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Criminal
Cecilia
00:35:25
When Cecilia Gentili was growing up in Argentina, she felt so different from everyone around her that she thought she might be from another planet.
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- [00:01]
Narrator/Host
Support for Criminal comes from Squarespace. If you're a business owner, you know that it matters how you present your business online. Squarespace has the tools you need to customize your website and advertise all the kinds of services you provide. Plus, you can choose the colors and fonts you like. Go to squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [00:29]
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- [00:54]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
this episode contains references to sexual violence. Please use discretion.
- [01:01]
Cecilia Gentile
When I was a child, I thought I was an extraterrestrial, that I was a ufo. And I told my grandmother that it was a really funny story. And what did she say when you said you were you? My brother told me that they found me in a railroad, right One day we were like crossing a railroad and my brother told me that's where we found you and, and mom took you with us because you were naked on the Nell railroad as a baby. And around the same time I was kicked out of the bathroom in the girls bathroom in school. And I'm from an area of Argentina where there's a lot of UFO activity in the 70s. So I put two and two together and I went to my grandma and I said, grandma, I think I know what happened. I am an alien that I was left by mistake here. But I belong to a country, to a planet where all the girls have pee pees like me. And my grandmother, being the great grandmother that she was, she says that makes sense. I'm pretty sure that's true. And we slept under, you know, outside in the. In a huge patio with trees, fruit trees that she had. And we spent the night outside waiting for, you know, for my family from another planet to come and rescue me. And of course that didn't happen.
- [02:38]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Cecilia Gentile was born in 1972 in a very small town in Argentina.
- [02:46]
Cecilia Gentile
I was always using the girl's bathroom. I always had a tendency. Sometimes I. I didn't say that I was a girl, but I always said that I wasn't a boy. That was a constant for me. And around my teenagers years and adolescents, I started being attracted to other Boys. And I taught well, I guess, like, being gay is the closest thing to what I feel, you know, at the time, it wasn't conversation about trans people, and it was not a conversation about being trans. It was no Internet, you know, So I thought I was crazy for a long time. And when I. When I went to the big city, you know, to go to College at age 17, I met the first trans person that I ever met in my life. And it was like this huge realization of, like, you know, first of all, I'm not crazy. Second of all, I may not be a UFO person. I may not be an extraterrestrial. And there is, like, you know, it is people like me in the world, you know, So I just verbally almost assault this woman because it was like, please, please, please, help me, help me, help me. I need you. I need you. I'm like, you. I need help. She was like, oh, calm down. And I, you know, she said, okay, you know, I help you. She said, I'm working right now. She was in the street. She said, I'm working right now. Go to the bar, and when I finish working, we'll meet and we talk more. And that's what I did. I waited all night in the bar. And then she told me, you know, yeah, you know, you can be trans. It's three things that you need to know. You're gonna be a whore, you're gonna get high, and you're gonna die young. Those are the three things that you need to know and be clear about before making the decision of transitioning. And. And I didn't doubt it for a minute. I said, yes, yes, and yes. I'm okay with all of those.
- [05:28]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.
- [05:38]
Cecilia Gentile
I thought that, you know, that was the only way to survive, right? It was. You know, it wasn't like the idea of having a job while being trans was not possible. The idea of, you know, being a housewife, you know, and having a husband that takes care of you, it wasn't possible because, like, anybody, you know, usually all the men that I dated at the time were dating me under these extreme shaming, you know, cloud, where, like, they say that they were my boyfriend just in between, you know, four walls in a room, but nobody will hold my hand in the streets, you know, so it was like, hey, you know, all these gu. Wants to have sex with me. Nobody wants to be my boyfriend, so I may as well just get some money out of it, you know, so. And survive. So it was more like organically came with the Idea of being trans, the idea of being a sex worker. So it was like, you know, it is that for me, it was like, this is what the life of a trans person is, and I am trans, and this is what I have to do. It was also a lot of reaffirmation with sex work. You know, when you have, like, all these. The rest of the world telling you that, you know, that you are wrong, that you are an abomination, that, you know your body is a mistake, and at the same time, you have all these people paying for your body and for your time. So it was a very reaffirming.
- [07:59]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
How was the money?
- [08:03]
Cecilia Gentile
The money was good. I work a lot. You know, I. I make decent money in the streets. Enough to survive, but not enough to go ahead with certain surgeries that I wanted. Money was enough to pay rent and to eat, but I wasn't making money. My transition wasn't going where I wanted to go. My life wasn't going where I wanted to go. And interactions with police and overall, you know, really, Really, really bad experiences. Sex work was so heavily policed in Argentina. A group of trans women from the city that I'm from were given a reparations pension for all the suffering that the law enforcement made them go through. I hope that gives you an idea of what kind of oppression we were going through at the time. It is like, you know, trans women receiving a reparations pension. That's how bad the government feels about the treatment that they gave us. And, you know, it wasn't only just like, you know, being arrested. It was like, you know, being, you know, asked for sexual favors and asked for bribes and money and being humiliated. So, you know, I would do anything not to be arrested. I would do anything, basically anything not to be arrested.
- [10:27]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
When Cecilia was growing up in Argentina, trans people could be arrested for just walking down the street. As she got older, she moved around, trying to find a place where she felt safe and could do her job.
- [10:41]
Cecilia Gentile
And I guess neighbors started calling the police because I was around. And I, you know, for a moment I thought, like, you know, I found a place where I can just do what I do without being bothered. And, you know, the police started stopping me and they. They sexually. I was sexually assaulted by two officers, and. And I said, like, you know, it's never. It's never gonna be a place where I can do what I do and not have to go through these things. It was like, this sense of, like, is not a safe place for me in this. Anywhere in this city. And I am just gonna die here. So I thought like, you know, I have to do something with my life now. And that was, you know, when the idea of leaving Argentina, trying to build a future came about. And that's how I came to Miami.
- [12:16]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Did you think it would be easier to be a sex worker in America?
- [12:21]
Cecilia Gentile
Oh, I thought, I thought it was going to be people at the airport waiting for me, offering me jobs. That was my idea of the United States. I thought like there were people waving an American flag and saying like welcome and offering me other jobs. So you didn't even have to of sex work anymore. And that wasn't the case. I have to say that was not the case.
- [12:54]
Narrator/Host
We'll be right back. Thanks to Squarespace for their support. Making a website can be intimidating, especially because it's often the first thing people see about your business. If you want to build a website that makes a great first impression on people, you don't need years of coding experience. You just need Squarespace. It's the all in one website platform made to help you stand out online. Squarespace has the tools you need to make your website look exactly how you want it to look, sell your services and get paid no matter what business you're in. You can choose from a library of templates designed by professionals, or if you don't want to scroll through all the template options. Squarespace's blueprint AI can build a website for you in just a couple of minutes based on a few prompts it'll pull from different templates. To create the website you need, go to squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use the offer code CRIMINAL to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Grow Therapy. Working on your mental health can be a long process, and it all starts with finding the right therapist. Growtherapy makes it easy and fast to find the right person. They can connect you with someone from a network of thousands of independent licensed therapists across the us you can search by what matters to you, like insurance coverage, the therapist's specialty, identity or availability, and you can get started with your first session in just two days. You can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments, and you just pay per session. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as zero depending on their plan. You can go to growththerapy.com criminal today to get started. That's growtherapy.com criminal growththerapy.com criminal availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
- [15:05]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Cecilia says that when she arrived in Miami, she started looking for jobs right away. She looked for a job in a hair salon, but she didn't have a license and she was undocumented. This was in 2000. She was 27.
- [15:20]
Cecilia Gentile
So, you know, whatever got better in terms of me being trans in the United States got worse in terms of being undocumented. And of course, the only thing that I knew how to do was sex work besides hair, and that's what I did.
- [15:38]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Her plan was to work for three months in the United States, make as much money as possible, and then fly home to Argentina just before her visa expired. But four days before her flight home, Cecilia was arrested.
- [15:52]
Cecilia Gentile
I got arrested on Washington Avenue in Miami. And I remember, you know, I remember, like, the girls that, you know, the other girls taught me, like, certain tricks that they're not even true. It's just. It's just, you know, things that you do and say, you know, if you touch the client, if it's a police officer is not supposed to let you touch him. That's totally bullshit. You know, I touch. I even had oral sex with police officers. And after we had oral sex, they arrested me, you know, or if you ask them if they're police officers, they have to tell you if they're police officers. So, you know, I did my whole, like, you know, list of things to make sure this guy who stopped me in a taxi, in a yellow taxi wasn't a police officer. He was the passenger in the taxi. So I went in the taxi, and I said, are you a police officer? And he said, like, no, I'm not. And then I touch him, and he allowed me to touch him. So I said, well, he's not a police officer. And he said, how much is, you know, for a date? So I told him how much it was. He says, do you have another friend that you can bring with us? And I said, no, none of my friends are in the street right now. And then he stopped the taxi, and we got out of the taxi, and the taxi driver came out of the taxi, too. And I thought that that was weird. And they arrested me. And I said, but you told me that you're not a police officer. And he said, I'm not a police officer. The taxi driver is. And I got arrested, and I was. I went to the prison, I guess, and of course, they put me there with the men. I Saw the judge, and the judge let me go with the. I needed to surrender my passport, so I was not able to take my flight. And at that point, I overstayed my visa. So I made a decision to just stay, stay here in the United States fully as an undocumented person, and I'm going to fully dedicate myself to sex work. And that's what I did. And I kind of stopped working in the streets mostly. And I focus on ads. I had ads in the paper. I had ads in a special magazine in Miami called Unique Encounters. Really funny name, Unique Encounters. And you put pictures there and your phone number, people who call you. And then I found the Internet, and I found the Internet and money started being good. And I had my first breast implants and I had a couple of facial surgeries. I had laser. I had laser in my face. So, like, not having facial hair was such a, like, amazing moment in my life. So, you know, I started being happy because, you know, I was started, like, I started making, you know, relationships here. I had friends. So it was, you know, it was hard. It was hard, but. It was better than in Argentina. So I wanted to stay here. It was a beautiful community. You know, all my friends that were doing sex work, you know, with me at the same time, you know, they were really good people. You know, they were helping. We were helping each other all the time. We were supporting each other. We were like, you know, in constant communication. Like, you know, this number is going to call. You don't answer. It's a waste of time. Or this guy is going to try to come and see. You don't see him because he's violent. So we had a network where we were all co workers, I guess, and friends, you know, and we spent time and we cook together. It was like, really nice. So it was times where I said, like, this is too much. But it was also good times with community.
- [21:11]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
And how did life get better when you could start getting your clients online so that you weren't out on the streets, but rather at home, you know,
- [21:27]
Cecilia Gentile
at home, at home. So for me, it was, you know, was like, oh, this is great. You know, I just can be at home. I can making, you know, be making my own meals. And if I have a client coming, I just stop and do my client and then eat the food that I cooked myself, you know. You know, things are different when you're home. You know, you're in your place, things are yours. So for me, it was better again, you know, I was always worried that, you know, a Police officer could come and arrest me. You know, it was very common in south beach that, you know, police would make themselves look like clients, you know, in the phone, saying that they were clients, and they will come and arrest you. So, you know, sometimes, like, you know, I would, you know, be looking in the window to see, you know, who my client was. And, like, sometimes I would just think, like, oh, this guy looks like. It looks like a police officer. And every time I see a client with a shaved head, I associate that with police officers, I guess. So I would never see them, you know, I never opened the door.
- [22:54]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
She says the Internet helped a lot. Cecilia could now look someone up before deciding whether to meet them. And sex workers in Miami could communicate on forums and warn each other about police, violent clients or clients that wouldn't pay. They would ID clients by phone number in case they'd given a fake name.
- [23:16]
Cecilia Gentile
So it was great. You know, life was much better. Of course, all of that ended with Sesta and Foster.
- [23:26]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Sesta and Foster, which stands for the
- [23:29]
Narrator/Host
Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers act and the
- [23:32]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Fight Online Sex Trafficking act are a
- [23:35]
Narrator/Host
set of bills that were signed into law in 2018. Under the law, website publishers, including sites like Craigslist, would be responsible if anyone posts ads for sex work on their platforms. The bill's supporters frame this as an important way to curb sex trafficking online. Critics argue that it makes no distinction between victims of sex trafficking and consensual sex workers. One of the immediate effects of the law was that those sites that sex workers use to find clients and communicate with each other started shutting down.
- [24:12]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Are sex workers less safe without these types of sites?
- [24:18]
Cecilia Gentile
Of course, you know, we don't have the opportunity to, you know, look in the, you know, in our forums and like to see if, you know, the clients that are coming to see us are, you know, not good, you know, and also, like, we're, you know, many of us are not able to advertise. You know, people had to go back to the streets, you know, people that were not used to the streets anymore, you know, and also, like, you know, the fact that it was more. More sex workers in the streets, it gave clients a certain level of leverage, right? Because, you know, sex workers had to, you know, take clients, you know, that they wouldn't otherwise just because, you know, they needed to work. So system foster, you know, and shutting down the website, you know, was terrible for the sex workers community. It's really terrible. Really, really terrible.
- [25:29]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
It seems like not many people understand just how common sex work is. Do you think that's right.
- [25:38]
Cecilia Gentile
Absolutely.
- [25:46]
Narrator/Host
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- [27:01]
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- [27:05]
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- [27:06]
T-Mobile Advertiser 2
I'm in front with a center stage front camera. Everyone fits in the shot.
- [27:10]
Cecilia Gentile
The guy to T Mobile.
- [27:11]
T-Mobile Advertiser 2
But switching takes forever.
- [27:12]
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- [27:13]
Cecilia Gentile
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- [27:16]
T-Mobile Advertiser 1
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- [27:17]
T-Mobile Advertiser 2
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- [27:20]
Cecilia Gentile
No way.
- [27:21]
Celsius Energy Advertiser
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- [27:21]
Cecilia Gentile
No way.
- [27:22]
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- [27:30]
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- [27:32]
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- [27:36]
Narrator/Host
All.
- [27:37]
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- [28:02]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
after living in Miami for five years, Cecilia started getting threats that should be reported to the police as an undocumented immigrant. So she moved to New York.
- [28:12]
Cecilia Gentile
I used to live on Mott street and me and a friend of mine, you know had apartments right across the hall. And police went once and they raided her apartment and arrested her. And they were knocking on my door and knocking on my door and knocking on my door, and I just didn't open. I was terrified.
- [28:35]
Narrator/Host
And.
- [28:36]
Cecilia Gentile
And, you know, and I looked through the peephole and I, you know, saw how they were taking her. And they were really. They really wanted me too, and I just didn't open. Nobody should have to work or do what they do for living with this terrible fear of being arrested all the time.
- [29:02]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Are there fewer clients now?
- [29:06]
Cecilia Gentile
I couldn't tell you. I haven't been actively working for a couple of years now. But, you know, I am in touch with most of my friends and like, you know, it is a lot of consensual sex nowadays in forums like Grindr, Tinder and all of that. I noticed that, you know, it's less clients because it's more opportunities to have sex, consexual sex for free. But of course, that is not regulated. That's not criminalized, right? But once you exchange money for sex, you are a criminal. So, you know, when you play football, you are selling your body for money, right? Just in a way that, you know, you're selling your. The strength of your body to catch a ball, right? It's nothing different, right? If you know how to cook, you become a chef. I know how to have sex, so that's why I became a sex worker. So I think because of the idea of sex has been painted as something that is sinful and not moral, you know, had created this idea that sex work should not be allowed.
- [30:49]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
How much of sex work is talking, making people feel good about themselves and not a lot.
- [30:57]
Cecilia Gentile
Yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot. A lot of sex work is a lot of therapy. I always said that, you know, I should have a social work degree because I have counsel and listen to an incredible amount, amount of people, you know, who, you know, hire me through sex work. And in reality, sex was the least that we did in our encounters. I, you know, I encounter all kind of people and, you know, with some of them was also a lot of sex, you know, but with most of them was just that human connection, right? People have need to be connected and to feel comfortable about who they are, you know, so it is a lot about the connection and sometimes it's about sex too.
- [32:13]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Cecilia now lives in Queensland. She was granted asylum in 2011. She plans to apply for citizenship next year.
- [32:22]
Cecilia Gentile
And I have a very. I don't know what's normal, but in my idea of Normality. I have a very normal life. I have a partner. He's wonderful, and I love him very much. We get up at 7, I make some breakfast or coffee and he goes to work. And I get ready and I start with my work. And what I do is advocacy. And then I do all kind of, you know, after work activities and I. You come back home tired and have dinner with my partner and go to sleep. So that's my life. That's my life nowadays, you know, another kind of busy.
- [33:22]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
Today. She's active in efforts to decriminalize sex work in New York. She runs a policy reform organization called Trans Equity, and she leads a support group for undocumented trans Latinas. What do you want to say now to that little girl thinking that she was an alien? Seeing all that you've seen now and where you are in your life, what would you say to that, Mom?
- [33:51]
Cecilia Gentile
I think that we are all aliens until we find our communities. You know, I think, you know, some of us find our community with our own family and some of us don't. So for those that don't find their own community with their own families, it is a family out there and you just have to look for them. And when you find them, you will find your family and you will find your planet somehow where you don't feel like. Like an extraterrestrial. So it is a hard but beautiful journey. But the reward of finding your community is wonderful.
- [34:56]
Narrator/Host
We first released this episode in 2019. Cecilia Gentile became a US citizen a few years after we spoke in 2022.
- [35:07]
Phoebe Judge (Host/Narrator)
She died on February 6, 2024.
- [35:11]
Narrator/Host
Over a thousand people attended her funeral. Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nydia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. This episode was originally mixed by Rob Byers. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them@thisiscriminal.com and you can sign up for a newsletter@thisiscriminal.com Newsletter we hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal. Plus, you can listen to Criminal, this is Love. And Phoebe reads a mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week, to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to patreon.com criminal we're on Facebook at thisiscriminal and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal Underscore Podcast. We're also on YouTube@YouTube.com criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great shows@podcast.voxmedia.com I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
- [36:58]
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- [38:04]
Cecilia Gentile
Today
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