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Criminally Obsessed
"A Blood Pool The Size Of A Human Body": Forensics Expert Examines USF Couple's Murder
00:27:46
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, everyone. I'm Ann Emerson and this is Criminally Obsessed. There's a case out of Tampa that I cannot stop thinking about. Two doctoral students found dead after missing for a week. They were such a cute couple, both 27 years old. Jamil Lehman and his girlfriend, Nahida Bristi. Both students at the University of South Florida at Tampa. Both found in black garbage bags. One on a bridge and the other in the water. Why would anyone want them dead? They certainly didn't appear to be a threat to anyone. And their families are devastated.
- [00:38]
B
My parents, their hearts broken and they're crying like a child. So loud that you can hear it from the sky. I feel like maybe this is a dream. Maybe it is not happening. Maybe it's just a bad dream and I'll wake up and things will go back to normal.
- [00:59]
A
Police say mounds of evidence, both physical and electronic, led them to the roommate, Hisham Abu Ghabi. I'm going to give you all of the updates, but please like and subscribe so you don't miss any of the updates to this story. Back to Abu Gharbi. He was arrested in a blue bath towel. He's been charged with two counts of premeditated first degree murder and he's being held without bond.
- [01:24]
C
There was a blood pool about the size of a human body.
- [01:28]
A
I'm talking with Dr. Michelle Dupre. She's a well known forensic pathologist. Are garbage bags used in homicides? As often as I feel like I'm hearing about them, they actually are.
- [01:40]
C
I'm not exactly sure why. When we find a garbage bag or a trash bag, it's very suspicious. So, yes, it's used quite often, but it just doesn't work.
- [01:48]
A
Let's get into it. Doctor Dupree, thank you so much for joining me to talk about what happened down at usf. It's a very tragic case, but it's also a really complicated one because of the amount of information we've been given. So I'm glad you could go through this with us.
- [02:10]
C
My pleasure.
- [02:11]
A
What we're talking about, you know, with these two students was that it was a, you know, it was a roommate situation that the police are investigating. And, you know, basically when they started closing in on one of the roommates as a suspect, they talked to the other roommate and the other roommate kind of got the, really got the ball rolling saying that, you know, that this suspect had taken during the time when, when Zamil and Nahida had disappeared, that this roommate named Hashem Abu Gabi had taken a cart down to a trash compactor and was getting rid of a bunch of stuff out of. Of the apartment. And I'm just going to read to you what we heard about this was the night between 16th and 17th of April. This is when they disappeared A black floor mat from the kitchen, which tested presumptive positive for blood. And that's something I want to put a pin and I want to go back to and talk to you about. A pot and a pan. A wallet, a Visa, a MasterCard, all with the victim's names. A meal on it. A gray shirt with holes that also tested presumptive positive for blood. A pink iPhone case. Socks, tan slides again, more blood. And glasses consistent with the ones that Zamil wore. We're hearing a lot about presumptive blood. Can you tell me what that means?
- [03:35]
C
Sure. So if we're at a crime scene and we see something that looks like blood, we do a presumptive test, which means that we basically swab it with something called phenolphthalein. And if it turns like a bubblegum pink, then it is blood. But we don't know yet if it's human or animal blood. So then it actually goes to the lab and is tested for human blood. And in this case, it tested presumptively for blood.
- [04:01]
A
Yeah. And this. How accurate is it?
- [04:03]
C
It's actually very accurate to know that it's blood, but it doesn't actually tell us whether it's human or not until we tested in the laboratory.
- [04:12]
A
Got it. And so when you are thinking about this list of items that they find out, you know, they go down and they find out that the, that this suspect has taken all of these items out of his apartment. They, he's taken them down to some kind of trash compactor. What do you think about the. This list of items that you hear?
- [04:35]
C
Well, I believe that he said, when he was interviewed, he said that he was taking things closed and stuff, that he wanted to get rid of things. These were not his possessions. These were things that belonged to someone else. I mean, this is. It's such a red flag. Why would you be doing that? And so that's. That's, to me, is quite a giveaway.
- [04:52]
A
You know, we do know that he did a search in Amazon and that he had ordered things. So there was like this premeditation of this suspect, you know, according to what the police tell us. But, Dr. Dupree, this just sounds dumb. Like the way it's rolling out, is it just like a lack of understanding of what is going on?
- [05:16]
C
You know, I don't know whether he was just overconfident and thought that he would get away with it, but I mean, he is leaving a trail for investigators to follow. That is wonderful. I mean, you know, everything that he's doing is just. Is pointing to him and it's appointed to his guilt.
- [05:32]
A
Well, and, you know, it goes on because once they do that, they start pinging the victim's phones, they getting into some of this digital, you know, cell phone evidence and digital evidence that they need to look at. They're looking at license plate readers. They get warrants for the apartment. And you know, once they start dealing with like the vehicle and the phone for. For the suspect, Abu Gharbi, they. They kind of hit the mother load. And, and one of the things that I see, and I've seen this in other cases too, I'm thinking that you have too. If I have. I'm sure you have. But they read two of the chat GPT searches that he does. They actually have in this, and it says on April 13, which is before these. These poor kids disappear. What happens if a human is put in a black garbage bag and thrown in a dumpster? And that's followed by. How would they find out? I mean, in your line of work, like are g. Are. Are garbage bags used as in homicides? As often as I feel like I'm hearing about them, they actually are.
- [06:44]
C
I'm not exactly sure why, because they really. They conceal, but they really don't cover up because when the body starts to decompose, there is an odor that's associated with that. And, and the garbage bags don't really cover all of that up. And when we find a garbage bag or a trash bag, it's very suspicious. I mean, just by nature. So, yes, it's used quite often, but it just doesn't work.
- [07:07]
A
No, and it's just so disturbing too, because, you know, we're hearing about it. It's so top of mind in the cases that I'm working in right now because of what happened with the suspect, David. David Anthony Burke. I'm literally working on those. That case right now this week. We've been covering it heavily and, you know, that's what the police say. That's what was found in the front of his. Of the car registered to him. The Tesla was garbage bags. Yeah, I guess it's a. It's a matter of convenience at that point.
- [07:39]
C
I think it's convenience and does help to contain, if you will, some of the evidence. But again, it, it just. It's not good enough.
- [07:50]
A
Well, and also, they said that they found, you know, when they got into the apartment, when they were able to do the warrant on the actual apartment, they found a trail of blood that led from the suspect's room, you know, into the hallway, a hallway leading from the kitchen to the bedroom to Abu Gharbi stains on his bedroom carpet. Presumptive for positive for blood. And then they said they used an enhancement agent. Dr. Dupree, can you talk to me? What is an enhancement agent? What are they doing?
- [08:22]
C
So if we find something that looks like blood, we want to know the extent of blood that there is. And so we will use something like luminol or Blue Star or some product like that that will actually highlight all of the blood. And we can tell so much from blood spatter, blood spatter analysis. You know, we can tell where the major event occurred, how many times they were struck. We can tell all sorts of things from that. And so this enhancement product will then light it up in a. In a bright blue fashion, which we can take photos of, and we can see the extent of the blood, even though we may not be able to see it with our naked eye.
- [08:59]
A
Well, and that's basically giving them yet another breadcrumb trail of what happened in this whole thing. Right. This is helping them set up where. Where the actual crime scene took place.
- [09:10]
C
Absolutely. And it's also telling us that it's. It's not just a small injury. It was extensive. I think that in one of the. The things that I read, there was a blood pool about the size of a human body. And that may or may not have been able to be seen with the naked eye, but it was certainly able to be seen with this enhancement product.
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A
And when you see that much blood on the ground, what are you thinking?
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C
What do you.
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A
As far as how these. These victims died?
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C
Well, it was very violent. We look at the amount of blood, and the amount of blood that we see on the surface is really only a small portion of what is underneath. Especially if there's carpet or even flooring, there's usually a lot more blood underneath that. And so we know that someone in this case most likely died at that location because of the amount of blood.
- [09:59]
A
And do you know, sort of. Can I know that? We. We do have one of the victims. One of the victims was found Zamil Lemon. They. They think they found Nahida as well. Nahida, Bristie, these doctoral students from Bangladesh that were romantically involved. It sounded like they might be getting married. It's just so heartbreaking. But the we do know they found Zamil and he did have these wounds that were significant and looked like they had been from a sharp object. But if you're just looking at what you see on the ground there, this, this enormous amount of blood evidence, can you tell whether or not it's what kind of how they died? Are you looking at like wounds from a knife versus a gunshot wound?
- [10:53]
C
We are. Again, this, the blood pattern analysis. A gunshot wound, for example, you're going to have a fine mist of droplets. A knife w is going to be much different. They're going to be larger droplets. And in something like this, we're going to look at any spray patterns or anything like that that can tell us the type of instrument. It can also tell us again, you know, where the majority of the attack took place. And in this case it was certainly very violent and took place in that location.
- [11:22]
A
Well, we're going to get to some of the more information about the wounds as well. But I want to, I want to make another point too, is that it looks like, you know, we're talking about the crime scene and as far as where because obviously they didn't find the bodies, they just found the blood. So now they're looking for the bodies of these poor kids and they go to the phone records and on April 17 between 1 and 4am it appears that the suspect Abu Gharbi had stopped, had made a couple of stops on a bridge in Tampa. I'm going to detail this one. It stops on Howard Franklin Bridge. Twelve seconds later it disconnects from the car for eight minutes. It connects and disconnects from Bluetooth until about 4:21:22 when it starts moving north. So later on in the affidavit, we're going to learn that the location where he stopped is the exact latitude and longitude with the body of Zamil Liman was found a week later. A week later. So he was put into these black bags left on the side of a bridge. And according to the reports, they found similar black bags underneath the bed of this suspect as the black bag that the body of Zimiel Aman was discovered.
- [12:41]
C
Again, you know, this, this is so in some ways it's really atypical because this, there's so many clues here that just absolutely point to what he did, how he did it, even to some extent when he did it. It's just, it's incredible when we hear
- [12:58]
A
it's a week later. How do we think this is going to affect the death investigation?
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C
Well, It's. It's always a little more difficult to determine the cause or manner of death in a decomposed body. And certainly the body would be decomposing at this point, but we can always, almost always tell the injuries. And in this case, even though the body would be in some stage of decomposition, we would be able to tell what happened to that person and perhaps even give it a, A relative estimate on time frame.
- [13:28]
A
So when you're looking at the injuries, he had areas of trauma to his torso. His legs were deeply lacerated at the hip, and they were deeply lacerated because the legs, according to the report, had been folded on. On the body in order to be able to be put into the bag. Is that, is that unusual when you find these, these horrible homicide murder victims?
- [13:56]
C
It isn't really, because it's very difficult to, to put a body into something the size of a garbage bag without being able to fold it in some way. We don't know at what point he did this or how long he kept the body, but rigor mortis, or the stiffening of the body actually begins to take place in a few hours. And so it may have been difficult for him to try and maneuver the body into the trash bag unless he was able to cut it and make it smaller to fit. And that is probably what he did.
- [14:25]
A
Yeah. And is that. Have you seen that before?
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C
I have seen that. I've seen them in suitcases, boxes, anything like that. And typically that's what the perpetrator is going to do because they have to make it fit into that closed container.
- [14:40]
A
And how would he even know to do that? I mean, I guess. I guess it's just a matter of, like, being there in this spot. It just sounds like such a. I mean, I know this is such a grisly detail. It was just kind of took me by surprise that he was. I just wonder if we're going to find out if this isn't another part of his research that he was doing as well, which is disturbing in itself.
- [15:01]
C
It is very disturbing. I mean, the things that he asked basically on Internet and the answers that he got, just the questions he was asking. So I'm sure that he probably did. And then we do see some of this on television as well, when they try to hide the body.
- [15:16]
A
Okay. And also I saw that his, his wrists and his ankles were bound and that he was naked. That was a couple of the other things that the, the police report told us. What does that tell you about this crime? What happened?
- [15:35]
C
All of this to me, again, Points to premeditation. He was aware of what he was going to do. He did have to apparently bind the person so that he didn't fight back. Although knife attacks or sharp force injury attacks, usually the perpetrator gets cut in some way also because the, the victim isn't sitting still or standing still unless they've been knocked out first. And there's no real indication of that in this case. And so, yeah, I'm not a bit surprised.
- [16:05]
A
Well, and we did hear about injuries to the suspect that they pointed out in this affidavit as well. They wanted to make sure that as they, they presented this evidence, that the courts were going to know that he showed that he had injuries that looked like he had been cut.
- [16:21]
C
Exactly. And typically we would call those defensive injuries. And that is where the victim is going to have injuries on themselves from fighting back. But the perpetrator is also going to have some injuries. And to some extent they are also defensive injuries because the victim is fighting back and trying to get away. And so we find that a lot in sharp force injuries.
- [16:45]
A
And why didn't you think they said, they talked about how it was a blade, a bladed instrument that did it? Why, why do they not just come out and say that it's a, it's a knife?
- [16:55]
C
Well, a bladed instrument or sharp force injuries can take many forms. It could be a hunting knife, it could be a sword, it could be a machete, it could be even a hatchet. In this case, you know, I don't think it was those things. But to say it's a knife, you, you narrow down the scope too much. And then if you should go to court, you don't want to pin it down that much. A sharp force instrument is just much better and much broader. Until they actually find the murder weapon.
- [17:18]
A
Do you think that they would be able to be able to tell the difference in blades if they were doing it in the autopsy with markings on the, on the bone, if there are any mark? Or would we know that by now if there were markings on the bone?
- [17:29]
C
Actually, I'm sure the medical examiner probably knows that. I'm not sure how much information they would release. But we can tell if it's a serrated blade like a stage steak knife, or if it's a different blade. If it's a blade with a handle or a guard on it, we can generally tell that. So there's many things we can tell. And certainly hatchet is going to make
- [17:47]
A
a very different mark, and there's really not one that you're going to see over another. It's more once again what they're the, the perpetrator is going to be able to get his hands on.
- [17:59]
C
Exactly. It's going to be something of convenience or something that he is comfortable with or familiar with.
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A
We also know about what could be the fatal injury. It appears that there were two, I'm reading it from the report. Two lacerations on the right lower abdomen 2cm deep. Another left of his belly button above the left thigh there's a 1cm deep and one to lower back area 10cm deep. And it appears to have perforated the liver. When you hear that, where do you think the fatal injury would have come in?
- [18:34]
C
I think again, not, not knowing too much about some of the other injuries, but that is certainly a lethal injury. The liver contains a lot of blood and injury, serious injury to the liver can cause someone to die.
- [18:48]
A
So that would make sense as far as what happened. How this is so grizzly to ask but like how painful. How long are we talking about when you're being, when you're going through these kind of stab wounds, is this a prolonged death?
- [19:07]
C
Prolonged in, in the sense that we might think it is versus what the victim thinks it is. It is a prolonged death. Even though it may only be minutes. A person can bleed to death in three to six minutes, again depending on where those injuries are. And the liver is going to bleed profusely, especially if it is damaged that badly. And so it was a matter of minutes, but I'm sure to the victim it felt like forever. And sharp force injuries are very painful. You get a paper cut, you know how painful that is. Imagine something even, you know, a knife injury is even worse.
- [19:40]
A
And also in the, just the, the, the fright of the whole thing and the fear of the whole experience as well. It's just, it's, it's, it's so bad. And I know that they're still looking for Nahida Bristy. I know that they're still looking. Oh, they think they have found her, her remains, they, they have no hope that they are going to find her alive. According to the police, they don't think she's alive, but they do. They are trying to identify these remains. Why is it taking so long right now to, to figure that out?
- [20:13]
C
Well, part of it is because it has been a, an extended period of time. The body is going to be in, you know, a very deep state of decomposition. It's probably going to have to be done by dental records or perhaps even DNA. And if it has to Go to mitochondrial DNA. That would take a bit longer.
- [20:32]
A
How long. How much longer should we expect? We don't know. But, I mean, if you were. Since you've already seen that, it's been, you know, a couple of days that they're. They're trying to figure it out, do you think we'll know by the end of this week?
- [20:44]
C
I doubt it. We may. If the body is in relatively better condition than I think it may be, but it may take. It may take a week or two.
- [20:53]
A
And they did find these remains in water near the bridge. Does that change how they're trying to identify Nahida?
- [21:01]
C
It changes it a bit in that remains in water. Typically, water will preserve the remains for a little while, but then as soon as the body is removed from water, decomposition sets in a lot faster. It almost catches up in time, if you will. And so the water will also cause things like. Like animals in the water to do postmortem artifact damage to that body, which is going to make it even more difficult. And that is the places of injury are where the animals are going to start first.
- [21:31]
A
And it's also Florida. Right. So you have that humidity and the heat. Are those. Those are going into the whole equation as well with the decomposition, I would think.
- [21:42]
C
Absolutely. The. The environment, the heat is certainly going to speed up the decomposition.
- [21:48]
A
As far as what we're learning about this suspect, obviously this is going to, you know, play into why? Because, Dr. Dupre, that is one thing that I can't even fathom, besides the fact we've gotten reports that he had anger management issues. He had a criminal record for past domestic violence issues. I was looking at the press conference. It appears that when they took Abu Ghabi in to police at the beginning, there's this extraordinary video of him coming out in a towel, and he's. He's not wearing anything. So I wasn't expecting the police to say this, but they had actually gotten called on a domestic violence call that day at that house. They had removed the family. We don't know if it was a suspect's family, but that's what, you know, if you put two and two together, that's what it's all sounding like, that this is where he was. But the family was moved to safety. But he didn't want to come out, but he's sitting there in a towel, naked. I mean, it's just so bizarre.
- [22:49]
C
It is bizarre. And I'm not sure I've seen cases like this before where a suspect is about to be apprehended and, and they're. They're naked. I don't know whether they disrobed then, or whether they've, you know, been contemplating what they've done in the nude. But I've seen this happen really, Twice. Yes. And it is bizarre. It truly is bizarre.
- [23:12]
A
That's so weird because, I mean, you. I have seen cases where they thought that they might have a bomb on them or something, so that they strip them down as soon as they get them into SWAT or just to make sure that everybody's safe on location. But that is. That is so interesting. I. I might have to bring in a psychologist to talk about why somebody would feel the need. And of course, we have no idea. We do know, though, just to talk about it, that the. The victim, Zamil, had come forward. His brother says that he reached out to the housing unit and said, this guy is crazy. Like, the guy that I live with right now is. Is crazy. And he was very worried about his safety and about danger in that housing unit.
- [23:56]
C
And his family. I believe his family even said that he had violent tendencies.
- [24:01]
A
Exactly. So you do wonder, like, where the ball got dropped in those. And it makes you think about, you're in a foreign country, you don't have any of your family there, you're from Bangladesh, you know, so this beautiful couple had come here to study. And it. I know that whole community is grieving deeply right now, but I hope that we can understand it better just by talking about it. So I appreciate it. I appreciate you spending some time with me today to understand that. It does appear to be premeditated. The police say that the first Amazon purchase that raised their Suspicions was on April 7th. And we're thinking that this crime didn't take place until April 16. He, the suspect had bought duct tape. And we know that Zamil's hands and feet were bound. We also know that his wound had duct tape on it with Kleenex on his hand. So, yeah, there's a breadcrumb trail here for sure, isn't there?
- [25:03]
C
There is. And the premeditation, I think, stands out.
- [25:06]
A
He'd been thinking about this. He planned it. He planned it. And, you know, and we don't know. I mean, why would you ever do that? I mean, it's, it's. It is going to be a very difficult, you know, case to understand for people. I think I did see they had a major GoFundMe out right now. So we'll be sure to put that into our link as well, so people be. Will be able to look at that, but they really were. They were very special, I think.
- [25:36]
C
Yeah, I agree. The tragic, tragic act.
- [25:40]
A
It's unbelievable. I've got a link to the GoFundMe below if you want to help the family. Jamil's brother told me that Jamil's future financial success was going to be very important to his family back in Bangladesh. Now that is all gone. Police need anyone with dash cam video from the Howard Franklin Bridge in the early morning hours of April 17th to come forward. They're hoping that if they have any video, they can help them. In this case, police have not released a possible motive. You gotta wonder, if there was a trigger. Was it because Jamil had complained to the Housing Authority about his roommate's actions, or was it another argument or jealousy? Tell me what you think happened in the comments.