Lori Vallow Daybell Psych Profile: Inside her "Supernatural Encounters"

Summary

Criminally Obsessed — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Lori Vallow Daybell Psych Profile: Inside her "Supernatural Encounters"
Host: Ann Emerson
Guests: Lauren and Dr. John Matthias (Hidden True Crime)
Date: April 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Criminally Obsessed delves into the mind and motives of Lori Vallow Daybell, the convicted "doomsday mom" whose bizarre beliefs and shocking crimes have gripped the nation. Host Ann Emerson is joined by true crime experts Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and award-winning investigative journalist Lauren Matthias, to analyze newly released jail bodycam footage showing Lori claiming a tube of toothpaste appeared as a “miracle” after she prayed for it. The discussion deeply examines Lori’s psychological profile, her religious delusions, lack of remorse, and the ongoing intrigue surrounding her appeals and defense strategies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: New Jailhouse Video & Its Significance

• [00:00–02:00] The episode begins with Ann Emerson introducing new bodycam footage from an Arizona jail, in which Lori is confronted about contraband (M&M’s, gum, Miracle toothpaste) she claims “appeared” after prayer—on her birthday.
  • Lori’s crimes are summarized: the murders of her two children (Tylee Ryan & JJ Vallow), her ex-husband, participation in her lover’s wife's death, and a failed murder attempt.
  • The timing of the video emerges as her attorney argues on appeal that her constitutional rights were violated at trial.

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2. Unpacking Lori's Mindset—Miracles or Manipulation?

• [03:19–06:00] Dr. John Matthias notes that while Lori seems complex, her behavior is easier to understand when viewed through the lens of her extreme belief system:
  • “Once you get inside her belief system then I think she makes a lot more sense..." ([03:19])
• [06:03–08:49] The guests listen to the jail video, where Lori claims she tried to “show them that miracles do happen. Yeah, yeah, it was my birthday.” ([05:52])
  • Dr. Matthias equates her magical thinking with the placebo effect: it’s about the belief, not reality.
    • "[Her delusion] creates the expectation for this type of situation... that tells us a lot about her beliefs." ([06:11])
  • Lauren prompts whether Lori doubles down on these beliefs to maintain innocence even to herself.

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3. Does Lori Really Believe in Her Miracles?

• [08:49–13:08] The debate arises: Is Lori performing, manipulating, or genuinely delusional?
  • Dr. Matthias explores hyperactive agency detection: Lori sees intent and divine intervention everywhere, interpreting mundane events as supernatural.
    • “She’s attributing agency to something that’s supernatural that most of us would say doesn’t exist.” ([12:05]—Dr. Matthias)
  • Lauren argues Lori’s demeanor isn’t a courtroom act in this video: “This is just who Lori Vallow is.” ([14:00])
  • Memorable moment: Lori, giggly and childlike, rationalizes the “miracle” gift of toothpaste as a birthday sign from God ([15:20]).

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4. The Lori “Cheerleader” Persona—Manipulation or Habit?

• [15:57–17:17] Lauren describes the consistent use of a bubbly, manipulative “Miss Texas” persona by Lori—even behind bars.
  • “She giggles, she bats her eyelashes, she smiles, she flirts... and yet still using that same voice... The contrast is a big thing for me.” ([15:57]—Lauren Matthias)
• The guests are struck by Lori’s apparent conviction in her narrative, even as reality contradicts it.

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5. Competency, Delusions, and the Appeals Process

• [17:54–18:59] Ann asks if Lori’s jailhouse claims could figure into her legal competency or appeals.
  • Dr. Matthias explains that while Lori is obviously delusional, she met the legal standard for competency: “She knew where she was... what she was doing... why she was there...” ([18:59]—Lauren Matthias)
  • Lauren emphasizes how Lori has consistently defended herself in court, showing organization and intention despite her delusions.

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6. No Remorse, No Self-Reflection

• [21:03–22:24] The panel highlights Lori's total lack of remorse and capacity for self-reflection:
  • Dr. Matthias: “This is someone who utterly lacks the capacity for self reflection... She’s not going to learn from experience.” ([21:03]; [21:50])
  • Lauren: “It’s easier for a woman who’s a mother...to feel justified...than to face the fact that she did that.” ([18:59], paraphrased)
• Lori, they conclude, will double down on her beliefs rather than face guilt, especially now in prison.

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7. Solipsism, Narcissism, and Personality Profile

• [23:01–25:47] Discussion of Lori’s deeply solipsistic (self-absorbed) and narcissistic traits:
  • Dr. Matthias: “She can’t get outside of herself, she can’t self reflect, she can’t understand other people’s pain...” ([23:01])
• The concept of “openness to experience” is introduced—Lori’s lack of which may contribute to her criminality and inability to consider other perspectives.

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8. A Pattern of Entitlement & Rule-Breaking

• [28:57–31:40] The forensic psychologist describes the strict rules around bringing anything into jail and how Lori's willingness to accept or request contraband reflects a sense of entitlement and antisocial tendencies:
  • “There’s something very antisocial... about Lori taking this contraband knowing she's breaking the rules... She feels entitled.” ([30:56]–[31:24]—Dr. Matthias)
  • Her justifications (“It’s my birthday”) further demonstrate this entitlement.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• "If you start with that premise… delusional disorder with religious hyper religiosity… that tells us a lot about her beliefs."
  — Dr. John Matthias ([06:11])

• "She's attributing agency to something that's supernatural that most of us would say doesn't exist."
  — Dr. John Matthias ([12:05])

• "This is just who Lori Vallow is."
  — Lauren Matthias ([14:00])

• “She giggles, she bats her eyelashes, she smiles, she flirts… yet still using that same voice… The contrast is a big thing for me.”
  — Lauren Matthias ([15:57])

• "This is someone who utterly lacks the capacity for self reflection... She's not going to learn from experience."
  — Dr. John Matthias ([21:03], [21:50])

• "She can’t get outside of herself, she can’t self reflect, she can’t understand other people’s pain…"
  — Dr. John Matthias ([23:01])

• “There’s something very antisocial... she knows she’s breaking the rules. She clearly knows that... She feels entitled.”
  — Dr. John Matthias ([30:56], [31:23])

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Memorable Moments & Psychological Takeaways

• Lori's "Miracle Topepaste" ([05:52], [15:33]) — Lori giggles as she describes how praying for toothpaste made it appear as a birthday miracle. This moment is both absurd and revealing, crystallizing her magical thinking.
• Consistent Persona ([15:57]) — Lori’s continued use of her bubbly, cheerleader voice, even after conviction and in jail, is striking and unsettling.
• Unwavering Conviction in Delusions ([25:47]) — Even after defending herself and receiving guilty verdicts, Lori appears genuinely surprised, underscoring the depth of her detachment from reality.
• Reflections on Remorse and Justice ([21:03–22:24]) — Panelists agree that Lori’s lack of remorse and self-reflection is absolute; her religious delusions serve as self-justification, insulating her from guilt.

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Important Timestamps

• [00:14] – Introduction of bodycam video and context for Lori’s magical thinking
• [05:52] – Lori: “I was going to show it to them because I was trying to show them that miracles do happen. Yeah, yeah, it was my birthday.”
• [06:11] – Dr. Matthias: Psychological assessment of delusional disorder
• [12:05] – Dr. Matthias: “Attributing agency to something supernatural…”
• [14:00] – Lauren: “This is just who Lori Vallow is.”
• [15:33] – Lori’s “giggly teenager” explanation, reinforcing her MO
• [18:59] – Lauren: Lori’s competence despite her belief system
• [21:03] – Dr. Matthias: “Utterly lacks the capacity for self reflection…”
• [23:01] – Solipsism and narcissism in Lori’s personality
• [25:47] – Lauren: Lori’s disconnect at her own verdict
• [30:56–31:23] – Dr. Matthias: Entitlement and antisocial tendencies in breaking jail rules

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Conclusion

The episode provides a chilling and thorough exploration of Lori Vallow Daybell’s psyche, drawing connections between her religious delusions, self-serving logic, narcissism, lack of remorse, habitual manipulation, and her continued attempts to evade responsibility even after being convicted. The panel concludes that Lori’s miraculous worldview is not an act but intrinsic to her identity—making her not only mystifying but deeply dangerous. The conversation also sheds light on the unique challenges her mindset poses for the justice system, especially as her appeals move forward.

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Want to weigh in?
Ann Emerson closes by asking listeners: Is Lori’s behavior a legal strategy, or does she truly believe it? Share your thoughts and let the discussion continue.

Transcript

[Ann Emerson]

Hi everybody, I'm Ann Emerson and this is Criminally Obsessed. We've got new body cam video out of an Arizona jail. Listen to this.

[Corrections Officer]

You prayed for it and it showed up.

[Ann Emerson]

What you're seeing is Lori Valo Daybell. She's being written up by a jail officer for contraband. Now we're talking M&M's gum, even Miracle toothpaste she claims appeared after she prayed for it. Now if that name sounds familiar, it should. Lori is a so called doomsday mom. She was convicted of killing her two kids, who she said were zombies, as well as her lover's wife, her own husband, and she was convicted of trying to kill her husband's nephew. And now at the same time that this jailhouse video is coming out, her attorney is trying to overturn her convictions, arguing her constitutional rights were violated during the murder trial of her children. So what does any of this actually mean? Does she really think that toothpaste is her own birthday miracle? And could it change anything? I want to bring in Lauren and Dr. John Matthias of Hidden True Crime. Let's get into it. Thank you for joining me. I've got John and Lauren Matthias of Hidden True Crime. Such, such a treat for me. I'm a big fan of their PODC podcasts and of their work. John, forensic psychologist, you've been doing this for, for more than 25 years, you know. And Lauren, your work is an award winning investigative journalist, reporter, host. It's just, y' all are just the, the incredible duo really in True Crime. So thank you for, for joining me today. I appreciate you being here.

[Lauren Matthias]

Thank you. And we, we love Criminally Obsessed and it's, it's, we've, we've been with each other at trials and chatted and so it's good to see you here in the podcast world.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, it's incredible because we're back here a year later and here we are, you know, in our own podcast studios basically talking about this case where we met because you know, it was five o' clock in the morning pre dawn Phoenix, Arizona for Lori Valo Daybell as she is facing murder charges on, on her husband Charles Vallow. And of course, and Lauren and her producer were there as well and I got a chance to see you in action there as well. But yeah, we're back talking about Lori and there's really no one I would rather speak to about this case than the two of you right now as far as understanding the psychology of this, this woman and where things stand right now. Laurie is a very complicated Character, Very.

[Lauren Matthias]

I think that's why she's captured the world's attention, honestly, just how complicated she is. And so I'm glad you asked. This is what I've literally been asking my husband, my co host here, John, for the past six years. I mean, maybe shot you take it away. Because she's very hard to understand. Someone that's murdered her children and doesn't give up. Right. It's just like those two things right there. Thinking that she's, she's should be free or something.

[Dr. John Matthias]

I think in some ways she's complex, but in other ways she's actually very simplistic. So in the sense that once you get inside her belief system then I think she makes a lot more sense. She's easier to understand. And actually I think that this jailhouse video is, is. It has a little piece in there that I think is, is really revealing of who she is and what she believes. I always say that you can take these little snippets, these little videos and learn so much about the criminal mind just by looking at some little details in there. And those details are in this. So I'm looking forward to talking about it.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah, absolutely. And to remind our viewers again, you know, this is. We're talking about Lori Valo, Daybell. You know, she has the storied history of this woman and what she's done as far as her, the layers that we're talking about of the murders of her two children, 16 year old Tyler Ryan and 7 year old J.J. valo. These murders, along with her relationship with Chad Daybell, what happened with his wife. And then moving on to her husb, then the attempted murder charges. Of course with Brandon, it's a lot, but I want to get into it. Playing part of this body cam that you're just mentioning, John. It's from July 1, 2025. It was a corrections officer who was confronting Lori Valo over contraband items that were found in her jail cell. And you know, this was about seven weeks I think since she had been convicted of killing her first husband. As we were speaking of the, the trial that we were at, Lauren, the Charles Vallow. And you really have to hear it to believe it.

[Corrections Officer]

And you had some toothpaste. Was it the same person that brought it for you or who brought you that?

[Lori Valo Daybell]

No, no one brought that.

[Corrections Officer]

Where did you get it?

[Lori Valo Daybell]

So,

[Corrections Officer]

huh.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

Nobody will believe me if I tell you.

[Corrections Officer]

What do you mean so?

[Lori Valo Daybell]

It's a long story, but I guess, but, but all those things like what

[Corrections Officer]

do you mean you guess? Whatever where did you get it from? Since you're, you're saying you didn't get it during your visit.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

Correct.

[Corrections Officer]

Where did it come from? You prayed for it and it showed up.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

Well, I was going to show it to them because I was trying to show them that miracles do happen. Yeah, yeah, it was my birthday.

[Ann Emerson]

We all heard that and thought, what? Like, where is she going with this, John? Where is she going with this?

[Dr. John Matthias]

So I think this part of this gets back to her belief system. Right? Like, maybe the best way to think about it is to think about it in terms of placebos. So you can, you can give somebody a sugar pill and tell them that it's for blood pressure and they'll take that. Depending on the person. If the person's highly suggestible, they'll take that and then their blood pressure will come down. Right. Or, or there's, there's. It depends. There's way, there's many, many ways of, of, of showing that placebos impact the physical body in different, you know, areas. But the important point is it's the expectation, it's the belief that influence. The placebos don't work because they actually have any medicinal value. They work because people believe they're going to work. People have the expectation they're going to work. Right. So you have to understand, Lori, I think you have to start with what's her expectation? What's her belief system? We know that back during the trial, Judge Boyce, reading some of her diagnoses, one of those was delusional disorder with religious hyper religiosity. And if you start with that premise, right. That, that tells us a lot about her beliefs. This is someone who has an extreme belief system. It's centered on her religious beliefs. And I think it's important to see that as creating the expectations for this type of situation. Right. If she has the expectation that she's going to manifest toothpaste through prayer in her jail cell, although we, we obviously know that's false. Right? We, we know that she's not. The toothpaste isn't showing up on her birthday in her jail cell because she prayed for it. Like, clearly she's not fooling the officer. But in her worldview, in her belief system, that works, right? Like she, she seems to think that's true because that's what she wants. That's her expectation. Right? It's, it's almost. It's like the placebo effect, in a way.

[Lauren Matthias]

I have a question to follow that up, John. Is it because this belief system is so needed for her to feel innocent of her crime still, that she just has, like, doubled down on this belief system, because all of us, I think, want to keep thinking there's no way, like, she's still doing this. It's an act, right? We sat there, Ann, in that trial,

[Ann Emerson]

like, I mean, it's. So she believes. I mean, if she's gonna. She's gonna get toothpaste. I mean, this. This is the way that she's rewarded. I mean, it's amazing, John.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Yeah, well, I mean, that's. That's the big question. That's. That's the question we've been asking since the start of daybell, which is the. That's what makes it more complex. The big question is, does she really believe this? Is it an act? Is it a manipulation? Is this theatrics? Is it a performance? Or does she have the type of belief system that suggests that she really thinks the toothpaste showed up because she prayed it into her jail cell?

[Lauren Matthias]

And so what's the answer? You're saying she does? You're saying she does.

[Dr. John Matthias]

I think. I mean, there's another part of this, by the way, and that there's something called hyperactive agency detection. And we see this a lot with conspiracy beliefs. We see it with people that believe in paranormal phenomenon. And basically, the idea behind agent human beings want to believe that there's a purpose behind behaviors and actions. We all. We all, for the most part, want to think, hey, there's some purpose for sure. You know, what happens, right?

[Ann Emerson]

A sign. Give me a sign kind of thing.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Give me a sign. Right, Exactly.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah. I think we are all guilty of saying that.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Right? Which. Which is normal. I mean, you know, we. We. We all have what's called a theory of mind, which means that we, in order to understand other people, we have to have some beliefs about how they act and why they do what they do that allows us to function in the, you know, normal world, you know, in a way that makes sense, in a way that we can negotiate that world. Right. And. But hyperactive agency detection is essentially when you believe there's some purpose and there's nothing. So, for example, you attribute a particular action to agency for. So, for example, if Lori has talked a lot about encountering. What does she call them, Lauren? Spirits. Ghosts. How does she describe it?

[Lauren Matthias]

Spirits. Angels, I think, even just. Yeah, angels.

[Ann Emerson]

I've heard that. Yep.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Angels. People coming back from, like, ghosts. And that's an example. That could be an example. I mean, I don't, you know, want to necessarily challenge people's beliefs and hidden ghosts. But when you attribute goals and purpose to those types of encounters. Right. That's an example of hyper. Hyperactive agency detection in the sense that you're. You're trying to explain phenomenon through something is for the most part would be called paranormal and you're imputing purpose to that situation. So Lori does that for everything. Right. It's not sufficient to say, hey, the reporter gave me this toothpaste. She has to.

[Lauren Matthias]

I think the reporter gave the M and Ms. Right. The M and Ms. Were the reporter and then the toothpaste was. Anyway. Go ahead.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Well, presumably, presumably the toothpaste was the reporter too.

[Lauren Matthias]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Right. I mean, she's saying she manifest it, but the point is, like she can't just say maybe another cellmate gave her the toothpaste. Right? She can't. Like she has to make it into this grand drama of miracle.

[Ann Emerson]

I think is what she said something supernatural? Yeah, that, that, that miracles do exist. This was her chance to show that miracles do exist.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Right. And so something supernatural. She prayed something supernatural hurt her. I don't know what that was. Maybe it was. She's visited. She's. She's not with Jesus according to her. Right. I mean, we don't know. She doesn't explain. But, but the, the point is that she's attributing agency to something that's supernatural that most of us would say doesn't exist.

[Lauren Matthias]

So I think ultimately though, in covering this for six years, Ian. Right. The question everybody has, even if they followed, you know, you or hidden whatever for six years, does Lori really believe this? Could it really be possible? Right. She defends herself and she says this stuff. And I think what this video shows is I don't think she ever thought that this would be public. I don't think she was putting on a performance in this moment. She was saying what she really thought and her explanation for everything, which is what John said. I'm just putting what John says in layman's terms. He brings the research. I just lay it out.

[Ann Emerson]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

Is in. In layman's rooms. She is saying that no matter what it is, she sees this as God's will. That everything is through God, through her belief system, even the toothpaste, even the M M's, Even though she requested the M M's and she asked, you know, the reporter to bring the M M's. The fact that the reporter, you know, and the toothpaste shows up, it's still a miracle. Everything is God's will. Even. Even the death of her children and her husband Charles and Tammy Daybell. It's all God's will. And it just is kind of mind blowing, I think, to really see that. And maybe this moment where you can put aside your, like, thoughts, like, she's not performing in this moment. She's not defending herself.

[Ann Emerson]

Right.

[Lauren Matthias]

This is just who Lori Valo is.

[Ann Emerson]

Well. And as you listen to the corrections officer talking to her, I. I have to wonder if she's heard Lori talk like this before, because she doesn't even bat an eyelid to this whole thing. Like, she doesn't even. She. She's like, there's no.

[Dr. John Matthias]

What.

[Ann Emerson]

What did you just say? What do you take from that? Like, I mean, great shooter.

[Lauren Matthias]

She was just like, no, nonsense.

[Ann Emerson]

I mean, is this something that inmates often say in. In. In prison? Like, oh, well, you know, this was. This was God's will. This was a miracle? Or is this just because this is Lori, that she's like, okay, it's a miracle? Okay, okay, that's what I'm gonna write down on this, you know, on this report.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Right. But then she cites her anyway, so apparently it didn't work.

[Ann Emerson]

No, it did not.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

But.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah. Is that something you just hear a lot in. In prison, John, or is this. Is this. I mean, John has assessed a lot of criminals behind bars. Is this typical?

[Dr. John Matthias]

I think there's. I think many criminals will explore religion, and they'll become more religious and. Right. They'll. They'll kind of adopt that belief system at times. It depends. But in terms of this sort of thing, in terms of miracles occurring in their. Their jail cells or the prison cells, no, this is. I think this is pretty unusual.

[Ann Emerson]

Yeah.

[Lauren Matthias]

And I.

[Ann Emerson]

You know, and the other thing was, if you listen to her voice as well, it's just that. That Lori sort of giggly teenager sort of vibe that's like, you know, it's my birthday.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

I know people didn't think I'm yours, but I was gonna show it to them because I was trying to show them that miracles do happen. Yeah. Yeah, it was my birthday.

[Ann Emerson]

It's so hard to describe unless you've been following Lori a lot for any of our viewers or listeners, or hearing this, you know, kind of interaction for the first time. She. This is. This is part of her mo, isn't it?

[Lauren Matthias]

Absolutely. The. The blonde cheerleader, giggly. We have seen her in Body Cam manipulate police officers with this voice. Right. We have seen her manipulate her friends, her husband, her own daughter. And this is her mo. This is what she does. She giggles, she she bats her eyelashes, she smiles, she flirts. Of course, it takes on a whole new meaning when this beautiful once cheerleader who was, you know, Mrs. Texas at one point, is now in a jail cell behind bars, aging like we all do, not looking like she once did, and yet still using that same voice. I think the contrast is. Is a big thing for me, seeing that moment. And then again, when you take off that mask, that literal kind of mask that she wore of just a beauty queen and you see her for who she really is, and you hear that same voice again, I think there's this moment of, like, wow, like, again, for me, as someone who's been following this case for so long and her for so long, is this really who she is, or does she think this shtick is still gonna work?

[Ann Emerson]

It's so hard to believe that she still believes her own story on this, you know, it is, because she's now facing these multiple, you know, sentences to say it behind bars for the way beyond the rest of her life, you know, yet she still. She still sticks to this. It works for her for whatever reason. And this is. This is really interesting. Is it going to. Will these kind of videos play a role? Could they play a role in an appeal attempt by her as she. As she goes up for an appeal? Does this play into her competency?

[Dr. John Matthias]

I don't. I don't think. I mean, it depends on how you assess competency, I guess. I mean, there's clearly a sense in which she's divorced from reality. Does she understand what she did and does? Right. Does she understand what happens in a courtroom? I mean, most of the people that assess this agreed that she did, that she was competent. So, I mean, it's. It's complicated, I guess. If you. If your delusions are so severe that you're completely divorced from reality and you have no understanding of the world and how it works at all, then that could be problematic. I mean, that might be some grounds for appeal, but, I mean, the. The courts, I think, looked at that

[Ann Emerson]

pretty closely about whether or not she was mentally competent to be standing trial.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Exactly. There were a number of people that I believe that assessed that, and they deemed her to be competent. And it was a question that the courts considered a lot. So presumably, I. I don't think it would play a major role, but, I mean, it could.

[Lauren Matthias]

Let's remember that this is a woman who defended herself for two trials in Arizona. Let's remember that she's competent. And I think that's where sometimes a lot of us have a hard time wrapping our brain around this too, that, that she's delusional and might have this belief system that we have a hard time believing that it's real. And at the same time she's absolutely competent. She knew where she was in that courtroom when she was defending herself. She knew what she was doing. She knew she wanted to convince the jury that she was innocent of her crimes. She thought she could. That's delusional. But still she knew where she was, she knew what she was doing, she knew who she was, she knew why she was there, even though she disagreed and thought that she could convince the jury that she was innocent. Another thing that John says that I think is really kind of important when it comes to this belief system and doubling down because you think, you know, once she's like, you know, now serving life in prison that maybe she would like sort of look at herself in her little tiny cell mirror with, you know, little mirror that she has and, and maybe take some accountability and, and stop with the appeals and knock it off and you know, settle into life in prison. And I think with Lori, one thing that John has kind of taught me through this process is if that actually she is going to double down, she's going to feel more justified. Because it's easier for a woman who is a mother who's now been convicted of killing her two beautiful children, Tyler Ryan and JJ Valo and her husband and Tammy Dut to feel justified and that her belief system is right than to face the fact that she did that. Right. John, you've told me a lot about that. Like it's easier for people to say, you know, angels are flying overhead and giving me toothpaste than it is for her to say, you know what, maybe I, I am guilty of my children losing their lives. Right, John? Like it's kind of.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Yeah, there's it for her. Well, a couple things. Number one, this is someone who utterly lacks the capacity for self reflection. So I would say in almost all my work that criminals, to a large extent, we call it mentalization. Psychologists refer to as mentalization or metacognition. It's, it's this inability to step back and reflect on your behaviors and to reflect on yourself. Right. We have to have most normal human beings to function well, need so have to have some capacity to evaluate themselves and to self. Engage in some type of self reflection. She lacks that capacity completely.

[Ann Emerson]

There's no worse.

[Dr. John Matthias]

In the absence of that, she's not going to learn from experience. Right. She's not going to learn from what she's gone through. And that, I think that'll, because of that, that creates a situation where she's double, she doubles down on her belief system. As you said, Lauren, like she, for her to give up these beliefs would, would mean that she would pay an incredibly high price in terms of coming to terms with the fact that did she participated in the murder of her children.

[Lauren Matthias]

So as Anne just said, no remorse. Does she have any remorse?

[Dr. John Matthias]

Yeah, exactly. And that remorse, remorse requires some capacity for self reflection and she doesn't have it.

[Ann Emerson]

Can I ask, like as from a pro, from a profile of her, would you, is it, is it the narcissistic part of that personality that that creates a, an opportunity for her not to have remorse? Is that what it is? Or is it all of it? When you kind of do your profile on her, what is it that, where are those, those boxes that you're sort of checking off saying, yep, we got that there kind of thing?

[Dr. John Matthias]

Clearly it seems like this is, I've used the term solipsistic to describe her, which is essentially someone who's so self absorbed that they exist in their own world and they, they have no capacity to understand other people's minds. So if we're, that's another. So human beings, as I said earlier, human beings have this general theory of other people and other minds, right? And if you lack that capacity, you're gonna have a much more difficult time understanding the world and developing healthy relationships and even trying to understand the consequences of harming other people or murder. Right. And so in that sense, I think, you know, narcissism was is probably a useful term, but I would describe, I would describe it more as just this utterly self absorbed, you know, solipsistic worldview where she just can't get outside of herself, she can't self reflect, she can't understand other people's pain, she can't understand other people's behaviors or other people's views.

[Lauren Matthias]

Like how she would look at that, that prison guard and say, well, it's a miracle, right? Like as if that fellow, you know, would understand. Oh yeah, okay, I get it. You know, just not even to understand that someone else's view would be completely different than your own. And another thing John and I have talked a lot about when it comes to Lori, I'll just throw out too is openness to experience, which I think goes along with that self reflection and solemn system is there's just this absolute lack of openness to experience. Where can you explain that, John? A little bit, Chad Daybell Also too lacking openness to experience.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Yeah, there's a ton of research showing that there, there's five fundamental personality traits. It's called the big five personality traits. And one of those is openness to experience. And I, so I, I usually give an assessment called the neo, which looks at the big five and there's some research tying in the lack of openness to experience to potential criminality. So. Okay, yeah, it's, it goes with, it goes with everything we talked about. It's this close mindedness, this inability to really look at new information and evaluate it and somehow learn from that and integrate it. And I mean, again, I haven't tested her, so I don't know where she stands on that particular personality trait, but I mean, seems like somebody could hypothesize that she's not high on that trait.

[Lauren Matthias]

I will never forget sitting in, watching the verdict come down in Arizona and realizing that she really thought that she would be found innocent after she defended herself, while the rest of the world is looking at this, going like, oh my gosh, right?

[Ann Emerson]

I can't believe this is such a mess.

[Lauren Matthias]

This is such a mess. The evidence is so obvious. I can't believe she's doing this. We're just watching, you know, like what's going to happen next. And she really thought after all of that, I, you know, that the, the jury would see her side. I think that goes along with what John is saying. This lack of self reflection with the previous diagnosis of delusional disorder, with this belief system that she's doubling down in this solemn cystic, not being able to see that the jury is not going to buy this. I think that all sort of goes along with what John is saying is that moment of she thought the jury, her third trial representing herself, she still thought they'd find her innocent.

[Jury Foreperson]

We, the jury, duly empaneled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oath, do find the defendant Lori Dayval as to the crime of count one, conspiracy to commit first degree murder occurring on or about July 11, 2019, guilty.

[Lauren Matthias]

And I mean, that's all you need to know about Lori Valo. Like she, she really, she really does believe this and she really does believe that people can see things her way and doesn't understand that they can't, even when it comes to toothpaste, showing up in herself something as simple as toothpaste. And she's like, what? You know, the prisoner, why'd you do this? Well, you know, it's a miracle. Like, oh, okay, Lori, okay.

[Ann Emerson]

I'm so Glad that you guys could come on with me today because I. This, that was really where I wanted to get to, especially since you had spent so much time working on this case and looking at, at Lori's. All of the antics that we've seen over the years of how she's tried to handle these, these murder charges and, and her relationships with, you know, even how she talks to the judge and how she explains, expects things. You know, one thing, coming into this case last year and watching it, I couldn't believe that she was for real. Like, I, I couldn't believe that she was believing her own stuff. But as you said, like, she wouldn't have known that this body cam video would get out there. Like, this was just her way of explaining to him, like, that's a miracle. It's my birthday. You know, I think this really is going to help us understand, if we get into these appeals, how, how the lawyers and the judges have to understand it and, and evaluate her as far as her ability to understand what's going on.

[Lauren Matthias]

Absolutely. This was not a performance. This is who Lori Valow Daybell is.

[Dr. John Matthias]

And there's another piece to this, too, which we, we didn't cover in depth today, but this issue of accepting contraband. Right. Like, it starts with saying you had a birthday card, you had Eminem's. Right. These, you had, well, I guess not toothpaste that apparently just showed up. But these, these items were brought to her and she accepts them. Right. And I can tell you from going into jails and prisons that I have to, if I'm going to bring anything into an interview room with the, with an inmate, I have to disclose everything I'm going to take in there. And I have to get, oftentimes I'll have to get permission from the, the person in charge of the prison or the jail or, you know, I mean, some of the jails, they, they know me well, so they trust that I'm not going to try to smuggle anything in and give it to an inmate. But this stuff is, is very restricted in terms of what can be brought in and what can be given away. Right.

[Ann Emerson]

And, and, oh, yeah, you're. You're taking everything off. Like you're. You walking into the prison. Absolutely, you are. You are absolutely going in there. The last thing you want to do is upset, you know, the officers in there with stuff that you're carrying in now. They can't have any of that. Absolutely. I mean, you could have like, Eminem's, like, spike something. I mean, you don't know what's in there.

[Dr. John Matthias]

And here's my point, right? Like, because I, I know what I have to go through. You know, if I want to bring in a digital recording advice, which I do at times because I need to record certain assessments I'm giving, I have to give permission two weeks in advance or maybe a month in advance, right. And if I break any of those rules, by the way, my privileges will be suspended. And so there's something, here's my point. There's something. There's a very antisocial quality about knowing the rules and willingly and knowingly breaking them.

[Lauren Matthias]

For Laurie.

[Dr. John Matthias]

It's a subtle thing, right. But I don't have the gall to go into a jail and try to bring something in there to give to an inmate. I'm not going to bring M and Ms. To an inmate so that I make them happier, so that they're more, that they're. They disclose more. Right. I know that's breaking the rules. There's something very antisocial. There's some, there's about Laurie taking this contraband knowing she's breaking the rules. She clearly knows that.

[Lori Valo Daybell]

That.

[Dr. John Matthias]

And there's also this, this tremendous sense of entitlement. Not only does she not care about breaking the rules, but she feels entitled. Right. She's like, I can take the M and Ms. Because I'm Lori Dade though, right? Like I, well, it's her birthday. Deserve this.

[Lauren Matthias]

It's her birthday present.

[Ann Emerson]

Exactly.

[Dr. John Matthias]

It's a present.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, I really appreciate you guys today coming on. I, I love talking to you both. So interesting and so well informed, especially on. And I really look forward to the next time we can get together and talk about some of these cases we're working on. I guess we, we will see what happens with these oral arguments that are going to be coming up on, on the case. It'll. I was surprised that they were going. I was surprised that they were going to hear oral arguments on this, but obviously they need to. To close the door on it.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah, no, I was too. I was too. It'll be interesting to, to watch this. So.

[Dr. John Matthias]

Yeah.

[Lauren Matthias]

Yeah.

[Ann Emerson]

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Drop a comment below. I want to hear what you think about Lori Valo. Debel, Is this all an act? Is she doing this for her appeal or does she really believe that her toothpaste was a miracle? I want to hear what you think. Be sure to like and subscribe to Crimly Obsessed. And if you can leave us a five star review. It goes a long way to help others find our podcast.