← Criminally Obsessed
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone, I'm Ann Emerson and this is Criminally Obsessed. Hawaii is beautiful. The lush landscapes, pristine water and thick rainforests. But there are secrets hiding in paradise. The big mystery on the Big Island. How do people just seem to vanish?
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B
The lore on the island is that, you know, you be careful who you talk to, be careful what you do, or you'll get thrown down a lava tube.
- [00:28]
A
Nearly 100 people have gone missing over the past five, five years. And I've been wondering what's going on until police made a recent arrest. A man now charged with three murders. His name is Jacob Baker and he's got a very interesting tattoo on his cheek that I'm going to tell you about later. But did he have anything to do with these missing people or did he know something?
- [00:53]
B
People knew he was there. They didn't call police because they're scared. They're scared of him. They're scared of who he may be connected to. And to me, that's really alarming.
- [01:04]
A
I had to ask Kristen Thorne. She's been investigating these missing people in her law and crime documentary, Vanished in Paradise. Dark Secrets on the Big Island. And what she uncovered is jaw dropping. Now let's get into it. Well, Kristen, thank you so much for joining me. I love talking to you about these stories that you're working on. And this particular, you know, missing person's case out of Hawaii on the Big island is unbelievable. Tell me how you ended up getting involved in it.
- [01:39]
B
So I actually was at wabc, and after I had my show on Hulu Missing, I kind of became known as the missing person. This is the person you go to. So I would get inquiries from all over the country from people. And at the time I was just doing missing persons cases in the New York area. That's what the show was about. And I got a Facebook message from a woman who said her cousin had disappeared on the Big island of Hawaii. His name was Kelly Gravett, a Purple Heart recipient. Gone. And she said, you really should look into all the missing people from the Big Island. And I started to look at it and I was like, oh, my goodness, there really. There's something here. But again, my missing person's cases were just from New York at that time. So flash forward to about two years, maybe three years later. I have now left wabc and I, I remember it. I was like, oh, my goodness, what about that woman that contacted me from about the Big Island? And I reached out to her again and she was willing to do an interview. And then I just started digging. I really wanted to look at what police had publicly put out. Right. You know, as a journalist, you gotta go find the information. So I go on the Big Island Police department's website and I start looking at their press releases for their missing people. And there's so many of them. So I start an Excel spreadsheet and start keeping track. And I decided to go back five years and I documented name, age, race, sex, where they disappeared from. And a pattern emerged. First of all, I got up to 97 people in the last five years. That's pretty incredible. The. Now how does that fit in?
- [03:17]
A
Like national averages? Were you able to kind of put that in perspective for us?
- [03:20]
B
Yeah, so I get this a lot. It's slightly higher than the national average. Here's what I think is surprising about this or that deserves public attention. I think people assume that Hawaii and these islands and certain places are safe and for the most part they are. But there is a level, I believe, of crime that contributed to a good part of these disappearances. And when you look at the average missing person from the Big island of Hawaii is a 44 year old white male.
- [03:55]
A
Do you think this is a coincidence? Like some terrifying coincidence or do you think this is, this is actually targeted attack on these?
- [04:03]
B
So I think it's a few things. I think some are obviously people who have taken their own life. That is always at play here. There are certainly people who go to islands to disappear. The ones that I'm concerned about and I can, and I investigate them in the episode. And then there's other ones that I question. I think there's, there's a few things going on. One, you know, people in the Big island are, and this is kind of throughout Hawaii. They're not particularly welcoming to people from the mainland. Okay. They have their culture. They have been born and raised on this island. There is a sense that the outsiders have ruined the serenity and the peacefulness and the beauty of their island. And so when you come from the outside, most of the people, I think 95 or so or more than 90 of the people who have disappeared or are from the mainland, these are people who, these are not native Hawaiians. These are people who have come there seeking a new life, wanting to retire. And there is a conflict there. And I think even the locals will acknowledge that. So I think that people from the mainland who move there are living in areas where they are interacting with locals. They may not be respecting, you know, the, the culture or maybe they're clashing a little bit. And so that can create conflict the other thing I think is going on is there is a criminal enterprise operating because several of these disappearances involve stolen vehicles. So the.
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A
I was just about to ask about that. So it seems to have a common thread with these sort of stolen or abandoned vehicles. Right. Is this, Is this connected to. How do you. How are you connecting the dots here?
- [05:52]
B
So there are several of these cases. The missing. The person is gone, the car is found. This is consistent in several. At least four to five of these cases. And what I think is happening because the people who end up turning in these cars sometimes are associated. They live off the grid. So there is a part of the Big island is poor, and there are high crime areas on the Big island, which is also where many of these people disappear from. Yeah, totally. Right. I'm looking at the data. I'm not judging. I'm looking at the numbers. So I'm looking at crime stats from the Big island police. I'm looking at where people disappear from. And here we go. We have Hilo, Kailua, Kona, and Pahoa. All right, So I think that people are stealing cars. The. They use the cars for an extended period of time, which is also common in New York City, for example, we have people who steal cars, they run drugs, they do their. They commit their crimes, and then they dump the car. And the human in the car that they've stolen from is unfortunately just collateral, and they get rid of those people. And on an island like the Big island, which is so big, it's the biggest of the islands, all of the Hawaiian islands can fit inside the Big Island. There are a lot of places to dispose of people.
- [07:12]
A
Well, and that was what I wanted to ask you is that I think one of the things that is so, so disturbing and so heartbreaking for the families of these missing persons is that there's no bodies. We're not finding bodies. Where are they?
- [07:24]
B
Yeah, and that's what. That's what really bothers me about all missing persons cases. You know, the body is so important to the family for them to grieve, to have a place to go, to honor their loved one, to know that they're safe. Many families of missing people, they know, they understand that their loved one's not coming back, that. That they're dead, but they want them back. They want a place to know that they are safe, that they can go visit them. And in cases like this, when you do the numbers. So we're looking at what, not more than 90 people over the last five years. I want you to think Ann, about the ripple effect of that pain. Right. 90 families, 90 children, cousins, aunts, uncles, friends, co workers. I mean, when you think about it, it's really a lot to consider. There are a lot of places to dispose of people on the Big Island. One of the places that is rumored, so it's kind of talked about on the Big island is lava tub. It's kind of a saying there on the Big island, from what I'm told, that you should keep your mouth shut or you're going to end up in a lava tube.
- [08:30]
A
What is a lava tube? Like, what does it look like?
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B
So it's like a deep. They're around where the volcanoes are. They're kind of like a crater, but they're, they're deep. So they go. It's a tube. So it goes from the top of the earth all the way down. In other words, if you get thrown down a lava tube, you're going to the center of the earth where the lava is. So you're not. Yeah. And so that's sort of like the, the lore on the island is that, you know, you be careful who you talk to, be careful what you do, or you'll get thrown down a lava tube.
- [09:05]
A
It is so, so the opposite of when you think of like Mahala, like, you know, all of the aloha, sort of, I know Hawaiian messages that we get and the people that I know from Hawaii, this is so far from that world that this, like, this underbelly that you've exposed, it's, it's, it's just heart wrenching.
- [09:29]
B
I took a lot of heat from this investigation on social media. A lot of locals really were very angry with this. And here's what I'll say. Nothing in this piece, of course. There are lovely parts of Hawaii and there are lovely people. We're talking here about the underbelly. And every place in this country has one. Every town, no matter how lovely you think it is, has an underbelly. I took a lot of heat and I. And that really upset me because I in no way want people to not travel to the Big island or not think that Hawaiians, they're lovely people. There is a part of the island that has high crime, hot. You know, this, this, you know what is sort of a, an interesting amount of dissing missing people. And, and that's, that's okay. But it deserves to be investigated. This is important to those families. They're missing.
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A
They're missing. Who's looking for them, Kristen?
- [10:27]
B
Their families are, but the police aren't. I'M also very suspicious, Anne, that when I read through some of these reports, they blame it on drowning, every like it. But that's easy. It's easy to say. And, and I get. I'm suspicious of. After some of these people disappear, they' seems to always be a witness who saw them by the water, down by the rocks, down by the water. I see this. You know, Ann, when you see it over and over, there is zero evidence that any of these people were by the water when they disappeared. But police and their official ruling, possible drowning.
- [11:12]
A
And so, like, out of. Can you give me like, a rough estimate out of the police reports that you were able to view on the missing persons cases, how many of them ended up, like, by the water, in the water, close to the water?
- [11:25]
B
I would say probably publicly, they've probably listed 20 to 30% of them as that. But when they gave me their official. Official, I asked them for their official. Because at first they said, well, what you're seeing on the website isn't official. I said, well, here's the thing that's official to the public. So they had to go back to their records. And when they came back, first of all, they only had about 30 people missing. And I just got like a Word document. It. It wasn't even a file. I asked for the files. I wanted the records. I want to understand what statements did you take? Where did you, you know, all these things? No, I got a Word document with the name where they disappeared from. And then it would say, like, possible drowning. You know, I've. I've asked police to come on and talk to me again about this. I think there's a lot I'd like to ask them, but they have refused to do that.
- [12:18]
A
You've been working with the police, trying to get them to kind of nail down their investigation for you. Who else have you been speaking to in an official capacity? Have you been able to reach out to the governor? You know, any elected. The FBI?
- [12:32]
B
Yeah, so the governor. I need to do that. I was hoping that I would hear from them that if they saw it. But the FBI did reach out to. So the FBI is involved in the case of Kelly Gravett, the missing Purple Heart recipient. They wouldn't. And they actually did not confirm that to me. I was able to confirm it because I saw electronic communication and was able to put that together myself. The FBI will only get involved in a local investigation if they are called in by the state. So far, the state and local officials there on the Big island have not called in the FBI. For this, for this issue. So they, they can't just go in and start investigating.
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A
So I don't think that they're, they're like federal charges that are coming, right? Like the FBI can come in if there's like some, some cross state or something. But you're on island, like you said, this is the state of Hawaii. Like, where are they going to go? Into the water.
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B
Yes, exactly. So the FBI is, is involved in Kelly Gravett's case. I don't know where it stands at this point, but I do know that they're involved in that one.
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A
Out of the cases that you were looking at, like William Bishop is one that I'm thinking about because he's just out in his yard. I mean, is he one of those people that ended up in near water?
- [13:53]
B
He did not end up near water. That was considered. When I interviewed the police on that, they said that was, that is a strange case. All they said was disappeared without wallet, without belongings. That's what it said. That poor family.
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A
I was looking at that case, Chris, and that poor family must be so concerned. It's. I mean, if you. Let's speculate for a second. Why not? Let's theorize since they're not giving you anything. I mean, I guess somebody could have walked up, been like, I'm taking your car. I'm carjacking you. You're coming with me. I have no idea why there was a bunch of blood in the. That car. That car had a ton of blood in it. But the blood was animal blood. But who verified that that was animal blood?
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B
So I read the report that it says this was. The blood was identified. It's a police report. But what I went back, because I did ask for. I want the, the actual report. I don't want the summary of the report.
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A
Right.
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B
So I'm reading. We have determined that this blood is animal blood. No, no, no. I want the forensic reports. And so I'm having the family push back against that response because that is not. And I went back and that part of my response was denied. And now we are appealing it because if they were able to put that in the summary, this is animal blood, then the actual report needs to exist somewhere. They're saying that it doesn't exist in, in the appeal. And so that's problematic. And so, yes, can you imagine. And by the way, I didn't get into this in the episode, so your, your listeners and your viewers will hear this. They found in the back of his car when they seized it from Roberta Perry. She Is has not been charged in his disappearance, but she was someone that police were questioning. Sure. And they, she says when she found the car, it had in the back of it plastic, huge plastic and lava slabs. And when police asked her what did you do with. She said, oh, I just left it by the side of the road. Now you would think police, once Roberta Perry has told them this, would say, well, can you take us to where the, I mean that's, that could be forensic evidence. You had plastic slabs in the back of the trunk. They never asked her to take them to where she disposed of those items. I mean this is basic police work. And as I put, you know, former NYPD detective who was in my piece, this is really alarming because there were so many things that needed to be investigated here that weren't.
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A
Has your work sparked new leads? Do you feel like that there's some new information that's being generated?
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B
So this is the issue with people on the Big Island. Everyone is really scared. And I know we're going to talk about this other case that just happened and you'll hear about that, how people are scared to talk. In this most recent investigation with a man who allegedly killed three men in two days on the Big island, there is, people are scared. They know that some of this has to do with crime. These people are very dangerous. They have no regard for human life. And so while I hope, I mean, police aren't communicating with me, so I won't have any, any way, I will tell you that once this came out, there is, I mean, social media was a flurry of messages between people. I routinely get emails from people. Have you seen this? Have you seen that?
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A
With 1.2 million views on these video, on this video alone, there's obviously it's generating an enormous amount of interest.
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B
Yes, it is.
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A
And would you go there and investigate, do you think?
- [17:52]
B
I'd like to. I'm, I'm trying to find a partner to help go there because I think that these, there are really serious questions about what happened to these people because I do think that there's an underbelly of crime there that has to be dealt with in the same period of time that I investigated these disappearances. Right. So the last five years, the Hawaii Police Department itself had more than at least a dozen officers accused. These are public records. Assault, drunk driving, burglary, harassment, robbery, sexual assault, criminal trespass, tampering with evidence and falsifying records. In addition to that, dozens of others were suspended. Misconduct, not activating their body worn cameras, disposing of evidence, use of excessive force. There is a problem. And, you know, they brought in a new chief. They have said publicly that they are dedicating themselves to getting more officers. They're short 75 officers. They have a recruiting problem. They've got clearly a behavioral issue there that they have to deal with. Those officers are being prosecuted by the state. And so look, I think that while people there locally may take issue with my investigation, I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, these, These tourist communities that you go to, you know, aren't free of. Aren't free of crime. There's. It's there. You, you know, you do have to be careful. I do think that some of these people were targeted particularly for their vehicles or. Because, I mean, we have a mother, Jennifer Showin was from Montana. She moved to the big island, let's see, 43 years old, moved to the Big Island, I think around 2020. In July of 2022, a mother of two boys disappears, and guess what? An. A week or two later, her red Hummer found abandoned Hummer, you know, and
- [19:56]
A
this, this is, you know, and as we move into this concern, this latest triple murder that we're dealing with, there, one thing that always, always makes me think and pause is that when you're dealing with so much public corruption, which is what you're talking about as far as within the. The Hawaiian Police department and how they're trying to deal with that, you know, when you have that level of an underbelly of crime that's going on, you have a hundred missing persons. From my experience, this stuff doesn't go without being known. So these things go hand in hand for sure.
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B
Right.
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A
So as. As more public corruption is unco. I would not be surprised if we don't see more, More information forthcoming on these missing persons.
- [20:46]
B
Yeah. As the NYPD detective, I interviewed Mark Pucci, who was in my investigation. What he finds concerning is that the same activities that we believe those victim, These victims may have gotten involved in or were the victims of are the same activities that these police officers are being accused of. Of participating in. And that's not a heartwarming correlation. Right.
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A
But it makes sense. Right, right.
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B
And. And when you talk to locals, they will tell you that the Hawaiian Police Department there on the Big island, it's a lot of family. It's, it's, you know, people, their brothers on the, you know, dads on the forest, brothers on the force. They, you know, again, it's an island, I think, you know, there. There's a Lot of culture there and connections and everybody knows everybody. Sure. And so I think the question is, have police, and I think this is a reasonable question. Have police been turning a blind eye to some of this activity for years? And, and because they know the people who are involved in it.
- [21:55]
A
Absolutely. This, you know, it's like any small community that. And when I say small, I know it's a big island, but it's, it is, it isn't a very populated right now. Let's go. I want to talk to you about this Jacob Baker, this suspect. Do you think that he could be connected in any way to your missing persons?
- [22:20]
B
So here's what I think. I. Jacob Baker was just arrested about a week ago. He went on allegedly a three, two, three day killing spree. He killed allegedly three elderly men, two men, 69 year old and 179.
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A
Right.
- [22:40]
B
Look, Jacob Baker, I do hope that they will ask him about some of these cases because I think that they, that they need to. I don't know what Jacob Baker's state of mind is. The defense attorney has requested a mental health evaluation which the judge has granted. I think that there may. That is warranted based upon what we've seen. But certainly I hope that they will talk to him about this. So Puna is not, not as high crime and associated with the missing people as Hilo, Kailua, Kona and Pahoa. But Puna is right, right there. Puna's more of a rural. It's more of a rural area. But here's what concerns me. You know, Jacob Baker seems to be, from what I've read about him, again, one of these people that was living off the land, living off the grid. Right. He'd been living at other people's, on their farms. And you know, there are a lot of. There are people that live on the Big island, like anywhere that are. Can be threats to the community, clearly, as Jacob Baker was. And so I, I don't know. Look, he had spent a lot of time in Pahoa. His movements are all in Hilo. He knows Hilo very well. And so I think that, I do hope that they talk to him about some of these cases because maybe he's in a state of mind where he's or he knows people, you know, he knows something about them and that he may be willing to talk.
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A
Does he qualify? Are they, are they calling him a serial killer just based on his activity?
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B
I think they should, right?
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A
Yeah, I think so. As far as a cooling off period, I'm not familiar. I'M not as familiar as you are with the case. Are they telling you that there was a cooling off period between these crimes?
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B
No, he. No, because he had one murder, allegedly on a Monday. Well, you know, we don't know when the murders happened. We know when they were found.
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A
That's what I thought.
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B
Right. So it's. It's kind of hard to know. We'll have to. We'll have to keep an eye on that. But I mean, I would say in terms of numbers, he is. I don't know how they differentiate between, you know, serial killer or like a killing spree. I don't.
- [25:05]
A
Sometimes a spree killer, it can be. You can have us, you can have both. I mean, I think, like, Ted Bundy was sometimes looked at as a spree killer because he would kill a bunch of people, but then he always had these cooling off periods as well. And that's. I think that's sort of one of the FBI profilers. Main things is, even if that cooling off period is not what we would consider, like, we're not talking, like, even days sometimes, it just has to be separate incidents. So it's awfully close.
- [25:34]
B
Yeah. No, no, no, Then. Then that would make sense. I know for sure that he. He definitely took a break, it appears, but he went shopping. So he went to an a. What we believe is a girlfriend's house or ex girlfriend's house and said that he needed a ride into Hilo to go shopping. Shopping. And he ended up buying metal knuckles knives. And he got a tattoo. That's how they ended up really figuring it out. He had gotten a tattoo under his left eye, a fresh one. La flaquitas, I think, is the. Is the term that they use, which can mean in Spanish, little girl or babe, but it also can mean. It's a nickname for the Santa de Muerte. So Our lady of Holy Death in Mexico. And this is a statement. This word flakitas is a word that he allegedly wrote on the walls of at least two of the men that he killed. He wrote this term. These were brutal. These were brutal. These murders are horrific. I mean, he allegedly beat these old men to death really bad. I mean, we don't need to go into it, but you get it. I mean, he, He. This is really sick. And he was. You should have seen the text messages I'm getting, you know, during this whole manhunt period. Because from all the families, they were trying to figure out, could this be him? You know, imagine those families, they're like, maybe he is involved. I Think that's a reasonable question after this. This person is out there killing all these people, and. And particularly, you know, these older men, of which William Bishop was. Was one. And so, you know, we'll see how this goes. How did this happen? How was Jacob Baker allowed to be out in the community when clearly this young man appears to have some very serious mental health issues? And so that's. That's a legitimate question. The other thing, Ann, that really bothered me about this story, I was watching a local news piece, and they showed the surveillance video of how they finally captured Jacob Baker, because they were on a wild manhunt for this guy.
- [27:50]
C
Hawaii Police Department officers received information that the possible suspect had been observed hiding within a grassy area in a field. Officers and detectives responded to the area and conducted a search, ultimately locating the suspect concealed within a small cave on the neighboring property.
- [28:10]
B
He lives in the woods. He knows exactly how to live off the land for an extended period of time. And people in the neighborhood where the third victim was found were looking at their surveillance cameras and trying to track him down. Well, a neighbor saw in his camera Jacob Baker in his backyard walking around. And the gentleman is interviewed for this news, for this piece, and his face is not on camera, but at the very end, he says, you know, this is why it's important that people speak up, because people knew he was here for several days, and they didn't call the police. And that was like. This goes back to that idea that people on that island are so scared of what will happen to them if they speak up, if they. That you. That even Jacob Baker people knew he was there. They didn't call police because they're scared. They're scared of him. They're scared of who he may be connected to. And to me, that's really alarming.
- [29:17]
A
Does he have any connection to the. The car thefts that you know of?
- [29:21]
B
I don't know. None of his. None of his alleged crimes here involve cars. So there's. There's no way to know he really had been living, it appears, you know, off the land, which a lot. You know, a lot of them do. And my worry is that these. The people who are poor, they don't have access to cars. You know how hard it is to get around the Big island without a car. It's nearly impossible. And so they need a car at some point, and they don't have one, and they need to get one. So what do they do? They steal one. And so it doesn't look like he certainly hasn't been charged in any auto theft at all. But it, you know, just another really concerning case out of the big.
- [30:08]
A
And what also concerned me was, it appears, and, and just from the surface level, obviously I've not spoken to the police, you know, the police like you have on this, but the, the fact that two women had come forward in separate incidences and said, please do something about this Jacob Baker. I have a problem with them. And they were, am I right? Were they pretty much ignored?
- [30:33]
B
Yeah. So reportedly I haven't confirmed this, but I've read that there are two women who went to police to try to get a restraining order against Jacob Baker and they were denied the restraining order. I'd certainly like to look into that more. You know, it's not uncommon that we hear that sometimes people are denied them. But clearly this guy was a, was a threat. I have a feeling that this ex girlfriend that he stumbled upon, you know, by that point he may have allegedly already killed two people. And here he is stumbling upon her doorstep. I mean, this woman was probably scared out of her mind, was he was threatening her, he was mumbling, he was speaking Spanish, which I'm not even sure he really does, but he was incoherent and was demanding that she take him shopping. Can you imagine the fear of this woman that she just did whatever he asked her to do because he is a, you know, was clearly not in the right state of mind.
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A
So next step is they're going to do a mental evaluation on Jacob Baker.
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B
Yes, that's due at the beginning of August, August 4th.
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A
And next step for you in this case, what do you want to see happen?
- [31:41]
B
I'm really looking to partner and I do have partners I work with who, you know, to go and really do more digging on these missing people there. I think they deserve it. I think it's important. I do have, I am looking into the idea of, you know, people that disappear from islands. I've heard now from other people about, you should look into this one and that one. And so, and it does make sense when you think about islands, that they would be places that people would disappear from not purely because of the water, but because of short staffed police. You know, this, that tourists, the money, the culture there. People go there to find themselves. They may be making decisions and getting involved in things that they wouldn't otherwise. I mean, it's the islands really. I had never thought about it till someone mentioned it to me. And then I thought, well, yeah, I mean that does actually make sense that it could be this perfect storm of factors that can happen. These families, they always, as you know, Ann, they really were like their hope, you know, their hope to try to find. Find their loved one. And so I would like to keep pushing on those investigations.
- [32:50]
A
They were really breaking my heart. The parents and the brothers and the sisters and the you spoke to a lot. So congratulations on the investigation so far. I know you don't want to let go of it until you're going all the way down that rabbit hole.
- [33:05]
B
Yeah. Oh, I am. Because I think, again, if there is crime happening there and people are dying or disappearing because of it, it needs to be dealt with. It's a public safety threat. Yeah.
- [33:15]
A
Thank you so much for talking to
- [33:17]
B
me about you for having me.
- [33:18]
A
We'll keep up to date with your investigation. Thank you. Drop a comment below. Do you think Jacob Baker knows more than he said about these missing people? And why do you think it's been so difficult to engage the police in looking for all of these people? I'd love to hear your thoughts. And be sure to like and subscribe and turn on your notifications for Criminally Obsessed because I don't want you to miss any of these episodes.