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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. I'm Ann Emerson, and this is Criminally Obsessed. When you hear about a serial killer, you probably picture somebody like Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, or maybe Rex Heuerman. All men. But could you name one female serial killer? There might be one right now in North Carolina. Her name is Gudrun Leinenkugel. I'll explain the bizarre meaning behind her strange name in a minute, but what you need to know is that she's been charged with two murders, two attempted murders, and may be responsible for the death of another man. The weapon, Wine. Be sure to, like, subscribe and turn on your notifications to Criminally Obsessed because I don't want you to miss any updates to this story. Linda Casper changed her name to Gudrun about 20 years ago, around the time police believe that she killed her first victim, her friend Michael Schmidt. Then they say she turned on her family at Thanksgiving dinner last year. She allegedly served poisoned wine to her daughters, Leila and Mia. And Mia's boyfriend Mia got really sick. Her boyfriend was hospitalized, and Leila died. But here's the twist. Mia is defending her mother's innocence.
- [01:14]
B
We just want our mom out. I don't think it's right that she's in there. There's a lot of factors in it that just doesn't make sense. And they've put a lot of stuff out there that's just twisted words and not what's actually been said.
- [01:31]
A
Investigators say they discovered that the wine Gudrun served that day contained a heavy dose of acetonitrile. That's a chemical that metabolizes into cyanide when it's ingested. This prompted authorities to charge Gudrun in the 2007 death of Michael Schmidt and open an investigation into the 2017 death of her then husband, Elroy Lund. Leinenkugel has pleaded not guilty to all of the charges. But I had to speak to forensic psychologist Joni Johnston about the five warning signs that suggest Goodwin fits the profile of a female serial killer.
- [02:09]
C
She would definitely, if she's convicted, be a female serial killer according to our current definition.
- [02:15]
A
Now, let's get into it. Let's start off with the facts. What we know is that she has been accused of murdering her own daughter and attempting to murder two other people at a Thanksgiving dinner that she was holding right off the bat. What do you take from that?
- [02:42]
C
When we look at. At women who are potentially serial killers, And I think that we could say that depending upon the facts and depending upon what happens at trial, she could certainly fall into that category. That's something that we do, we do see is not necessarily, you know, murdering your own daughter, but murdering family members and people close to you. It's very common with female serial killers.
- [03:04]
A
Is it really? I didn't know that it is.
- [03:07]
C
I mean, it's interesting because I know you probably remember when Aileen Warn us came out, you know, when she became a huge person in the media and was ended up being executed. And she was often called the first female serial killer. And that was because of the fact that she was, you know, one of the few female serial killers who looks like a man in terms of the way that she kills. She'd pick up strangers, she would shoot them. So she was targeting, she was doing it in a way that we typically think of men murdering as serial killers. You know, women, you know, we talk about women being underestimated. Well, that's for, for good and for bad. So women have been serial killers throughout time, just like men have. They just tend to do it differently. They tend to, as opposed to hunting their prey, they tend to gather them to them, they tend to use less violent or at least overtly violent. I don't want to say less violent because overtly. What's worse than being slowly poisoned to death over month, you know, over months, for example, when you suffer. But in terms of somebody being bludgeoned or strangled or those kinds of things, obviously we don't see women do that as much. So they tend to do it in much quieter ways. They tend to be sneakier. And how they do it, they tend to have, are much more likely to have money or greed as a motivator as opposed to sex. Like we tend to see many sexually motivated male serial killers. So, you know, in some respects, she certainly, if some of the allegations are true, she certainly would share some potential characteristics of other women that we've seen serially kill people that were close to them for some kind of property or money or some kind of secondary gain that was money related.
- [04:41]
A
For our viewers, let's give them a nice basis to work on as they are going to be unpacking this case with us probably for a while. If we're looking at her as a potential serial killer, tell me, what is the, does she meet the criteria for a female serial killer?
- [04:58]
C
So I think one of the most surprising things oftentimes for people to kind of wrap their head around is it's such a simple definition. I mean, a serial killer according to the FBI since 2005, is that it's essentially killing at least two people on different occasions. So that's it. So if you do. So, if she is convicted of killing Michael Schmidt and her daughter, then she is a female serial killer. You know, we oftentimes think it's got to do with motive or it's got to. You know, at one point, you had to had three or more victims. Now it's two, because. Why is that? Well, because the FI realized two things. Number one, they wanted to be involved in more cases and be able to access help to agencies, and so they would be involved in these kind of cases. But even more significantly, most people who murder don't murder again. So if you kill more than once, you are in a class of your own to some extent. They're like, why are we saying you have to have three? You know, isn't two enough? So that's just. That is the definition. It doesn't have to be sex as a motive. It doesn't have to be strangers. It does, you know, so she would definitely, if she's convicted, be a female serial killer according to our current definition.
- [06:08]
A
So it's a completely different profile, really. I mean, the serial killer that we think of, like, we've just gone down the dark, dark road of Rex Heuerman and the Gilgo Beach Killer. He was killing people that he was having sex with and then torturing them and dismembering them. It feels like in this particular case, with this alleged serial killing that. That we're looking at, it's. It's much more removed, too. Poison is a very removed source of. Of a murder weapon, right?
- [06:42]
C
It is. I mean, there's several reasons, I think people who use poison as a weapon. Advantages that they see. At least one is this kind of what I call the medical fog. Right? They can somehow disguise this as either accidental death or a natural causes. So that's one advantage, potentially. When you see somebody selecting poison, obviously, it doesn't require a lot of physical strength or stamina to poison somebody. Women have traditionally had more access. They're, you know, the caregivers, the nurturers. And they also can distance themselves from. As you just pointed out, they distance themselves. So, you know, I know in this particular case, some of the allegations are that she's giving them a substance that actually metabolizes into potassium cyanide. So it's not even that they're, you know, they're drinking it. She's not doing anything. They're the ones drinking the wine. Right. That has the poison in it, but there's a delayed reaction to it. So the Person's maybe fine or feeling a little bit nauseated at the time, and then they go home or they go away and they. They die. And that's distancing them. Of course, the person who. The perpetrator or alleged perpetrator from the actual crime scene, they're not witnessing there. They're not there. So how could I do it? I wasn't even there when this person got sick and died.
- [07:55]
A
What we were also seeing was, yes, the daughter died, but then you've got the other daughter. That was the attempted murder and the. And the attempted murder of the boyfriend as well. So. So she was allegedly looking to wipe out the whole family, certainly her children,
- [08:11]
C
at least the two adult daughters that she had. I think she has two other children that were obviously not harmed in the situation. But yes, I mean, there. This appears to be based on what has been made public, a very targeted attack. I mean, there were several people at this Thanksgiving dinner who weren't drinking this wine, who were served other things. You know, she herself, of course, said she was allergic to grapes. So there were reasons why only her two daughters and her daughter's boyfriend were drinking this particular wine. That was the only thing that was. Was allegedly poisoned because it is that
- [08:43]
A
acetonitral is really, really toxic. Right? Like, you can. Is. Is it like, almost vaporous? Like, it's so bad? It could almost be. It's not hard to die from acetonitrile, put it that way.
- [08:55]
C
No, it's definitely not. I mean, you were saying it's what, a 2 out of 10 and 3. Was it 3 or 500? Was the amount that Michael Schmidt had in his system? Yeah, I mean, it's very toxic. And, you know, potassium cyanide, people typically die within a few minutes from that. Now, I think the kind that that was being ingested here was something that was slower acting, had to metabolize. But, you know, she was not trying to scare anybody. Clearly she was trying to kill.
- [09:23]
A
Does a standard toxicology report test for this poison, in particular aceton nitrile?
- [09:30]
C
You know, I'm not a toxicologist, so I can't answer that too closely. I would be surprised if that was the kind of thing that was tested. I mean, typically, like, no cyanide. Sometimes they can look at somebody and if there's, for example, a purpling color, which looks like oxygen deprivation, they might think, okay, let's look for something that would interfere with oxygen saturation in a person's body. So they obviously found it here. But there have been so many cases where somebody's used eye drops, for example. And then unless they're specifically looking for that. So I was surprised that they found that. Unless there was some reason for them to be looking for it.
- [10:09]
A
Looking for the poison. Well, she didn't hide it. She had it up on her, on her, in her pantry shelf. From what I understand, they found the poison there.
- [10:18]
C
Well, on the one hand it is mind boggling. We kind of go, okay, if you're going to poison, which we can't even get our head around, your own child and you're wanting to get away with it, why would you have the poison still on your shelf? And then you look at some of the allegations of her historically. I mean, this, this man that she's now been charged with back in, I think it was what, 2007? That's right. I mean, I mean this is a man who had apparently, you know, she taken out life insurance on him five days before he had the level of acetonitrile in his system was like 300 and over. Two is toxic. I mean, there were just so many suspicious circumstances. And it seems like in some respects her M.O. is almost to be helpful, you know, in other words, it must be an accident. Yeah, this is probably what happened. So things that she almost, almost like things that she thinks they might find or discover, she's going to be the one to say it. So, so then it's like, well, why would I be telling you all this stuff if I did it right? Maybe the kids were playing and got into it or I don't know how this could have happened. Which is very different from what we typically see, which is an attempt to hide and get red and destroy the evidence. But I think she, that is kind of her M.O. and the fact that she has gotten away with things that looking back, I mean, it's kind of hard to imagine that that wasn't investigated, that 2007 death wasn't investigated more thoroughly just given how suspicious the circumstances were. And then she then inherits the property immediately. So maybe she felt like too. You know, we do see male serial killers and again, I'm not saying that she is because she hasn't been convicted of anything, but we do see male serial killers oftentimes who will operate and then get caught because they don't get their car registered. I mean, just things that you would think, why would you become careless? Because they've gotten away with so many things in the past. They almost feel like I'm immune to this, I can do anything and get away with it.
- [12:04]
A
The Lund family up in North Dakota. Have you heard about this possible connection? Okay, so the daughters were very concerned that something had happened to their father who had been involved with Gudrun slash Linda, you know, and, and had been involved with this woman, and he died unexpectedly. They were very suspicious.
- [12:27]
C
My. Yeah. My understanding is that he passed away literally two months after he married Gudrun slash Linda and that the daughters were very suspicious. He was cremated. Before he was cremated, the daughters asked for a blood test because they were very suspicious. They thought he might have been poisoned and that the blood test, or the blood was lost before they could run the test. Now, there may be. What I've heard is that. Or what I've read is there may be some hair and some saliva. There may be some other bodily materials that may be tested. I don't know how that works at all in terms of can they still find this poison in this, in the, in these kinds of substances? I don't know. But I do know that the daughters were very suspicious, at least from what we hear, and that. That they had asked for a blood test to be done because they thought he would have been poisoned.
- [13:16]
A
It's just, you know, for, for this trail of mysterious deaths. I know that, you know, they're looking at this. The detectives are trying to. To unpack this right now. But going back to serial killers, you know, and you're telling me that. That targeting their own family for whatever reason is, is. Is perfectly acceptable as a, As a thesis for, For a situation like this,
- [13:50]
C
it is by far the most common target for female serial killers to target people close to you. And I think part of that reasoning is because you have access to them and also because since money is. Or greed is the primary motivator, that's how you're going to have access to that. I mean, probably the thing that you think about most, again, is like, that black widow, right? The woman who marries a husband and then she kills him and then she remarries it. You know, that's kind of a classic example of somebody that we would think is a female soul killer.
- [14:18]
A
It's incredible, you know, because it's just we've been looking at this sort of monster in the dark, lurking around, snatching women, you know, and I'm. I'm thinking I've got the Gilgo beach killer in my head right now. But, you know, you. You have this very specific sort of. I mean, he was even described as ogre. Like, you know, so you have like this whole stereotype of what a serial killer on the streets looks like. And then the female serial killer side of that just throws that just straight out the window. And all of a sudden, you're. You're looking. You're looking in your own house.
- [14:52]
C
That is absolutely true. And it's. You know, it's interesting because. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting because that's something that, you know, we know, for example, that female serial killers are active longer than men. And I think, again, it's because of that, you know, flying under the radar. You know, nobody's noticing what's going on. So I think that does make sense in terms of when you're talking about Rex Hurman, you know, versus this potential female killer. They're just as deadly and female. So killers tend to, again, last longer in terms of their active killing spree because they are so much better, but they're just ones that we don't think about when we think about serial killers. And so much of the time, I can't tell you the number of times just like this where you have one death that you find out about, and then you realize there's two or three or four that have happened before this.
- [15:46]
A
The name Gudrun. This is an old Norse name that meaning battle in secret. In Norse mythology, Gudrun is a figure defined by betrayal, calculated vengeance, orchestrating elaborate retribution against those who wrong her. Killing her own children in the process. Yeah, I mean, she's called herself. She. She manifested herself, allegedly.
- [16:16]
C
Yeah. I mean, you don't need a psychologist to analyze that, do you? I mean, it's like, literally, like she went through. Was like, okay, this is the name that fits me, right? This is who I am. And she really does kind of adopt. I mean, so many people have said, since this case became more public, you know, why would she pick this particular name? It's so much harder to say and harder to spell and, you know, might change it in the other way to make things easier. But she chose. And I think there was something very symbolic for her and meaningful about the name that she chose, and it obviously had meaning for her. And it's. It's terrifying to think that this was actually who she identified with and then maybe proceeded to carry out some of the things that her name meant.
- [16:57]
A
Well, let's look to it. You know, I've spoken with the biological father, Travis Peterson. Travis is the biological father of Leela who. Who d. Tragically, at this Thanksgiving dinner, I said, did you have any inkling what you had been, you know, married to and, you know, any inkling to who Linda Slash Gudrun really was. Are we looking at a female serial killer? Is that what this is?
- [17:28]
C
Not with the woman that I was with, not with the woman who bore me, Leila, but the person they've got down there, she deserves to die. You know, I think it's. It's easy to underestimate how skilled some people are at pretending and, you know, wearing a certain mask. I think oftentimes when we have somebody like Travis in the situation who is a victim as well, you know, he lost his daughter and you know, he's saying, I had no idea. We all want to know. Oh, there's got to be something. There's got to be all these red flags there. You should have seen something. What did you not see? Relationships are built on trust. And we often trust people until we. They give us a reason not to.
- [18:11]
A
And, and that Mia, the other daughter, is going to have to live with the fact that her, her mom allegedly tried to kill her. And, and, and Mia, from what Travis is telling me, she doesn't necessarily believe her mom did it. She's backing her mom up on this, that her mom isn't responsible for this.
- [18:30]
C
And what. What is her. What is the alternative explanation? Do you.
- [18:33]
A
I don't know, but that Travis has been told that, that m. That this is his, that, that her, her mom could have done this, this denial that her mother could try to do something as heinous as this.
- [18:47]
B
We're all there having fun. I mean, it's like she cooked everything she. Like she always does. I mean, it was nothing different than any other holiday get together. There's a lot of factors in it that just doesn't make sense. And they've put a lot of stuff out there that's just twisted words and not what's actually been said.
- [19:11]
C
I would really like to know a lot more about their relationship in terms of, you know, is this a mom who kind of controlled and brainwashed her children so they, they don't. They can't just kind of see things clearly? I mean, what other alternative can there be? And I mean, to sit there and see that you're sister died and your boyfriend, you were deathly ill. I mean, I can't imagine how you. How would you would explain that other than. I mean, was it. What would. I'm. I'm kind of at it, at a loss. What. I mean, what would you say about that?
- [19:44]
A
No, I know. I. I think in my head I'm thinking she's going to go with accident. That it was an accident.
- [19:52]
C
Yeah, that certainly has been in her history.
- [19:55]
A
What keeps on going back to is this isn't like a small child, this isn't some level of postpartum. This isn't, this is a 32 year old woman who was murdered. It to me that's the really mind boggling part is that she would do this to a grown woman, I mean, who is her daughter. It's, it's very, very strange. But, but, but I guess there was a motive. You know, the alleged motive would be greed.
- [20:24]
C
That's certainly what sounds like it in terms of what we know. I mean, and I think what it does is, it really is. If this is true and this is her motive and she did do this, I mean it is an extreme example of somebody, I think who literally does see everybody in her life, including her own children as pawns. They're just pieces that she can move around to get what she wants. And you know, that that may show up in all of her relationships. You know, where she's with this person for this particular reason there they literally are just a means to an end for her. And I think it's shocking because you're right, we think about the fact that she's had, I mean she bored as child, she raised this child, this is now a young adult and apparently there was no huge problems between the two of them.
- [21:11]
A
No, very close.
- [21:14]
C
I mean, yeah. To think about somebody being able to just sit back and be that cold and calculating and just kind of run the numbers and kind of go, well at this point it's, you know, it's, it's, it's. I've run the cost benefit analysis and I think it's. Your time is up. Okay, this is my best avenue here. This is my best option. I can't think of anything that's more cold or calculating than that.
- [21:38]
A
No. The psychopathy of that or is it psychopathy?
- [21:43]
C
I mean, you know, if all the allegations are true, I mean we obviously I'm not, have not never met her, I've never diagnosed her, I've never evaluated her. So I cannot say that she is a psychopath at this point. I will say to you, if all the allegations are against her are true because that would mean they span over a long period of time across settings, across time. You know, that certainly is going to tip the scale. I don't think it would be that difficult to find that kind of diagnosis as a very, very high probability. Because when you're looking at psychopathy, sometimes what happens is, you know, somebody will do something that's terrible and will Immediately go, this is a psychopath. But in order to be a psychopath, it's got to be across situations. It's got to be across time. And the allegations that are surfacing and are just continuing to surface support that well.
- [22:35]
A
And I mean, also, you know, Travis was able to give us a little bit of insight to what it looked like to see her at the funeral. Travis being the biological father of Leil, he's devastated, completely devastated. And. And he gives gutter and a hug. And his recollection was like. It was like hugging cardboard.
- [22:55]
C
When I'd give her a hug or go up to talk to her, she seemed wouldn't.
- [22:58]
A
She had no emotion. She didn't cry. She just. She was just hard. That's pretty much what you'd expect,
- [23:10]
C
I think. It's hard to know what you would expect. You want to look at her past behavior, right? I mean, have there been other times? I mean, is she somebody who acts in a certain way or puts on an air? I mean, I think it's not so much. This is how you should act as much as it is. Is this in comparison to her baseline? I mean, she seems like somebody who's very cool, who is very calm, who's very collected. You know, she might. What was the situation that happened where, oh, she opens the restaurant and then, you know, all these people are getting. You know, she's not paying them or whatever. And then there's the news feed of her, and she's just as calm as she can be.
- [23:44]
A
Just.
- [23:45]
C
You just know it's no problem. And that is how I can see her being no matter what.
- [23:50]
A
So it's like this complete detachment from the. The. The. The grief or the emotion. The grief or anything.
- [24:01]
C
You're right. I mean, that's one of the things. It was interesting that. That Travis said that. That there's this kind of woodness because it doesn't seem like she cares that much about anything, at least as a person, as much as it does money or greed. But, yeah, there's. There's nothing that I've seen that she has any real feelings toward. It's more the means to an end kind of thing we're talking about.
- [24:24]
A
It's a. More of a means to it. And. And you know what also was kind of crazy here is that I kept on asking Travis, I was like, tell me about our family, like, because I did just deal with the Gilgo beach story, and that sounded crazy. I mean, he. His kill room was in his childhood bedroom of the home that he took over from his parents. The parents sounded very controlling from the. The way they were described by his wife. You know, so you're kind of looking back saying, what happened to Rex to. To cause this and not to call. You know, every serial killer didn't have to be the same. But Gudrun or Linda, I mean, he was like, no, her parents. Her mom was crying at the funeral, wondering why she wasn't more upset. And, you know, like, they're. The parents he said were good people. He. They lived with them for a while.
- [25:11]
C
I've heard you were talking about that. I mean, I. There's this big question mark. I feel like, with her, like, what is her background? I mean, what. What is this. Is this absence of emotion or absence of care about anybody? I mean, it seems like. It also seems like she's very predatory in some respects. I mean, she's picking this guy, Michael Schmidt, who she's now saying has an alcohol and drug problem, and he's vulnerable in that way. Now she's got Eric Lund on there, who's pretty vulnerable in terms of. He might have a potential substance abuse issue. So what. You know, where is this coming from? I mean, I think that would be really important to. To kind of try to figure out about where is. Where does this start? We don't know that. Where that is. I mean, all we know is. Is her.
- [25:55]
A
Yeah, I mean, I want to know. I, like, I want you in the room with her, Joni, to just tell me, like, is she got multiple personality issues? I mean, what are we. What are we dealing with that she is able to detach like this and have this. This double life or triple or more than that?
- [26:12]
C
I mean, you're talking about the aliases that she has, right? And just the fact that they're, you know, there's no sense of any emotion. But we're talking about. And this kind of lack of emotion that she seems to have, even for her children, I mean, is. I can't even wrap my head around that. As you pointed out, you. You raised a child who's now 32 years old, and then another one who's 28, and you're trying to kill them because you're having financial problems. I mean, that doesn't make any sense. And if this is all true, that she's, you know, that's kind of how she's been from day one, that she doesn't care about anything other than. I mean, all I've. All I'm hearing is that she just cares about greed or about money and that that's it. That's the only thing that matters to her.
- [26:53]
A
Another strange part of this story line is that according to the other men at the table, there were two other men at the table that Thanksgiving dinner.
- [27:03]
C
I think it's very strange, not only the fact that they were both kind of tagged as her boyfriend, but they both had some kind of business dealings or have kind of co owned businesses with each other, both of whom I think had just recently been liquidated within a couple of weeks before this poisoning occurs. So I just feel like there is just like I said, there's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we're going to find out in terms of the timing around, you know, why now? Why was this poisoning happening now? And what you know, was she desperate for money? It sounds like she was having some serious financial problems. Well, why weren't the boyfriends targeted if they had some financial dealings with her? And there's just so many questions I think that we still have to answer
- [27:43]
A
and hopefully they're going to get answers because these are, as you said, alleged crimes that took place over decades now, which is unbelievable. Well, I thank you so much, Joanie. Thank you for your time. It's so, so fascinating to talk to you.
- [28:02]
C
Well, I enjoyed it. It's my pleasure, always. And thank you.
- [28:06]
A
Drop a comment below. I want to hear what you think about these five warning signs and how they fit the profile of a female serial killer. And be sure to like subscribe and turn on your notifications to Criminally Obsessed. We'll be updating this story and I don't want you to miss anything on this case.