The Knock

Summary

Criminal – "The Knock" (December 12, 2025)

Podcast: Criminal
Host: Phoebe Judge
Episode Theme: “The Knock” – An ordinary Christmas morning turns extraordinary for one new mother and her family when a frantic knock at the door sets off a chain of alarming events. This is a story about chance, crisis, empathy, and what people do when everything suddenly becomes uncertain.

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Laura Nowlin and her family’s unforgettable Christmas morning in St. Louis, when a baby was left on their porch. What initially seemed like a bizarre mix-up unfolds into a story involving a car theft, a panicked teenager, and a community’s quick response. Through closely recounted memories and police perspective, the episode explores fear, compassion, and the echoes of a single desperate decision.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pregnancy, Motherhood, and Anticipation

• Background on Laura Nowlin: Laura recounts her anxiety over possibly giving birth on Christmas, referencing the difficulties of having a holiday birthday.
  • “People always… lamented that… it’s kind of a bummer, isn’t it, to have your birthday on Christmas or even the day after…” (Phoebe Judge, 01:35)
• Percy’s Birth: Laura’s son, Percy (short for Percival), was born prematurely in early November following an emergency C-section.
  • “Piercing the veil is kind of an old English idea… and so that’s how he’d come into our world…” (Laura Nowlin, 04:13)

2. Christmas Morning Routine Interrupted

• Setting the Scene: On an icy morning, Laura and her husband Rob prepare to visit family, excited for their baby’s first Christmas.
• Unexpected Knock:
  • Laura hears “frantic knocking” and assumes it’s a package delivery. Rob discovers a baby, not a parcel, outside their door.
  • “…he came back and he said, there's a kid outside…I said, like a teenager playing a prank…He said, no, like a baby.” (Laura Nowlin & Phoebe Judge, 06:56)

3. Initial Confusion and Concern

• The Stranded Baby:
  • The infant is well-cared-for: securely strapped, dressed warmly, clean and fed.
  • Laura’s instincts as a new mother kick in: “Somebody loves you. Somebody dressed you up all warm and put you in this car seat.” (Laura Nowlin, 09:26)
• Reactions and Fears:
  • First thoughts include a possible custody mix-up, then anger at the dangerous situation, and finally, fear for the unseen parent:
    • “I became furious… if you thought you were dropping this baby off…you should have made sure that they were there.” (Laura Nowlin, 13:20)
    • “I became afraid that something had happened to that person.” (Laura Nowlin, 13:59)

4. Police and Mother’s Arrival

• Rapid Response: Police arrive within minutes after Rob calls 911, indicating law enforcement was anticipating such a call.
  • “He said that the woman on the other line shouted, we got a baby. So they'd obviously been waiting for some kind of call.” (Laura Nowlin, 14:41)
• Reunion: The baby’s mother, distraught, is reunited with her son on Laura’s porch.
  • “She only had eyes for him, and she took him from me, and she just crumpled over him.” (Laura Nowlin, 16:12)

5. Police Perspective – Officer Austin King (17:14)

• Background:
  • Working Christmas as a new officer; describes an otherwise quiet day (17:18–18:10).
• Emergency Unfolds:
  • Receives “very serious” call: a car stolen with an infant in the back.
  • Fast action is crucial: “As time progresses, the lesser likelihood of being successful as law enforcement goes down.” (Officer King, 19:55)
  • Police coordination: The stolen car is quickly identified, and multiple officers join the search (20:37).
• Events in Sequence:
  • Car thief abandons the baby on Laura’s porch a few blocks away from where the car was stolen (20:51).
  • The thief is apprehended after a foot chase (21:41).

6. Understanding the Thief & Aftermath

• Discovering the Truth:
  • Laura learns the thief is a teenage boy in foster care, not an adult. Her anger dissolves into empathy:
    • “This wasn't someone...who had made a decision to put a child at risk. This was a child who had done something stupid. And all that anger...just vanished.” (Laura Nowlin, 22:22)
• Speculations & Reflection:
  • Laura considers the frantic knocking was a desperate effort from a scared teenager realizing his mistake (23:03–24:05).

7. Court and Closure

• Juvenile Justice:
  • The teenage boy is tried as a juvenile and sent to a detention center. Laura never learns his name but wishes him well (27:40).
  • “If I could, I would look up and find out how he was doing. And I wish I could say to him, like, hey, I’m glad you tried to do the right thing.” (Laura Nowlin, 27:40)

8. Returning to ‘Normal’ – Family and Memory

• Sharing with Family:
  • Laura calls her mother to explain they’d be late (“a good enough excuse,” 28:20), relays the story to skeptical relatives, and eventually celebrates her first Christmas as a mom.
• Enduring Impact:
  • Years later, Laura jokes to Percy that he had an “older brother” for 20 minutes. She continues to think about both boys each Christmas.
  • “I'll be thinking about it every year for the rest of my life. I'll be thinking about the baby, hoping he's somewhere out there being happy and loved… And I'll be thinking about the other boy and hoping he has somebody who's loving him and helping him.” (Laura Nowlin, 31:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was able to get him out…just this baby was clearly clean, fed and loved. And so I picked him up and I was trying to comfort him and I just said…the first thing I was thinking was somebody loves you.”
  — Laura Nowlin (09:26)

• “I don't know, it felt like he understood. I know that sounds silly.”
  — Laura Nowlin (13:59)

• “What kind of monster did this?...And I asked the police officer, he was wandering alone on Christmas. My whole preconceived notion was shattered.”
  — Laura Nowlin (22:03)

• “I just feel like there were two boys who were lost. And my thought was the kid realized what he had done, you know, and tried to. Tried to do the right thing.”
  — Laura Nowlin (24:05)

• “If I could, I would look up and find out how he was doing. And I wish I could say to him, like, hey, I'm glad you tried to do the right thing.”
  — Laura Nowlin (27:40)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Laura’s pregnancy & naming story: 01:02–05:50
• Discovery of baby on porch: 05:50–08:54
• Initial reactions & comforting the baby: 08:54–10:15, 12:44–14:38
• Police arrive and mother’s reunion: 15:11–16:19
• Officer Austin King recounts the event: 17:14–21:27
• Context of the car theft & suspect’s background: 21:52–24:46
• Family’s Christmas and long-term reflections: 28:17–31:55

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Conclusion

The Knock is a nuanced story about how ordinary lives become entangled in unexpected moments of crisis. The episode captures the raw emotion of a mother’s gratitude, the fear and confusion of an unthinkable moment, the police’s urgent response, and ultimately, the empathy awakened for a teenage boy who made a terrible—yet desperate—mistake. Laura’s story is one of shock transformed into generosity and lasting compassion—a reminder of the humanity on both sides of extraordinary events.

Transcript

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[Laura Nowlin]

He could have been born on Christmas. I'd been terrified that was going to happen.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2017, Lauren Allen and her husband were expecting their first child. The baby was due on December 13. Why? Why were you terrified he was going to come on Christmas?

[Laura Nowlin]

Oh, just, you know, people always. Well, my mother was born December 30th and so she'd always lamented that. And I knew someone else who'd been born on the 26th. And just that whole thing, it's kind.

[Phoebe Judge]

Of a bummer, isn't it, to have your birthday on Christmas or even the day after is almost worse because what are people gonna get through two presents? You kind of get robbed.

[Laura Nowlin]

Yeah, yeah. And my mom had always felt that way. And I worked at the county library at the time. And so whenever I'd come across somebody who had a birthday close to Christmas, I'd say, I'm due December 13th. You know, I'm in the two week window where it could be Christmas. Like, what did your family do? Mostly it was about they'd say wrapping paper, have happy birthday wrapping paper instead of Christmas. I was just trying to arm myself with details about how to make a Christmas birthday special. And then surprised he was very early.

[Phoebe Judge]

On November 8, five weeks before her due date, Laura had a bad headache that wouldn't go away. She eventually went to the hospital and ended up having an emergency C section. She had a son.

[Laura Nowlin]

He did great. He was only in the NICU for a few days, but it was a very intense introduction to, to motherhood.

[Phoebe Judge]

About seven weeks later, on Christmas morning, they were at home in St. Louis preparing to go to Laura's mother's house.

[Laura Nowlin]

My mother had wanted us to arrive by 10am and I'd put my foot down and said, I can do 11. She was just so excited about her first grandchild and my sister was bringing the man she was eventually going to marry. And so it was just a very important Christmas and mom was all aflutter about it. She'd wanted us to be there super early and I'd said it's gotta be at least 11.

[Phoebe Judge]

And had Christmas always been a big thing in your family?

[Laura Nowlin]

Oh, my mom loves Christmas. It's a very big deal for her. Every year it's a big deal. But this year was particularly a big deal. And my dad's an Episcopal priest, so there's also a religious element for my family. There were also gonna be. One of my friends from college had strangely gotten a job working with my mom and like they'd become friends and his family was going to be out of town that year and so she'd invited him. So there was a lot of good things, you know, waiting for us that we were excited about.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura's parents house was a 30 minute drive away. Before getting in the car that morning, Laura was in her living room feeding her son Percy. And tell me a little bit about Percy. That's not a name you hear every day.

[Laura Nowlin]

I always note unusual names and if I hear one I've never heard before, I look it up. So when I was pregnant I had a list. I think I probably had about a hundred names that we had to narrow down to. Percy is short for Percival, which means pierce the veil. And we decided on that because with the emergency C section, piercing the veil is kind of a old English idea of like moving from this world to the next. And so that's how he'd come into our world. So then, yeah, we liked that. It had lots of nickname options. And for now we've landed on Percy. But sometimes I joke about him going to law school and going by civil. He was very sweet. He had just a very sweet, quiet, obliging temperament. So I mostly just remember that morning before everything that happened, just sitting with him and him just being very sweet and quiet and cuddly. And it had been super icy. Like one of those winters where it would snow a ton and then the sun would come out and melt it just enough so that when the sun went back down, it froze. So there was ice everywhere. I think the temperature was in the teens. And you know, we get freezing weather here pretty regularly, but like in the low teens, that's maybe like once or twice a year that that would happen. We rarely have white Christmases. And so it was a little romantic, like, oh, Percy's first Christmas.

[Phoebe Judge]

So tell me what happened that morning.

[Laura Nowlin]

I was. Had just finished feeding Percy and we had these stairs in front of our apartment. We were on a. Our building was on a steep hill and there was a flight of stairs and, and then a bit of a landing and then another flight of stairs just to get to our porch. And I heard someone running up the stairs. And the stairs were incredibly icy. The whole city had been shut down because of the ice. And so when I heard the running, I thought, that's crazy. And then just a frantic knocking on the door. And I thought, oh, it must be a package. You know, this person must be running so late. Everyone's packages had been running late. And they're working, you know, for extra hours on Christmas and they're just trying to get through the route and they're just in a panic. So I called for my husband to go get, you know, whatever had just been delivered.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura's husband Rob went to open the.

[Laura Nowlin]

Door and he came back and he said, there's a kid outside. And I said, like a teenager playing a prank.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura says her husband looks stunned.

[Laura Nowlin]

And he said, no, like a baby.

[Phoebe Judge]

The baby was in its car seat on their porch. There is no one else around. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. Laura says her first thought was, this is some kind of a mix up. They lived on the first floor of a two unit brick house.

[Laura Nowlin]

And I said, well, it's got to be somebody's. Maybe the guy who lives above us has a kid we didn't know about. And you know, his girl, ex, girlfriend just dropped it off.

[Phoebe Judge]

Rob went outside and started walking around to see if he could find anyone.

[Laura Nowlin]

And he was gone for a few minutes and he came back and he said, there is nobody out there. And I knocked on the neighbor's door and nobody answered. So I'm bringing the baby inside because it's freezing.

[Phoebe Judge]

And.

[Laura Nowlin]

I don't know what I thought in that moment. I trusted my husband's judgment, but it was hard to believe. Like, really, there's no one out there. And so I came into the front room and I saw the carrier with the baby in it. And it was really just so surreal. He looked at me and he started crying and I rushed to him and, you know, I knew how to do the snaps from my own baby. And so I was able to get him out, but, you know, he was securely in there.

[Phoebe Judge]

So he was completely strapped into his car seat.

[Laura Nowlin]

Yeah, buttoned up, buttoned up. He had. It wasn't, you know, you can't put babies in car seats with really puffy coats anymore. You gotta have like a thick sweater or something so that they can't like slide out and the seatbelt can grip on them. So it was, it was the appropriate kind of jacket. Like he had been dressed really warmly. It was obvious. You know, the thing that helped me cope in the first few weeks of parenthood was to kind of break it down to a to do list of you gotta make sure the baby is clean, fed and loved. And that's really everything will fall under that umbrella. And just this baby was clearly clean, fed and loved. And so I picked him up and I was trying to comfort him and I just said the first thing I was thinking was somebody loves you. Somebody dressed you up all warm and put you in this car seat. And I don't know why you're here or what's happened, but you're safe. And he stopped crying.

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Laura Nowlin]

I had no idea. Like I'd said, my first thought had been maybe there someone had been doing a custody exchange with a parent and there had been a mix up.

[Phoebe Judge]

So in those minutes you're thinking this is a custody battle. I mean, I, I'm just trying to think of what I would think.

[Laura Nowlin]

What I kept saying to the baby is, I think there's been some kind of mistake. As I was just bouncing him on my hip, I'd say, I think there was a mistake, but we're gonna get you back to the people who love you.

[Phoebe Judge]

I mean, but a mistake like an Amazon package got delivered. I mean, I just am trying to. I mean, it's a big mistake.

[Laura Nowlin]

Yeah. No, and I thought, like, I got hugely angry because I was like, if you thought you were dropping this baby off somewhere with people who, you know, were expecting a baby to be there, you should have made sure that they were there and they could like. And I became furious with whoever this mystery, you know, person was.

[Phoebe Judge]

It's freezing cold outside.

[Laura Nowlin]

It's absolutely freezing cold outside. It was dangerous to have left a baby like this.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura says she kept thinking, what if they had already left for her mother's house and there had been no one home to open the door that morning.

[Laura Nowlin]

But then as I was, you know, holding the baby and thinking, somebody loves this baby, I can tell by how they're cared for, I became afraid that something had happened to that person. And I did say to the baby, you know, I think there's somebody who loves you and we're gonna try to find that person and get them back to you. And if something's happened to that person, I bet they have somebody who loves them who will take care of you and it'll be okay. And I don't know, it felt like he understood. I know that sounds silly.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura's husband called 911.

[Laura Nowlin]

He said, Someone left a baby on our porch. The whole thing had question marks behind it. And he said that the woman on the other line shouted, we got a baby. So they'd obviously been waiting for some kind of call. And so when he told me that that kind of sent kind of a clue that they were aware that something had happened.

[Phoebe Judge]

Rob and Laura were told that the police were on their way to their house. Laura says she was surprised by how fast they got there. Just a few minutes, I heard the.

[Laura Nowlin]

Knock on the door, and my. My husband went to answer the door, and for some reason, he'd picked up our baby. And I was thinking, oh, no. Then I said, hold on, and I stepped forward with the baby who'd been dropped off. And I'd said, this is the baby. That's my baby, and pointed to my baby.

[Phoebe Judge]

There were several Officers from the St. Louis Police in front of their house, and a couple of police cars were parked in the street.

[Laura Nowlin]

And I saw there was a woman standing down at the bottom in the street. And again, we had a short flight of stairs from the sidewalk, a bit of landing, and then another flight of stairs to get up to our apartment.

[Phoebe Judge]

A police officer standing at Laura's front door shouted down to the woman, and.

[Laura Nowlin]

She said, ma', am, is this your baby?

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura says she remembers the woman shouting, yes.

[Laura Nowlin]

I have no memory at all of her coming to me. And then she's just there. And she couldn't have levitated or just appeared. She had to have run up those icy steps. And as I handed it to her, I said, he's okay. And she only had eyes for him, and she took him from me, and she just crumpled over him. And I don't remember her leaving. Someone must have escorted her down the icy steps again and into the car. And then they were just gone. And they were gone.

[Officer Austin King]

I was on the day shift, so I would have started around 7am Police.

[Phoebe Judge]

Officer Austin King was in his patrol car with his partner on Christmas morning. He had just graduated from the police academy in January that year and was still pretty new on the job. When you're a young police officer, does it mean that, you know, you. You work Christmas because, you know, you don't have any seniority, right?

[Officer Austin King]

Yeah, that's. That's usually how it goes. The. The officers with seniority usually gobble up the vacation days for Christmas earlier that year. That's definitely something you can expect.

[Phoebe Judge]

He says it was a pretty quiet day of patrolling. Christmas Day usually is a few traffic.

[Officer Austin King]

Accidents here and there. It's a very A lot of vehicles, a lot of people driving in that area, but just a few here and there, minor calls, a couple different sundry calls. It was relatively quiet.

[Phoebe Judge]

But then a few hours into their shift a call came in over their police radio. It sounded very different from the other calls they had received that morning. A woman had called 91 1. Her car had just been stolen.

[Officer Austin King]

So dispatch told us that the caller's infant son was in the back seat when the car was stolen. And so we knew we had something very serious going on.

[Phoebe Judge]

Austin King and his partner were about a mile north of where the woman was calling from.

[Officer Austin King]

We went lights and sirens down there, talked with the, the victim, the, the mom who told us what happened. She was of course very distraught. We were relatively, I think the same age if I recall. Obviously we tried to be as empathetic as we could. There's only so much you can say to a person or a parent in that moment and she was obviously understandably very distraught.

[Phoebe Judge]

The baby's mother lived just a few blocks from Laura's house. She had left her house with her six month old son when she realized that she'd forgotten to lock the front door. She went back up the stairs to her house to lock it. She left her son in his car seat. The car was still running. Then with her back turned, she said she heard a car door slam and turned around and saw someone in the front seat of her car driving off. She ran after the car, then called the police. She told a news reporter, it replays in my head over and over. All I can hear is the tire screeching and seeing the back of my car.

[Officer Austin King]

We need to locate this car as quickly as possible. We need to recover this child before too much time because as time progresses the lesser likelihood of being successful as law enforcement goes down. Right. The woman knew her license plate number, which was incredibly useful. Most people don't know their, their license plate number. They usually don't have that memorized. But she did, which was very helpful. So we put out the make, model, color, license plate over the radio. A lot of officers from the second district and the third district nearby, it was a near neighboring district, came because they heard the call come out. And even though it wasn't district, they came over to help because they knew it was serious.

[Phoebe Judge]

After driving just a couple of blocks, the person who had stolen the car stopped at Laura's house where he ran up the stairs, put down the baby and knocked on the door, then got back in the car and drove away.

[Officer Austin King]

Just shortly after we Put out the description of the vehicle. Dispatch told us that they had just received a call that someone had left a baby in a car seat on their front porch. And we obviously immediately knew, hey, this is probably going to be our baby, right?

[Phoebe Judge]

They told the baby's mother they might.

[Officer Austin King]

Have found her son to relax her nerves a little bit and say, hey, there was a. Someone just called. It sounds like your kid might be okay. They've got just a few blocks down. We're going to take you over to him. She got into the back of our car. We took her over there.

[Phoebe Judge]

Meanwhile, another police officer happened to spot the stolen car. The license plate and description matched. The officer did a U turn and chased the car. Other police officers joined the suspect.

[Officer Austin King]

Got out on foot, stopped the car somewhere, got out on foot, ran on foot. And we had some officers catching the suspect. After jumping a few fences through some backyards.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura and her husband learned about what had happened and about how the suspect had already been arrested from a police officer who stayed behind when everyone else left.

[Laura Nowlin]

And I was still so furious at the person whoever had done this. And I had to ask, I was like, what kind of monster did this?

[Phoebe Judge]

But then Laura says she was told that the person who had stolen the car was a teenage boy. She says she remembers hearing that he was in foster care.

[Laura Nowlin]

And I asked the police officer, he was wandering alone on Christmas. My whole preconceived notion was shattered. You know, this wasn't someone. This wasn't an adult who had made a decision to put a child at risk. This was a child who had done something stupid. And all that anger, I'd had just vanished.

[Phoebe Judge]

So this kid had stolen this car. Probably having no idea that a baby was in the backseat.

[Laura Nowlin]

That's what I always imagined was that when he was driving off with the car and then he heard the cry of the baby in the backseat that he was so panicked when he ran up the icy stairs. And the way he banged on the door, like, I feel like he realized the gravity of the situation.

[Phoebe Judge]

Laura says she's often thought about the footsteps and the knock on the door she heard that morning and how it seemed too frantic for a delivery person. She says she can still play back the sound of the doorknock in her head. Later, Laura thought about how their porch was not the most convenient choice for the teenage boy since they lived on a hill. He had to run up two sets of stairs to get to the porch. She wondered if maybe the teenage boy lived in the neighborhood and knew that they had a child One of their windows had been open. Laura says maybe there's a chance he saw it and realized they were at home.

[Laura Nowlin]

I can't. I can't deny the fact it was still so reckless, but I. I just. It seeing the mother's trauma and it probably still haunts her today sometimes. And I never want to speak down to that trauma, but I just feel like there were two boys who were lost. And my thought was the kid realized what he had done, you know, and tried to. Tried to do the right thing.

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Phoebe Judge]

Visit t mobile.com Months later, Laura Nowlin and her husband were at the teenage boys court hearing. Laura's husband had to testify about finding the baby and calling 91 1. Laura remembers that a judge had decided that the boy would be tried as a juvenile. In Missouri, children under 18 are generally considered juveniles, but they can be tried as adults if a judge decides that the case is serious. Laura says she remembers that the teenage boy was sent to a juvenile detention center. And Laura says they never learned the boy's name. But she saw him briefly when he walked by the waiting room where she was sitting.

[Laura Nowlin]

He was about as tall as, you know, he looked like a 14 year old. Even just seeing him from behind, you know, maybe 15. But you know, this wasn't a six foot teenager. This was very obviously a child. If I could, I would look up and find out how I was doing. And I wish I could say to him, like, hey, I'm glad you tried to do the right thing.

[Phoebe Judge]

What was the rest of that Christmas like? What did you do?

[Laura Nowlin]

Well, I had to call my mom and tell her that we were going to be late. And I said, I promise you we have a good enough excuse. And she did not believe me that no matter what it was, that it was going to be a good enough excuse for being late. And you know, she was expecting. Oh, the baby had spit up and we needed an outfit change and that wasn't going to be acceptable. So when we said a baby was on our porch, no one believed us at first, but we had to repeat it. And then it was a surprisingly short story. The baby had come, the baby had gone and now we're here.

[Phoebe Judge]

And Laura's sister's new partner was there meeting the family for the first time, listening to.

[Laura Nowlin]

The story, mouth hanging open, not believing it, but then having to believe it because we were saying, no, it's true, it happened.

[Phoebe Judge]

What an introduction.

[Laura Nowlin]

Yes. Well, he's never surprised by anything that happens to me now. But it was a good rest of the Christmas. It was my first Christmas as a mom. And so we had multiple Santa outfits to make way, you know, make through in the day.

[Phoebe Judge]

What do you mean multiple Santa outfits?

[Laura Nowlin]

Well, when you have a new baby at Christmas, everybody gives you Santa outfits and you have to put them all on and take a picture and then post that one so they know that you appreciated the outfit.

[Phoebe Judge]

Do they come with beards for babies?

[Laura Nowlin]

None of the ones that I received did. You might have an Etsy product idea there. I do have a favorite picture of him sitting in my lap on Christmas morning in a big wingback chair at my mother's house. And I look very peaceful and happy.

[Phoebe Judge]

You must have been thinking, what the hell just happened?

[Laura Nowlin]

Yeah. No. And it was one of those things where you kind of felt the need to keep telling the story to make sure it was real. The whirlwind of it.

[Phoebe Judge]

That night, when they were in the car on their way home, Laura tried to write down what had happened that day. She says it was hard to put it all into words. She posted what she'd written on Facebook. The next day, she got a message from the baby's mother who had read Laura's post. She told Laura how scared she'd been that morning and thanked her for taking care of her baby. The baby's grandmother also wrote to Laura saying, thank you for keeping my grandson warm. Has it changed Christmas a little bit now?

[Laura Nowlin]

Well, every year we tease percy that for 20 minutes he had an older brother, and he, you know, to him, it's kind of a funny story. I'm not sure he. He's seven now. I'm not sure he entirely believes it. He might think we're teasing him because it does sound so unreal. But I'll be thinking about it every year for the rest of my life. I'll be thinking about the baby, hoping he's somewhere out there being happy and loved. I know that he has a sibling now. I know he's doing well. And I'll be thinking about the other boy and hoping he has somebody who's loving him and helping him.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to tell the story.

[Laura Nowlin]

I appreciate the chance to talk about it, and I hope you have a good Christmas.

[Phoebe Judge]

Oh, I love Christmas. So you two get ready for. We'll both get ready for Christmas.

[Laura Nowlin]

Well, get ready for Christmas.

[Phoebe Judge]

Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nydia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. Our engineer is Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for a [e-mail] Newsletter. We hope you'll join our membership program Criminal plus now on Patreon. It's the very best way to support our work. You can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes behind the scenes photos and videos and you'll be able to talk directly with us and other Criminal listeners. Criminal plus also makes a great holiday gift. Learn more and sign up at patreon.com criminal we're on [e-mail] criminalpodcast we're on facebook at thisiscriminal and instagram and TikTok@ criminalpodcast. We're also on [e-mail] criminalPodcast Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

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