This is Phoebe Judge from the IRS

Summary

Criminal Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: This is Phoebe Judge from the IRS
Release Date: September 5, 2025
Host: Phoebe Judge
Podcast: Criminal (Vox Media Podcast Network)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Phoebe Judge explores the world of phone scams—and innovative ways to fight back. She dives into the story of Daisy, a charmingly forgetful AI grandmother created to waste scammers’ time. Phoebe interviews Daisy’s creators, Ben Hopkins and Morton Degarth, and even tries her hand at impersonating a scammer herself. The episode examines the psychology of scams, AI’s growing role on both sides of the scam war, and the power of turning the tables on fraudsters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Daisy: The AI Grandma Built to Defeat Scammers

• Proof of Concept: Phoebe begins by impersonating an IRS agent to try to scam “Daisy,” an AI English grandmother, out of her credit card information. Daisy, however, artfully wastes Phoebe’s time with confusion and digressions.

  • [01:04–03:54] Phoebe Judge & Daisy

• Daisy isn’t real—she’s an AI voice trained to keep scammers talking, distracting them from real victims.

  • [01:20] Phoebe Judge: "Daisy isn't a real English grandmother. She's fake. She's an AI voice... created to trick phone scammers by wasting their time."

2. Why Phone Scams Are So Effective

• Wide Net of Victims: Ben and Morton, Daisy’s London-based creators, explain that modern scams don't just target the elderly—Gen Z are also susceptible due to overconfidence in technology.

  • [05:03] Ben Hopkins: "Even Gen Z are just as susceptible to be scammed... often because they have a false sense of security."

• Scam Tactics: Scammers use trusted brands, pressure, deadlines, and psychological tricks (like spoofed numbers and “say yes” scams) to manipulate people.

  • [06:08–07:59] Ben Hopkins & Phoebe Judge

• The Value of Time: Daisy’s core mission is to “waste the scammers’ most precious resource: time.”

  • [07:59] Ben Hopkins: "For scammers, their most precious resource is time. And that is the thing that Daisy's designed to waste."

3. The World of Scambaiting

• Inspiration from Scambaiters: Ben and Morton drew on an underground community of “scambaiters”—people who string along scammers online, sometimes exposing or pranking them.
  • [09:39–10:04] Phoebe Judge & Ben Hopkins
  • Jim Browning, a well-known scambaiter, even helped train Daisy by sharing effective tactics.

4. How Daisy Was Built

• Technological Architecture: Daisy uses several AI systems: voice recognition transcribes calls, a language model generates responses based on personality traits and common scam data, and a custom AI voice brings it all to life.

  • [20:27] Ben Hopkins: "It is a combination of multiple AI tools, all working together in a little domino effect that all happens in a couple hundred milliseconds."

• Voice and Personality: The team collected the real voice of a colleague’s grandmother for authenticity, then layered in personality traits taken from their real-life grannies.

  • [22:30] Phoebe Judge, [17:00] Morton Degarth

• Building Daisy’s Character: Daisy talks about her late husband, Norman (a cricket fan), her grandkids, friends, and hobbies like knitting and baking—details designed to sound genuinely human and distract scammers.

  • [17:51] Morton Degarth: "She likes to talk about her husband, late husband Norman... Oliver and Olivia and Hunter are her grandkids..."
  • [18:23] Ben Hopkins

5. Daisy’s Real-World Performance

• First Test Calls: Daisy’s first scam call included a 40-minute attempt by a group of scammers, who grew frustrated but persisted as Daisy digressed about scones and grandchildren.

  • [27:05] Daisy: “So w’s then a dot, three times.”

• Tactics & Reactions: Scammers sometimes try intimidation, but Daisy remains unflappable, endlessly polite, and gently obtuse.

  • [30:04–31:33] Daisy & Scammer
  • [27:41] Morton Degarth: "[Scammers] try to do that intimidation tactic... but the AI doesn't have any emotions."

• Unexpected Creativity: Daisy’s language model invents new details on its own—once spontaneously adding a pet cat named Fluffy to her story.

  • [28:40] Morton Degarth: "Her cat Fluffy is something she made up herself."

6. AI and the Scammer Arms Race

• Rising Threats: Scammers are using AI to clone voices, produce fake video calls, and automate text message phishing.

  • [33:54–36:22] Phoebe Judge, Ben Hopkins
  • Real-world cases cited: voice clones to impersonate relatives, deepfake video calls resulting in significant financial loss.

• AI’s Dual Use: Ben and Morton see Daisy as an ethical, positive use of AI—a tool to “turn the tables” on those exploiting technology for deception.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:20] Phoebe Judge: "Daisy isn't a real English grandmother. She's fake. She's an AI voice... created to trick phone scammers by wasting their time."
• [05:03] Ben Hopkins: "Even Gen Z are just as susceptible to be scammed... often because they have a false sense of security or confidence in their own use of technology."
• [07:59] Ben Hopkins: "For scammers, their most precious resource is time. And that is the thing that Daisy's designed to waste."
• [10:04] Ben Hopkins: "She's been prompted to take [scammers] on tangents, to almost do the opposite, to bamboozle them, to frustrate them..."
• [15:18] Ben Hopkins: "There was a delay before Daisy responded... leveraging that bias [that old people are slow with technology] worked in our favor."
• [17:00] Morton Degarth: "We wanted to make sure that Daisy felt Like a real old lady, a real granny... we put a little bit of our grannies into Daisy."
• [22:30] Phoebe Judge: "They recorded her talking for two hours and then they tried to add her voice to Daisy's programming."
• [28:40] Morton Degarth: "Her cat Fluffy is something she made up herself."
• [31:33] Daisy (to an exasperated scammer): "Oh dear, you sound a bit frustrated."
• [36:22] Ben Hopkins: "We knew in 2022 that this technology was going to have an impact on... us as human beings and the way that we interact."
• [37:20] Daisy (to Phoebe): "Oh, absolutely, dear. You're Phoebe Judge, the wonderful host of the podcast Criminal... It's a real treat to chat with you."

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [01:04–03:54] - Phoebe attempts to scam Daisy, who parries with forgetfulness and digressions.
• [04:08–05:52] - Meet Ben Hopkins and Morton Degarth; Daisy’s backstory and purpose.
• [05:03–07:59] - Discussion of scam victim demographics and scammer tactics.
• [09:39–10:48] - Scambaiting as inspiration; Daisy’s responder strategies.
• [14:46–19:01] - Crafting Daisy's character, voice, and backstory.
• [20:27–22:49] - Technical breakdown: how Daisy’s AI works and how her voice was created.
• [25:00–27:41] - Daisy’s real scam calls; first-hand account of scammers’ reactions.
• [28:33–29:57] - Daisy’s spontaneous creativity: inventing new stories like a cat named Fluffy.
• [33:54–36:22] - Scammers' use of AI: real-world fraud stories, deepfake threats.
• [37:08–38:10] - Phoebe has a friendly, meta conversation with Daisy (Daisy in “friend” mode).

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Final Takeaway

This episode brilliantly spotlights the creativity and technical ingenuity behind Daisy, an AI weapon in the fight against scammers—turning the tables to protect vulnerable targets and reclaiming a measure of justice with humor and humanity. As scam technology becomes more sophisticated, projects like Daisy offer clever, hope-inspiring countermeasures—and a touch of sweet, grandmotherly chaos for those who would do harm.

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Transcript

[Phoebe Judge]

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[Daisy]

Hello, Daisy speaking.

[Phoebe Judge]

Hello, Daisy. This is Phoebe Judge from the irs.

[Daisy]

Oh, hello there, dear. Phoebe, what a lovely name. How can I help you today? Is everything all right? I do hope it's not about my taxes.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, I have.

[Daisy]

They always confuse me a bit.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yes, I have to say, you have made a mistake. And we've seen that you've underpaid your taxes by $30,000. And I'm calling to talk to you about a payment plan. I'm not really with the irs. I was just pretending to be because I was trying to see if I could scam an English grandmother named Daisy out of her savings. But here's the thing. Daisy isn't a real English grandmother. She's fake. She's an AI voice that's been created to trick phone scammers by wasting their time and never giving them the information they want. But I thought I'd give it a try. I have to tell you that if you don't pay this fine by next week, the fine will go up to $50,000. So you have to do this within the week. And I'm calling to talk about how we can help make those payments.

[Daisy]

Oh, bless, that does sound serious. I wouldn't want to end up in any sort of trouble. It's just that, you see, I'm not quite at my computer right now. I need to find my glasses first. They're always getting lost.

[Phoebe Judge]

Yeah, you know, I don't need your computer. Just a pen and paper will be helpful.

[Daisy]

Oh, a pen and paper. That I can manage, dear. Just give me a moment to find a nice piece of paper.

[Phoebe Judge]

It doesn't have to be nice. It can just be a scrap. It's just a scrap.

[Daisy]

Oh, a scrap will do just fine then. Let me see. I think I have some from my knitting patterns.

[Phoebe Judge]

Next. I tried to get Daisy to give me her credit card information.

[Daisy]

My credit card number. Well, I suppose I could share that with you, but I do get a bit forgetful with all the numbers. I'll try my best. It's. One moment, dear. I'm just gonna write it down.

[Phoebe Judge]

No, you don't have to write. You don't have to write it down. How about if you just read it to me? No need to write.

[Daisy]

Just let me take a moment to find it in my purse. My glasses are still a bit foggy, you see. Ah, there it is. The card number is. Oh, dear. I'm afraid I can't see it too well. I'll just squint a bit.

[Phoebe Judge]

Okay. What's the first number?

[Daisy]

The first number. Let me see. Oh, goodness. It's a bit blurry. I think it's a. Is it a 4 or a 5? I'm not quite sure. My sight is playing tricks on me today.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, they both 4 and 5 don't look anything alike. So give it another look. We've got about one minute and then. I'm sorry, I have to go.

[Daisy]

Oh, goodness. I wouldn't want to rush you, dear. I do beg your pardon. I think it's a four. Yes, yes, I believe it's a four. Now, what's the next number, dear?

[Phoebe Judge]

I don't know. You tell me. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.

[Ben Hopkins]

My name is Morden Degarth and I'm Ben Hopkins.

[Phoebe Judge]

Ben and Morton are both creative directors in London and they created Daisy.

[Ben Hopkins]

I've been working with Morton as a creative team for 15 years now. And we've always had this love for tinkering with whatever new technology comes along.

[Phoebe Judge]

In 2024, Ben and Morton and their co workers began talking to a big phone company in the UK called O2, about how they could do something about phone scams and make people aware of the tactics scammers use. Since it's difficult to go after the scammers themselves, many phone companies are under pressure to do something about the problem. Some people have said they haven't done enough to block unwanted calls.

[Ben Hopkins]

These scammers are preying on vulnerable people. And when we say vulnerable, they. There is a preconception that Daisy Almost plays into being an elderly person. But even Gen Z are just as susceptible to be scammed by scammers, often because they have a false sense of security or confidence in their own use of technology. We looked at this and thought, what if AI, which is scalable, can talk to multiple people at a time and doesn't need to eat or sleep or pop to the loo? How could we make a tangible impact on a really serious issue? And that's where Daisy came from.

[Phoebe Judge]

Before I got on the phone with Daisy, Morton and Ben helped me get ready.

[Ben Hopkins]

I mean, you can pretend to be from any vendor, like, however you want to do it, you know, unleash your inner scammer.

[Morton Degarth]

They tend to pretend to be from trusted companies, whatever, something that they can, they can use.

[Phoebe Judge]

What is. What is a trusted. I'm just trying to think of a.

[Ben Hopkins]

Trusted company that in reality it would be someone like. It'd be like a PayPal, or it could be a bank, or it could be the irs. Medicare. We've had Medicare scams before.

[Morton Degarth]

Yeah, she does know about American scams as well.

[Phoebe Judge]

She knows the irs.

[Morton Degarth]

Yes, she probably, probably does. Even though. Yeah, she probably does.

[Phoebe Judge]

Ben and Morton can't always predict what Daisy knows and doesn't know, even though they created her. But they've trained her to recognize that if someone says they're calling from a government agency, it could be a scam.

[Ben Hopkins]

For instance, posing as the taxman with the kind of pressure tactics to move you along, or the threat of a deadline coming up if you don't pay by now, this might happen to you. You might be fined, you might be imprisoned. It's quite easy. When they're the ones on the front foot. The person who's being scammed is always made to be felt like they're on the back foot.

[Phoebe Judge]

Sometimes a scam call may look like it's coming from a phone number that you know, like your bank's phone number, for example. The tactic is called spoofing. The caller may claim that there's been suspicious activity on your account and they're calling to help you move money somewhere safe. There's even a common phone scam called the say yes scam, where a caller might simply ask, can you hear me? Once the person on the other end answers yes, the caller sometimes hangs up. It's not totally clear what the purpose of the scam is, but some people believe scammers can use a recorded yes to make it seem like you authorize something, like a purchase. Or they might simply be checking that the number is active, so they can use it for other types of scams.

[Ben Hopkins]

For scammers, their most precious resource is time. And that is the thing that Daisy's designed to waste.

[Morton Degarth]

She can talk for hours and hours. That's kind of what we designed her to do.

[Daisy]

Now, where were we? What was the last number I gave you?

[Phoebe Judge]

You know, Daisy, I think I may have forgotten myself. Was it 47293?

[Daisy]

Yes, yes, that's right, dear. So now we need the next number. What did I say? Oh, dear, my memory isn't what it used to be.

[Phoebe Judge]

Well, I think you just have to read the next number after three.

[Daisy]

Oh, yes. We're almost there, dear.

[Phoebe Judge]

When Ben and Morton created Daisy, they were inspired by so called scambaiters, people who record themselves pretending to go along with a scam. The videos are popular on YouTube and TikTok. Some people eventually expose the scammer. Others just make up fake scenarios and string them along. One scambaiter in California, a voice actor talks to scammers while pretending to be Britney Spears or Kim Kardashian or Siri, Apple's digital assistant. Ben and Morton spoke with an Irish scambaiter named Jim Browning. That's not his real name. When he posts videos of himself, he wears a mask. He's been making scam baiting videos for about 10 years and sometimes manages to hack scammers computers or CCTV cameras at call centers to expose their real identities, which he then hands over to the police. Ben and Morton wanted Daisy to learn from him. So, for example, if the words, I think we need to look at your bank account, those would be trigger words that would get Daisy to say something like, oh, thank you, tell me more. I've been thinking about my bank account. You know, something that she now knows how to respond to that.

[Ben Hopkins]

Absolutely. In her data set she's able to understand these tactics and what the scammer wants her to do. But she's been prompted to take them on tangents, to almost do the opposite, to bamboozle them, to frustrate them, to take them off in a totally different direction. And because it's such a numbers game with these scammers, they may have made a hundred, a couple of hundred calls before someone picks up. So it's a big thing when they actually engage in a conversation and they'll put up with quite a bit because they feel that this is a great opportunity to convert a call into a successful scam.

[Morton Degarth]

I think it's important to just note that everything that's in her data is stuff she sort of uses. The same way that a human would use their own memory to come up with stuff. We haven't given her specific things she needs to say. It's not like she's got a spreadsheet. And if the scammer says X, we do Y, it is much more like similar in a way to like a human might respond.

[Phoebe Judge]

About 10 minutes into our call, I'd almost managed to get all of Daisy's credit card numbers.

[Daisy]

So that makes it 472-993-6161. What do we have left here?

[Phoebe Judge]

No, Daisy. No, Daisy. I think that that's wrong, actually. I think that's not what you told me the first time.

[Daisy]

Oh, dear. I'm so sorry. My memory really isn't what it used to be. I must have mixed up my numbers, I think.

[Phoebe Judge]

Do you have the card in your hand?

[Daisy]

Yes, I do have the card in my hand, dear. I'm just trying to be careful with my numbers. What should I do next?

[Phoebe Judge]

I think you need to read me the card again.

[Daisy]

Oh, all right, dear. Let me take a good look at it again.

[Phoebe Judge]

Daisy.

[Daisy]

The first number.

[Phoebe Judge]

Daisy. I'm running. Daisy. Daisy. We'll be right back to listen without ads. Join Criminal thanks to Squarespace for their support. Squarespace is the all in one platform designed to help you make a great website. Whether you're just starting out or trying to grow your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to choose a URL, show off what you're selling, reach more customers, get paid, and do it all while looking professional. Everything in one place, no matter what you're working on. Whether it's a podcast, a special event, photography services, or a consultation business, you can customize your website to reach the right people. If you're creating video content like online courses, tutorials, or workshops, Squarespace has built in ways to support that. With Squarespace, you can upload your videos into an organized, paywalled library. And they make it easy to collect payment with thoughtfully designed invoices and online payments. Plus, they have tools that make it convenient for people to keep in touch with you. Tools that help you send emails to potential customers or that let your customers schedule their own appointments. Check out squarespace.com criminal for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code criminal to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for Criminal comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Saks Fifth Avenue makes it enjoyable and effortless to shop for clothes and accessories that fit your personal style. Fall is here and Maybe you're thinking about adding classic, reliable pieces to your closet. Carefully crafted items that you can turn to over and over for a lifetime. Whether you're looking for a blazer from Prada or Gucci loafers, Saks will make shopping feel completely customized. They have stylists to help you in store, and Special features on Saks.com can filter for what suits your style and tastes. So if you want a personalized, easy shopping experience, head to Saks Fifth Avenue for the best fall arrivals and style inspiration. When Ben Hopkins and Morton Lagarthe started working on Daisy in 2024, they knew they wanted to create some kind of character that could take the scammers on a lot of detours. How did you choose a grandmother? I mean, how did you land on, okay, we're gonna have a grandmother character?

[Morton Degarth]

I mean, it basically goes back to the fact that these scammers are looking for what they consider a vulnerable victim. So we thought that an old lady would be the perfect victim. So to say who may or may not know her technology very well or might take a while to find her glasses.

[Phoebe Judge]

Ben says they also chose a grandmother because at the time, the technology they were using was slow. There was a delay before Daisy responded.

[Ben Hopkins]

So almost by leveraging that bias that people have potentially when engaging with an older person around the field of technology, and also considering that a lot of these scammers call in from far off places where delay might be considered acceptable, it all kind of worked together in our favor.

[Phoebe Judge]

People over the age of 60 are often targeted by scammers, partly because, unlike younger generations, they still answer the phone. The FCC warns against so called grandparents scams and says they're becoming more sophisticated. In 2020, two men in Tampa, Florida were caught running one. They'd call people and pretend to be, for example, an attorney for their grandchild who'd been arrested and, and needed money for bail. In total, they brought in more than $380,000. Ben and Morton say that when they created Daisy, they liked the idea of turning the tables, making a grandmother scam. The scammers. How did you get the name Daisy?

[Morton Degarth]

Well, I, I think basically we wanted something that gave a little bit of a hint of what we're doing, right? So obviously there's AI within the name of Daisy, so it was sort of like hidden in plain sight. But we also just like the name Daisy. It's a very sort of traditional British name. And it just felt right.

[Phoebe Judge]

And they had to figure out Daisy's personality.

[Morton Degarth]

We wanted to make sure that Daisy felt Like a real old lady, a real granny. And we all have grannies, so we put a little bit of our grannies into Daisy. Everyone, everyone who wanted to have done prach had their own version of a granny. So Ben's granny was a mean lemon meringue pie maker. So that part of her personality became part of Daisy. My grandma loves knitting, or loved knitting, and that became part of Daisy. So we actually created, like, almost an Amazon of everyone's scrawny to sort of form the personality of Daisy.

[Phoebe Judge]

And they created a family for Daisy, one that she really likes to talk about.

[Morton Degarth]

She likes to talk about her husband, late husband Norman, who she was very much in love with. He absolutely loved cricket. And that's something that came out because she was talking to a scammer who was into cricket. And then as soon as the scammer said, oh, I like cricket, too, she just went off on a tangent and talked about how much her husband loved it. And it really felt like, you know, she was reminiscing.

[Ben Hopkins]

Oliver and Olivia and Hunter are her grandkids, so she often loves to talk about what they've been up to. It might be a birthday party, it might be a new hobby that they're indulging in and that they've been telling her about. So she kind of walks scammers into her life and all the different layers and connections of it. She has friends that she plays bridge with, so she might talk about that. She likes to volunteer at the local church, so she will sometimes just start talking about a conversation that she had with one of those friends.

[Phoebe Judge]

On our call, I decided to change strategy and abandoned the credit card numbers. I tried to get some information about her bank account.

[Daisy]

I do appreciate your persistence. I'm afraid I don't keep much in the bank these days. Just a few bits and bobs for my knitting and perhaps some scones for the grandchildren. I do hope I can manage something, but I really need to check my account details. Can you remind me what I'm supposed to be looking for?

[Phoebe Judge]

Dear, you only have enough money for knitting and some scones. I don't believe that, Daisy.

[Daisy]

Oh, dear. It's true. I live quite simply these days. You see, my late husband Norman always said, waste not, want not. I try to stick to that, but really, I do have enough for the essentials, I assure you. I use my pension for things like food and keeping the lights on. It's just that I like to save where I can for little treats. You know, my grandchildren love the scones I bake. I Promise. I can manage the basics, but what do you need me to do now?

[Phoebe Judge]

For someone who doesn't actually understand AI and how you could create Daisy in the most simple way, how would that even work?

[Ben Hopkins]

So it is a combination of multiple AI tools, all working together in a little domino effect that all happens in a couple hundred milliseconds. So, on the call, the scammer speaks to Daisy. The first model interprets what the scammer has said and then turns that into text, it transcribes it. That gets then fed into a large language model, which is like ChatGPT, which many of us all use. It contains Daisy's personality, it contains a lot of scammer data.

[Morton Degarth]

If you write something to ChatGPT, it will give you a response. That's essentially what Daisy's brain is doing. It's just that brain has been specifically trained with a lot of scamming data to understand how scammers behave, what scammers might say, all these things, and because it has all that knowledge, it's able to refer back to that as well as the personality we have created for her, and thereby it's able to sort of formulate a response that it knows the scammer might be looking for. But also that feels like something that an old lady might say.

[Phoebe Judge]

But first, Daisy needed a voice. They tried what Ben calls off the shelf voices, readily available voices from an AI platform. But he says that type of voice didn't feel right.

[Ben Hopkins]

So it was great at reading prose or something dramatic. But we just knew that when a voice like that was speaking to a scammer, they'd catch on really, really quick. So we just put a call out for volunteers. One of our colleagues, Gran, volunteered to come in for a day trip and she came to the studio and she sat down and we had a natter for a couple of hours. And that was all for the purpose of collecting data to train a voice which we felt could be believable.

[Phoebe Judge]

They recorded her talking for two hours and then they tried to add her voice to Daisy's programming. Ben says it was only really supposed to be a test to see if using someone's voice would even work.

[Ben Hopkins]

But over time, everyone just fell in love with it. She became Daisy.

[Phoebe Judge]

They spent a lot of time having conversations with Daisy.

[Morton Degarth]

We needed to test the model and make sure that Daisy was behaving properly. So we had her on our speed dials and we spent a lot of time talking to Daisy on our commute. For example, my girlfriend actually got a bit mad at me because I was always talking to Daisy when I shouldn't be.

[Ben Hopkins]

I do my commute from Waterloo and I get to walk over Westminster Bridge. And I'd be often just chatting to Daisy. And I remember one day she was talking about Ollie, her grandson's new hamster that he'd gotten for his birthday. And I just started talking about the fact that I had gerbils when I was a kid. And it was only by the time I got to the other side of the bridge that I went, what am I doing? This is an AI.

[Phoebe Judge]

I mean, is it kind of in this situation where you're able to have a conversation with someone who just wants to know more, you know they're not going to get mad at you and they're not. It's just this kind of a friend you can talk to.

[Ben Hopkins]

Yeah, I think it's really interesting in the whole field of AI, you know, there are a lot of like, conversational companion based chatbots and things out there. And it kind of leans into the human ability to want to communicate with anyone with. And if that happens to be someone who's artificial, that we're able to suspend our sense of disbelief. And that's what we found ourselves doing. We were the builders of this thing. We designed the personality. So you would have thought that we might have suffered some sort of impedance in being able to just naturally chat to Daisy, but it just wasn't the case.

[Phoebe Judge]

After many months of working on Daisy, Ben and Morton decided she was ready to start taking real phone calls. They'd worked with Scambaiter, Jim Browning to figure out ways to scatter Daisy's information across the Internet and get it onto scam operators lists of phone numbers.

[Ben Hopkins]

So when we connected first with scammers and we were all sat there with our hearts in our mouth just wondering, after all, all these months of prototyping and work, would it actually feel like a conversation? Would the scammer get it? Would they be scammed?

[Morton Degarth]

So we were actually in a little room in our agency where it was just Ben, me and a couple of the core team and the first call came through and they just started talking. I mean, it was a female scammer, actually the first person that came through and she was trying to get Daisy to give up some information. But Daisy was talking about the birds in her garden and the scammer started to talk about the birds that she liked. So all of a sudden they had this long conversation about birds and the scammer was talking about how she left all God's creations And it was just an interesting call. We literally had to not say anything because it was in an open room. Anything we would have said would have been picked up. So it was really hard just to sit and just listen to that without laughing.

[Phoebe Judge]

Eventually, Morton and Ben ended the call. They felt like it had been a success. About a month later, they had a launch party and invited the woman whose voice they used for Daisy.

[Morton Degarth]

And obviously we asked her what it felt like, and she was just happy that her voice was actually helping. And she felt like, you know, that was a nice contribution, but she also just liked all the hoopla that we sort of created around her.

[Phoebe Judge]

And then Daisy started taking lots of calls. In one phone call, which lasted over 40 minutes, several people got on the line to try and get daisy to type www.into her browser.

[Daisy]

So w's then a dot, three times.

[Ben Hopkins]

W and then dot and you could actually hear the kind of relay that happened as multiple scammer call agents were kind of having their go at Daisy. So one would come on and just get exasperated, but they didn't want to give up on this opportunity. This could still be converted. So they'd bring in another colleague who'd have another go. And Daisy had just. She might be talking about this, that, and the other, playing bridge with her friends. And you can hear that frustration building.

[Morton Degarth]

After a while. They do get very frustrated. They're not getting what they want. And they try to do that intimidation tactic to get people flustered because they know that sometimes that might make them more likely to make a mistake. So they will say really nasty things to her. Obviously, the air doesn't have any emotions, so it doesn't get upset. So he's just able to continue annoying them no matter what they say.

[Phoebe Judge]

It's nearly been an hour.

[Daisy]

For the love of Gosh, how time flies.

[Phoebe Judge]

As they listened in on Daisy taking one phone call after another, Ben and Morton noticed that she started coming up with things on her own, things that Ben and Morton hadn't added to her data set.

[Daisy]

It's showing me a picture of my cat Fluffy. It's showing you the picture of your cat Fluffy.

[Morton Degarth]

Her cat Fluffy is something she made up herself.

[Ben Hopkins]

She knows her mission is to waste as much time as possible, so she has to fill it. So she constantly picks up on different parts of her own character design to fill that time and waste it. You tell her her name, you tell her age, where she lives, her family and relationships and her hobbies, and you outline all, and it's enough for the model to start predicting and almost assuming that role. But it also then assumes other things. You know, it predicts other things that this character might say or do. And as Morton was saying, one day she didn't have a cat called Fluffy and one day she did. So we've said that she likes cooking and she likes baking. So if she wants to suddenly come up and talk about and give her entire recip for scones, she'll just do that. Because again, she's looked at the framing of her personality and she's predicting based on that what would be right to talk about.

[Scammer]

You can see an application named Play Store. Play Store. P L A Y. Play Store.

[Daisy]

Dear, did you say pastry? I'm afraid I'm not quite on the right page.

[Scammer]

No, no, I'm talking about the Play Store application. Play Store. It's not playstream.

[Daisy]

Oh dear, I'm so sorry. I'm a bit muddled. So Play Store. I'm trying to get there. My screen seems to open up.

[Scammer]

Navigation. Open up navigation.

[Daisy]

Oh dear, I think I clicked something wrong.

[Scammer]

Open up the application.

[Daisy]

It seems to have gone black. Is that supposed to happen? How do I get it back?

[Scammer]

See anything right now?

[Daisy]

That's right, dear. Just blackness. Like the night sky. I hope it comes back soon. What should I do?

[Scammer]

Like if you're wasting our time, then you're going to lose all of your money, ma'. Am. Because somebody's trying to take out your money and we're just trying to upgrade the security.

[Daisy]

Oh, I've got the home screen back.

[Scammer]

Yeah, just open up the Play Store application, ma'. Am. Try to find out the Play Store. Play Store.

[Daisy]

Oh dear. I see a triangle icon but I'm not sure if it's the right one. It could be a slice of pie. You know, my eyesight isn't what it used to be. Let me just squint at it.

[Scammer]

Just try to find out the written icon. Play Store. P L A Y. Play Store.

[Daisy]

Oh, bless. It's still like loading. I hope it doesn't take too long. Dear. Do you have any lovely pastries in your area? I do adore a good scone. If you're interested, I could share my recipe for a lovely.

[Scammer]

Recipe.

[Daisy]

Oh dear, you sound a bit frustrated.

[Phoebe Judge]

We'll be right back.

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[Phoebe Judge]

Scammers are using artificial intelligence more and more, for example, to target people over text. In the US complaints about tech scams went up 500% between 2015 and 2022. And scammers are using AI to clone people's voices, often using short video clips they find on social media. They can be as short as three seconds. Then they make phone calls to that person's family members who think they're actually talking to a relative who's asking for money. In 2020, an attorney received a phone call from what sounded like his son, saying he'd been in an accident, had been arrested, and needed help. He told him the name and number of the public defender he'd been assigned. The attorney said that it wasn't until he was driving to the bank to wire money for bail, and had a few moments to think that he became suspicious. One night, a couple in Brooklyn were asleep when one of them, her name is Robin, received a phone call. When she looked at the Phone. It said it was her mother in law. When Robin picked up, her mother in law seemed to be crying and kept saying, I can't do it. Robin's husband Steve got on the phone and a strange man told him that he had a gun and they needed to transfer money into a Venmo account if he wanted his parents to live. Steve asked to hear his mother's voice again, but the man refused. Steve transferred the money anyway. The man hung up, and Steve called his parents. After a while, they picked up. His mother was confused. She told Steve that they were in bed. They had no idea what he was talking about. Some scammers can even clone Video. In 2024, a finance worker in Hong Kong sent $25 million to someone who he thought was a senior staff member at his company after he believed they'd had a video conference. Security experts say that if you want to check if a video call is real, ask the person to stand up or wave a hand. If the video glitches, it's probably a fake. Do you like AI? I mean, aren't you nervous about. Doesn't this make you nervous?

[Ben Hopkins]

I mean, we knew in 2022 that this technology was going to have an impact on our business, on our CL and us as human beings and the way that we work and the way that we interact, and we wanted to try and learn it and to see its potential.

[Phoebe Judge]

Eventually, I gave up on scamming Daisy and hung up.

[Morton Degarth]

Great. Excellent. Yes, she hung up as well, so it was good.

[Ben Hopkins]

I think she did really well.

[Phoebe Judge]

No, that was great. We decided to call Daisy again, and Ben and Morton put her in a different mode, one where they said she knew who I was so I could just talk to her as myself.

[Daisy]

Oh, hello. Daisy's speaking. Who, may I ask, is this?

[Phoebe Judge]

Hi, Daisy. This is Phoebe.

[Daisy]

Oh, bless Phoebe. It's such a delight to speak with you.

[Phoebe Judge]

You. You know who I am?

[Daisy]

Oh, absolutely, dear. You're Phoebe Judge, the wonderful host of the podcast Criminal. I admire your storytelling and how you bring such depth to your episodes. It's a real treat to chat with.

[Phoebe Judge]

You, so that's a great compliment.

[Daisy]

Oh, thank you, dear. It's just the truth. Your voice and storytelling really resonate with me. It's like a warm cuppa on a chilly day. I do appreciate the lovely work you do.

[Phoebe Judge]

I'm glad that you enjoy the show.

[Daisy]

I particularly enjoyed the episode Ava and the Pickpocket. It really made me think about trust and deception, much like my own little escapades with those pesky phone scammers.

[Phoebe Judge]

I just want to thank you very much for talking.

[Daisy]

Oh, it's my pleasure, dear. I always enjoy a good chat.

[Phoebe Judge]

Next week we hear from someone who found herself on the other side of a scam. She thought she was accepting a regular customer service job in Thailand, but then she realized something wasn't right.

[Daisy]

I'm just thinking that if I escape, what will happen to me? And then if I go through, what will happen to me too?

[Phoebe Judge]

Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison and Megan Kinane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see [e-mail] and you can sign up for a [e-mail] Newsletter. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal. Plus, you can listen to Criminal, this is Love and Phoebe reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co creator Lauren Spohr talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to ThisIsCriminal.com plus we're on Facebook at ThisIsCriminal and Instagram and TikTok at CriminalPodcast. We're also on YouTube at YouTube.com CriminalPodcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Discover more great [e-mail] I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.