the retiring pilot?

B (39:23)

No.

A (39:24)

A couple weeks ago there was a pilot, Iceland Air pilot who was retiring. It was his final flight and he was flying from Frankfurt back to Reykjavik. And on that route he happened to pass over his hometown in southern Iceland. And he decided for his final flight that he would take a full passenger jet on a very low flyover of his hometown.

B (39:51)

With passengers?

A (39:52)

With passengers?

C (39:53)

No.

A (39:53)

And the town thought that they were under attack because there was a passenger jet flying incredibly low over. Over this little town. He did it. He landed the plane. It didn't go over so well.

B (40:08)

Oh my God.

A (40:09)

But I think if there's a way to go out, I absolutely. What a wonderful thing.

B (40:13)

Can you imagine just looking out your window and seeing a low, a huge plane low? You would think it was the apocalypse. You think it was falling out of the sky.

A (40:24)

In video footage of the flight shared by the Iceland monitor, the aircraft can be seen flying directly over houses and other buildings. With the outlet noting the aircraft appeared to be at an altitude of 328ft.

B (40:38)

No,

A (40:41)

isn't that size of the way. And then he just. Just a little detour to say goodbye. I think it's wonderful.

B (40:48)

I mean that Was your birthday dream, right? Was to, like, tip your wing?

A (40:52)

Yeah. My dream's always been, I still don't have my pilot's license. I've gotta do it. My dream has always been to fly over our house and have Sarah on the front lawn and dip my wings to her as I fly past. I've gotta make that happen.

B (41:08)

Did you hear about the adjunct professor at College of Charleston?

A (41:11)

No.

B (41:12)

He was busted by the police for possession of almost $3,000 of petrified wood samples.

A (41:21)

What is it about petrified wood?

B (41:22)

And they found it in a box that said, quote, definitely not stolen mineral samples.

A (41:29)

People, am I missing it about petrified wood?

B (41:32)

Do you think that he heard our episode Triassic Park?

A (41:38)

I don't.

B (41:39)

I mean, he was charged with breach of trust and grand larceny. He also had some other things he wasn't supposed to have, like a rare shark skeleton or. No, a jawbone, fish jaw fossil, 3D printed whale skull. The jaw was worth more than $4,000 and is one of the only known species in existence.

A (41:57)

Yeah. What do you do with petrified wood?

B (42:00)

Well, as I recall, when we did our live show at the Bell House a long time ago, when we did this petrified wood story, we had some pieces of petrified wood which we gave to some members of the audience.

A (42:09)

This is what my father brought.

B (42:11)

I mean, that's a real interactive. Talk about the good old days. Right.

A (42:14)

We were handing out favors at the live shows.

B (42:17)

Treats.

A (42:18)

I know.

B (42:18)

I remember we discussed whether I think it was on Halloween. And we discussed. I suggested we could have a pumpkin on the corner of the stage. And you said, absolutely not. Phoebe hates pumpkin. Halloween aesthetics. What have you been enjoying lately?

A (42:33)

Something I've been enjoying lately. And I don't know if I have talked about this before, but there is a show I recently subscribed to, Britbox. Wow. I know. But I did this really great thing. We were looking for, like, a police procedural. I can never. Sarah and I can never find a show to watch together. We can never finish a show together. So we were trying. So I looked up best British police procedurals, and there was a show called Line of Duty that came up, which is very popular in Britain. And so you get on Britbox. That's not why we got Britbox. We got Britbox because there's a show called Gardener's World, which is a really wonderful, calm show. Monty Don, I think I've talked about it. And he just takes you through the garden. He tells you how to garden. It's been on for 25 years. It's one of the most popular shows in Britain. We watched it a lot with my mother. Sarah watched a lot with my mother. And it's kind of garden spring season. And she said, I would love to watch an episode of Gardener's World. And I said we could get Britbox. And the way that sometimes. Does it ever happen to you when you are going to subscribe to something new that the 1099 feels like this is the most reckless. Are you sure we're going to do this? That's what happened. But we did it. And then I said, let's get our money's worth found. Line of duty. I canceled it. Here's another pro tip. I said, we only did one month. I'm gonna cancel the next day. Canceled, Tried to cancel the next day. They offered me three months at 99 cents.

B (44:07)

Wow.

A (44:09)

I took it. But so in this Brit box, I was looking around and there's another show that I've seen a few times. It's called Escape to the Country. Do you know about this show? Why are you laughing?

B (44:20)

No, I don't know about this one.

A (44:22)

What's so funny about this one? Nothing.

B (44:23)

Please.

A (44:25)

It's really wonderful. It's at my pace. People usually living in London or other parts go and look for a country house. So they're gonna leave their house and they're gonna escape to the country and they're shown. Why are you laughing, Lauren, please. Why? Am I doing some accent or something?

B (44:46)

No, not at all. Please.

A (44:47)

So they. And so they're shown these three country houses in parts, different parts of. Of England. And you learn about the county that they're moving to and you learn about the wonderful things that are there in the history. And then you go on these houses, you see these houses and it is the most relaxing show. It's called Escape to the Country. That's my number. I'm gonna just video off because. Why? Because I don't want to see her laughing anymore.

B (45:15)

No, that sounds great. I would love to have that Britbox login, please. I'll swap you a Hulu login.

A (45:22)

I already have it.

B (45:24)

Well, I have been watching something on Criterion channel, which is one that I pay for. And they have a new category that you might enjoy called Corporate Thrillers. We're talking Primal Fear, Devil's Advocate, the Firm, Michael Clayton, the International. And then the one I watched, which I had never seen before was Wall street with Charlie Sheen, Michael Douglas, James Spader, Martin Sheen, who really has a really heart wrenching performance. And I had never seen this movie. And it. It felt like this. The high 80s aesthetic was a lot of fun. And then the movie ends on a very peculiar note. And I just feel like the movie would never be made the way it was. It would never be made this way today. But that was a really fun sort of time capsule on Criterion, which I'm paying who knows how much a month for.

A (46:16)

I know, I know. Second thing I've been enjoying lately, and have I recommended this before? Johnny Pops?

B (46:24)

Yes. But I would like to hear about it again because whenever I see them in the store, I think about this recommendation. So, Allison, if you're listening, this is another way. I hear Phoebe's voice in my head. I'm at Harris Teeter. I see Johnny Pops. I think about her talking about Johnny Pop.

A (46:39)

Well, should I not recommend it?

B (46:40)

No, you should. It's a good recommendation.

A (46:42)

It's a good recommendation. So I get. We get the Johnny Pops that are seven different colors. Oh, you know, it's different flavors. And the bottom two are pretty bad. It's a grape and a blue. Don't say, but it's such a great thing yesterday. I'm running a race this weekend and it's a going to be very hot here, like 95, pretty wild. And it's very hilly. And so I was training and I was trying to run on hills because I actually have been using your treadm. Treadmill, Lauren, often.

B (47:11)

Because I've been good that someone is using it.

A (47:13)

Yeah, I really have been. I ran 10 miles on your treadmill the other day. And you thought that that was like. That was an insane person.

B (47:21)

I mean, talk about a depression. Move. Just go outside.

A (47:24)

I. I needed it to be more control anyway. But I had this very long run and it was very hilly and it was very hot. And I came home and I had a Johnny Pop. And it was the best treat you could ever imagine. So I've done it before, but I'm saying again, Johnny Pop, have you ever

B (47:40)

heard of this ice cream sandwich called Fat Boy?

A (47:44)

Yeah, I like it whenever.

B (47:45)

It's just like a very classic ice cream sandwich with the funniest name and the cutest box. Fat Boy. Second thing I've been enjoying lately is I already foreshadowed it. But my very favorite show in the whole world stars Lisa Kudrow on HBO. The first season was in 2005. Second season, 2014. And now the third season is with us right now, 2026. Lisa Kudrow in the Comeback.

A (48:11)

Yeah, I mean, I've been. I've been watching it.

B (48:13)

It is Pretty good.

A (48:14)

It's pretty.

C (48:15)

It is.

A (48:15)

It's Curb youb Enthusiasm. Yes. Yeah, it's very, very, very funny. I'm just watching the first season.

B (48:21)

I would say it's more dry and more understated and more subtle than Curb youb Enthusiasm or than anything in that genre. It is so. It is so subtle.

A (48:31)

I have. I have really been enjoying it.

B (48:33)

And she is just a really undervalued comedic actress. And it's wonderful to see her after all these years.

A (48:41)

The third thing I've been enjoying lately, it's also. It's a. It's a. The third thing I've. I was just thinking, should I. Should I try to talk about the academic journals that I've been reading or the obscure French films on Criterion? But I'm not going to. I'm going to talk to you about ice water with a splash of fruit juice.

B (49:04)

Okay, Just. We're talking about. Not seltzer.

A (49:07)

Well, I'm gonna tell you. Well, I don't want. Well, you're blowing it for me lately, Lauren, with this Pfaffs conversation. But last night, I have one seltzer every morning. And I have one seltzer every night after dinner. Always two seltzers a day. Two cans a day. And last night I opened the refrigerator and there was no seltzer. Forgive me, there was one seltzer, which meant that if I had it last night, I wouldn't have any seltzer this morning. And I made the decision. I took it. I had it last night knowing that this was going to cause a problem. And I woke up this morning and I thought, phoebe, what the. I mean, it was really like the shakes, you know, like, what are you gonna do? And I put some ice in a Mason jar. I'm doing it right now. This is my second. Put some ice in a little Mason jar with water and a tiny spoon. Splash of real grapefruit juice. Fantastic. I had a long interview this morning. I had like an hour and 45 minute long interview and I had this little treat and I just was delighted by it. And I think this could be the way that I might cut down on my seltzer.

B (50:09)

What if you made fruit juice ice cubes?

A (50:13)

Great idea.

B (50:14)

That would be such a treat. And it would look good.

A (50:15)

That's a great idea. That is a great idea.

B (50:17)

It is a great idea.

A (50:18)

You could even put little rosemary or basil in with little rose petals. Rosemary and grapefruit would be good together.

B (50:26)

Yes, it would be good.

A (50:28)

So that's my number three. And.

B (50:29)

Yeah, my number three. This is a really serious recommendation. Trash can buckles. Have you ever seen this? If you live in a suburban area as we do, what you say.

A (50:42)

You talked to me about this. I didn't know what you were talking about. I didn't follow up.

B (50:45)

The pleasure. It cost $12 for two of them. And the pleasure that I've gotten from that $12. Because for years I've been trying to weigh down the lid of my trash can with heavy. Whatever heavy objects are available. But then you go out to take your trash out and you have to put the trash down and move the heavy thing and open it because we have so many raccoons and who knows, like animals get into the trash so you can buy these little nylon buckles to keep your trash can closed. The brand I got is called Pot. Potto P A H T T O.

A (51:18)

That's a good idea.

B (51:19)

Oh, it says bear proof Trash Bin lid lock. I have to say, I can imagine a bear could get in there still, but a little tiny raccoon cannot. That's my number three. It's given me enormous pleasure. I've been deeply enjoying it.

A (51:35)

Well, Lauren, we have gone around the bend today.

B (51:40)

Yes, please send your idea for the next Criminal plus Reading Club.

A (51:45)

Yes, you can always. You can send it. You can Patreon. Or you. You know, you could. If you're not on Patreon, you can write to us at. Hello, this is criminal.com 833-822-7850. Let us know with your complaints or suggestions or we'll. We'll take anything. Lauren, what's next? You and I have a meeting in 17 minutes. Just enough time for me to pop downstairs and get a Johnny Pop. Bye.

C (52:16)

Bye.

A (52:16)

Bye,

C (52:32)

Sam.