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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone, I'm Ann Emerson and this is crimley obsessed Alec Murdoch has a new judge for his upcoming double murder retrial. Who is the Honorable Deborah McCaslin. She even has a connection to Murdoch's defense attorney, Dick Harpoutlian. I dug into her past and there are things that you need to know about McCaslin. There's a lot more to her than just a gavel in a robe. Wait until I tell you about her rise to the top. She didn't even go to college till she was 27.
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B
No one handed her anything.
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A
And she's got a lot to live up to. Right? We all remember Judge Clifton Newman from the first, first trial. Everybody loved him, especially when he let Murdoch have it. After the guilty verdict, you have to
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B
see Paul and Maggie during the night time when you're attempting to go to sleep. I'm sure they come and visit you and reflect on the last time they looked you in the eyes.
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A
How will McCaslin rule over season two of the Murdoch saga? Where is it going to be and when does it kick off?
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B
I think she'll be quite different than
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A
Judge Newman and so is this murder trial. Think about it. This time she could be ruling over a death penalty case. The state says it's all on the table for the murders of Alex wife Maggie and son Paul. What has McCasland signed up for?
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B
She's going to be well known. Really? Everywhere.
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A
Everywhere on the planet. Be sure to like subscribe and turn on your notifications for all of our Murdoch coverage. And as Judge Newman would say, bring in the jury foreign. Thank you, Charlie, for joining me. I am excited to talk to you about this new judge for the Murdoch trial.
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B
Yeah, my pleasure. It's a, I think an interesting choice by the Chief Justice. She has a really good reputation for being a judge and I've appeared before her a couple of times. My, my description of her would be I just think she's got know you come across some people and they're just good to be around and you feel better having been around them. She has this sort of winning personality even, even if she's not ruling for you. And I think that's going to shine through this trial. I think people are going to come to know her. I don't know what nicknames he's going to get. There's going to be one, I think from the, those out there in the, in the social media world, but I think it's going to be a positive one. And I do think I look for Chief Justice Thought of this, but, you know, female judge who, so accomplished here and of all the people that he could have picked, he picked her. He had to have known of her background. I'm assuming that word got out to him or he maybe has some personal experience with her, how she's really come up through the ranks.
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A
You knew her as a judge. You got, you got in front of her as a judge. Tell me, tell me what that was like so we can kind of understand what she's like in a courtroom.
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B
I think she'll be quite different than Judge Newman. She has a, I don't describe it other than she has a very direct but winning personality. And what did strike me, and I've seen this in other comments about her, is that she's just really hard working, she moves things along. Everything was on time. Let's get going. Let's. We have all these cases to handle and I, I think what we're going to find in the, in the, in the retrial is that the trains will run on time, not that they didn't run on time with Judge Newman because he was very hard working as well. And I do think that her background will maybe shine forth quite differently than Judge Newman in that she evidently, you know, pulled herself up by her bootstraps.
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A
Do you know, off the top of your head, if she has overseen any of these capital murder cases?
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B
I don't know. I don't know.
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A
I have not seen anything in my literature yet, but I can do a little bit more digging. What I've seen is that she has had murder cases and she's thrown the book at them. Still not death penalty, but she's put them in, in life in prison. And she hasn't been afraid to do that as a judge.
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B
Yeah. I think her sentencing seems to be appropriate for the criminal activity before her. She does. Let's put it this way. She doesn't have a reputation as being soft on crime. Not at all.
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A
No.
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B
That should be really fair and balanced with the Murdoch trial. I really do think that.
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A
Does she have any sway at all over whether or not this becomes a death penalty case?
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B
No sway.
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A
No sway.
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B
Yeah. It's up to the state of South Carolina right now. The person that decides that is the Attorney General of South Carolina. And that will change hands in, in January.
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A
Going back to Deborah McCaslin's past, I mean, one thing that I want to talk about is that she comes from very humble beginnings, apparently work full time
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B
while she went to college and paid for herself. Yeah, that's what I saw and same for law school, apparently. She apparently worked part time then and paid for law school herself. That's, you know, quite remarkable.
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A
I mean, Charlie, she didn't even start college if I'm. If my math is right. I mean, basically, she's one of six kids. She explained that she was financially strapped a little bit, that she got out of a. What appeared to be a bad marriage due to. Due to alcohol. So she has this, like, delayed beginning in life. And then she didn't even go to college till she was 27.
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B
Oh, yeah, very impressive. And I think, you know, looking at her again, that document that you're referencing, she apparently worked full time at the U.S. attorney's office here in downtown Charleston, I'm assuming as paralegal or legal secretary, then going to college at the same time. Really the American dream, right? I mean, she starts off with humble beginnings. She wants to become a lawyer. She accomplishes that. She does it really through grit and hard work. Of course, people helped her on the way. And then once she becomes a lawyer, through her hard work and accomplishments and her diligence and her success, she now, she becomes a circuit judge. And now the Chief justice of the South Carolina Supreme Court, of all the great judges we have in the state handpicks her for the most important trial, I would argue, in the history of South Carolina. I can't imagine one that. That. That comes anywhere near this, really. Certainly not in my lifetime. So it's quite an honor that she's been. That has been bestowed upon her. I think she will rise to the occasion. I really do. I think we're going to be really impressed with her, as we've been impressed, had been impressed with Judge Newman.
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A
You look at her background, and you look at the background of the Murdoch family and the entitlement and the issues that we had with Al Murdoch and that sense of entitlement, does that in some way play a role in the way she looks at this case? Or is that. Is that. Am I not giving her enough credit?
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B
Well, that's, I think, another fair point. But of course, you know, having had that first marriage that apparently the divorce was for habitual drunkenness was the ground. So I think she's sensitive to addiction issues. But again, I. I go back to just the fact that she's out of Lexington county as a circuit judge, that gets my attention. Maybe I'm being a bit too stereotypical here, but for her to have been a judge there for so long and get reelected, I've just got to think that the prosecution there has been comfortable with what she's done as a circuit judge. So here she's facing somebody accused of a double murder and the horrible crime that he's accused of. I've got to think that we're going to see a judge that's going to apply the rules rigorously. But having sat through that trial, I know you did as well, for six weeks. There's so much evidence, this defendant, that if I'm the state, I'm. I'm confident. I'm confident that I can once again convict this defendant, given a fair trial that one would expect from. From Judge McCaslin of. Of the double murder. I know there's some trepidation perhaps, that would. Might exist on behalf of the state. Evidently, it's come out that she actually rented office space from the defense guard, Dick Harpoutlian, years ago.
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A
And so tell me right there, like, when you hear that she rented. So we now have heard that she rented office space from Dick Harpoutlian. That's what was reported in the Post in Korea newspaper down in Charleston. Um, is that a problem? And that she saw him as a mentor. Is that a problem?
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B
Well, what struck me about it just upon first blush was that I'm assuming that she had a conversation with the chief justice about that relationship, and they discussed it and thought that. That there would be no bias or favoritism coming for her, it wouldn't be a problem, and that she could preside over. Over this trial.
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A
Well, Charlie, I want to break it down a little bit more and just kind of go into it a little bit more now that we've got this, you know, this article in front of us. And one thing that we were looking at, and I'm gonna quote just paraphrasing this, that she said, I was very fortunate as a young lawyer because I got to work with three different lawyers that I think really made an impression in my life. Harpoutlian made an impression, and I have to kind of smile. I was with him and helped do the video poker case. I can tell you he's a great trial lawyer.
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B
Doesn't look like they're going to move to Recuser, not that they should. So I think everyone is just accepting the fact that she's got this previous relationship. Of course, it is a small state, and it does appear that her background is. Has had been primarily criminal defense, which would also, you would think, would maybe worry the state a bit. But I will say this. She's been elected twice as a circuit judge out of Lexington County. And for those that don't know this. Lexington county is really one of the most conservative counties in all of South Carolina. So for her to have been elected twice, apparently without opposition the second time, that must mean that her sentences in Lexington county, from the police and the state's perspective, were fair and balanced, that they had no complaints with her. Otherwise, I have to think that she would have faced some opposition. So she's what I would call a known quantity. I don't know the qualities as well as one would in Lexington, of course, but it does appear to me that she's going to be good for both the state and the defense. That's my thinking. Because again, I don't see any objections in her background or anyone coming forward saying, oh, she's soft on crime, we can't have her in the Murdoch trial, or she's done X, Y and Z in these different cases. She does appear to be just a fair, a very fair judge. And that I have a limited experience with her, but that had been my experience.
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A
In your. When you hear that, do you think public opinion could be like, you think he's a great trial lawyer, you're smart. You know, she obviously has a warm relationship with him as a colleague. Is that a problem in the court of public opinion?
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B
Fair question. Now, she herself has, has said that she doesn't really look at social media, which may be a very good thing during the Murdoch trial because we know it's going to light up the, whatever social media that one might use. It's going to be throughout, throughout that, that site or whatever site one one uses. But I've got to think again, just given the experience that I had and her general reputation that she is well past that, that even though she does have these previous relationships, that if it calls for a ruling against the defense, she will do so. And if it calls for a ruling the other way, she'll, she will do so. I, I have every confidence that she'll be a fair and balanced trial judge.
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A
As you said, she said, I'm not a big fan of social media and rarely look at it. In fact, she was only using LinkedIn when, when she made that comment and it has not affected me in my judicial capacity. How important is that these days?
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B
I think to her great credit, staying away from it because it can be addicting. And also in this type of a case, I have to think that the number of comments made about her are going to be in the perhaps hundreds of thousands by now. And for her not to read those, those comments, I think will serve her well during this trial. And of course, as you know, once it, once it gets going, that circus will start. Right. The media circus and the amount of information that's out there, just keeping her head down and just looking at the law and making the appropriate rulings and keeping the trains running on time, I think that'll be a real accomplishment.
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A
And I mean, as far as her ability to keep. I mean, she's kept a very low profile as far as on social media, as we've talked about, but to keep her private life private, I mean, I know we dug into a little bit into Judge Newman's life. That was heartbreaking. Some of the things that were going on in his life. Right. That he had lost his son and we were all kind of grieving with him as he was going through these personal tragedies. Right. How is she going to handle that?
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B
I think very well. The fact that she's not on social media much, I think is going to be a real, real asset or during this trial.
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A
I do, you know, I do have a question for you, Charlie. Like, when you're talking about her personality, which I think is so important in this part of it, do you feel like she will still be, like, stern with them or no nonsense on some things, how do you see that playing out? Like doing it with a smile on her face kind of?
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B
Yeah, that's a good, That's a really good point. I think, I think, I think the rulings are going to be, you might call them stern, but they'll be very straightforward. We got to do it this way, but I think she rules. That's another good way to put it. She's going to do that with a smile on her face. And I think the tone in the courtroom and the demeanor and the. It'll be really good. I think she'll. She'll emulate Judge Newman in that regard. I think he had a really good courtroom presence, and I think she'll have the same. Put in that image here somebody that is accomplished on her own from the school of really hard knocks. No one handed her anything. And on her own, she has just done so well. And I think we're all going to be really proud of how she's going to conduct this trial. I don't think we're going to be disappointed at all.
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A
Well, one thing I was wondering about is, like, you remember all the antics that we saw on both sides to some degree, but I specifically remember Dick Harpoutlian getting up there and waving the gun towards, you know, the, the, the courtroom, you know, trying to show this or that. Is she going to put up with any of that? I mean, it's. Dick, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's her mentor. It's somebody that she has publicly said that she looks up to. When those kind of antics start, what do you think? I mean, they happen so quickly. What can you do?
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B
But, yeah, sometimes they do happen so quickly. But I think if the state objects and it's a grounded objection, a fair objection, I think she'll show rule in the state's favor. So it's a lot on her. Right. I think in a lot of ways, the fact that she's willing to take this assignment, I think speaks really highly of her, because I'm sure she was given the option of not taking it. But I think she understands the importance of having a good, fair trial judge, and I do think she fits that description. And I do think that she's going to do a really good job here. But there will be challenges, and we'll just have to see how it goes. But I think the litigants are going to respect her. It's a, as you know, a very contentious matter, and they're going to be really, really emotional moments here during the trial, no question. But I think you'll see that she's going to have a firm handle on the courtroom, and that will have really no problems. I think the decorum is going to be really high. But I also do think that her work ethics as such, I think we're going. It may take six weeks, it may take longer, may take shorter, but I think we're going to be very impressed with her ability to keep things moving along. Let's hear the testimony, let's get right to it, and let's get this case to the jury. If that's in fact, what she eventually decided.
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A
Give me your best Vegas bet on when this is where it's going to be and when it's going to start. Are you ready to do that?
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B
No. Well, I can. I'm just talking about pure speculation. Right. But my, my speculation would be that we're going to start off in Calden. The state's going to want it. Calden, the defense is going to want to move it. And unless they've got a very firm reason for moving it, she's going to keep it there and it'll be in, in, in the early part of, of the spring. But having said that, I'm probably completely wrong, because this is the Murdoch case, after all. Right?
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A
Right. And we have to. They have to, like, throw everything back up in the air. Exactly. Hopefully we're, we're shedding some light on who she is as a person because I think it's going to be so important. We know after sitting in that courtroom for six weeks and who the judges made a massive impression on us.
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B
I think that the, the choice has something to do with wanting to send a message that here in South Carolina that we have judges that, that are as good as she is and that have on their own, their own accomplishments, that she has, has demonstrated her unique abilities to, to rise to the top. And I think that's what we're going to see. And I think after the trial's over with, I've got to think there's going to be many accolades coming her way. She's going to be well known, really? Everywhere.
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A
Everywhere on the planet. Yeah, we're going to. They're going to know how to spell McCaslin by the end of this for sure.
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B
Just knowing her personally, just. Again, I don't know her well, but having been around a little bit, I think she, she won't let that go to her head. And I think we're going to see somebody that will make. Make us all proud.
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A
Drop a comment below and tell me what surprised you the Most about Judge McCaslin. How will her background help her navigate this complex legal case? And be sure to like and subscribe to Criminally Obsessed. I don't want you to miss any of our coverage.