← Criminal
Criminal
E. Jean
00:43:00
We visited E. Jean Carroll at her house in the woods to talk about her two trials against President Donald Trump.
Loading summary
Transcript115 lines
- [00:01]
Phoebe Judge
Support for Criminal comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for this show comes from Pure Leaf Iced Tea. When you find yourself in the afternoon slump, you need the right thing to make you bounce back. You need Pure Leaf iced tea. It's real brewed tea made in a variety of bold flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine. You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so you can be ready to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a Pure Leaf iced tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a pure Leaf. This episode contains a description of sexual abuse. Please use discretion. A few weeks ago, I visited Eugene Carroll at her house in the woods in New York. She offered to read me some of the messages she'd gotten online that day.
- [01:21]
E. Jean Carroll
Okay, here. Here's a typical you all end up in jail. Hopefully your day will come. Absolutely no evidence. Okay. You'll never see a dime. Still making money off the grift, huh? And you are a liar. I'm surprised. There's no how ugly I am here.
- [01:40]
Phoebe Judge
So it just keeps going. I mean, it won't stop.
- [01:43]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, no, these are pretty. This is actually. This puts me in a good mood because there's not even a mild threat here.
- [01:52]
Phoebe Judge
Eugene Carroll has been getting messages like this since June 2019, when she first publicly accused President Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her in her Bergdorf Goodman dressing room. In the 1990s, Eugene was a well known writer. By then. She'd moved to New York from Montana in her late 30s. After she was assigned her first magazine story in the 80s, she was hired to write for Saturday Night Live. And by the mid-90s, she was writing an advice column for Elle magazine called Ask Eugene, which was so popular it was turned into a cable television show. Have you always been good at giving advice?
- [02:34]
E. Jean Carroll
I. It's. Here's the thing. It's very. I'm a cheerleader, so I figure out what the person wants me to tell them when they send the letter and then I just Tell them do it or don't do it. It's fairly simple.
- [02:54]
Phoebe Judge
It's kind of a black and white thing.
- [02:56]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, but then the gray areas, when, after I send the answer, then I worry about it for days afterwards, sometimes weeks afterwards, sometimes months afterwards. But you really got to give them a solid yes or no. That's why my column was liked, because many advice columnists will enter into the very fascinating gray parts. I'm not interested in the gray parts. I either want you to do it or not do it. Life is short. You gotta do it or not do it. Right.
- [03:28]
Phoebe Judge
What's life like for you? I mean, what are you feeling in the mid-90s in New York?
- [03:34]
E. Jean Carroll
Oh, I'm living at 90 miles an hour. I have like three outfits. I have a pair of cowgirl boots. I have my jeans. I have. I'll show it to you, we'll walk over. I have it sitting there. I have it hanging on the mall. It's a buckskin jacket. I had a black corduroy shirt. I had a white dress shirt that I picked up off the street and I thought I was fabulous. 4 o' clock in the morning, we'd be running down the boulevards, we'd be going to brasserie for a cup of coffee. Before at the end of the night, it was. Magazines were at their peak. It was great.
- [04:13]
Phoebe Judge
So let's talk about what happens when you run into Donald Trump in 1996. Tell me about that day.
- [04:22]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, at the time I had a talk show based on the Ask Eugene column in L and it was called Ask Eugene and it was on a network started by Roger Ailes who went on to create Fox News. So I had a live talk show every day for one hour at 4 o' clock and it reran every night at 11. So I am coming out of Bergdorf's and I don't remember why I went there. It was after the show, it was around 6:37 and I come out and Donald Trump is standing on the other side out in the street, ready to come in the door. And he stopped me and he came on through. He said, hey, you're that advice columnist. And I said, hey, you're that real estate mogul. So he knew me because Donald Trump watches television. And then so he asked me for advice on buying a present for a girl. And I thought, oh boy, what did.
- [05:38]
Phoebe Judge
He say I need to buy? I mean, do you remember what he said to you?
- [05:41]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, he said, I have to buy a present for a girl. Come advise me. What could be better? I Was, you know, I could have dined out at Elaine's, you know, for five nights in a row on a story like that. So of course I said, yeah, let's. Yeah.
- [05:58]
Phoebe Judge
And what happened next?
- [05:59]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, I suggested he get her a handbag. He didn't like that idea. And the handbags at Bergdorf's, I think your listeners probably know Bergdorf's. It's a seven story building. It used to be a home of the Bergdorf Goodman family, and it's a luxury specialty store. So when I said, how about a handbag? I we're looking at 6 and 7 and $8,000 handbags in the 1990s, beautiful works of art. But he wasn't interested in that. And then I suggested a hat, but you know, he really wasn't. And then he suggested lingerie. And I just thought the story was getting better and better. So of course we took the escalator up and we went to the lingerie department. There was nobody on the floor because it's 6:37. And he snatched up a bodysuit that was on the counter. He picked it up and he held it up and he said, go put this on. I said, you put it on. What, are you kidding? He said, no, no, no, you're in shape, go put it on. I said, no, you put it on. And at the time, it was very light, very funny, very joshing. It couldn't have been better. I had written a sketch, I was a writer at Saturday Night Live. I had written a sketch somewhat similar. So I'm thinking, this is hilarious.
- [07:28]
Phoebe Judge
What was the sketch for Saturday Night Live?
- [07:30]
E. Jean Carroll
Oh, William Shatner standing in front of a mirror in his underwear, falling in love with himself. Nor Dunn is standing off, putting lipstick on, belittling as he's, he's, he's telling himself, don't ever die and things like that. So the sketch was somewhat similar. A guy in underwear standing in front of a mirror. So I pictured him putting this body suit on over his pants, which to me would have been hilarious. So he said, after you. He said, let's go put this on. He said, after you. And I just walked in the dressing room, not thinking, was he funny? He was light. He was like, let's go put this on. And then he did the big gesture, after you, ma'. Am. You know, everything overdone. And I did. And my intention, of course, was just to see what happened next, which was him putting those. But now the door slammed behind me and he shoved me up against the wall and hit my head, hit my head very Bad. That's how fast it was. I walked in laughing. And that was it.
- [08:45]
Phoebe Judge
You had no time to say anything?
- [08:48]
E. Jean Carroll
I laughed to try to get the situation in hand. No, it happened so quickly. There was no words. I couldn't say words. I could laugh, to think, to, you know, kill any eroticism that was in him. But when it starts, it's a fight. It's a fight.
- [09:12]
Phoebe Judge
And you. And he was stronger than you?
- [09:15]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, I weighed 110. I weighed 120 at the time. He weighed about 220 at the time. He was six two and a half, six three. I was five, nine in my stocking feet, but I was wearing four inch heels, so I was six one. So he had 100 pounds on me, but at least I was tall enough. So it was once. Once all that weight comes against you. Once his whole weight came against me, against my chest. It was rough, but I got out.
- [09:48]
Phoebe Judge
How'd you get out?
- [09:50]
E. Jean Carroll
First of all, I was stamping. But second of all, I was. I got my knee wedged up so I could push him out and off. That's all it took. I just needed something. And for some reason, I still had my handbag in my hand. I didn't. And I got out.
- [10:09]
Phoebe Judge
Did he say anything when you walked out of the dressing room?
- [10:12]
E. Jean Carroll
Not that I recall. He could have. I don't. I don't. He could have. I remember clearly, his breathing right next to my face. That I remember. You know, I can remember that.
- [10:29]
Phoebe Judge
What did you do when you got outside?
- [10:31]
E. Jean Carroll
I called my friend.
- [10:33]
Phoebe Judge
What'd you say?
- [10:34]
E. Jean Carroll
I said, you're not going to believe it.
- [10:36]
Phoebe Judge
Were you still laughing?
- [10:38]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, she told me. I don't think this is funny, Eugene. So I guess I was.
- [10:44]
Phoebe Judge
The friend she called was Lisa Birnbach, who is also a well known writer.
- [10:50]
E. Jean Carroll
So my psychiatrist, she has a theory of why I called Lisa Birnbach. Because it was an odd person for me to call. It'd be just odd for me to call Lisa because she wasn't like my best friend at the time, but she was the funniest person I knew. I mean, nobody's funnier than Lisa Birnbach. She wrote the Preppy Handbook. So apparently I was thinking, if Lisa Lassett, it was not so bad.
- [11:15]
Phoebe Judge
What did you say to her?
- [11:17]
E. Jean Carroll
I said, you're not going to believe what happened. And Lisa also said, this is from her court transcript. He pulled down my tights. He pulled down my tights. Apparently, I couldn't get over the fact that he pulled down my tights. And then, unfortunately, Lisa Said the words that shocked me. She said, he raped you, Eugene. She was feeding her kids dinner. She had to leave the room because she didn't want to use the word in front of. They didn't know what it meant, but she didn't want to. And it was. It was. I couldn't process it. And even though at the time I thought I'd been killed in that dressing room, I didn't know what had happened. I thought I'd died in that dressing room. I had sort of that feeling. But Lisa was going to make everything all right, I guess, you know, Lisa was going to make. Because we're going to laugh about this, and then I'll go to Lane's and I'll. You know. So, no, she says, we got to go to the police. And, well, that was too much. I said, no, she'd come to my house. I'll give you dinner. I told her no. I just wanted to go home. So I did. So I went home and I went to work the next day.
- [12:35]
Phoebe Judge
And that was the only conversation you had about pressing charges was when Lisa brought it up. You didn't wake up the next morning and think.
- [12:45]
E. Jean Carroll
No. Lisa and I agreed at the end of the phone call, we were never going to speak of this again to anybody. This is it. It's over. This is not to ever be spoken of again. Of course, the next day, or possibly the next day, I'm not sure. But I saw Carol Martin, one of my very good friends. She also had a TV show at the same network, and that was it. I just saw Carol, and I had to tell Carol. Then I had to say, you know, you're not going to believe it. So she said, let's go to my house. Because she lived 10 minutes away. We sat in her kitchen, like you and I are sitting here in my kitchen. And I told her what happened. Well, Carol said, do not go to the police because he has 200 lawyers, and he'll bury you. That's what Carol said it was. Listen, it's the same today as it was then. Yes, I could have gone to the police, but I would have lost my job. Roger Ailes would have fired me on the spot. This is why women don't come forward against a powerful man. You lose your job, and he will retaliate.
- [13:55]
Phoebe Judge
How were you doing in those weeks immediately after? Was it still, you know, were you still just in shock, or did you find yourself that you were moving forward in some ways, but other parts of you weren't?
- [14:08]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, I thought I was getting along Fine. No, I was sitting on. I put it behind me. I'm not a woman who like dwells, so I thought I was doing that. So that's what I thought I was doing, you know.
- [14:26]
Phoebe Judge
But you were never intimate with anyone after that again.
- [14:30]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, see, there's that.
- [14:34]
Phoebe Judge
Did. Did it all change for you? I mean, you were moving on and you were. But in a deeper level. Was that. Could you see that? That was. That was kind of shut down now.
- [14:45]
E. Jean Carroll
I didn't see it at the time. No. Anytime an attractive, available man would look at me, I couldn't look back. I'd turn my eyes down. I wouldn't smile, I wouldn't do anything.
- [15:08]
Phoebe Judge
Did you try to go on date?
- [15:12]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, the dog would have adjusted.
- [15:14]
Phoebe Judge
The dog would say, no man's coming in here. Did you try, though, to date?
- [15:21]
E. Jean Carroll
No.
- [15:25]
Phoebe Judge
It'S not fun.
- [15:26]
E. Jean Carroll
Two dating sites, if that has anything to do with.
- [15:28]
Phoebe Judge
Yeah, I mean, you weren't dating, but at the same time you were doing stuff.
- [15:33]
E. Jean Carroll
I started greatboyfriends.com which. Where women recommended their ex boyfriends to each other. So I was psychologically pulling strings behind my own back of getting me out there again. But no, I mean, you wrote a.
- [15:49]
Phoebe Judge
Book about finding the right guy.
- [15:52]
E. Jean Carroll
I did.
- [15:54]
Phoebe Judge
E. Jean's book was called Mr. Right Right Man Catching Made Easy. It was published in 2004. Years later, E. Jean spoke to a psychologist about what had happened to her. She realized she blamed herself when she saw Donald Trump come into Bergdorf Goodman. She thought he was attractive. She'd flirted with him. She told the psychologist, quote, I can feel the shutdown. It's like when shopkeepers pull down the metal grate to secure the store. I can feel it when it happens. When you're interested in someone, you communicate it in a million little physical ways. And when you like them, you pursue them. I haven't done that since then. I shut it down.
- [16:42]
E. Jean Carroll
You know, it'd be nice for me to call up my fella and say, come over. Let's make dinner together. And then we'd watch him Netflix. Then we make out like crazy. But no, I don't have that. So, yeah, I lost a lot.
- [17:01]
Phoebe Judge
When you would hear about him, Donald Trump and the new, you know, coming up for whatever he was doing in those years after, what would it do to you when you would hear his name?
- [17:12]
E. Jean Carroll
I got really good at. Well, luckily, oddly enough, it's sort of exposure therapy with Donald Trump. Because you see him so much, you either have to learn to deal with it or your life is Shattered, Right. So I learned very quickly to bat it away. Bat it away.
- [17:33]
Phoebe Judge
When and why, after all those years, did you decide to come forward and go public with what had happened to you?
- [17:40]
E. Jean Carroll
Oh, it was the Weinstein story hitting the front page of the New York Times. I thought, well, my God. Yeah. Okay. All right, let's do it. Okay. And I thought, I've been silent. I'm 75. Jesus, Gene, get the fuck over and come forward. So that was it. Of course, I couldn't really have foreseen all the damage, but even at the time, I thought, okay, I'll just pay the price. I gotta do it.
- [18:11]
Phoebe Judge
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. We'll be right back. Support for Criminal comes from Quince. As the summer ends, you're probably starting to think about what you want to wear this fall. And if what you're looking for are pieces that are well made and will work for any occasion, Quince is exactly that. They sell essentials for your wardrobe that feel effortless and look great. They're easy to layer, and they last a long time. The kind of clothes you'll keep wearing again and again. Right now, Quint is offering cashmere and cotton sweaters starting at $40, plus washable silk tops and classic denim pants. Quint sent me some things to try. Some linen shirt dresses. I love them enough to get two. And a blue collared jacket that I'm planning to wear a lot this season and for many seasons more. You can elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quince. Go to quince.com criminal for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N C E.com criminal to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com criminal thanks to Squarespace for their support. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place, no matter what you're working on. Whether it's a podcast, a special event, photography services, or a consultation business, you can customize your website to reach the right people. If you're creating video content like online courses, tutorials, or workshops, Squarespace has built in ways to support that. With Squarespace, you can upload your videos into an organized, paywalled library. And they make it easy to collect Payment with thoughtfully designed invoices and online payments. Plus, they have tools that make it convenient for people to keep in touch with you, tools that help you send emails to potential customers or that let your customers schedule their own appointments. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code CRIMINAL to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Once Eugene Carroll decided to talk about what happened, she said she sat down at her kitchen table and wrote everything down in one sitting. Her story was published as an essay in New York Magazine in June 2019. Eugene was on the COVID too, photographed wearing the same wool Donna Karen coat dress she remembers wearing that day in 1996. She still had it at the back of her closet.
- [21:14]
E. Jean Carroll
I was in New York City because when it came out, people thought it'd be best if I'd be in New York.
- [21:22]
Phoebe Judge
Why? For press or for security?
- [21:27]
E. Jean Carroll
We weren't talking about security then. It never occurred to us New York magazine wanted me available. So I was aware there was a buzz coming on and I didn't really know anything until I got back to my. The little tiny, cheap hotel I was staying at on 10th Avenue. Opened up my computer, and I just saw a slut, skank, lying bitch, you know, and so then I went to my Ask Eugene email because I always know I will get something nice. And there was something nice. You go, girl. And there was something. And then I opened up the third one and it was. I stared at it and I thought I was gonna get hit with a bullet at that minute. It was. It was a threat to kill me. And I thought when you get a threat to kill you, you look around. There was no curtain over the wall. And I, like, ducked because I thought I was gonna get shot. That's how. That's what it's like getting in duck because you feel you read the threat. Anything, it's happening. And that I got several that night. So my life had. Was that I used to know it was over. And the new life began.
- [22:52]
Phoebe Judge
Donald Trump denied Eugene's story. He said that he had never met her, that he didn't know her, even though there was a photo of the two of them together at a party in the 80s.
- [23:02]
E. Jean Carroll
And he said I made it up to sell books. And so that's what happened.
- [23:08]
Phoebe Judge
You knew he would react, though.
- [23:11]
E. Jean Carroll
I thought he would say it was consensual.
- [23:21]
Phoebe Judge
Soon after Eugene's story was published, Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin both confirmed to the New York Times that E. Jean had told them the same story over 20 years ago. Lisa said she thought Eugene might have called her first because Lisa had just written a magazine article about Donald Trump. She remembered they fought about what Eugene should do next. When Lisa told her to go to the police, she said Eugene said, quote, it was 15 minutes of my life. It's over. Don't ever tell anybody. I just had to tell you. Carol Martin remembered sitting in her kitchen with Eugene and she remembered that she told her, quote, I wouldn't tell anybody this. Donald Trump kept denying anything had happened. He repeated that he didn't know who Eugene was. And in one interview he said, quote, she's not my type. Do you think if you were 35 he would have said, she's not my type? Was it something about the fact that you were 75 and you know that?
- [24:28]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, of course, everything to do with it because I was on the COVID of New York magazine with no makeup. From the artistic point of view, it was brilliant. Here she is, no makeup, she's telling the truth. This is a woman. This is an old. So what it was was this shrivel crone on the COVID.
- [24:49]
Phoebe Judge
After her essay came out, E. Jean was at a party and ran into the lawyer and activist George Conway. They talked about Donald Trump's comments about her. She said it was during that conversation that she realized she could sue Trump for defamation. So in November 2019, she did, but the case was stalled for years. And then in November 2022, a new law went into effect in New York state called the Adult Survivors Act. What is the Adult Survivors Act?
- [25:25]
E. Jean Carroll
It is a brilliant idea which is now happening in many states across the country where opens a window for victims of sexual assault to make a complaint in civil court against their abuser. In normal, the statute of limitations usually is shut down in most states after five or six or seven years. But in New York, they opened it up and we sued him at, I think two minutes after 12 o' clock on the day it became legal to.
- [26:04]
Phoebe Judge
Do it, Eugene filed a civil lawsuit against Donald Trump for battery and again for defamation based on more comments he had made about her in 2022. He'd repeated that her story was a lie and that she was not his type. This time, Eugene didn't have to wait. A trial was scheduled for the spring of 2023. She started preparing and she says her legal team scheduled a mock trial.
- [26:33]
E. Jean Carroll
Lawyers like to present their arguments to people who could be on a jury to find out how their arguments are working.
- [26:42]
Phoebe Judge
E. Jean says they selected three different Juries for the mock trial trying their best to reflect the New York court's.
- [26:49]
E. Jean Carroll
Jury pool, and I did not appear. What they had was tapes from me, from my deposition. All three juries agreed that, yes, a man and a woman could end up in a dressing room in bergdorf Goodman in 1996. And yes, something sexual could have happened in a Bergdorf dressing room in 1996. And yes, of course, one of those people was Donald Trump and the other was Eugene Carroll. Yes. What they didn't agree on was they thought I wanted it because I was so ugly and so old that there was no way in hell Donald Trump ever attacked me.
- [27:30]
Phoebe Judge
Eugene was worried that might happen. She said she'd even talked to her lawyer, Robbie Kaplan, about it.
- [27:37]
E. Jean Carroll
I had suggested to them, I don't like the way I look because I was getting constant. Much of my social media feed concerned how ugly I was. So what we did is I had said, let me show you some clips from the old Ask Eugene show from 1996. Let's do my hair like this. And Robbie said, no, forget it. We'll just show pictures of you. We don't need it. Then the mock jury happened. First thing Robbie said was, cut your hair.
- [28:11]
Phoebe Judge
So go back to how you looked in 1996.
- [28:13]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, so this is the look I had in 1996. And then we did the color I did in 96 and the makeup, and I wore clothes exactly that I wore in 1996.
- [28:26]
Phoebe Judge
The trial started in April of 2023. On the second day, Eugene was called to the stand and she told her story to a jury for the first time. She told them she flirted with Donald Trump. She said, quote, I didn't picture anything about what was about to happen. That open door has plagued me for years because I just walked into it. She told them that inside the dressing room, Donald Trump forcibly penetrated her with his fingers and his penis. One of Donald Trump's lawyers, Joseph Tacopina Cross, examined Eugene for hours. He asked repeatedly about the details she couldn't remember clearly, like whether Bergdorf Goodman had a revolving door. He spent a lot of time asking her why she didn't scream. She was in a department store, not the middle of nowhere. Why didn't she cry out for help? He brought up the fact that instead she laughed. She told him she wished she had screamed so more people would believe her.
- [29:32]
E. Jean Carroll
It's such an old argument that women have to behave one way and never there's the perfect victim. She always goes to the police. She always screams. She never laughs afterwards. She never goes to a party. She never smiles. She may go to work, I don't know. But usually she just sits home depressed because she's been attacked. That's the perfect victim.
- [30:02]
Phoebe Judge
How do you not keep your cool in that type of an environment where you're being asked these questions and you want to say, fuck you? Yeah, how do you. But you know, you can't.
- [30:17]
E. Jean Carroll
No, you can't. No, no, I. No, I kept my cool because I knew at that point Taina was really getting on my nerves. Where I lost it was when my own attorney, Mike Ferrara, having made it through the day and a half of doing my direct testimony, he asked me was I glad that I came forward, and that's all it took. And I just. That was that. The tears, like, were exploding behind my eyes. That's when somebody handled me gently. That was that, that. That was a moment where my anger against Trump just came pouring down my face.
- [30:56]
Phoebe Judge
Eugene was prepared for Donald Trump's lawyers to ask her personal questions. In a deposition before the trial, she says another one of his lawyers asked her how many people she'd slept with. She said eight. Then she was asked to list them. The list ended with her second husband, the anchorman, John Johnson. She said no one talked to her about the ninth man, Donald Trump. Lisa Birnbach and Carol Martin both testified during the trial and confirmed Eugene's story. Donald Trump never appeared in court, but he gave a tape deposition. During the nearly hour long video played in court, Trump called Eugene a nut job, a whack job, and mentally sick. He denied the story again and said again that she was not his type. Well, when the jury went to deliberate, how are you feeling?
- [31:55]
E. Jean Carroll
Were you feeling confident when the jury went out? Are you insane? No. We had six men and three women. No. I was a wreck.
- [32:08]
Phoebe Judge
The jury deliberated for just under three hours. They found Donald Trump responsible for sexually abusing Eugene Carroll, but they rejected her claim that he raped her. Under New York law at the time, rape was defined as non consensual vaginal penetration by a penis. The jury did not agree that that had happened, but they did believe Donald Trump had forced sexual contact without Eugene's consent. The jury also found him liable for defamation and awarded Eugene $5 million. Trump called the verdict a disgrace. The next day, during a CNN presidential town hall, he denied the story again. He called the case fake news, and he called E. Jean a whack job.
- [32:59]
E. Jean Carroll
He did it in front of a huge crowd and made the audience laugh. So we sued him again. Absolutely.
- [33:09]
Phoebe Judge
E. Jean amended her original defamation lawsuit, the one she had filed in 2019, to include his comments from the town hall. The trial began in January 2024. This time, Donald Trump showed up. So what about that in the second trial? The moment that you see him for the first time in the courtroom, what was it like?
- [33:32]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, while I was preparing for trial, I lost my ability to speak. So that was a thing.
- [33:39]
Phoebe Judge
Tell me about that.
- [33:41]
E. Jean Carroll
I did not want to face him in court. I didn't want to do it. And I kept saying, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And we went for a prep session. I couldn't talk.
- [33:53]
Phoebe Judge
E Jean says in the years since she made her story public, the death threats never stopped. She says she was sent emails with pictures of women who had been violently killed. One picture she remembers was from a car accident. Another looked like it was taken from a crime scene and the woman had been murdered. E Jean's team organized a meeting with a psychologist.
- [34:18]
E. Jean Carroll
So I had to talk to Dr. Leslie Lubowitz over the zoom, and I said the problem was I couldn't talk. And pretty soon, she says, just now, you don't have to say anything about it, but just give me an example of a threat that you can't talk about. So before I know it, I'm reading the threat to her. And then she solved the problem. I don't have to say how I feel about the. Just tell what's happening in my body. That's all I had to do. And that's. Then I could talk. I can't breathe. I could answer. That could be my answer. I can't breathe. That's it. I can't get my breath. My heart is beating too fast. And that's what I did. The first day. The attorneys were having a sidebar with Judge Kaplan, and I am sitting at the plaintiff's table, and he is sitting at the defendant's table, which is right behind me. So when nobody was there, I turned all the way around in my seat, all the way around, and lanced him in the eye. This is just to give myself courage, okay? Just to give me courage. And he jerked and looked back at me. I got his attention. And then I held his eye, and he held my eye. And then I told him what I wanted to tell him, and he got it. He got it.
- [35:53]
Phoebe Judge
What did you tell him?
- [35:54]
E. Jean Carroll
I'm not telling you. I told him I looked right in his eye and he knew what I was saying to him. And then I turned back around. So after I had force myself to do that, I was all full of beans, let me tell you for the rest of the trial. And I looked at him the whole time I was given testimony and he never looked. Anytime, anytime our eyes would cross, he would look away.
- [36:27]
Phoebe Judge
We'll be right back. Support for Criminal Comes From Ritual if you're looking to add more healthy habits to your routine, you can start with something simple like adding a multivitamin to your diet. I've been taking rituals essential for women 18 + for a while now. I like that the bottle smells like peppermint. You take two capsules per day and they're designed to release nutrients over time throughout the day, letting your body absorb what it needs when it needs it. And if you're wondering how effective it really is, Ritual worked with Auburn University to run a clinical trial and figure that out. Their results showed that after 12 weeks, rituals essential for women 18 increased vitamin D levels by 43% and omega 3 DHA levels by 41%. Instead of striving for perfect health, you can aim to support your foundational health. Get 25% off your first month only at least ritual.com criminal start ritual or add essential for women 18 to your subscription today. That's ritual.com criminal for 25% off. Support for Criminal comes from Mint Mobile. If you've been stressing about your phone bill this summer, instead of relaxing at the beach or cooling off at the movies, try Mint Mobile. With Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to for less money. Right now, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for $15 a month. That includes high speed, 5G data and unlimited talk and text. Plus you can keep your phone and phone number. Our friend switched to Mint Mobile. He says that he's happy with the coverage and even happier with his bill. It's much lower now. This year. Skip breaking a sweat and and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer in your three month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at mintmobile.com Phoebe that's mintmobile.com Phoebe upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra cement mobile for details one day, Donald Trump posted 40 times on truth Social about Eugene Carroll. In less than an hour, he called the case a witch hunt and accused Eugene of changing her story when he testified in court. Three days later, he was on the stand for less than five minutes. He was asked if he Stood by his video deposition from the previous trial, where he called Eugene a whack job and sick. He answered, quote, 100%. Eugene stayed in New York City during the trial. One day, the people taking care of her dogs at home told her they noticed an unfamiliar car driving up and down her street and parking at the end of her driveway. When she testified, she told the jury about her first death threat. The night her essay was published in June 2019, she said she was so afraid she was about to be shot in her hotel room that she tried to hide and tried to hang her clothes across the windows. Before the verdict was announced to the court, E. Jean heard the judge ask the jury foreperson a question. She said he asked, quote, the M that appears next to various numbers. What does it mean? You. You want a kind of a lot of money?
- [40:15]
E. Jean Carroll
Yeah, 83.3 million. But it's more now because I've been getting interest.
- [40:21]
Phoebe Judge
Did you ever imagine it was gonna be that much money?
- [40:24]
E. Jean Carroll
Look at me. I li. Do you see? I don't even like stuff. I don't like stuff. I don't think about money. I don't imagine money. I never for a minute thought, oh, I'm gonna get a bunch of money.
- [40:35]
Phoebe Judge
Can you tell we are drinking out of salsa jars?
- [40:39]
E. Jean Carroll
I don't care. Oh, I gotta go buy some pretty glasses.
- [40:45]
Phoebe Judge
E. Jean hasn't gotten any of the money yet. She won't until the appeals process is over. Trump appealed both verdicts, but she said that she plans to donate the money. She has a running list of ideas. One is to start a fund supporting victims of sexual assault. Right after we finished our interview, Eugene gave me a tour of her house. She's lived alone there for years, plus her two dogs. She showed me her bedroom, which is right off of the kitchen. In it, there's a twin bed, and next to the bed, there's a shotgun. Oh, it really is right next to your bed.
- [41:27]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, of course it is.
- [41:29]
Phoebe Judge
Wow. Do you practice?
- [41:31]
E. Jean Carroll
No.
- [41:32]
Phoebe Judge
I mean, I guess, you know what you have to do.
- [41:33]
E. Jean Carroll
I used to do. I used to practice with a nice little revolver because that I could handle, you know? But this one, I don't. This is locked. This is loaded. All I have to do is push off the safety and shoot in the general direction. You know what? They can come and shoot me. I don't care. I'm ready to. I don't care, because they're not going to get far.
- [41:57]
Phoebe Judge
I mean, you might not care that they shoot you, but they're still. How do you feel about them coming to shoot you.
- [42:05]
E. Jean Carroll
Well, they would be coming because of, because of Donald Trump. He has an enormous impact on his followers. So when he says, she's a liar, you better keep your wits about you. That's all.
- [42:21]
Phoebe Judge
In 2023, Donald Trump's lawyers went to court to try to get a retrial against Eugene. A judge rejected their motion, and he added a comment about the jury's original verdict, quote, the finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was raped does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump raped her, as many people commonly understand. Indeed, as the evidence makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump in fact did exactly that. In January of 2024, the governor of New York changed the state's law to expand the legal definition of rape and mentioned Eugene's case the day she did it.
- [43:09]
E. Jean Carroll
And now the definition of rape includes what Trump did to me in the dressing room. So that is, that is a good we, we were way behind the times there, so that's been fixed.
- [43:36]
Phoebe Judge
Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sagiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them@thisiscriminal.com and you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal. Com Newsletter. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal. Plus, you can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com plus we're on Facebook at this is Criminal and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal Underscore Podcast. We're also on YouTube@YouTube.com criminalpodcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great shows@podcast.voxmedia.com I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
- [44:58]
E. Jean Carroll
Foreign.
- [45:05]
Phoebe Judge
It's Andy Roddick, host of Serve podcast for your fix on all things tennis. US Opens coming up and we're covering it on our show. Can someone knock off Alcaraz and Sinner? Can Coco Gauff win her second US Open title? Can Swiatek win her second Grand Slam title? In a row Can Sabalenka break through and win her Grand Slam in 2025? You can watch our coverage of the U.S. open on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast brought to you in part by Amazon Prime.