3 Lindsay Clancy Trial Bombshells: The Nanny, Dear Diary and Lindsay Speaks

Summary

Criminally Obsessed Podcast

Episode 3: "Lindsay Clancy Trial Bombshells: The Nanny, Dear Diary, and Lindsay Speaks"

Release Date: August 6, 2026
Host: Ann Emerson
Guest: Lauren Matthias (Host of Hidden True Crime Podcast, reporting daily from the courtroom)

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Episode Overview

This episode offers an in-depth look into a dramatic week in the Lindsay Clancy trial, a case that centers on a Massachusetts mother accused of killing her three children. With expert courtroom insights from reporter Lauren Matthias, the episode highlights pivotal moments including testimony from the family nanny, revelations from Lindsay's personal journals, and—for the first time—Lindsay speaking in court. Throughout, the podcast focuses on the shifting perceptions of Lindsay Clancy from both the jury and the public, and the struggle to understand the "why" behind these heartbreaking events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Changing Dynamics: Jurors’ Focus on Lindsay Clancy

• Jury Behavior: Lauren notes a significant shift during the trial.

  • "The jury... they watch her. They'll look at the witness and quickly turn their eyes to her, almost like they're more interested in her reaction." (00:28, Lauren Matthias)

• This week, jurors transitioned from just hearing facts to closely observing Lindsay, particularly during emotional testimony, signaling they are trying to understand her humanity and motivations.

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2. The Nanny’s Testimony: Humanizing Lindsay Clancy

• Key Witness: Elaine Rossi ("Laney"), the family’s nanny, was called by the prosecution but appeared to help the defense by describing Lindsay as a devoted, careful mother.

  • "I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, who was... very concerned with their safety." (01:03, 08:14, Elaine Rossi)

• Emotional Impact:

  • Lindsay became visibly emotional during Rossi’s testimony, especially when videos of her children were shown.
  • Jurors paid closer attention to Lindsay during these personal moments, rather than just taking notes.

• Prosecution vs. Defense: Despite being a prosecution witness, Elaine’s depiction seemed to benefit the defense by humanizing Lindsay and confirming her struggles.

• Memorable Exchange:

  • When defense attorney Kevin Reddington pressed, "Do you love Lindsay?" Elaine replied, "I loved Lindsay" (past tense), highlighting the complexity in their relationship post-tragedy. (12:49, Lauren Matthias)

• Timeline Clarification: Rossi’s testimony affirmed Lindsay’s ongoing struggle with postpartum depression, undermining any prosecution claim that her suffering was either new or calculated.

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3. Lindsay’s Journal: A Window into Her Mental State

• Journal Exhibits: Personal diary entries revealed Lindsay's overwhelming sense of isolation and anxiety.

  • Notable entry, read aloud: "I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the three kids. I feel like I'm drowning every day." (01:23, read by Kevin Reddington)

• The way the journal entries were read differed between the prosecution and the defense, shaping how the jury might interpret Lindsay's state of mind.

  • "To hear the prosecution read 'I’m drowning' almost with this idea that there’s this plotting and malice ... versus hearing Elaine explain that Lindsay’s a wonderful mother and cared about her children ..." (15:52, Lauren Matthias)

• Themes in the Journals:

  • Overwhelming burden of motherhood
  • Struggles with postpartum depression and medication
  • Desire to be a better mother and partner, not to escape her family

• Jury Reaction: During readings of personal entries, jurors shifted focus from note-taking to observing Lindsay’s reactions.

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4. The Question of Community and Support

• The podcast discusses Lindsay's limited support network. Her journals mention only her mother-in-law and the nanny as sources of help, underscoring her sense of isolation.

  • "There wasn’t a lot of community coming around... She was trying to do her best. She was trying to prepare for work. She had a newborn." (19:52, Lauren Matthias)

• Observation about modern isolation for mothers: "Is that a modern day issue that we now have... that we don’t have that sort of village that we used to have anymore?" (20:40, Ann Emerson)

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5. Lindsay Speaks: The Stipulation in Court

• Lindsay Clancy, for the first time, speaks in court to stipulate the facts related to the evidence:

  • Judge: "Do you understand that?"
  • Lindsay: "Yes, your honor." (29:06–29:09)

• Legal Significance: By stipulating to the facts and not contesting the circumstances, Lindsay’s defense avoids a lengthy technical trial, focusing proceedings on her mental state rather than the factual timeline.

• Observations: Lindsay's affect is described as "flat," but she is lucid, understanding, and accepting responsibility.

  • "She’s not contesting any of it. She’s taking full responsibility... She’s saying, I did this. This is my responsibility." (29:37, Lauren Matthias)

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6. The Defense’s Strategy: Humanization Over Forensics

• Defense attorney Kevin Reddington is seen as deeply invested in Lindsay's case, both personally and strategically.

  • "The first thing he said is, 'I love her. I love her. She’s a wonderful, wonderful person.' And this is just really difficult." (23:25, Lauren Matthias quoting Reddington)

• By agreeing to stipulate, Reddington reduces the prosecution’s chances to win on technicalities/forensics and increases focus on Lindsay’s humanity and mental health.

• Lauren notes: "When things get intimate and emotional, like the nanny…Lindsay is humanized... I think that getting to know the real Lindsay Clancy is going to be the best defense Reddington could put on." (32:58–33:15, Lauren Matthias)

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7. Jury Perceptions & The Why-Dunnit Element

• Both Ann and Lauren stress that this is not a "whodunit" but a "whydunit," and the jury is looking for an explanation, not merely guilt.

  • "This is a complete whydunit trial... in order to understand the why here... that’s why I brought up the motive." (36:46–37:59, Lauren Matthias)

• Challenge for Prosecutors: They struggle to offer motive beyond generic themes of maternal overwhelm, making it hard to prove malice or intent.

• Emotional testimonies, more than technical details, are likely to sway deliberations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On jury focus: "They're trying to either humanize her or dehumanize her. I don't think they're thinking that consciously, but... they're trying to understand her." (08:27, Lauren Matthias)

• On Lindsay's affect: "Her two expressions are either she's crying and weeping and emotional, or she's completely emotionless, like a flat affect." (21:47, Lauren Matthias)

• On the defense's strategy: "Every move he’s making in there is... strategic and purposeful... Doing it now was absolutely strategic. Cutting off all their technical witnesses." (35:48–36:23, Lauren Matthias)

• On the central question: "This is not a whodunit trial... This is a complete whydunit trial. And in order to understand the why here... motive isn't needed, but it could really be beneficial in this trial because this is a whydunit trial." (36:46–37:59, Lauren Matthias)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jury’s Focus on Lindsay: [00:28–00:39, 06:08–06:51]
• Nanny (Elaine Rossi) Testimony: [01:03–10:54]
• Journal Entries Discussed: [15:20–18:54, 21:24–22:39]
• Community & Support Network: [19:52–21:24]
• Lindsay Speaks/Stipulation: [28:56–32:21]
• Kevin Reddington’s Personal Investment: [23:25–24:15]
• Defense Strategy & Trial Dynamics: [32:58–36:28]
• "Why-Dunnit" vs. Motive Discussion: [36:46–38:10]

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Tone & Takeaways

• The podcast maintains a compassionate, investigative tone, echoing the heaviness and emotional complexity of the case.
• The episode pivots from hard facts and courtroom developments to the intimate human stories at the trial’s core, always returning to the pressing question: Who is the real Lindsay Clancy, and why did this tragedy occur?
• The hosts emphasize that understanding Lindsay's mental health, isolation, and personal struggles is crucial to understanding the trial's outcome.
• The outcome hinges not just on evidence, but on whether the jury can answer the "why"—and whether Lindsay Clancy is seen as a monster, a victim of mental collapse, or something else entirely.

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Listener Usefulness

This episode is essential listening for anyone following the Lindsay Clancy trial. It provides a real-time update, expert courtroom perspective, and, most importantly, context for the emerging emotional, legal, and cultural questions surrounding the case. Listeners come away understanding not just what happened in court, but what it might mean when the jury finally deliberates.

Transcript

[Ann Emerson]

Hey, everyone. I'm Ann Emerson, and this is Crimly Obsessed. If you've been trying to keep up with the Lindsay Clancy trial, this is the week that everything changed. Our guest, Laura Matthias, is the host of Hidden True Crime Podcast, and she has been in that Massachusetts courtroom every single day. She's got a front row seat to all of it. The jury, the judge, Lindsay, the attorneys, and everyone in the gallery. And she noticed something.

[Lauren Matthias]

The jury, they. They watch her. They'll look at the. The witness and quickly turn their eyes to her, almost like they're more interested in her reaction.

[Ann Emerson]

The jurors are looking at Lindsay, gauging her reactions. That's a big deal. Until now, the jury has been hearing about what happened this week. They started looking at the woman on trial, the Massachusetts mother. At the center of this case, Lauren, is breaking down for us the biggest three moments that you can't miss. The nanny who spent months with the Clancy family.

[Elaine Rossi]

I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, who was. She was very concerned with their safety.

[Ann Emerson]

The private journal entries that paint a picture of a mom who is overwhelmed, isolated, and terrified. You're going to hear some of those entries in her own words describing her state of mind.

[Kevin Reddington]

I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the three kids. I feel like I'm drowning every day.

[Ann Emerson]

And the very first time we hear Lindsey speak for herself, do you understand that?

[Lauren Matthias]

Yes, you, Honor.

[Judge]

Is that what you want to do at this point?

[Ann Emerson]

Yes, but get this. During a recess, our guest, Lauren, had a chance to talk to Kevin Reddington. He's Lindsay's criminal defense attorney. Lauren reveals to us in a little bit why Reddington says this case has become so personal to him. It caught me completely off guard. Be sure to, like, subscribe and turn on your notifications because we're going to be updating this story and all of the big cases that you're watching. Now. Let's get into it. Just want to say thanks so much for joining us again. Lauren Matthias of Hidden True Crime. You're reporting on the scene as we've been following what's going on. These firsthand reports coming out of the courtroom with Lindsay Clancy and this trial, which, you know, for me, it is the saddest trial I think I've ever covered. How do you feel about it?

[Lauren Matthias]

It is very, very sad because it's just looking at the defendant is sad. Listening to the witnesses is sad. Seeing the father of these children is sad. The.

[Kevin Reddington]

The.

[Lauren Matthias]

And then the victims, the three victims, innocent, is so sad. It is. It Is. It is just a very heavy trial every day in that courtroom. You can't not feel that when you're in there.

[Ann Emerson]

I bet. And you've been in there every. Pretty much every day, right? You've been there for every. Every minute of this so far?

[Lauren Matthias]

Yes. Yeah. Every day for two weeks now.

[Ann Emerson]

Lauren, where are you sitting? Where were you sitting this week, for the most part?

[Lauren Matthias]

So the media has three reserved rows. And where I typically like to sit on an aisle is. Is really. It's. Is a very ideal view for both the. The witness stand as well as the screen where they show all the exhibits and the evidence. Today, I actually sat more closer to the jury, where my view was essentially seeing the jury is one of the best views I've had. And so today was a little bit different.

[Ann Emerson]

I really wanted to hit some of the biggest moments, really, that I think we've seen of the trial, honestly. Would you say that the nanny coming on was a major moment for this trial?

[Lauren Matthias]

The nanny, Elaine, was the last witness of the week, and she was a major witness, although some are arguing whether it was a major witness for the defense or the prosecution. The prosecution called her, ended the week with her. But she really made. She really made Lindsay sound like a wonderful mother.

[Kevin Reddington]

Is this the notebook that you would kind of communicate with her back and forth about Callan and his schedule?

[Elaine Rossi]

It is.

[Kevin Reddington]

And fair to say she left you pretty detailed instructions on his care?

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes, she did.

[Kevin Reddington]

And you were aware that she was very particular about sleep and food and keeping on a schedule, right?

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes.

[Kevin Reddington]

And so that's the purpose of this notebook.

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes.

[Ann Emerson]

What was going on in that room while Elaine Rossi was giving her testimony? What were you seeing?

[Lauren Matthias]

It was very. It was a very intimate testimony. It was a very emotional testimony. Lindsay cried. And what was also important is they mentioned that her nickname is Lainey Laney is important because we'll get into these in a little bit. But she comes up in Lindsay's journal entries that were also, you know, exhibits earlier this week. The jury jurors, interestingly enough, they're really good notetakers. When all of these officials are in, They're. They're excellent note takers. When somebody more personal like Elaine walks in, sort of sharing these intimate moments within the house, within the family, with the children, they actually start paying more attention to Lindsay. And so they. They shift and they watch her and. And she was crying at some point. Parts of this nanny's testimony as she's remembering their children, and they're. They're showing a video that she took of Callan that she had texted Lindsay. Lindsay's crying. And the jury, they. They watch her. They'll look at the. The witness and quickly turn their eyes to her, almost like they're more interested in her reaction and understanding her. So it's clear that in many ways, I don't know how to explain it, like, they're trying to get to know her or understand her. I mean, I'm sure because this crime is so horrific, I think they are trying to process some things there. But they're certainly note takers, too.

[Ann Emerson]

When Elaine or Laney took the stand, what did Lindsay Clancy do? What did. What did you see? What were you watching?

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, she. She watched her. Simply held it together. I do think that Lindsay has been told to try to, you know, keep her emotions in check. But I also think, I mean, maybe she tries or maybe she's medicated. I. I don't know. You know, we have seen a lot of her crying in court because, of course, those are the clips that people cut, and they put them out there every day. But if you look at the. The trial as a whole, I. You know, she's not crying and not emotional more than she is emotional, if that makes sense.

[Ann Emerson]

That does make sense. We're just seeing little clips. Of course. You know, we're just seeing moments. We're seeing the biggest moments.

[Lauren Matthias]

As soon as she started talking about the children, you could see her. Her shoulders slump. You can see she puts her head down. She's struggling. And then the moment really came where they ask her. They ask Lainey, did Lindsay. Did you send Lindsay a video of. Of Callan taking a bottle?

[Kevin Reddington]

Was.

[Lauren Matthias]

Was Lindsay concerned that he wouldn't take a bottle? And she said, I don't remember that, but I do remember sending her a clip. And they show this little clip, you know, those clips that you would send somebody text, you know, showing just this smiling cherub cheeks. Baby. It was just beautiful baby enjoying his bottle, you know, Baby Callan. And that was when Lindsay, you know, she has this big screen in front of her that she sees all of these exhibits on her desk. And she got really emotional at that moment. And there was a time, too, where Elaine said she was a wonderful mother.

[Prosecutor]

Do you recall indicating to the troopers that in your opinion, that she was a loving and a doting mother?

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes.

[Prosecutor]

Can you tell jury what that means? I mean, what did you observe about what. What did you observe about her as a mother interacting with her kids?

[Elaine Rossi]

I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, who was. She was very Concerned with their safety. She was very concerned with Callan's eating and sleeping. She was a wonderful mother.

[Lauren Matthias]

You could tell in that moment, that really affected Lindsay, too. And I think because in that moment, she was being humanized. You know, all of the witnesses she has seen, you know, she's not seeing everything online that we're all seeing, but all of a sudden, you have all these, you know, expert witnesses and technical DNA expert witnesses, and then you get somebody that in her home and an intimate friend, and she's sort of humanizing Lindsay. And I think that's also what caught the jurors attention to look at her. Right, because they're trying to either humanize her or dehumanize her. I mean, I don't think they're thinking that consciously, but I think the way they're looking at her, they're trying to understand her. And so it was this moment where the emotions came back. Lindsay was very emotional, listening to Elaine share what a good mother she was. She said that Cora was a girly girl, that Dawson was rambunctious, that Callan was the happiest baby. And she also took us back to the journal entries because Lindsay had been afraid that she was going to have to start medication because she had postpartum depression. She shared this, we learned with Elaine, and she was afraid that Kellen wouldn't take the bottle because she would have to stop breastfeeding. And then we know from her journal entries that she was afraid that that would affect his immune system. So just kind of probably putting Lindsay in those memories. I don't know. But it was really kind of understand these inner workings of this home and her mothering.

[Ann Emerson]

As she's under direct examination, right, by the prosecution, she's telling them that she was a wonderful mom, that. That Lindsay was a wonderful mom. How is this helping the prosecution right now?

[Lauren Matthias]

From my standpoint, it did not help the prosecution at all. From my view, I felt more like a defense witness. Honestly, I think it helped the defense. I know that after hearing from Elaine, even I found myself feeling compassion for Lindsay Clancy and wondering who the real Lindsay Clancy is. I think that's what we're all wondering. And it felt there that she was a really wonderful mother. And then what's even more interesting is those last witnesses on the stand are what stick with the jurors. And they. They ended. The state ended on her today. I certainly think that she would likely help the defense more than the prosecution. But, yes, it was. It was a state's witness.

[Ann Emerson]

It sounds like she was Open with Elaine about her struggles with postpartum. How is the jury reacting to that again?

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, they're very good note takers, these jurors. I'm impressed. You know, they take as many notes as I do, and I'm in there reporting every, you know, moment of the day, each night. But the way they reacted to Elaine, they were reacting to Lindsay. They were. And I think, like I said, they want to know who the real Lindsay Clancy is. They want to know who Lindsay is. And so to hear her say it was also a confirmation. Yes, she came to me. She said that she had postpartum. That's what she called it. She didn't say postpartum depression. She said. She told me she had postpartum. Her words, and that she was worried about stopping breastfeeding. She was worried about the children's eating, that there was a moment where Dawson lost his temper, and the way she handled it was the way a good mother would, you know, and put him in another room and help him be calm. She cared about their sleep schedules. She says she was a wonderful mother. And they're. So the notes sort of slow down, and they just start looking at the defendant. You know, it was. It's a definite shift. Um, and. Yeah, and. And I'll say all. All the dots connect in this moment, too. She is not doing well. She has postpartum. She's planning to go back to work, and then we learned that she ends up not going back to work. I mean, yeah, I would say it was a win for the defense more than the state.

[Ann Emerson]

Reddington even had Rossi repeat that. That she loved Lindsay on cross. I mean, did that. That read as a defense win as well? I mean, did it feel like Reddington, the defense attorney, was sort of reaching when he said that?

[Lauren Matthias]

That was actually an interesting answer. I thought he. He was certainly. Reddington was certainly trying to get Elaine to say that she loves Lindsay. She loves Lindsay. But Elaine actually switched the wording. He was. He kept saying, do you love Lindsay? And she finally said, I loved Lindsay in past tense. Not. Not. No current love there. She made clear with her. Her wording. But, yes, she said she loved her. She said that they exchanged a Christmas text, in other words, after they didn't have work for her. And they said, we. We won't need you anymore. That was Thanksgiving. That she still sent her a Merry Christmas text. And Lindsay responded that. That there was still warmth and friendship and love there. And, yes, she loved Lindsay, but not love. It was very interesting.

[Kevin Reddington]

She.

[Lauren Matthias]

She definitely added that past Tense to it.

[Ann Emerson]

Rossi worked with the family from September through early December 2022, right before the killings in January. Did her account of that window match or complicate the timeline prosecutors have been building? Did you feel like it. That was good for the prosecution, or it. It just kind of. It didn't really help the prosecute.

[Lauren Matthias]

I don't think it really helped the prosecution, certainly trying to build this idea that Lindsay was suffering for. For longer and that she was maybe planning. I mean, this is what I've been gathering for a longer time, you know, that rather than it being sort of a sudden spiraling.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah.

[Lauren Matthias]

But I don't think it really help their timeline. I think everybody knows that she had been suffering with postpartum depression, that she had been suffering with mental health for a while. It felt actually like it was sort of building up. We also learned that she was indeed planning to go back to work. And then we learned that it wasn't until Thanksgiving that she decided, no, she was going to stay home. And then we. We can compare that to the journal entries we learned about earlier this week. And those journal entries state that she was believing that work would help her feel like herself again. Right. So to me, it sounds like a woman in sort of an emotional and mental collapse.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah. And just in just complete confusion of what's happening to her as well. Just trying to understand it as well. It sounds like she was just. Her head was just swiveling around trying to figure out what was going with her. And. And that takes me to the journal entries, really. I mean, you've heard from both sides reading Lindsay Clancy's journal now. And does it. Does a drowning everyday entry play differently depending on who's reading it into the record? The prosecution versus the defense?

[Lauren Matthias]

Yes, it. Absolutely right. It shows you how. I mean, think about a text you send and how someone could read it and somebody else could read it. And it means two completely different things with two completely different tones. And so to. Yeah. Hear the prosecution read I'm drowning almost with this idea that there's this plotting and malice and she wants to be done with motherhood.

[Ann Emerson]

Right, right.

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, versus hearing Elaine explain that Lindsay's a wonderful mother and cared about her children and that she was suffering with postpartum depression and trying new medications. Yeah. Two very different contexts.

[Ann Emerson]

You know, she was trying desperately to keep a hold of, like, the medications that she was on and her feelings at the time. And as. As you look at these journal entries, you just really get the sense of a woman who is overwhelmed, anxious, depressed, and remember, we're still on the Commonwealth. Like, we're still dealing with the prosecution and the state there are they. They're. They're building up the case for a woman who's been under an enormous amount of pressure and is not doing well.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah, you just nailed it. That's exactly how I feel. I mean, they are painting a picture of a woman suffering who's mentally unwell, who's not doing well, who's trying to get help, too.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

Who's trying to feel better. The affirmations in her journal were really interesting. You know, I'm going to sleep tonight. It is okay. I'm going to remain calm. I want to connect with Pat. You know, that's another thing, too. They shared this. This entry where she said that Pat. Pat, meaning Patrick Clancy, her husband, deserved more, and she wanted to connect. So this idea that she wants to run away from this life, you know, and that doesn't really work either. You know, hearing these journal entries, she wants her family to be well, she wants to be there for her family. She wants to help her family. She's not saying, I need to get away from my family. I don't want them anymore. The drowning is everybody. She does say everybody needs me. I feel like everybody wants me. I don't know. I've. I have felt that way before. And so as a female hearing that, I. I actually, then I. I feel empathy. I'm like, oh, I know that feeling. And I don't know about you, Anne, but I'm like, I know. And everybody wants something from me, and I can't. I want to be everything to everyone, and I can't be. And I can't get a break. And I don't, you know, when people are like, get self care. I'm like, good one, good one. Like, don't. Don't add more, you know, stress to my to do list. And so I, you know, and there are a lot of female jurors on, you know, more than men. And so not that men might not feel that too, but I just wonder if. If mothers might even connect to some of her journal entries, you know.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, absolutely. I mean, the bandwidth that she had and what I read in it as a. As a mom and a. And a working mom all these years is that, you know, you don't do anything. Well, you get to that place where everything fails and, you know, you're. You're failing yourself, you're failing your kids, you're failing your, you know, your marriage, your work, because you're trying to do everything at the same time and nothing's happening. And you, that's when you realize, okay, wait a minute. I have to put one foot in front of the other. I can't just keep. So as I hear this, and I know that she's going through these postpartum, this depression, I mean, trying to lift herself out. Where is the community? Where is the. I mean, I know there was this nanny that cared deeply, but anywhere in these journal entries, are you seeing that she's reaching out to other people to get help? I mean, I think there was a point that the mother in law was mentioned, but I don't feel like that that was. She had this community under her.

[Lauren Matthias]

The two people she really mentions, at least in the exhibits they shared, were sue, her mother in law, Pat's mother, Patrick Clancy's mother, and then Laney, who we now know as Elaine, the nanny. And so I think that she probably was drowning. She probably was busy. Yeah. She wasn't going out with friends. This is not a happy time for her. She was, she was trying to do her best. She was trying to prepare for work. She had a newborn. Yeah. There wasn't a lot of community coming around with, you know, casseroles or.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right.

[Ann Emerson]

Like, there was no neighbor knocking on the door saying, hey, why don't you go take a shower and I'll take, take the baby for an hour, like, and, and we don't know if that's happening or not, but that's, that's what's going through my mind is like, where are the people that are trying to support her during this?

[Lauren Matthias]

Right, right. And we know that her parents came into town and definitely helped. But you know, I did, I, I have seen the house and the neighborhood, and the houses are a little bit further apart from one another and tucked away more than you might realize. And then I think that they were busy. Right. Taking these children to, to their preschools, but. Right. Where was the community? I don't know. And is that, is that a modern day issue that we now have? You know, that we don't have that sort of village that we used to have anymore. But yeah, essentially mentions Laney there, the woman they hired as a nanny. And then she also mentions her mother in law that she's so grateful for, as well as, as we know her parents have also. Were, were there for her as much as they needed her to be.

[Ann Emerson]

When the journal entries were getting read, were they taking notes or were they watching? Lindsay, what, what were you witnessing when

[Lauren Matthias]

things become personal and intimate that the jurors they look over her, and that was a looking. That was a looking at Lindsay moment. Those exhibits with the. With the journals.

[Ann Emerson]

And when. When they look at her, what is she looking like as those journal entries were read?

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, Lindsay has really two expressions, and her two expressions are either she's crying and weeping and emotional, or she's completely emotionless, like a flat affect. There's no smile. There's no light in her eyes. There's no. Yeah. You know, even in my hardest times, um, I mean, maybe. I don't know, sometimes just to get through something in a really difficult time, I'll still crack some dark humor. I'll still find something to smile about. I'm not seeing any of that on Lindsay at all. There's nothing happy about this. You know, her. Her attorney seems to really care about her. Reddington sits with her, has held her hand, and she has clasped it, you know, tightly, and.

[Elaine Rossi]

But there.

[Lauren Matthias]

There's never even between those two. And you can tell they have this nice relationship. Right. So maybe there would be a smile between the two of them or something. Never. Never. It's just completely flat affect or tears. And you know what? The same with her parents in court.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah.

[Lauren Matthias]

There's. There's no. There's no even slight smile between one another.

[Ann Emerson]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

To comfort one another. I'm not talking about something being happy in court. There's nothing happy about being in there. But maybe that they would look at each other and. And have a moment of just, like, comfort from one another. There. There isn't that. It's just complete sadness or emotionless. Did you know I spoke to Kevin Reddington this week?

[Elaine Rossi]

I spoke.

[Ann Emerson]

No, tell me. What. Tell me. Tell me about this. No, I didn't.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah, I spoke to him, and I asked him. I said, you know, I. I explained, you know, I'm covering this for my podcast. What. What do you want me to tell people about your. About Lindsay Clancy? The first thing he said is, I love her. I love her. She's a wonderful, wonderful person. And this is just really difficult. That's what he said. That's what he wanted me to relay, and I believe him. You can see in there that he truly cares about her. So he's.

[Ann Emerson]

In other words, he wants us to seal the. See the same Lindsay Clancy he sees, which is the person that he loves. Does a jury show any emotion when. When. During these moments? Are there any jurors that are more, you know, emotionally charged than others in there?

[Lauren Matthias]

Yes, I would say I've sat through numerous. In person Numerous criminal trials. Now, I think this is actually my 10th in person one. And I would say that this jury in particular is. Is the most stoic, actually. They show the least amount of emotions on their face. Not. I'm not. I don't know what they're feeling inside. Except for when that 911 call, which was last week that we. We talked about, you and I, when that 911 call was played, many jurors were in tears. And then other than that, they have certainly have shown looks of confusion or concern or question on their face. They're not outwardly, like, crying either, or. Or weeping either. Except for. Again, that just one day. They are. They're a very stoic set of jurors.

[Ann Emerson]

That is concerning for the defense, I'm sure, because they're trying to stay balanced right now as far as what they're hearing. And as. As a defense attorney, I could see why he was pushing for things like, you love. You love Lindsay, like talking about the nanny, that sort of thing. But when we heard. Just to go through it for our viewers, the journal entries, we heard her talk about how terrified she was about her. Her baby, about how she was trying to stay strong, how she was overwhelmed, the anxiety, the not being able to breastfeed, the disconnection to Patrick Clancy, her husband, and the children. She talked about how her mind was never shutting off, how she couldn't shut things off. And, you know, as these journal entries are read, has the judge or the attorney signaled that how much weight these jurors need to put on the diary entries versus what they're going to be hearing on the clinical or the expert testimony? That's still to come. Like the battle of the experts that we've been hearing about.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah.

[Judge]

No.

[Lauren Matthias]

I don't know if they're, like, really emphasizing how much weight to put on everything, but you're right. I think it is a jury that's going to make the defense. Reddington, nervous. I think you nailed it. You know, I try to sit in there every day, you know, looking at the evidence myself, because even I. I want to know and understand. Right. And I think the thing that the prosecution hasn't done great yet is.

[Kevin Reddington]

And.

[Lauren Matthias]

And I know you don't need a motive to convict. I know that they're. They're. They just have to try to prove intent. Right. Malice, motive, doesn't matter. But when there is this mental illness component, it's very clear.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

Even the prosecution's making it very clear. I think that a question many of the jurors are going to have is why. Why kill your three children for. You know, if. If the intent is malice, I think a motive would help. A really good motive would help the state, if that's what they're trying to prove, his intent. And I think they're struggling there because there's no. That we can see cheating husband. There's no divorce on the line. There's no. There's no financial gain. They're trying to sort of paint that she was drowning, that motherhood was harder than she thought. And I think that's something that maybe many women or parents in general, can relate to. So I think that one thing that I'm curious about as the prosecution continues going is are they going to be able to give the jurors maybe a better motive to hang on to? Because they're also. They're spending so much time trying to say that these cuts are superficial. Right. That's a big part of this week's testimony, too, that. That maybe they're implying she wasn't really trying to kill herself. But that doesn't really go motive wise for me either. Then why horrifically kill your three children if you want to live and keep your marriage intact? You know, I just. I feel like, again, I realize motive is not necessary, but I think it would really help the prosecution, and they're missing this component, and I think I'm. I'm very curious to see if they can kind of give the jurors a motive to kind of hang on to.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, and. And that takes me to another major moment in this. We actually hear Lindsay Clancy say something.

[Judge]

Do you understand that?

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes, you, Honor.

[Judge]

Is that what you want to do at this point?

[Elaine Rossi]

Yes.

[Judge]

All right. Have you gone over this stipulation or the summary of the stipulations with attorney Reddington?

[Kevin Reddington]

Yes, I have.

[Judge]

All right. Need any more time to do that?

[Lauren Matthias]

No, thank you.

[Ann Emerson]

It wasn't a lot. We heard her say three words. Basically, yes, your honor. And that's when we were talking about. She's. She's. She's handing it to him, saying, I'm not gonna. I'm not contesting the facts in here. I'm not saying that The. The chain of custody and all of the evidence that led up to what it. What it looked like, three children died. She's not contesting that, is she?

[Lauren Matthias]

She's not contesting any of it. She's taking full responsibility. There. There's no part of Lindsay Clancy that's trying to say, I didn't do this or I didn't do that it was the other dude, it wasn't me. There was somebody else there. She's, she's saying, I did this. This is my responsibility. Almost to the point where it feels like the prosecution's almost mad about it, you know, that, that she's taking responsibility. But yeah, that moment was really surprising because we weren't expecting that when we walked into court that the first thing we would have before the jurors even came in with Lindsay Clancy saying, yes, I understand what I'm doing. It almost felt like a plea when you, you hear someone taking a, you know, a guilty plea. It was, it was like that. But they were simply stipulating or agreeing to the evidence and to the fact that, yes, she did this. The chain of custody, yes, I killed my kids. As you pointed out, you know, the state's resisting to this, oddly, until you're like, what is happening here?

[Ann Emerson]

What did she look like when she said, yes, your honor? What was her demeanor?

[Lauren Matthias]

Flat affect, but very clear. It wasn't. You know, we hear about, we hear about psychosis, we hear about intrusive thoughts, we hear about delusions. You know, we've learned a lot about that. I think a lot of us are trying to understand what, what is what there. But when it comes to Lindsay in court, again, very emotionless, but you can tell that she's with it, that she knows what she's saying. She's not staring past you or, you know, has wide pupils. She doesn't have that Andrea Yates look, you know, the Andrea Yates look.

[Ann Emerson]

Yes. And that was like a whole different level of like.

[Lauren Matthias]

Right, right, exactly.

[Kevin Reddington]

So.

[Lauren Matthias]

So it's not to that level. You're like, she's there, she understands, she's stipulating, she's with it. You know, she's with it. She emotionless, but there, she's lucid to

[Ann Emerson]

some, to some degree. They got her lucid. Well, and I think it was a huge mistake with Andrea Yates, obviously, like that complete. Like, it came across as a lack of, a lack of regard, like a total disregard for what had happened and what she did and think, I think rightly so. They made sure that Lindsay Clancy was feeling something or being able to express something in this so that she wasn't over medicated to that point.

[Lauren Matthias]

Correct, Right. Like you can tell, I'm sure they've checked to make sure she's competent to stand trial. She seems competent to stand trial, Right? She seems that she does. When she says, yes, your honor, and stipulates to the chain of custody and to the facts of this case, you can tell she understands what she's doing.

[Ann Emerson]

You know, when the defense comes out and does the stipulation of the facts and agrees to, you know, agrees to. To not contest some of these things. So the DNA, the chain of custody, all of these. Of all of this evidence has changed. Sort of the emotional rhythm of the trial. I mean, it's going to fast track stuff. Now, we are skipping through all kinds of forensic witnesses, you know, that the jurors might have had to sit through. How do you think that's going to affect the rhythm of this trial now?

[Lauren Matthias]

I think it's. I think it's going to help the defense. So, I mean, here's the deal. This. This is. This is what I'm noticing in there. As someone sitting in there. When things get intimate and emotional, like the nanny, like nanny Elaine today, or those journal entries, Lindsay is humanized.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right?

[Lauren Matthias]

That's. I mean, that's. That's what happens. And if the defense is going to have a great defense, they're probably going to have fewer expert witnesses, fewer technical witnesses. I. I think some really expert mental health witnesses are going to be great for both. Both the defense and the prosecution. But beyond that, you know, I think that getting to know the real Lindsay Clancy is going to be the best defense Reddington could put on. And the prosecution maybe needs some really great expert witnesses to make their point about her mental health. Saying that she knew what she was doing. Maybe that could help. But bringing in more personal relationships like the nanny isn't going to necessarily help the prosecution. And having fewer technical witnesses isn't going to help the prosecution, which is probably why they weren't too happy about the stipulating.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

Because it's. It's going to give the defense maybe a little bit more opportunity to really, again, paint a real complex live human being rather than just this monster that killed her three children. And look, I don't. I don't know who the real Lindsay Clancy is. I'm in there listening, along with the jurors and along with those that are in the trial. So I'm trying to put myself there. But in seeing how I've been swayed and affected so far, I think that's what that could benefit both sides.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, and Lauren, I love the way you put it like that, too, is who is the real Lindsay Clancy? Because I think you're coming to the real heart of the matter here. I do have to say, my theory on the defense doing this. I mean, I have no idea. I'm not sitting in there With Reddington. But I tell you what, by. By waiting until now to do that. He's basically. The prosecution had to do all that homework. They've had to do all of that incredible amount of work to line up those expert witnesses for the chain of custody, for the forensics, all that stuff that has all just gotten wiped away. And that was no small feat.

[Kevin Reddington]

It.

[Ann Emerson]

For them, I imagine for the prosecution, this was. This rattled them because it was like, where are we now in the trial? Like, we've got to kind of rethink it. And, I mean, I wonder, could the defense was this purposeful to do it right now, so it would rattle them? I would love to know.

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, absolutely. I absolutely think it was purposeful. I don't think that there's anything that Kevin Reddington does that isn't strategic and purposeful.

[Kevin Reddington]

I think.

[Lauren Matthias]

I think he truly does care about Lindsay and that he truly does have his emotions in this case. But every move he's making in there is he wants to echic. He has been working on this case. He met Lindsay years ago. He knows what he's doing in there. And doing it now was absolutely strategic. Cutting off all their technical witnesses, or a lot of them, not all of them.

[Kevin Reddington]

Excuse me.

[Lauren Matthias]

But yeah, it was. It was strategic, absolutely.

[Ann Emerson]

And, you know, and as we sort of wrap up now, I wanted to ask you, I mean, out of. Out of everything that you heard this past week and maybe even so far, what is it that you think that the jurors are going to be taking back into that deliberation room?

[Lauren Matthias]

You know, it was interesting where I saw them taking a lot of notes, and it was. I think they were really trying to process whether or not Lindsay's wounds were life threatening, whether she was really trying to end her life, or as the prosecution puts it, you know, just hardly cutting herself and sort of hanging and dangling out the window and dropping to the ground. For some reason, I saw. I. I feel like the jurors were really trying to decide what they thought with that. But the other thing, and I know I keep coming back to it, and it was the last witness I just heard before I jumped on with you. But these emotional witnesses that help them get to know Lindsay, that's what they're going to take back to the deliberation room. I think that that ultimate question is, again, this isn't. This is not a whodunit trial. A lot of trials are who done it trial. This is not that. This is a complete whydunit trial. And in order to understand the why here? That's why I brought up the motive. I realize the motive isn't needed, but it could really be beneficial in this trial because this is a why donut trial.

[Kevin Reddington]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

And they want to get to know Lindsay on a personal level to understand why. And that's going to be the stuff they take back to the deliberation room.

[Ann Emerson]

I wonder if Lindsay's also trying to figure out who she is. I mean, as. As she listens to this, does she even recognize the person who did that? Does she even know who that person was? I can't even imagine what it's like for her to be replaying these moments. It is incredible. And postpartum psychosis has taken a new national spotlight.

[Lauren Matthias]

It has. It absolutely has. And I think it's on the forefront of this trial and this case. And there is also, you know, again, we don't know what the verdict's going to be. I don't know what Lindsey Clancy experienced the day she did the unthinkable. But many women have come forward with their stories, and many are voicing what they experienced. And I'm grateful for the conversation.

[Ann Emerson]

Thank you so much, Lauren. I appreciate it. Thank you for talking to me again. I'm so glad you've been in there and. And your reporting is just fantastic. So thanks so much. I appreciate it. Drop a comment below. I want to hear what you're thinking about this case and where we're at in the trial right now. I've been reading your comments. They are incredibly thoughtful. I appreciate it. And I'm going to try and answer as many as I can. Be sure to, like, subscribe and turn on your notifications because we will be updating this story as well as all of the big cases that you're watching.

[Lauren Matthias]

Sam.