All the Time in the World

Summary

Criminal – "All the Time in the World"

Original Air Date: June 26, 2026
Host: Phoebe Judge
Guest Experts: Dr. Daniel Wescott, Grady Early, Dr. Kate Spradley, Elaine Walker, Lauren Meckle

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Episode Overview

This episode of Criminal centers on the Forensic Anthropology Center at Texas State University—one of the few places in the world where human bodies are donated, placed outdoors, and allowed to decompose for scientific research. Host Phoebe Judge explores the science of human decomposition, the motivations of those who choose to donate their bodies, and the powerful insights such studies provide for criminal investigations. Through evocative field reporting and conversations with anthropologists, donors, and family members, the episode reflects on death, our fear of it, and how science can turn our remains into lasting tools for understanding and justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction to the Facility

• Setting the Scene: Phoebe visits a "nondescript" facility outside San Marcos, Texas, marked only by a small sign with a vulture and a skull ([02:04]).
• Purpose and Significance:
  • Dr. Daniel Wescott explains the crucial role of such facilities:

    "While you would think that we would know a lot about how bodies decompose, it actually turns out that we really know very little about what's going on." ([02:36])

  • Bodies are placed in various conditions—open ground, trunks, under tarps, buried in shallow graves—to simulate real-world scenarios and aid research ([02:47]).

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The Process of Decomposition

• Scientific Walkthrough: Dr. Wescott details the stages after death—rigor mortis, bacterial takeover, marbling, bloat, purge fluids, and eventual skeletonization ([10:47]–[12:36]).
  • Quote:

    "You get what's called a bloat stage. So they'll actually kind of puff up." – Dr. Daniel Wescott ([11:13])

• Environmental Impact: Decomposition changes the environment, supporting plant growth:
  • Phoebe remarks,

    "Purge fluid is so nutrient-rich that it acts like a super fertilizer...surrounded by bunches of these tall, healthy wildflowers. The flowers are back." ([18:13])

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Who Donates and Why

• Meet the Donors:

  • Grady Early (retired professor; living donor):

    "Everyone should be useful in life, and if you can be useful after death as well, so much the better." ([04:40])

    • He was inspired to join after hearing his mother say, “That sounds like a wonderful idea. Sign me up.” ([06:03])
    • Prefers “helping bones tell their story” over simply “wasting real estate.”
  • Elaine Walker (retired private investigator):

    "I kind of see it as an extension of being an investigator." ([26:59])

    • Chooses donation for the investigative value, and out of practicality:

      “At my age, some of my organs are...a little on the old side.” ([27:42])

    • Her husband, like many spouses, is "so terrified of death, he won't discuss it." ([28:44])
  • Dr. Kate Spradley (anthropologist, also donor):

    "I've looked at so many skeletons. I built my career on looking at skeletons, so I think it's only right that I give back." ([22:55])

• Requests & Rituals:

  • Donors can specify details—clothes, jewelry, even placement under specific trees or with objects, such as a cell phone ([25:50]).
  • Many donors see their final act as a continuation of a life spent teaching or investigating ([26:46]).

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On-Site Observations & Emotional Reactions

• The Field Tour:

  • Phoebe and the team tour the decomposition site, describing bodies at various stages—scattered bones, bodies in bloat, wildflowers growing from the nutrient-rich soil ([14:38]–[18:13]).
  • Notable quote as they approach newly placed bodies:

    "His stomach was so bloated that it almost touched the top of the cage… This is wild stuff. I don't think many people in their lives see stuff like this." – Phoebe Judge ([16:41]–[16:49])

• Sensory Details:

  • Visitors must wear protective booties, not to "protect the scene" as assumed, but to avoid bringing decomp fluid into the car ([13:46]–[14:08]).

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Research and Law Enforcement Applications

• Cases & Technology:

  • The facility helps develop forensic evidence for real-world cases—estimating time of death, identifying remains.
  • Experiments with drones and infrared cameras to detect soil changes caused by decomposition, aiding searches for clandestine graves ([18:33]).
  • Police dogs are exposed to real decomposing bodies for more effective search and rescue training ([18:33]).

• Collaboration and Growth:

  • Texas State collaborates nationwide to study regional differences; example given of three facilities placing bodies on the same day for comparative research ([19:40]).

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The Aftermath: Processing and Legacy

• From Field to Lab:
  • Skeletal processing involves simmering, cleaning, and assembling bones—a process as intimate as it is scientific ([23:24]–[24:31]).
  • Donors’ bones often become invaluable teaching specimens. One donor, Grady Early, hopes "to have my skeleton articulated and hung up somewhere in the facility so I can keep my eye on what's going on" ([06:58]).
• Contact and Curiosity:
  • Lauren Meckle describes frequent public interest in donating, with many specifically interested in being part of the “vulture study,” which some equate to a sky burial ([25:10]–[25:38]).

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Natural Spaces, Peace, and Philosophy

• A Place of Peace:

  • Dr. Spradley and Phoebe describe the field as surprisingly peaceful and natural ([23:13]–[23:20]).
  • Donors and staff reflect on returning to the earth—death as not an end, but a form of giving back.

• Confronting Fear of Death:

  • The episode juxtaposes individuals’ pragmatic acceptance of mortality with the deep discomfort and fear their relatives often exhibit ([03:10], [28:44]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Usefulness after Death:

  "Which would you rather do? Wind up in a box in the ground, just wasting real estate, or be in a box in the lab and at least potentially useful to a researcher sometime in future?"
  — Grady Early ([04:40])

• On Cultural Attitudes toward Death:

  "As a culture… we actually are kind of scared of death. …we embalm bodies so that they don't decompose as fast. And we don't want to see that process going on…"
  — Dr. Daniel Wescott ([03:10])

• On the Experience of Visiting the Facility:

  "I don't think many people in their lives see stuff like this."
  — Phoebe Judge ([16:49])

• On Returning to the Earth:

  "It’s very natural. They just return to the earth."
  — Dr. Kate Spradley ([22:50])

• On Family Reactions:

  "My husband isn’t very excited about it, but he respects that that’s what I want to do. … He’s so terrified of death, he won’t discuss it."
  — Elaine Walker ([28:33]–[28:44])

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Important Segments by Timestamp

• [02:04]–[03:57]: Arrival at the facility; introduction to its work and scale.
• [10:47]–[12:36]: Detailed, accessible explanation of the stages of decomposition.
• [14:38]–[18:13]: Field observations; sensory and emotional reactions to the realities of decomposition.
• [18:33]–[19:40]: Technologies in search and identification; inter-facility collaboration.
• [22:03]–[23:20]: Dr. Spradley’s perspective as both scientist and donor—empathy and legacy.
• [25:10]–[26:46]: Lauren Meckle discusses donor requests, the vulture study, and what draws people to this kind of donation.
• [26:59]–[29:06]: Elaine Walker discusses her investigative motivation, family dynamics, and cultural fears.

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Closing Reflection

The episode closes in a tranquil part of Freeman Ranch among the birds, as Phoebe and Dr. Wescott contemplate the body of a donor resting in the shade—a person whose final act is to help others, even after death. The episode weaves science, philosophy, and personal narrative, inviting listeners to consider mortality not as something to fear, but as a last opportunity for generative change and understanding.

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For more rich stories about crime, justice, and the many gray areas in between, find Criminal on all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

Support for Criminal comes from Squarespace. If you're a business owner, you know that it matters how you present your business online. Squarespace has the tools you need to customize your website and advertise all the kinds of services you provide. Plus, you can choose the colors and fonts you like. Go to squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Fetch pet insurance. Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US Gets hit with a vet bill over a thousand dollars. Fetch pet insurance can help. Fetch is a complete pet insurance for dogs and cats. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills. You can use Fetch for any vet in the US and Canada. All vets are in network. Go to fetchpet.comsave right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.comsave this week, we wanted to share one of our very favorite episodes. We released it back in 2017, and people still write to us about it all the time. And I still think about the day we recorded it. What is that you're holding?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

This is a mandible, the jawbone.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh,

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

let's see.

[Phoebe Judge]

And that skull is in half.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah, this person was autopsied. This is an autopsy cut.

[Phoebe Judge]

Interesting.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

So that they can examine the brain.

[Phoebe Judge]

There's a little bag here that says hands and feet. Do those usually get separated?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Because it's just there, lots of little small bones. So we put them in a separate bag just so that they don't get scattered out throughout the box. It's easier to keep them together.

[Phoebe Judge]

This is Dr. Daniel Wescott, the director of the Forensic Anthropology center at Texas State University in San Marcos, Texas, about 30 miles from Austin. We met with him in a nondescript building, a warehouse really, so plain. We drove right past it twice. But when you get out of the car and walk to the door, you see a small paper sign with a vulture and a skull and you know you found it. There are very few places in the world that do what they do here.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

While you would think that we would know a lot about how bodies decompose, it actually turns out that we really know very little about what's going on. So the work that's done here is pretty vital to that.

[Phoebe Judge]

At Dr. Westcott's center, they deliberately set out human bodies to decompose in nature. Most of the bodies are lying on the ground face up with their arms at their sides. But researchers also place bodies in Trunks of cars, wrap them in tarps and bury them in shallow graves.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

As a culture, in some ways, we actually are kind of scared of death. And, you know, we embalmed bodies so that they don't decompose as fast. And we don't want to see that process going on, but that process does go on, and we need to be able to understand how it works.

[Phoebe Judge]

How big is the facility and how many bodies are here?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

The facility is 26 acres and it sits on a 4200 acre ranch. And we get about 70 donations a year. So. And then the bodies are usually left to decompose for about six months to several years, depending on the research protocol. And then the skeletons come back here. And so we add about 70 skeletons per year to the collection.

[Phoebe Judge]

So if you had to guess how many bodies are in some state of decomposition here right now, do you know?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Probably about 60.

[Phoebe Judge]

The bodies are donated. They're called gifted bodies. And the people who plan to donate themselves to the research when they die are called living donors.

[Grady Early]

You know, if they want to do something like put me in the trunk of a car to see what happens there, or under a tarp or a slab of concrete, I got no problem with that.

[Phoebe Judge]

This is Grady Early, a retired computer science professor who decided long ago that he wanted his body to go to the Forensic Anthropology Center. Why did you decide to become a donor?

[Grady Early]

I think that everyone should be useful in life, and if you can be useful after death as well, so much the better. After all, which would you rather do? Wind up in a box in the ground, just wasting real estate, or be in a box in the lab and at least potentially useful to a researcher sometime in future?

[Phoebe Judge]

Grady early remembers when the facility was getting established more than 10 years ago, and the university was struggling to find the right location. They needed enough space, but they also needed a place that wouldn't freak people out.

[Grady Early]

We looked at a site out at the airport. Some of the neighbors didn't like the idea, and they said, well, that's going to attract vultures, so we'll have birds interfering with the aircraft over behind the outlet mall. And there were some people that were unhappy with that idea. There's always nimbys around.

[Phoebe Judge]

He's given money to the facility and become fascinated by what he describes as, quote, helping bones tell their story. When his body eventually becomes part of the research, he'll be joining his mother. She's already there.

[Grady Early]

It was an astonishing thing, although in retrospect, I suppose it shouldn't have been. When I told my mother what I was planning on doing. She, being a fairly practical woman, said, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Sign me up. So I did.

[Phoebe Judge]

She died at 102. Grady says he doesn't really care what happens to him when he goes into the field. So some bodies are placed in the open with the vultures and coyotes, and some are protected by long, low cages. Some are clothed and some aren't. It all depends on the nature of the experiment. It's odd to think that if all goes as planned, Grady early will one day return to the very building where he sat and talked to us, packed in cardboard with the bones of his hands and feet in a small paper bag.

[Grady Early]

What I would really like to do is have my skeleton articulated and hung up somewhere in the facility so I can keep my eye on what's going on.

[Phoebe Judge]

In his work at Texas state, Dr. Wescott is following in the footsteps of his professor, the biggest name in this field, Dr. Bill Bass. Dr. Bass opened the University of Tennessee Anthropological research facility in 1981. It was the first of these so called body forms, although we learned no scientists call them that. And he pioneered the idea that we needed a death database if too much time has passed. When law enforcement encounters a body, they have no way to tell when the person died, much less who they were or what happened. And the only way to answer these questions is to put a body outside and and watch it decompose. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. We'll be right back to listen without ads. Join Criminal plus.

[Grady Early]

Foreign.

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

And so as they do, they start to produce gases. And these gases initially will just kind of work their way through the arteries and veins, stuff like that, and you get what's called marbling. And then it also then the next kind of step to this is that that gas starts to build up and causes the bodies to go through what's called a bloat stage. So they'll actually kind of puff up.

[Phoebe Judge]

How long after death does that happen?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

It depends on the time of year, but it can range from three or four days to a few weeks. Usually here, probably within about five days they're going into bloat once that happens. So then the other thing that's happening is that you're also getting flies that are attracted to the body and those flies are laying eggs and they tend to lay eggs in natural orifices. So they like the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, stuff like that. And then they. So those maggots will hatch and there again depends on the species and the temperature depends on how long it takes, but usually a few days to a week or so and they start feeding on the body as well. So you've got that process going on and then you've got the internal organs are decomposing and so those internal organs are kind of liquefying. And with the gas that's building up, that liquid gets pushed out, and that's what we call the purge phase. So you get what's called purge fluid. And so it's just a dark fluid?

[Elaine Walker]

Dark.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Judge]

What is it? It's not blood. What does it mean?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

No, it's just a combination of all the internal organs that have decomposed.

[Phoebe Judge]

This is a big place.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

It is a big place. All right, so here we turn between the two. First two telephones.

[Phoebe Judge]

The bodies are placed on Freeman Ranch, which sits off a small highway just a few miles from the lab. Once you pass through the gates, you see what I only imagine you might see on any number of ranches in Texas. Cactus, tall green grass, and cows. We just kept driving down a dirt road, taking a left or right whenever we were told to, and then we arrived. There you go. The only difference between this part of the ranch and any other was the giant fence and locked gate.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

So our first stop will be at the shed there to put on booties.

[Grady Early]

Okay.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

And in reality, what the booties are for is so that in case you actually step in something, you don't drag it back to your car.

[Phoebe Judge]

Are you. Wow. Are you kidding?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

That's exactly why everybody thinks it's so that it's like protecting the scene, but it's actually so that you don't drag home decomp fluid on your shoes, the

[Phoebe Judge]

purge fluid right into the back into the minivan.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Right. All right, let's see. We'll start this way. So typically, the way that this works is the way the bodies are placed depends on what research protocol they're being used in. But typically they're left uncaged on the surface, caged on the surface, buried, or wrapped in something. So this is one that's left on the surface.

[Phoebe Judge]

Only a few feet from the gate sits the first body. It was hard to pick out at first because of the tall grass around it.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

And this individual was originally clothed. And then the scattering is from the different scavengers that have come.

[Phoebe Judge]

So we can see a pair of sneakers and a pair of pants and a sock. But then the bones are all kind of broken apart.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah, they're kind of pulled apart at different places.

[Phoebe Judge]

What animal did this?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Well, mostly it started out with vultures, and then probably you've had some raccoons and other things come since then, but most of this is vulture activity.

[Phoebe Judge]

I had no idea what to expect when we walked into that field. I was nervous about a lot of things. Wondering whether I'd be able to get these images out of my head that night when I went to sleep, Trying to figure out how I'd carry on an interview while not breathing through my nose, Regretting not bringing a change of clothes. But this actually seemed okay. That first body hadn't been that bad. And then we turned a corner.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

All right, so the area that we're getting ready.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, look at this.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

The area we're getting ready to pass is actually. This right here is a researcher, actually, from New York that's here. So she's got bodies on the surface and bodies that are buried.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, this is really something. So there was a field of bodies under cages. And unlike what we had just seen, these bodies seemed kind of new. All were unclothed. I could see one man in a cage out of my right eye. His stomach was so bloated that it almost touched the top of the cage. And his limbs were spread out to the sides. His skin was a mix of black and brown and purple splotches. I was trying to stay back, but Dr. Westcott went straight for him.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

You can see the maggot's pretty active.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

At this stage. And then. So this person has gone through bloat. You guys all right?

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah, but this is wild stuff. This is wild stuff. I don't think many people in their lives see stuff like this.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

So you can see I was talking about the skin kind of becomes really dark associated with the sulfuric gas that's produced by the bacteria and stuff. And then you get the active maggot masses going on.

[Phoebe Judge]

He kept drawing our attention to things that none of us actually wanted to see up close. So we were trying to stay with him, but also just trying to keep our eyes straight ahead. It was hard to know what to do. And it was hot over 90 degrees. And then Dr. Westcott took us to a row of bodies under cages and. Which seem to be showing a progression

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

going through time, in a sense. And you can see that they've gone through bloat. They're actually starting. And you can see they're starting to dry out.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yep. So this is. We're kind of going through the process here, Walking down the line.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah. So you can see these are starting to get skeletonized.

[Phoebe Judge]

How long have these guys been out here, do you think?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Well, these have been out here probably a little over a year. But you can see now you can't even see the cadaver decomposition. As a matter of fact, you can barely see the body anymore because of all that vegetation.

[Phoebe Judge]

Around it, purge fluid is so nutrient rich that it acts like a super fertilizer. And so bodies in the final stages of decomposition are surrounded by bunches of these tall, healthy wildflowers. The flowers are back.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

The flowers are back, yeah.

[Phoebe Judge]

Dr. Westcott is working on a new project that uses drones and infrared cameras to detect how much organic material is in the soil. If law enforcement is trying to locate a missing person in a huge area, 5,000 acres, they can use the drone technology to narrow things down, looking for spots with a lot of organic material. They're also working with police dogs. Most cadaver dogs are trained with small tissue samples, but it turns out the dogs don't always know how to react when they encounter a whole body. So police bring their dogs to the ranch to get used to finding the real thing. These different experiments are spread around the ranch, and Texas State collaborates with other facilities. Dr. Westcott showed us an experiment where three different centers across the country placed a bomb body on the exact same day to compare regional differences. So the body that we're looking at right there seems to me to be rather new.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah. This individual was probably placed yesterday.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, that's a brand new body.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yes.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, isn't that something? We'll be right back. Support for Criminal comes from Bombas. If your sock drawer could use an upgrade, Bombas has a range of well designed socks like their sport socks, which are made with a cushioned sweat wicking design that also stops them from sliding down your foot while you're in motion. And Bombas has more than socks. They also make soft and breathable basics, including underwear and T shirts. This spring, I look forward to going on longer runs wearing my new Bombas run socks. They're soft and lightweight, made with a mesh knit that makes them breathable. And they're designed with cushioning in the heel and toe to protect your feet. Bombas also has a mission. For every item you purchase, they say they donate an item of clothing to someone facing housing insecurity. They say they've made over 150 million donations and counting. You can go to bombas.com criminal and use code criminal for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M-S.com criminal codecriminal at checkout.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

We've all been there. You pop into the shop for five minutes and all of a sudden you've forgotten where you parked.

[Grady Early]

Car.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Car. Unfortunately, that lost feeling is what it's like trying to manage your policy with other insurers here. Car. Come out, come out, wherever you are. Please. With Geico, you can use the app to easily manage all your policies in one place.

[Phoebe Judge]

Did this parking lot have a waterfall?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

I think you've wandered too far, mate. It feels good to find what you're looking for. It feels good To Geico, our last

[Phoebe Judge]

stop was a clearing with three shallow graves. On the day we visited, they were in the process of excavating the skeletons. The excavation was being done by more than 20 students, all women. A lot of this work is done by women. Dr. Westcott is the only male director in the country, and almost all of his colleagues and his graduate students are women. Dr. Kate Spradley was in charge of the excavation.

[Dr. Kate Spradley]

It's interesting, I think, to do this kind of work, to look at all of these dead bodies, basically, and all of these human remains in the lab. I see a skeleton. I see a task at hand. I see a job that I have to do, particularly with the forensic cases that come in. We have a job to help identify those. So going in there, analyzing the skeleton, that's what we do. For me, it's different when I walk out to the forensic anthropology research facility where people donate their bodies. Because here, when I see remains, I see people who donate their bodies. This was their last wish. This is what they wanted to do. So for me, it's very nice coming out here, seeing them in their final resting place. And it's very natural. They just return to the earth.

[Phoebe Judge]

Are you a donor?

[Dr. Kate Spradley]

I am a donor.

[Phoebe Judge]

Are other members of your family?

[Dr. Kate Spradley]

No. Nobody else wants to do this but me. My husband is pretty uneasy about it, but I've looked at so many skeletons. I built my career on looking at skeletons, so I think it's only right that I give back.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Just listen to the birds.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah. It's incredibly peaceful.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah, it's a beautiful place to be.

[Phoebe Judge]

On our way out, we made one last stop, the same stop that all the bodies make before they leave the ranch. The processing lab. What does the kettle do?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

It just. It just simmers them for a little bit. It loosens up all the soft tissue. Yes. They really are just giant soup kettles. But then what's the.

[Phoebe Judge]

The crock pot for?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Small hands and feet and stuff like that and small bones. A lot of times it's easier to finish them off in there and then. So they're cooked in here, and then they're brought over here and they scrub them all down.

[Phoebe Judge]

What are these little guys down here?

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Tips of your fingers.

[Phoebe Judge]

That's a fingertip.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yep. And these are all toes. And you can see the Little teeny. And then these little things right there, these are actually extras. They're not even included in the 206.

[Phoebe Judge]

It looks like wood. This bone almost looks like wood.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

Yeah. It takes on the color of the soil.

[Phoebe Judge]

We saw two complete skeletons laid on metal gurneys and organized anatomically. It's amazing to see how fragile our ribs are. We were very lucky to be permitted to visit, but normally only law enforcement and researchers are allowed in. Even if you decide to donate your body, you'll never be able to see this place while you're alive. But people do ask.

[Lauren Meckle]

Well, usually when someone calls, they say something along the lines of, I'm interested in donating my body to science. And I hear that you take bodies.

[Phoebe Judge]

If you call for information, you'll speak with Lauren Meckle.

[Lauren Meckle]

And so I let them know about the Forensic Anthropology center and how their body can help identify missing persons. And they usually get very excited about that, and they ask about some of the research projects that we're doing, specifically about the vulture studies. People are really interested in vulture consumption of human remains.

[Phoebe Judge]

Like, they want to be part of that study, or they do not want to be part of that study.

[Lauren Meckle]

Many people actually are very interested in being part of that study. They see it as a sky burial. So it's something that seems peaceful.

[Phoebe Judge]

I suppose you can actually make requests, and they'll try to honor them. You can ask to wear a certain item of clothing or a piece of jewelry. You can ask to be placed under a tree. One man asked to be placed with a cell phone, and they did it. People also called to ask about the status of a friend or family member. So people will say, I'm just wondering if they're all decomposed now and they're back inside. Yes, I think I would. That's the question. I would want to know, too, if someone was. If you had got them off the ground and back in the box.

[Elaine Walker]

Yes.

[Lauren Meckle]

And usually people are surprised by how long it takes, too, because sometimes it can be six months. If we're doing a study where someone dropped in a tarp, for instance, and they skeletonized really quickly, and then we can pick them up really fairly soon after their death. But for the most part, they stay out there for about two years.

[Phoebe Judge]

Many of the donors have spent their life in education and see this as a way to continue teaching after they've died. And many work in law enforcement and have seen the value of the research firsthand.

[Elaine Walker]

I kind of see it as an extension of being an investigator.

[Phoebe Judge]

Elaine Walker is a retired Private investigator. And last year she made the decision to donate her body to the Forensic Investigation Research Station in Colorado. How do you like retired life?

[Elaine Walker]

It's the best job I've ever had.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, good.

[Elaine Walker]

I loved my job, but this is the best job I've ever had.

[Phoebe Judge]

May I ask how old you are?

[Elaine Walker]

67.

[Phoebe Judge]

You're 67. But why not donate your body to science in another way, like an organ donor? Is there something about the. I guess that there's no investigative quality when you donate your liver?

[Elaine Walker]

Well, no, but I am an organ donor. However, at my age, some of my organs are, you know, wouldn't really work out in somebody else's body. They're a little on the old side.

[Phoebe Judge]

How do you imagine the body farm? Peaceful. Have you seen pictures?

[Elaine Walker]

No, I haven't seen pictures. I would imagine it's peaceful. It is out, away from civilization. And I imagine that there are just bodies laying there and birds coming in to feast on them. That doesn't bother me at all that I'm going to be eaten.

[Phoebe Judge]

That's a wild thing to be talking about, isn't it?

[Elaine Walker]

Yes, it is.

[Phoebe Judge]

What did you tell your family when you signed up? How did they respond?

[Elaine Walker]

My husband isn't very excited about it, but he respects that that's what I want to do.

[Phoebe Judge]

What will your husband do when he dies?

[Elaine Walker]

That's a good question. Because he won't discuss it. He's so terrified of death, he won't discuss it.

[Phoebe Judge]

Wasn't that interesting? It's like opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Elaine Walker]

Yes, it really is. But I did tell him that I was going to send him off the cheapest way possible if he doesn't tell me what he wants. But he still won't tell me what he wants.

[Phoebe Judge]

Elaine was the fourth person we spoke with who planned to donate their body to a body farm, but whose spouse refused to even talk about it. Even Dr. Bill Bass, the pioneer of the body farm, is leaving the decision up to his wife. Since that trip, I keep thinking about one particular part of Freeman Ranch. A patch of woods off the main path. It was greener than other places. Shady Dr. Westcott stopped us there and asked us to listen to the birds. Right in front of us, there was a body under a tree, protected from the sun. Someone who thought they might be able to do some good. Someone who agreed to be placed outside under the trees with the bugs until they disappear. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. This episode was originally mixed by Rob Byers. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Special thanks to Sergeant Zachary McBride of the Guadalupe County Sheriff's Office and Alice Wilder. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter we hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal. Plus you can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe reads a mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to to things we've been enjoying lately. A while ago we even talked about what it was like to visit the Body Farm and we caught up with Dr. Danny Wescott. That episode is called Back to the Body Farm. To learn more, go to patreon.com criminal we're on Facebook at thisisCriminal and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com criminalpodcast Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. When I got a new car I thought my insurance premium would increase and empty my bank account like if a tween won the lottery. I've invested most of my winnings in chicken tenders because they're bomb. But bro, I bought a house and it's sick bro. I'm thinking the floor is going to be all trampoline, bro, with the helipad on the roof. The contractor said it's structurally unsound, but they're just being babies. But switching to Geico saved me hundreds so my bank account is safe.

[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

It feels good to save some hard earned cash. It feels good to Geico.

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Dr. Daniel Wescott]

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[Phoebe Judge]

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