For the Sake of American Youth

Summary

Criminal Podcast Episode Summary: "For the Sake of American Youth"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Criminal
• Host: Phoebe Judge
• Network: Vox Media Podcast Network
• Episode Title: For the Sake of American Youth
• Release Date: November 22, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode "For the Sake of American Youth," hosted by Phoebe Judge, Criminal delves into the intricate relationship between comic books and juvenile delinquency in mid-20th century America. This exploration centers on Frederick Wertham, a psychiatrist whose controversial stance on comics significantly impacted the industry and American youth culture.

The Rise of Youth Crime and Comics Influence

The episode opens by recounting alarming statistics from the late 1940s to the mid-1950s, highlighting a dramatic increase in juvenile crime rates. Senator Estes Kefauver labeled this surge as the "fifth Horseman of Doom," prompting governmental scrutiny into potential societal influences on youth behavior.

At [01:18], Judge narrates the story of two Oklahoma City fifth graders, Jimmy Boddard (11) and Ronnie Peterson (12), who vanished and were later found piloting a stolen plane. Their astonishing feat of landing the aircraft, despite lacking formal training, raised suspicions that their actions were inspired by comic book heroes, as admitted by the boys themselves.

Frederick Wertham's Role and Claims

Frederick Wertham, a prominent psychiatrist, emerges as a central figure in this narrative. At [05:25], Wertham expresses concern over the increasing number of crimes committed by youths, attributing this trend to the violent and morally ambiguous content of comic books. He asserts, "The increase in craven crime committed by young Americans is rising at a frightening pace... More and more of our children are committing more serious crimes." ([05:39])

The 1954 Senate Hearings

The episode details the 1954 Senate hearings led by Senator Kefauver, aimed at investigating the alleged negative impact of comic books on American youth. Wertham served as the star witness, presenting comic book excerpts that depicted extreme violence, sexual content, and racial stereotypes.

At [26:16], Wertham testifies, describing graphic scenes from comics to illustrate his points. For instance, he critiques a comic titled "Frisco, Mary Concerns," which portrays a young woman controlling an underworld gang and committing murder, only to face a tragic end. Wertham contends that such narratives glamorize criminal behavior and erode moral values among young readers.

Public Backlash and Comic Book Burnings

The revelations from the hearings ignited public outrage, leading to widespread comic book burnings orchestrated by churches, schools, and community groups. These events symbolized a societal attempt to purge perceived corrupting influences from youth culture.

Prominent in the episode is the vehement opposition Wertham faced. At [16:05], Josh Levy, a historian, challenges Wertham's assertions, stating, "No child has ever said to me as an excuse, I did this because I read it in a comic book. I had to figure that out." ([16:18]). This skepticism underscores the debate over culpability and influence.

Implementation of the Comics Code

In response to the hearings and public pressure, the comics industry established the Comics Code Authority (CCA) in 1954. The CCA imposed strict guidelines to sanitize comic book content, ensuring that crime was never portrayed sympathetically and that moral lessons were clearly conveyed. For example, one of the code's rules stated, "Crime shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal..."

Saladin Ahmed, a contemporary comic writer featured in the episode, explains the Code's restrictive nature: "Crime shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals." ([33:36]). This regulation fundamentally altered the landscape of comic book storytelling.

Long-term Impact and Decline of the Code

The Comics Code remained a dominant force in the industry for decades, stifling creative expression and leading to the decline of many publishers who could not comply with its stringent rules. Over time, however, attitudes towards censorship shifted, and the Code's influence waned.

By the 1990s, the Code was losing its authority as publishers began to challenge and eventually abandon its guidelines. As Saladin Ahmed notes, "By the 90s, people didn't care very much about the comics code... It sort of died a slow death by that point." ([38:52]). The Code was officially dissolved in 2011, marking the end of an era of self-censorship in the comics industry.

Current Perspectives

The episode features insights from Saladin Ahmed, who discusses the lingering effects of the Comics Code and current standards within major comic book publishers. Despite the Code's demise, modern comics still navigate content guidelines to balance creative freedom with audience appropriateness.

Ahmed reflects on childhood perceptions, stating, "I didn't think they'd be up to snuff for them." ([40:24]), emphasizing the evolving standards in storytelling and representation.

Conclusion

"For the Sake of American Youth" offers a comprehensive examination of Frederick Wertham's influence on the comic book industry and American youth. Through historical recounting and expert interviews, the episode highlights the complex interplay between media, societal values, and legislative action. It underscores the lasting legacy of the Comics Code and its role in shaping modern storytelling conventions within the genre.

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Notable Quotes

• Frederick Wertham ([05:39]): "The increase in craven crime committed by young Americans is rising at a frightening pace... More and more of our children are committing more serious crimes."

• Josh Levy ([16:18]): "No child has ever said to me as an excuse, I did this because I read it in a comic book. I had to figure that out."

• Saladin Ahmed ([33:36]): "Crime shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals."

• Saladin Ahmed ([38:52]): "By the 90s, people didn't care very much about the comics code... It sort of died a slow death by that point."

• Saladin Ahmed ([40:24]): "I didn't think they'd be up to snuff for them."

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This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the power media holds in shaping societal norms and behaviors, and the delicate balance between regulation and creative freedom. It provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of a pivotal moment in American cultural history.

Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

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Hi, it's Phoebe. Before we get to our episode today, which I think is an especially good one, I wanted to take a minute to talk about Criminal. Plus, you've probably heard me talk about.

[Lauren Spohr]

It on the show before, but I.

[Phoebe Judge]

Don'T think I've talked about why it's important to us. If you've been listening to this show.

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For a long time, you know that I'm always uncomfortable talking about things like this.

[Phoebe Judge]

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In, get out, not waste your time.

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[Phoebe Judge]

Me and Criminal Co creator Lauren Spohr. At the end of this episode, you can listen to a full episode of Criminal plus for free. We've heard from a lot of our Criminal plus members that the bonus episodes are their favorite part of this whole thing. Thanks very much to all of you who've already signed up. We can't tell you how much your support matters, and if you'd like to learn more or sign up, go to thisiscriminal.com/right now. If you use the promo code thanks you get 20% off an annual membership. Now here's the show On A Monday in 1948, two fifth graders in Oklahoma City skipped school. Jimmy Boddard, age 11, and Ronnie Peterson, age 12. The next day they were reported missing to highway patrol. That night, a sheriff found them In a town 130 miles away, almost in Texas. The boys said they had hitchhiked there. Their parents came to pick them up and take them home. But then the sheriff found an abandoned plane in a field nearby. They traced the numbers on the plane back to its owner in Oklahoma City, and the fifth graders admitted that they had stolen it. Ronnie said neither of them had flown a plane before, but according to a state trooper, they made a perfect landing. Ronnie said there's a button with the word starter marked over it. Then of course we knew about throttles and such things, but Ronnie said Jimmy was the one who took off and landed the plane and it had been his idea to fly. He had planned to drop Ronnie off in a field so he could visit a friend who lived in Texas and then he'd keep on flying to New Mexico. But while Jimmy was taxiing around the.

[Lauren Spohr]

Field, getting ready to go, the front wheel got stuck.

[Phoebe Judge]

So they ended up abandoning the plane and walking towards the nearest town together. Ronnie said Jimmy had learned how to fly from reading a comic book, the state trooper said.

[Lauren Spohr]

They said it was easy.

[Phoebe Judge]

They looked at some comic books that told all about it. A few Years later, in 1952, six houses in Lakeland, Florida were robbed. @ each one, the burglar had left a note that said the Phantom strikes again. A detective tracked down the burglar using footprints and fingerprints from the scene and a bicycle that was nearby. The burglar was a 13 year old boy who said he was doing what he'd seen in a comic book. In total, he'd stolen $6.

[Frederick Wertham]

The increase in craven crime committed by young Americans is rising at a frightening pace. More and More of our children are committing more serious crimes.

[Phoebe Judge]

Between 1948 and 1956, the number of teenagers and kids appearing in court more than doubled. One senator called the rising Crime rates the fifth Horseman of Doom. In 1953, the Senate formed a subcommittee to figure out what was going on with kids in crime. And they started reading all the comics that they could. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.

[Saladin Ahmed]

I had always thought what they call the golden age of comics, which is that 30s and 40s period, was like, you know, Boy Scout comics, and it was not.

[Phoebe Judge]

Saladin Ahmed writes comics for publishers like Marvel.

[Saladin Ahmed]

One of the best series is called Crimes by Women. And it's like these really sensationalist tales often of women, like taking out their abusive partners or husbands or whatever going on crime sprees. They're incredible comics.

[Phoebe Judge]

By the 1950s, publishers were selling between 70 and 100 million comic books every.

[Saladin Ahmed]

Month, all during World War II, despite kind of the deprivations that people on the home front are going through. People are buying loads of comics. Women were buying them. You know, women had disposable income because they were working in factories, and a lot of black folks who were in positions they wouldn't have been allowed into except that people needed workers, people who had had less disposable income a few years prior were out there buying stuff. And it led to a wild west of comics writing and art. There were a lot of these comics with, like, criminal protagonists. And nominally there would be some little bit where they got punished at the end, but it was clearly, you know, glorifying crime. Basically.

[Phoebe Judge]

There were characters like Lady Satan who wore a red cloak and a black mask and fought Nazis. There were also comic books written by black artists featuring all black characters, like a detective named Ace Harlem. A journalist named Orrin C. Evans created ace Harlem in 1937 for a newspaper strip. And before Spider man, there was Spider Queen with web fluid, shooting bracelets who swung between buildings.

[Saladin Ahmed]

There are some cool kind of racial inversions too. There's a superhero named Mantoka who's like, a very stereotypical and problematic depiction of a Native American character. But he's, like, using fire magic to burn, like, you know, white miners who are taking over the land.

[Phoebe Judge]

We wanted to go see some of the comics Saladin Ahmed was talking about.

[Lauren Spohr]

So we're here at the National Archives because we're trying to find some comics.

[Phoebe Judge]

I'd never been to the national archives in Washington, D.C. things are probably safe in this building.

[Lauren Spohr]

You know, like, it doesn't seem like.

[Phoebe Judge]

Anything'S gonna get out of here.

[Lauren Spohr]

Those columns are pretty big.

[Phoebe Judge]

In the 1950s, they had a 50 ton steel safe built under the floor. And for years they would press a button every night to lower the original Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights down into a vault. We walked through a giant hall on our way to the elevator.

[Lauren Spohr]

And is something famous about this area in here? Well, that's the Constitution. Is that the real Constitution?

[Phoebe Judge]

And we ended up in a small room downstairs.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, first off, let me just ask you your name.

[Adam Berenbach]

I'm Adam Berenback.

[Phoebe Judge]

And what do you do?

[Adam Berenbach]

I am an archivist for the center for Legislative Archives. So we have the records of Congress dating back to 1789, including all of.

[Phoebe Judge]

The comics senators collected back in the 50s. To try to figure out why kids were committing more crimes. He showed us the Senate's copy of Super Funnies presents Dopey Duck and Captain Commie Smasher. But most of the comics weren't about superheroes at the time. People had started writing sci fi stories and there were a lot of comics about romance, relationships going south, cheating, eloping, stealing cars, women getting tricked into fake marriages.

[Lauren Spohr]

What's wrong with Boy Love's girl? Oh, she's on his lap.

[Adam Berenbach]

And I believe they're getting caught by her. I'm guessing I didn't read the book itself, but they're getting caught by either her husband or her spurned lover.

[Phoebe Judge]

One of the comics had a picture of a man and a woman on the COVID smiling, with their foreheads pressed together. The title was Young Brides. But then we started reading the caption.

[Lauren Spohr]

The negligee was black lace, soft and filmy as a cloud. There was only one fault I could find with it. My husband had bought it for the other woman.

[Adam Berenbach]

I picked that one out particularly because I thought that was an extra kind of saucy cover. That was definitely.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, you wouldn't think that it was. The picture is pretty innocent. But then you start reading that text, right?

[Adam Berenbach]

And that was sort of the combination of the storytelling itself and the images being what they viewed as, you know, problematic and affecting the crime rate of juvenile delinquency.

[Phoebe Judge]

A lot of the Senate's collection was horror comics. They were some of the most popular at the time. About a third of all the comic books being published, children could buy them for around 10 cents. And some people were very unhappy about it.

[Saladin Ahmed]

Mostly hideously gory stuff was the problem, like people getting their heads chopped off, you know, monsters ripping people's flesh off. And, you know, a lot of it had a Creepy sexist vibe to it.

[Phoebe Judge]

It wasn't just the content of the comics that interested the senators. They were also looking at the ads inside. A concerned psychiatrist sent in a letter describing the problem. It's preserved in the archive.

[Lauren Spohr]

Millions of comic books in the hands of children have illustrated advertisements of switchblade knives. And nobody can understand the comic book question. Who does not recognize this as one of the essential facts. So he's saying they're all buying switchblades.

[Phoebe Judge]

Then. In the summer of 1954, the arrest of a group of four teenage boys in Brooklyn made national news. They were accused of beating and murdering two men on the street. One was sleeping on a bench and they admitted to attacking two young women with a horsewhip and to setting another man on fire. The leader of the gang was an 18 year old named Jack Coslow. Jack Koslow was Jewish, but he said Hitler was his hero. He had taught himself German. He was in a gifted program at school and graduated early. The district attorney said, quote, I can't understand what would make boys do such terrible things. They apparently had no reason except the thrill they got. People started calling them the thrill killers. But the court appointed psychiatrist on the case, Frederick Wertham, thought he knew exactly what pushed them to do what they did. Frederick Wertham said Jack Coslow admitted he was addicted to horror comics. We'll be right back. Support for Criminal comes from ritual. I love a routine.

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Etsy has it. One journalist wrote that 18 year old Jack Coslow thought of himself as a crime fighting hero helping out the police. One of the other teenagers in their gang said their goal was to clean the street of bums. Jack Coslow also told the psychiatrist Frederick Wertham he had purchased a whip and cloak through ads in a horror comic. Frederick Wertham told a journalist, I wish to emphatically point out that such crimes did not exist before this comic book era. Here he is.

[Josh Levy]

No child has ever said to me as an excuse, I did this because I read it in a comic book. I had to figure that out. It was all up to me. I had to try and find out how that came about. The children don't say that.

[Phoebe Judge]

Years before, Frederick Wertham had directed a clinic that conducted psychiatric exams of people convicted of felonies. It was the first clinic of its kind in the U.S. he often testified in court. He also helped open the first mental health clinic in Harlem called the Lafargue Clinic.

[Carol Tilley]

So there's quite a lot of photographs here. I just brought all of them out. This is an interesting one of a patient taken by Gordon Parks, I guess, waiting in the waiting room. There's some that show Wertham by himself.

[Phoebe Judge]

After we left the National Archives, we walked to the Library of Congress to meet historian Josh Levy. He showed us Frederick Wertham's papers. They have around 200 boxes of them. Frederick Wertham and the other Lafargue Clinic staff did research on the negative mental health effects of segregation and what they found was used in desegregation cases that led up to Brown versus Board of Education.

[Lauren Spohr]

In terms of all the things he got involved in, how important do you think the comic book work was?

[Carol Tilley]

To him, I think it was important he came back to it over and over again. He did a lot of other things. But comics is sort of what he's remembered for now.

[Phoebe Judge]

Spending time talking with young patients in the Harlem Clinic is how Frederick Wertham first got curious about comic books. They would tell him what they were reading and it worried him.

[Carol Tilley]

This is a transcript, really that Wortham had prepared from a child patient that he saw, age 15.

[Lauren Spohr]

And so here this patient is speaking a lot about comic books.

[Carol Tilley]

Yes, quite a lot about comic books. This is a member of what Wertham called the hooky club, which was a group of kids that were considered delinquents that would gather and then Wertham would press him about different kinds of questions that he, that he wanted to know from them. I don't know if you want to read some of these. Some of them.

[Lauren Spohr]

I mean, this, you know, second comic book is Crimes by Women. He describes the outside. A cop beating a woman, it seems to me, with her dress hanging off practically, her legs are showing above her knee, with a gun in her hand, smoking as though she already shot somebody with hate and disgust. For the cop, the condition is mostly murder. So that would be an argument for this is not a thing a kid should be seeing, Right.

[Phoebe Judge]

Frederick Wertham argued that not only were the comics too violent, they were also racist. He wrote that one 15 year old patient told him about the ways black people were depicted in the funny books he read as, quote, slaves, more or less, and the worst people there are. Frederick Wertham said Hitler was a beginner compared to the comic book industry. They get their children much younger, they teach them race hatred before they can read.

[Carol Tilley]

His claim is that the racist comic book and the segregated school, they're all sort of the same thing. It's a kind of environment that creates trauma and harm in young children.

[Phoebe Judge]

Frederick Wertham published a book about comics called Seduction of the Innocent. In his work as the court appointed psychiatrist in Jack Coslow's murder trial, Frederick Wertham focused on one comic in Knights of Horror. Nights of Horror was a lot about sex, women, whipping men, bondage, torture. Frederick Wertham concluded that Knights of Horror was to blame for Jack Coslow's crimes, though Jack Coslow never admitted to reading that series. Specifically, there's a letter from Frederick Wertham addressed to Jack Coslow at the Library of Congress. We're not sure if he ever sent it. Jack Coslow had already been convicted of first degree murder. In the letter, Wertham says he thinks Jack Coslow was a victim, too, of his environment.

[Carol Tilley]

And this is a really interesting note, because Jack Koslow is guilty. And Wertham says, you are a human being like everybody else. And that whatever fault may be yours, you were the victim also of vicious outside influences over which you had no control.

[Phoebe Judge]

That year, New York banned Nights of Horror. The police went to bookstores and confiscated thousands of copies. One bookstore tried to challenge the ban in court. But the judge decided the comics were, quote, dirt for dirt's sake. And ordered they should all be destroyed. The case went to the Supreme Court, and they upheld the judge's ruling. Much later, it came out that the artist of Knights of Horror was Joe Shuster, co creator of Superman. Frederick Wertham also objected to the sound effects in comics.

[Carol Tilley]

Like Klonk and Kaplash and Kerpow and Wump and Kafum. And then he says, that is the message. It means just what it says to the crudity of the expression corresponds to crudity in feeling, you know. He loved art. One of his objections to comics and one of the sort of minor arguments that he made for the damage that comics could do to a child's development is that the art was bad and.

[Phoebe Judge]

He took issue with specific characters.

[Carol Tilley]

He clearly, at one point, becomes obsessed with the idea that Batman and Robin will influence young boys to become homosexual. And he sees that as something that's extremely negative.

[Nadia Wilson]

He, for instance, believed that a character like Wonder Woman provided a lesbian role model for girl readers and became a figure that would terrify and emasculate young male readers.

[Phoebe Judge]

Carol Tilley is a comics historian.

[Nadia Wilson]

Some individuals within the psychiatric community thought he was a bit of a crank. He had a reputation for being difficult, for being standoffish. But there were a large number of folks within law enforcement, in religious education circles, in other types of education, social work, who did buy into the kinds of ideas that Wertham was advancing.

[Phoebe Judge]

In one trial transcript at the Library of Congress, you can see a lawyer questioning Frederick Wertham's methods. The lawyer doubted they were exact science.

[Carol Tilley]

And Wertham says, as exact as measles. Meaning that he is as precise as a doctor who's diagnosing a patient with measles.

[Phoebe Judge]

His ideas started gaining traction.

[Lauren Spohr]

He was interviewed on popular radio shows.

[Phoebe Judge]

And for magazines like Reader's Digestion.

[Lauren Spohr]

And people were burning comics.

[Nadia Wilson]

There were dozens of comics burnings, often sponsored by parochial schools or scouting groups or PTAs. You could get a new appropriate book for young readers. If you brought, say, 10 comics to be burned in the bonfire. That was the exchange. You often got a good book in place of the bad comics.

[Phoebe Judge]

It was around this time that the Senate announced they would hold hearings to investigate comics. They were flooded with letters from the public. Here's one from Don Robertson in Rock Hill, South Carolina.

[Nadia Wilson]

If you ban comic books, the FCBACA Stormtroopers. And then in parentheses it says, future Comic Book artist of America will storm the White House and steal every one of Ike's Golf club.

[Phoebe Judge]

In another letter written by three kids, there are annotations. Because the senators couldn't understand the slang, the kids used someone, we aren't sure who tried to translate the slang. One part of the letter refers to the quote, hubcaps who are complaining.

[Nadia Wilson]

The translated version is those big shots who are complaining about the literature have never even read one.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Senate received more than 500 letters.

[Adam Berenbach]

So these are mostly, you can see they identify themselves as boys somewhere between 9 to 16 years old.

[Lauren Spohr]

Now, I like this one because it says, I have been reading comic books for seven to nine years. Every kind of book that was written. I have never robbed a bank or thinks like that.

[Adam Berenbach]

Looks like he's been reading books for seven to nine years and he is 14 years old.

[Phoebe Judge]

I'm a fan of Don Cunningham.

[Lauren Spohr]

Don is from Hot Spring, Arkansas. Could you just read Don's note?

[Adam Berenbach]

It's one of my favorites. Gentlemen, I'm a boy of 16 and I'm old enough to know that a lot of nonsense is going on in this. This nonsense about comic books is a lot of harmless nothing. Now, you'll probably throw this away without reading the rest of it and say, humph, these miners, what will they think up next? Well, I don't care what you say. I say if you banned and he writes the word banned, B, A N D comic books out. You'll destroy American youth, as you say comic books do. I haven't got proof. But I'll tell you what is really the cause of all this youth killing you hear about on the radio and tv and it's these murder and crime programs on radio and tv. And another thing I read in a magazine on how you to make your own atomic bomb. And this was not a comic book. As I said before, if you banned band comic books out, any kind, you'll destroy American youth and maybe destroy the future world. Yours very truly, Don Cunningham. P.S. i hope you'll think about this very hard until the rest of your subcommittee too. Thanks. P.S. for the sake of American youth.

[Phoebe Judge]

The hearings aired on TV led by a Democrat Named Estes Kefauver. They started on April 21, 1954.

[Frederick Wertham]

We are not a subcommittee of blue nose censors. We have no preconceived notions as to the possible need for new legislation. At this point. We want to find out what damage, if any, is being done to our children's minds. This, and this only, is the task at hand.

[Phoebe Judge]

They started going through comics one by one.

[Frederick Wertham]

In this particular issue called Frisco, Mary concerns in attracting and glamorous young woman. Who gains control of a California underworld gang. Our next picture shows Mary emptying her submachine gun into the body of an already wounded police officer. Now, in all fairness, it should be added that Mary finally dies in the gas chamber. Following a violent and lucrative criminal career.

[Phoebe Judge]

The senators looked at scene after scene.

[Frederick Wertham]

Snatching a gun from the night table. Lucy shoots and kills her father from the window. She then runs out into the yard and presses the gun into the hand of her mother. Who has fainted and lies unconscious on the ground. The latter two pictures show Lucy's joy and contentment. That it had all worked out as she had planned. And that she is now free to live with her Aunt Kate.

[Phoebe Judge]

The New Yorker said the star witness of the hearings was Frederick Wertham.

[Josh Levy]

I have seen children who've stolen a quarter. I have seen children who've stolen $30,000.

[Phoebe Judge]

He told the committee. Children were using comic books as how to manuals for crime.

[Josh Levy]

Children nowadays, they make maps. This is the street where the stories that we're going to open. This is where we want to hide. And this is how we get away. If you don't know the method, you can't execute the act. And the method itself is so intriguing and so interesting. That the children are very apt to permit it.

[Frederick Wertham]

Well, in some of the comic books, the villain made one mistake. He almost committed a perfect cr. But he made one mistake and maybe got caught, Correct?

[Josh Levy]

That is absolutely correct, Senator. In fact, that is the whole philosophy of crime comic books. The point is not don't commit any crime. But the point is don't make any mistakes. Don't leave any matches there. Don't leave the light on. Don't make any noise or don't break the glass. Loud.

[Phoebe Judge]

But the Senate also asked people who made comics to speak. One man in particular, Bill Gaines, who ran EC Comics, got a lot of attention. Here's Adam Barenbach at the National Archives.

[Adam Berenbach]

The crime suspense stories cover right there is actually the comic that was held up in the hearing. So Bill Gaines was on the stand And I believe it's Kefauver who's interviewing him. And Kefauver holds up that particular book in which there is a man holding what appears to be a woman's head that had just been hacked off with an axe. And he asked Gaines, do you think that this is in good taste? Do you think this cover is in good taste? And Gaines replied rather snarkily for a horror comic, I think it is.

[Phoebe Judge]

Here's Bill Gaines.

[Frederick Wertham]

A cover in bad taste, for example, might be defined as holding the head a little higher so that the neck could be seen dripping from it and moving the body over a little further so that the neck of the body could be seen to be bloody. Well, you've got blood coming out of her mouth. You see a little. Then here's blood on the ax that hatches. I think most adults are shocked by that. This is the July one. Seems to be a man with a woman in the boat and he's choking her to death here. With a crowbar. With a crowbar. Is that in good taste? You? I think so.

[Phoebe Judge]

We'll be right back. Support for Criminal comes from Quince. Quince has high quality bedding made with materials like European linen and organic cotton for a five star hotel feel. You can upgrade your bedding for winter with their ultra plush duvets, quilts, pillows and shams, all priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That's because Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman by partnering directly with top companies and passing the savings onto you. I have the European linen box quilt and it's the perfect weight, both breathable and insulating, easy to machine wash and dry and looks very good.

[Lauren Spohr]

You can turn up the luxury when.

[Phoebe Judge]

You turn in with quince. Go to quince.com phoebe to get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order. That's Q U I n c e.com Phoebe for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Phoebe support for criminal comes from Shutterfly. I'm someone who misses having printed pictures to look at.

[Lauren Spohr]

I take all kinds of pictures on my phone and then they just stay trapped there. This year I'm going to go through the photos I've taken and upload the.

[Phoebe Judge]

Good ones of my family and my friends to Shutterfly and I'm going to order prints and then I'm going to put the prints in frames and give them as gifts. I can't imagine a nicer gift to receive. Shutterfly even has the frames they make it very easy. You could make a custom Christmas ornament.

[Lauren Spohr]

You could design a custom wall calendar or one of those nice looking easel.

[Phoebe Judge]

Calendars with a nice heavy paper. You could design custom post it notes.

[Lauren Spohr]

For someone or give them an iPhone case with a photo of their dog on it. Visit shutterfly.com and start customizing today.

[Phoebe Judge]

Get 40% off your Shutterfly order with promo code criminal40 and send something meaningful this year.

[Lauren Spohr]

Get free shipping on qualified orders. See their site for more details.

[Phoebe Judge]

The 1954 Senate comic book hearings ended in June, but the committee didn't issue a report on what they'd found until March of the next year. They didn't propose any new laws saying that would be censorship. But it didn't matter. By then, comics had already changed because comic book publishers were so afraid of public opinion turning against them.

[Saladin Ahmed]

The comics industry basically decides to self regulate and says, no, no, no, you don't need to shut us down. We'll make comics that you like.

[Phoebe Judge]

Saladin Ahmed.

[Saladin Ahmed]

And they get a conservative judge to kind of help write this code that defines what's allowed and what's not allowed in order to get the stamp approved by the comics Code.

[Phoebe Judge]

The comics code was a list of rules. If you followed them, you could sell your comic.

[Lauren Spohr]

The first rule of the code was.

[Phoebe Judge]

Crime shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals. Another read. In every instance, good shall triumph over evil and the criminal punished for his misdeeds.

[Saladin Ahmed]

It literally says that the police can't be wrong, right? The criminal has to be punished. The police have to be shown to be right. People forget this because we always assume that like loving the police is some traditional quote unquote thing. But when you look at 1930s movies about detectives where the detective's a hero, police are usually assholes, you know, and they're usually either incompetent or malicious, at least as often as they're helpful or well intentioned. And you know, there's a fair amount of that in like, you know, 1940s comics. The cops are not universally to be trusted in these comics. And that changes sharply in the 50s because that's one of the provisions in the code is that, you know, it has to consist consistently should be shown that crime does not pay and that the state is right, for lack of a more subtle term.

[Phoebe Judge]

Comics couldn't use the words horror or terror in titles anymore. And if you wanted to put the word crime on a cover. It couldn't be a lot bigger than the other words in the title. Vampires and werewolves were banned, and the code said, quote, females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.

[Saladin Ahmed]

It literally specifies how much you can see, how much skin you can see.

[Phoebe Judge]

The judge running the comics code authority told a reporter that changes were made in 25% of the drawings to de emphasize feminine curves. Quote, sexual abnormalities were also banned.

[Saladin Ahmed]

There was a lot of kind of queer panic around Batman.

[Phoebe Judge]

Publishers introduced Kathy Kane, Batwoman, as a love interest for Batman.

[Saladin Ahmed]

Various things were done to the bat family at various times to try and make that less. Less gay, quote, unquote. And, you know, there are lots of panels of pre code comics where Batman and Robin are in bed together. Now, is it supposed to be sexy? I don't think so. But it's. To me, that says something about what readers felt was available as a reading. Right. If they were taking that seriously, we can laugh at it. But it's also like, hey, you know, maybe folks felt like that was available to them as a reading of this stuff before we clamped down on all of that.

[Phoebe Judge]

They also made wonder Woman more interested in getting married and shopping.

[Nadia Wilson]

She became much more domestic and much less of a conventional superhero.

[Phoebe Judge]

The comics code tried to address some of Frederick Wertham's concerns about racism in comics. They wrote a rule that said ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible.

[Saladin Ahmed]

But really what that ended up meaning was that people of color disappear completely from comics. Some of those depictions deserved to disappear, But I think we'd probably be a bit further along in the industry now if folks had sort of stumbled through some things back then instead of just kind of having it completely shoved off the table.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 1953, before the Code EC Comics ran a story about an astronaut traveling to a planet of robots to evaluate whether the planet should be allowed to join a galactic alliance. The astronaut discovers the robot's world is segregated by color blue and orange, and decides that they can't be allowed to join. At the end of the story, he removes his helmet, revealing that he's a black man. After the Code EC comics decided to reprint that story. But the comics Code authority said they would need to make the astronaut white. The summer after the Senate hearings, 15 comics publishers went out of business to people who read and wrote comics. Frederick Wertham became a villain. In 1983, one historian and comics fan said, we hate Wertham. Despise him. People drew parodies of him. Like Dr. Frederick Worthless or in the story Freddy Wertham Goes to Hell. Did Frederick Wertham think he had won?

[Nadia Wilson]

He didn't. He really hoped that the government would find a way of restricting sales of comics to kids ages 12 and younger. He never felt like he had achieved any kind of victory.

[Phoebe Judge]

The code stayed in place for decades. It was still around when Saladin Ahmed was growing up.

[Saladin Ahmed]

Pretty much everything you found was going to have that stamp on it. And I had no idea what it meant. It was just part of the COVID dress. That meant nothing to me as a kid.

[Phoebe Judge]

He says that by the 90s, people didn't care very much about the comics code.

[Saladin Ahmed]

It sort of died a slow death by that point. It was really not super powerful anymore.

[Phoebe Judge]

Anyway, in 2011, it was officially done. Two of the last publishers that were still following the comics code, Archie and DC Comics, announced they were dropping it.

[Lauren Spohr]

Are comic book writers still up against some sort of code? What is acceptable and what is not?

[Saladin Ahmed]

Oh, 1,000%, yeah. If I'm writing a Marvel comic. If I'm writing a DC comic, yeah. I mean, there's literally what they call an S and P department, standards and practices that takes a look and says, and it's character specific sometimes. Right. So in a Spider man comic, depending on the title and the age rating, a bad guy might be able to say, go to hell. But Spider man cannot say that. Right? Because, so it's because he's too sweet, he's a good guy. And I mean, I've certainly floated stories that got shut down basically because they were a little too relevant. And your sort of challenge is to try and tell relevant stories that matter within those confines.

[Lauren Spohr]

Would you let your kids read Golden Age comics?

[Saladin Ahmed]

Yeah, absolutely. I think they would come to me and find the storytelling a little unsophisticated, maybe find them racist and sexist. You know, kids are incredible critics these days. I have 13 year old twins and they're both incredibly sophisticated viewers, readers. So I certainly wouldn't keep it from them. But I, I, I don't think they'd be up to snuff for them.

[Phoebe Judge]

Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susannah Roberson, Jackie Sagico, Lily Clark, Lena Silason and Megan Kinane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter the recordings of the Senate hearings in this episode are courtesy of the New York City Municipal Archives.

[Lauren Spohr]

And we do hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus.

[Phoebe Judge]

Right now, you can get 20% off an annual membership with the promo code.

[Lauren Spohr]

Thanks.

[Phoebe Judge]

Keep listening at the end of this episode to hear one of our bonus episodes with me and Lauren Spohr. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com plus we're on Facebook and Twitter criminalshow and Instagram @ criminalpodcast. We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com criminalpodcast criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge.

[Lauren Spohr]

This is Criminal.

[Phoebe Judge]

Welcome to Criminal Plus.

[Lauren Spohr]

I'm Phoebe Judge.

[Katie Bishop]

I'm Lauren Spohr. And Lauren, I'm a little injured, down for the count.

[Lauren Spohr]

But you're supposed to ask, what's wrong.

[Katie Bishop]

Phoebe, what happened?

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, thank you for asking. I moved in the wrong way and I've hurt my back. And I'll tell you, for someone who likes to be as Johnny on the spot and up and up and go as me, I don't like this. I feel very restricted in walking and everything. I can barely sit in a chair.

[Katie Bishop]

Well, what I said to you when we talked about this earlier today and even earlier today and yesterday was this sounds to me like God doing for you what you could not do for yourself, which is just sit still for a minute and enjoy your summer sitting still. Just like a little rest, you know, not the worst thing in the world, you know.

[Lauren Spohr]

One thing I will say, though, that has made me realize it is good to have a back brace in your home. You don't.

[Katie Bishop]

Handy.

[Lauren Spohr]

Handy. You don't know if you're ever gonna need it, but it costs about $14 at CVS, and I have one and I. And it also kind of gives you the feeling of what it must been like, you know, 120 years ago when women were wearing corsets. You know, I mean, a lot of different feelings I'm getting wearing this back brace. I don't think it's doing anything to help me, but it is a little stability.

[Katie Bishop]

This reminds me that we had a fabulous how to session last week with Lena Silason, who is Danish. And apparently people in Denmark received a notification from the government that they should prepare themselves for three to four days of no electricity. And so Lena was so funny about this, and she said that she was sort of rolling her eyes and not taking it that seriously. And then she noticed that like people all around her family, people she thought were very level headed people, began to sort of accumulate water and do the things recommended. And so we had a wonderful session about things to have in your house in case you lose power for three to four days. And we were all absolutely riveted. We all assembled pretty robust shopping carts, I would say. And now what I think I hear you saying is maybe a back brace is a good thing to have in your emergency kit or in your home first aid kit.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, as Lena was giving the presentation and this was in response, apparently a number of European countries are doing this to the ongoing fighting between Russia and Ukraine. And so as she was giving us the list of things we needed, I made my own shopping list. And I still have it in my hand right here. I wrote it on the back of an envelope. And the only thing I can see.

[Katie Bishop]

When you turn that around is wine.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, here's what was on my list for three to four days. Wine is to keep the spirits up, morale up. Is water. Spirits, water, food, batteries, cash, wine. And then it says eight food. Food for the dog, which people don't think about. You have to think about water for your pets and food for your pet.

[Katie Bishop]

Mm. I wrote down playing cards, which I thought was an excellent addition. As Lena said, you wanna keep spirits up in that way. She also said candles. And you might say, I don't need flashlights and candles. But Lena pointed out that you might wanna be cozy. And I thought that was great.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, it was a great presentation.

[Katie Bishop]

Such a good presentation. We also, we talked about the tool that shatters your windshield, which I can't stop thinking about in we.

[Lauren Spohr]

After the presentation ended, we all started talking about our own things that we would put in. I actually said a bottle of BO not to drink. I mean you could drink it not to drink for fun, but rather to clean major wounds as kind of an antiseptic. But also.

[Katie Bishop]

And why bourbon and not just like regular alcohol from the store, more of like a wartime fantasy if it's bourbon.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, if you need to give someone some sort of pain medication or make them pass out, you can't give them the straight alcohol from the store. You've got to give them the big swig of bourbon. Then you get the stick, if you need it, put them between their teeth, and then you dump the rest of the bourbon on the wound. So that was my suggestion. Now Katie Bishop suggested something, a tool that's called Rescue Me. R E S Q M E. It's a Little tool that you keep on your keys and it's pointed in some way. It's not sharp, but it's pointed so that if you were to go over a bridge and needed to get out of your car that was sinking in the. In the water, or if you need to get into your car because you. Your baby's in there, your dog's in there and you've lost it, breaks the glass. It also has a cutter on it to cut your seatbelt if you can't get your seatbelt undone.

[Katie Bishop]

But also maybe you have this tool and if you see someone trapped in their car, you can break their. If you see an animal trapped in a car, you could shatter someone else's windshield from the outside. I was fascinated by this tool. I'd never heard of it before. So it was a really fun hello time session.

[Lauren Spohr]

It's about 1099, so.

[Katie Bishop]

And it gets less than that.

[Lauren Spohr]

It's worth it. Whatever it is, it's worth it. Just one more thing that we did learn and that the Danish government was recommending is that in case of a nuclear.

[Phoebe Judge]

Say that word.

[Katie Bishop]

Nuclear.

[Lauren Spohr]

Do I seem like Dan Quayle or George Bush? Nuclear. Nuclear attack. They're recommending iodine supplements to help with radiation poisoning and cancer. Except if you're over 40, don't worry about it. It's not gonna do anything.

[Katie Bishop]

Just say bye, say your goodbyes.

[Lauren Spohr]

So Lauren and I did not purchase any iodine tablets, but if you're under 40, you might wanna throw those into your cart. There's a lot of them on Amazon. So again, we're having these wonderful summer sessions. Lena did a great job and I'm really.

[Katie Bishop]

She also very funny.

[Lauren Spohr]

I'm really looking forward to the summer session that we're having tomorrow, which is Veronica Simonetti teaching us another pretty good life skill, which is how to read tarot.

[Katie Bishop]

I have spent my whole life avoiding tarot because I don't want to be told anything remotely upsetting at any time. So this is something I know nothing about and I've strategically avoided. And when friends have said, do you want to do tarot? I said, no, thanks. So I'll be cautiously participating tomorrow.

[Lauren Spohr]

I mean, I don't wanna have tarot done to me, but I would like to know the skills. How to do tarot to someone else.

[Phoebe Judge]

Is how I feel about it.

[Katie Bishop]

You know what I was thinking about this morning is, remember when we went to the Lake District and I was, like, on the ground, rolling around with the sheep? And then like, later in the day, you were like, there's something going on with your makeup. Do you remember that? Cause I had, like, orange Lana.

[Lauren Spohr]

Lana all over me.

[Katie Bishop]

And I was like, do you think I've been wearing heavy foundation for the last 10 years of knowing each other? And I was like, I'm not wearing any makeup, but I had this, like, orange slime all over my face.

[Lauren Spohr]

It wasn't slime. I think it's called lanolin. I don't know why I know that from sheep's wool. I also. Lauren, the smell in the car was so wild, and. Because when we saw those sheep, you were so. You were down. It was like you were one of their babies. You were so down. It was so special on the ground with them. And then you were just covered. Your face was orange with sheep lanolin from their dirty wool. And then we had to drive all the way to Manchester that, you know.

[Katie Bishop]

With me smelling like a barn.

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah, it did smell like a barn in that car. I would.

[Katie Bishop]

I hope to go back there someday.

[Lauren Spohr]

Me too. I would love to go. I would love to go.

[Katie Bishop]

I felt so happy there.

[Lauren Spohr]

Did you just feel like you were a character in a Jane Austen novel?

[Katie Bishop]

Yeah, like I was in Sense and Sensibility in the rain.

[Lauren Spohr]

You were Mary Ann running down the hill trying to find Willoughby.

[Katie Bishop]

I mean, I've had that curly bangs haircut on and off for a long time.

[Lauren Spohr]

Just have it shows up every once in a while. So last time we. Lauren, you weren't with us. Susannah Roberson and I were on the road flying through eastern North Carolina, coming back from a good day of interviews, and she guest hosted, Stood in your place. I think she did a wonderful job. Wonderful, fantastic job.

[Katie Bishop]

But it was a pleasure for me to get to be a listener.

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah. And. But what we talked about last time was that you had kind of created your top five starter pack for people new to Criminal. The episodes that you think they should get started with.

[Katie Bishop]

Stop calling it my top five. It's, like, not my top. It's very hard for me to say what my top five episodes are, but.

[Lauren Spohr]

It wouldn't be my top five starter pack.

[Katie Bishop]

The point. The point of it was I had this dear friend who's an extremely beautiful painter, and we. We met first year. First semester of our first year in college at Florida State University. And we were talking on the phone, and he said, I have to admit that I've never listened to Criminal. And then I was like, it's fine. Who cares? And then he. And then he said, would you send me, like, a few episodes? You think I Should start with. And then I thought, okay, this is great. So it's more like sort of introductory. It's like sort of like to let. To let someone know, like, this is the type of show that it is. So I picked ones that I thought were kind of fun or ones that like, I really remember making or that had a lot of twists or, you know, that were sort of a sideways look at crime.

[Lauren Spohr]

So one of your episodes was Vanish.

[Katie Bishop]

Yeah, and then. Oh yeah. And then I tried to like summarize them for him in like little like one liners. So for the. I picked from Vanish, I said like a guy fakes his own death to see who comes to his funeral.

[Phoebe Judge]

That's a good episode. Linda.

[Katie Bishop]

Linda is very memorable to me. It's about a woman who hires a hitman to kill her ex husband. And then the hitman. So she hires a second hitman to kill the first hitman.

[Phoebe Judge]

Okay.

[Katie Bishop]

And what's amazing about that episode is we have tons of audio of Linda being surreptitiously recorded. So you're able to hear her make these phone calls to these men to arrange these things. And you can hear the sort of like veiled ways in which she makes these requests. It's very memorable to me.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Manual.

[Katie Bishop]

The Manual is my number one favorite piece of art. Made by Julianne Alexander. It's a payphone done in this incredible 1980s style. But a man is accused of murdering his family. And then in his home during the investigation they find this like, so called like murder Manual. This how to book. And the author is a mystery. And then that book becomes an important piece of evidence and then becomes the subject of a subsequent legal battle about the sort of our sort of first amendment rights around having a book that teaches you how to commit a murder.

[Lauren Spohr]

420 famous episode.

[Katie Bishop]

Famous episode. It's just like we just asked ourselves, like, why is it called why is weed referred to as 420? Like, how did those two things become associated? And then we surprised ourselves. And also, Phoebe, your dad makes an appearance in that episode.

[Lauren Spohr]

Tony Judge cameo. That's a very funny episode. And then the last, your last starter pick, which I totally agree with this one is all the time in the World, which is the episode we did when we went to the body farm in Texas. And I would say not only is that just a great episode to listen to, but it's one that we hear about still often from criminal listeners and one of the most memorable reporting trips we've ever done because we actually toured not only the facilities and the labs, but the actual farm, the actual land where bodies were decomposing. And we've had a lot of people call in about this episode lately. And I think, you know, one of the things that people have said they remembered is I was. I was walking with Dr. Danny Westcott, who was, you know, the head of the facility and showing us the bodies. And Lauren was there, and also Nadia Wilson, our senior producer. But because I was holding the microphone, I had to. And I was with Danny, I had to be very, very close to him. So I really. I really was up close to these bodies. Incredibly close. And one of the things we hear people talk about is I was recording when we got there, and I kept recording. And so I think we have a clip of my reaction to kind of seeing these bodies for the first time.

[J]

You can see the maggots pretty active at this stage. And then. So this person has gone through bloat, you guys, right?

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah, but this is wild stuff. This is wild stuff. I don't think many people in their lives see stuff like this. And, Lauren, you know, I remember when we left, we had rented a minivan.

[Phoebe Judge]

I remember that.

[Lauren Spohr]

We flew into Austin. We rented a minivan. And I remember the drive back from the center to Austin. And do you remember it was kind of an odd drive back?

[Katie Bishop]

Yeah. I mean, I think we were all pretty. Like, it was like we were stoned. Like, it was. So we had just had this, like, wild experience. I mean, I remember there being some, like, tension in the van before the interviews. Like, I think we were nervous going in.

[Lauren Spohr]

I didn't want to see it.

[Katie Bishop]

And then I think afterwards, we were, like, completely zonked.

[Lauren Spohr]

And I. I wasn't planning on seeing. Seeing a body. I. I had kind of said, I. I don't want. I don't want to see this. And then I really saw it.

[Katie Bishop]

I. A lot of people have written in to say that after hearing our episode, they want to donate, which I think is really interesting.

[Phoebe Judge]

And you.

[Lauren Spohr]

And you said, Lauren, after visiting, that you wanted to donate your body.

[Katie Bishop]

Yes, but then you suggested that I get buried at the pet cemetery with my dog, Ardell. And I'm a little intrigued by that option.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, we actually. We've been hearing about this episode so often recently, and, Lauren, you picked it. So we decided to call Dr. Danny Westcott at the center to just kind of check in with him and see how things are going. Hi, Dr. Westcott, are you there?

[J]

Hi, how are you?

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, fine. Well, we're talking to you because we've been Asking people at some of our favorite episodes, their favorite episodes that we've ever done of Criminal. And we've done, you know, a lot of them and all the time in the world, the episode we did about our visit to is always up there at the top. And so, you know, one of the things people have asked us over the years is what is it like for him to work in that situation, you know, around these bodies. What is the typical reaction when you tell people what you do?

[J]

So usually I get one of two either they are very interested in it and think that it's really kind of cool thing, or they don't to talk about it at all.

[Lauren Spohr]

They just want to just deny that this, that this, that the death occurs.

[J]

Yeah, it's more. Yeah, there's just that it kind of the idea of talking about it doesn't. Doesn't set well with them. So they would just soon not hear about it.

[Phoebe Judge]

And what are.

[Lauren Spohr]

I mean, I know what my reaction was when you showed me those bodies very up close. But what is the typical reaction for people who are coming to the body Farm as first time you know, interns or students or you know, journalists? Are people shocked.

[J]

Most of the time? Not especially the students. The students, I think, have an idea of what to expect. And, you know, they're kind of usually, especially our students are kind of eased into it in the fact that they, you know, start out processing so they, they get involved with it in that sense. But it's actually, yeah, usually not as bad as most people think it's going to be. And so we usually don't have, you know, a big problem. Therefore, occasionally you'll get a student that doesn't, you know, that realizes that this is not the career for them based on coming out there for reporters and other people there. Again, I think most of them find it pretty fascinating and less, you know, on the gross side, I guess.

[Katie Bishop]

I mean, we felt really lucky that you let us come. You know, I mean, I think we understood that it was something that not that many people get to see. And it was, I think it actually was well suited for radio also because we could sort of take the listener up close, but maybe not further than they'd like to go. You know what I mean? I wonder what's changed for you and your work since 2017.

[J]

Well, we've been, we've expanded quite a bit. We actually. The skeletal lab has moved to a new facility just down the road. But we tripled inside, so we have a nice new skeletal lab which, you know, facilitates our Growing skeletal collection. We're up to almost 900 donors that we've received so far.

[Katie Bishop]

Wow.

[J]

And then we also started a PhD program. Since we talked last, we've. And we've expanded the training portions a lot. We've. So, for example, we now do a fire death investigation course every year. And we have a big research project behind that as well on developing standards and protocols. And then also you know, trying to get different, you know, like crime scene investigators and firefighters and anthropologists at all working together and understanding what each other are doing.

[Katie Bishop]

So the fire, does that mean you're, you're lighting bodies on fire?

[J]

Yes. So the in for the fire investigation course we do typically three different ways. So we do what, what's kind of a typical house or internal, you know, fire. So we actually set up these little pods that we build that we set them up as hotel rooms. And then we start the fire. We set, you know, we set the body up in different scenarios. We start a fire and then we, you know, we film all this stuff and we record everything that's going on. All the temperature data for the, for the body itself, but also for the room. And we, for the pods, we typically burn them for 14 minutes. And the reason for that is that the national response time for, for firefighters is eight minutes. And it typically takes them six minutes to put the fire out. That's where the 14 minutes comes from. And so then firefighters and crime scene investigators and stuff that are taking the courses, it gives them a chance to be exposed to burned remains, but they also have to figure out, work together to figure out what happened. And then the nice thing is at the end we get to show them what happened. We also do car fires as well. And in those cases that, you know, we have one that's running and one that's not frequently. So they have to kind of figure that kind of stuff out as well. And then we also then will do different scenarios depending on kind of what's going on kind of at the, at the current time. So we've done, for example, a trash can fire with body in it. We've done trash dump fires because that's one of the things that anthropologists are involved in a lot. So different things that are realistic and give people this training and a chance to experience what's going on and then, you know, actually be able to see what happened, the events that actually occurred.

[Lauren Spohr]

I wonder, you know, you're in, you're in Texas, so it's always hot. It was hot when we came to see you, but I Wonder if the weather getting hotter as I think we're seeing all over the country, is that having impact on what you're seeing with the bodies?

[J]

It is so actually interesting you say that. I just had a student that finished her master's project. She just actually graduated this in May. And one of the things that she did was she went back and looked at 10 years worth of decomposition data and analyze that and she actually found there are significant changes in the years and it all is associated or the only thing that really stood out was the mean annual temperature. And so as the temperature is increasing, the rate of decomposition is also increasing.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, I was so fascinated when we.

[Lauren Spohr]

Got there and maybe I'm wrong about this, but what I remembered is that if you plan to donate your body to, to the facility, you actually are never able to go and see the facility and see where your body will lie. Is that still true and is that true?

[J]

That is true. I mean we don't let, we typically don't let people into the facility unless they're researchers, but people can come and visit what they would, where they'll be as far as the skeleton goes. And so we still do that. We have people that come in and, and we give tours of the skeltal lab. As a matter of fact, we even have family members that come and visit the skeltal remains.

[Katie Bishop]

Wow. Has anything changed? I feel like there's been more and more sort of awareness of the work that you do in other facilities around the country. Has anything changed about the way that you like if a prospective donor calls and says, I'm interested in learning more, has anything changed about how you sort of prepare people for what to expect?

[J]

No, not really. I mean we are probably go over details a little more as far as like all the possible things that they might be utilized research wise. One of the things that we have always done, but we're probably better about it now and that is that we keep record of everything that every study or education, purpose or training that a donor's body is used in. And so the families can contact us and we'll give them information about what their loved one was used for.

[Katie Bishop]

Have you ever had a family approach you and they were so annoying that you thought, I don't want to work with them.

[J]

Occasionally?

[Josh Levy]

Yes.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, I want to thank you so much for taking this time. It was great to catch up with you and that episode we did with you has really stood stuck with people these many years later. So thanks again. And I know you've got a lot of work to do. So we'll let you go back to it.

[J]

Okay. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I very much enjoyed doing that podcast. And I remember walking around with Phoebe very well.

[Lauren Spohr]

Oh, don't. How could I forget it? How could I? Thanks so much. Nice to talk to you. And I'm glad to hear all as well.

[J]

All right, you too. Thank you.

[Lauren Spohr]

Bye. Bye. Bye.

[Katie Bishop]

Phoebe, that arson stuff is interesting.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah, it's really interesting.

[Katie Bishop]

I was like, should we go back?

[Phoebe Judge]

I guess we could go back.

[Katie Bishop]

I mean, that's really. That's like a whole other dimension, and it's very relevant to our show. I don't know. We should talk about.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, arson stories, as we've talked about before, are very hard to do, and we've done some arson stories. What was the wonderful episode we did about the. Oh, it was so fascinating about the couple who were sent but that were.

[Phoebe Judge]

Setting fires all over Maryland.

[Lauren Spohr]

It was Delaware. That was a great episode.

[Katie Bishop]

I think it's called On Fire.

[Phoebe Judge]

Boy, she was wild.

[Lauren Spohr]

That was a good episode. So, Lauren, I think it's time for.

[Phoebe Judge]

Us to talk a little bit about.

[Lauren Spohr]

Some things we've been enjoying.

[Katie Bishop]

You wanna go first?

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah, I wanna go first. But before we started taping today, Lauren said, phoebe, we've talked enough about the weather. Don't talk about the weather. Don't talk about the season that we're in. Then she said something else I don't want you to talk about is hot dogs. As though I talk about hot dogs every episode. She said, I don't want to talk about dogs. She said, everybody has a dog. You aren't the only one who has a dog. You're not the only dog owner out there. Everyone loves their dog. Everyone thinks their dog is special. And I have been talking about my dog recently because my dog was injured, cut her foot on a clamshell, and I bought her a pair of shoes. And I just have to say that I think these shoes are fantastic. I bought the dog a pair of shoes. And so, Lauren, I'm just. I'm talking about the dog shoes for a second.

[Katie Bishop]

You're making me sound like a huge asshole. I'm just saying I also have them for myself. Like, I don't want to talk about running. I don't want to talk about sheet cake. You know? Like, I just want to.

[Lauren Spohr]

So your, for me, is seasons, hot dogs, and dogs. Those are the three things I can't talk about.

[Katie Bishop]

Yeah, and I love hearing about your dog, but I think you have the joie de vi? Ev of a brand New dog owner. So you're, this is your first time having a dog. So sometimes you forget that literally every producer on our team has a dog. So when you say things about your what it's like to have a dog, you forget that we all, we've all got them.

[Lauren Spohr]

Have you ever had to deal with a 95 pound dog who has an injured paw and is not allowed outside except on a leash for four, for four weeks?

[Katie Bishop]

I'm going to record for the Criminal plus audience some examples of the way Phoebe talks in our meetings where she'll be like, I don't know if I can do that because I have a dog.

[Lauren Spohr]

Lauren.

[Katie Bishop]

They beg me, I have to take care of this dog.

[Lauren Spohr]

You know what? They beg me to take a day off at Criminal Productions. Everyone would like if I hit the road for a little while anyway, so I got the dog. These Crocs, they're kind of Crocs and they're fantastic and she loves them and. But we'll put a picture up of Ayton Cross.

[Katie Bishop]

Does she really love them?

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah, she doesn't. She was prancing a little bit when I first put them on her but.

[Katie Bishop]

She, she doesn't try to get them off.

[Phoebe Judge]

I think she enjoys them.

[Katie Bishop]

I've always thought if I lived in New York City I would want to put shoes on my dog so then my dog could get in my bed and I wouldn't feel like I was like licking the sidewalk, you know.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, these are protective.

[Lauren Spohr]

This is just protective. So we don't go through it. We just went through ever again. And I'm going to recommend, I think they're called Wagner Wag Craw. I don't even know what they're called but we'll put a picture up. They work really well. They're staying on her. For all you dog owners out there, they stay on.

[Katie Bishop]

Someone should make a dog accessories company called Wagamuffin. Wouldn't that be cute? I'm going to patent that after this recording.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, tell them about your other business idea. Lauren called me up yesterday and said, she said I have our next business venture. And I said, okay, what is it, Lauren?

[Phoebe Judge]

And she said a new salon.

[Lauren Spohr]

We're going to open a new chain of salons.

[Katie Bishop]

It's called Quickie.

[Phoebe Judge]

Called Quickie.

[Lauren Spohr]

And what can you give?

[Katie Bishop]

Why don't you. Yes, every service takes a very small amount of time.

[Lauren Spohr]

So it's for busy people who like.

[Katie Bishop]

Very busy people who like to have.

[Lauren Spohr]

The experience of the facial or getting your nails done but don't getting Your.

[Katie Bishop]

Teeth whitened, getting your eyebrows waxed, getting. I don't know what else yet. But, like, things that are nice and fun to do, but it's not even about being busy, as it might be a little bit about an attention span situation. But, like, I don't. I went and got a manicure and a pedicure, and it took two hours.

[Lauren Spohr]

I know. I. I don't want to be crass, but I've heard that word used in other contexts.

[Katie Bishop]

Quickie.

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah. So is it kind of a play?

[Katie Bishop]

Sex sells. Sex sells. No. I don't know. I just think, like, I think that if you could. If you knew. And another thing that both you and I value highly is things that start on time.

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah. Well, that is true.

[Katie Bishop]

If you could make it. If you could make an appointment online to go and get, let's say, a facial, and it was going to start exactly on time and it was only going to take one hour. I think people would pay a premium to know that this was going to be a limited time experience. Or, like, maybe you can get your nails and your toes done at the same time and, like, you'll pay more, but the whole experience will take less time. You can make an appointment and it will start exactly when you think it's gonna start. I don't know. I think this is a good idea. We're just spilling our secrets.

[Lauren Spohr]

I know. Well, I hope.

[Katie Bishop]

I mean, like, a haircut sometimes can take. Your haircuts can take like an hour and a half. Cause you have so much hair.

[Lauren Spohr]

I take two. Well, I only get a cut like twice a year or two. Well, okay, so if you have any thoughts about our new business called Quickie Quickie, let us know. We've got a lot of business ideas floating around at. And very few of them actually have to do with podcasts, so we're always.

[Phoebe Judge]

Coming up with new ideas.

[Lauren Spohr]

Remember, Lauren, your bar named Bottles and Cans?

[Katie Bishop]

I have a bar. I'm going to open a cheese shop called Mousetrap. I'm going to open a bookstore. I haven't figured out the title for that one yet, but I think my. In my next life, I want to do something that involves, like, a brick and mortar. I want to be standing behind a counter. You know, that's my number one goal. I want to stand behind a counter. And when you come in, I want to say hello.

[Lauren Spohr]

And you know, my favorite thing in the world is to. Is commerce, is to actually sell something. So I'm gonna be on QVC selling and demonstrating food products. And you'll be behind the counter at Mousetrap and everyone will be happy. How about a couple of things we've been enjoying?

[Katie Bishop]

We already did the dog shoes.

[Lauren Spohr]

Okay, that wasn't something I've been enjoying.

[Katie Bishop]

Pardon moi?

[Lauren Spohr]

No, but that was an aside. Cause I've been, you know. So let's talk about a couple of things you've been enjoying.

[Katie Bishop]

My number one is berries. Been making breakfast every morning forlorn. I don't care. This is something I've really been enjoying. You know why cherries.

[Lauren Spohr]

So funny? I actually was going to say cherries. I actually was going to cherries and.

[Katie Bishop]

Didn'T fact check this. But someone told me that cherries have tryptophan. And so it's a great like nighttime snack, like right before bed. But every morning I've been cutting cherries and putting blueberries and blackberries in a thing of yogurt. And it's just absolutely wonderful. And it reminded me that I think one of the single nicest and most romantic things that someone can do for someone else.

[Lauren Spohr]

Chocolate covered strawberries. What? No, just kidding.

[Katie Bishop]

Is to make them a fruit plate. Like for someone else to like wash and cut fruit and put it on a plate for you. Maybe with some feta. I think that that's like one of the top three most romantic things I can think of.

[Lauren Spohr]

I don't, you know, when you say that to me, it's just I kind of freeze, you know, I think I'm a big acts of service type of gal. So, you know, someone doing something they really know you don't like to do is something I find to be very nice. You know, something like call the insurance company or what?

[Katie Bishop]

That's not very romantic.

[Phoebe Judge]

Fold my clothes.

[Katie Bishop]

Oh, yeah, that doesn't do anything for me. Like it's. That's a very nice thing for someone to do, but that doesn't feel romantic. Yeah, like I needed to feel a little frivolous.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, I don't like anything frivolous, so that wouldn't do anything for me.

[Katie Bishop]

But that's a pull quote for the website Phoebe Judge. I don't like anything frivolous.

[Lauren Spohr]

Something. I actually was going to say cherries too. Something I saw the other day that I've been thinking about a lot. I. I was actually, I took my. One of the things I like to do in the summer is I like.

[Phoebe Judge]

To take my books that I'm reading.

[Lauren Spohr]

For work and I like to go to the beach and I like to sit there and I like to read all these books and I also Watch people. And I was out there all by myself, and I saw this couple sitting off to my right, and they were very fit, incredibly fit, husband and wife. And they were drinking their water, and they're out there for a couple of hours, and I was just listening. I was pretending to read and also listening, which I'm very good at doing. And then all of a sudden, the wife brings out a bag of peas, kind of peas, sugar snap peas that she's eating as a snack. Very healthy. And then the man opens a cooler, and he brings out this little baggy Ziploc bag that has an avocado in it. And he's taken. The top of the avocado is gone. Just the little top of, you know, the egg. Right. If you think about it standing up on its end.

[Phoebe Judge]

And he uses a spoon and he.

[Lauren Spohr]

Eats the avocado inside the.

[Phoebe Judge]

The shell, inside the skin.

[Lauren Spohr]

He's eating the avocado with a spoon. And I thought, doesn't that sound like a wonderful, transportable snack?

[Phoebe Judge]

Snack, Healthy snack.

[Katie Bishop]

Have you tried it?

[Lauren Spohr]

It.

[Phoebe Judge]

I haven't tried it yet, but I've.

[Lauren Spohr]

Been thinking a lot about it.

[Katie Bishop]

What do you deal with the pet.

[Lauren Spohr]

I know. I think it has to be ripe, and I think you go around it with the spoon.

[Katie Bishop]

These people seem different from me.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, they seem. They're very healthy.

[Lauren Spohr]

Very. They're. They seem very. They were very healthy. Lauren, what's something else you've been enjoying? I've been enjoying the thought of. Even of eating an avocado like that.

[Katie Bishop]

I. It's funny, I purchased one avocado yesterday, and I was like, I got to work these in somehow into the mix. Something I've been enjoying is a sun hat by Solari. It's you. Oh, I can put it on for you. Ready? And put on over my headphones. It's linen. It has a ponytail holder. It has a gap for your ponytail to come out of it. And it's very lightweight and very comfortable. And I've been wearing it every day. Do you like how it looks?

[Lauren Spohr]

Can you, Katie Bishop, take a picture, a screenshot, so that we can just show that Lauren is wearing the sun hat? We can put this up.

[Katie Bishop]

Do you want to just look right over the head? Bones? But it's a green linen. It has a. It has a chin strap, if you'd like, and it also has a little strap on the back so you can tighten it around your head. But it's. I think it's probably the most comfortable way for me to feel like I'm Getting full coverage from the Sun Solari. I really. I really like it. And it has some sort of built in UPF factor of 50. It's expensive. It's like $60.

[Phoebe Judge]

But I recommend something I've been enjoying.

[Lauren Spohr]

Recently is a movie that, to me, is the epitome of summer. When I think about summer, I think about this movie and I recommend everyone. If you've seen it before, it doesn't matter. You'll be so happy to watch it again.

[Phoebe Judge]

Do you know what movie I'm gonna say? It's not Twister. It's the sandlot, Apollo 13.

[Lauren Spohr]

It's a fantastic. Everything about that movie is fantastic. And so I'm really recommending that you go and even if you've seen it seven times before, watch Apollo 13.

[Frederick Wertham]

It.

[Lauren Spohr]

You'll be happy you did.

[Katie Bishop]

You know what I've been watching? I've been watching Lost from the beginning. Did you ever watch it?

[Lauren Spohr]

Yeah, but I got a little. It's a lot. It got a little weird.

[Katie Bishop]

Yeah, it get. It's weird from episode one. But what I think I'm enjoying most about the rewatch is just remembering what my life was like the first time I watched it and, like, remembering where I was when I watched certain episodes. Okay. The third thing I've been enjoying is I found a new type of skin lotion by this company called Prequel, that's developed by a dermatologist. And it's very affordable. But I think I've typically been someone who thinks that body lotion is for losers. Like, who has time to put lotion on your arms or legs when you get out of the shower? Like, that has never been part of my life. But I started doing it with this prequel lotion, and it has actually made my skin, like, look and feel kind of a lot different. So I'm converted. And I think I appreciate that it's not overpriced Prequel.

[Phoebe Judge]

Something I've been enjoying is a bandana. Oh, not for fashion, for the heat.

[Lauren Spohr]

So it's a little hack that you can try. If you're going to be outside working in your garden, taking a walk, exercising, take a bandana and put it in cold water and then put it in your freezer. And before you go out, you're going to kind of wrap it around so it's, you know, tightly rolled. You're going to put it around your neck. And I was inspired by this by watching the Tour de France, which is over now, but which is really a sad situation for me because it's my favorite time of Year. But these guys are just putting water bottles in the back of their necks, you know, next to their jersey and letting them kind of frozen water bottles, letting them kind of melt. And I'm not going to do that. That seems a little dramatic for just taking the walk. But this is. The frozen bandana trick, I think is a really good hack that lets you be outside and Lord knows it's pretty hot out there and not have any worry about heat stroke.

[Katie Bishop]

That's a good idea.

[Phoebe Judge]

I think it's a pretty good idea.

[Lauren Spohr]

Can I just say one more hack before we go? We were talking about in Lena solicitation, going back to Lena Silason's presentation, which. How could you stop thinking about. There's so many things that she taught us in that presentation. I brought up one thing that I'm gonna say with summer storms and heat that I brought up to the group. And I think it's a pretty good trick that you can do, which is if you're worried about the power going out or if you're going on vacation and power does go out sometimes and then it, you know, comes back on. What you need to do is you need to take a solo cup, some sort of cup. It doesn't have to be that big. Fill it up with water, put it in your freezer and freeze it, and then put a quarter on the top of that frozen cup, that frozen water. When you get back from vacation or being out of your house for a few days, if the quarter has sunk any lower than the top of that water, where it means that the power has gone off and that the power into your refrigerator and freezer has gone up. And you might want to consider ditching the food.

[Katie Bishop]

I think that's a great tip.

[Lauren Spohr]

I think it's. I. I'm saying it. Cause I just. I think it's helpful for. Who knows about the iodine tablets. But this is a really easy trick you can do to just put it. Do it right now, put it in your freezer, and then forget about it. And it's a little insurance.

[Phoebe Judge]

Insurance.

[Katie Bishop]

When you grow up in the south, the freezer is already full of solo cups, but they're full of bacon grease. So everyone can think about that over the weekend.

[Lauren Spohr]

Well, I think we've. We've covered it all. Thanks very much everyone for listening.

[Katie Bishop]

That's a wrap.

[Lauren Spohr]

Bye bye, bye.

[Phoebe Judge]

Support for Criminal comes from Framed. John Grisham teams up with innocence advocate Jim McCluskey in their New York Times bestseller, Framed 10 True Stories of Innocent People.

[Lauren Spohr]

Framed for Murder in Framed you'll read about the incompetence, corruption and racism that.

[Phoebe Judge]

Contribute to wrongful conviction.

[Lauren Spohr]

And you'll be able to hear real people's stories as they fought for freedom against the odds.

[Phoebe Judge]

Read Framed by John Grisham and Jim McCluskey in stores now also available as an audiobook.

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