Tabatha

Summary

Summary of "Criminal" Podcast Episode: "Tabatha"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Criminal
• Host/Author: Vox Media Podcast Network
• Description: Criminal is a groundbreaking show that delves into stories about individuals who have done wrong, been wronged, or found themselves caught in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge, it was named a Best Podcast of 2023 by the New York Times.
• Episode: Tabatha
• Release Date: May 2, 2025

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1. Early Life and Family Responsibilities (01:11 - 02:00)

Tabitha Tramell introduces herself as the eldest of nine siblings, a role that required her to take on significant responsibilities from a young age. Growing up in Atlanta, Georgia, she navigated the challenges of her large family dynamic.

“I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia.” — Tabitha Tramell ([01:29])

As the eldest, Tabitha was accountable for her younger brothers and sisters, often bearing the emotional and practical burdens of raising them.

“I had to help raise them, so I was held accountable for their actions.” — Tabitha Tramell ([01:42])

2. Teenage Pregnancy and Disownment (02:00 - 04:14)

At 15, Tabitha became pregnant, an event that drastically altered her life trajectory. Coming from a devout Jehovah's Witness family, this news was met with severe repercussions.

“I was terrified because we grew up in a very religious family. We was Jehovah's Witness.” — Tabitha Tramell ([03:00])

Her mother disowned her upon discovering the pregnancy, forcing Tabitha to move in with her grandmother in a one-bedroom apartment. This period was marked by isolation and fear of ostracization from her religious community.

3. Introduction to Drug Dealing and First Arrest (04:14 - 07:36)

Living with her grandmother, Tabitha's uncle introduced her to selling marijuana. Despite her young age and pregnancy, she engaged in drug distribution, sourcing marijuana from her uncle and selling it to her peers.

“He knew he was giving it to me and I was bringing him money back for it.” — Tabitha Tramell ([04:35])

Her first arrest occurred when she sold drugs to an undercover agent while six months pregnant. At the Atlanta pre-trial detention center on Decatur Street, Tabitha faced the harsh realities of the criminal justice system.

“I was the youngest person in there.” — Tabitha Tramell ([05:44])

During this time, Tabitha experienced neglect and a lack of support, exacerbating her difficult circumstances.

4. Incarceration Experiences and Emotional Struggles (07:36 - 10:14)

Tabitha recounts her subsequent arrests and the emotional toll of frequent incarcerations. She describes the inhumane treatment from guards, including threats of solitary confinement and neglect of her basic needs during her postpartum period.

“They were threatened with solitary confinement when she complained about pain or asked to see a doctor.” — Phoebe Judge ([09:24])

Her interactions with older inmates provided some solace, as they offered emotional support and practical advice to cope with her situation.

5. Turning Point: Rehabilitation and New Purpose (10:14 - 11:19)

A pivotal moment occurred while Tabitha awaited transportation from Fulton County Jail to prison. Conversations with older inmates introduced her to a Christ-centered rehabilitation facility, inspiring her to seek a path toward normalcy and reform.

“I thought, wow, I'm gonna live like a normal person.” — Tabitha Tramell ([11:19])

This decision marked the beginning of a significant transformation in her life.

6. Becoming a Doula for Incarcerated Women (11:19 - 19:51)

Tabitha joined a program designed to help formerly incarcerated women find employment, where she discovered training to become a doula. Doulas are non-medical support persons who assist pregnant women and new mothers.

“It's a support person that helps you be in control of your labor.” — Tabitha Tramell ([14:43])

For seven years, Tabitha has been working as a doula, primarily assisting incarcerated women. She emphasizes the importance of emotional support, teaching coping mechanisms, and helping women navigate the complexities of the prison system.

“I treated her how I wanted to be treated when I was in that dark place.” — Tabitha Tramell ([16:53])

7. Testimony at the Senate Human Rights Subcommittee Hearing (23:43 - 26:04)

Tabitha testified at a Senate Human Rights Subcommittee hearing, sharing her personal experiences and highlighting the ongoing neglect and mistreatment of pregnant women in Georgia's jails and prisons.

“It hadn't changed since I've been there and I had to testify to those facts.” — Tabitha Tramell ([23:59])

Another woman, Tiana Hill, shared her harrowing story of mistreatment and the tragic loss of her child while incarcerated, reinforcing Tabitha's observations.

8. Legislative Impact and Ongoing Advocacy (26:04 - 33:22)

Inspired by the testimonies of Tabitha and others, Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff introduced a bill aimed at improving the treatment of pregnant women in custody. The bill seeks to mandate reporting on the number of pregnant inmates, the care they receive, and the outcomes of their pregnancies.

Tabitha continues her advocacy by helping women navigate the criminal justice system, reconnect with their children, and cope with the emotional strains of incarceration.

“You look at that picture. This is what I'm working toward.” — Tabitha Tramell ([26:41])

She also supports older women whose adult children have died, helping them find meaning and closure.

9. Personal Reflections and Legacy (29:40 - 33:22)

Reflecting on her own journey, Tabitha acknowledges the shame and guilt she felt during her pregnancies and incarcerations. By supporting others, she finds healing and a sense of purpose.

“It made me feel whole as a person again.” — Tabitha Tramell ([29:53])

Her efforts have led to successful reunifications between mothers and their children, providing hope and encouragement to those still confined.

“They call me Granny, too. Cause they hear my grandchildren call me Granny.” — Tabitha Tramell ([32:59])

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Notable Quotes with Speaker Attribution and Timestamps

• Tabitha Tramell ([01:29]): “I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([01:42]): “I had to help raise them, so I was held accountable for their actions.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([03:00]): “I was terrified because we grew up in a very religious family. We was Jehovah's Witness.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([04:35]): “He knew he was giving it to me and I was bringing him money back for it.”
• Phoebe Judge ([05:44]): “And they booked me in and I had to call my grandmother. I was the youngest person in there.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([14:43]): “It's a support person that helps you be in control of your labor.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([16:53]): “I treated her how I wanted to be treated when I was in that dark place.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([23:59]): “It hadn't changed since I've been there and I had to testify to those facts.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([26:41]): “You look at that picture. This is what I'm working toward.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([29:53]): “It made me feel whole as a person again.”
• Tabitha Tramell ([32:59]): “They call me Granny, too. Cause they hear my grandchildren call me Granny.”

---

Conclusion

The "Tabatha" episode of Criminal offers a profound and intimate look into Tabitha Tramell's life, showcasing her resilience in the face of adversity. From her challenging upbringing and early encounters with the criminal justice system to her transformation into a doula and advocate, Tabitha's story underscores the importance of support, empathy, and systemic change. Her advocacy work has not only impacted her own life but also brought attention to the critical issues faced by pregnant women in the incarceration system, prompting legislative action aimed at improving their treatment and care.

End of Summary

Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

Support for Criminal comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Another Simple Favor, a sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy thriller, A Simple Favor. Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively play friends and sometimes enemies. Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson. They're reunited in Italy when Emily asks Stephanie to be the maid of honor in her extravagant wedding on the island of Capri. But things don't go smoothly. There are revenge plots, twists, and unexpected deaths that get the FBI involved. They say you'll be watching on the edge of your seat. Watch Another Simple Favor. Only on Prime Video. Was there a point when you realized, I'm good at this.

[Tabitha Tramell]

I know I'm good at this. This is my calling. It ain't a whole lot of money. You know, we don't do it for the income. We do it for the outcome. My name is Tabitha Tramell. I was born and raised in Atlanta, Georgia.

[Phoebe Judge]

As a teenager, Tabitha took care of her eight brothers and sisters. So where were you in the lineup?

[Tabitha Tramell]

I am the oldest.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, wow. So you had babies all around you?

[Tabitha Tramell]

Yes, Stair steps. All of us are a year apart and I had to help raise them, so I was held accountable for their actions.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha says that when she was 15, she, she started skipping class and she also started dating someone from school.

[Tabitha Tramell]

He was in the band and I was in the orchestra and we had snuck off campus a couple of times. And then when I was at home, I just noticed I was feeling real sick. And then I used to mark my period on a certain time of the month. I keep up with the calendar, you know, and I noticed it didn't come. I missed a month and I was so nervous. I didn't tell nobody but my best girlfriend compared to today, I was really skinny and we had a lot of Goodwill clothes because we was very poor and a lot of people used to give us donate us clothes and stuff. So that worked to my advantage because I used to put on big shirts and stuff.

[Phoebe Judge]

And what were you thinking? Were you thinking at 15, I don't know what to do Here, I don't know how to. I mean, I guess you didn't know what it was like to have little babies around.

[Tabitha Tramell]

But I was terrified because we grew up in a very religious family. We was Jehovah's Witness. And you know, when that. Something of that nature of magnitude happened, you will be isolated from the church and people are not supposed to speak to you. They call it disassociated. Each month went by. I was just scared. My mother came to me one day and said. One of the ladies that went to what they called the church, the Kingdom hall, said she is gaining a lot of weight. So her face is just as full. Is she okay? That's what my mother said. She said. And then my stepdad, he told my mother, you need to take her down to at, you know, Grady Hospital and have a pregnancy test for her. Oh, my God. I was thinking about running away, killing myself. It was just. I just didn't know. It was all kind of thoughts running through my head.

[Phoebe Judge]

And you went down and had the pregnancy test?

[Tabitha Tramell]

My mother took me. Gotta remember, I was 15. So she took me down there and I was like four months pregnant.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha says that her mother disowned her. And Tabitha went to stay with her grandmother.

[Tabitha Tramell]

She had a one bedroom apartment me and her share. It was in a senior high rise, but my uncle lived down the hallway in another unit. And they introduced me to selling marijuana.

[Phoebe Judge]

You were selling it with your uncle?

[Tabitha Tramell]

I was getting it from my uncle, but I found my own people to sell it to. But he knew he was giving it to me and I was bringing him money back for it. So you might as well say that.

[Phoebe Judge]

That one day when she was about six months pregnant, she was hanging out near a corner store.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And it was a lady, she still like a regular young girl to me. And she had been hanging around, talking and laughing and playing around with the guys. And then she walked up to me, you know, sitting out drinking a Coca Cola or whatever, and she said, do you have anything? I said, what you need? She said, some smoke. And so I made a sale to her. And come to find out, after she walked off, probably she was gone about 10 minutes and came back down there and got me. She was an undercover agent, so I made a sale to undercover. So they took me down to the Atlanta's pre trial detention center back then. It was on Decatur Street. And they booked me in and I had to call my grandmother. I was the youngest person in there.

[Phoebe Judge]

And you were six months pregnant?

[Tabitha Tramell]

Yes.

[Phoebe Judge]

Did any of the other women say to you, you're young, you're pregnant. Did anyone try to take care of you?

[Tabitha Tramell]

They didn't say it like that. They said, girl, what you don't got yourself? You're a school girl. That's what they said. But they didn't say it. They were saying it in a. Not in a bad way, but like, you just don't from your appearance. This ain't you, you know. And some of the older ladies told me, said, this ain't the route. You starting off wrong, sweetheart.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha was released to her grandmother within a day. A few months later, she gave birth to her daughter.

[Tabitha Tramell]

After the baby was born, I had all kind of thoughts like, I'm not ready for this. But my mother stepped up and she was helping me. I went back home with her for a while, and I thought since I had a baby, I was grown. Then started back selling and smoking also. And I got rearrested. Two, let's see, my baby was probably seven days old. And at that time, since it was my second offense, I stayed in them 60 whole days. I was crying. I had these emotions going on. I didn't know at the time it was postpartum. I was bleeding all over myself and I was asking for extra pads. And the guards was being rude because I kept ringing the bell. And I guess now I can see I was annoying because I kept ringing the bell because I kept messing my clothes up. And it was the older ladies that comforted me and talked to me.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha says that every time pads were distributed, the other women would line up to get them, whether they needed them or not, and give them to Tabitha.

[Tabitha Tramell]

I'll never forget it. My roommate was an older lady. She was probably, I want to say probably about 50. She had old shirts she tore up to make extra period products for me. She said, you better get up and get ready to shower. And I always remember she gave me some paper and she said, just write down some different things. She didn't call it journaling. She said, just write down. She said, I like to write, I like to draw. She had some pretty pictures she had drawn. She said that keep me from being upset or nervous. But when she supported me like that, I never forget when I took that shower, I came back and I rested so good.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha says that when she got home, she started seeing someone she met at a house party. And when her daughter was about nine months old, she found out she was pregnant again.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And I was back and forth in county jail, diversion programs, rehab programs because of my drug use and drug selling, you know, I remember one time I was asking for something. I was asking for mopeds and I was asking for an extra sandwich. I was just feeling real bad. I didn't have any money to order extra stuff off the store at the time. My mother was on limited income and she sent me $20 a month. So you had to make a choice. Are you gonna make the call home to try to talk to your children or are you gonna get your sanitary items? You know, that was $20. Had to last me for a whole month.

[Phoebe Judge]

She remembers that one time she rang the buzzer to ask the guard for something to eat. And the guard told her, this isn't the Ritz Carlton. She says she was threatened with solitary confinement when she complained about pain or, or asked to see a doctor and that she was placed in solitary dozens of times. She says she cried all the time.

[Tabitha Tramell]

In which I didn't know why I was crying. If I look at it now, if I'd abandoned with my children, I would have cried lesser. If I was more into the pregnancy because I had detached mentally from the pregnancy, I really detached myself. But I cried a lot. One minute I think I'm level and the next minute I start crying for no reason.

[Phoebe Judge]

One day she was waiting to be picked up from Fulton County Jail to be transported to prison. And she started talking to some of the other women who were waiting with her.

[Tabitha Tramell]

Some older ladies again, they always take care of the younger people the best that they know how. They was telling me about this rehab facility that's Christ centered. I love reading the Bible, cause that's how I was raised. So that was in the back of my mind.

[Phoebe Judge]

She says that when she got out of prison she wasn't doing well. She'd been in and out of jails and prisons for decades.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And I thought back to that day. The lady was talking to me about this place. So I thought about it and then I said, wow, I'm gonna live like a normal person. So I called them. It was on a Thursday at 4:30. I got a call back saying, hey, can you be here on Monday? I went on that Monday and that's been going on October 5th for this year be 15 years.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha went on to join a program that helped formerly incarcerated women find jobs. She was 50 years old and she heard about a class to train as a doula, someone who works with pregnant women and new mothers.

[Tabitha Tramell]

It's non medical. It's a support person. As a doula, it's a person that can listen to you to help you find your voice. I didn't have it when I was pregnant, so I decided, I said, oh, I think I want to do that. I wanted to help somebody else that didn't, that didn't get the support like, I didn't get it. And, you know, I can live a good pregnancy through somebody else by assisting them.

[Phoebe Judge]

She's been working as a doula for seven years. Most of her clients are incarcerated. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. We'll be right back. Thanks to Squarespace for their support. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place, no matter what you're working on, whether it's a podcast, a special event, photography services, or a consultation business, you can customize your website to reach the right people. If you're creating video content like online courses, tutorials, or workshops, Squarespace has built in ways to support that. With Squarespace, you can upload your videos into an organized, paywalled library. And they make it easy to collect payment with thoughtfully designed invoices and online payments. Plus, they have tools that make it convenient for people to keep in touch with you, tools that help you send emails to potential customers or that let your customers schedule their own appointments. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code CRIMINAL to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Another Simple Favor, a sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy thriller, A Simple Favor. Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively play friends and sometimes enemies, Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson. They're reunited in Italy when Emily asks Stephanie to be the maid of honor in her extravagant wedding on the island of Capri. But things don't go smoothly. There are revenge plots, twists and unexpected deaths that get the FBI involved. They say you'll be watching on the edge of your seat. Watch Another Simple Favor, only on Prime Video. Tabitha Trammel says that when she asks women if they know what a doula is, most of them think it's someone who delivers babies.

[Tabitha Tramell]

But it's a support person. Not to take the place of a doctor or a nurse or a husband. It's a person that's just for me, to support me and to help me navigate to see if I want this treatment like this. Give Me, the voice to say that I want a second opinion. That's what a doula is. It's a support person that help you be in control of your labor. It's a person that makes it possible for your care to be self directed. You are in control. You know, a lot of times when you're in certain situations, you lose control. Other people be in control, and that's a bad feeling.

[Phoebe Judge]

And certainly when you're in jail, you have no control.

[Tabitha Tramell]

No control.

[Phoebe Judge]

Do you remember the first incarcerated woman that you saw that you were gonna work with?

[Tabitha Tramell]

She called me from Gwinnett County Jail. And it was during COVID and a lot, you know, you couldn't go into the jails then. And, you know, she wanted to know because she was on a special diet and I had to give her guidance on the story list on certain things that we had to make do with what we had. I told her, I say the potato chips and stuff like that. I said, we got to work with what we got. You should eat more tuna and stuff that's healthy, like nuts and different things. And get you an extra jar of peanut butter off the store, too. You know, get you your pickles and stuff. That's the closest thing you're going to get to something on that store, like for as a vegetable. So it's all about working with what you got. I was there to support her and then have her look at it through a different lens. The fruit might not be fresh, but you still get you some prepackaged fruit, you know, like fruit cocktail, whatever. Okay. It's high in sugar. I told her, pull the syrup off. It's just different ways how I was there to navigate her, to help her deal with what she had and not be discouraged.

[Phoebe Judge]

Were you nervous that first client that you had?

[Tabitha Tramell]

I was nervous, but I was invested because I look at it, I treated her how I wanted to be treated when I was in that dark place.

[Phoebe Judge]

Was she saying things to you that you remembered so clearly from your own experience?

[Tabitha Tramell]

She said a lot of things. I identified with her family, disowned her. She didn't have no support. She used to be in her church choir and, you know, same thing. She didn't go back to church. It was just a lot. I identified a lot with her, and I told her I went down that same road. I said, but I'm here today to tell you today you have me as a support person. I am here as a friend. And as a friend, I'm gonna tell you to navigate this prison system, but navigate it with respect. We talk about making things better, work with the circumstances, and try to get the best outcomes. See, the main thing is to keep them encouraged and engaged. And I told her to keep her a journal. That's what keep me going today. Even in dealing with the guards, I say, in your hormones, don't go up there and be nasty to them. Anything you want to say, put it in your journal. That's what you do, put the feelings out in the journal. Because right now you need a good relationship with the guards so you can get things that you need. You know, it's a give and take.

[Phoebe Judge]

You're having to navigate being incarcerated at the same time as navigating, trying to birth a healthy child.

[Tabitha Tramell]

Absolutely.

[Phoebe Judge]

It's double the stress.

[Tabitha Tramell]

It's double the stress. And I told her, being stressed, those hormones go to your baby. And I told her about, you know, they take you to the library like once a week. I said, what you do, you start giving you some literature on pregnancy and children, childbirth, and what you can do about your feet swelling. I told her, lower your sodium intake, leave those potato chips alone. Well, how do you know I've eaten potato chips? Cause your feet are swelling. Some stuff I know too. You know, it's just being that a supporter and she felt like somebody cared, even if I was a little. I'm not gonna use the word streak, but a little pushy. But it was a good push because the final thing that we both wanted to be a healthy child up under the circumstances.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha meets with many of her clients over the phone. She says it can be hard to get clearance for a visit. She says a lot of the women who reach out to her have heard from someone else that they should call Tabitha, that she can help them. So when you first speak with a woman that you've been connected with, what do you tell them?

[Tabitha Tramell]

I let them know first. I'm not here to judge. Because a lot of times the first thing they'll say, well, you don't understand. Yes, I do. Been there, done that.

[Phoebe Judge]

She always tells her clients her story when she starts working with them, reassure them.

[Tabitha Tramell]

You just gotta stay focused. Is it gonna be easy? No. To make it easy, you gotta be persistent. And I get em to understand that and get em to do a lot of meditation, walk around the day room, put your headphones on. Put your headphones on. Do some breathing exercises. Sometimes you have to leave your body and just think of a place, a comfort zone, and go to that place whenever you feel stressed, overwhelmed. I had to teach them those different techniques. But the main thing is to get them not to lay in the bed all day. Keep them active and motivated. What that look like when they give you that one hour of yard time? Take advantage of it. Even if you don't feel like walking around, go sit in the sun and just that'll change the way your hormones are flowing. It'll help those happy hormones flow in you. Just being out there in that sunlight, we just got to take advantage of things that we do have and know how to work it to our advantage.

[Phoebe Judge]

The institutional beds can be uncomfortable for pregnant women, but Tabitha tells her clients that they can usually get an extra mattress if they do more work around their dorm and and ask the right guards.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And I tell them be nice. If you need extra socks, which you do. Cause your feet be cold, be nice. You can't go up there demanding anything. You know, we understand that sometimes they don't treat you right. But some things to get what we need, we just have to step back and see the full picture. The full picture is to deliver a healthy, stress free baby. But you can't go there like a lot of them. Beat on that buzzer and demand it. I say I'm. I was the buzzer queen. That don't get you nothing but solitary confinement.

[Phoebe Judge]

We'll be right back.

[Unknown]

Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively return in Another Simple Favor, a sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy thriller A Simple Favor. Frenemies Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson, played by Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively, reunite on the beautiful island of Capri for Emily's grandiose wedding, where revenge is a dish best served chilled with a twist and with more twists than the winding roads of Capri. It will keep you on the edge of your seat from start to finish. Watch Another Simple Favor only on Prime Video. Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively return in Another Simple Favor, a sequel to Paul Feig's dark comedy thriller A Simple favorite. Frenemies Stephanie Smothers and Emily Nelson, played by Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively, reunite on the beautiful island of Capri for Emily's grandiose wedding, where revenge is a dish best served chilled with a twist. And with more twists than the winding roads of Capri. It will keep you on the edge of your seat from start to finish. Watch Another Simple Favor only on Prime Video.

[Phoebe Judge]

Last year, Tabitha Tramell testified at a Senate human rights subcommittee hearing on pregnancy in Georgia's jails and prisons. She talked about her own experience being incarcerated 40 years ago and also what she'd heard from other women.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And it's you know, it hadn't changed since I've been there and I had to testified to those facts.

[Phoebe Judge]

Another woman named Tiana Hill testified with Tabitha. She described the seven months she spent at the Clayton County Jail in 2019. She said that when she arrived, she informed the staff that she was pregnant. She had taken a test at home. The staff gave her a test and told her she wasn't. She says she repeatedly told them that she really was pregnant, but she didn't receive any prenatal care. A few months later, she went into early labor in her cell, but no one believed her. Finally, she was taken to the jail infirmary and given a pregnancy test which was positive. She said the staff started making jokes about her size and told her not to push. She gave birth to her son in full view of anyone who passed by the infirmary. She said other people in the jail, including men, were watching her quote, like people were looking at a concert. After paramedics arrived and took them to the hospital, Tiana was allowed to see her son in the NICU while she was handcuffed to a wheelchair. He died five days later. Tiana was put in solitary confinement on suicide watch. She said she still doesn't know how her son died or or where his remains are.

[Tabitha Tramell]

They tell you a lot of women delivering they cells and stuff because they don't respect the fact that you say that you're in labor, a person know their body and they ignore you. Several ladies don't have their babies in their cells and ignored. And a lot of ladies have testified too that they had to stand and get examined in front of men guards and stuff. It's no, no respect. A lot of times they've been in restraints shackled.

[Phoebe Judge]

Georgia has banned the use of restraints on pregnant women after the first trimester since 2019. But there have been multiple reports of women in their second and third trimesters wearing handcuffs. And there are fewer restrictions on using restraints on women after they've given birth. How much time are women given with their children after?

[Tabitha Tramell]

It depends on a different institution. And usually the ladies that I have worked with, they say it's 24 hours, the first 24 hours, that's it with the baby.

[Phoebe Judge]

That must be an incredibly hard time to know you've got this ticking clock.

[Tabitha Tramell]

And yes, and it was hard for me to try to get in that space also to try to comfort them. And my job, as best I could, as best as I can do it was to try to keep them comforted through that time. I try to get them to breastfeed the baby, even if they're not gonna breastfeed. A lot of em say they don't wanna breastfeed because the baby's gonna be gone anyway. Which I can understand that to a certain extent. But like I told em, instead of laying down, we know you tired, you're gonna be on bed rest. When you go back to the prison, every time that baby's feeding, get up, go to that nursery or have them push the baby in here for that first 24 hours and feed that baby, talk to that baby, rub that baby's hand, touch bonding, put that baby on your chest, let that baby feel your heartbeat. That baby know your heartbeat because that baby been with you nine months. Give that baby a sense of security. And it also gives you something to go back to that prison and you can recreate that scenario in your mind. See, prison is about a mind thing you're always looking forward to. The day you get out. It's all about using your imagination. So you feeling that baby heartbeat and that baby land and thinking about how that baby breath felt on you and how you just rubbed that baby, you can keep revisiting that and it gives you a sense of comfort. I have told a lot of them that and they have did it. And they say, yeah, so we have to go back to that space. And we also try to make sure that they ask the nurse to get a picture of that baby. You know, if she had to take it on their phone and print it off as a piece of paper or whatever, I highly recommend that. So when you in that prison during that time, you look at that picture. This is what I'm working toward. It give you a sense of empowerment, give them one of your shirts. You take off your shirt sitting there with that baby, that baby will have your smell. You can get one of the baby's T shirts, get one of the baby's blankets with the baby smell on it and name your baby, take ownership, name your baby, be present in whatever they doing at the hospital at that time, get up and walk around. Cause you can always, even if the baby's sleeping, go peep through the glass and just watch your baby. I said, cause it's gonna be many days. That vision is gonna take you through a lot of days.

[Phoebe Judge]

Do you think that things would have been different for you if you had had someone counseling you, telling you to give a shirt? Or do you think it would have changed things for you?

[Tabitha Tramell]

When I had my children, it was shame and guilt. So I detached. So me being able to provide that Support and to encourage them. It made me feel whole as a person again. Because pregnancy, like, I've seen a lot of the ladies, I like to go online and look at the pregnancy pictures the ladies take with their stomachs being exposed and stuff. I think that is so cute. I couldn't have never did that. Remember, I had on those big secondhand clothes that hid that pregnancy almost six months. And I want all my ladies to know there's nothing wrong with being pregnant and to take care of yourself. I tell the mothers, read positive stuff. It's almost like an internal vision board. I do that a lot now. Make plans. And I see it in my mind and put it together. It might not be in my reach right now, but I'm always. I'm a dreamer. And I tell them that's another thing you have to use to get by when you're in prison, make plans.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha says that a lot of her clients children end up in foster care. And they don't have access to much information about where they are or. Or how they're doing. So Tabitha helps them navigate the system. She also started a program for older incarcerated women whose adult children have died.

[Tabitha Tramell]

I let them know you still. We can't go back in time, but you can be the best grandmother. And that's what I tried to be.

[Phoebe Judge]

She says she keeps in touch with most of the women she's worked with.

[Tabitha Tramell]

They still call me for advice. I still send them shipments or have them meet me and give them products for their new children. I keep an open relationship, and they always refer back to me.

[Phoebe Judge]

And do you get to hear when sometimes a mother and a child have been reunited?

[Tabitha Tramell]

Yes. I had one before. She didn't get full custody, but the thought of her, she was so happy to get every other weekend visitations. That was a start. Because in the beginning, she didn't have no contact at all. And I told her, I said, when you get ready for your visitation, I need you to get a good night rest. Wear that child out, make memories. Always bring a little trinket, little gift coloring book. And each visit, you start a put. You take a picture and put it in your scrapbook. And on nights when it's raining, when you feeling down, look back at that scrapbook. Look how far you done came. Look where you at. Do the comparison with that. And you'll see the progress. And that'll help keep you going.

[Phoebe Judge]

So you get to see some of these kids grow up.

[Tabitha Tramell]

Yeah, and they call me Granny, too. Cause they hear my grandchildren call me Granny.

[Phoebe Judge]

Tabitha has six grandchildren and one more on the way.

[Tabitha Tramell]

Oh man, I can walk on water. They love Granny. I can do no wrong. Those little people, when they see me, they smile like they shooting a toothpaste commercial.

[Phoebe Judge]

Last December, after hearing testimonies from Tabitha and the other women at the Human Rights Subcommittee hearing, Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff introduced a bill that would require jails and prisons across the country to report on the number of pregnant women in custody, the care they receive, and the outcomes of their pregnancies. Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for our [e-mail] we hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal. Plus, you can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spohr talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com we're on Facebook at Criminal show and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com criminalpodcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

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