Extraordinary and Compelling Reasons

Summary

Podcast Summary: Criminal – "Extraordinary and Compelling Reasons"

Introduction "Criminal," a standout podcast by Vox Media's Podcast Network and celebrated as a Best Podcast of 2023 by the New York Times, delves into the intricate narratives of individuals entangled within the criminal justice system. Hosted by Phoebe Judge, the episode titled "Extraordinary and Compelling Reasons" centers around Gary Settle, a long-term inmate at the Federal Medical Center (FMC) Butner in North Carolina. This detailed summary captures the essence of Gary's story, the systemic challenges within the prison healthcare system, and his relentless efforts to aid fellow inmates in securing compassionate release.

Gary Settle’s Current Situation Gary Settle has been incarcerated since 1993 and currently resides at FMC Butner, a facility designated for inmates with significant health issues. Phoebe Judge introduces Gary amidst the backdrop of Butner’s reputation, mentioning notable inmates like Bernie Madoff and Ted Kaczynski who have also been treated there.

Gary Settle (01:26): “My name is Gary Settle. You want my current situation?”

At Butner, Gary's daily routine involves medication management, participating in a chronic illness class where he also serves as a mentor, and limited outdoor time due to his chemotherapy treatments.

Gary Settle (01:58): “All right. Well, it's just like any prison. We're confined to ourselves for part overnight and for different parts of the day... I have a class at 12:30 living with chronic illness that I'm gonna, I'm a mentor in, in that class too.”

Life at Butner: Healthcare and Daily Challenges Butner Federal Correctional Complex is one of seven federal prisons equipped to handle inmates with serious medical conditions. Gary shares his experiences with the facility's medical services, highlighting both the support and the bureaucratic challenges.

Gary Settle (04:00): “About like you'd expect after six years of treatment... when you first came here, I had never really been around sick people.”

He contrasts his initial expectations with the reality of the medical care, noting limitations in dietary options and the rigidity of prison systems in addressing individual health needs.

Gary Settle (06:37): “The options that we can buy on the commissary here... it's predominantly sugar items. We can't buy any fresh produce... I just always thought that a place like this that was designed for medical cases, for the most part, that you should have healthy alternatives here.”

The First Step Act and Compassionate Release In 2018, Gary was diagnosed with prostate cancer, which led to his transfer to Butner. The episode explores the introduction of the First Step Act in 2018, a significant legislative change aimed at reforming sentencing and enhancing compassionate release protocols.

Anna Altman, a journalist specializing in compassionate release, provides context on the challenges inmates face in accessing compassionate release before and after the First Step Act.

Anna Altman (09:56): “People who have been in prison for a long time... don't necessarily trust the system... there isn't a feeling that they are able to advocate for themselves or ask for the medication or the comfort measures that might make them more comfortable in their final days.”

The First Step Act streamlined the compassionate release process, allowing inmates to petition judges directly if their requests were denied or ignored. This legislative change significantly impacted inmates like Gary, who saw potential in helping others navigate the bureaucratic maze to secure early release based on health crises.

Gary’s Criminal Background and Sentencing The narrative shifts to Gary's past, detailing his criminal activities that led to his long-term incarceration. In 1992, Gary was convicted of multiple bank robberies and firearm charges, resulting in a staggering 177-year sentence.

Gary Settle (27:16): “Most of it just got spent in a partying lifestyle. Most of it was spent on frivolous stuff.”

His reflections on his past reveal a sense of remorse and acknowledgment of the consequences his actions had on his life and others.

Efforts to Help Fellow Inmates Driven by his experiences and the legal reforms, Gary dedicated himself to assisting fellow inmates in applying for compassionate release. He became adept at handling the paperwork and liaising with lawyers to advocate for those suffering from severe illnesses.

Gary Settle (17:42): “I just help with some of the bureaucratic stuff and bring attention to certain cases. And when you look at them on paper, once you understand what those words mean, these guys are really bad shape.”

One poignant case involved Bobby Smith, a severely ill inmate whose compassionate release was eventually granted, allowing him a brief respite outside prison before his passing.

Anna Altman (13:59): “The lawyer was able to get that information in front of a judge so that the Judge could grant Mr. Smith release.”

Gary’s efforts have reportedly aided over 40 inmates in their quests for compassionate release, showcasing his commitment to leveraging systemic changes for the betterment of his peers.

Personal Struggles and Continued Advocacy Despite his significant contributions, Gary faces ongoing personal challenges, including a return of his cancer and being denied compassionate release for himself. His applications highlighted his rehabilitation and the support he provided to others, yet the court deemed him not terminal enough to qualify.

Gary Settle (35:34): “Cancer survivor. My father died of cancer early on in my incarceration... You'll be surprised how many people probably wouldn't be. How many guys in prison you meet are mama's boys like me.”

His relationship with his family, particularly his mother's unwavering support, adds depth to his character, illustrating the personal toll of prolonged incarceration.

Ongoing Efforts and Future Prospects Undeterred by personal setbacks, Gary continues to advocate for change within the prison system. His latest efforts involve petitioning for executive clemency, building upon his previous attempts at compassionate release.

Gary Settle (38:44): “They're submitting a petition for executive clemency right now. That's what's. And it's going to have attached the prior motions and all the medical reports and everything.”

As of the latest update in September 2024, Gary remains optimistic yet realistic about his prospects, continuing to mentor and support fellow inmates while navigating his health challenges.

Conclusion "Extraordinary and Compelling Reasons" paints a vivid picture of the intersection between personal redemption and systemic reform within the American prison system. Through Gary Settle’s journey, the episode underscores the profound impact of legislative changes like the First Step Act and the human stories behind compassionate release. Gary’s unwavering dedication to helping others, despite his own dire circumstances, offers a compelling narrative of empathy, resilience, and the enduring quest for justice.

Notable Quotes:

• Gary Settle (03:12): “Either to go home or die. I mean, that's because I don't think I'll leave here again.”
• Anna Altman (09:56): “People... don't necessarily trust the system... they don't know if they're getting full information.”
• Gary Settle (17:42): “I just help with some of the bureaucratic stuff and bring attention to certain cases.”
• Gary Settle (35:34): “Cancer survivor... How many guys in prison you meet are mama's boys like me.”

This episode not only sheds light on the personal narrative of an inmate but also invites listeners to reflect on broader issues of justice, humanity, and the potential for systemic change within the penal system.

Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Gary Settle]

Okay. My name is Gary Settle. You want my current situation?

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah. Where are we right now?

[Gary Settle]

These nice ladies have come to visit me at FMC Butner, which is a federal prison hospital in North Carolina.

[Phoebe Judge]

Butner is one of seven federal prisons that houses inmates with significant health issues. Bernie Madoff was treated at Butner, so is Ted Kaczynski. Gary Settle has been in prison since 1993. What's your day to day life like here?

[Gary Settle]

All right. Well, it's just like any prison. We're confined to ourselves for part overnight and for different parts of the day. But for me, I get up in the morning, get my medication together and all that. I have a class at 12:30 living with chronic illness that I'm gonna, I'm a mentor in, in that class too. Then I'm hopefully going to get outside and get some fresh air.

[Phoebe Judge]

How long can you go outside for a day?

[Gary Settle]

The chemo I'm on, it causes me to flushing and my face will get purple if I stay out too long. But I generally get a couple hours a day anyway, sometimes more as it cools off. I'll probably get a little bit more.

[Phoebe Judge]

And what time do you have to be in your cell at night?

[Gary Settle]

8:30. Yeah. And they open the doors around six in the morning and most of the day route, we have a little hour period of time in the middle of the day where they count. But every three weeks I do immunotherapy on a Wednesday and chemotherapy on a Friday. And I have some other issues. So I have appointments throughout the week. But for the most part, I do a lot of reading, communicate with my friends and family and sit around and wait.

[Phoebe Judge]

Wait for what?

[Gary Settle]

Either to go home or die. I mean, that's because I don't think I'll leave here again.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2018, after he'd been in prison for over two decades, he went to the doctor for a checkup. At the time, he said he felt weird. His blood work came back abnormal. The doctors did a biopsy that showed he likely had prostate cancer. Gary was transferred to a prison with medical facilities, Butner Federal Correctional Complex in North Carolina. While we were waiting to go see Gary, we watched doctors come in wearing protective vests over their scrubs and putting their stethoscopes through the metal detector. How are you feeling?

[Gary Settle]

About like you'd expect after six years of treatment. I'll say this. I'm better off than some of the poor guys I see up there on the floor. When I first came here, I had never really been around sick people. It's strange to say, but in the institutions I was incarcerated in, they were all pretty. Everybody's pretty healthy when you were gone, when you were sick, you came to a place like this.

[Phoebe Judge]

I mean, people. Butner. When you hear Butner, people have heard about this place before. It's not a little unknown prison somewhere. I mean, this place has a reputation.

[Gary Settle]

Yes. It's ironic. My first day here, people get newspapers and they'll leave them laying around for the next person. My first day here, I picked up the USA Today and I looked in around the state section and it had a lawsuit. But this place had just paid someone because the guy came here and lost his vision.

[Phoebe Judge]

The man, Venara Naar, knew he had a degenerative eye disease. According to the lawsuit, as his eyesight got worse, he repeatedly asked staff for treatment. By the time he did see a surgeon, the doctor said he urgently needed an operation and scheduled it for the next day. But it was too late. We asked Bucner about this. The Bureau of Prisons replied, saying that for privacy reasons, they could not comment.

[Gary Settle]

And I give. I don't want to criticize the medical staff here per se, but it's a bureaucracy and I probably had cancer. I probably had this Cancer for a year or two before I was diagnosed, because you don't get the normal test that a normal person would get.

[Phoebe Judge]

When you heard that you were going to be moved here to Butner, what did you think?

[Gary Settle]

That's when I really realized that there was really something wrong with me. Because in a regular. I keep saying a regular prison, but a normal prison that's designed for security reasons more so than medical like this is, you didn't get a lot of medical treatment there because you didn't need it. So when I knew that they took the step to bring me here, that I was worse off than what I thought.

[Phoebe Judge]

You know, I've always thought about this. My father had cancer, and I was with him when he was having chemo and radiation, and he was really sick. After, he would get chemo or the radiation, and we'd take him home, and I would be trying to get him to eat and drink, and he'd be nauseous and feeling, and I'd be trying to feed him anything I could to get him to. Does that happen here? When you finish your treatments, are they giving you lots of food options and.

[Gary Settle]

No. See, I did the 42 radiation treatments first, and now I've done 12 rounds of chemo and six rounds of immunotherapy. No, they don't give us a lot of food options. And it's so strange. The more I've read into my own cancer, I found out that sugar isn't really bad for cancer. Well, the options that we can buy on the commissary here, which is the inmate store, it's predominantly sugar items. We can't buy any fresh produce, and there's security concerns. And I understand all that, but I just always thought that a place like this that was designed for medical cases, for the most part, that you should have healthy alternatives here that might not be available in a place that didn't have medical conditions. But nobody listens to me.

[Phoebe Judge]

And if you've had a hard chemo treatment, is someone checking up on you? Is someone saying, you know, Gary, let me. What can I bring you? I see that you're, you know, struggling.

[Gary Settle]

You know, um, so a lot of us rely on each other, and so there's, like, little support groups, and they have inmate workers here that do a good job, too, that. That icps, or inmate cadre program, I think it is. But, like, a lot of us take care, check on each other, and it's about the best you could do.

[Phoebe Judge]

They would push each other in wheelchairs if they were having Trouble walking to meals or to doctor's appointments, or to use the bathroom.

[Gary Settle]

It's fundamental to how I was raised in my family. It's part of how I am. And the staff doesn't do a bad job, but they're overworked, understaffed.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2019, Gary happened to read an email newsletter from an organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums. There was a new law called the First Step Act. It included changes to the minimum amount of time judges could sentence people for some drug related crimes. Correctional officers could no longer use restraints on pregnant inmates. And it ordered the Bureau of Prisons to assign inmates to prisons as close to their home as possible. It also changed how inmates could apply for something called compassionate release. Compassionate release was introduced in 1984. It allows the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to ask a judge to reduce an inmate's sentence for extraordinary and compelling circumstances like terminal illness and serious health issues related to old age. In 2019, the New York Times reported that about 20% of people in prison were 50 years old or older. Researchers say that people in prison age faster than people outside of prison. So in many cases, age 50 and up is considered elderly. But most prisons weren't designed to support aging inmates health needs.

[Anna Altman]

You know, people are still required to walk far to get their pills, or they might not be able to have the same kind of pain medication or with the same frequency. And so the ability to provide a comforting environment is certainly circumscribed by the prison environment.

[Phoebe Judge]

Anna Altman is a journalist who's written about compassionate release.

[Anna Altman]

People who have been in prison for a long time, which many people who are dying in prison have been in prison a long time. They don't necessarily trust the system that is containing them, and they don't therefore necessarily trust the doctors that are employed by that system to care for them. So they don't know if they're getting full information. They might not be able to request certain things. And so there isn't a feeling that they are able to advocate for themselves or ask for the medication or the comfort measures that might make them more comfortable in their final days. And so I do think it's a different experience of receiving hospice or palliative care in a prison setting than it would be in the community.

[Phoebe Judge]

Before the First Step act, prisoners had to apply for compassionate release from their warden, who could choose to send it up the chain until it reached the director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The BOP would review the requests and decide whether to approve or deny them. If they were approved the application would be seen by a judge.

[Anna Altman]

In practice, what that meant was that someone might request from the warden that they go home because, let's say, they had a terminal cancer diagnosis or they were on dialysis or something of that variety. But the warden didn't have to respond. The warden could basically put that piece of paper in a drawer and forget about it. And if that happened, the prisoner had nothing that they could do about it.

[Phoebe Judge]

Between 2013 and 2017, the Marshall Project in the New York Times found that out of 5,400 requests for compassionate release, the bureau approved 6% of applications. They usually only approve them if an inmate had a terminal illness with less than one year to live. One report found that over a span of six years, 13% of prisoners died before finding out about their application. In 2018, the process changed. The First Step act allowed inmates to petition a judge on their own if the BOP denied their application or if they didn't respond to it within 30 days. In the newsletter about the new law that Gary Settle was reading, Families Against Mandatory Minimums mentioned something called the Compassionate Release Clearinghouse, which was basically the system.

[Anna Altman]

That they set up where they had pro bono lawyers and federal defenders who were willing to work with prisoners to help them apply for compassionate release.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary didn't think he qualified, but he realized that many of the inmates at Butner did. Like one man named Bobby Smith.

[Gary Settle]

He weighed about 90 pounds, and he had a feeding tube, and he had lung cancer because he couldn't eat, and he would have cough so bad that he would expel the feeding tube. He was one of the guys we were watching because he had good and bad days. And like I said, he had lung cancer. And he ended up getting pneumonia on top of that. And I asked him, hey, you know, this organization, you know, they're willing to look at your stuff to see if you have any, as we would say, anything coming in court. And it was. It's you. Like, like you don't find as many atheists in a foxhole. You're not going to find many people on that floor floor that'll turn down help if someone says, hey, you want to take a shot to see if you can go home?

[Phoebe Judge]

Bobby was in the hospice ward at Butner. The doctors thought he had less than a year to live.

[Gary Settle]

He couldn't even get on the computer. He couldn't type. So I was interacting for him.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary wrote an email to Families Against Mandatory Minimums, FAM for short, to see if they could help Bobby. Pham found a lawyer to help Bobby but the lawyer wasn't able to get updated information from the BoP about how Bobby was doing. Gary would provide updates, telling the lawyer when one of Bobby's lungs had collapsed and when Bobby was taken to a hospital outside of the prison for treatment.

[Anna Altman]

The lawyer was able to get that information in front of a judge so that the Judge could grant Mr. Smith release.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary remembers that the judge made the decision while Bobby was still in the hospital. When Bobby got back to Butner, Gary told him he was going home. He says Bobby didn't know what to say.

[Anna Altman]

For Pham, they had always had this idea that if the law changed and if they could communicate to people in prison that they had the option to have legal representation and ask a judge directly that that could change access to compassionate release. But they didn't know for sure if that was true. So that was a really important case for them.

[Gary Settle]

Everybody kind of watched, and that's kind of how everything took off and steamrolled and it became the thing that it became.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary Settle estimates that he's helped more than 40 inmates go home. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. We'll be right back. Thanks to Squarespace for their support. Building a website can seem intimidating if you've never done it before. But you don't need to worry when you use Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help you stand out and succeed online, no matter your level of experience. Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website for your project or business so you can get your product, service, or content out there for the right audience to find. They have plenty of tools to help you tailor it to fit your personality and vision. And if you aren't quite sure what you want, Squarespace has the tools to help you figure it out. Like their website builder called Blueprint AI. It just asks you a few questions about your brand or business, and it uses that information to create a blueprint for your online presence. Plus, your websites will look great no matter what device people use to access them. A phone, computer or tablet. Visit squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Quince. Quince makes a very beautiful Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweater. It comes in more than a dozen colors. The length is perfect. It doesn't pill is very soft. And I just got another one in burgundy for Christmas. I already have the heather gray and I wear it all the time. This sweater has more than 14,000 reviews from happy people saying things like this is my go to sweater. And love love the fit, color and texture and mostly the price. It costs $50. Quince's whole collection of essentials come in 50 to 80% less than similar brands. If you like the sweater as much as I do, you could get yourself the matching hat or the gloves or buy the whole set for someone as a very fancy gift that you will have paid a lot less for than they'd guess. You can get cozy and Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials go to quince.com criminal for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.com criminal to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com criminal Gary Settle says that whenever he saw another inmate at Butner getting really sick, he would ask them if they wanted to try to apply for compassionate release.

[Gary Settle]

I got a little practice doing the paperwork and that's a lot of what it is, just paper work. And a lot of them just wouldn't have done it just because they wouldn't know what to do. They wouldn't even know how to communicate or get their medical records, because that's part of it. I would get their medical records and then explain to the lawyers or fam in the submission what's going on with them. I do a small part. I just help them with the paperwork in here and maybe communicate with the lawyers for them because some of them aren't comfortable with the communication. And some of these guys that haven't been locked up very long don't know how to use the computer. So I just help with some of the bureaucratic stuff and bring attention to certain cases. And when you look at them on paper, once you understand what those words mean, these guys are really bad shape.

[Phoebe Judge]

Have you ever gone up to someone who's in really bad shape, very sick, and said, hey, I think we should work on an application for you? And have you ever had a guy say, I don't, I'm so sick, I don't, you know that it's not even worth it. I'm too sick, I'm too tired. I don't have the energy to try to fight for this?

[Gary Settle]

Yeah, I have had that happen. And before the compassionate release law was changed, there was essentially no chance. But honestly, after the first couple cases here, and I'm sure it was like that in other places when people actually saw, because we were shocked to see people going out the door. I think a lot of guys who might have felt that way prior to the law change. Not only did they change their mind or their thought process of it, I think it actually gave a lot of guys a lot of a mental boost to be stronger in their fight.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tell me about some of the other men that you've helped.

[Gary Settle]

There was a young kid here from Montana, and it struck me because he was, at the time, close to my son's age, in his late 20s, and he was half white and half native American. His name was Victor, and he had a terrible cancer. I can't recall the name of it, but it attaches to the long bones of your body. That actually had to remove his rib cage on the right, left side of his body. Well, make a long story short, he came back with the cancer spread, and I had just got involved in this, and he was a good friend of mine, so I began helping him. And right before the end, he made it about four or five months out on the street, and I spoke to him a couple times. He was able to spend some time with his nieces and nephews and his family before. Before he died.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary says that once one of the many helped was granted compassionate release, but couldn't find anywhere to stay Once he got out.

[Gary Settle]

The court would grant him release if he could have had a place for him to go. And he didn't. And he passed away here. And I don't really count him as a victory, even though he kind of got justification in the court that he should go home. And there's another gentleman. Richard hawes is a real country guy, and he had hepatitis C real bad. And he was approached, I think, by one of the colleges in Kentucky and asked if he wanted to participate in this situation where they would give him a liver and kidney transplant from a person who had died, who had hepatitis C already. And they did that, and then they gave him the new hepatitis, hepatitis C treatment to see if it would work. It would be like a clinical trial type thing. He did that, and then he lived, and the hepatitis was cured. But he had to take these drugs to suppress his immune system from attacking those organs over the years. Well, when Covid kicked in, you know, we were making the point, hey, he can't take the vaccine, and he's also taking something that's lowering his immune system. And he got really, really sick.

[Phoebe Judge]

During the first year of the COVID 19 pandemic researchers found that infection rates were five to six times higher in prison than in the general population. It's hard to know how many people in federal prisons like Butner died from COVID The New York times reported that the justice department stopped collecting and analyzing data about federal and state prison deaths in 2019. Researchers at the University of California, Irvine and Brigham women's hospital estimated that people in prison died at a rate over three times higher than people outside of prison in 2020.

[Anna Altman]

And so very quickly after Covid started to spread in prisons, and it was clear how many people were getting sick and dying in prison from the virus. People saw this as an extraordinary and compelling circumstance that was impacting people's health.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2020, the number of compassionate release requests went way up from just under 2,000 to almost 31,000. Richard Hodge, the man with hepatitis C, was one of those applicants.

[Gary Settle]

He got out, and he's still doing good. I've communicated with him recently. He wrote a really heartwarming email about his family and about the situation he was in out there. And it just makes the point of the whole term compassionate release. You know, he was able to get out because he was still. During COVID he might. He almost died the first time he got it. The second time he got it, he probably would have.

[Phoebe Judge]

There been cases where someone who you've tried to help have had their. Has had their compassionate release denied.

[Gary Settle]

Yeah, nobody. This sounds bad, but the only person who've I've ever been involved with who had a terminal diagnosis that was denied is me.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 1990, Gary Settle was 24 and living in Florida. He got an idea to rob a bank.

[Gary Settle]

We were. This was not a crack cracker jack organization. This is more like the apple dumpling gang. It was me and some of my idiot buddies because that's. We're just a bunch of dumb kids. We weren't. We didn't have, you know, this cops and robbers thing. It was just done more of a. Of a. Well, I think I could do that type thing. So I remember laughing about it afterwards when we had dumped out a big bag full of money and then we went and proceeded to get drunk. That's just. That's how childish it was.

[Phoebe Judge]

He decided to do it again. By 1992, Gary was wanted by the FBI for robbing seven banks over a year and a half. The FBI said he was armed, dangerous, and ready to strike again. And what was your life like at the time? You're just kind of like a.

[Gary Settle]

You know, I. I lived in Florida. I owned my own construction company. It wasn't a big company, but me and my buddy were the bosses. I lived in a nice Place I had a nice car, a boat, everything was golden. I don't. I drank a lot. And I think I'm what I always consider, not just a functioning alcoholic, but I think I had some kind of alcohol dementia because for about a good 10 years I drank a lot. And I guess if I was sober I might have. I was doing pretty good. I probably would have enjoyed it more. My parents lived in Florida. My son and my ex wife were around. I was able to spend time with my son. Had a group of friends of mine around that I let in I led into this. None of them went to jail except the two guys that got caught and testified against me. I think I had a pretty decent life for a. As for a middle class upbringing, you know. You know, without any college, I thought I was doing pretty good.

[Phoebe Judge]

Did you know the FBI was looking for you?

[Gary Settle]

Nope. Had. And I was so naive about the law. I thought that once the robberies were over with and all the stuff, the evidence was gone. That was the end of it. I had no idea there was conspiracy laws or someone could say he did that. And I didn't know.

[Phoebe Judge]

And so I got away with it. Okay, we're safe.

[Gary Settle]

Yeah. Yep. Because no, that I wore a mask and gloves and I wasn't very smart. I just thought, hey, no, I didn't give. And I actually didn't even think about the consequences if I was caught because I was putting it on a. My scale of right and wrong. Well, I didn't hurt anybody. I just took some money. I wouldn't have thought that the consequences wouldn't be that bad if I was caught.

[Phoebe Judge]

How much did you steal in total?

[Gary Settle]

They say the government's contention is 190. Around 190,000 from the robberies. And then they alleged I was involved in another robbery in another state, which I don't know what they're talking about. I wasn't charged with it, but not much. Nowhere near enough. But no amount of money would be enough for what I put my family through and what I did to those people just trying to work a job in those banks.

[Phoebe Judge]

What did you do with all the money?

[Gary Settle]

Well, most of it just got spent in a partying lifestyle. Most of it was spent on frivolous stuff.

[Phoebe Judge]

Like nothing. Nothing that you could show for it now.

[Gary Settle]

No. I mean my liver might be a little enlarged, I guess, but. No, nothing. Nothing worthwhile at all.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 1992, while Gary was on a trip in Massachusetts, he was stopped by police for a traffic violation. When they ran his license, they found a warrant for his arrest. He was indicted on nine counts of bank robbery, one count of attempted bank robbery, one count of conspiracy, and 10 counts of carrying a firearm while committing a violent crime. He was eventually convicted on the robbery and firearms charges. For the times that Gary had used a gun in a robbery, the judge gave him a total of 165 years, the mandatory minimum for the charges, plus another 12 years for the robbery charges. She ordered Gary to serve the 177 years consecutively. @ the time, the judge said, I do not think this is an appropriate result, but I feel bound by the law. Less than 10 years earlier, in 1984, Congress had passed the Sentencing Reform Act. It was intended to prevent judges from choosing any random number of years in prison as a way to counteract a perception that judges were being too lenient. What did, what did you think when you heard.

[Gary Settle]

I'd never been through anything like that. Probably, probably the most vivid memory I have is my sentencing. When and how those work is the judge, the prosecutor, some of the other court people figure out the math, how much time you have. And they were throwing numbers around. No, it's 2,147 months with all the stacking and that's. And it went on for a while and it was real casual, like they were ordering lunch. And as they were going through the numbers, I was thinking, well, 120 months is 10 years. And they were sitting there talking about several thousand months.

[Phoebe Judge]

We'll be right back.

[Gary Settle]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Pay. When you've got a gift list to finish, the last thing you want to do is take out your wallet a million times. Instead, pay the Apple way. With Apple Pay, you can pay with the phone you're already holding. Just double click, smile at Face ID tap, and you're done. The people in line behind you will thank you. Apple Pay is a service provided by Apple Payment Services llc, a subsidiary of Apple Inc. Any card used in Apple Pay is offered by the card issuer.

[Phoebe Judge]

Support for Criminal comes from Framed. If you're looking for a true crime, must read. There's a new one that comes from none other than John Grisham. It's called Framed and it's his latest New York Times bestseller. Grisham's real life passion for justice led to his work with Jim McCluskey of Centurion Ministries, an organization dedicated to exonerating innocent people. In Framed 10 True Stories of Innocent people Framed for murder, you'll read about the racism, flawed testimony and corruption that contributes to wrongful convictions. And why those convictions are so difficult to reverse. It's stories about real people and their fight for freedom against all odds. Reid Framed by John Grisham and Jim McCluskey in stores now. Also available as an audiobook. A few years after he was convicted and sentenced to 177 years, Gary settle tried to break out of prison along with two other prisoners, including Woody Harrelson's father, who'd been convicted of murder. They made a rope and tried to climb over the wall. They gave up when a guard fired a warning shot. It made the news. Gary told us that he wasn't always a model prisoner or, quote, a big follower of the rules.

[Gary Settle]

I participated in illegal activities like gambling and just things like that. Like I said, you can have an altercation with someone. You can be in the wrong unit. You could. You can get into. There's a lot of rules. There's a lot of rules. And to put in perspective, I've been locked up for 32 years. I have had 14 incident reports, and 10 of those were in the first 10 years of my incarceration. So, I mean, it's not good. Some guys have none, but it's easier here to stay out of trouble because there's more stuff to concentrate on to do, more positive stuff to do, and you just don't have the energy for it either, getting cancer treatment. So it's just time to just rest and let my body heal itself when it can. I just. I'm tired of. I got tired of fighting with them about stuff. So I'm. Now I'm just trying to do what? Do the right thing. I've come to be more accepting of my responsibility. And no matter how much I don't approve of the way the law is structured, that has me. It's a strange law that has me in this situation. Well, my actions have me in this situation, but I made the choices that put myself in this position. Ultimately, that's. I can't make it better.

[Phoebe Judge]

How old are you?

[Gary Settle]

I am 58 years old.

[Phoebe Judge]

You're not that old.

[Gary Settle]

Well, I feel that old. I was relatively healthy until 2017, and then I kind of started falling apart. Since then, I've had knee replacements, I got problems with my wrist, and just a bunch of different things going on. Not as bad as some guys, but bad enough. And it makes me feel old. I guess I feel old, too, because I feel I've had a fruitless life, you know?

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2020, a lawyer friend told Gary that he should apply for compassionate release for himself. At the time his cancer was in remission, but Gary also had a thyroid disorder and was at risk for severe Covid. She helped him file a motion in January 2021. The motion read, during his almost three decades of incarceration, Mr. Settle has grown from a reckless young man into a thoughtful middle aged man known for the meaningful relationships he builds with others. His lawyers argued that Gary's work helping other inmates get compassionate release demonstrated his sincere rehabilitation. The application also included letters from the people Gary had helped. Gary wrote his own letter and said, I have a very small family, but I dream of an opportunity to be part of their lives. About a month later, a judge denied Gary's motion. He said that because Gary wasn't terminal and was independent enough to care for himself, he did not qualify for compassionate release, even with his risk for Covid. Almost two weeks later, Gary found out that his cancer had returned. In September of 2021, Gary says he was given a prognosis of 18 months. He applied for compassionate release again. Until then, he had kept his cancer secret from his mother. But this time he would have to tell her she would be the person he would live with if he was released. He asked her to come visit so he could tell her in person.

[Gary Settle]

She took the diagnosis to heart because she hadn't seen me. So I wanted her to come here so she could talk to me and see me face to face. Because I don't want. I didn't want to be on the institutional phone. They're all recorded. I didn't want to say something that could be misconstrued. I wanted her to see me.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary's mother is 84, still working on her yard.

[Gary Settle]

Cancer survivor. My father died of cancer early on in my incarceration, while I was locked down because of not being a model prisoner. So she went through that by herself. You'll be surprised how many people probably wouldn't be. How many guys in prison you meet are mama's boys like me.

[Phoebe Judge]

After he was arrested in 1992, he remembers his mother visiting him in the county jail.

[Gary Settle]

First thing she said, do the glass, because it was with the phone. She looked at me and mouthed the words, did you do it? And I looked at her and I said yes and nodded. And she put her head down and then brought her head up and has been with me the whole time ever since.

[Phoebe Judge]

How often do you get to talk to her?

[Gary Settle]

Every day.

[Phoebe Judge]

When was the last time you saw her?

[Gary Settle]

Let's see. I think it was May.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary filed his second application for release in 2022. His prostate cancer was now stage four and scans indicated that it had spread to his spine and lymph nodes. That May, he tested positive for Covid. Gary's lawyers filed his motion for compassionate release and requested to expedite it because of his COVID infection. The judge denied the request. He said he didn't see any evidence of rehabilitation and found Gary's remorse disingenuous. He was concerned that Gary had never directly apologized to his victims. Gary told us he doesn't know how he would have. He's continued to help other inmates at Butner with their own applications.

[Gary Settle]

It's a bittersweet thing. It's great to see someone go home like some kid went home yesterday. It just. Sometimes I have to think, you know, I hope they're going to go out there and do good, you know, I think they are, but I, it's that, okay, he's getting out. And it's, it's, it's. I'm being completely frank here. Sometimes it's, you know, it's great that the people are beginning, let out, but they're. How about me? You know, it's, it's selfish to say, but it's, it's a thought that I do have doesn't discourage me from doing it because in the end of the day, or into my day at least, I'm trying to do something positive and I can't, I can't not do something. Looking at these guys. If anybody could look at these guys up here and have even the slightest ability to help them and not do it, there's something wrong with them.

[Phoebe Judge]

So where are you in your. You've been denied release compassionate twice? Is that it? Can you, can you apply again?

[Gary Settle]

Well, my, the many great lawyers that were involved with my, the efforts on my behalf, Juliana and Donnie, and there's a bunch of them, really good people, Mary Price mainly. They've advised me that my option right now is what's. They're trying to, they're, they're submitting a petition for executive clemency right now. That's what's. And it's going to have attached the prior motions and all the medical reports and everything. So that's what's being done right now.

[Phoebe Judge]

How far are you into your sentence right now?

[Gary Settle]

I, A couple weeks ago, I completed 32 years straight.

[Phoebe Judge]

You have 140 years left. Gary was told he had 18 months left to live in 2021. We spoke to him at Butner in September 2024.

[Gary Settle]

It's a tough, tough, you know, I, I, who Thought I was going to get cancer. And you know, and I don't know about how the diagnosis stuff works. I know I've watched guys with my same cancer, so I kind of have an idea where things are going, you know, going forward. I could be worse. I'm a mentor in a pain management class here. And we had a class yesterday and some of the new guys, a new class and some of the guys were listing their issues. And I said then I don't really want to say what I have because I felt. Because these guys are, as I said again, I keep saying this, but I mean, I know hospitals are pleasant places, but there's some guys in bad shape here and some of the ailments these guys are dealing with on a day to day basis besides pancreatic cancer and all these other things is could be worse.

[Phoebe Judge]

Gary says recently he helped a man with a rare brain cancer get out. He also helped another inmate whose application had gotten stuck waiting for review by the Bureau of Prisons. You know, why do you keep doing this?

[Gary Settle]

I can't give you a specific answer other than I feel like I'm compelled to because one, it's very empowering to see somebody go home from a cancer floor. As I said, it's how I was raised and I don't know, 100. I like to part of it, I guess I'll be frank. Part of my motivation is I know that a lot of people that are involved in the criminal justice system don't like to see people get released. I've always thought that in some of these submissions that we should take a picture and just show the judge, look at this guy. Because what they rely on, like they did in my case essentially is I'm a threat to society. You see these guys up here, they're not a threat to nothing. They can barely get out of bed, some of them. And most of us just want to go home and see our families and try to mend fences. That's what most of us want to do, spend time with our families.

[Phoebe Judge]

Since 2019, over 5,000 people across the country have been granted compassionate release. You can learn more about Gary Settle in Anna Altman's piece the Quality of Mercy in the Atavist magazine. Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter. Consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal. Plus you can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spohr telling stories from the last 10 years of working together. And at the end of each episode we share things we've been enjoying recently. I recommended the Apple TV series Mosquito Coast. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com plus we're on Facebook and Twitter at Criminal show and Instagram at Criminal Underscore Podcast. We're also on [e-mail] criminalpodcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great [e-mail] media.com I'm Phoebe Judge, this is Criminal. Support for Criminal comes from Better Health Fall isn't my favorite time of year. I like summer, and when fall comes around, the days are getting shorter, vacations are behind us and there's a sort of back to school anxiety in the air. If you haven't been feeling like yourself, you could consider a session with a licensed therapist. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient and suited to you and your schedule. Visit betterhelp.com criminal today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelphelp.com criminal support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks. It's never too late to try new things and it's never too late to reinvent yourself. The all new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure. From the design and styling to the performance, all the way to features like the Bose Personal plus sound system. You can get closer to everything you love about city life in the all new reimagined Nissan Kicks. Learn more at www.nissanusa.com/2025-kicks available feature Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation.