The Post Office

Summary

Criminal – "The Post Office" (November 21, 2025)

Overview

In this gripping episode of Criminal, host Phoebe Judge investigates the UK’s Post Office Horizon scandal—a breathtaking miscarriage of justice where subpostmasters were falsely accused and convicted of theft and fraud due to faulty accounting software. Through the experiences of Scott Darlington, a subpostmaster caught up in the ordeal, and insights from journalist Nick Wallace, the episode explores personal anguish, institutional failure, and the long, painful road to exoneration and compensation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Becoming a Subpostmaster (02:01–07:32)

• Scott Darlington’s Background
  Scott sought stable work and purchased a local Post Office branch in Alderley Edge, a high-end community ([03:09]).
  "I thought there was an opportunity of bringing it up to date and making it suit the Village..." – Scott Darlington ([04:09])

• The Vetting Process
  Emphasized the trust required for subpostmasters—a role akin to doctors or police in societal standing ([05:29]).
  "You were kind of like a doctor. ... People did actually hold postmasters in high esteem." – Scott Darlington

• Learning Horizon
  The mandatory training included use of the Horizon computer system, which was already outdated ([06:08]).

The Day-to-Day Reality & Early Problems (07:32–10:15)

• Operations
  Scott handled large cash sums, highlighting the role's risk and responsibility ([07:32]).

• Account Balancing
  Slight discrepancies during the weekly office balance were normal, accounted for human error ([08:26]).
  "It was usually four or five, six pounds or something like that. ...as long as the discrepancies were only small like that, nobody really thought too much about it." – Scott Darlington

• First Major Error
  Years into the job, a discrepancy of £1,700 in stamp stock appeared out of nowhere ([09:38]).

Escalating Disaster & Consequences (09:38–16:31)

• Increasing Discrepancies and Isolation
  Scott's Horizon balances showed growing and inexplicable deficits (£44,000 over months), causing him extreme stress and anxiety ([11:46]).

• Unhelpful Helpline and Lack of Support
  The Horizon helpline was unhelpful:
  "They basically said, well, how are you going to pay? You know, you're responsible." – Scott Darlington ([10:21])

• Accusation and Suspension
  After being unable to make the numbers match, he was audited, accused of theft, suspended, and interrogated like a criminal ([12:37–14:14]). "They were stood up, shouting down at me, where is the money? Where have you put it?" – Scott Darlington ([13:46])

• Union & Support Fails The union leader’s first response was to ask about gambling problems, implying blame ([14:31]).

• Doubt, Guilt, and Societal Fallout Scott began to doubt himself and experienced stigma after a suspended prison sentence for false accounting ([15:19–16:31]). "Now I felt like a pariah in society, you know, walking around." – Scott Darlington ([17:52])

The Bigger Picture Emerges (21:41–33:02)

• Nick Wallace Investigates
  Journalist Nick Wallace became involved after hearing about Seema Misra’s wrongful conviction while pregnant ([21:41]).

• Pattern of Injustice
  Wallace uncovered many cases, with the Post Office always maintaining the subpostmaster was solely at fault ([24:54]).

• Historical Context
  The Post Office’s revered role in British culture meant accusations were devastating and met with widespread disbelief ([25:02]).

• Systemic Cover-Up
  The Post Office, desperate to protect its investment in Horizon, downplayed errors and dismissed concerns, telling isolated subpostmasters “no one else has had a problem like the one you're describing” ([29:13]).

• Devastating Human Impact
  Many subpostmasters’ health suffered; some had heart attacks, others lost their jobs, homes, and social standing ([30:23]).

Collective Action and Legal Battles (33:02–41:04)

• Formation of Advocacy Groups
  Alan Bates led the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. Meetings revealed the widespread nature of the injustice ([30:53]).

• Investigations and Legal Action
  An inquiry uncovered systemic flaws and apparent cover-ups; 555 subpostmasters became part of a class action lawsuit ([34:50]).

• Damning Judgments
  The judge characterized the Post Office’s contract as "oppressive" and cited a determined effort to mislead the court ([38:32]).
  "At times the Post Office acted as though it is answerable only to itself." – Judge’s ruling, per Phoebe Judge

• Revelation on Remote Access
  Former Fujitsu employee Richard Roll testified to having access to—and the ability to alter—branch accounts, devastating the Post Office’s claims ([37:23]).

• Limited Compensation
  Large settlements shrank after legal fees, offering little relief to those wronged ([40:12]).

• Historic Overturning of Convictions
  After public pressure, more than 900 wrongful convictions were identified; only a fraction overturned until a 2024 act of Parliament ([41:51]).

• Lingering Harm
  Compensation has been slow; many died waiting ([43:31]). "We think the figures are now more than 200 people have died waiting for their full and final compensation." – Nick Wallace ([44:08])

Closing Reflections (44:38–44:52)

• Enduring Trauma
  Scott has avoided his former Post Office workplace:
  "I don’t go in, no...as a rule I don’t go in." – Scott Darlington ([44:38])

• Recognitions
  Some campaigners were honored by the state; Alan Bates was knighted.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Role’s Prestige
  "You were kind of like a doctor...people did actually hold postmasters in high esteem." – Scott Darlington ([05:29])

• On First Encountering a Major Discrepancy
  "The system’s telling me I was £1,700 down in cash. ...that's like a suitcase full...it’s just ridiculous." – Scott Darlington ([09:38])

• On the Helpline’s Response
  “They basically said, well, how are you going to pay? You know, you're responsible.” – Scott Darlington ([10:21])

• On the Mental Toll
  “I couldn't sleep. I was losing weight. It wasn't much fun to be doing this anymore at all.” – Scott Darlington ([11:54])

• On Discovering others’ experiences
  “Once you heard other people's stories, it was like a sense of relief ...this wasn’t you.” – Scott Darlington ([30:53])

• On the Post Office’s Response to Criticism
  “Protecting the mothership became this prime directive … the Post Office. They could not countenance any criticism … because the whole edifice would come crashing down.” – Nick Wallace ([28:40])

• On Remote Access & Prosecutions
  "If remote access was not just possible, but people like Richard Roll had been doing it on a regular basis, then there was no way these prosecutions could be safe.” – Nick Wallace ([38:01])

• On Judicial Exasperation
  “The Post Office continuing to claim that Horizon was reliable was, quote, the 21st century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat.” – Judge’s ruling, cited by Phoebe Judge ([40:36])

• On Compensation Delays and Loss
  "More than 200 people have died waiting for their full and final compensation." – Nick Wallace ([44:08])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |:----------- |:--------| | 02:01–07:32 | Scott buys and operates the Alderley Edge Post Office | | 09:38–12:15 | First major discrepancy and failed attempts to resolve | | 12:37–16:31 | Audit, accusation, suspension, and legal fallout | | 21:41–24:54 | Nick Wallace begins investigating, meets subpostmasters | | 25:02–27:45 | Post Office history, Horizon system introduction | | 30:53–33:02 | Subpostmasters first meeting and formation of support group | | 34:50–39:06 | Class action lawsuit and damning courtroom testimony | | 40:12–41:51 | Settlement, criminal convictions, and continued fallout | | 43:31–44:08 | Delayed compensation and campaigners’ recognition | | 44:38–44:52 | Scott’s emotional distance from the Post Office |

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode is somber, empathic, and quietly outraged—reflecting the pain and injustice endured by subpostmasters and their families, but also the perseverance and solidarity that eventually brought the truth to light.

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For Further Reading

• Nick Wallace’s book: The Great Post Office Scandal: The fight to expose a multi million pound IT disaster which put innocent people in jail.

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Criminal continues to excel at weaving personal stories with societal critique, making "The Post Office" a powerful chronicle of how institutional accountability can falter—sometimes with devastating, decades-long consequences.

Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

Support for Criminal comes from Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Ollie. Having a happy, healthy dog starts with what you put in their bowl. That's why Ollie delivers fresh human grade food that your dog will love. Go to ollie.com Phoebe, tell them all about your dog and use Code phoebe to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your Money back. That's o-l l ie.com Phoebe and enter code Phoebe to get 60% off your first box. Hi, it's Phoebe. I want to tell you about something exciting that's happening. Our membership program, Criminal plus, is joining Patreon. Here's what it means. No ads on anything. We make bonus episodes and you directly support our work. We're also sharing behind the scenes photos and videos. You get access to exclusive merch and we're able to talk with you in chat rooms about our episodes and you can talk with each other. That's something you've all been asking for for a long time. If you become a member before November 30th, you'll also have the chance to join me and Criminal co founder Lauren Spore for a virtual lunch gathering. We're going to choose five people to get on a zoom with us to hang out and answer your questions. Just go to patreon.com criminal to sign up. You can also give Criminal plus as a gift too. We're very grateful to you for supporting our work. Okay, here's the show.

[Scott Darlington]

I was taken to Chester Crown Court in the UK where I had to be handcuffed and put in this bulletproof box actually in the courthouse while my case was talked about. But before I'd gone in there, I had like a meeting with my barrister and he said to me, well, you know, because there's no evidence to the contrary, you're going to have to plead guilty. If you plead not guilty, you might go to prison.

[Phoebe Judge]

This is Scott Darlington, about 10 years earlier Scott had been working as a sound engineer for concerts and as an extra for television shows. But he was in his late 30s and had a young daughter and wanted to find steadier work.

[Scott Darlington]

And I had enough money to buy some sort of a business. And then I noticed in the local sort of businesses for sale newspaper, that the Post Office, in a place called Alderley Edge, which is only six miles away from where I live, came up for sale. And I thought, you know, what's this?

[Phoebe Judge]

In the uk, people can purchase and run their own post offices. There are more than 11,000 of them. The people who run them sign a contract with the Post Office and are called sub postmasters.

[Scott Darlington]

And you, as a sub postmaster, take over a branch and you do all the Post Office transactions alongside running your own retail business. And the Post Office, it does everything really, from postage to car tax to benefits, pensions. It's like bank accounting as well. Business, bank deposits, even fishing licenses and foreign currency. It's a bit of a jack of all trade. It's a lot of things.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Post Office branch Scott saw in the newspaper was being sold for £154,000. He says it was a little more than he'd expected to spend, but he decided to visit Alderley Edge to see it anyway.

[Scott Darlington]

Lots of famous footballers and people from stage and screen used to live around there. It's all very large houses and it's very upmarket. The whole. The main street is just lined with upmarket restaurants, bars and things like this. And there in the middle was the village Post Office, you know, which was run down. You know, it was actually in a poor condition when I looked to take it over. So I thought there was an opportunity of bringing it up to date and making it suit the Village and everything. And we decided it was a bit of a goer, so I went ahead with it.

[Phoebe Judge]

To make it work, Scott and his partner took a loan out against their house and Scott's brother agreed to co sign the lease on the property. Then Scott put in an offer for the business. It was accepted on condition that he also pass the Post Office's screening process.

[Scott Darlington]

You have to go through an incredible identification check. They check into all your financial history and it has to be whiter than white. You can't have any blemishes anywhere. Things like that, enhanced criminal records checks and things like this.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott says the whole process took nearly a year. So they're really, they're really looking to make sure you're a good person before they give you this role.

[Scott Darlington]

Well, they were Very trusted. You know, the people in the Post Office, postmasters are very trusted. And they. You were kind of like a doctor. You were in that category, you know, the local doctor and everything, or policemen and stuff like that. People did actually hold postmasters in high esteem.

[Phoebe Judge]

After Scott passed the Post Office's background check, the next step was attending two weeks of training. He says it was mostly helping fake customers in a dummy branch. He was also taught how to use something called Horizon, the computer system that the Post Office had adopted in all of its branches in 1999.

[Scott Darlington]

It was a very large system at the time, it was the largest IT system in Europe. But when we started using it in training, it was very, very old fashion. I mean, it was literally running on Windows nt, which was discontinued, if I've got this right, in about 1996, and this was 2005 now. So it was an old clunky system, but it did seem to just about work.

[Phoebe Judge]

After he finished his training, Scott signed a contract with the Post Office and then the branch was his to run. Scott had inherited three staff members from the previous owners, including a man named Jack, who was 78 years old and had spent decades running his own Post Office. He told Scott to make sure to always keep the greeting cards well stocked. He said they sold really well. It's somebody's birthday every day. And what about just the job? I mean, was it fun to be interacting with customers and selling things?

[Scott Darlington]

Yeah, it was once. Once everything had calm down and knew what I was doing, which did take quite a long time. And I'd refurbished the shop and we got all new products in and everything. It was nice then. And I had music on. It was good fun. Everyone was encouraged to have a good laugh with the customers and so it was fun.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott got to know most of his customers. Alderley Edge is small, only about 5,000 people. The soccer player Ronaldo lived there for a few years when he played for Manchester United. And once he came into the shop to pay taxes on his sports car, Scott says he often had around £80,000 in cash on hand at the Post Office for things like pension payments. Once a week, a secure van would stop by to drop off stock or pick up cash.

[Scott Darlington]

And that was always a slightly dangerous time because that's the most likely time where you could have, you know, somebody could attack the Post Office because of money going over the counter like that. So it's always a bit worrying, but you got used to it.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott says one of the most tedious parts of the job was doing something called the office balance every week.

[Scott Darlington]

And when you came to do the balance, everything that you had in the office had to correspond with what the computer system also said. So if there's anything wrong, for instance, if I'd got 10,000 stamps and when I came to count them I'd only got 9,998, then I'd have to alter the system to reflect what was in the shop and that would make a little discrepancy in the cash amount then. So it was always slight discrepancies just from human error. Maybe giving somebody the wrong change, a pound difference, or giving someone some first class stamps when it should have been second class stamps and things like that. And every week you had, when you did the balance, you alter the system to suit what you've got in. And then it'd give you the figure that it was out. And it was usually four or five, six pounds or something like that. And as long as the discrepancies were only small like that, nobody really thought too much about it, you know, because there's always going to be a tiny bit of human error.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott would stay after work on Wednesdays to do the weekly balance on the Horizon system. He says at first it would take hours and then one day, three years into the job, there was a discrepancy that was a lot bigger than usual.

[Scott Darlington]

And the system's telling me I was £1,700 down in cash. The system thought I had £1,700 of stamps more in the branch than I actually had. Well, we all make slight mistakes, but there's no way any of the staff made a mistake with 1700 pounds worth of stamps. You know, that's like, it's like a suitcase full if you sort of mean it, it's just ridiculous. So we knew that it wasn't us, but we tried to, we recounted everything, double recounted, treble recounted. And we're still saying that we'd got this discrepancy.

[Phoebe Judge]

In training. Scott had been instructed to call a helpline if he ever had any trouble with the Horizon system.

[Scott Darlington]

So I rang the helpline and said, there's something wrong, it thinks I've got all these stamps I haven't got. And they basically said, well, how are you going to pay? You know, you're responsible.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott says he didn't want to risk violating his contract, so he paid. Did you ask your, your employees about it? Did you say what's going on?

[Scott Darlington]

Well, yeah, cause we were all shocked, you know, and everyone's dreading the next balance Then to see what happens.

[Phoebe Judge]

Then did it happen again?

[Scott Darlington]

Well, it did. I mean, I think the following few balances were within a few pounds again. And then all of a sudden, another big discrepancy. This time, I think it was for. I can't quite remember fully, it was either 4,000 or 6,000 pounds. And this is where the trouble started, because I didn't tell them, because I knew their reaction would be, well, how are you gonna pay? And I wouldn't be able to stand 6,000 just coming out like that, you know, there would be no help from them. So I thought, I've got to try and get to the bottom of it myself. So we used to stay till midnight sometimes reprinting out everything we'd done, going through everything we'd done to see if there's any transaction that pops out where someone's made a big error or anything like that. There was nothing, you know, everything was just. Nor we're all scratching our heads. We just couldn't understand this.

[Phoebe Judge]

And the total amount of money the system said was missing just kept growing week after week. How bad did it get?

[Scott Darlington]

Well, over the next few months, it got to £44,000.

[Phoebe Judge]

This must have been stressful.

[Scott Darlington]

Terrible. I mean, now I'm dreading every balance and it's going worse and it's going worse. The financial crash happened in 2008 and nine. We were in the middle of that and it was just getting all out of hand. And I was so stressed, I couldn't sleep. I was losing weight. It wasn't much fun to be doing this anymore at all.

[Phoebe Judge]

For about five months, Scott was able to operate without the Post Office knowing about the discrepancies. But then In February of 2009, Scott got a notification from Horizon that he had too much surplus cash at his branch and it told him to send in £50,000. But Scott didn't have that money.

[Scott Darlington]

So I ignored that request. And two days later, one of the Post Office auditors turned up on the doorstep and closed the branch for an audit.

[Phoebe Judge]

What did you think when they showed up?

[Scott Darlington]

I was kind of pleased, really, because I thought that, you know, somehow we'll get to the bottom of this. But the auditor, he asked me if I'd got the money in. The branch at Horizon was saying. And I said no. And he said, oh, right. Okay. So then he made a few phone calls, and they've got their own internal fraud squad at the Post Office who are not the police, but they've got similar powers. And the first thing they said to me is they read me by rights like the police do when they suspect you of committing an offence. And I said, oh, I thought you were here to help, but no. They then took me away in a car to another branch, a larger branch, and upstairs there was a room set aside with tape for tape, recorded interviews. And I was interviewed there. And they were stood up, shouting down at me, where is the money? Where have you put it?

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott says they wouldn't listen. When he tried to explain, they just kept insisting he'd stolen the money.

[Scott Darlington]

And I tell them, what's the point of stealing from your own business that you're responsible for? You know what I mean? It just didn't add up. But they wouldn't have it. And they came to look to search my house, and they could see that there was no all really nice television, sort of lovely car outside and things like that. So they realized there was nothing there.

[Phoebe Judge]

The investigators left, but they told Scott they were going to look at his financial records and that he needed to give them access to his bank accounts. He was also suspended. He decided to reach out to the sub Postmasters Union for help.

[Scott Darlington]

When I rang the general secretary, who's the top man, and told him my issue, I said, look, I've got these big discrepancies. What can you do to help me? And everything. And he just said, oh, before we start, have you got any gambling problems? He said to me, this was the head man of the union, so straight away I knew whose side he was on. And I said, hang on a minute, you know, I've got issues, you know, I need some help. And he's basically just dismissed me. And he put the phone down, literally. And I knew straight away that they weren't gonna help.

[Phoebe Judge]

Did you ever think for a second I, maybe I am making a mistake? Maybe someone is taking money, you know that. Did it ever cross your mind that, okay, maybe I am doing something wrong?

[Scott Darlington]

Yeah, it did. I mean, I had doubts. I just. I started thinking, what have I done? Maybe I've done this and not in denial, but I just haven't realized or don't notice that it's been me.

[Phoebe Judge]

About two months into his suspension, Scott received a letter saying his contract had been terminated. He was charged with theft and five counts of false accounting. He says his lawyer told him there was a risk he would go to prison, but if he pled guilty to the false accounting charges, it would be less likely.

[Scott Darlington]

So this was the first time a realized that there's a possibility I might be going to prison. Well, at that Time. My daughter was only eight. There was no way I could be going down to prison and her dad being in prison and things like this.

[Phoebe Judge]

Scott says he refused to plead guilty to theft and the Post Office ended up dropping the charge after Scott's lawyer discovered an internal document that stated that the Post Office had found no evidence of theft. But Scott took his lawyer's advice and pleaded guilty to false accounting. He says he could see how that could be true because he had covered up the discrepancies in the weekly balances.

[Scott Darlington]

And the judge decided I was guilty of fonts accounting. And he sentenced me to two months in prison, suspended for two years, which means you don't actually go in, but you still have the consequences of a criminal record.

[Phoebe Judge]

What were you telling your family and friends?

[Scott Darlington]

Yeah, it's very, very difficult. Only the very closest people realised what trouble I was in. My brother, my partner. My daughter hadn't told her much. She knew there was something wrong. But I didn't want her to know the ins and outs of all this financial dealings at only eight years old. So I kept it fairly quiet to her. I didn't tell her too much about it. My friends. There was only a couple of friends earlier confiding in about it because obviously this is. It's really grim, it's really awful. But after, when I'd been to court, though, and been found guilty, I was all over the newspapers. Then I got online hates, you know, from the online versions of the newspapers. And it was awful because now there's me on the front of the newspaper saying I've pleaded guilty to false accounting at Alden Ledge Post Office. So I presumed, and rightly so, that everybody would think I was guilty. Cause I'd pleaded guilty. It was very difficult to go around and say I wasn't guilty, really. You know, there was all these issues. So it just put me in an awful situation. Now I felt like a pariah in society, you know, walking around.

[Phoebe Judge]

He says he struggled to find a new job with his criminal record.

[Scott Darlington]

And I was 50 at the time as well, so I was freshly 50 with a nice new criminal record, looking for work. You know, this isn't easy.

[Phoebe Judge]

He became depressed and says he could barely function. At one point, he collapsed from stress and had to go to the hospital. He kept trying to figure out what had gone wrong and he kept thinking about the Post Office's computer system, Horizon. So one day he Googled it and he found a website with stories just like his. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. We'll be right back to listen without ads. Join Criminal plus. Thanks to Squarespace for their support. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place, no matter what you're working on. Whether it's a podcast, a special event, photography services, or a consultation business, you can customize your website to reach the right people. If you're creating video content like online courses, tutorials, or workshops, Squarespace has built in ways to support that. With Squarespace, you can upload your videos into an organized paywalled library, and they make it easy to collect payment with thoughtfully designed invoices and online payments. Plus, they have tools that make it convenient for people to keep in touch with you. Tools that help you send emails to potential customers or that let your customers schedule their own appointments. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Mint Mobile. Gift shopping can be hard, but Mint Mobile says they have a gift for anyone in your life who's hard to please. A great phone plan that's actually affordable. They're offering unlimited premium wireless for just $15 a month. We have a friend who switched to Mint Mobile and he says he wishes he'd done it sooner. It was easy, he kept his phone and contacts and the service works just as well this year. You don't have to just get them socks, you can get them Premium Wireless for $15 a month. You can shop Mint Unlimited [e-mail] Phoebe that's mintmobile.com Phoebe Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan, $90 for six month plan or $180 for 12. Required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term Only greater than 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. In November 2010, a journalist named Nick Wallace was working at the BBC in Surrey. One morning he got a message on Twitter from someone who worked at a local taxi company asking if the BBC needed drivers.

[Nick Wallace]

If we had a taxi account, I would have just forwarded the tweet to my manager and let them deal with it. But we didn't So I said something quite flippant like, oh, well, that depends on whether or not your drivers will come on air and tell us some of their great stories. And I got a response back saying, oh, I've got a story to tell you, all right? And I thought, oh, that's interesting.

[Phoebe Judge]

Nick exchanged numbers with the man who ran the taxi company, his name was Devender Misra, and gave him a call.

[Nick Wallace]

And over about 40 minutes, very tearful minutes, and at times slightly rambling, he told me that his pregnant wife had been thrown in prison for a crime she didn't commit. And his pregnant wife was called Seema Misra and she had been the sub postmaster at West Byfleet Post Office. So Seema had been convicted of theft because she was alleged to have stolen £74,000 worth of money from her sub post office. And the evidence against her came from the Horizon IT system, which said she had holes in her accounts. She was complaining all the time that she was having problems with this computer system, that she couldn't get the numbers to add up. And that's when the Post Office had told her, well, if she didn't make them good, she was going to lose her job as a sub postmaster. So she covered up these discrepancies that she was getting and the Post Office then decided that that was a criminal offense and they prosecuted her for false accounting and theft. Seema admitted false accounting, but she denied theft. She said low, I have never consciously taken any money out of this system. It's just disappeared.

[Phoebe Judge]

But Seema was found guilty of both false accounting and theft and sentenced to 15 months in prison. She was eight weeks pregnant. Nick was interested in the story and defender Misra told him there was someone else he should talk to, another former sub postmaster named Alan Bates.

[Nick Wallace]

He was sacked in 2003 for refusing to accept liability for discrepancies in his account. He said, it's not me, it's not my staff, I've trained them well. It's your IT system. It's creating these discrepancies. Give me the proper tools that I need to interrogate my accounts properly and then we will find the source of this discrepancy and we'll get it fixed. And the Post Office just said, no, the discrepancy is your liability. You make it good or you will get fired. And there was a standoff and Alan got fired. And he was so outraged by his treatment that he set up a website called postofficevictims.org and he asked for people who'd suffered at the Post Office's hands to get in touch. And by the time it got to 2009, they arranged their first meeting and there were only about 20 sub postmasters, former subpostmasters, who turned up at the meeting. But it was the first time they'd all met face to face and they shared their stories and they all realized that the Post Office had treated them in exactly the same way, whilst telling them that they were the only people having problems with the Horizon IT system.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Post Office in the UK dates back to the 1660s, when it was set up by King Charles II.

[Nick Wallace]

This was before Great Britain even existed. It's, we think, the oldest secular branch of government in existence. It was considered to be part of the fabric of the nation. It. It's very proudly run, it was always government owned and it was, I mean, it's a bit like the Pony Express in, in America, it has that kind of legendary status. And then in the 20th century, the image of the kindly couple running your local village sub Post Office, trustworthy, honest, center of the community, upstanding, entrepreneurial individuals who would always be looking out for people whilst providing the services that the Post Office did became embedded in the national psyche as well. So you had this slightly warm, fuzzy community image.

[Phoebe Judge]

The subpostmasters were handling things like people's pension payouts, banking deposits and withdrawals and utility bill payments. Before 1999, it was up to the sub postmasters to keep track of their transactions by writing everything down in a ledger.

[Nick Wallace]

And the Post Office hated it. And what they didn't like was the fact that when they handed over money from cash centres to an individual Post Office, they lost sight of it. They were entirely reliant on the trustworthiness of the sub postmaster and their signing of correct accounts. So when Horizon came along, it was like the Big Bang. It was going to open an electronic window on everything that was happening in a Post Office branch.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Post Office had contracted a software company called Fujitsu to develop Horizon. What they came up with was full of bugs and glitches. But Nick says the Post Office had already spent hundreds of millions of pounds on Horizon, so they decided to go.

[Nick Wallace]

Through with the rollout because the Post Office weren't carrying the financial liability the individual subpostmasters were.

[Phoebe Judge]

According to their contract, subpostmasters were responsible for any losses due to their negligence or error. And unless they could prove that any error was Horizon's fault, quote, deficiencies must be made good without delay. The sub postmasters weren't told about the flaws in the system. Nick says the training on how to use the system was inconsistent. Some subpostmasters received three weeks of training, but others were only given a single day. And at the time, some of the subpostmasters weren't very familiar with computers. They were told if they had trouble with the Horizon system, there was a.

[Nick Wallace]

Helpline they could call, which colloquially quickly became known as the Horizon Hell Line, whereby some postmasters who, if they couldn't make their numbers add up, were supposed to call up and get some guidance. It quickly transpired that the helpline that was available to subpostmasters was as patchy and ad hoc and sometimes downright inept as the training that they got. And they were often talking to frontline call center workers who knew less about the system than they did, who were working to a script and who told them what to do. And if that didn't solve the problem, chances are they would be told, well, it's, it's obviously a mistake at your end. You're going to have to make it good.

[Phoebe Judge]

Sometimes the calls to the helpline did end up being escalated enough that technicians would investigate, and sometimes they remotely implemented fixes.

[Nick Wallace]

But of course, the Post Office had a vested interest in not telling its sub postmasters about any errors in Horizon because it didn't want word getting out that it might be operating a substandard IT system. It was paranoid about protecting the reputation of this system because they'd bet the farm on it. So protecting the mothership became this prime directive of the Post Office. They could not countenance any criticism made privately by some postmasters, and certainly not publicly, because the whole edifice would come crashing down.

[Phoebe Judge]

Nick says the Post Office also told individual subpostmasters who reported issues that they were the only ones having problems and that it couldn't be Horizon.

[Nick Wallace]

And so they were told specifically by the Post Office, that it couldn't be the IT system because it was a computer system. It's like a glorified calculator. And it. And it works brilliantly. And no one has, has ever had a problem like the one that they're describing. So they were very, very much on their own. And it had an appalling effect on them because not only did they have to keep shoveling money into this system in order to get the books passed, but these were often very skilled business people who started doubting their own sanity because they could not understand how money was falling through their fingers and yet didn't know what they were doing wrong. And of course, it led to all sorts of paranoid issues. They would sack innocent staff because they assumed that they had to be the problem. In fact, they were often advised by their unions that they had to watch their staff like hawks. The Post Office sometimes said, well, who else works behind the counter? Well, if it's your wife, have you looked at what your wife's doing? You know, it broke, broke up families.

[Phoebe Judge]

Several former subpostmasters say that they became so overwhelmed with stress that they had a heart attack. By 2011, dozens of former subpostmasters, including Scott Darlington, who had bought the Post Office an Alderley Edge, had joined Alan Bates Group justice for Sub Postmasters Alliance. Scott remembers the first time he went to a meeting. People took turns telling their stories and.

[Scott Darlington]

Once you heard other people's stories, it was like a sense of relief that this. You knew for sure then that this wasn't you. But there's a long road ahead. I mean, even Alan said that, you know, we know there's some problem, but getting something done about it, there's another, you know, kettle of fish. And it could take years, if at all.

[Phoebe Judge]

By this time, Nick Wallace had begun reporting on the story, but he says it wasn't really picked up by the national media. But one member of Parliament did hear about it, and in 2012, he and other members of Parliament pressured the Post Office into starting an external investigation into the problem. The external investigators struggled to get the Post Office to cooperate. They said requests for documents were often delayed or ignored. One of the lead investigators, a forensic accountant named Ian Henderson, said that when they finally received everything, it didn't take long to realize that, quote, we may be looking at a significant number of miscarriages of justice. Within a year, the investigators released a report. It revealed that there were flaws in the horizon system.

[Nick Wallace]

And the Post Office was so appalled by this report that although it was forced to make the first iteration of this report public, it then engaged basically a black ops team to start undermining the credibility of this independent team and besmirching all their future work, literally issuing rebuttal documents to their own independent investigators over the course of the next two years that they were working for them. And so the Post Office knew it was sitting on a very, very serious problem. So we had the scandal of the prosecutions of these poor people being sent to prison despite not having committed a crime. And then from 2013 onwards, the post Office knew it had a problem and it did everything possible to stop that problem from becoming public.

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Scott Darlington]

The number of postmasters like myself had grown to 555, which became we were known as the 555.

[Phoebe Judge]

The judge assigned to the case decided to break proceedings up into separate trials. The first would focus on the contract the sub postmasters had signed with the Post Office. It began in November 2018 and many of the subpostmasters traveled to London from all over the country to attend. A lawyer representing them argued that the Post Office held too much power over the sub postmasters, partly because the contract itself was unfair and partly because many of the subpostmasters had never even seen the whole contract. Alan Bates testified that he'd only been sent three short documents and that he'd had no idea the full contract was 114 pages long. Another former subpostmaster testified that she'd taken over the job from her husband after he died. She said she'd never seen any contract and had never heard her husband mention it. And it turned out the Post Office had no record that he had ever signed a contract. The judge hadn't ruled on the first trial yet. When the second trial began three months later in March 2019, this trial would be investigating the Horizon System itself. A former employee from Fujitsu, the company that created the Horizon system, testified Richard.

[Nick Wallace]

Rolle worked at Fujitsu between 2001 and 2004 and he was hired to work in a team of 30 in the secure unit at the Fujitsu headquarters in Berkshire in the UK fixing problems with Horizon. They would deal with support tickets that came through that pointed to faults with hardware, software, communications, whatever. And he described the system as very, very shaky. In fact, he used a picture particular word which is quite rude to describe how bad the system was.

[Phoebe Judge]

What word did he use?

[Nick Wallace]

He said it was a pile of.

[Phoebe Judge]

Richard Roll also spoke about the work he'd done at Fujitsu and about doing something that the Post Office had said was not possible. Remotely accessing the Subpostmaster's Horizon terminals.

[Nick Wallace]

He said he and his colleagues went into the terminals that were sitting remotely on postmasters branch counters and fixed problems in them overnight. They even had the power to download everything that was in a postmaster's branch, look at all the code, alter it, including the numbers in the branch account, and then re download it.

[Phoebe Judge]

And it was important because before you know it was the Post Office was saying well, only the subpostmasters have access to the system. So they're the ones making the. The mistakes no one else could be making mistake.

[Nick Wallace]

Exactly that. The Post Office flatly denied that it or Fujitsu had any way of altering the branch accounts of a sub postmaster. And they had to deny it because they prosecuted these people on the basis that they were the only ones who had control of their accounts. Now, if remote access was not just possible, but people like Richard Roll had been doing it on a regular basis, then there was no way these prosecutions could be safe.

[Phoebe Judge]

And then in the middle of the second trial, the judge issued his ruling. On the first trial the judge wrote that parts of the subpostmaster's contract were quote, oppressive and that at times the Post Office acted as though it is answerable only to itself. He also wrote that during the trial one senior Post Office official had tried to mislead him and quote, paint the Post Office in the most favorable light possible, regardless of the facts.

[Nick Wallace]

And it was damning of the Post Office to the extent that the Post Office applied to have the judge booted off the case.

[Phoebe Judge]

The Post Office claimed that the judge was biased. The judge refused to remove himself. So the Post Office went to the Court of Appeal. But the Court of Appeal ruled that the Post Office's attempt to remove the judge was quote, absurd. When the second trial finally resumed, independent IT experts testified that they'd found dozens of bugs with the Horizon system and that they'd uncovered a report from 2001 that explicitly stated, there is a bug with Alan Bates Horizon terminal. Before the judge's ruling, the Post Office and the sub postmasters agreed to a settlement of £57,750,000. Nick says even though it looked like a big number, it didn't leave much for each individual sub postmaster. When Scott Darlington heard the news, he started doing the calculations.

[Scott Darlington]

45 million of that was taken up in legal fees. There was only 11 million left between the 5, 5, 5. Well, unfortunately, if you do the maths, it's only about 20,000 each. And most of us had lost our homes, our livelihoods, businesses, everything, you know, hundreds of thousands of pounds. This isn't going to touch the sides. So this was a bit of a. It was a great result, but a disastrous outcome financially for us all.

[Phoebe Judge]

And many of them, like Scott Darlington and Seema Misra, still had criminal convictions. The judge issued his ruling for the second trial five days after the settlement was announced. He wrote that the Post Office continuing to claim that Horizon was reliable was, quote, the 21st century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat. And then he said one last thing.

[Nick Wallace]

He was so gravely concerned about some of the evidence that he had seen given in previous trials where Post Office and Fujitsu witnesses had essentially given false evidence, that he was going to pass a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions, which he did, and the Director of Public Prosecutions passed that file on to the Metropolitan Police. And the Metropolitan Police started their investigation in January 2020 and it's still ongoing. It's called Operation Olympus. It's been running for five years now and they have said on the record that they are looking to start charging some of the people responsible in 2027 or 2028.

[Phoebe Judge]

After the post office settled in late 2019, the criminal cases Review Commission in the UK started referring cases of convicted subpostmasters to the Court of appeal. In December 2026, subpostmaster convictions were overturned. Seema Misra and Scott Darlington were both exonerated in April of 2021. A public inquiry began formally hearing evidence in 2022 and found a, quote, disastrous human impact and that at least 13 people affected by the Horizon errors have died by suicide. When we reached out to the Post Office Press Office for comment, they directed us to a statement on their website which reads, in part, we apologize unreservedly for the suffering which the Post Office caused to postmasters and their loved ones. At least 900 convictions have been tied to the Horizon errors. But by May 2024, only 103 of those had been overturned. That month, in what the Guardian called an unprecedented act of Parliament, the British government passed a law overturning all the remaining convictions. The Criminal Cases Review Commission has said it's, quote, the biggest single series of wrongful convictions in British legal history. Compensation plans have been set up for the subpostmasters affected by the Horizon errors, but many are still waiting to be paid.

[Nick Wallace]

And there are people who've applied for compensation who are nearing the end of their lives, who still haven't yet been processed by this, by this compensation system. So it's had to be taken off the Post Office. It's now in the hands of the government, which has added to the delays. And although a billion pounds in compensation has been paid out already, there are people with complicated cases who are unwell, who are desperate for money, who are potentially nearing the end of their lives, many of whom have died. I mean, we think the figures are now more than 200 people have died waiting for their full and final compensation.

[Phoebe Judge]

Five former subpostmasters, including Seema Misra, have received awards from the British state honoring their work campaigning for justice. Alan Bates was knighted. Scott Darlington still lives six miles outside Alderley Edge. Do you go into the Post Office branch to do things now? I mean, is it kind of bittersweet walking into the Post Office?

[Scott Darlington]

I don't go in, No. I have had to go in a couple of times in the last 16 years, but as a rule I don't go in. No.

[Phoebe Judge]

Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. This episode was mixed by Michael Rayfield. Our engineer is Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] Nick Wallace's book is the Great Post Office Scandal, the fight to expose a multi million pound IT disaster which put innocent people in jail. You can sign up for our [e-mail] Newsletter we hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal. Plus, you can listen to Criminal this is Love and Phoebe reads a mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spohr talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week, to things we've been enjoying lately to Learn more go to patreon.com criminal we're on Facebook @thisiscriminal and Instagram and TikTok criminalpodcast. We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com criminalpodcast criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. As marketing channels have multiplied, the demand for content has skyrocketed. But everyone can make content that's on brand and stand out. With Adobe Express, you don't have to be a designer to generate images, rewrite text and create effects. That's the beauty of generative AI that's commercially safe. Teams all across your business will be psyched to collaborate and create amazing presentations, videos, social posts, flyers and more. Meet Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on brand content. Learn [e-mail] Express Business Mercury knows that to an entrepreneur, every financial move means more. An international wire means working with the best contractors on any continent, a credit card on day one means creating an ad campaign on day two, and a business loan means loading up on inventory for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more all in one place, so that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group, Column NA and Evolve bank and Trust Members, FDIC.